← Last Podcast On The Left
Last Podcast On The Left
Black Phone 2: An Interview with Scott Derrickson
00:45:58
The boys sit down with modern master of supernatural horror Scott Derrickson for a SPOILER-FREE discussion about his newest project, Black Phone 2 (in theaters October 17th), the real-world crimes that inspired the sinister world of Black Phone, the instant iconic appeal of Ethan Hawke as The Grabber, and much, much more!
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- [00:03]
Interviewer 1
Well, today we have a very special guest. We have a modern master of supernatural horror. We have director Scott Derrickson, director of Black phone, Black Phone 2, Doctor Strange, Sinister, the Exorcism of Emily Rose. Black Phone 2 is of course your next movie out, sir. How are you today?
- [00:23]
Scott Derrickson
I am great. Very happy to be here with you cheerful fellows.
- [00:29]
Interviewer 1
Cheerful? No, we haven't been described as cheerful.
- [00:31]
Interviewer 2
Not a long time normally, like I've been. People told me that I'm fatter than they thought.
- [00:40]
Scott Derrickson
I would not use the word dower to describe what I've seen thus far.
- [00:44]
Interviewer 2
Thank you, sir. Can I ask you a straight up, if you love Ethan Hawke so much, why don't you marry him?
- [00:51]
Scott Derrickson
I have married him. That's what this is about, right? It's about my marriage to Ethan. I love Xenoch so much, I would marry him, but he's already married and so am I. So we just make movies together, open it up.
- [01:05]
Interviewer 2
It always works.
- [01:08]
Scott Derrickson
Never doesn't work. Nothing bad happens when you open up a marriage, it always works out.
- [01:16]
Interviewer 2
You have an amazing horror icon on your hands with Ethan. Thank you. As the Grabber.
- [01:23]
Interviewer 1
My God, isn't he awesome?
- [01:24]
Scott Derrickson
He's so awesome.
- [01:25]
Interviewer 2
It is just when you go about, like when you started making this process, like when you were. Because you worked on Hellraiser films, if you've worked with horror icon IP style before and then you created an original sort of character like that in Sinister 2. When you are in Black Phone, when you're creating the Grabber, is there like a conversation about this is like a horror icon that's going to stick around and how do we build this out?
- [01:51]
Scott Derrickson
I mean, you can't think about it that way. What I will say is that I didn't think much about the mask at all. And I came late to that party because I had written the script for the first movie. We were in pre production and I remember sitting down at my desk very early on, like the first week, and I was looking at. I was like, okay. And it hit me all at once. I was like, holy shit, if this mask isn't awesome, this movie will fail. Yeah, it's. The mask is what they're going to market with. Ethan's wearing it in every scene. And so I think I had eight weeks of pre production and I spent most of that time working on that mask, coming up with what it would be and getting the details right and the idea of splitting it in half and all that, because it was. It wasn't until we were in pre production that I realized how important. But you don't start off going, I'm gonna make a horror icon. I mean, you can do that, but it won't work. You know, you have to make a great movie and have some good design in it, and if you're lucky, it works. And then, you know, in this case, it's playing out pretty well. Yeah.
- [02:57]
Interviewer 1
I mean, the idea of changing out the bottom of the mask to reflect his emotions, that's my favorite part of the characters. You know, going from frowny grabber to smiley grabber.
- [03:08]
Interviewer 2
Right when I frowned in black phone 2. I like chee like that.
- [03:18]
Scott Derrickson
And you got a little of the no mouth, you know, in there as well. You know, don't forget the faceless. The mouthless mask.
- [03:24]
Interviewer 2
Well, I didn't want to do any spoilers. Technically, it's my favorite grabber. Yeah, no, mouth grabber is kind of my favorite grabber.
- [03:31]
Scott Derrickson
Yeah, no mouth. No mouth grabber. It's like the. It's like that kid in. In the Twilight Zone movie. It takes his sister's mouth away. I think it probably came from that.
- [03:41]
Interviewer 2
That haunted me, that scene for my entire childhood. That movie scared the shit out of me.
- [03:48]
Scott Derrickson
Oh, it's terrifying. It's great movie, but it is very upsetting when you're. You see that. If you see that movie too young, which most people do, you have, like.
- [03:56]
Interviewer 2
A concurrent theme in a lot of your movies about, like, a youthful vision of what is frightening. Of, like, from a perspective almost of, like, what is frightening.
- [04:08]
Scott Derrickson
Like when.
- [04:09]
Interviewer 2
When you go to write a horror movie, especially in stuff like this, do you just, like, are these images from your head that you put forward into the movie? How do you capture so well that idea of something that's inherently frightening, objectively frightening? Something that's almost from our nightmares?
- [04:29]
Scott Derrickson
Yeah. You know, it's funny, different directors, different horror directors would answer that question very differently. You know, everybody's different. And I think some of my favorite horror directors are kind of puppet masters. They love. They love the manipulation of it. They're very clever and very craftsmanlike with it. And I come at it from the position or the perspective of trying to find something that scares me. Like, if it scares me, I'm a pretty good audience member. If I find it frightening, I expect other people to find it frightening. So I always work from that place. I just keep working at stuff until it's scary to me. And I'm like, you know, there's some images in Black Phone too, that even as I was working, you know, on the sound Mix. I'd seen some of these shots, you know, hundreds of times, and every time I'd see, I'd be like, oh, God, that's so wrong. You know?
- [05:25]
Interviewer 2
Well, I know that these movies are very personal to you. Black Phone and Black Phone 2.
- [05:29]
Scott Derrickson
They are. They are very personal. That's true. Yeah. It definitely. It definitely is. All stemming from. From my childhood and middle school and high school years.
- [05:40]
Interviewer 1
Yeah. Because you're. You're from Denver, correct?
- [05:43]
Scott Derrickson
I am, yeah. I'm from north Denver. I'm in from. I really did the best I could in the first movie to recreate the feeling of the neighborhood I grew up in. Yeah.
- [05:51]
Interviewer 2
Is that from like, you're from, like. No. He La Di.
- [05:56]
Scott Derrickson
So I have no idea what you just did.
- [06:01]
Interviewer 2
You know how, like, in Denver, it's all like, they have like, no pasa. They have like, all the crazy. Like they have the acronyms for all the new.
- [06:09]
Scott Derrickson
Oh, no. I grew up in. That's what that was.
- [06:12]
Interviewer 2
Yes.
- [06:15]
Scott Derrickson
You had a lot of faith. You had a lot of faith in me that I would get that. Hey, we got there after you explained what it was. No, I grew up in an area called Shaw Heights and Federal Heights in north Denver. So it was this kind of working class, kind of grim, you know, more on the outskirts kind of area. And. And, you know, the thing I worked hardest for sounds so weird, but the chain link fences weren't the main thing I really wanted to focus on in the first movie. The way they always had the spiky tops on them. And I just. People were getting ripped on those all the time and cut on them, you know, and. And there was a lot of bleeding that went on when I was a kid from everybody, you know, it was just kind of that. That was the neighborhood, you know.
- [07:02]
Interviewer 1
Were there any, like, crimes when you were a kid that kind of inspired anything about the grabber?
- [07:07]
Scott Derrickson
Oh, oh, yeah, for sure. I spoke to one of the Manson murderers on the phone when I was like, eight, because I spoke to Susan Adkins on the phone because my mother had done a handful of freelance, not for pay book reviews for the Denver Post. And one of them was this book that Susan Atkins had wrote called Child of Satan, Child of God. And she wrote a book review of it. I don't know if it ever was printed, but Susan Atkins called our house. I was 8. And I answered the phone and my mom wasn't home, so I chatted with her for a little. And of course, at that time, I knew what the Helter Skelter, the movie had come out and the book was very popular. Kids in my school were reading it, which is crazy. And. But also, Ted Bundy had just killed a bunch of women in Colorado when I was a kid. And he escaped in Colorado. That was when he jumped out the window of the law library.
- [08:08]
Interviewer 2
Yeah, he was full berserker mode. Then he ran down to Florida.
- [08:12]
Scott Derrickson
And there's also this. I shouldn't say this with a smile. I think I was 9 or 10, I don't remember exactly what year. But my next door neighbor knocked on my door and I opened it and he said, someone murdered my mom. And that was. That had happened and his mother had been kidnapped and sexually assaulted and bound up in telephone wire and thrown in the local lake. And the satanic panic was happening and kids were getting. The milk carton thing was starting. I think the feeling of like you're gonna die from a. From a strange killer was just everywhere when I was a kid.
- [08:55]
Interviewer 2
You just fully explained the vibe of all of your films.
- [08:57]
Interviewer 1
Yeah, yeah.
- [08:59]
Scott Derrickson
I think there's a lot of truth to that. Yeah. Yeah.
- [09:01]
Interviewer 1
I mean, I would imagine the, the. The Paperboy and Black Fox. I mean, that's a. Is that a Johnny Gosh reference, you know, with the dog and so on?
- [09:09]
Scott Derrickson
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That was probably where that came from. I don't remember. It was. The sense of kids being snatched was a real thing. And it was happening in Denver at that time, in north Denver at that time. And of course, the satanic panic thing, a lot of that wasn't real, but the abduction phenomenon was very real. And the stranger danger, that's the phrase of the mid-70s to early 80s, that idea of cops coming to your school and talking to you about how you avoid, you know, getting. Getting killed by a. By a strange person who steals you into their van. Yeah.
- [09:49]
Interviewer 2
And then sometimes though, they.
- [09:50]
Scott Derrickson
Some.
- [09:51]
Interviewer 2
Every once in a while, they do take you to Los Angeles and you do lead an incredible life. But it's a very small percentage. Very, very small.
- [09:59]
Scott Derrickson
Every once in a while. Worth it.
- [10:02]
Interviewer 2
Worth it. Do you feel like you're so. When you're making this movie, when you're talking, when you're creating the Grabber, like, does all of this feed into it like Black Phone 2? I'm not going to probably say this is not a too much of a spoiler, but there's a little bit more into the grabbers past.
- [10:22]
Scott Derrickson
Oh, yeah. I mean, I think that you have to do that. You know, I think that the balance you got to strike if you're going to try to make a good horror sequel is you can't just regurgitate the first movie and, you know, and sort of give people the same thing in a different. In a different package, but essentially the same experience. We've seen, we've all seen horror sequels like that, and they're pretty unsatisfying. But the other mistake you can make is veering too far off, you know, and doing something that's too. Too off the mark of what people liked about the first one.
- [10:55]
Interviewer 1
So it's always an option. You can always put it in space.
- [10:59]
Scott Derrickson
Well, that space is where you go when you've run out of ideas is. No, you know, that's when. When you get desperate, go to space, you know, and. Because it never. It never doesn't work. Every. Every. Although I do think the Kill and I. Is it. Which is the, which is the Friday the 13th that. That has the, the Frozen face kill is that.
- [11:20]
Interviewer 2
I think that's Jason X. I think.
- [11:22]
Scott Derrickson
It'S Jason X that. That Frozen might be my favorite serial killer kill in film history. It's incredible.
- [11:30]
Interviewer 2
Jason X breaks the space spell. That's what I do believe. I think it breaks the curse.
- [11:36]
Scott Derrickson
That's the one.
- [11:37]
Interviewer 1
Although I'm always. I have a soft spot in my heart for Critters four, but that's just me.
- [11:42]
Scott Derrickson
Okay.
- [11:43]
Interviewer 2
You know, that is literally just him. When you. Is there a difference? Like, obviously there's a difference besides just the money and respect of making your own sequel to your own hit film and then making. Or when you made Hellraiser early on in your career, like, what are the major differences besides everything?
- [12:05]
Scott Derrickson
I mean, you know, that first movie was, you know, the Hellraiser movie that I did. I did because I got a chance to make a movie and I did it, you know, and, and, and it, you know, it has a. It's developed a pretty nice little cult following. You know, there's a lot of people who really like that movie who are fans of the. Fans of the franchise.
- [12:24]
Interviewer 2
No, Hellraiser has. My favorite. Is my favorite franchise.
- [12:27]
Scott Derrickson
Yeah. Oh, that tells me a lot about you. So, so Hellraiser 5 is. It's probably either your third favorite in the franchise or like your ninth favorite in the franchise. That's my experience with most Hellraiser fans about that one, you know, but it was.
- [12:47]
Interviewer 2
When you're dealing with existing IP that you're like versus the stuff you created, what exactly are like the differences there, like, in terms of, you know, working.
- [12:59]
Scott Derrickson
With existing IP is. Is. Is always the primary Challenge I think of doing that, you know, is to figure out to. To what degree can I respect this, to what degree can I venture out on my own? And I mean, even with Dr. Strange, I think that probably one of the reasons why I got that job was because I like. I like the comics so much. And I particularly like Steven Ditko's early renderings of the visuals that he drew were art. I mean, high art in my opinion. And still my favorite comic book panels are from those early Ditko Doctor Strange comics. And a lot of what I did in that movie was directly pulled from there, you know, so if you've got IP that you're in love with that, you know, then. Then you look at like what Zack Snyder did with 300, you know, I think I heard a story about him meeting the first production meeting. He just held up the book by Frank Miller and said, we're making this. And he. And that's what he did, you know, So I think that, you know, with Hellraiser, honestly, I wasn't a big fan of the franchise. I really loved Barker's original film. I thought Barker's first movie, there's nothing, there's still nothing like it. There's a transgressive alien, like sci fi, mystical, religious, just super transgressive quality to that movie that doesn't feel like anything else that's ever been made. Yeah, you know.
- [14:31]
Interviewer 2
Yeah. And then Hellraiser 3, you got CD head, then you got CD head flying.
- [14:36]
Scott Derrickson
Through the club and then you got his face.
- [14:39]
Interviewer 2
I love that shit, man.
- [14:42]
Scott Derrickson
And then after that they were like, let's call Derrickson. He's never made a movie.
- [14:49]
Interviewer 2
Were you just a writer at that point?
- [14:50]
Scott Derrickson
Were you writing just a writer at that point? They were looking for baby writers. I mean, it was the Weinstein's had bought the franchise and I can't believe this is what we're talking about. They had bought the franchise and were looking for like young writers to write a script to boot up a direct to video franchise for them, you know. So it was intended to be exactly that because there was a big market for that kind of, of direct to video work at that time. Direct to dvd.
- [15:18]
Interviewer 2
Oh yeah, I remember.
- [15:19]
Scott Derrickson
Oh yeah. So. And so I just pitched them an idea that I thought they would never go for and they really liked it. This. Here's what I'll say about that movie. The script that my old writing partner Paul Boardman and I wrote, that script is better than the movie I made. The script is really good. And. And you Know, it was a little ambitious. I didn't know what the difference was, you know, But I wrote a, I wrote a $30 million movie that I got to make for 1.8 million.
- [15:45]
Interviewer 2
That's amazing, though. So with Black Phone to, like, are you essentially pitching to yourself, like, when you're making this movie, do you get to be like, I, me, Joe Hill, and we, we get to create this however we want to, or is it the, do you have to still get, like, piles of approval and stuff from up top?
- [16:03]
Scott Derrickson
It's a good question. You know, on the first Black Phone, the movie was small enough that I don't think anybody from Universal ever gave me any notes on that script or the movie. I think they just were like, yeah, just give us the movie, we'll put it out. Because it wasn't a big risk. And then this movie, I knew I was writing it to be bigger and a little more expensive. Not super expensive, but, you know, more expensive. But I think more importantly, Universal and Blumhouse knew that there was a lot more money to be made in terms of it being a sequel to a hit movie. And so there was more interest in giving feedback. But I've been very lucky working with Blumhouse and with Universal. They never forced me to do anything. They give me their notes, and sometimes it's Peter Kramer, the head of the studio, just calling me himself and saying, here are my thoughts. And, and, but every time I've gotten notes from them, it's given with the caveat, do what you want to do with these. If you don't want to do them, don't do them. Yeah, and it just makes you, it just makes you sort of relax and be like, okay, you know, let's talk them through. And most of the time, my experience with, with studio notes is if you have an intelligent, you know, executive like Peter Kramer at Universal, somebody like that who gives you notes, sometimes they're just great, great. And you're like, oh, God, why didn't I think of that kind of notes? But even the ones that you're like, ah, if you sit with the note long enough, there's something there and there's a note behind the note that you're, it's your job to figure that out and then go back to them and say, hey, I think that what was bothering you is this. And they usually are like, yes, that's it. You know, and that's a, that's a, that's a rewarding process, you know, So I, I, I like the end result of the Notes, process with the studio. Now, occasionally, when I disagree hard with the studio, I can be really intractable and overreact to things and make everybody suffer. I try not to do.
- [18:03]
Interviewer 2
That's called artist privilege.
- [18:06]
Interviewer 1
Pull a coppola, do it anytime you like.
- [18:09]
Scott Derrickson
Well, I do enough of that. But you do have to stand your ground for what you believe is going to be best for the movie. Well, I certainly have no problem doing that.
- [18:21]
Interviewer 1
I mean, watching Black Phone 2, that was the. The idea. That was the thought that I had while I was watching it, like, in. In the best way, like, thinking like, this is the movie that the director wanted to make. Oh, yeah. And we. And we were. The thing is that we were actually. We were the first people to see it. Like, we. We actually got to see, like, the print hot off the presses. And I was watching it, and some of the gore is. I mean, the gore in this movie is great. Incredible. Like, just absolutely incredible.
- [18:49]
Interviewer 2
Good head slices.
- [18:50]
Scott Derrickson
Yeah.
- [18:50]
Interviewer 1
And I was watching. I was like, God, I hope none of this gets cut by the studio, because this is intense.
- [18:56]
Scott Derrickson
Oh, no. You guys saw. You guys saw the final. The final cut.
- [18:59]
Interviewer 1
That's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's. That's amazing. Yeah, it is.
- [19:03]
Scott Derrickson
I got zero pushback about that. Really? Never? No. Nobody ever asked me to do less of any of that. That's at all.
- [19:09]
Interviewer 1
Yeah.
- [19:10]
Interviewer 2
You know, the movie is great for.
- [19:12]
Scott Derrickson
It, but between the two movies, the only thing that I was ever asked to cut, and I won't say who asked me, but I was asked to cut the Gwen whipping scene in the first movie. Yeah. And I just said, over my dead body. It's the heart of the entire movie. The movie doesn't work without. Yeah. And to their credit, they were like, okay. Okay, what's with.
- [19:33]
Interviewer 2
We talk with Joe Hill? What's with all you guys scary dads? You know, Joe Hill created. Joe Hill's the nicest, biggest bearded man on the face of the planet.
- [19:44]
Scott Derrickson
He's so wonderful.
- [19:45]
Interviewer 2
Stephen King, also, big beard, seems like a lovely man. They both write stories about big, scary, bearded men. They make scary dads the scariest thing in the world. What's going on here?
- [19:58]
Scott Derrickson
I don't know about them. I had a scary dad.
- [20:01]
Interviewer 2
Yeah.
- [20:01]
Scott Derrickson
Yeah. So, you know, did it look like.
- [20:04]
Interviewer 2
Did it look like the dad from he's got a good scary alcoholic beard? Yeah, he does.
- [20:12]
Scott Derrickson
Yeah. You can. You can pick those up at a discount on Walmart. At Walmart.
- [20:18]
Interviewer 2
So, no.
- [20:20]
Scott Derrickson
No, my dad didn't have a beard and he wasn't an alcoholic, which I'm very grateful for. But he was violent. You know, he was angry and he was violent, so.
- [20:28]
Interviewer 2
Well, I'm sorry about that. Yeah.
- [20:30]
Scott Derrickson
Well, no, but I also. I also really watched my dad change as I. As I. Which is part of Terrence's story. You know, I watched my dad change as I got older. I became very close to him in high school and in college and had a radically different relationship with him than I had in my earlier childhood, which was wonderful. Wow.
- [20:50]
Interviewer 2
Yeah, you could see that in the movie, too. That really actually does come out.
- [20:53]
Scott Derrickson
Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I'm not. I'm not out there trying to, you know, force my shit on other people. And I'm not interested in just trying to get my story out. Has nothing to do with that. I just think that, you know, when you draw. When you draw from your own experiences, the way things felt to you at certain times in your life, and you try to capture that feeling in a detailed way, drawing from the details of your own memory. Like all those kids in the first Black Phone. I went to school with all those kids. I can tell you who they actually were in middle school that I knew. You know, there was a kid who was just like Robinariano, you know, that I knew who was a friend of mine, like, Exactly. And. And I think that when you do that and do it effectively, there is something about. In. I don't know if this is true in all art. I just know it's true in cinema that when you capture that realistically and truthfully, people feel it. They just feel like, oh, this feels real. This feels very like this feels like somebody else's reality. And so the more specific you are using all those details, the more universal people connect to it. It's not their experience, but they can feel that it's somebody else's experience. You know, you do it in.
- [22:09]
Interviewer 2
You do it in a truly effective way. Like you do it in Sinister. I think Sinister is such an exact depiction of that in terms of the whole movies versus how it bumps into the rest of the movie. In Black Phone 2, you have these very ornate, beautifully shot dream sequences.
- [22:24]
Interviewer 1
Yeah.
- [22:25]
Interviewer 2
That are. Honestly feel just like what you're saying. Did you get that with practical or is that digital? Did you get that, that filming of the dream sequences in black?
- [22:35]
Scott Derrickson
Oh, it's all shot with Super 8.
- [22:36]
Interviewer 1
Film that was shot with Super 8.
- [22:38]
Interviewer 2
Yeah.
- [22:38]
Scott Derrickson
Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, you can. You can tell the difference. Well, I'll Clarify. It's Super 8. But also there was some scenes where I needed to use More advanced lenses. And because of the difficulty of the shot, we shot some of it on 16 millimeter and then extracted the 8 millimeter. 8 millimeter film. Is 16 millimeter film cut in half? Yeah, that's literally what it is. So I shot some stuff with a 16 millimeter camera and the same Super 8 stock that we were shooting with, and then just cut it in half and took that image out of the. Took an 8 millimeter image out of the 16 stock. And it's identical to the Super 8 stock. The only thing that you have to add artificially is camera flutter. Because I love Super 8. I love the instability of it. I love the stakes. You still get a lot of that stuff when you shoot on 16, but it's very solidly in the gate. It's stable in the gate. So you do have to. If you want it to feel exactly the same. In post, I had to add a little bit of instability to the image when we shot with the 16. But it's the same grain, same color responsiveness.
- [23:44]
Interviewer 2
Was that the same thing when you did Sinister with the home movies?
- [23:49]
Scott Derrickson
Yeah. I would never do what is so common now, which is, you know, shoot something digital and then make it look like film or look like especially Super 8. The difference is so enormous to me.
- [24:02]
Interviewer 1
Well, that's why I was huge. That's why I wanted to ask you about that, those dream sequences, specifically, because I wanted to ask, like, did you finally figure out the filter? Because nobody. You can always tell. No, you can always tell the filter put on top.
- [24:15]
Scott Derrickson
Yeah, There is no. No, because. And look, you have to think of it. There is no filter. It's impossible. Because, you know, when you're talking about chemical reaction on film, you know, you've got, you know, all the atoms in that piece of physical material that are reacting chemically and forming an image. And it's not limited to the limitation of digital pixels, you know, and to. It's just a different. It's a different kind of image forming altogether. And like I said, my favorite thing about Super 8 is how messy it is, you know. Now, granted. And also, sometimes it gets so messy that you have to reshoot it, because sometimes you'll shoot a scene and it's dangerous in that regard because there was. There was. There's one scene in the movie I had to reshoot three times because the Super 8 was so unstable and it was so out of focus on one. The cameras broke on one that we didn't know about. And then the third time, we sort of got it right. But it's funny. I like the messiness of it. I used some of the broken camera shots in the movie.
- [25:23]
Interviewer 2
Yeah, sure.
- [25:24]
Scott Derrickson
I was like, I can't do the whole scene like this, but, God, look at that shot. It's fantastic. I love the recklessness of it. I think the aberrations that you get are fantastic.
- [25:33]
Interviewer 2
Now you got sick. Because I want to bring something around to the actors.
- [25:36]
Interviewer 1
Yeah. One more thing about the super A. Well, I just. I love the handheld nature of those, like, dream sequences. Like, it almost. It put me in the mind of, like, not just like a 70s feel as far as the film stock, but also, like, 70s horror movies. Like, I felt like I was back in, like, a 70s horror movie when it cut to those dream sequences. Was that a deliberate choice?
- [26:02]
Scott Derrickson
70S and 80s, you know, the movie takes place in 1982, and it was like, obviously it owes a lot to all the. All the summer camp slasher movies, especially of the. Of the. Of the late 70s and the early 80s especially.
- [26:15]
Interviewer 2
This is a compliment, but it has a lot of Nightmare on Elm street three vibes.
- [26:20]
Scott Derrickson
Very big influence. Obviously, everybody. People are talking about that just from the trailer. Yeah, but, you know, that's. And, you know, I'm old enough to have been, you know, a teenager, seen that movie in the theater when it first opened. And if you're old enough to have been there when that happened, you have no idea how scary that was. It was horrifying, that opening scene. No one had made something like that before. And so I think that the love I had for the horror genre as a high schooler and what that exciting era was definitely plays in a very mixed bag kind of way into this movie.
- [27:02]
Interviewer 2
That's so cool. Let's take a break from all the laughter to say thank you to our sponsor, Universal Pictures. Dead is just a word. On October 17th, just in time for Halloween, the terrifying Black Phone 2 hits theaters. Directed by Scott Derrickson and starring Ethan Hawke, who is back as the Grabber and more sinister than ever. The Grabber's story wasn't over. And he asked the question, do you know what happens when you die? Find out for yourself. October 17th. Hell is in flames. It's ice. Universal Pictures Black Phone 2 only in theaters October 17th.
- [27:52]
Scott Derrickson
Die from your grave.
- [27:55]
Interviewer 2
All right, so all right, now you got the movie. It's a sequel. It's direct sequel to Black Phone. To Black Phone. Direct sequel, same actors. How is it dealing with aging kid actors? Like, as they get older, like, do they just become better actors? Is it one of those where you have to like refine the characters and stuff like that.
- [28:13]
Scott Derrickson
You know, I'll tell you a great story. So. So when. When they asked me to make the sequel, they asked me to make the sequel on Monday after the opening weekend of the first movie.
- [28:24]
Interviewer 2
That's the way Joe Hill talked about it.
- [28:26]
Scott Derrickson
Jeff Shell, who was the CEO of NBC Universal, emailed me. He's like, you're gonna make another one, right? No, but at that point, I didn't feel obliged to. I didn't have any ideas about it. I didn't feel the need to do it at all. But what. On top of Joe's kind of idea that he brought to the table, the thing that really made me want to do it was when I thought, you know, what, what if I. Wait, what if instead of like going and making a sequel, what if I go make another movie and take my time and let these kids both get into high school and then I make a high school coming of age movie in the same way? The first one was a middle aged coming of age movie. And, and that got very exciting for me and I thought that would enable me to make something more violent, more. More aggressive. Yes. You know, and, and you know, I felt confident that Matty McGraw and Mason Tames were going to be, you know, they would still have their skill set. You know, I thought that they would be. Do a really good job. But I also, you know, Miguel Mora, who plays Robin Arellano, he, he was so beloved in the first movie. He's got. He's like a rock star online. He's got like 4. 4 million TikTok followers and 2 million Instagram followers.
- [29:44]
Interviewer 2
Yeah, these kids get famous in a way that. No, that we never. Good. And actors don't. You know what I mean?
- [29:49]
Scott Derrickson
Like, so, so I love. So for me, it was like, well, what if I. He's, you know, his characters is gone and you know, but what if I wrote his. The character. What if I. What if he played his Robin, Ariana's little brother, you know, so I wrote Ernesto for him to play. You know that's the same kid, right?
- [30:07]
Interviewer 1
Yeah, I actually did. I had no idea that it was the same kids.
- [30:12]
Interviewer 2
You just blew my fucking mind.
- [30:15]
Interviewer 1
That's amazing.
- [30:16]
Interviewer 2
I just rewatched the other one too. I literally, like, I just rewatched Black Phone.
- [30:21]
Interviewer 1
Yeah, I rewatched it the night before going to see the screening.
- [30:25]
Interviewer 2
Hey, that's quite an acting job he did.
- [30:27]
Scott Derrickson
Well, wait, here's the thing though, you know, because he was playing such a different character, I Was like, I have no idea if this kid's gonna be able to do it. So I wrote it for him. And then, you know, I, but I told him, I said, look, here's the script. I wrote this for you, but you're going to have to audition because I have to see that you can do this. And so he, he read with Madelyn McGraw a couple of scenes and halfway through the first scene I gave him, I was like, oh, he's got the job.
- [30:56]
Interviewer 2
He's going to be great.
- [30:57]
Scott Derrickson
Yeah, and he does an awesome job in it. But he really, to his credit, he really worked on his acting skill, took acting classes really, you know, and then came in prepared for that audition and did a great job in the movie.
- [31:08]
Interviewer 2
How much was Ethan Hawke in the mask?
- [31:12]
Scott Derrickson
How much was he in the mask?
- [31:13]
Interviewer 2
Yeah, when he's in that, when he's on camera, like, is it him in the mask the majority of the, of the time?
- [31:20]
Scott Derrickson
Yeah, he's, he's, he's never not in the mask. You don't have. It gets.
- [31:28]
Interviewer 2
There's certain things because it was. Oh, yeah, and I'm not trying to spoil it. I was just, I just re watched the new Toxic Avenger remake and they were like talking about how, you know, we were trying to match the original where someone else was in the toxi uniform, didn't put Peter into it, and it was just like, oh, I think it's because Peter figured out how to not be in the makeup, you know, Like, I think Peter figured out a way to skip that part where it's like, Ethan seems like he's the kind of guy that would not let anybody else wear that mask even if they wanted to. Even if you wanted.
- [32:02]
Scott Derrickson
That's probably true at this point, you know, And I think that, you know, you know, Ethan. What was interesting is watching the way Ethan, when he saw during the pre production or like when he first came to North Carolina where we were shooting Black Phone the first movie, as soon as he saw the masks, he told me later, he said as soon as he saw the mask, like, oh, oh, this does so much of the work that I thought I was gonna have to do that I can do other things that are more interesting.
- [32:31]
Interviewer 1
Yes.
- [32:31]
Scott Derrickson
Because of what the mask's gonna be doing. He very quickly process that and understood what, what the mask did that allowed him to do more unexpected things, you know, which is really wonderful.
- [32:44]
Interviewer 2
It's not that I was shocked, but honestly, I don't know what I thought it was that Ethan Hawke honestly was so physically gifted. In the movie, like in Black Phone one and two, he so immediately steps into a supervillain character.
- [32:59]
Scott Derrickson
Yeah. And he makes it seem effortless. I don't give him a lot of direction. I don't talk to him much about it. I mean, we're good friends, you know, I really love Ethan. And we're married. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [33:14]
Interviewer 2
You talked about it before. And when is the baby.
- [33:16]
Scott Derrickson
No, and he just. He just is such a brilliant actor. He just comes ready and he comes with an understanding, and he's fearless. He has no fear. So he also will really surprise you, you know, if you give him. If you give him six takes, he's going to give you six versions of that scene. And, And. And sometimes it's version 6 that's really out of the box where you go, oh, I got to rethink the whole. This whole part of the movie now. Because that. There's one thing that he did in it where I was like. It was. It was. I said, just say this whole section. It'll be playing as voiceover, but I just need you to say it's. Just do it on camera. And I think he took that as a challenge. And then he made it one of the greatest performance moments in the movie. And I had to restructure the whole scene because as soon as I saw it, I was like, ah, shit, that's so good. I have to. I have to build the move. I have to build this section around that shot I just did now, you know, so. So he's. He's such a gifted actor and so fearless and. And. And I also am lucky because I have his trust. You know, he really trusts me and he'll do anything I ask him to do. It's wonderful.
- [34:25]
Interviewer 2
Anything.
- [34:27]
Scott Derrickson
On. On set, within legal limits, I guess.
- [34:33]
Interviewer 1
The physicality that he brings to the character, like, it could so easily go wrong. Like, it's something that. It's this physicality that. That it could so easily be goofy or hokey, but he takes it just up to that edge. And like, because the character himself, that's what I love about the character of the Grabber, is that it really does capture something that we try to capture on our show when we do our true crime stuff, is that serial killers are douchebags. They're like. They're shitheads. They're not cool.
- [35:07]
Scott Derrickson
There's nothing cool about any of them. I'm a serial killer junkie. I've watched every serial killer, true crime thing out there. They're absolutely terrible, weak, obnoxious people.
- [35:26]
Interviewer 1
Yeah. And that's what I love about the character, the grabbers that it captures that. It just captures that so well, just in his dialogue. But also, But Ethan Hawke's movements and the way Ethan Hawke plays him, it really does. Like, oh, that's a serial killer. Like, yeah, with that.
- [35:45]
Scott Derrickson
That's just, that's. That's all Ethan. You know, I don't think we have ever had conversations about the choices he's made playing that character. He just does it, you know, and that's it. As a director, you know what you want. A good director hires really good actors and then mostly stays out of their way. So I would say that 90% of my directing is, that was great. I'll do it twice as fast. That's usually how. That's most of my directing, because I hired great actors, you know, and there's, there's very rarely any bad. I don't think there's any bad performances in any of my movies because I cast well and, and, and I know how to stay out of actors way and make sure that they, you know, especially with kids, and let them be natural, you know.
- [36:33]
Interviewer 1
Yeah.
- [36:34]
Scott Derrickson
But Ethan, Ethan just will. He's magical. He's. He's become such a tour de force as an actor, and I think he's kind of playing above the rim right now. You know, the different roles that he's doing. Every single thing I see him do now for the last couple of years is so remarkable. And he's working all the time.
- [36:54]
Interviewer 2
Yeah, he played the, the abolitionist that. He was exceptional in that John Brown. He's just played John Brown. He was amazing in.
- [37:02]
Scott Derrickson
That was incredible.
- [37:04]
Interviewer 2
He really is. Why do you think some people get better as they age and some people fall apart as they age when they. As artists.
- [37:16]
Scott Derrickson
I think that a lot of it has to do with what it is that drives you as an artist, you know, because I think that Ethan certainly had a lot of opportunities when he was younger to become a bigger star.
- [37:34]
Interviewer 2
Yeah, he could have been Batman. He could have been. Well, he probably could have been in that realm.
- [37:38]
Scott Derrickson
I think that he might have been offered Batman. I don't know for sure, but I know that there was. There was at least a conversation about that at some point, but he. Yeah, I think he certainly could have gotten something like that, no problem, you know, And I think that he really has chosen in his career to pursue what is. What he thinks is of creative value. And what I love about him too, is that he doesn't believe. We've talked about this, the two of us, many Times about neither one of us really believe in the separation of high art and low art. Creativity is creativity. Good art is good art. And I think that's one of the reasons why he's really proud of the Black Phone movies and Sinister because he thinks they're really good, it's really good cinema. But at the same time, the guy's got four Oscar nominations because he's such a fine actor who also loves to make great artistic or so called more important films, but he doesn't think of them that way. So I think his drive is always a kind of excellence. And that guy loves poetry and literature and formal painting and art, and he loves cinema and he loves documentaries and, you know, and I think that he is somebody who has lived his life in such pursuit of excellence in art and is such a true consumer of great arts and entertainment, great cinema. He loves movies, he loves books, he loves music. You know, he's just got this Merle Haggard documentary that he just did. That's. Yeah, he's. He's. He's a consummate artist. And the other thing I'll say that's special about him is because he has all that experience and has directed quite a few films himself by now. He really wants to understand the big picture of what you're doing and he wants to contribute to that, you know, which means.
- [39:38]
Interviewer 2
But you could see it in Black Phone, like directly in these two movies. You can see that because you can see how he. It's just.
- [39:46]
Scott Derrickson
He understood what. He understood what? He understood the assignment, as the kids say, you know. Yeah.
- [39:51]
Interviewer 2
The whole movie goes like a record scratch when he shows up.
- [39:54]
Scott Derrickson
Yeah, yeah.
- [39:55]
Interviewer 2
It's like you can feel it. He's just like, oh, fine. That's the whole time I was like, yeah, he's here. Yeah, Grab his. Here. Yeah, as soon as I watch. Yeah. I was just saying to afterwards, to G and Luca, I was just like, I want the complicated. The Grabber is living with Jigsaw in an apartment trying to make. He's trying to become a chef. Like, I want to see the bear, but with the Grabber, like, I want him to have like, like him struggling, you know, like, there's something about that.
- [40:27]
Scott Derrickson
Blackbone three, the bear. You were here when it was born. Oh, my God. I got. I've got my. I don't need Joe Hill.
- [40:38]
Interviewer 2
Get that goose out of here. Is there any one last, like, honestly, in that way, like, do you have a big capital I important movie that you're like, in your head that you want to do Is there something that you're like, you can't rest, you can't go to your grave until you make.
- [40:58]
Scott Derrickson
You can't really be like that because. Because sometimes you just can't get certain movies made. You know, I always wanted to do a big budget version of Paradise Lost. I don't think I'm ever going to get to do that. That's sort of my white whale.
- [41:10]
Interviewer 2
If I have the big one. That's the big one.
- [41:12]
Scott Derrickson
Yeah. Because I just think there's a great movie, somebody needs to make a great movie about the greatest myth in human history. And you know, and, and the, the idea of a movie about the war in heaven and sort of the gradual fall of, of Lucifer into Satan. How do you know? Somebody's got to make that move?
- [41:31]
Interviewer 2
You know, I think typically Mel Gibson is right now making that movie because he's doing the prequel. Have you seen that? He's doing the prequel and the sequel to Passion of the Christ.
- [41:40]
Scott Derrickson
The sequel. Okay.
- [41:42]
Interviewer 2
No, he's doing Good Friday and then he's doing When Jesus Gets Up.
- [41:46]
Scott Derrickson
Oh, okay. All right.
- [41:48]
Interviewer 1
Yeah, that happened way after Paradise.
- [41:51]
Scott Derrickson
I'm not going to touch that. Mel Gibson and in Passion, the Christ. Other than, other than my favorite, my favorite way of describing that movie to my friends who had no seen it, they like, should I see it? I said it's the Jesus Chainsaw Massacre.
- [42:04]
Interviewer 2
Oh, yeah, buddy. That's a horror movie, man.
- [42:08]
Scott Derrickson
It's a horror movie.
- [42:09]
Interviewer 2
Jesus gets up in that movie.
- [42:12]
Scott Derrickson
It's probably the most pound for pound, the most violent mainstream movie ever released.
- [42:17]
Interviewer 2
Oh, dude, you should remake it. Ethan Hawk. Ethan Hawk is Jesus Christ.
- [42:25]
Interviewer 1
He could do it.
- [42:25]
Scott Derrickson
Jesus grabber.
- [42:31]
Interviewer 2
Full circle. I think we did it.
- [42:32]
Interviewer 1
Yeah, I think we did it.
- [42:33]
Scott Derrickson
Yeah.
- [42:33]
Interviewer 1
Paradise Lost that. Because you said you're a big comic book guy. Like, it's been done so well in like 90s. Like a preacher, I'm sure you've read it was done so well. You know, that sort of story has been done. Like it's been told in comic books, like on the edges of like preachers.
- [42:50]
Interviewer 2
Incredible.
- [42:52]
Scott Derrickson
I just think that they're. That, you know, I think I had a version of it that I almost got to make. I think it would have made a billion dollars, you know, so you never know, you know, But I've got other, you know, I, I go one movie at a time, though. You know, I look at what any situation I'm in, I'm like, what's the next movie I'm gonna make? Whatever it is, I'm gonna Make it as though it's the last movie I'll ever get to make, because one day it will be, you know, and so I'm not strategic about that shit. I don't. I don't plot out my. My career. I just. Every time I finish a movie, I take a look at where I'm at as a person and think about, you know, what if I only get one more film? What do I want it to be? And I try to make that, man. That's.
- [43:40]
Interviewer 2
Thank you so much for talking with us, dude.
- [43:42]
Scott Derrickson
Like, yeah, this is great, man.
- [43:43]
Interviewer 2
Yeah, seriously, it's really like, you. You. We. It was kind of funny. We're looking back on your IMDb as soon as we were, like, setting all this up, and it's like, I've seen every single one of this man's films.
- [43:54]
Interviewer 1
Yeah.
- [43:55]
Interviewer 2
I've seen every single one of these movies multiple times. Yes. So I was like. It was great. Didn't have to prepare at all.
- [44:01]
Scott Derrickson
Yeah.
- [44:02]
Interviewer 2
Didn't have to prepare at all.
- [44:03]
Scott Derrickson
Yeah, yeah, no, that's great. That's good for you.
- [44:08]
Interviewer 2
Easy for me, dude. Is that all that matters?
- [44:11]
Scott Derrickson
Dude, from now on, you need to hold that as your mantra. I didn't have to prepare.
- [44:18]
Interviewer 1
Do not tell him that. Do not tell him that. Do not put that idea in his head at all.
- [44:23]
Interviewer 2
Oh, wait a second. I can just float by. Wait a minute. Hey, thank you so much, sir.
- [44:31]
Interviewer 1
Scott, thank you so much.
- [44:32]
Scott Derrickson
This was great.
- [44:34]
Interviewer 1
So when can people see Black Phone 2 in the theaters?
- [44:39]
Scott Derrickson
Comes out on October 17th.
- [44:41]
Interviewer 1
Yes, October 17th. Yeah. It comes with our stamp of approval. We get.
- [44:44]
Interviewer 2
See.
- [44:44]
Interviewer 1
To see an early screening of it. It's fucking great.
- [44:47]
Interviewer 2
See it in the theater.
- [44:48]
Interviewer 1
Yeah, see it in the theater.
- [44:49]
Scott Derrickson
It's. It is a theatrical movie. There's a lot. There's a lot on that screen. I will. I will back that. I will back that. I'm glad you guys really enjoyed it, you know, and. And I'm very proud of it. And you. You are absolutely right. That is. It was not. It was a complicated movie to make, and it is exactly, exactly the film I wanted it to be, you know, which doesn't always happen, you know? Yeah.
- [45:12]
Interviewer 1
And I'm. The. The gore is just turned up to a new level.
- [45:16]
Interviewer 2
I was very thankful.
- [45:18]
Interviewer 1
Like, just like the. Just the. The one. Like, I don't want to, you know, spoil it, but the slice. Oh, my God. It's just like that. They're just.
- [45:28]
Interviewer 2
That was the best one. Like, we cheered.
- [45:30]
Interviewer 1
We cheered in our little.
- [45:31]
Interviewer 2
In our little room because it's also funny because now, like, this is, like, maybe the second or third time we've been to, like, a fancy screening, and so. But I'm still like this. So whenever I see a good kill, we're all immediately like, yeah, yeah.
- [45:46]
Scott Derrickson
You guys are maniacs.
- [45:49]
Interviewer 2
Mr. Derrickson, thank you so much.
- [45:51]
Interviewer 1
Thank you.
- [45:51]
Scott Derrickson
Hey, my pleasure, guys. Thank you for having me on. That was really a good time.