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Kwik Brain with Jim Kwik
Ungifted: Redefining Intelligence in Education & Life with Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
00:19:53
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Welcome to Kwik Brain Bite Sized Brain Hacks for busy people who want to learn faster and achieve more. I'm your coach, Jim Kwik. Free your mind. Let's imagine if we could access 100% of our brain's capacity.
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I wasn't high, wasn't wired, just clear.
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I knew what I needed to do.
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And how to do it.
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I know kung fu. Show me. Welcome back, Kwik Brains. I'm your host and your brain coach, Jim Kwik. My guest today is someone who not only redefined intelligence, he really lived that journey. Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman was placed in special education as a child and labeled with a learning disability, much like I was. So this is a conversation I was really excited to have. But through perseverance, curiosity, and a deep sense of purpose, he went on to earn a PhD from Yale and become one of the most respected cognitive scientists in, in our time. In his bestselling book, Ungifted, which we're gonna talk about today, Scott makes a very powerful case that intelligence is not a fixed score. It's in fact dynamic, ever evolving expression of your unique mind. So whether you were the kid in the front row, the back of the class, or somewhere in between, this episode is for you. You really may discover that that being ungifted might just be your greatest gift. So welcome to the show, Scott.
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B
Oh, thanks. So great to be here. I love that intro. That was beautiful the way you worded that.
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A
Thank you. Maybe we could start. Your story begins with being labeled having a learning disability and then later testing into a gifted program. I wanted to start the conversation with how, how did that personal experience shape your, your mission to redefine intelligence?
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Kind of like everything completely shaped it. I've always been a kind of kid who, if I saw someone on the playground who was in the corner somewhere, kind of being left out, I would kind of beeline towards that person and be their friend, you know, and so even as young as I could be, I remember just being very like, interested in, in being with the other kids who were in special ed with me and, and just misfits and people who've been kind of written off. But me personally, I was placed in special education for a learning disability, for an auditory situation where they thought I was really stupid. And I was bullied quite a lot and quite confused because on the one hand I felt inside like I was smart or had greater potential, but then I also was like, who am I to question the authorities? You know? So it really created this dual, this dual identity in me where I had this Fire burning inside me. But no one cared to see it. Yeah, and, and, and, and there was a special moment where a teacher took me aside and asked me what I was still doing in special ed. And it really fueled me to take myself out and sign up for classes and challenge myself and see what my brain was capable of. I had no idea, I literally had no idea that I was capable of anything.
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A
You challenged the traditional idea of IQ as a fixed number for those who grew up defined by, let's say, test scores. What's a powerful reframe that you'd offer them today?
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B
You know, my redefinition of intelligence was this. I called it the theory of personal intelligence because I argued so much of the kind of intelligence that's measured on IQ tests is very impersonal. It's abstract puzzles, abstract everything. Analogies, holding things in working memory. You don't have the school psychologist asking you many questions about your own personal life and your personal dreams. And the first part of my book is about ability and all the different ways we can have multiple abilities that go beyond just what's measured on IQ test. But the second part of the book is all about motivation and engagement. And so my argument in that book is that our theories of intelligence have ignored the what's incredible that we can accomplish when we are dedicated to something and we have a dream. You know, so IQ tests really don't even take into account your dreams at all and your long term desires and visions.
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A
Have you found any surprising strengths that individuals with the trait adhd, dyslexia or other brain differences maybe bring in, bring to the table? It might be in creative or intellectual domains.
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B
Yeah, we can go through, to go down the line, you know, talking about each of them. ADHD is a, is a, is a fun one because I probably could be diagnosed with such. So I like that one. ADHD in. When you force people with ADHD to concentrate, it can be very, very difficult, especially if the information is boring and it requires lot of working memory capacity. But if you, if you allow a lot of these individuals to get in, engaged in a project on their own terms, give them their own structure to set up the structure you find there, they're often getting to this flow state which is this hyper focus, which is, it's so paradoxical because the very same people that maybe in a certain context would be viewed as having an inability to focus in a different context when they're really drawing on their own personal dreams and future vision actually show a hyperfocus. And I've read An article, I wrote an article for Scientific American about that called the Gifts of adhd, where I talk about the neuroscience of this. I know, I know you love neuroscience. I know you love neuroscience. So you'll like this. So much of the research on ADHD has focused traditionally on the executive attention brain network, which is about your ability to hold things in working memory and concentrate. But people with ADHD actually have a very, very active, what I call the imagination brain network or the default mode brain network. And researchers have ignored that. And so I kind of think that I proposed in that article that we should reframe ADHD to an overactive imagination disorder.
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A
I'm curious how one of our listene, if they feel stuck or they feel behind, how can they reconnect with their sense of personal potential?
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B
Yeah, well, first of all, let me say how I redefined it. Potential. A lot of people think of the word of the idea of potential as something fixed in time. You know, you have something like, you know, like LeBron James at age 5 had imprinted on his forehead he was going to be in the NBA, you know, and, and that we could somehow tell all this potential. But I think that we underestimate the extent to which potential grows over time and changes. I mean, I think the best way of thinking about potential from a scientific point of view, a real, a real, a real truthful point of view is that it's just probabilities at any moment in time. And by putting in that work and engagement and passion, you're, you're literally changing the probabilities. So I don't think people should feel hopeless at any given time, because I do think these probabilities can change over time. Now, of course, all the caveats apply. I mean, you are limited. Genetics matter. Some people were gifted certain genetics that give them an advantage in many areas, and there's no denying that. But the point about genetic potential is that you never know what your genetic potential is. You never know it. Why not check it out, right? Push yourself to the max to see, because you don't know. I mean, it would have been very easy for me to have called it quits, you know, when I was a kid. You too, you too, Mr. Quick. You could have called it quix. That's funny. You could have a little Freudian slip there. But you, you could have called quits. And there's also, there was something in me and you that an individual difference is variable, some personality trait or something that caused us to want to prove people wrong. And I write in my new if in my new book, Rise Above, I have a whole chapter on that called the Underdog Motivation. And that's a, that's a big motivation that causes a lot of minorities and underserved people to succeed.
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A
So if we were to do this like a thought experiment, if you were to redesign your entire school experience, let's say from kindergarten to college and beyond, and this is a deep conversation, so maybe you could just highlight a couple things, but what would you keep and what would you radically want to change?
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B
Well, my, my school system was, you know, endemic of a lot of other schools. So I can generalize it beyond just my school, I think for all schools, really recognizing the diversity of talents and interests that people can bring to the table. Not just talents. People are so focused on potential in sixth grade at age 12, and it's like, chill. That's what I would say to all these school systems. Why are you so obsessively focused on skills and ability and not looking for the seeds of growth, looking for the seeds of passion, the seeds of, of, of, of, of lots of different forms of potential that we may never realize? I have a friend, Kristin Stryker, who has a newsletter and she, she's trying to study the most passionate people on the planet, but she, she finds really quirky people who are like, have devoted their lives to what, what's one I saw recently, I thought was most interesting was like people who do extreme ironing. That's a thing. I mean, that's, they, there's a whole competition. People who do iron like on top of mountains and I don't know, I mean, but that's just one example. I mean, there's so many quirky things you haven't even heard of, Jim. And that I had certainly hadn't heard of. And that's their thing in life, you know. And who are we to say that a path to self actualization is not valid, that if you're not good at math, you're not good at reading, that you can't be a brilliant entrepreneur, a brilliant. You know, this is what we find with the dyslexic population. We find that such a high proportion of them end up becoming great CEOs, you know, and, and, and you interview that. And I interviewed them and I'd be like, well, why CEO? And they said, well, all the time that I didn't spend reading, I spent socially influencing people. So all of life's a trade off. Who are we to say what trade off is better for one person or another? You know what I mean?
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Yeah, everyone's individual. And it's interesting how nature nurture, how it influences us accessing more of that potential. If you could give every student and adult learner right because we're all students in the world just like one. I'm looking at your book Transcend which which I recommend like one transcendence tool. No app, no tech. It could be a mental model, it could be a question what comes top of mind for you? This is a special message and invitation for our students. I want to tell you about a revolutionary, unique, powerful and proven course to be able to upgrade your learning and your life. So not only can you get better grades, but you can do it in a fraction of the time for only 15 or 20 minutes a day for 30 days. I guarantee you you will be equipped with the best tools, tactics, resources and strategies to level up your learning. Go to quickbrain.com student use the code podcast15 and you'll get instant enrollment. As a thank you for listening to our show.
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B
A lot of people I think are afraid of succeeding. It's not they're afraid of failing, but they're afraid, you know, what if, what if I do succeed? What if I do become reach these goals and asking yourself, you know, learn to ask yourself powerful coaching questions not to wait for others to do that. You know, as trade as it sounds, I think the value of self belief is grossly underrated and believing in and trusting your own what you know about yourself and your own potential. It would have been very easy for me to keep listening to the experts and yet I, I was like, no, I think they're wrong, you know, and b, having the, the self confidence and the self trust that you know yourself better than other people know you, you've lived with yourself longer. Even if you're like 14 years old listening to this podcast, that's 14 years you've lived with yourself more than anyone else on this planet has. You know, even at that point, you know a lot about yourself and you see yourself and you see what you're capable of and you, you, you see even what dream you have. And so those are some, some passing things I would think of.
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I think I saw the term beautiful minds.
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It's been the name of my newsletters for the past 20 years for our.
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Online courses and certainly our live events that we do. We do an event called Limitless Live where we curate the most amazing faculty on brain performance and health and accelerated learning. We do a lot of games and competitions. And I'm curious, have you done research in the role play? Has in adult learning, creativity and how does play appear in your life, if it does at all.
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Wow. So, so huge. A lot of my earlier research was on play and no matter how old you are, being able to keep a playful attitude towards things and to have an keep your imagination alive and think about multiple perspectives or to even so to be playful with ideas is, is, is such an important contributor to great science, great art. Some high proportion of Nobel prize winners also have some interest in the arts and that research has shown that to be the case. And some research by my colleague Sandra Russ, looking at early childhood fantasy worlds. So kids that have had fantasy worlds or kids that have had imaginary friends, you know, sometimes that's treated as psycho, as pathological, but she's found that these individuals actually end up living rich, meaningful, creative lives. So I think we need to rethink the pathology of fantasy.
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A
As we wrap, I ask this question of guests. At its core, our show, 400 plus episodes is about the love of, of learning. And so I love asking this question outside of what we've talked about, is there one thing that you're currently learning about or studying that has you, that lights you up, that has you particularly excited?
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B
Yes, yes. I've really, I've gone into, I've started to get into sports psychology. We actually just announced today an event we're doing in the end of July, Unlocking athletic Excellence, two day event. And a lot of the stuff I've studied in my, in my career, I, I see how it can really be applied to coaches, athletic coaches of any age. So that might be my next, my next horizon, who knows. But it's something that's really letting me up right now for sure is applying, you know, all this mindsets, all the stuff we've talked about today, but specifically for youth athletic coaches who work with kids because high performance without, well, being high performance without self actualization. What is it? What is that? You know, you're just a machine, you know. So combining all of the things we're talking about today to, to live a rich and meaningful life and sports is I think great active potential activator of that.
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Yeah, yeah, I can see how that lights you up. I find that a lot of people struggle with like burnout and burnout in my perspective is not just because we're doing too much. Sometimes we're burnt out because we're doing too little of the things that make us come alive. Right. That really light us. As you're saying, passion combined with power and if you get out profit as a third p. Then you really could create a remarkable life there. And I mean, not just financial, but just all the treasures of your life. Scott, how can people go deeper? I'm sure so many people want to go deeper in your work, stay connected with you.
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B
Yeah, I mean, if anyone wants to send me a message, then go to scottberry kaufman.com and then I, you know, have the podcast, the psychology podcast, which I've been doing 11 years. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Like you. Over 400 episodes. And. And, you know, hopefully there's value. Something. Hopefully at least one of those episodes will offer someone value.
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A
Well, we'll link to your websites in the show notes, you know, as well as your books also. Also. As well, your. Are you on social media?
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I sure am. Yep. I'm on Twitter. I'm on Instagram. Follow me on Twitter and Instagram. Yeah. S.B. kaufman on Twitter and Scott Bray Kaufman on Instagram. Yeah.
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A
Well, I want to thank you so much, Scott, for coming on and sharing your time and your talent with us. I would challenge everyone to actually take a screenshot wherever you're consuming this and tag, Scott. Tag myself. So we get to see it and maybe share one. Aha. You know, because I feel like when you teach it and you post it, you get to learn it twice. Right. And your fans, your followers, your family, your friends get to benefit, you know, from. From that. Right. You learn to earn to. To return in this information, take advantage of the explanation effect and so much more. But, yeah, thank. Thank you for that. I also want to remind everybody that this episode went far beyond 20 minutes, that the audio is. So if you go to our YouTube channel and join 1.8 million subscribers, where we put the episode there also as well. And for me, this is really about. What if we took a pause and stopped asking ourselves how smart you are or how smart someone is and started asking, how. How are we smart?
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B
That's great.
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I feel like, you know, with. With Dr. Scott, he's reminding us that intelligence isn't fixed like your shoe size. Right. It's not a box to fit into. It's really a garden that you can cultivate. And just because your genius doesn't fit some standardized test doesn't mean it isn't real, that it isn't meaningful, and it isn't purposeful and powerful. So if this episode resonated with you or if you know someone who's ever felt overlooked or underestimated, share this conversation with them. You never know who might really need to hear this. And just quick reminder, your potential is not predetermined it's not fixed. It's a process of becoming. And so, Dr. Scott, thank you again for being on the show.
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Thank you. It was such an honor.
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And delight everyone, until next time, be limitless.