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Kreatures Of Habit Podcast
You’re Eating Meat Wrong: The Truth About Where It Comes From with Robby Sansom | Kreatures of Habit
01:05:45
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- [00:00]
A
People want to nuzzle up to the bar, nuzzle up to the table with a big, beautiful steak, a big, fat, juicy, delicious hamburger, a pork chop. In the last 200 years, human beings have completely lost touch with where these things come from and how they have made, how their journey to the table.
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B
And we all have this uneasy relationship with our own mortality. So facing it in our food is too difficult and oftentimes too inconvenient. But it would have been absolutely primary, necessary, and an everyday occurrence to all of our ancestors. You know, not only is, is life fragile, but it takes life to beget life, and that anything that's on your plate, you should have reverence for. And I think the key message was that you're always behind the trigger. It doesn't matter if you got it from a restaurant or from a grocery store or from a local farmer or butcher, or you went and hunted it for yourself. You are complicit in whatever happened prior to your interaction with that animal. At Epic and again at Force of Nature, we put pictures of the animals on the package. We were told we could never do that. Said people didn't want to see it. No, people don't want to see the animal of what they're going to eat on the package. It's like they actually do. They may not even know it, but they do and they need to, and it's important. An entrepreneur straight out of New York
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A
City, Michael Chernow, was cracking. So meat is your thing right now.
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B
That's been my thing for a long time, but it's definitely my thing.
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A
Talk to us about. So I, I, you know, grass fed, grass finished meat is not news, right? It's not, it's not news anymore. And I think for a long period of time, that was like the difference between a grass finished beef or a grain finished beef. People weren't really able to tell the difference. Can you just sort of walk the audience here through the difference between
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B
meat
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A
grown the right way and potentially the less effective way?
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B
Yeah, well, it's a great question, I think. And, and unfortunately there, it's a complicated question because you said meat.
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A
I should have said grown beef. Right, beef. And, and, and, and I know that, that at Force of Nature, it's, it's more than, it's more than just beef. But I've, I've gotten, I become a deeply passionate hunter. Hunting has become, I'm just so passionate about the whole entire experience, you know, and for me, the ability to be able to harvest 150 pounds of venison every end of November, you know, through December is incredible to be able to have that, that, that in my house for my family. But, but it's way more than that. Right. And so I understand that that protein, animal protein that we put into our body is way more than just something that tastes good.
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B
For sure. For sure. And so the question still about beef grass fed versus something more commoditized and conventional. And it depends where you are in the world because for in much of the world, grass fed is the standard because you have land and you have livestock or, or beef animals. And the shortest point or path between two points is, you know, let the animals live on the land and eat the diet they evolved to eat and then grow to consumption. And there's, you know, a balance and you continue to manage your, your herd in that, in that manner. In the US we figured out that we could stack gains faster and control and commoditize the industry such that we have sort of changed the nature of how the animals live, what the end product is, and ultimately the consumer's relationship. So in the western model that we sort of were the, were the pioneers in and that much of the world has begun to adopt, although again, even we've seen recently where, you know, some of our ally countries in Europe are hesitant to want American beef. It's for these reasons, you know, and the life cycle of a beef animal, a cow or steerable, you know, they're raised in a cow calf operation, or I should say they're born. And then a farmer or rancher might continue to house that animal or they might sell it to somebody that will stock that animal for some period of time. In the most conventional system, they're pretty early on, they're going to a feedlot, you know, and that's where if you drive through west Texas or you drive through some places in Oklahoma or certain parts of the world, you can go for miles and miles all in and just see thousands or millions of head of animals standing shoulder to shoulder in no way resembling a natural environment or a native system. They're clearly sick and sedentary animals. They must be emotionally and psychologically and spiritually depressed. They, they don't move. They're standing in their own filth and waste. 80% of antibiotics in the country tend to go into these systems to promote both growth and also in order to promote life in an environment that might otherwise be incompatible with life.
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A
Wait, 80% of all antibiotics goes into
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B
these systems used in the United States, goes into the animal agriculture.
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A
Wow.
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B
That is, that is, it's A growth promotant. But also, again, when you have biology, living life in these awful, horrible environments, it also helps, you know, ensure that they're able to sustain themselves where otherwise, you know, your immune system might. I mean, think about it. They're all genetically similar. They're all incredibly confined. There's no ability to evade their own waste very effectively. They're not moving, they're not vibrant, they're not getting the diet that they would have evolved. You know, it's just. It's the perfect condition for, you know, pathogenic challenge. And so something has to intervene. In any case, they're, you know, typically fed an incredible amount of grain or feedstock. Could be corn, could be soy, could be a variety of different things that we've, you know, found can cause them to grow really fast and put on a lot of intermuscular fat. And you or I, we would call that a. A form of disease. And animals, we call it a form of marbling. You know, marbling. It's how you get more premium animals, largely only in the United States, that isn't consistent across the world. Japan, Italy, Ireland, South America. You know, many parts of the world look for entirely different attributes. We here look for fat. So we found a way to make animals get really big, really fat, really fast by giving them things they didn't necessarily evolve to eat. And again, you are what you eat. And so, you know, they are upcycling or the composition of their. The muscle that we will consume is made up of the very limited, very. It may have the right macro and micro profiles, and in some cases, or at least the supplementation will give them much of the micros, but it's missing so much of the depth and richness that you had mentioned going hunting that you might get in a wild animal that was allowed to follow its instincts. And it's. And, you know, its own wisdom to ensure that it's getting a variety of foods in order to, you know, ensure that it has exactly what it needs to thrive. And we've seen that in many, many studies, the nutritional composition is entirely different when something is raised in a pasture in a more natural and healthy environment than in one of these feedlot systems. And so you can imagine, you know, in juxtaposition to that where in the ideal state, because I'm not going to say grass fed, because grass fed can be commodified. And there's. There's a whole misleading can of worms there where, you know, you still have grass feedlots, you still have large companies marketing product as grass fed, that does not deliver on the ideals that, that we have as a company at Force of Nature or that I think consumers expect and desire. But and in the, in the most common or preferred state would be those cow calf operations that have a calf, maybe somebody stocks that it's ranging on pasture land, managing that land or being managed on that land consistent with how the largest herd of herd of megafauna since the last ice age, the American bison would have been managed. Rotation, rotating around across those pastures, intensely grazing intensely, impacting it, dropping fertilizer, making sure that the symbiotic relationship between keystone species and plant based fauna are existing and triggering, doing this in a way that is nurturing and fueling the energy cycle, the water cycle, the carbon cycle, and improving the land as it does that while also improving the health and wellness of the animal. And eventually it will go to a finishing operation who in a grass, you know, in a truly grass finished operation as you noted, and a pasture raised system should be raising it largely, you know, in a similar way. The challenge is that can take a little bit longer, that weight gain can be a little bit less and the life cycle can take a little bit longer. And so you end up with a slightly more expensive animal and oftentimes less marbling, but you end up with a much healthier animal. You end up with a much healthier land base, you end up with a much healthier community of food producers, the farmers and ranchers who can, who can actually afford to continue to maintain their legacy.
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A
Just real quick, just for, just curious, the maturation of a feedlot animal in comparison to a pasture raised animal to from the beginning to the end, what it, what, what does that look like
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B
time wise typically a you know, in a feedlot you could probably see an animal getting slaughtered as early as the, I'm maybe 18 months. I mean that's pretty early. And in the US the animals don't usually live much longer. And if they're being raised for consumption, there's a variety of different pathways an animal might go to get. Some are simply raised to be consumed, some are raised to be bred, some are raised to breed, some are raised for dairy and eventually become food. Yeah, you're looking at probably 18 to, to less than 20, maybe 24 months for a grain finished animal and you know, probably easily six to eight months longer for a grass fed animal. And, and the end, end body weight will be several hundred pounds heavier on the grain finished animal. What's interesting, there's this, you know, not to take us down A rabbit hole. But, you know, popular. People are now realizing, hey, beef is getting more expensive. The national herd is down to a level that it hasn't been in a generation. The number of animals we have is less than it's been. And in your or my lifetime, by a long shot, how are we managing to. To. To feed people besides importing, which. Which is an important part of the. The. The way that we get food in the United States. But the average weight of a cow in the United States at slaughter or a prime animal at slaughter has gone up 1% a year each year for the last 70 years. So despite having fewer animals right now, we're still getting the same poundage of meat that we did.
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A
They're just bigger.
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B
You know, 60 years ago, they're just way bigger. We also have a bigger population, and demand is rising. So we now have this imbalance between supply and demand, driving up price. But, like, this is where, you know, proud American breed, red, white and blue, love it. But this is where sometimes we go wrong and we pursue cheapness. We trade off values, and when we pursue making money, we focus on, hey, how do I get more meat? At a lower input cost, whatever it takes. And so the game, the goal has been make them bigger and fatter, not necessarily make them healthier or better.
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A
Better for you.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And at Force of Nature, I know that you guys are working with regenerator farms. I always struggle with that word. Regenerative. Right, Regenerative.
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B
Like, think of regenerate.
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A
Regenerate.
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B
Regenerative.
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Regenerative farms, which, you know, I. The documentary that really just opened my eyes up was. I think it was called, like, Small Big Farm or.
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B
Oh, the. The Biggest Little Farm.
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A
Biggest Little Farm. My wife and I watched that and essentially both committed after that to, like, really only buy our food from regenerative. Regenerative farms. We. We are. We are blessed that we live in a region of New York where, you know, we. We. We live right down the road from the. The. The largest biodynamic farm in the country, I think, or like, certainly on the East Coast. And so, like, they take that very, very, very seriously almost to, like, a mystical kind of serious way. So we're really lucky to be able to get the vast majority of our produce, if not from our own garden. From there. From there. But, you know, it's so. It's. It's like you could.
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B
You.
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A
You could taste the difference in. And if you really pay attention, you don't need to have like a. A hypersensitive palate. To taste the difference between a like, you know, American made piece of beef today and like something that's probably coming off of one of the farms that, that you, that you partner with. And the interesting thing is, it's sad to say, but most people will say the grain finished beef tastes better. You know, it tastes better. And in my opinion, I just, I wholeheartedly disagree. I don't believe that to be true. I think that that is, you know, we've been, we've been sort of groomed and cultivated to, to have these palates that need to have this like explosion of flavor every single time we take a bite of something. Right, but what was the sort of for, I'm just curious the impetus for you to step into this world and start. For force of nature.
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B
We went down the path of just trying to understand the relationship between food and land and health and wellness in a prior company. And that took us down the rabbit hole of regenerative agriculture. It was a company called Epic. And we sold bars and snacks based on animals and meat. And you know, pretty quickly had a set of, we had a set of values that were like, we want food that's good for humans. And we also want to make sure that the welfare of animals is, is a primary consideration and a priority. And we want to make sure that, you know, the, at the time the meat was under attack, you know, so it was, it was also about like how terrible it was for the land. So we wanted to do something that had a positive impact on the land. You know, contrary to all of the challenges that were being cast at the industry, we wanted to bring solutions and so be better for the land, better for the consumer, better for the animal, better for the farmer and so on. And you know, that, that, that company had, had a, had a really great story and a really great success rate, but it was snacks. And the reality is the, you know, core meat industry, the meat that you buy that you put on your plate, whether it be at dinner time or lunchtime or breakfast time, is massive. I mean it's, it's a, it's a multi hundred billion dollar industry. There's billions of pounds of, of animals being, being sold in the United states. There's almost 50 trips a year to the grocery store to buy meat. For the average consumer, there's 98% household penetration of meat consumption. So if you really want to change the system to be better and to make sure that those attacks against meat are not the future and are invalidated and become a thing of the past and that the scale and the, and the preponderance of meat produced is one being done in alignment with not just our values, but the values I see and hear in most consumers. And you see it in the, in the purchase data where these are the fast, this is the fastest growing category and you know, more commoditized and conventional meat is, is somewhat stagnant and decline in some extent. And so, you know, we took that mission and we took that set of values and we brought it into this industry where we said, hey, we can, we can take our mission from ounces to pounds and we can work directly with more farmers and, and reach more consumers for more, you know, meal occasions of the day across more proteins and we can get in and we can get involved with creating our own protocols for raising conditions and try to work on, you know, feed rations as we get into monogastrics and you know, really earn a seat at the table to, to have the right to have not just a voice, but one that, you know, people will listen to and that others will be inspired by and help continue to influence more change.
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A
Interrupting this episode to share with you that creatures of habit finally launched our protein bar. It's called the Daily Bar. It's made with 20 grams of plant based protein, 3 grams of creatine. Yes, you heard that right. It also has 3 grams of creatine. It is incredibly tasty and clean as a whistle. All clean ingredients. Take this opportunity. Hop over to creaturesofhabit.com that's creaturesofhabit.com with a K and use code K O H P20 at checkout for 20% off your first order. Back to the pod. If I had to ask you, where is force of nature in five years? Do you, do you have a vision for that?
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B
Hopefully it's in more households. You know, you're, you're, you're a hunter. And so one thing that I've said since day one is, you know, I think the best place to get your meat is to hunt it. I think that there is just something true and honest and deeply human that with going out and engaging with an animal and their environment on the land, which theoretically should be your environment too, in the environment and pursuing it in a difficult pursuit and failing repeatedly and struggling and appreciating the abundance that we have when we go to the grocery store around the corner, hopefully succeeding and getting something that's as healthy for you physically, but also appreciating again spiritually, emotionally, the connection that you have, that reverence that you have for that animal, you Won't waste it. You will treasure it. You will share it. You will proudly feed your family with it. The connection that you have to place and food is deeper. And I think that that's a. That's an important sense that we've lost touch with when we've. Again, in the process of commodifying people buy stuff, it's wrapped in cellophane. That's where it comes from. I didn't use it. I throw it in the garbage can. I mean, it's, it's, it's sad, it's senseless, it's wasteful. So I think forming that bond and that relationship and that true, deep connection with not just your food, but the world, the globe, this entity that we are all a part of is truly the best way to improve yourself in so many ways. In addition to how you eat. Second best way would be to either grow agriculture animals yourself or to have somebody nearby that's growing them, somebody local. I don't just mean local is better always, because it's not. There's people whose hands that I've shaked that I wouldn't trust to sell me a bottle of water and. But. But when it's done right, local is definitely better, and done right is the key. And so I think you have to understand what you're looking for and where your values are and find people that align with those. And the folks that are doing it right will usually fall over themselves trying to tell you about it. And sometimes you'll have to try to. Try to break away from them because they'll be so proud of all that they're doing and what it means to them. And that passion is, is so palpable, there's no, there's no hiding it. And so I think, you know, that would be the second plus base, second best place. And then I hope we're the third best. I hope we're working with those sort of farmers and producers all across the country and in some cases internationally, and doing the job for the masses, for the people who don't have access or ability to hunt or who need to go to a grocery store to buy their food or don't have a certain type of protein that they may be looking for a certain type of, of offering and just want somebody that has obsessed over every detail, where the spices were come from, the things that aren't listed on the package, everything behind the scenes that matters. You know, our first core value is feed others as you wish to be fed. I think it's the golden rule of Food. I hope that's where we fall in that hierarchy.
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A
You know, I did a. So I was in the restaurant business for many, many years and trained chef and spent a lot of time in the world of food. I did a TV show pilot about it's gotta be 10 years ago with another chef friend of mine called Reverse Course. And in my opinion, I think anybody who saw it thought it was like a beautiful, beautifully done piece of content. The network that had paid for the pilot decided to pass on it because what we did was we basically,
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we
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A
started this episode at a large dinner table with like 17 people, 16 or 17 people, this beautiful feast of just like, just beautiful, wonderful food right down the center of the table. And everybody was enjoying themselves and eating. And then, you know, you see that for about a minute and a half. And just like the, The. The energy that getting people around a table, around food that they know is good is. Is very, very difficult to reproduce outside of that environment.
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B
Right.
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Like, most people's favorite day to eat in the United States of America is on Thanksgiving. Right.
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B
Sorry to interrupt you, but that energy that, that you're talking about in and of itself is nourishing. It's not just the food.
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A
Yes, 100%. No, you're right.
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B
You're.
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A
That's. That's. That is. That is full fact. Like, I, I. My life in the restaurant business, I craved being able to create environments for people to have that energy, because I, as a byproduct of being around it all the time, also experienced when I saw people enjoying themselves. Right? But so we did this and we had. We made this incredible feast. And then about a minute and a half of that, and then it was like. And it showed the two of us forging all of the food, everything that we put on the plate, we, we, we. We. We took from. From its original source. We had oysters. We dove for oysters. We had Kunikuni pig, porchetta. We went to the Kunikuni pig farm. We picked the pig, I grabbed the pig, we terminated it, we butchered it, and we walked through every single thing. I mean, we foraged for mushrooms in the forest, and we just did all sorts of really, really cool things. And we caught a big blue fish and a number of different species of fish that we caught, and we showed it all. And the network said, we can't show this. We can't show that to people. People don't want to see where their food came from. And I was just like, wow, that's crazy. Like, that's the truth. People Want to nuzzle up to the bar, nuzzle up to the table with a big, beautiful steak, a big, fat, juicy, delicious hamburger, a pork chop, a big piece of whatever. And it's just in the last 200 years, human beings have completely lost touch with where these things come from and how they are made, how their journey to the table.
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B
Absolutely. And to our detriment, because that's a fundamental part of being a human, having that relationship and understanding and appreciating what is involved and what is at stake. We actually have at our home farm, my, my. My co founders, Katie and Taylor, have a ranch separate from force of nature. There's a herd of bison. We have this land out in Fredericksburg. They own the ranch. I have some animals in the herd. We actually just did a roundup last week, and we do field harvests where people can come out and participate. And it's a big deal, you know, and I think it really, you know, we live in a time when people have been conditioned to, to think that way. And that executive isn't necessarily wrong, but I don't think they're right either. I just think it's more about, again, a social conditioning. We haven't had to face that. And we all have this uneasy relationship with our own mortality. So facing it in our food is too difficult and oftentimes too inconvenient. But it would have been absolutely primary, necessary, and an everyday occurrence to all of our, our ancestors. And so we rekindle that connection and reintroduce it. And I think again, like, like with the hunting, it, it forces an awareness and a recognition that, you know, not only is. Is life fragile, but it takes life to beget life. And that anything that's on your plate, you should have reverence for. And I think, you know, in, in the inverse, where you don't, where you just want to eat the steak and not know anything about it, you fail to actually take any accountability for what's going on. You've actually delegated agency for your health, your well being, the impact you have on the world. You are then complicit. You are involved. I wrote a blog a few years ago, it says when we did the first field harvest, how nervous I was and that I'd hunted and killed so many things and always had respect for animals. But for some reason I was really nervous about this and not just because there was going to be all these people and cameras and stuff watching because we were going to get so close to avoid any error, mistake. And I realized it was because we had raised this animal and we cared for it and it was important and it mattered. And I think the key message was that you're always behind the trigger. It doesn't matter if you got it from a restaurant or from a grocery store or from a local farmer or butcher or you went and hunted it for yourself. You are complicit in whatever happened prior to your interaction with that animal. You chose that, you approved it, you signed off on it at the register when you voted with your dollars. And so you have to take ownership and be accountable for the system that you're supporting. And also, I think we're in the age of information where people are realizing that they've been misled and that when they go to the store and they buy things that have claims on them that seem premium, that they, you know, say, hey, you know what? I'm going to do my part, I'm going to do better, I'm going to pay a little bit more for this premium that what they're getting is under delivering on their expectations. And so they're wising up to it. And so I think people are starting to take interest and wanting to re engage in a relationship with their food. And you see that a little bit in the center of the store. You know, our parents generation, everything you went from an hour almost to make a meal now to less than 10 minutes. You went from, you know, buying whole foods and cooking things to buying things that are convenient and, and inexpensive. And that whole center store processed food revolution kind of occurred right preceding and during our, our, our youth. And I think there's been an awakening in the last couple decades of hey, wait a minute. That you know, when we gave them all that authority to make those choices for us, they started cutting corners and again they started trading off value for cheapness. And people are wising up to that. And that's where brands are then coming out and trying to form relationships and engage with people on social media and put claims on their packages and have missions and take a stand on certain issues. That's a way of beginning to get back into relationship with food. It's the tip, it's the scratching the surface. But I think that there's a thirst for it and consumers are starving for it. And so we thrust it in front of them at Epic and again at Force of Nature. We put pictures of the animals on the package. We were told we could never do that. Just as you were told by the producer or the, or the, or the, or whoever at the studio said people didn't Want to see it now? People don't want to see the animal of what they're going to eat on the package. It's like they actually do. They may not even know it, but they do, and they need to, and it's important.
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A
I. What, what hunting, I think, has done for me over the years is. My sons are getting to an age that I'm not taking them with me on the hunt yet, but I am bringing them out to the field with me. Once I take an animal and I dress it with them. But prior to dressing the animal, all three of us sit with our hand on it and pray and thank the land, thank the animal. And we sit there for about five minutes and just feel the energy of that moment that this animal sort of, you know, lived probably a good. If it's an animal that I've been paying attention to and tracking four or five years and is now going to feed our family. And that's the cycle of life. It has been since the beginning of time. It's not a. It's a miraculous thing, almost, right? Truly, truly miraculous thing that this animal has been living off the bounty of the land, eating just the right things to nourish that animal, which happens to also be all the right things to nourish our bodies. And there's this moment now. Both of my sons have now had that experience, right, where, you know, three years now, each of them have. Have had this experience where they've gone out there with me and they've sort of held their hands on this beautiful big animal and thanked thank God in the land and everything for it. Right. I wonder what the percentage of humans today say grace over food. Right. I, I just, I'd be curious the percentage of people that actually can just. Just pause for a moment before they ingest and just say thanks, you know, and whether you're religious or not, it's, in my opinion, like, there is this disappreciation for food. And so when I see someone like you, you don't have to do what you're doing, you could probably have a business that is far more capable of making tons and tons of money and growing way faster. If you did not care as much as you do with how an animal is raised, the process in which that animal is harvested and where that meat goes. And so, you know, what you're doing is like, I just feel like we as human beings are just headed down this really bad path, man. Cell phones. I mean, I compare it to, like, the cell phone because I was thinking about things that I wanted to talk with you about today and you know, like, we just don't care as much. And I think that there is
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B
a
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cohort that are really starting to pause and obviously you wouldn't be in business if people weren't. I wouldn't be in business if people weren't. But there is this like, heads down approach to life across the globe right now that I just think is just tough, you know, And I think people like you that are just saying, you know what, like, I don't need to be, I don't need to be a billionaire. I want to, I want to put something in front of people that's meaningful, that's done well, that's done right, you know, and it's, and it's admirable, man. It really is. Well, if you had to describe, and I just curious, like, who is your customer?
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B
You know, you asked the question where we want to be in five years. Hopefully the answer changes. Hopefully it broadens. You know, I think early when we started, you know, there was a smaller niche of people that were paying attention, that were looking for these things. In fact, we had difficulty getting into stores because we were more expensive and we were, you know, the common challenge that we were met with was, well, it's, that's too expensive. People, you know, they won't pay for that. And like those, those things that you're doing, like you're incorporating organ meats into some of your grinds while why would somebody want that? And you know, and so, you know, you know, we had to get, we had to earn a chance to prove a point, which is that those people are out there and who are, it's, it's more people than you think, but it's definitely people who are paying attention. Step one is, you know, our consumer is somebody that, that cares about themselves and cares about often things bigger than themselves. They care about others and they care about nature and they care about the impact that they leave on the world. They have on the world, and they care about the impact the world has on them. And they see the relationship between the choices they make and the food that they eat and the amount of food that they eat, the number of times a day they eat it, and they want to do better and they want to feel better and be better and know that they're delivering for themselves and for the things that they care about, and whether it's for their children or for their neighbor or for their, themselves or for their performance on the field or at the office. You know, I think that the the force of nature consumer is somebody that's, you know, trying to do their very best in a world that makes that difficult. Um, but, you know, they wake up every day and they recognize that the past is behind them and every day is a new opportunity to try to try to be better and make sure that you can lay your head at night, have a good night's sleep, because you're, you're, you've lived a day that, that you can be proud of. And it wasn't easy and maybe you weren't happy the whole day, but in the face of difficulty, you know, you have serenity.
- [37:09]
A
I, I, I have a belief that some meat, beef specifically, is actually like killing us. The way it's raised and the life that it lives and we're ingesting that. Right. Whereas, and you can see it in biomarkers, which is kind of crazy, right? That when you eat meat that's done right or beef that's done right, you know, it's, it's, I think it's hard to compare it to like bison or venison because you can't really compare it to bison or venison. Right. They're just, they're way, way too close to the world of wild, than, than, than cattle. Right.
- [37:59]
B
Than beef.
- [38:00]
A
But like, do you agree with that? Do you think that that's a. I
- [38:06]
B
think so broad that I absolutely agree. But I think, but it's like I'm getting into, I'm going so broad where it's like many of the pathogens and the diseases that we have become or exist because of our relationship to agriculture. And I think, I think of it killing us because the horrible system of incentives that we've created has led to a rate of suicide in farmers that is greater than the rate of suicide in veterans. So absolutely, it's killing us.
- [38:32]
A
And I think that there's, Is that a fact?
- [38:34]
B
That's a fact. That's a fact. Here in Austin, my farmer, the guy used to buy pork, lamb and raw milk from, committed suicide last October, and he was a friend of mine. Wow. That's a sadly common occurrence. It's because we've created an environment for our food producers that is hopeless. And so, yeah, you know, it's directly and indirectly, I think that you're accurate. I do think that the food that in the most commodified form, commodity, oh, don't, don't forget antibiotic resistant bacteria that come from, you know, these, like I said, it's an environment ripe for contagion, being exposed to high Human grade antibiotics. That's where a lot of antibiotic resistance comes from. So again, indirectly, yeah, absolutely, that system is killing us. And then sure, the nutritional profile is fairly consistent on the most basic measures. But when you get into any, you go any layers deeper, you realize how much it is lacking. And you realize also it's not just what isn't in there in the terms of also the phyto or nutrients beyond the macros and micros, it's also the presence of what is in there. What sort of PFAS might be in there, what sort of metals might be in there, what sort of agriculture chemical residue might be in the food. So it's like you want more of the good stuff and less of the bad stuff. If nobody's paying attention to anything other than the commodity price, then yeah.
- [40:04]
A
Can you just give us a walk through a force of. Force of nature, just so the community can hear.
- [40:11]
B
So Force of Nature is a meat company. We sell everything from the wild sort of game that you were talking about, beef or, sorry, excuse me, wild game, bison, venison, elk. We also sell traditional proteins like beef, chicken. And we do not sell pork right now. And we sell those in a variety of formats. You can buy steaks, you can buy ground meat, you can buy sausages and various different forms. You can buy meatballs that are already cooked and hot dogs that are already cooked. And so you can. We have breakfast sausage. That's what my daughter requires me to provide her every single day. And my wife texts me incessantly to make sure when I'm at the office I don't forget to bring it home when we're out because we will be faced with a frustrated 4 year old if we don't. And so we sell a lot of different products. The idea being we want to make it convenient. We want to make it simple for consumers to get access. Now why is it so important that it's convenient and simple? It's because our value set, we try to go above and beyond. We do what's right when nobody's looking. There's so much stuff that goes into making our job more difficult than it needs to be. We don't put on our packages that we had to go to the ends of the earth to find spices that were not irradiated. People don't know that that doesn't make it on the label. Most spices are either have pesticides in them or are irradiated to alleviate larvae and pests and stuff. We have to find spices that don't have that. We have to do all these little things, right? You know, the welfare of the animals, the, the impact on the land, the impact on the community. And when people hear that, they're like, that's what I want, but how do I get it? Well, we want to make that really easy for you by having everything you could possibly want for, you know, the three meals of the day that you might be interested in. And then we do that in grocery stores. So we're available in natural grocery stores and conventional grocery stores all across the country. We do that in restaurants and we do it direct, directly delivered to your door through E Commerce. You can go online, buy a box of meat and we'll ship it to your door in a few days. So we want to make getting the best meat on the planet easier for consumers and give you the opportunity to vote for a system that aligns with your own values and finally have a product that actually delivers on the expectations you've always already had.
- [42:33]
A
And the sourcing of all that meat is coming through. What partners and your own personal, like your co founder has a ranch. Are you guys producing meat that actually goes into Force of Nature products?
- [42:46]
B
Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Rome Ranch sells some bison to Force of Nature. Relatively small percentage because we're a decent, you know, we're mid sized company now, but we have producers of beef anywhere from Australia to all across from, from the west coast to the east coast to the center of the country. We have many dozens of producers all across the United States just for beef bison all over the country as well, from chicken California and Pennsylvania and Minneapolis and Texas. And so we basically have formed our own, we're aggregating across a wide supply chain in order to support them in their endeavors and be a good partner and a good steward. Some of them have their own brand, some of them do their, some of them don't. Some of them won't even show up on a video call because they have a flip phone and they just want to hang out with their cows. And some are actually capable business people that, you know, have chosen to be more involved in more capacities in the business. That's great. You know, we just want to be a, be able to contribute and create value for them and reward them for what they're doing and then, you know, similarly connect consumers and build a, build a supply network that connects those producers with consumers that actually have those same sets of values and want those same things and not to be lost in this conversation. As processors, last couple of decades we've lost half of the small, medium sized processors in the country. You know, we know there's four companies that do, you know, 80% of the beef in the country and they have a really big organic and a really big grass fed business. They actually have the majority of it. That's why it's, that's why it's important that consumers don't just look for claims, but look for people that actually want to have a relationship with them. Key demonstration that you care about somebody is a willingness and proactive desire to actually engage and relate with them.
- [44:32]
A
When somebody sees a package of, call it ground beef labeled organic or grass fed in the grocery store, what should they be looking for?
- [44:43]
B
Well, I think they should be looking for a brand that they're familiar with, that they relate to and that they understand on who they feel understands them. I think if all you're looking for is a claim, that's a, not to, you know, not to sound like I'm attacking the, the innocent customer who's being taken advantage of. But if all you're looking for a claim, it's a reductionist way of, of living your life, there's so much more than that claim that is important. And none of those claims deliver on everything that you're looking for. Not grass fed, not organic, not any of a regenerative label that's out there, not antibiotic free, not, you know, none of those claims are going to really look holistically at the thousands of millions of considerations that represent the nuance that really matters. The little things that add up and compound to ultimately create the most valuable item on the shelf for you. And so how would you know that without having somebody, a trusted ally, a partner, an organization that you believe in, to, to engage with, to be the purveyor of your food. Now again, you may be traveling, you may not have that opportunity. We try to be everywhere for that very reason. Right. But if you aren't someplace where you know what's available to you, what do you look for then? Then, yeah, your hands are somewhat tied. And you got to trust that the grass fed, pasture raised, you know, maybe regenerative beef option is, is a better option than the unlabeled item, maybe behind a butcher case that doesn't carry any of those claims. Certainly it's, it's, it's likely better. But, but if it's the best, if it's really the good stuff, it's somebody that like, like I've said before, is going out of their way to try to find you, to try to engage with you, to try to tell you A story to try to pull the, pull the curtain back and let you see, like, look, look how different I am. Look how much I care. Look how important all of this is to us. We're talking about things you may have never even heard of. You know, I think the company that has a good marketing thesis that said, that has the claims, but there's, you know, you click on about us or sourcing, whatever, and the page hasn't been updated. There's nothing there. And there's, there's no people, there's no, there's no soul. Those are hollow brands. That's what I would say is a red flag because you can, you can get lured off track by chasing claims. So I think in a pinch that can be okay. And those would be the claims in beef that I'd be looking for. But there's, there's so much that you might be, that you might be missing in that. And I would say that you want to find somebody that you trust to be the partner that is likely nourishing you and your family for the majority, that you have your plate for the majority of your meals. Out of the day.
- [47:46]
A
How do you get your hands on? How are you able to sell elk at scale? How is that possible?
- [47:52]
B
So it's farm raised, it's not wild harvested. They're still wild, so that. So wild. The wild designation is the genetics of these animals is they are the animals.
- [48:03]
A
Right.
- [48:03]
B
You know, people don't recognize that, like cows don't exist in nature. Right, right, right. They are, they are the result of selective breeding wild animals to be larger, to be more docile, to in some cases produce more milk, in some cases be more resilient in certain environments. And so, you know, those are domesticated animals. Wild animals are animals that, you know, that have evolved for, through the millennia, just like us. And so there are operations that can farm wild animals. You don't see it done very often or very well in the United States. And so we work with partners in New Zealand that we've gone out and visited many, many times and that we're really, really proud of the work that they do. They're very, very proud of the work that they do.
- [48:50]
A
Are elk native in New Zealand?
- [48:52]
B
They are not.
- [48:53]
A
So they brought them there, but they haven't.
- [48:54]
B
The only thing native. The only thing mammals are not native to New Zealand. New Zealand should be swamps and trees, but hundreds of years ago it was. The forests were chopped down and it became just this incredible landscape that you see in the Lord of the Rings or wherever that is just incredible for agriculture. And so New Zealand has become a mecca for really good agriculture. Wow.
- [49:21]
A
I am so fascinated by just this idea that there's so many different grades into the food we consume. So many. And unfortunately, Our bodies are a byproduct of what we eat. Right. They just are like you are. What you eat is like, you know, it's true. I mean everything that, that when we're fetus in the womb, our, you know, our mothers are consuming nutrition that's ultimately developing us. Right.
- [50:09]
B
When you're a fetus in the womb, if you're a female, your mother is feeding you the nutrition that will create all of the eggs you will ever have in your entire life. So those and the quality of those of your offspring, you know, three generations from your mother were dictated by what she was, how she was living and what she was putting in her body to produce you and your children.
- [50:39]
A
How old is force of nature now? What year are you all in?
- [50:42]
B
Should be year seven. Wow. We're going into year eight.
- [50:46]
A
What was the biggest challenge or what has been the biggest challenge for you guys? Education.
- [50:53]
B
You know, I think education has been. Is always difficult when, whenever again, you know, I always say like, I think that, that there's a commodity came claims game out there that that isn't that suited to ensure the big people win. You know, an example of that would be many of the absolute best of the best of the best beef producers in the country. It's not obtainable for them to get an organic designation. So is organic really the best designation?
- [51:22]
A
It's.
- [51:23]
B
Doesn't really make sense. Right. That's a long rabbit hole conversation that we probably don't have time to get into. Organic's good. My pantry is full of it with my fruits and vegetables and nuts and, and other cooking components. But it doesn't necessarily serve much of the beef industry very well. And so competing, trying to help educate consumers on that and help them make better choices and help get them on a path that's closer to what they're already looking for and reveal that we have short attention spans. Life is difficult, people are busy. And so it's a long game and that's okay. We're willing to be patient. We're willing to do the right thing for as long as it takes to reach as many people that will inevitably and ultimately appreciate it. You know, right now the price of beef is really high. We were already a premium player. One of the more expensive options out there. It's still worth it. I could break down the Calculus for you. It's still cheaper to buy Force of nature and buy some frozen organic vegetables and make a stir fry that is way more healthy for you than anything you could get at a fast food restaurant. And cheaper and way more healthier than anything. And cheaper than anything you get. At 7:11. You can't get a turkey club and a Big Gulp and a bag of chips for less than you can feed a family of four with a pound of ground meat and a $2 bag of frozen organic vegetables. So as expensive as it is, it's still incredibly cheap for the value that you're getting in exchange for it. So having those conversations and that dialogue is hard when. When it's inflated. You know, in some cases, 50% still the right choice, but it's difficult and it makes running the business harder, you know, from the. On the, on the back end side of it. So, you know, those. Those have been challenging. Keep in mind that we started the business, you know, did the. Did some of the groundwork in 18, started it in, in. In mid 19, started getting products out in the summer, and then Covid hit six months later, and that blew us up, man. We had a big restaurant business and, you know, had just launched a website about two months before everything shut down. All of our. We had all kinds of new business and we weren't allowed to get on the trucks because they kind of shut things down. So that was challenging. And then, of course, there was major supply chain disruptions after that. And then of course, there was a labor market challenge after that. And then, you know, so, you know, it's been one thing after another. But, you know, I mean, again, I think that's just like. Business in many ways is like a metaphor for life. You know, it's just like, it's not what happens to you, it's how you. How you respond to it. And we have incredible people. I'm really proud of our team, and I think they're smart and experienced and passionate, and they. They show up every day doing the best they can to try to make a difference and to serve consumers and to serve our processing network and to serve producers as well.
- [54:15]
A
So would you say for the person listening to this podcast that's wanted to step into the world of just like, you know, sourcing better ingredients for themselves and their family for food that they cook at home, do you. I mean, would you say that. That the products that you guys put out there are some of the best? And I'm not saying like the best. Like, you need a pat on the Back the best, like just actually the best quality you can.
- [54:43]
B
Absolutely. Hands down, if I could make them better, I would. Got it.
- [54:49]
A
Dude, this has been such a great conversation, man. I, I, I, you know, I, I, I'm a meat eater. I ate a lot of meat and more people should. Yeah, totally.
- [55:00]
B
And finally the world, the government agrees with us officially.
- [55:03]
A
As as of yesterday, we saw a boom right out there in the open.
- [55:06]
B
What is it? 1.2 to 1.6 grams per kilogram of body weight. That was a little higher than I was. Or per pound of body weight. That was. They're really pushing it. That's good.
- [55:16]
A
I, I wonder how that's going to impact your business. I'd be so curious to check in with you in six months and just see.
- [55:22]
B
Yeah, well, you know, again, I think demand is for, for meat is at an all time high. Beef in particular and the type of beef that we have and so that's great. But again it's expensive and so, you know, we want to make this product accessible. We want to reach people. We don't want to be for, only for the elites. And like I said, I think again, dollar for dollar, penny for penny, dollar for dollar, our price per ounce were less expensive than Hershey's or Ruffles. So the things that people buy at a, as an impulse buy at the register, we're still a lot cheaper than that. And we're actually going to save your life. But, but again, we, you know, we want to make sure we're accessible. But I'm, I'm pretty confident on the path that we're on and what we're doing. And I think this is going to be good, not just for our business. Sure. And I'm glad about that. You know, I think we got a lot of tailwinds. I listed some of the headwinds. There's tons of tailwinds out there. Those have existed for a while. I think it's going to make a difference for people. I think it's going to make a difference for the next generation. People being healthier as a citizen, as a neighbor, as a friend, as a family member. I'm tired of hearing of a new cancer diagnosis every day. Seeing obesity and diabetes, especially in children and in others, being a challenge. And look, even eating more meat and whole foods, fruits and vegetables and the type of meat that we're selling and replacing that incremental consumption of that good stuff in place of some processed food that's been normalized is going to have a profound positive impact in your life. Don't forget dementia, heart disease. The list just goes on in seemingly every capacity and facet. And nine of the top ten causes of death in the United States, the one exception being accidental. Although maybe if you have more, better cognition will be fewer accidents. And if you're better, more physically. Hey, my wife's an ER doctor. She has people come in, seemingly, you know, young folks who fall, have head trauma and that's it. You know, they're vegetables. And if they had stronger bodies, they could have prevented that from happening. So I guess 10 of the 10.
- [57:24]
A
So yeah, where can, where can the, the audience follow along on your journey? And force of Nature, where can they find you?
- [57:32]
B
So forceofnature.com that's our website. We have a blog there. We put a lot of educational material there. You can learn a lot on our website. You can buy products from our website. You can see our full list of items. You can learn more about how meat is good for you and what all it does for you and how it has a positive impact on the environment. And more about our sourcing standards. And got a lot of really fun updates coming this year on the nutritional side as well as the transparency and sourcing side, like introducing new products. We are introducing new products as well, but we're doing a lot of testing, we're doing a lot of research. We're collaborating with a lot of scientists to try to find ways to introduce information to consumers that's digestible so they can appreciate the value that they're getting. And then transparency, meaning, like, what are our sourcing standards? What is different beyond the claims, et cetera, et cetera. And then, yeah, when we launch product, you can sign up for our newsletter. We will definitely try to sell you some stuff, but not flagrant. We're not going to bombard you with emails about buy, buy, buy. We try to introduce you to things too, and we try to form a relationship with you. And we try to put in education there. And then at Force of Nature meets lots of educational opportunity there. And then I think we're going to rekindle our. Our podcast is called Where Hope Grows and that's an opportunity. And there's a bunch of old, old podcasts. We've gone way down the rabbit hole on claims and way down the rabbit hole on two hours on why. But just, just how and why we came up with the specific chicken protocol that we did and what regenerative agriculture is and all the different things. So tons of ways to learn. I would, I would love it. Not if nothing more. Than folks did that and just found us as a great source and platform to learn. You don't have to buy from us. There's plenty of great folks to buy from. I hope you buy better stuff. I hope you support the system that, that makes you proud and that aligns with your values. It's not my place to tell you what your values should be, but I can introduce you to things you might not know and I'd be proud to do that. And if you did buy our, buy our products, I'd be grateful for that as well. Awesome, man.
- [59:39]
A
Robby, this is great. I mean you were kind and sent me a really great box of product about a month ago that I enjoyed every single gram of with my family. So I really appreciate that. And you know, I, I have a freezer full of some of the greatest meat on the planet, but of course we supplement with poultry and bison is a big one for me. And you know, the truth is, is that I, I promised myself that I would, I would not eat elk until I harvested one myself in the field.
- [60:18]
B
Did you do it?
- [60:18]
A
Not yet, man. This, I, I just got, I, I was, I, I, I was almost like I just felt that I was going to draw a tag in Idaho this year and, and I just got the, the pass on it.
- [60:29]
B
I had a, I, I, I went elk hunting this year and came back empty handed. So that was a little tough. That one was.
- [60:35]
A
I still have, I still have Montana, New Mexico and, and Wyoming like, you know. So I'm, I'm hoping, I'm hoping that this is my year. I really am. But we will, we will be a customer. That is a guarantee. So I'm grateful for what you're doing. It is truly a, it's an admirable thing to do because I know, I know trying to change behaviors is one of the hardest things to do as a, as an entrepreneur and a business person. Trying to get people to believe in this mission that you have, that is not false. It's a real, it's a real thing.
- [61:12]
B
And the, and the business has to actually work and it's difficult to do in one of the lowest margin industries on the planet.
- [61:17]
A
Totally. I get it, man. I get it. You know, I'm, I'm, I am, I opened up a sustainable seafood restaurant that thank God the city of New York really appreciated and embraced. People thought I was out of my mind crazy when I did that. People, people said who's. You are not going to be able
- [61:33]
B
to get people to eat bluefish.
- [61:34]
A
It's just, you're just not going to, you know, and, and, and one thing that I, that I, I, I, I really resonated with when I, when you said, you know, the people that are doing it right are the people that are going to, going to stumble trying to tell you what they're doing right. They're, they're the people that are so passionate about it that they just, they're, they're, they're, you know, they're going to want to tell you everything. They want to tell you everything and it's not going to be easy for them to articulate. Whereas, like some of these bigger business guys are just going to tell you they've got like an elevator pitch right then and there.
- [62:04]
B
Three claims and a low price.
- [62:05]
A
Yeah. So, you know, meeting with fishermen from, from Maine to Maryland was like a big part of my job launching this business Seymours. And you know, these fishermen couldn't, couldn't, couldn't have been more excited because the truth is, is that they sent 95% of their catch, which is local, sustainable, highly abundant, underutilized species of fish that swim on the east Coast, United States that just didn't get a good marketing plan. Like tuna, salmon, halibut, cod. They send it all to Asia and the UK for fish and chips. You know, when I told them that I was going to give them 10 times what they were getting for it from overseas, these guys were just beyond.
- [62:47]
B
Yeah, same, same story. And across the food industry, right. When you asked what Force of Nature about, I mean, when is about, what it really boils down to is, you know, we're trying to create awareness to important issues in food and then give folks access to different products that offer more value to them. And we can't do the awareness part without folks like you. So thank you for the opportunity to be here as well.
- [63:10]
A
Dude, appreciate it. Appreciate you coming on. Listeners, I encourage you to pop over to Robby's site, forceofnature.com and if you're not educated in this world, do some digging. Do some digging. Because if you are someone who consumes animal protein, it's really important that you start paying attention because there's way more people that are not doing the right thing than are. And that is going to 100%, absolutely, unequivocally impact your health, your longevity, and honestly, your happiness. So pop over to Force of Nature, give them a look. There's a monthly subscription I'm sure that people can opt into and just have meat show up at their front door.
- [64:10]
B
Yeah, Yep, yep. If you want meat you can trust. You can get it on whatever intervals you want, however you want to get it, whatever you want to get.
- [64:20]
A
So if this podcast perked your ear, do me a favor and share with someone that you care about. Give them the gift of learning about a really passionate human being that's doing something really, really difficult and is not going to roll over for, you know, for what we've been taught. I really appreciate you guys tuning into the podcast. It means a lot to me for tuning in, for subscribing, for being part of this thing. I love doing this. I love doing it. I love introducing you guys to people that have inspired me, people that have something to say that, that. That will ultimately make an impact in your life if you. If you listen and take the opportunity to implement. So the only price I ask you all to pay, the only rent I ask you to pay for listening, is to share the podcast. Just share it. Post it on social media, send it to your mom, send it to your uncle, send it to your cousin, your brother, your sister, your friends. Share about it, because that's how we grow. Give us a five star rating and a review. That would be awesome, too. Until the next one, y'.
- [65:34]
B
All.
- [65:34]
A
Peace.
- [65:40]
B
That.