Argue Less: Assert Yourself by Framing Conversations with Jefferson Fisher

Summary

Kwik Brain with Jim Kwik

Episode: Argue Less: Assert Yourself by Framing Conversations with Jefferson Fisher

Date: September 22, 2025
Guest: Jefferson Fisher, trial lawyer, speaker, bestselling author of The Next Conversation

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Brief Overview

This episode centers on how to navigate difficult conversations with greater self-control, clarity, and assertiveness. Jim Kwik hosts Jefferson Fisher, an expert trial lawyer and communication coach, to discuss actionable techniques for de-escalating arguments, regulating emotions, and framing conversations for better outcomes—whether at work, home, or anywhere conflict can arise. The episode is packed with practical tools, memorable phrases, and real-world tips to turn challenging talks into productive, respectful exchanges.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Biggest Mistakes in Difficult Conversations

[01:39]

• Mistake 1: Believing your words don’t matter.
  • Words can linger for a lifetime; even playground insults from decades past can shape insecurities.
  • Quote: “Every word matters because they, they solidify into our memory…you’ll remember those words.” — Jefferson Fisher [02:24]
• Mistake 2: Assuming that what you said was exactly what was heard.
  • Communication is not just delivery; it's how your message is interpreted by the other person.
  • Quote: “Too many times we get into an argument and somebody said, ‘You were just so mean,’ and you go, ‘No, I wasn’t. Tell me what I said.’” — Jefferson Fisher [03:08]

2. The Rapid-Fire Response Trap & Conversational Breath

[04:04]

• Rushing to respond means you’re likely not listening fully.
• Letting your breath be the first “word” you say brings calm, slows the pace, and keeps you regulated.
  • Quote: “Those who control the pace of the conversation are the very ones who control themselves.” — Jefferson Fisher [06:53]
• Technique: The Conversational Breath
  • Double inhalation or “physiological sigh” ([06:16]–[06:53]):
    • Inhale for three seconds, brief pause, inhale again for two more seconds, then exhale.
    • Do this before responding, especially when triggered.

3. How to Stay Calm When Emotionally Triggered

[07:49]

• Recognize your body’s signals: tensing up, heavier breath, urge to “fight or flight.”
• Use breath as the #1 tool to regain control.
• Phrase: “I can tell…”
  • Claiming your emotional state increases self-awareness and emotional intelligence.
  • Examples: “I can tell I’m getting defensive,” “I can tell I’m aggravated.”
  • This separates you from your emotion and prevents acting it out destructively.
  • Quote: “When you claim it, you control it.” — Jefferson Fisher [08:17]

4. Starting Difficult Conversations: The Right Way

[12:20]

• Avoid small talk or artificial soft landings (“How’s the weather…”) before delivering hard news—it increases anxiety and feels insincere.
  • Quote: “All of this small talk workup…is not to make the other person feel better. It’s to make me feel better because I’m afraid to jump into it.” — Jefferson Fisher [13:53]
• Best Practice: Label the conversation up front.
  • Directly state, “This is going to be a difficult conversation,” or “You may not like what I have to say.”
  • Leads to greater transparency, psychological safety, and reduces anxiety.
  • Quote: “Instead of this small talk, I want you to label the conversation right out of the gate.” — Jefferson Fisher [14:49]

5. Mindset, Self-awareness, and the Love of Learning

[16:32]

• Communication skills are not innate; they require conscious, ongoing effort and learning.

• Self-awareness and intention create space for behavioral change.

• Personal Note from Jefferson:

  • Currently focused on parenting and teaching his children proactive communication and conflict skills at home, starting young.
  • Quote: “How can we build better communicators from the get-go?” — Jefferson Fisher [17:17]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Every word matters because they solidify into our memory…you’ll remember those words.” — Jefferson Fisher [02:24]
• “Those who control the pace of the conversation are the very ones who control themselves.” — Jefferson Fisher [06:53]
• “When you claim it, you control it.” — Jefferson Fisher [08:17]
• “All of this small talk workup…is not to make the other person feel better. It’s to make me feel better because I’m afraid to jump into it.” — Jefferson Fisher [13:53]
• “Instead of this small talk, I want you to label the conversation right out of the gate.” — Jefferson Fisher [14:49]
• “How can we build better communicators from the get-go?” — Jefferson Fisher [17:17]
• Jim Kwik: “These quick little tips…it’s kind of like a small hinge that could swing a really large door.” [10:32]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:20: Introduction and Jefferson Fisher’s background
• 01:39: Biggest mistakes in difficult conversations
• 03:46: How to get to mutual understanding—ask, “What did you hear?”
• 04:04: Avoiding rapid-fire responses, using breath to regulate
• 06:16: Double inhalation breath (“physiological sigh”)
• 07:49: Strategies for emotional regulation and the “I can tell” phrase
• 12:20: Framing and labeling difficult conversations; why small talk doesn’t help
• 14:49: Implementation of direct labeling in practice
• 16:32: The importance of self-awareness and intentional communication
• 17:06: Jefferson’s focus on parenting and fostering communication in his family

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Key Takeaways

• Every word counts. Don’t underestimate the lasting impact of what is said in heated moments.
• Slow down conversations. Use intentional pauses and breath for clarity and control.
• Label your emotions (“I can tell…”). This boosts self-awareness and reduces reactivity.
• Open tough talks with directness. Set the context transparently instead of hiding behind small talk.
• Practice self-awareness. Intentional communication can be learned and should be modeled—at work, home, and beyond.

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Connect with Jefferson Fisher

• jeffersonfisher.com
• Instagram: @jefferson_fisher
• School of Communication: Available through his website
• Book: The Next Conversation (find anywhere books are sold)

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“You can’t always control that first conversation, but you could always lead the next one.” — Jim Kwik [18:55]

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Summary written in alignment with the episode’s actionable, positive, and practical tone.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Kwik Brain Bite Sized Brain Hacks for busy people who want to learn faster and achieve more. I'm your coach, Jim Kwik. Free your mind. Let's imagine if we could access 100% of our brain's capacity.

[B]

I wasn't high, wasn't wired, just clear. I knew what I needed to do and how to do it.

[A]

I know kung fu. Show me. Welcome back, Kwik Brains. I am your host and your brain coach, Jim Kwik. I have a question for you. Have you ever walked away from a conversation thinking, why did that get so heated? Or I wish I had said that better. And you're left wondering why yet another conversation didn't pan out as you envisioned it. Today we're joined by someone who goes up against people whose primary job is to make sure he loses every single day. Jefferson Fisher is a trial lawyer, a speaker, and the bestselling author of this book, which I highly recommend. It's called the Next Conversation, so all our quick readers could get your copy. When it comes to a jury trial, the stakes are, as you can imagine, incredibly high. Jefferson is here to share with us how you can show up as more of your best self, even in life's and works artist conversations. So welcome to the show, Jefferson.

[B]

Great to meet you, Jim. And I'm just honored and thrilled to be able to talk to the QWIK community. I feel like y' all are the gold standard of lifelong learners. So to be here and talk with you, man, it's a huge honor. I feel welcome.

[A]

What would you say are some of the big mistakes or myths that people make, especially when approaching difficult conversations at work or at home?

[B]

Two big things come to mind, Jim, is that one, we make the mistake of thinking our words don't matter when every word does for every person listening. Now, I want you to think back in time of you were at the playground at school and you remember somebody who said something mean to you. I promise you you'll think of something. And it might be the very first time that insecurity was formed. The very first time you go, what? What? What? I'm. You mean I'm not the smartest, I'm not the best. You know, my parents told me I was the most perfect everything. And now I'm getting made fun of and you carry it with you. And that happened. It could have happened 40 years ago, 50 years ago, 30 years ago, but you'll remember those words. Every word matters because they, they solidify into our, our memory, which of course you, you know, way more than Me, media, how that happens. Biggest second mistake is thinking that what is said was exactly what was heard. We feel like just because we said it, that's exactly how they received it. And usually that is the exception. Too many times we get into an argument if you doubt that premise. How many times have you been into an argument and somebody said, you were just so mean and you go, no, I wasn't. Tell me what I said. And then they regurgitate what you said and you do, they do it perfect. No, you go, that's not what I said. That's not how I said it. That's not what I. And we get into this, this squabble, this fight over as if I am the judge and the observer of my message and instead of saying this, that's not what I said fight, flip it. To ask, what did you hear? What? What did you hear? What did you see? What words did I use? Being able to hear their perspective of it is going to be a whole lot bigger picture because you're quickly getting to the intent.

[A]

Are there, are there certain things that you teach your clients or everyone who's listening here to avoid? Maybe one that works surprisingly well in everyday conversations. Like one of those kind of mistakes.

[B]

When I have a client and they're going to give a deposition, here's some major things that I prepare them for. One is do not have the rapid fire response. We often feel in conversation that just because somebody said something, we have to have a really quick response. And what that does is ensures that you weren't really listening. Plenty of times I asked somebody a question and they want to kind of step on my question at the very end of it, I might not even get through my question, but they already feel like they know where I'm going and they will answer it right away. That's a surefire way of not really listening. Most of the time you're giving the attorney exactly what they want because they want that really quick. Yes, and quick. No. 2 is understanding that nobody can make you say anything that you don't want to say. Nobody can force you to answer in the timeframe that they want. So one quick way of doing that is I teach it. You let your breath be the first word that you say. So anybody listening? If you feel like you're in conversation with somebody and you feel friction and they start saying something you don't like, the first thing you typically do is you hold your breath and then you start shifting around. I know you're listening, so you probably can't see me. But Those who are seeing me, this is what it looks like. All of a sudden you hear something you don't like. What do you do? You kind of roll your eyes, you look around you, you, you shift. You might take in breath, but you're not letting it out. And you tense up your body. Why? Because you're ready and prepared to throw something right back at them. And what happens is that that logical side of your brain, you know, this just shuts off. And so now I'm, I'm feeling my emotions and I'm going to have an emotional response when I. You put a breath, meaning where your first word would be put a breath in its place, it going to help you have a lot more clarity, going to make you sound a lot more controlled and make you sound a lot more calm. Those kind of things are very, very easy to do. And it helps you stay much more regulated in the conversation. I call it a conversational breath. I know those of you listening, everybody here, you have an extremely intelligent community.

[A]

Jim.

[B]

And it's a double inhalation breath. They might know it as a physiological sigh. That's where you have two inhalations. So like three seconds in through the nose, two more seconds up at the top, and then out through the nose again. So that double inhalation mimics a sigh. And you can do it quietly. You can, it doesn't have to be exaggerated. You do it as soon as before you respond, you do it whenever you're getting information you don't like and that's gonna help regulate you. So that's one of the number one tips that I give, especially people who feel nervous in the conversation that they're going to get, get worked up. Because in litigation you can start talking about stuff that of course it's conflict, it's uncomfortable, it might be embarrassing, might be things you don't like. So those who control the pace of the conversation are the very ones who control themselves.

[A]

When I posted that we'd be having this conversation, I asked what some of the big challenges people have. Challenge our community wanted me to bring up was how they get emotionally triggered and they lose kind of control right in the heat of the moment. So many of us can be emotionally hijacked, if you will, and our brain goes into fight flight. Freeze. Do you have a go to strategy to kind of calm your nervous system so you could say calm, collected, clear headed, when everything in us wants to react right. It could be a family matter, it could be something at work, it'd be a potential, you know, client situation.

[B]

One would be realize what's happening in that moment. I know that's easier said than done, but you can do it because we all know that feeling of all of a sudden you bristle, the spikes come out, your body tenses, maybe your eyes start to water, maybe your breath gets heavier, maybe your, your muscles tense. That is your body saying in that moment, I, I'm ready to fight, I'm ready to say something hurtful, I'm ready to say something that stings all to make the threat go away or I'm ready to run from it. I want to hang up the phone, I want to slam the door and leave. In that moment, it is to realize it is my body that is driving the decisions right now. So two, the breath certainly helps. The breath is the number one way to regulate your system and communication to make sure that you stay calm. Three would be a technique that I like to use. It's beginning the phrase I can tell. Very easy to do. I can tell when you claim it, you control it. So if I'm feeling aggravated or I'm feeling defensive, if I. And our typical default is to then become and act out that defensiveness. That sounds like you can't, well, excuse me, you're going to talk to me like that. Me? What about you? And that is becoming defensiveness. If I say instead, I can tell I'm getting defensive, I can tell I'm feeling aggravated, I can tell I'm not ready for this conversation. Any of that kind of stuff is wonderful in, in being able to. Instead of acting out those behaviors which are detrimental to the conversation. Why? Because you're not in control of it, your emotions are. And second of all, it's like when I say I can tell, I can tell I'm not feeling myself right now. And it's best if we push this conversation to this afternoon. That is one, a huge sign of emotional intelligence. Two, a huge sign of self awareness. Three, it's like writing it out on a sheet of paper and now putting it out on the table in front of you. You're not becoming the feeling. You're aware of that feeling and now you're able to express it a whole lot more. Now Jefferson never becomes. Jefferson is defensive. Jefferson is feeling defensive. I have a wide range of emotions. Everybody does. And so it's just realizing in that moment I am, I am only feeling something. I am not becoming that something. So I can tell is a wonderful phrase, especially in, in conversation where you need to express it. Because when you express is a wonderful way of still Driving yourself rather than letting the emotions take the wheel.

[A]

I love these kind of. These quick little tips because it's kind of like a small hinge that could swing like a really large door. Right. There's a lot of leverage. Yeah, like small little things to get so much great return. It's like almost a force multiplier. The second, second challenge run by you is not knowing how to start a difficult conversation. A lot of people put them off, but something needs to be addressed or said in a family matter and a relationship at work, maybe a termination, some. Some kind of difficult conversation. I don't know if maybe we could give an example or something or a suggestion on how to circumvent that. Like, what's the big, biggest mistake people make when opening a difficult or tough conversation? And what would be the better way to kind of disarm that tension and create, like a, you know, psychological safety? In a world where everyone has access to the same information, the same tools, your mind is your own only true competitive advantage. But here's the reality. Most of us, we learned what to think in school. We learned a lot of facts and formulas and procedures, but nobody taught us how to think. That's exactly what quick thinking does in our flagship program. In just 21 days, three weeks inside, you'll discover how to think clearly under pressure instead of freezing up. How to accelerate your learning speed so it becomes your real superpower so you can adapt faster and than ever before. How to absorb and retain more information with less mental energy and effort. If you're ready to unlock your limitless mind, click the link on the screen. Stop letting unclear thinking hold you back from the life that you're truly capable of creating.

[B]

Our default when it comes to difficult conversations is feeling like we need to create this soft landing. That means we typically begin with small talk. Let's say you and I were in a work situation. Let's put that example. And let's say, Jim, by some. Some way, you worked for me somehow. So I'm the supervisor, you're the employee, and you come and sit down. I emailed you early. I said, we need to talk, which is the worst way to begin because it creates that anxiety nobody likes. We need to talk. It makes you automatically think, oh, no, something wrong is going on. So already I've created a tense situation there. You come and sit down in my office, and for anybody listening, tell me how you think of how you feel when you're about to hear this. You come and sit down. Jim. I say, hey, Jim, how are you? You good? How's the. The family? Kids doing okay? Yeah. Oh, this weather is. Is crazy, isn't it? Have you picked. Have you tried pickleball yet? You know, I did it the other day and it was good. Well, good. I'm glad to hear you. All right, so listen. There it is.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

That's. That's the phrase. So listen. And then I start dribbling it out. You know, you've just been such a wonderful team member. I'm talking in past tense now. We've really enjoyed, you know, getting to know you. Now here, here's the question. Is this kind to you? Do you. Do you feel like this is comfortable, or does this make you feel more anxious?

[A]

Definitely more. More anxious.

[B]

More anxious, for sure. Does it make you feel like anything I said before mattered at all? Did it sound like I really cared about how you were doing? No, it's all of this small talk workup. It's not to make the other person feel better. It's to make me feel better because I'm afraid to jump into it. I'm afraid of how you're going to respond. I still want you to like me. I'm afraid I'm going to. You're going to be disappointed with me. All of that stuff is incredibly unkind. I know it comes from a good place, but in conversation, communication, it really breeds a lot of contempt because they don't feel like you're being genuine. You're being transparent. So quick thing, instead of this small talk, I want you to label the conversation right out of the gate. And it is the effect of this. Like we talked about those hinge moments. How do you. How are you able to use them in a way that's going to increase and multiply the outcome that you want? We're going to label it right out of the gate. So instead of this, hey, how are you doing? You good? How's your family? You're going to come in, sit down, and I say, jim, this is going to be a difficult conversation, right? You're going to say something like, this is going to be hard for us to talk about. You're not going to like what I have to say. This might come as a surprise to you. This is going to be a. It's as easy as saying, this is going to be a difficult talk. Any of that.

[A]

Right?

[B]

There is a wonderful way of labeling what the journey is you and I are about to go on. I'm telling you right out of the gate, this isn't going to be fun. It's not going to be enjoyable. It's not going to be easy. So getting that out of the way is a wonderful way of being much more honest. So let's play it out. In that scenario, you come and sit down and I say, this is going to be a difficult conversation and what are you going to do? I'm going to give you a little second pause and you're going to take a breath and you go, okay. I mean, you're going to, naturally you're going to nod like, all right, I'm in it. That's when I'm going to tell you I, I need to let you go or I need to pull you from the project or I am giving you the takeaway right there. That's the takeaway. Then I can lead with the complimentary stuff. You've been a wonderful part of the team. I'm looking forward to see what's going on, what, what you have in your, the future of your career. So it's not going to be here. I mean, and let us know how I can help. I want to be a whatever. And same thing with like, if you're going to break up with somebody, you know, you, you need to have that talk. You stay, sit down instead of going, hey, you know what, you've just been so great and I've enjoyed getting to know you. They already know we're breaking up, like automatically. Of course we know that. But when you sit down and say, I need to, I need to have.

[A]

A hard talk with you again, something so simple that can make, you know, people have to have some little bit of behavioral change, you know, then a lot of it sounds like self awareness, like to be conscious and intentional about our communication. The question I like to ask, you know, all our guests is our podcast at its core is about really the love of learning. I'm curious, is there one thing that you're currently learning about or studying outside of this conversation that has you particularly excited?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, as a, I'm a parent. My wife and I have two kids, seven year old and a five year old. So right now my wife and I are really doing some meaningful work around better ways to be parents to say, okay, we want to, of course we don't want to repeat the mistakes of our parents just like they didn't want the repeat the mistakes of theirs. How can we build better communicators from the get go? How, how can we foster an environment in our home to teach them how to communicate, how to handle conflict, how to handle disagreements now, rather than Just telling them in college, that's not the way to do it. So it's formulating and fostering a safe space here. That's something we're very intentional about and enjoy focusing on.

[A]

Well, Jefferson, I really appreciate your time and your talent and I appreciate you having you on the show, sharing with our community. Where can people go deeper with your work or stay connected with you?

[B]

Well, they can go to any of my social medias. Instagram is probably my favorite. It's the one I'm most active on. Go jeffersonfisher.com for all of my platforms. I do have a school of communication, so it's a membership where I get to help people practice and I coach them. And the book? The book is wherever you can, wherever you like to find books. I have a link for it in my website. But, yeah, it's been a whole lot of fun getting to learn. This whole process of coming into my life as a trial attorney and being the communication teacher has been a wonderful blessing in my life. And to be able to share my time here with your quick community is just a cherry on top. So I am honored with my time with everybody. And yeah, I encourage you to come. Keep using your words.

[A]

Awesome. Quick brains. What a powerful conversation about conversations. If you've ever walked away from an argument thinking, you know, I wish I had said it better, or you stayed silent when you wanted to speak with strength and confidence and empathy, I think that this episode is your permission slip to do just that. And so I want to thank Jefferson for reminding us that every tough talk isn't the final word. Right. Is the first step towards the next conversation. So I want to challenge everyone to do something right now because I feel like sometimes we learn something and if we don't do something with, it just kind of stays there. Maybe this week, if you ever feel triggered or tempted to react or maybe shut down, to be able to pause, to be able to breathe, to be able to remember this episode and ask yourself, you know what? What would that future me say right now? And I feel like that's one of the ways we can move from reaction to, in a way, reputation. If you found today's episode valuable, I would challenge you. Also, take a screenshot of wherever you're consuming this and tag, Jefferson, tag me and share your big aha. Remember, when you teach something, you get to learn it twice. So your fans, your followers, your family, your friends get to benefit. You could certainly put a link to this. If you want to hear the extended version, join our YouTube where we put the extended beyond 20 minutes of the audio. This one was particularly long, and there's so much, so many gems in it. And so you could join our 1.8 million subscribers there. And just remember, you can't always control that first conversation, but you could always lead the next one. So until next time, be limitless.