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LA Opera Podcasts: Behind the Curtain
The Real Housewives of Windsor: Falstaff and Feminism with Shawna Lucey and Gail Eichenthal
00:30:23
In this episode, Gail Eichenthal interviews the a…
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- [00:09]
Podcast Narrator
Welcome to behind the Curtain, LA Opera's official podcast. Each week we dive deep into the creative process with the artists, creatives and scholars who bring opera to life. Get ready to decode the drama, dissect the music and hear the heart behind the high notes. From backstage laughs to history making moments, every opera starts with a story. In this episode, Gale Eichenthal interviews the acclaimed opera director Shauna Lucey, who helms LA Opera's Falstaff. Shauna shares about how she came to opera from theatre, her long love affair with Falstaff and her formative training in Moscow. Experience Shauna's feminist perspective on Elizabethan society and find out why she says that Falstaff teaches us to love ourselves. Falstaff is playing now through May 10th at the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion. Get your tickets@laopera.org.
- [01:11]
Gail Eichenthal
Hello everyone and welcome to behind the Curtain. I'm your host Gail Eichenthal. On today's episode we are joined by the extraordinary opera and theater director Shauna Lucey, renowned for her memorable productions at San Francisco Opera, Houston Grand Opera, Santa Fe Opera as well as the Bolshoi Theater elsewhere internationally. We know her very well here at LA Opera for recent, greatly acclaimed productions of Verdi's La Traviata and Mozart's Cosi Fan Tute, and she is also General Director and CEO of Opera San Jose. She's here in LA this month directing Los Angeles Opera's production of Falstaff by Verdi, which runs April 18 to May 10 and at the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion. Tickets as always@laopera.org welcome to the podcast Shauna.
- [02:00]
Shauna Lucey
Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be talking with you today.
- [02:04]
Gail Eichenthal
We know it's a busy time as you're running rehearsals for Falstaff, so we'll try to be as efficient as possible. It's a very busy week for you. We love to begin these behind the Curtain podcasts by delving into our guests own opera or origin story. How did you first come to the world of opera?
- [02:24]
Shauna Lucey
Oh Gail, I love that question. So I come from theater and when I was doing my MFA in stage direction I was speaking with my directing mentor and I said I had been working at this other theater for many years and I was kind of tired and done with working there and I wasn't really sure what to do with myself. And she said, you know, you speak a couple of foreign languages and you read music. You should really look into directing opera. And I thought, well my goodness, I don't know one thing about opera actually. So I applied for every job I could find. And the job I got was as a technical apprentice at the Santa Fe Opera. And not knowing one thing about what a stroke of luck that was, off I went to Santa Fe and my job was to work with the orchestra. So our first task was to set up for an orchestra read. So, you know, setting up all the music stands and the chairs for the musicians and support whatever the musicians needed for the rehearsal. And what was it? A reading of Verity's Falstaff. And so, you know, here we are, the players were coming in, and here comes the maestro, and he starts the rehearsal. And I mean, I was shocked. I was in love. It was incredible. I thought if I could spend my directing career dedicated to this, wow, what a life. So I like to say it was love at first note. This is very special to me. Falstaff Hack has remained my favorite opera over almost 20 years of working in opera now. So anytime I get my hands on this masterpiece, it's a great day for me.
- [04:06]
Gail Eichenthal
Looking at your biography, I was so struck by the juxtaposition of some of the places you trained. As you mentioned languages, degrees in Italian and theater from UT Austin, and then across the world to Moscow.
- [04:23]
Shauna Lucey
Yes.
- [04:24]
Gail Eichenthal
That's not the most obvious leap.
- [04:26]
Shauna Lucey
Yes, true.
- [04:27]
Gail Eichenthal
How did that come about? And what were you doing there in Moscow?
- [04:31]
Shauna Lucey
Yes, I love that. So I get this question a lot. I am not Russian, to be clear, so I am originally from Houston, Texas, and when I was in high school, I became obsessed with Chekhov. I loved the Moscow Art Theater. I loved the history. I loved Stanislavski. I thought it was totally fascinating. I knew I wanted to do theater my whole life. And I had this dream of stuff studying in Russia. And so when I was an undergrad at ut, I found a program where you could go and study at the Moskowa Theater for a whole semester. And I went, and it was magnificent. You got in one semester a concentrated version of what they do for the first year students at mkhat. So it was transformative for my identity as an artist, and I loved every minute of it. So then I moved to New York City, and I was doing plays, working in theaters, really going for it, and I decided it was time to do my mfa. So I looked all around the United States, and I was very dissatisfied with the training that was available for stage directors. And so I thought, oh, goodness, you know, I'll just go back to Russia. I'll learn Russian and I'll go to school there. Because the Russian theater training program really is the best in the world, especially for the craft of directing. So, I mean, I'm like to say I'm really glad I did it and I'm so glad I never have to do it again because it is not for the faint of heart to move yourself to Moscow and pursue a graduate degree. And I'm proud to be one of just a couple of Americans who have ever done so. Yeah.
- [06:14]
Gail Eichenthal
Wow. What do you think those years in Russia did for you as an artist and as a director? I know it's probably hard to summarize in 25 words or less, but yes,
- [06:26]
Shauna Lucey
it was a profound experience. I understand myself much more as a global citizen. I also really was immersed in a culture where the arts, and especially the performing arts really matter. In communist Russia, when religion was taken away, Stalin said, well, they can go to the theater. And there still remains a voracious appetite for theater consumption in Russia. And Russians are fluent in all forms of art, whether it be liter literature, music, opera, ballet. They are fervent consumers for the performing arts. So that was a great privilege. I also caught a lot of the great Soviet theater directors. Their plays were still being performed. And I still think and draw upon those revelations of choices they made in interpreting those great Soviet pieces. The level of significance that art and performing artists have in Russia cannot be understated. The training is of the utmost seriousness. Artists are considered to be important leaders in society, more evolved, and therefore have an important role to play in Russian society. There's a million things I could say about my time there. And of course, this is a very difficult time in the history of Russia and especially U.S. russian relations, which have for many generations been very complicated. And so that's a whole other podcast, at least one. Yes.
- [08:05]
Gail Eichenthal
On a lighter note, we turn back to Verdi's Falstaff. And you know, it's funny that you mentioned this being sort of your introduction to opera, because I think most people find opera through an aria from Madame Butterfly or Visidarte or, you know, Turandat Pavarotti. This is really sort of an opera lover's opera. James Conlan chose it as one of the final productions of his final season as music director because of his passion for the opera and because of the incredibly beautiful, warm vibe. And I guess probably after you learned more of operatic repertoire in your training, you realize that Verity Svostavana is not really a typical Verdi opera.
- [08:58]
Shauna Lucey
Yes, it is so true. I am always shocked that more people don't passionately love Falstaff as much as I do. And I can tell you through this Process. I think Maestro Conlon has been extremely tickled at how much I love the opera because I know almost every word and I know, like, almost every note, like, I'm singing along. And I have apologized to him a number of times in rehearsal. Like, I feel like a total nerd about this opera because I love it so passionately, but it has everything you could possibly want. Verdi at his finest. I mean, his zenith. It's his last opera, and so you have everything of his. All of his incredible pieces are, like, in there. His birth of artistic expression. But it is the zenith in so many ways. Plus comedy, plus Shakespeare. I mean, hello, this is, like the greatest of the greatest of the greats. I really cannot speak highly enough of it. Like I said, always shocked, because, you know, it's like an easy first opera to love. It's an easy. In. Like, you think about the first half, it goes by in a blink of an eye. And Craig, who plays Falstaff, and I were talking about how every time we do Falstaff, it feels like it gets shorter. I know that sounds, like, totally crazy, but it is very true that it's like, you think of, okay, here's the first scene. And then when I staged it, I was like, oh, gosh, we just did, like, we did it, you know, and then we ran through it, and it does get tighter and faster. And that's kind of, you know, the beauty of comedy.
- [10:38]
Gail Eichenthal
Yes, and this is definitely a comedy. There's tremendous tenderness in the dealing of the character. And I wanted to just kind of focus in on the character Falstaff, one of the great characters in all of Shakespeare, obviously from Merry Wives of Windsor, which this is based on. But also he makes a huge appearance in Henry IV Part one and Part two. And it seems like this is a, if you'll pardon the expression, rounder characterization of Falstaff in a way, from those.
- [11:12]
Shauna Lucey
Yeah, I think that's very true. What I love about this opera is not only is it the highest kinds of comedy and the lowest kinds of comedy, there's, like, plenty of slapstick available to us, and Verdi scores it perfectly. But Falstaff himself, he is this great philosophical leader, and it is so full of philosophical thought in a way that I'm a great, passionate lover of comedy. In fact, in Russia, one of my master teachers who sadly just very recently passed away, I think of him often. Igor Zolotovitsky. He was the leading comedic actor in Moscow and Russia. And there's not a separation between film and theater the way there is here. If you do one, you do them all in Russia. And Eager was like, it's hard to describe how important he was. He was like the Robin Williams of Russia. And my master teachers were like, you know, the thing about. The thing about tragedy is that it's gray. And so the audience, if you get close enough, the audience is generous, they'll go with you. Comedy is a bullseye. Either you hit it or you don't. Right. And Falstaff, he manages to hold both in this incredible goblet of a character. And there are a couple of things that I love to highlight about Falstaff. We talked a lot about this about in the rehearsal process. So he is, I think, the forefather of self love. Right. So Falstaff loves himself so profoundly, and he tells us that in the first scene, he gets a bill for how much he's been spending at the inn, and obviously he does not have the money to pay for it. And his response is, my God, if I don't have access to all of this rich and great food and wine, I'm tragedy of all tragedies. I could become skinny, and then I would not be my immense and magnificent self. And he teaches us to absolutely love ourselves and even beyond that as a character. Okay, so maybe the other characters win all of these, you know, small battles, but Falstaff wins the war of this comedic opera when he says, okay, fine, you know, you might have tricked me a couple of times over, but in fact, I am not only full of mirth, but I am the cause of mirth in others. And aren't you fortunate to be out here having this great time because of me?
- [13:59]
Gail Eichenthal
It's very touching.
- [14:00]
Shauna Lucey
Yeah.
- [14:01]
Gail Eichenthal
That he finds that humanity in himself. I remember when you directed Josef Fran Tute here just over a year ago, there was a video interview with LA Opera where you mentioned that with that opera, which of course, sort of the men against the women, if you will.
- [14:19]
Shauna Lucey
Yeah.
- [14:19]
Gail Eichenthal
But that, the way that you look at that, and really all the opera productions that you direct, you bring a feminist perspective, a feminist lens. And it would be interesting to find out how that shapes this production of Falstaff, because once again, as you mentioned, the word slapstick, there's sort of a lot of these sort of old fashioned. Oh, we'll get the girls.
- [14:43]
Shauna Lucey
Yes, of course. Yes. I found a wonderful essay years ago when I was researching just Falstaff and Merry Wives of Windsor in general. And in the research, you know, if you think about. So there's lore that we know Falstaff from the Henry plays and that Elizabeth I had loved the character so much, she begged Shakespeare to write another play in which we encounter the character of Falstaff. Now, of course, that is probably just a rumor, but if you think about Merry Wives of Windsor and what the underlying story is, there's an important element of Elizabethan society that is worth touching on. So in Elizabethan society, the wives held the strings of the purse of the household, so they managed all of the finances, they controlled the finances of the household. And, you know, all through Elizabeth I's reign, she was plagued with doubts because she was a woman. And of course, she is one of the strongest leaders in the history of England, many times over. But. But regardless of her ability to do that job, of run that country, be the queen, she was always plagued by those assumptions. She wasn't up to the task. And so we find in Merry Wives of Windsor, of course, the women are running circles around all of the men, not just John Falstaff, all of the men. And it's Shakespeare's way of reminding England itself that of course, women are tasked with being in charge of the entire household. So of course they are able to run the country. And that's a theme that we find ourselves battling with. Yet even today in the United States, women in positions of power. So there are great opportunities for feminist interpretation, and we find that inherent in the Shakespeare as well as the Verdi.
- [16:42]
Podcast Narrator
There's still time to reserve your seats for LA Opera Connects Noah's flood on Friday, May 8 at the Cathedral of Our lady of the Angels right here in downtown Los Angeles. Performed by both aspiring and professional musicians, singers and dancers, this uplifting, family friendly opera is one you don't want to miss. Join the tradition and reserve your free tickets@laopera.org Noah's flood.
- [17:11]
Gail Eichenthal
The end of the opera is a fugue. And it's interesting to look at some correspondence between Verdi and his librettist, Arigo Boito. And he said, I've got a fugue. And I think that Boito thought he was crazy at first. And no, he really does have a fugue. And it's tutto ne mundo el buro. Your Italian's a lot better than mine. Basically, all the world is a joke.
- [17:35]
Shauna Lucey
Yeah, it's a reminder, you know, again, thinking about Falstaff, the character himself, we talk about him in the rehearsal hall. He's voracious for everything. He's voracious for women and wine and food and life itself. And he drinks life up without a sense of pride, without a sense. He tells the Guys who work for him. What is this word? Honor? It's not going to save you. And even when we find Falstaff in his lowest moment at the top of the second half, and he's really, really on the verge of depression, a glass of warm wine reminds him of how beautiful life is. The stars, the universe, nature itself. My goodness, aren't we fortunate to be alive? And that idea of tuttun el mondo e burla, I think it's not just, oh, you know, don't take anything seriously. Everything is a joke. It's much more a minder not to take ourselves too seriously. In fact, you know, I said when we started this process, why do falstaff today in 2026? What does it. What does it give us in a. In a grander sense? And one of the things that is most wonderful about directing it, but also crazy frustrating, is that, you know, in most operas you have scenes where, okay, it's an aria or here's a duet, or, you know, at the most, you're here, four people singing together. If you have these large ensemble pieces of music, they're. They're few and far between. And so if a singer has a release because they've got to go do other rehearsals or they have a different performance, you can work that schedule out. With Falstaff, it becomes immensely challenging because every scene requires all of the characters, and they're all singing in such resplendent glory. Isn't that a wonderful answer to today? Because so much of our modern life is about being alone on our phone, we feel alienated from each other. We find interactions to be difficult or strange. Verity's Falstaff, especially the fugue that you're talking about, reminds us what is the most powerful thing we can do. Be together, work together, make something beautiful together. And that is the power of opera itself. I love my work as a general director and as a stage director, but as a general director, every time we do a performance, I think, my goodness, it's a miracle because it takes such a wide diversity of people to make an opera possible. If you think about from the orchestra to the folks working backstage, to the person who made the wigs, to the person who did the contracting, to the person who made the marketing, to the person who's on stage, the singing so beautifully, to the audience members that we welcome, who are all wildly different, my goodness, isn't it an act of the affirmation of life that we dedicate ourselves to this art form? And Verdi's Falstaff is that in spades.
- [20:46]
Gail Eichenthal
We're a young company, L.A. opera debut was 1986.
- [20:52]
Shauna Lucey
Fantastic.
- [20:52]
Gail Eichenthal
When you look back on San Francisco Opera, the Metropolitan Opera and many other cities in the U.S. as you know, not to mention across the pond, what do you take away from working with LA Opera? I mean, is this an opera town at last?
- [21:06]
Shauna Lucey
Oh, yes. Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. I, you know, so I have an au pair and. Which is wonderful. And so last year we had a different au pair and I was trying to, she's from Madrid and I was explaining to her, you know, be going to Los Angeles for my project and et cetera. And so we drove into where our Airbnb was and I pointed to her that, you know, there were like the street sign flags that were advertisements for the cozy and woo. She was very impressed. You know, I think of Los Angeles as cutting edge as absolutely always on the forefront of what is cool. And when I had to beg and, you know, get down on my hands and knees and say, please could I have a ticket for Akhenaten? Because it was completely sold out. And of course, you know, when you're a visiting artist, you, you can always go and see what, what the other shows are and see the other artists, et cetera. I thought, good for LA opera. What a town, what a company. It is a great time for opera in general. What the research is showing us is that there is a hunger for the art form. We have more first time single ticket buyers kind of more than ever. People are interested in the experience and having a great time when they come because opera is really cool and is totally amazing. And so I think of LA as such a hip town. And so of course people know if you want to be cool, you come to the opera. I mean, can I also just give like a slight shout out? So I'm also a huge fan of the Real Housewives, like almost all of the franchises, you know, they're in like many cities. And I'm a huge fan, of course, of Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. And LA Opera, of course has a Real Housewife, one of the most amazing new real Housewives, Bozema St. John, on the board because of course La Opera is so cool. And Bozema is amazing because, you know, in order to be, you know, they introduce new housewives pretty frequently and most people fail. You've got to be a special kind of woman to be successful at being a real housewife. And Bozema Bowes, so glorious, so beautiful, and of course part of L. A Opera.
- [23:35]
Gail Eichenthal
This is the most Obvious question in the world, why isn't there yet an opera on the Real Housewives?
- [23:41]
Shauna Lucey
Oh, my God, please don't even tempt me. I mean, it is like, operatic in scale, those shows. Absolutely. I mean, one might say Falstaff is like the Real Housewives of Windsor.
- [23:57]
Gail Eichenthal
Perfect. I'm gonna go dash off a libretto right now.
- [24:01]
Shauna Lucey
Yeah, exactly.
- [24:02]
Gail Eichenthal
I gotta go. When LA Opera's not producing main stage productions like Falstaff, as you know, the company is a leader in the field of arts and health, has been for some years. And we have an annual arts and health summit coming up in June. And I just wondered, in your own life, how does music support your health?
- [24:21]
Shauna Lucey
I love that. I think that the power of music cannot be denied. And we see that. We see that in times in which either you're struggling physically or mentally. What do we turn to? We turn to the comfort of music. And, you know, the mind body connection is something that we think a lot about as artists. You know, in acting school and music school. Right. You think of opera singers, their. Their body is their instrument, and we know that our minds and bodies are connected. And so being able to access music is so important, I think, for anyone who's in any kind of health journey. And so I have always utilized music. Music, and I've utilized. I love to go on a long walk and being able to take the time to listen to opera, because that's my job, is one of the greatest parts of my life. And so it's amazing that LA Opera works in that field. Really concentrates on the way that music can support health and especially operatic music, because it is transformative and it is. It does transport you outside of what might be your current situation, which often is the kind of respite that you need if you're facing a health challenge.
- [25:45]
Gail Eichenthal
Yeah, mental health. Physical health.
- [25:46]
Shauna Lucey
Yes.
- [25:47]
Gail Eichenthal
Thank you for that. Well, listen, this has just been delightful to talk to you.
- [25:53]
Podcast Narrator
Oh, it's such a pleasure to talk
- [25:55]
Gail Eichenthal
with you and everything else. Because this is an audio feature. Our listeners sadly cannot see your exquisite, spectacular nails. But at 29 flames your Instagram, they can. And you have to just give us a couple of words on how you became this wearer of nail art.
- [26:18]
Shauna Lucey
A nail boss. Yeah. We could do some asmr, probably. That's the sound of my nails clicking. So I have always been a maximalist in my preference for fashion and design. And, you know, it's like you went. I went into opera. Chicken, egg. We wonder. And I'm a huge fan of nail art, always. And I Just started really getting into it, like, a decade ago and have worked with incredibly talented nail technicians. And so my set right now, quite long and pointy, but I'll say it's bejeweled. We've got lots of color. But most importantly, on my two index fingers, I have a cameo on each finger. I especially procured these cameos and brought them to my wonderful nail tech. And one cameo is for Eliche, and one is for Meg. These are my Falstaff nails. I always try to do them in a theme for the show that I'm working on, which isn't always totally obvious. Cause I like to be very creative. And. And when I moved to San Jose, I was very worried. I thought, oh, my God, will I be able to find someone to do my nails leaving New York City and my nail tech there? And I found this wonderful woman who. She can do anything. And so we came up with this set in honor of the Merry Wives of Windsor.
- [27:46]
Gail Eichenthal
We also are always curious of our guests. If there's a song in your heart, a song stuck in your head, obviously Falstaff's there, but what else do you have room for these days?
- [27:59]
Shauna Lucey
Well, so right now I am listening again. I had really passionately consumed Dochi's mixtape Alligator Bites Never Heal. I am very into playing music for my daughter. So my daughter is four and a half years old, and we both love music, and I don't really concentrate on just kids music. So she's got a wide range of taste, including, you know, we get a little bit of Ride of the Valkyrie in there, which she loves. And then we get some Dochi, and then we might do some Waltz of the Flowers. And I've brought that back because there are a few songs on that mixtape that my daughter is really obsessed with, and so she was asking for them. And while we've been here in Los Angeles, on the days off, I've been taking her around. We went to the Getty Museum, which she loved. We had so much fun looking at the art and talking about art. And, you know, it's great when you're in traffic. No problem. We've got lots of tunes that we're getting into.
- [29:05]
Gail Eichenthal
So I think she's going to be an opera lover.
- [29:08]
Shauna Lucey
I think so, too. She often says to me, she's ready to come and be the boss of the opera. And I, you know, I'm like, I really appreciate that. Maybe we'll do kindergarten first.
- [29:21]
Gail Eichenthal
Shauna, it's been just a joy having you on behind the Curtain today. Likewise for everyone. Listening. Be sure to catch Falstaff at the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion, directed by Shawna Lucey and conducted by maestro James Conlon, April 18 through May 10. Tickets available at LA Opera.org Falstaff is
- [29:42]
Podcast Narrator
playing now through May 10 at the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion. Get your tickets at LA Opera. Don't forget to like, comment and subscribe to behind the Curtain wherever you listen to podcasts and share this episode with your friends on your favorite social media. Did you know that, as a nonprofit, LA Opera relies on charitable donations from arts lovers just like you? Learn more about how your support brings our stage to life@laopera.org donate we can't wait to see you at the Opera.