Kubernetes Podcast from Google: Episode Summary

Title: Dagger, with Solomon Hykes
Hosts: Abdel Sagiwar, Kaslan Fields
Release Date: September 17, 2024

Introduction

In this episode of the Kubernetes Podcast from Google, hosts Abdel Sagiwar and Kaslan Fields engage in an insightful conversation with Solomon Hykes, the co-founder of Dagger and the renowned creator of Docker. The discussion delves into the evolution of CI/CD pipelines, the innovative approach Dagger brings to the table, and Solomon's perspectives on the open-source business landscape.

News Roundup

Before diving into the interview, Abdel and Kaslan provided a concise update on recent developments in the Kubernetes ecosystem:

1. Kubeadm Configuration Update (00:31):

   • Kubernetes 1.31 introduces a new configuration version for Kubeadm.
   • Notable Quote: Kaslan Fields mentions, "The old version, v1 beta 3, is officially deprecated and will be removed after three minor Kubernetes versions."

2. Kubernetes 1.32 Release Cycle (00:52):

   • The 1.32 release cycle commenced on September 9th, with an anticipated launch on December 11th, 2024.
   • Notable Quote: Abdel Sagiwar expresses optimism, "We wish the release team good luck and look forward to interviewing the release."

3. CKA Exam Updates (01:05):

   • The Certified Kubernetes Administrator Certification is undergoing changes in competencies required for passing.
   • These updates will be effective no earlier than November 25, 2020.

4. Generative AI Survey (01:23):

   • The CNCF and Linux Foundation Research are conducting a 2024 survey to understand generative AI's deployment and challenges in organizations.

5. Azure Container Networking Enhancements (01:50):

   • Microsoft's Azure Container Networking Team announced new features for Advanced Container Networking Services, including fully qualified domain name filtering to enhance security.

Interview with Solomon Hykes

Introduction to Solomon Hykes and Dagger [02:15 – 04:35]

Abdel Sagiwar introduces Solomon Hykes, highlighting his pivotal role in creating Docker and co-founding Dagger. Solomon begins by defining Dagger as an engine that can run pipelines and containers anywhere, aiming to streamline and standardize CI/CD processes.

Notable Quote:
Solomon Hykes at [03:01]:
"Dagger is an engine that can run your pipelines and containers and can run them anywhere."

Challenges in Traditional CI/CD Pipelines [04:35 – 10:16]

Solomon elaborates on the complexities and inefficiencies of traditional CI/CD pipelines, comparing them to the early days of application deployment before Docker standardized environments. He emphasizes that while applications have become more portable, pipelines remain rigid and often become a tangled mess over time.

Notable Quote:
Solomon Hykes at [04:53]:
"The pipeline logic, the logic that builds and tests and deploys and automates all the tasks to get your application ready and deployed, that's basically its own application now. Yes, right. It's very complicated."

Dagger's Distinct Approach [10:16 – 22:41]

Dagger differentiates itself by treating CI/CD pipelines as applications that are programmable through SDKs available in languages like Python, Go, and TypeScript. This programmable nature allows teams to define and manage pipelines using familiar coding practices rather than rigid configuration files like YAML.

Notable Quotes:
Solomon Hykes at [05:14]:
"It's very hard to run that locally. If it were, people would do it already."

Solomon Hykes at [09:11]:
"Dagger is an attempt at fixing that, and we're doing it in a way that's very similar to how Docker actually fixed very similar problems for the application."

The OS for Pipelines Concept [19:27 – 26:50]

Solomon introduces the concept of Dagger as an "OS for pipelines," leveraging Directed Acyclic Graphs (DAGs) to model and execute pipeline tasks concurrently. By building on BuildKit—the engine behind Docker builds—Dagger provides a robust framework for defining, running, and managing complex CI/CD workflows.

Notable Quote:
Solomon Hykes at [19:27]:
"So we're thinking of this as an OS for pipelines."

Developer Experience and SDKs [26:50 – 37:31]

The conversation shifts to the developer experience, emphasizing the importance of allowing pipeline definitions in multiple programming languages. Initially, Dagger introduced a new language called Q for pipeline definitions but pivoted to generating SDKs in imperative languages to reduce friction and cater to developers' existing language preferences.

Notable Quotes:
Solomon Hykes at [20:14]:
"Every pipeline system that starts out as a strict nice, pleasant configuration gradually devolves into trying to be code."

Solomon Hykes at [25:16]:
"Now, Dagger is an engine that runs your pipelines as a graph of concurrent tasks with data flowing through them."

Daggerverse: A Marketplace for Dagger Modules [44:00 – 62:10]

Daggerverse is introduced as a marketplace for sharing and discovering Dagger modules—extensible components that allow users to build and compose pipelines efficiently. Unlike Docker Hub's binary-centric approach, Daggerverse focuses on source code, enhancing transparency and trust.

Notable Quote:
Solomon Hykes at [44:07]:
"We created a system where you can package your Dagger functions written in your language into what we call a module."

Integration with Infrastructure as Code [61:30 – 65:20]

Solomon discusses how Dagger complements Infrastructure as Code (IaC) tools like Terraform and Pulumi. While Dagger focuses on stateless, cacheable pipelines, IaC tools manage the synchronization of infrastructure state, making them harmonious components within a modern DevOps toolkit.

Notable Quote:
Solomon Hykes at [46:18]:
"Dagger is not an infrastructure as code platform, it's a pipeline platform."

Open Source Business Model [48:15 – 51:31]

Addressing the open-source business landscape, Solomon outlines Dagger's approach, inspired by Red Hat's model. Dagger maintains an open-source license for the engine, ensuring transparency and community trust, while controlling the trademark to maintain product integrity.

Notable Quote:
Solomon Hykes at [48:40]:
"Our model is the Red Hat model. We have a regular open source license with no plans of changing it and strict control on the trademark."

Key Takeaways

1. Standardization and Portability:

   • Dagger seeks to bring the same level of standardization to CI/CD pipelines as Docker did for application deployment, ensuring consistency across environments.

2. Programmable Pipelines:

   • By offering SDKs in multiple languages, Dagger allows developers to define pipelines using familiar programming paradigms, enhancing flexibility and reducing complexity.

3. OS for Pipelines:

   • Treating pipelines as applications managed by an OS-like engine enables more efficient execution, caching, and scalability.

4. Community-Driven Development:

   • Dagger emphasizes community-led growth, leveraging platforms like Discord for feedback and collaborative development.

5. Transparency and Trust:

   • Through Daggerverse, Dagger promotes a source code-centric marketplace, addressing trust issues associated with binary distributions.

6. Complementary to IaC Tools:

   • Dagger integrates seamlessly with Infrastructure as Code solutions, enhancing the overall DevOps ecosystem without overlapping functionalities.

Conclusion

This episode offered a deep dive into the innovative solutions Dagger brings to the CI/CD landscape, challenging traditional paradigms with a programmable, standardized, and developer-friendly approach. Solomon Hykes' insights shed light on the future of pipeline management, emphasizing efficiency, flexibility, and community collaboration. For DevOps professionals and Kubernetes enthusiasts alike, understanding Dagger's methodology provides valuable perspectives on optimizing CI/CD workflows in modern development environments.

Notable Quotes:

• Solomon Hykes [03:32]:
  "Dagger is an attempt at fixing that, and we're doing it in a way that's very similar to how Docker actually fixed very similar problems for the application."

• Solomon Hykes [05:14]:
  "The point of a pipeline is to connect pieces together. It's to be the glue, right?"

• Solomon Hykes [19:27]:
  "So we're thinking of this as an OS for pipelines."

• Solomon Hykes [25:16]:
  "Now, Dagger is an engine that runs your pipelines as a graph of concurrent tasks with data flowing through them."

• Solomon Hykes [48:40]:
  "Our model is the Red Hat model. We have a regular open source license with no plans of changing it and strict control on the trademark."

For more detailed insights and ongoing updates, listeners are encouraged to join Dagger's active community channels and explore the Daggerverse for a wealth of shared modules and collaborative opportunities.