Episode 486: MK Ultra Part V - Acoustic Kitty

Summary

Last Podcast on the Left
Episode 486: MK Ultra Part V - Acoustic Kitty
Release Date: March 4, 2022
Hosts: Ben Kissel, Henry Zebrowski, Marcus Parks
Podcast Network: The Last Podcast Network

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Introduction to MK Ultra and Its Early Failures

The episode dives deep into the notorious CIA program MK Ultra, exploring its objectives, experiments, and the eventual unraveling of its ambitious yet ethically dubious endeavors.

Ben Kissel begins with a satirical warning about the dangers of the podcast for those who might have been subjected to mind control, setting a darkly humorous tone for the discussion.

[03:01] Henry Zebrowski: "That is what we're saying."

[03:28] Marcus Parks: "We are on to MK Ultra Part 5. And I, after this, need to be deprogrammed."

Historical Context and Initial Experiments

The conversation traces MK Ultra's origins in the late 1950s, highlighting key experiments like Psychic Driving and Operation Midnight Climax, which were eventually deemed failures or highly unethical.

[05:02] Henry Zebrowski: "I love this deleted scene from Mr. Smith Goes to Washington."

[05:22] Ben Kissel: "Yep."

[05:36] Ben Kissel: "Basically, he's saying he needed them to have secrecy so that he would know what they were doing."

Operation Acoustic Kitty: The Feline Espionage Attempt

One of the most infamous and bizarre projects under MK Ultra was Operation Acoustic Kitty, which aimed to use cats as covert surveillance devices.

[46:29] Ben Kissel: "They like things, they like cute names."

[46:43] Marcus Parks: "In this project, a cat had a tiny microphone implanted into its ear canal, which was connected to a transmitter implanted at the base of the cat's skull."

Despite initial technical successes, the natural behavior of cats rendered them ineffective as spies, leading to the project's eventual abandonment.

[47:22] Marcus Parks: "And amazingly, Acoustic Kitty actually worked."

[47:26] Henry Zebrowski: "Really?"

[47:46] Ben Kissel: "Yeah. Cats are not soldiers."

MK Ultra's Assassination Attempts and Global Impact

MK Ultra's scope extended beyond mind control experiments to include assassination attempts on world leaders like Patrice Lumumba and Fidel Castro.

[15:11] Marcus Parks: "In September of 1960, the CIA decided to murder Patrice Lumumba, the Prime Minister of the Republic of Congo."

[21:49] Henry Zebrowski: "Are you telling me they're gonna give him the exploding cigar?"

[22:02] Ben Kissel: "And more turns into an evil Keebler elf from the Bronx."

These operations, however, largely failed to achieve their intended outcomes, with none of the assassination plots successfully altering political events as planned.

[15:09] Ben Kissel: "Thank you."

[15:11] Marcus Parks: "I got a lot of caveats in this episode that are just for you, buddy."

Cultural Repercussions: LSD's Role in the 1960s Counterculture

The proliferation of LSD, initially introduced through MK Ultra experiments, significantly influenced the 1960s counterculture, fostering movements like the Merry Pranksters and contributing to the rise of psychedelic rock and the broader hippie movement.

[28:12] Ben Kissel: "Yeah, what would a Johnny Ramon been like?"

[28:18] Marcus Parks: "He would have been a guy in an apartment in Queens until he died."

[30:42] Ben Kissel: "It's like me with the samples of Costco back in the day."

[32:00] Ben Kissel: "Again, CIA gave One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest wow."

[33:24] Ben Kissel: "We have them too."

Collapse of MK Ultra and Emergence of Conspiracy Theories

By the early 1970s, MK Ultra was deemed ineffective in achieving consistent mind control results. Sidney Gottlieb, the program's head, admitted the impossibility of creating the desired “Manchurian Candidates,” leading to the program's termination and the subsequent destruction of its records.

[56:43] Ben Kissel: "But guess what? What if I told you both that that's a smoke screen for what they were really working on?"

[63:22] Ben Kissel: "Operation Chaos was a domestic spy program."

[67:01] Henry Zebrowski: "Or was he a double agent."

[70:22] Ben Kissel: "It's gonna be kind of fun."

The destruction of records fueled enduring conspiracy theories, including the unfounded Project Monarch, which alleges that MK Ultra successfully created mind-controlled sex slaves—a claim widely discredited yet persistently popular in fringe circles.

Project Monarch: Myth vs. Reality

The hosts critically examine Project Monarch, a conspiracy theory suggesting that MK Ultra produced mind-controlled slaves through horrific methods, including ritualistic abuse and genetic manipulation.

[80:33] Henry Zebrowski: "So the CIA has contact with demons?"

[80:35] Ben Kissel: "They are demons. It's not even like, oh, they're beaten, they're mean."

[84:21] Marcus Parks: "So how many do they have for making you horny?"

[95:12] Marcus Parks: "Now, Kathy and Mark's agenda for writing this obviously false narrative is murky to say the least."

[99:09] Ben Kissel: "They're using words from the intro of this book."

[101:08] Ben Kissel: "They say half the time with these various Project Monarch officers is that they can be literally dressed as..."

Project Monarch is portrayed as an over-the-top, unfounded extension of MK Ultra, involving elements of satanic ritual abuse and exaggerated claims about high-ranking officials and pop culture icons being involved in sinister activities.

[102:33] Ben Kissel: "They like those terms. Here come my kitten and let me pet you."

[98:54] Ben Kissel: "But they didn't have to put it down."

Legacy of MK Ultra: From Government Programs to Modern Conspiracy Theories

The dismantling of MK Ultra left a lasting legacy in both government interrogation techniques and the fertile ground for conspiracy theories that continue to thrive today. The hosts argue that the lack of transparency and the destruction of records ensure that MK Ultra remains a cornerstone for various unfounded theories, including the modern QAnon movement.

[82:34] Ben Kissel: "I'm so excited to go into the normal world of serial killers after this."

[85:53] Marcus Parks: "But no matter their intentions, Kathy and Mark concocted one of the wildest rides in conspiracy theory history."

[93:27] Ben Kissel: "You see how earmarked it is? I was reading this on the plane."

[99:57] Ben Kissel: "Because half these babies are getting just, like, slaughtered in the."

Critical Reflection and Conclusion

The episode concludes with the hosts reflecting on the human cost of MK Ultra's experiments and the danger of allowing conspiracy theories to distort historical events. They emphasize the importance of focusing on factual history to prevent society from becoming detached from reality, as was the case with MK Ultra's creators.

[126:12] Ben Kissel: "Well, therefore, experiments with lsd, electroshock and sensory deprivation all lost funding if only."

[127:22] Marcus Parks: "Well, the entire Podcast was about MK Ultra, we better stop dealing with it."

[127:43] Henry Zebrowski: "But it's the same thing in New York when someone's like, I need $1.17 exactly to get on the trade."

[127:48] Ben Kissel: "Thank you. Good."

[128:43] Ben Kissel: "And that is Monday's Channel 103 faction talk."

[128:51] Ben Kissel: "Thank you. Let the kings be kings. Let the bankers be bankers. You are the priests."

The hosts wrap up by acknowledging the enduring intrigue surrounding MK Ultra and its role in shaping both governmental policies and public perceptions about mind control and governmental overreach.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Ben Kissel: "We must be the fields we need to be to stand up to the CIA and their mind control programming." [04:33]

• Marcus Parks: "But President Eisenhower killed the bill saying that the CIA needed absolute secrecy to do its job properly." [05:28]

• Henry Zebrowski: "We are on to MK Ultra Part 5. And I, after this, need to be deprogrammed." [03:29]

• Ben Kissel: "And so the CIA took the cat to the field to test it. But predictably, the CIA wasn't busting at the seams with animal trainers, so they couldn't get the cat to follow commands. Instead, it just wandered off." [47:46]

• Marcus Parks: "So how many do they have for making you horny?" [80:18]

• Ben Kissel: "But Kathy said that her father intentionally abused her to later sell her to the US government." [83:46]

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Key Takeaways

1. MK Ultra's Ambitious Yet Unethical Goals: The CIA's MK Ultra aimed to develop effective mind control techniques but repeatedly failed to achieve its objectives ethically or technically.

2. Operation Acoustic Kitty as a Case Study: The project's innovative yet impractical use of cats for espionage operations exemplifies MK Ultra's blend of creativity and ethical disregard.

3. Cultural Impact Through LSD: MK Ultra inadvertently influenced the 1960s counterculture by proliferating LSD, which became a cornerstone of the hippie movement and psychedelic culture.

4. Legacy of Secrecy and Conspiracy: The shroud of secrecy and the destruction of MK Ultra records have perpetuated numerous conspiracy theories, including the unfounded Project Monarch.

5. Human Cost and Ethical Reflection: The episode emphasizes the significant human suffering caused by MK Ultra's experiments and warns against the allure of conspiracy theories that detach society from factual history.

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Conclusion

Episode 486: MK Ultra Part V - Acoustic Kitty provides a comprehensive exploration of the CIA's MK Ultra program, its experiments, failures, and the enduring legacy that continues to fuel conspiracy theories. Through engaging dialogue and critical analysis, the hosts unravel the complexities of MK Ultra, highlighting its ethical failures and the cultural ripples that emanated from its controversial experiments.

For those interested in the dark intersections of government programs and societal impacts, this episode offers a detailed and thought-provoking narrative that underscores the importance of transparency and ethical governance.

Transcript

[Ben Kissel]

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[Marcus Parks]

There'S no place to escape to.

[Ben Kissel]

This is the last on the left. That's when the cannibalism started.

[Henry Zebrowski]

What was that?

[Ben Kissel]

Log jamming is actually one of the complicated procedures they use on monarch slaves. Is it? This podcast is dedicated to the 3 million Americans and counting and program and counting. What with monarch type programming. Now if there is any chance that the listener has had mind control done to you, you must consider the following podcast to be dangerous. Okay. If you are consulting a therapist for it is recommended that you consult your therapist before listening to this podcast. What's did the podcast Mind Dungeons in.

[Marcus Parks]

Dragons Dissociative identity Disorder.

[Ben Kissel]

The podcast listeners mind is like a garden. It may not be time to plant the truth in your mind. Perhaps you need some weeding or ground preparation before the garden of your mind is ready. Perhaps the weather is too stormy to plant the truth.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Are you Mark Zuckerberg talking about the metaverse right now?

[Ben Kissel]

I'm grilling and meats.

[Marcus Parks]

I hear what these meats.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh my God. That's a trigger word. Welcome to last podcast on the left everyone. I am Ben. Hanging out with Henry and Marcus.

[Ben Kissel]

The blessings of the podcast that flow from planting the information of this podcast to your mind will require the presence of the living waters of love.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Wow, I am so happy to be ending this series. But I'm also so happy we did it. Henry is ruined. Marcus, you're still an iron trap. Nothing can shake you.

[Marcus Parks]

Oh no, not at all, man.

[Henry Zebrowski]

We are on to MK Ultra Part 5. And I, after this, need to be deprogrammed.

[Ben Kissel]

Is that a light at the end of the tunnel or is it a train?

[Henry Zebrowski]

Can it just be a light?

[Marcus Parks]

So, when we were last privy to the secrets of the MK Ultra program, it was the late 50s, and the two most infamous experiments, Psychic Driving and Operation Midnight Climax, were deemed to be either failures or highly unethical.

[Ben Kissel]

It is one. Or the other. Certainly not both.

[Marcus Parks]

In addition, the first cracks to the protective shell around MK ultra secrecy were starting to show. In 1956, a senator from Montana named Mike Mansfield went in front of Congress and did his best to bring light to the illegal and immoral activities that the CIA had been getting up to since its inception.

[Ben Kissel]

I'm here showing true bravery. That's why my name's Mansfield Field, not Boys Field.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Absolutely.

[Ben Kissel]

We must be. The man's fields we need to be to stand up to the CIA and their mind control programming.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Wasn't that what MK ULTRA was trying to do? Create fields of men that they could then just like pluck out for go to do whatever mission they want?

[Marcus Parks]

Fields of men and female sex slaves.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[Marcus Parks]

Okay, but we'll get to all that later. We're getting way ahead of ourselves.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Fantastic.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, amongst other offenses that were all true, Mansfield said that the CIA was funding neo Nazis in Germany, illegally detaining foreign citizens for months at a time and toppling foreign governments.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I love this deleted scene from Mr. Smith Goes to Washington.

[Ben Kissel]

Mr. Smith Goes to Washington and gets his dick sucked by a mind controlled slave.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, this guy argued for full transparency of the CIA. Rightly assuming that if this is what we know about, then God knows what else they're up to.

[Ben Kissel]

Yep.

[Marcus Parks]

And granted, this is also the argument conspiracy theorists make about MK Ultra.

[Ben Kissel]

They're right.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, yeah. But President Eisenhower killed the bill saying that the CIA needed absolute secrecy to do its job properly.

[Ben Kissel]

Basically, he's saying he needed them to have secrecy so that he would know what they were doing.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, right. So what is that called?

[Ben Kissel]

Plausible deniability.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Plausible deniability.

[Ben Kissel]

Get used to saying that.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Plausible deniability.

[Marcus Parks]

Therefore, MK Ultra stayed a secret for another 20 years and the CIA was free to continue the same dead end experiments that were both destroying minds, and much to the CIA's later chagrin, opening them yeah, dawg. Now, in 1959, a novel debuted with a plot eerily similar to some of the projects that MKUltra had been working on throughout the decade. In this book, an infantry platoon in Korea is brainwashed and programmed to return to the United States with the mission of killing a president candidate to set up a communist takeover.

[Ben Kissel]

Coincident. Whoa, cool.

[Marcus Parks]

That book was called the Manchurian Candidate. It was a total work of fiction that nonetheless made its way into conspiracy fact. But to be fair, the CIA had been trying to create just such an agent as was described in the book. They just hadn't gotten very far.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Well, I think there's something with the CIA not being able to make someone charming. And you do have to have just a small amount of charm to run for any political office.

[Marcus Parks]

Yep.

[Ben Kissel]

Well, also, you know, a lot of times the guys who run for political office, don't they? Don't they Normally, back in the day, they started as dweebs, right? There were a lot of, like, they were a little bit more buttoned down. Some of them were wild and crazy. So you had to figure out a way to shake it up. So why not throw a little mind control in there? Maybe insert a little fucking telephone up into their nose, like a little kind of the old school computer doodad. And then you can control their. You control their emotions from far away.

[Henry Zebrowski]

So you're just. You're a satanic human chef.

[Marcus Parks]

Yes. Is that what happened to Ted Cruz?

[Henry Zebrowski]

What do you mean?

[Ben Kissel]

You notice I'm not gonna say the words because I don't want to put on a list, so I'm just gonna go. You see, I've just mouthed a word to Marcus, and you can't even hear what I said.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I saw it, though, and I'm not even gonna tell the people what you mouthed.

[Marcus Parks]

On a chilling story from 1954, Morse Allen, one of the heads of MK Ultra, performed an experiment on a secretary in which she was put into a deep trance and was told to keep sleeping until he broke the spell. Then he hypnotized a second secretary and told her that if she couldn't wake her sleeping friend, then she had no choice but to murder her.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Wait, there has to be another option.

[Ben Kissel]

Cunnilingus. And that's where all those sleeping porns come from.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, my goodness.

[Ben Kissel]

Those are always weird.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Quite odd.

[Marcus Parks]

To complete it, Alan left an unloaded pistol nearby to make the mock murder easy to commit, just so she wouldn't just freak out and use her hands and strangle the woman to death. You have to give Her, a target, a path.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Well, this is why it's not that crazy when people are like, I think they killed Marilyn Monroe. Because you hear stories like this, you're like, yeah, maybe they did.

[Ben Kissel]

This is what we've been saying, man, is that that's reason why it opens the doors to all these conspiracy theorists because they did like this. But it also takes that secretary needed to have been sort of prodded into knowing how to use a gun in the first place. That's kind of the way it starts with that the tentacle arm goes to one side where she needs to have some sort of gun training, be familiar with it, not be afraid to pick it up. So that's how the hypnotism can take hold. And then she can be like, yeah, I can't wait to kill this fucking bitch.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Gun safety training.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, according to reports, the second secretary failed to wake the first. So she picked up the gun, pointed it at her target and pulled the trigger over and over and over again.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Pamela. Pamela, what are you. Pamela.

[Ben Kissel]

Click, click.

[Marcus Parks]

What are you?

[Henry Zebrowski]

I've known you for 15 years. We're close friends.

[Ben Kissel]

That's how it goes. That's honestly I hope how one of us ends.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Nice.

[Marcus Parks]

When this woman was taken out of her trance, she had no memory of trying to kill the other secretary.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Wow.

[Marcus Parks]

Now this is indeed compelling.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah.

[Marcus Parks]

But it is not proof that the CIA had the ability to consistently create a so called Manchurian Candidate. It is however proof that they tried.

[Ben Kissel]

I think the term is consistent, which is what we talked about a little bit last episode is that it sounds like that it can work in a certain percentage of human beings. And this type of training can work in a percentage of certain human beings, especially people that are hyper hypnotizable, hyper suggestible. A lot of times it means you're a like I do think that that's a part of it is that you are of a simpler temperament or more sensitive temperament. Temperament that allows you to be more manipulated by these things. But again, they couldn't bank on it.

[Marcus Parks]

No.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Well, because if you do get a Manchurian Candidate, you would have to control them for like a long time.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

At some point they're just going to wake up and then they're just going to end up ruining everything. Well, that was them to create you.

[Ben Kissel]

Do you again, you Dana carvey them. You give them a clean slate at the end of it. That's the whole idea of it is that you wipe them. You wipe them clean so that they also don't know how to walk or eat or fucking drink or all the kind of. They become vegetables.

[Henry Zebrowski]

That's the hope.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

For the President.

[Ben Kissel]

If I was going to do it.

[Henry Zebrowski]

You know what? I think they succeeded.

[Marcus Parks]

But. But the problem with that is that they actually, I mean, even though they're trying to like mind wipe and you know, put a new personality and alter on these people, a lot of conspiracy theories like, will point to a certain person and say. Like, for example, we used to have a in our live show about how Casey Anthony was an MK Ultra agent.

[Ben Kissel]

Sure, right.

[Marcus Parks]

But that's the thing, is that they don't have the technology to just implant a thought into a person's brain without them knowing it, without mind wifing it first. There's like MK Ultra is just full of contradictions like that.

[Henry Zebrowski]

All I know is I'm eating good in the neighborhood. I'm loving it. I just like it my way. Oh, I'm going to need my fourth meal.

[Ben Kissel]

Are you a hip young teen?

[Marcus Parks]

I am. Well, furthermore, fiction like the Manchurian Candidate about communist countries using mind control, this fueled the CIA's belief that mind control technology existed. It was a feedback loop, much like people who already believe that their lives are a simulation have that belief bolstered when they watch the Matrix. But as we already know, the communists were never working on mind control technology in the way we thought of it. And by the late 50s, the CIA was in possession of this knowledge.

[Ben Kissel]

Where the communists did succeed is convince a large portion of our female population to stop shaving their armpits.

[Henry Zebrowski]

And you know what? I'm here for it. I'm here.

[Ben Kissel]

But I'm just saying they did succeed in a way.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I'm going to grind a little rubble.

[Marcus Parks]

Under there and cool, I like it.

[Henry Zebrowski]

All I'm going to say is, with the Matrix, how many chubby nerds threw their back out trying to be Neo? And we need to hold the Matrix accountable.

[Ben Kissel]

I bought the leather jacket.

[Marcus Parks]

I do know at least three chubby nerds murdered someone because of it.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Wait, what?

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, there's a fair amount of Matrix inspired murders. Guys who believe that they were in a simulation and so try to test it by killing someone and then they end up just going to prison and they realize that it is not a simulation in any way whatsoever. Murder is very real. Super real.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Ironically, in prison. It is kind of a simulation though, isn't it? Every day is the same. Yeah.

[Ben Kissel]

Whoa.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah.

[Ben Kissel]

You talking about the wonderful structure of prison.

[Henry Zebrowski]

That's crazy. That's a whole nother episode. Matrix murders.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, during the late 50s, Allen Dulles tasked two agents with actually finding out if the Communists could control minds. Because I suppose it took them a while to figure out that maybe they should have definitive of proof instead of just assumptions if they were going to commit all these atrocities.

[Ben Kissel]

That was like a running line of one of like the arms of MK ULTRA was to go send somebody out to do this. Because they were like, we don't need permission to figure out brainwashing on our own because it's imperative, right? Because if we can do it, they are definitely doing it. They're super evil. We're fucking great. They're definitely doing it. And I think that it wasn't until, like, probably years into the program that finally when the definitive proof came out saying that the Russians and Chinese did not have brainwashing techniques. And they were like, but think about what we've learned.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Not only.

[Marcus Parks]

Not only had the Soviets and Chinese never discovered the secrets to mind control, they hadn't even tried to discover those secrets.

[Henry Zebrowski]

This is just what this is like. It reminds me of someone who thinks that everyone is after them, but in reality they're just doing meth and they're in a trailer somewhere and no one even knows that they exist.

[Marcus Parks]

A lot of this shit is related to gang stalking, which we'll get into later on. But even though the pressure to make MK ULTRA work was decreasing, there was still a Cold War going on. And the CIA used some of what it learned from MK ULTRA to attempt assassinations around the world. Now, make no mistake, the CIA was indirectly or directly involved in a lot of political assassinations during the time MK ULTRA was active, including Dominican dictator Rafael Trujillo, Swedish diplomat Dag Hammerskjold, and South Vietnamese president Ngo Dinh Diem yo, what.

[Henry Zebrowski]

That Swedish dude do?

[Ben Kissel]

Invented skis? I don't know what they do.

[Marcus Parks]

I can't remember exactly why the CIA hated him. I think it was one of those things where he was like, maybe we shouldn't kill each other.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, he's going to have to die.

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah, whatever, man. He's a fucking turd in the punch bowl.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, I think it was actually a lot more complicated than that. It was honestly far too boring for me to go into on the show.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I don't know. All I know is he probably sounded like that Muppet and I think that's funny.

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah, he should do. I do. I think he should also be shot in the head Muppet.

[Henry Zebrowski]

It's.

[Ben Kissel]

Choose a side.

[Henry Zebrowski]

You're just gonna hurt somebody's hands.

[Ben Kissel]

I'm sick of everyone being neutral.

[Marcus Parks]

But perhaps not surprisingly, given MK Ultra's track record for success, none of the assassinations involving MKULTRA tactics or personnel ever worked. Or should I say ever worked, as far as we know.

[Ben Kissel]

Thank you.

[Marcus Parks]

I got a lot of caveats in this episode that are just for you, buddy.

[Ben Kissel]

Thank you. I feel seen, I feel heard and acknowledged. There's been space made for the conspiracy theorists.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Fantastic.

[Marcus Parks]

For example, In September of 1960, the CIA decided to murder Patrice Lumumba, the Prime Minister of the Republic of Congo, just three months after the country had gained its independence from Belgium. See, the month before, an undercover CIA agent working at the American embassy in that country reported that the Republic of Congo was edging towards a communist takeover.

[Henry Zebrowski]

No, he also just had a recent assassination of another African leader as well.

[Marcus Parks]

It happens fairly often.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, there was. And the CIA was involved in that.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

[Ben Kissel]

Wow, you're so creative. Oh, those CIA guys. Hi. Hi. Good work. You guys are so busy all the time.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I mean, to be fair, if they are listening. Thank you. It is a podcast. If we were recording this alone without any equipment, that would be scary.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah. But because the Republic of Congo was supposedly edging towards communism, Patrice Lumumba had to go. Now, just shooting Lumumba might potentially cause more problems because the Republic of the Congo was no more stable at its founding than it is today or at any time in its existence. But to avoid any sort of hubbub, the CIA tasked MKUltra father and head poison maker, Sidney Gottlieb.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Uh oh.

[Marcus Parks]

With quietly poisoning the prime minister of a foreign country without any approval from the president or Congress.

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah, because he was willing to just say yes. Because he also understood how secrecy is important. Okay. Yeah. We can't. It's so important to. To trust. We need trust within the CIA. And you know how hard it is when everyone's a spy and half of them were trained in hypnotism or tripping balls. And so, like, you know, it comes down to it, like, you never know when you're gonna get laced with some kind of bullshit on your salad just because you ordered it from Tim instead of the other PA who hasn't been around for long enough.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I would trust a Juggalo more than anyone who works for the CIA. I feel like the CIA offices are just a buttoned up bonnaroo at this point. And I don't think you can trust anything they say.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, I mean, in the 50s, the CIA was like, the grooviest place in America. How's that for Ira?

[Ben Kissel]

But hey, they did that super funny CIA comedy with the big woman. What's her name? Melissa McGunty. And how cute is that? She's just a little housewife. Oh, what a cute little member of the CIA. Certainly it's not propaganda in any way, shape or form. She fell down. Oh, that's so funny.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Well, that's good humor.

[Ben Kissel]

Until Melissa McGunty would what she's doing to the fabric of American society.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Jackie Zabrowski has earwormed you because she is upset with any actress that is not her. It's a Zabrowski trait.

[Marcus Parks]

Let's say it is. Well, to figure out the best way to poison a foreign leader, Sidney Gottlieb drew on his deep MK Ultra bench and asked Dr. Yuen Ke, the creator of Psychic Driving, for his expert psychological opinion on Lumumba's personality.

[Ben Kissel]

You see what you wanna do there? When you're gonna wanna put together a personality profile, you're gonna want to take a look at their shit. Because you could tell a lot from a man from what he's eating.

[Henry Zebrowski]

That's probably true.

[Marcus Parks]

Cameron surmised that Lumumba was a vain person who paid particular attention to his looks and especially his teeth.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh.

[Marcus Parks]

So it was decided that Gottlieb would poison Lumumba's toothpaste with botulinum toxin.

[Ben Kissel]

So fucking botulism.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, I mean, basically, yeah, botulinum toxin. If you put just the tiniest, tiniest, tiniest bit of drop on someone's food, they're dead within a day. But the thing is about it, it's like what they did with the, the poison, what the Russians did with the poison when they. Polonium. Yeah. Where you sushi in the sushi. Yeah. Where you give it to them, but then you get the out of there. So by the time they die, you're nowhere near.

[Ben Kissel]

He takes him several days to melt. Right. He looked rough.

[Henry Zebrowski]

He really did. Also, what Kim Jong Un did to his half brother when he had those two gals spray real quick and they thought they were part of a reality television show and they actually did not end up going to prison. Yeah, because they were like, that was. That's actually kind of close to an MK Ultra agent, dude.

[Ben Kissel]

They were assets.

[Marcus Parks]

Now. Gottlieb was super jazzed when he was given the chance to use his skills in the murder of a foreign head of state.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, how it's game day, boys.

[Ben Kissel]

Do you think it's like Beauty and the Beast where all of his poisons sit unused and they just waiting, they're longing For a chance to finally serve a purpose.

[Marcus Parks]

So he built an assassination kit comprised of liquid botulinum, a hypodermic syringe with an ultra thin needle, and a pre poisoned tube of toothpaste.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Okay.

[Marcus Parks]

He then traveled to the Republic of Congo with what he called his bag of dirty tricks.

[Ben Kissel]

This is what he called it.

[Marcus Parks]

That's what he called it. Making him the only CIA officer known to carry a poison overseas to kill a foreign leader. Usa. Usa.

[Henry Zebrowski]

It's my bag of dirty tricks. Just pull it out. It's my whites.

[Ben Kissel]

It should. Honestly, you gotta have one dildo in there. Like something fun, right?

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah.

[Marcus Parks]

However, the CIA agent tasked with poisoning Lumumba couldn't penetrate Lumumba's security. And besides, Lumumba was executed by his enemies and dissolved in acid six weeks later.

[Ben Kissel]

Anyway, they just need to play the waiting game.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, my God. I guess that would be weird just because, like, I got a tube of toothpaste for your president.

[Ben Kissel]

Brought a tube of toothpaste from grand old America for you. Don't use that all at once.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Not poison.

[Ben Kissel]

Honestly, it'd be best if you did use all of it at once.

[Henry Zebrowski]

It's not poison.

[Marcus Parks]

And while the CIA had worked with the Congolese and the Belgians who assassinated Lumumba prior to the assassination, they did not participate in the capture or the acid bath.

[Ben Kissel]

They were the inspiration. Yeah, they were the muse. Like Julia Fox was to the uncut gems people.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Fantastic. What do you gotta do in life to get killed in a vat of acid? Something's gone horribly wrong.

[Ben Kissel]

Just be the wrong leader at the wrong time.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah. It does remind me of that scene in Robocop though, that we were talking about yesterday. Melted.

[Ben Kissel]

So cool.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah. And then there's the.

[Henry Zebrowski]

When he gets hit by the car.

[Marcus Parks]

Wonderful. Well, perhaps the most well known of the CIA's assassination attempts on world leaders is that of Cuba's Fidel Castro. And perhaps not surprisingly, Sidney Gottlieb. And MK Ultra's dirty little fingerprints were all over those attempts.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Are you telling me they're gonna give him the exploding cigar?

[Marcus Parks]

They actually his. Sidney Gottlieb was responsible for the poison cigars, not the exploding cigars.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Okay.

[Marcus Parks]

Amongst many, many others, Sidney Gottlieb more.

[Ben Kissel]

And more turns into an evil Keebler elf from the Bronx. Like he is more and more just being like, yes. Let's see what happens with the caramel. Caramel is the most deceitful, delicious way to die.

[Henry Zebrowski]

All I know is I' eaten anything at that dude's house.

[Marcus Parks]

Nope. Now, if you listen to our JFK series, then you know that Kennedy officially authorized the assassination of Fidel Castro in 1961 with Operation Mongoose. But before Kennedy and Mongoose, you had Eisenhower, Gottlieb and MK Ultra. After Eisenhower ordered that Castro be, quote unquote, sawed off.

[Ben Kissel]

Cool.

[Marcus Parks]

The CIA. Yeah, saw that fucker off.

[Ben Kissel]

Saw the fucker off. Helmet bouncing around.

[Marcus Parks]

The CIA began concocting plans to take him down first trying non lethal means using what Gottlieb had learned from MK ULTRA experiments. And this is not mind control experiments. These. This is the chemical side of MK Ultra.

[Ben Kissel]

Because you remember the Octopus of Malice has many tentacles. It's more than eight, probably. I believe they said it's 149 sub projects that are officially underneath the umbrella of MK Ultra. So it has 149, 10 tentacles.

[Henry Zebrowski]

And that's just the ones we know.

[Ben Kissel]

He's got the two little secret ones that crawl up your asshole.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Those are my favorite ones.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, the first plan was to use what they learned in Operation Midnight Climax. Specifically the tactic of using an aerosol form of lsd. In theory, they could spray airborne acid into a radio studio just before Castro made a live broadcast, which would cause Castro to act a fool on air.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I hate to break this to you, but we just made Fidel Castro the greatest radio DJ of all time.

[Ben Kissel]

It was a part of the flashing lights techniques that they used in Project Monarch. Along with aerosol acid. They drop into the various dance clubs of America to transfix the youth. So they get used to the constant flow of entertainment and don't bother to read the news.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Okay.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, after this was deemed impractical, they moved on to Castro's physical appearance, believing that Castro's power laid in his beard. Got leave figured. Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

What's going on?

[Marcus Parks]

That is exactly what they thought.

[Henry Zebrowski]

It's like.

[Marcus Parks]

It's like Samson. If we take away his beard, we take away his charisma and his power structure will fall apart beneath him.

[Henry Zebrowski]

That is. Okay. I'm just gonna. That's dumb.

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah. Sometimes it's nice to shave your beard though, when you're with somebody who's used to. Because then it's like a new person.

[Marcus Parks]

Sure.

[Ben Kissel]

So it's kind of nice actually. Think of his beard fell off of her being like, how K Refresco. Fidel Castro has got such a baby face.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, it's really nice. Nice. But it's also just not. I've just never shaved my legal. Never shave my beard and be like, I feel weaker now.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, they figured they could sprinkle thallium salts in Castro's boots and that would cause his beard to fall out. They basically lightly poison him. But this was deemed really fucking stupid for a lot of different reasons. And after Gottlieb put forth dozens more ideas, including the poison cigar idea, each more acid inspired than the last, they stopped asking him. And by the time Lyndon Johnson was in power, the far flung assassination plots involving Castro were finally put to rest.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Did anyone just mention sniper?

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah, just shoot him in the fucking. Drop a bomb on his house.

[Henry Zebrowski]

What are we doing here?

[Marcus Parks]

But even though MK Ultra never changed the course of global political events, it still had a profound effect on the world in the form of the 60s counterculture.

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah, man, fucking no pants. Pants out there. Dog, bush hair, man. We got a blanket shirt on. You're sleeping in the mud. You don't care if it's rated 1969, man. Took three days to park back in the day, man. Or the Seamless.

[Marcus Parks]

Dude.

[Henry Zebrowski]

No, seamless. It reminds me of. It reminds me of Woodstock part two. Yeah. When everyone was just covered in human. They're like, it's great.

[Ben Kissel]

They were covered in human in the Woodstock.

[Henry Zebrowski]

They loved being covered in Duke.

[Marcus Parks]

No, that was Woodstock 99. Woodstock 94. That was pure mud, my friend.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I don't think it was.

[Ben Kissel]

It was right by the outhouse.

[Marcus Parks]

No, woodstock99. You're thinking of woodstock99. That was the one that was right near the outhouse. And everyone was like, yeah, the mud. We're doing it like woodstock94. And everyone else said that it was the foulest fucking smell they'd ever encountered in their lives.

[Ben Kissel]

Some kind of white crud.

[Marcus Parks]

Sure, I've got my opinions on hippies that you're all well aware of. But no matter my opinions or how quickly the movement dwindled into futility, one can't discount the long term reverberation of the early 60s counterculture.

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah, dude, you had straight up like people like the Weathermen. There was a lot of weird shit happening, like in terms of domestic terrorism. Just that was hippie led, which is really interesting, against the government that they did not believe in. And they were very, very serious in the beginning.

[Marcus Parks]

Oh, the up against the wall motherfuckers.

[Ben Kissel]

Yes.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, those guys were something else.

[Ben Kissel]

The Weather Underground.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, but so it's so strange. They're counterculture, but they are culture because the CIA has created them.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, let's get into it.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Interesting, because it's fascinating.

[Ben Kissel]

Oh, accidentally, again, stepping onto a very.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Cogent point, I mean good in the neighborhood.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, inextricably linked to this idea is the fact that the 60s would not have had the same flavor had it not been for lsd.

[Ben Kissel]

Lsd.

[Marcus Parks]

And there is also no doubt that LSD was introduced to and proliferated throughout America by the CIA.

[Ben Kissel]

And as we will see as we go further in the episode, there are many notable figures in history, quote unquote, notable figures of history that helped spread this acid throughout all of society. That even again, which is kind of funny, every single time any one of those people had acid, it came directly from the CIA.

[Marcus Parks]

Must be the good sunshine, my friend. And taking it even further, a little bit in the no dog's territory. If you don't have acid, you don't have the Stooges. And if you don't have the Stooges, then you don't have punk. And if you don't have punk, then the whole of modern western civilization looks entirely different.

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah, what would a Johnny Ramon been like? He would just been a circus geek.

[Marcus Parks]

He would have been a guy in an apartment in Queens until he died.

[Ben Kissel]

Cool.

[Marcus Parks]

Basically, yeah.

[Ben Kissel]

That's a dream.

[Marcus Parks]

The pipeline of LSD from the CIA to the American public is a curious one. From Friday night LSD parties held at the home of CIA operative Harold Abramson in Long Island. Acid firstly into high society and celebrity circles.

[Ben Kissel]

Fucking Harold Abrason's a shithead too. He's another like old school villain.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, well, he was one of the guys that was involved in the death of Frank Olson. Surprisingly, the first celebrity to speak out about the benefits of LSD was actor Cary Grant.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Really?

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah. He said after 60 acid trips he found a second youth and had come close to happiness for the first time in his life.

[Ben Kissel]

I'll tell you, I thought that for a long time wearing a softer pant than wool made you gay.

[Marcus Parks]

But now I understand.

[Ben Kissel]

I took, I met with Dr. Abrar Zinn and I'll tell you what, I wore sneakers for the very first time.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Wow.

[Ben Kissel]

And the bounce I achieve is absolutely fantastic.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Well, we did Hero of the week. On this week's side stories was Ryan Reynolds, who also said he is at a difficult time, even though he's so handsome, but can you imagine even Cary Grant, maybe he didn't feel as if he was so special.

[Ben Kissel]

That was back in the day.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Cary Grant, I mean, he's an icon.

[Ben Kissel]

Cary Grant looked like a catcher Smith at 25 years old. He killed people in World War II. He had a lot of going on. Gary Grant was like, Ryan Reynolds is A model that improvs.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh my God, the jealousy again.

[Ben Kissel]

I've never met such a beautiful woman as when I met that Ryan Reynolds. They just make men different now. I am so glad I got in that time machine because the men are.

[Marcus Parks]

As soft as the women. Well, at the same time, LSD was also being distributed to volunteers at hospitals, clinics and universities in experiments secretly funded by the CIA's MK Ultra program. See, while some of these experiments were undoubtedly dangerous and in some cases deadly, others were mellow and produced mind expanding, highly desirable highs for the subjects involved. One example was novelist Ken Kesey, who volunteered for an LSD study at the Menlo Park Veterans Hospital. Loved the LSD experience so much that he kept returning to participate again and again as often as possible.

[Ben Kissel]

It's like me with the samples of Costco back in the day.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Exactly. That is so funny.

[Marcus Parks]

And when that wasn't enough, he got a job at the hospital where the experiments were being done as a night attendant so he could steal more acid.

[Ben Kissel]

At some point you feel like even the CIA has got to be like, all right, you like this too much. Technically, we've already gotten the results that.

[Marcus Parks]

We need from you, Mr. Casey.

[Ben Kissel]

Meanwhile, he says, like, man, we gotta all believe in a fucking kaleidoscope. Seriously, I mean, can we send him at Castro? Can we use his harlequin powers to disrupt all communism?

[Marcus Parks]

Well, they could even use that as further research. Just writing down like, subject loves acid.

[Ben Kissel]

I feel like that was like 40% of the time though, when it wasn't gotta be when it wasn't absolutely terrifying, the rest of it. Cause once you get on the board, right? Like once you do it the one time, like, I bet you the first time might've been kinda scary, but in the middle, but you're like, oh, this is kind of fun. And so I bet you like two or three times in, you're like, I fucking got this on, Pat. Doing acid is my new job.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah. And as it turned out, the new perspective given to Kisi by regular trips, combined with his experience working as a night attendant at the hospital, added up to his groundbreaking novel, One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest Wow.

[Ben Kissel]

Again, CIA gave One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest wow.

[Marcus Parks]

And once Kesey had a steady supply of acid, he started throwing the soap called acid tests for musicians, poets and Hell's Angels bikers who are all hanging out at his house.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh man, I don't know if I like that combination of people getting together, all tripping, thinking one person is now a turkey the other person's a dinosaur. I don't like the Hell's Angels tripping balls, to be honest.

[Ben Kissel]

I would put it this way.

[Marcus Parks]

Right.

[Ben Kissel]

I feel like this scene, this time period with all the acid in this kind of various worlds of different countercultures, of different mindsets all meeting up together, is very similar to what we see on the Internet these days, where it's. It's neutral. It is neither good, good nor bad. The thing about these things, if you read anything about the scene, is that it could get dark real fast.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I can imagine.

[Ben Kissel]

Because it's also accelerated by the constant use of acid, which at this time is stronger than anything we get. We'll never see this type of CIA acid in our lives, which is sad. I wish we could. I want some.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I wonder if we can get some.

[Marcus Parks]

Maybe. But the Hell's Angels were actually a much larger part of the early 60s scene than it's really made out to be. Especially at the very beginning. I mean, read Hunter S. Thompson Thompson's Hell's Angels for a harrowing read, but very fun.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I'm just happy he survived because it sounds like he was about to die.

[Ben Kissel]

The. Out of him. The. They almost beat him to death. And these Hell's Angels are really interesting. We would talk about one day, we might cover them, but it's. They're.

[Marcus Parks]

It's just rape. It's just all rape. Yeah. And that's why we didn't cover the Hell's Angels.

[Ben Kissel]

We tried, but the 1 percenters, what they used to call themselves, like, they are. They were true, just like the hippies, true counterculture people trying to leave society behind, trying to create their own society. And again, in an anarchic. While you do believe in the utopian ideals of humankind, that we would take care of each other, but it's also. Sometimes the strongest are the ones who take charge.

[Henry Zebrowski]

And you always know a Hell's angel because the inner thigh, it's all full of rashes from people's beards because they get blown by other Hell's Angels.

[Ben Kissel]

You're going to get the shit beat out of you. No, Hell's Angels, they're still around.

[Henry Zebrowski]

They are in New York and they are dead.

[Ben Kissel]

Actually.

[Marcus Parks]

They closed down their clubhouse in the East Village.

[Ben Kissel]

Yes.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, they finally. No, you didn't. They closed it down like three years ago.

[Henry Zebrowski]

He was the guy who had the E Dog.

[Ben Kissel]

He was just always outside.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I mean, he was done doing all the horrible stuff because he could. Couldn't barely breathe anymore. Emphysema is very real Hell's Angels.

[Ben Kissel]

Please write inside stories lpotl gmail.com is there now a fatwa against Ben Kism?

[Henry Zebrowski]

Dude, they brag about blowing each other.

[Ben Kissel]

A roast as dark as the night. Perfect for fueling the cryptid research and mad ravings required for your podcasting. Don't mind the red eyes. He's just trying to warn you of the bridge. The bridge. Finally, from the caffeine addled brains of Spring Heeled Jack Coffee and last podcast on the left, we bring you Mothman's Red Eye Blend. Yes delicious Panama beans. Go to lastpodcastmerch.com to order yours today. Craving your next action packed adventure, Audible delivers thrills of every kind. On your command. Audible is over a million audiobooks, podcasts and originals all in one easy app. From electrifying suspense and daring quests to spine tingling horror and romance in far off realms, Audible gets you to unleash your adventurous side with gripping titles that keep you captivated and exclusive. Captivating Audible originals, hotly anticipated new releases and must listen bestsellers that hook you from the very first minute. I recently have been listening to my favorite series Dune by Frank Herbert on Audible and one of the nice things about Audible is all the different character voices. Thanks old British man that reads Dune because it's great on Audible. Start listening and discover what's beyond the edge of your seat. New members can try Audible now free for 30 days and dive into a world of new thrills. Visit audible.com/and or text left to 500500 that's audible.com left or text left to 500500 this podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace gives you everything you need to offer services and get paid all in one place. Seems amazing, right? It's because it is. From consultations to events and experiences, showcase your offerings with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. Which is good because let's just say, I need it. You know, as you may or may not know, I lost horse picks.com in a very, very public and embarrassing auction to a young man by the name of Charlie Bucket, who has decided to take my horse picks and drive it towards the right. Fight some of the incendiary horse picks that I've seen, including Steve Bannon on a Clydesdale. One of the worst I saw was Ivanka Trump inside of a mayor. And I know that this is not the direction that I saw. Horsepix.com and and that little boy. I didn't know that he'd Become a full fledged Nazi and and grow his hair into broccoli shapes and do all sorts of things I don't understand. Which is why I've started started emu paintings.com thank you Squarespace, because emupaintings.com are these really it's an exceptional way for me to get you paintings of emus in various positions that emus would normally be. And in a way, I find it both amusing and inspiring to see what emus can do using the painter's brush and imagination. 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[Marcus Parks]

The CIA's further influence on the counterculture goes, in 1964, novelist Ken Kesey bought a bus, gave it the name of Further and traveled the country with what he called his Merry Pranksters, giving out LSD to people around America. The chronicles of this trip result resulted in the revolutionary book by Tom Wolfe, the Electric Kool Aid Acid Test.

[Ben Kissel]

It's a very divisive book because I could tell, like I know that I've read it twice and I read it once when I was 16 and I was like, this is the single best like thing I've. This is my bible. This is the thing that means so much to me. It's like that book and obviously Hunter S. Thompson's Fear and Living in Las Vegas, they meant so much to me. And then rereading it again at like 30 and I was like, man, this must have sucked. This whole bus ride must have been so fucking annoying. Everybody's screaming smelly.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I'm just, I'm going to the bathroom.

[Ben Kissel]

Just total chaos and you know, like nothing like constructive happening.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, well, actually, what is it? Larry McMurtry, author Larry Murtry, who wrote like the Last Picture show and Lonesome Dove and all that shit and Brokeback Mountain, he was a friend of Ken Kesey and they actually stopped off like in Texas to see Larry Murtry. And he said that the Electric Kool Aid Acid Test, the bus ride fucking ruined King Kesey forever. He was like, who's a bunch of goddamn fools is what it that I like though.

[Ben Kissel]

It sounds like all our one star reviews on the Internet.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, it sounds about right.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, staying in the realm of literature, poet Allen Ginsberg, author of Howl and one of the founders of the Beat movement, volunteered for a CIA funded LSD experiment at Stanford University. But instead of being tortured, Ginsburg was made to listen to recordings of Wagner's Tristan and Isolde as well as recitations by Gertrude Stein.

[Ben Kissel]

I'm really surprised he didn't start wearing those big long leather boots.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I thought you said he wasn't tortured.

[Ben Kissel]

Hello? Got you Vner.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I'll be here all week. Yeah, good job, musician.

[Marcus Parks]

I don't Know if that had any bearing on his NAMBLA membership, but that's a story for another time.

[Henry Zebrowski]

He was a member of nambla.

[Marcus Parks]

Gallon Ginsburg has some pretty dark secreted away.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I don't like these beat man. The beat movement is just a bunch of rich kids who had too much time to think.

[Marcus Parks]

Not really, but it's. I would say there weren't rich kids, but they were. They definitely. They had a lot of problems. There was a lot of problems with Burrows and Kerouac and. And Ginsburg and all guys, but you know, hey, they were still very influential.

[Ben Kissel]

You want to put a little. You want to put a little seed in your brain. You know what the original name of NAMBLA was?

[Henry Zebrowski]

What?

[Marcus Parks]

The Babysitters Club.

[Ben Kissel]

So think about that when you read your little books.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, God.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, interestingly, Ginsburg had no illusions about where his LSD came from. But Kesey refused for years to believe that something so beautiful could come from something so evil. It was only after MK ULTRA was exposed that Kesey finally admitted to the truth.

[Henry Zebrowski]

So did he feel like he was an unwilling pawn or was he aware that he was sending all the CIA acid to people? Did he know where the acid was coming?

[Marcus Parks]

No, not until. Not until 1976.

[Henry Zebrowski]

So then he must have been like, oh, I'm. I'm the.

[Marcus Parks]

No, he wasn't the. I mean, he was taking something ugly and turning it into something beautiful.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Idiot. For them, though.

[Marcus Parks]

No, the CIA did not want this to happen at all. No. Oh, no, no. This is an entire. This is. This is an accident. The CIA did not like that this happened.

[Ben Kissel]

The Merry Pranksters kind of did. Like, I do appreciate the angle that they were going for. I like the idea of destabilizing, bringing joy to what are people kind of like stuck in a rut? That's kind of. They were all everybody's manic pixie dream girl showing up. But the thing about a manic pixie dream girl is sometimes you, like, end up in jail all night, you know, like, it's very intense. Yeah, but he did. He shifted the culture. You would. And they. Again, it was highly accidental on the part of the CIA.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Interesting.

[Marcus Parks]

Now, the university researchers, like the CIA agents in MK Ultra, they found the acid trips were super fun. And like those agents, they started distributing it to their friends. And since many of these experiments were done on college campuses, the proliferation of acids started with students. And before they knew it, they had purple haze.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Sweet.

[Ben Kissel]

Literally. Because you know what sucks is a bunch of suits in the fucking Pentagon. They. They put this Purple Haze record on. Eventually they're like, one guy's like, disgraceful. But then one of them guy's going like, this is sweet.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Tapping the first toe tap of the CIA. My toe is moving.

[Marcus Parks]

What is this?

[Ben Kissel]

All right. Subject enjoys rock and roll.

[Henry Zebrowski]

It is also so ironic. Their whole thing is like, we must stop communism. And then they just gave acid to a bunch of college kids where they're probably going to debate communism.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, exactly. And they're going to try to actually live communal living. That was one of the biggest consequences. And the thing was, the CIA had so, so much acid. They had bought $400,000 worth of acid from the, from the laboratory in Sweden where it was originally made. They were the world's largest purchaser of acid. Jeez, it was crazy.

[Henry Zebrowski]

That's nuts.

[Marcus Parks]

Now, once it was discovered that the communists had no mind control technology, and once it was obvious that the MK Ultra experiments were not going to show the intended results, the project heads pivoted towards practical Cold War technology like tiny microphones, wiretaps and hidden cameras. But since these ideas were still overseen by regular LSD user Sidney Gottlieb, some of the ideas attempted were, to put it simply, stupid. Because while we all come up with shitty, insane ideas on psychedelics, Sidney Gottlieb had the resources to follow through.

[Ben Kissel]

That's what makes it amazing. You just sit tripping balls. Any idea you have any? Like all in one. Put a gun in a cow's asshole, you know, someone like stare taking the notes seriously. It's fucking incredible. He can put on a puppet show about the childhood of Hitler and everyone can be like, all right, all right, that's what Cindy wants, you know.

[Marcus Parks]

A case in point was the so called Acoustic kitty. That's the CIA's name, by the way. Acoustic Kid.

[Ben Kissel]

They like things, they like cute names.

[Marcus Parks]

In this project, a cat had a tiny microphone implanted into its ear canal, which was connected to a transmitter implanted at the base of the cat's skull. And it was all powered by micro batteries.

[Ben Kissel]

Whoa.

[Marcus Parks]

As far as that, why they used a cat, standard CIA surveillance devices picked up too much background noise. And Gottlieb's team hoped that the cat's cochlea would naturally filter out all that noise.

[Ben Kissel]

Was that the penis cover?

[Marcus Parks]

The cochlea.

[Henry Zebrowski]

The cochlea.

[Marcus Parks]

The huh?

[Henry Zebrowski]

The cochlea.

[Marcus Parks]

The penis cover. It's the thing in your ear with all the hairs on it.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, wow.

[Marcus Parks]

We have them too.

[Henry Zebrowski]

We have cochlea. We have penis covers in our ears.

[Marcus Parks]

No, we don't it's just.

[Henry Zebrowski]

It's just because I can see your agitated.

[Ben Kissel]

It feels really good when I put a Q tip in there. Is that why.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, that must be the penis cover.

[Marcus Parks]

No, that's it. No, you're right. You're fucking right. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Both of you. You're fucking right.

[Ben Kissel]

That's my programming.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Very good work.

[Marcus Parks]

And amazingly, Acoustic Kitty actually worked.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Really?

[Marcus Parks]

The cat survived without complications. And the recordings that came through were clear. So the CIA took the cat to the field to test it. But predictably, the CIA wasn't busting at the seams with animal trainers, so they couldn't get the cat to follow commands. Instead of just sort of wandered off. Because that's what cats do.

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah. Cats are not soldiers.

[Henry Zebrowski]

There is a large conspiracy that John, the owner of Garfield, was a CIA agent. And then you wonder, was Garfield not just a spy?

[Ben Kissel]

Well, yeah, of course, because Garfield could talk. Or at least mentally, I guess. Telepathy.

[Marcus Parks]

Telepathy.

[Ben Kissel]

And so, I mean, John obviously was using that for some way, shape or.

[Marcus Parks]

Form, because certainly because he wasn't actually. He wasn't conveying the thoughts to John. He was thinking, oh, no, they never understood Garfield.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Well, how would he know that he wanted lasagna?

[Marcus Parks]

Because he fed him lasagna once. If I. I mean, if I'm going to go into Garfield lore, I would imagine because John left out some lasagna once and Garfield went up and fucking ate it. Because John is a fucking disgusting bachelor. And so since he saw how much fucking Garfield loves the lasagna, he just kept giving him lasagna. Because John know how to take care of a cat.

[Henry Zebrowski]

They can't talk.

[Marcus Parks]

I'm not fucking budging on this.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Well, don't you think that. Well, John had to. How did John know that normal was always in the box for Abu Dhabi?

[Ben Kissel]

Odie can't talk.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Odie is a dog.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, because the cat just wandered off. Project Acoustic Kitty was ended. Not because it. Not because the technology didn't work, but because the application was incompatible with the animal's nature, which I think is the perfect analog to the MK Ultra program at large.

[Ben Kissel]

But guess what? What if I told you both that that's a smoke screen for what they were really working on?

[Henry Zebrowski]

What were they working on?

[Ben Kissel]

All right, you want to get into it?

[Marcus Parks]

Everything's a God smoke screen.

[Ben Kissel]

Might as well be a wall. There's so much smoke everywhere.

[Henry Zebrowski]

All right, put your gas mask on. What is the smoke screens for?

[Ben Kissel]

So now that we've been reading the material for two and a half months.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Right.

[Ben Kissel]

Like, I thought that I was at the edge of it.

[Marcus Parks]

Right.

[Ben Kissel]

I was reading this book called the how the Illuminati Create an Undetectable Total Mind Control Slave. It's a really long title is.

[Henry Zebrowski]

That book is so thick.

[Ben Kissel]

It's so thick. You're looking at it. I have it here in my hand.

[Marcus Parks]

You can.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yes, it is.

[Ben Kissel]

How big this is.

[Henry Zebrowski]

It is a textbook that makes you dumber by far.

[Ben Kissel]

But.

[Marcus Parks]

And. And how. And how many typos are the COVID.

[Ben Kissel]

Well, it says that it is filled with references that should be read with. But you know, this is written by Cisco Wheeler and Fritz Springmeier, but he references a book by Walter Bauer called Operation Mind Control that actually took everything deeper than what he was saying. But this is actually. There is stuff to back this up. There is a whole arm of MK Ultra that was working on a thing that's called. It was working on a technique called R H I C E D O M, which stands for Radio Hypnotic Intracerebral Control. Electronic Dissolution of Memory.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, my God. You got usually acronyms like make another word. No, no.

[Ben Kissel]

This is. This is specifically to be difficult. So this deep. This goes deep into JFK lore and Sirhan Sirhan, where the idea that how Lee Harvey Oswald was controlled, one of the more arcane, like, conspiracy theories is that when he was in the hospital, like, I think it was. I forget where it was. I want to say it was in Russia. They had stuck an implant a little radio thing up into his nose up close to his brain. They also said the same thing happened to s hand Sirhan where they put up a little radio thing up in the, like the top of his nasal cavity. And what it would do, it would send messages to the back of your. His brain that would make them feel emotions, uncontrollable emotions that will allow them to like then murder indiscriminately. And then you could basically turn it on and Lee Harvey Oswald's like, I.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Must kill the President.

[Marcus Parks]

Right.

[Ben Kissel]

No, small potatoes. Like, he goes up there, right? He goes to shoot the President and then it shuts off and then he's just this wandering dude walking around. Now, obviously that sounds insane. It sounds like something somebody would say to bus stop.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah. Especially considering how if you're using this sort of radio technology to make, you know, extremely intense emotions real, then it would be pretty crazy for Lee Harvey Oswald to pull off such an insanely difficult shot While being tickled in his brain.

[Ben Kissel]

He was hypnotized and trained as well, okay, so, but there is actual, this is really interesting. So there is an actual though like during the, like the Senate hearings where they were talking about the revelations of MK ultra, they asked Sidney Gottlieb about this technology and at some point they said, do you, did you do anything with radio transmission and hypnosis? And Gottlieb said, my answer is no. And then they're like, well, none whatsoever. And he's like, well, okay, I'm trying to be responsive to the terms that you use. Okay, so I remember it. There was like a current interest, it's kind of a running interest, like all the time. This is word for word what he said all the time of what affects people standing in the field of radio energy have. And it could easily been that somewhere in one of my many projects that as someone was trying to see if you could hypnotize someone easier if he was standing in a radio beam. And I honestly, that would seem like a reasonable piece of research to do.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, I mean, I know, I know exactly what he's talking about. He's talking about the radio telemetry experiments happening at Dr. Ewing Cameron's lab up in Canada at Raven's crag mansion. That was actually the brainchild of, remember the, the cockney assistant who would tell the bad jokes and do the Groucho Marx impersonations. That was his pet project. That guy by the way, had absolute no medical training whatsoever. Nor did he have any psychological training whatsoever. Nor did he have any scientific knowledge. He was just a guy trying whatever the fuck he could because he had permission to do so.

[Ben Kissel]

And that made him a fresh faced doctor.

[Henry Zebrowski]

He thought outside the bun.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

You know, and that's really what it's all about. Yo Kiro. Taco Bell.

[Ben Kissel]

That's what this whole series is about.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Indeed.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, because the program was producing no practical results in the field of mind control, Sidney Gottlieb began losing faith in MK Ultra by 1960. In a redacted memo written that year, Gottlieb admitted that no effective truth serum was known to exist. And other CIA officers admitted that the possibility of creating a so called Manchurian Candidate is a total psychological impossibility.

[Ben Kissel]

Or is that a double blind?

[Henry Zebrowski]

The only truth serum that exists and has always existed. Boobies.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

[Ben Kissel]

Oh, boobies will make you do a lot of things. All but I'll lie to at boobies. But then eventually boobies get the real boobies real out of you.

[Henry Zebrowski]

They really do.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, therefore, experiments with lsd, electroshock and sensory deprivation all lost funding if only. Because while Gottlieb had discovered how to wipe a human's identity, he had not figured out how to embed a new personality to replace what had been deleted. Overall, Sidney Gottlieb had wasted a decade destroying thousands of lives and spending millions in taxpayer dollars on 149M ultra sub projects. And not a one achieved any of the goals that have been set forth as far back as Project Bluebird. But just because mind control proved to be a bust, that didn't mean that some of the knowledge gained by MK ULTRA was not put into use by the CIA. Specifically, MK Ultra's practical legacy was in the field of interrogation.

[Ben Kissel]

It changed the fucking game of interrogation because it used to be truly the old school days, like nothing had changed since the Inquisition. You're supposed to just hang a guy upside down, beat his feet, fucking waterboard them. You're supposed to do that.

[Henry Zebrowski]

There was one dude who tickled the ribs for the first time. There was one dude who, like, tickled someone's ribs and they're like, you're the greatest tickler of ribs of all time. That man has never giggled like that before. He's telling us everything.

[Marcus Parks]

So, in 1962, a Soviet intelligence officer named Yuri Nosenko defected to the United States. But the CIA counterintelligence officer at the time, James Jesus Angleton, who also was involved in MKUltra in kind of a sideways manner, suspected that no CINCO was defecting as a double agent. So Angleton ordered agents to keep Nucenko in captivity at a black site in Maryland for interrogation. That is torture.

[Ben Kissel]

No, no, it's just a very forceful conversation.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah. My goodness.

[Marcus Parks]

Over a period of three years, almost every MK Ultra tactic, from sensory deprivation to LSD dosing, was tried on Lysenko, including 1277 straight days locked in solitary confinement.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, my goodness. Well, it turns out he just loves America. He loves freedom. We gotta stop torturing him, I guess.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, by the end of it, the CIA concluded that no Senko was telling the truth.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Well, if.

[Marcus Parks]

And they admitted that, quote, the way that he was treated went beyond the bounds of propriety or good judgment, for.

[Ben Kissel]

That, we're giving ourself two demerits and we are just. Can you hear the hands?

[Henry Zebrowski]

Let me see your wrist. Oh, yes.

[Marcus Parks]

Oh, bad.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Well, if he wasn't a double agent. He is now. Yeah, I can assume he probably doesn't love America as much as he thought he would.

[Marcus Parks]

This, however, did nothing to stop the CIA from using Gottlieb's tactics in the future. And his legacy lives on today in the CIA. So called enhanced interrogation techniques which is again torture war crimes.

[Ben Kissel]

Kubar read the QB ARC interrogation manual. It's very interesting what their, their ideas are. I actually do think it could really help in job interviews.

[Henry Zebrowski]

No, I actually think Qbert, the video game might be a great form of torture. God, you just forced him to play hours and hours.

[Marcus Parks]

I love that game.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Do you really?

[Marcus Parks]

I love Cubert.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Too hard.

[Marcus Parks]

It's wonderful. So in 1964, MK Ultra was retired and replaced with a program called MK Search, which while conventional, still dabbled in mad scientist territory with experiments like the monkey head switch debacle we spoke of last week.

[Ben Kissel]

That's pure curiosity.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah.

[Marcus Parks]

Sidney Gottlieb meanwhile, continued on his path of practical spycraft and oversaw the development of quite a few of the spy toys that have become hallmarks of the Cold War, like thumb sized pistols and keychain cameras.

[Ben Kissel]

But honestly, especially after going to the International Spy Museum in dc, there's so many things where you look at especially that museum which just seems like fucking psyop central. Like it's all just like a massive blowjob to the intelligence community. And you look at the stuff.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Well, I mean to be fair, it's their museum.

[Ben Kissel]

Of course. I know, absolutely. I, I don't know what I was expecting when in there. But it's fun. You play all the games.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Natural History Museum is all about nature and history. Where's the roller coaster?

[Ben Kissel]

What I didn't like is it just covered in child slime. Because it was all, it was like an interactive fun museum. So it's just kids going like, like on their hands and just wiping it all over magnifying glasses. Museum has all of those toys, right? It's all, all the walls full of the spy toys. My thing is, and I loved if you know, side stories. LPOTL gmail.com Let me know. Do they use that? Because I think a lot of it is just being like, it's almost a propaganda and a psy up on their own being like, look at all. You don't, you can't even know when you deal with the CIA what's real, what's illusion, where you're like, they just show all of these little toys. We're like, maybe they didn't use any of that.

[Marcus Parks]

I think a lot of it was conceptual or at least what they have in there. A lot of it was conceptual, but they definitely used some spot like spycraft is absolutely real.

[Ben Kissel]

Tiny, tiny little cameras, Mission Impossible masks that they do use that they fooled George W. Bush with where that woman, the head of CIA walked in with the full latex head mask in and he did not know that it was fake. He's also, you know, he was him. But then the idea.

[Marcus Parks]

He's a brilliant legally clever tactician.

[Ben Kissel]

But still you walked in. No, not hw, no, George W. Bush. I do believe he had the dumb act. And then when he came. But when she came in, like it did fool him. So that is interesting.

[Henry Zebrowski]

No, that's very, very interesting. And then of course, whatever we see in the museum, obviously that's all old and no longer needed. So God knows what the new stuff is.

[Marcus Parks]

Exactly.

[Henry Zebrowski]

That Netflix series is worth watching.

[Ben Kissel]

OnlyFans is a PSYOP. Half those girls you talk to are working for the US government. I mean that I honestly think.

[Marcus Parks]

Now while the CIA may have felt justified during the MK Ultra experiments because of their fear of the communists, the discovery that the communists hadn't developed mind control plus the realization experiments hadn't worked. It produced a kind of post nut clarity in Sidney Gottlieb.

[Henry Zebrowski]

That's a great way to put it.

[Marcus Parks]

While he didn't necessarily regret what he'd done, he certainly knew he'd done something wrong. But he also knew that just so long as the right people were in power, he'd be protected. That shield however, was destroyed on June 17, 1972 with the break in of the Democratic National Convention's headquarters at the Watergate, which as we all know, eventually resulted in the resignation of President Richard Nixon.

[Ben Kissel]

That was when politicians felt shame, I guess.

[Henry Zebrowski]

So I think Milhouse felt a little shame.

[Ben Kissel]

What a fucking nerd.

[Marcus Parks]

Now Gottlieb's team had provided false identity papers, a concealed camera and a wig and glasses disguise for Watergate burglars Howard Hunt and G. Gordon Liddy.

[Henry Zebrowski]

But I love this Looney Tunes approach. It is also slapdash and stupid. But then it's also so serious every.

[Ben Kissel]

Once in a while it was.

[Marcus Parks]

But that wasn't what exposed Sidney Gottlieb. Instead Gottlieb drowned in the wake of Watergate. Because the real consequences came not from the crime itself, but the COVID up that came afterward. See, Richard Nixon had asked CIA director Richard Helms to help in the coverup. But when Helms refused, Nixon fired him. And it's quite telling that one of the first thoughts in Helms mind was oh shit, people are gonna find out about MK Ultra.

[Ben Kissel]

Especially it's like 10 years later too. Like kind of all like that's like a thought in the back of Your head just being like, well, it's fine. We got this on lockdown. No one's gonna find out about MK Ultra. And then you're like, what if people find out about MK Ultra? Oh yeah.

[Marcus Parks]

And he pretty much figured it's like the next CIA director may not be as understanding of MK Ultra as I am. Because he, he did think of it like all of these guys thought about it in the context of the Cold War. That we did what we thought was necessary at the time. And even Gottlieb himself said it was distasteful, it was unpleasant. I didn't enjoy doing it. Yeah. He's so forced to do it.

[Ben Kissel]

Full of fucking shit. He loved every minute of it. That's actually how I kind of feel the opposite about him. I don't think he regretted it for a second, but he had to act as if he did.

[Marcus Parks]

Yes. So on his way out, Helms ordered the destruction of all MK Ultra records. And by the beginning of 1973, seven boxes of MK Ultra documents have been shredded. And Sidney Gottlieb shredded most of his personal records as well.

[Ben Kissel]

It's gonna be kind of fun.

[Marcus Parks]

Oh yeah. Just shredding all these docum documents. Doing it real fast. Cops are on their way.

[Henry Zebrowski]

There's no.

[Ben Kissel]

Well, you throw it all. Yeah. Well, in the CIA now has the burn bowls.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, right.

[Ben Kissel]

Where you can go and you just burn everything. I think it would be time for a nice fireside chat with your family. Being like bonfire night. Like it's July and you're like, we're having a bonfire night.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, with his protector at the top gone, Sidney Gottlieb was pushed out of the technical services division. Probably because acid headed fantasies had gone out of vogue. And the CIA was kind of pissed about the whole LSD inspired counterculture thing.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Right? Yeah. Seemed like it blew up in their faces.

[Marcus Parks]

So Gottlieb retired from the CIA in June of 1973 after being awarded the Distinguished Intelligence Medal.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, wow.

[Marcus Parks]

Now this period of time was a bit of an awakening for America because Americans were being made aware of a smattering of abuses of power by the government. From Watergate to the COVID up of the massacre at My Lai to the MK Ultra adjacent program, Operation Chaos.

[Ben Kissel]

So there's Operation Chaos, which was domestic spy program, where the idea is, that's where it started. The idea of like looking into left leaning groups in America, spying on American people, musicians. It was kind of famous again. Like John Lennon had a file, Chuck Berry had a file, but it turns out he filed that in the toilet. Got him. Whoa.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Chuck Berry maybe needed a file of some.

[Ben Kissel]

Turned out. Yeah, he was. But it really cuts to the. There's the other side of it because there was an MK Ultra side of it where they were still doing some loose LSD experiments for various types of information. And during the end of all of.

[Marcus Parks]

This, during the 60s, late 60s, 67 to 69.

[Ben Kissel]

Yes. And so if you read. Because this was where we'll talk show the idea of where Charles Manson comes into all of this, where we need to maybe do a whole episode on it. We did a segment in our live show a while ago before it became real, thanks to Chaos, Tom O'Neill's book.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah. And this is not conspiracy bullshit. This is very real. This is Charles Madsen's involvement in this.

[Ben Kissel]

Not to fully spoil it, but this is kind of like the crux of it. It's of how somebody like Charles Manson got involved and kind of like what Tom O'Neill discovered, which was really interesting. So Manson's parole officer, who dude named Roger Smith, he was a part of a federally funded group that was researching LSDs and drug use amongst the San Francisco population. Specifically anybody living any kind of woo wee woo lifestyle, they loved it. They opened up a clinic called the Haight Ashbury Free Medical Clinic that basically just gave out free acid to a bunch of people, like. And then what they would do is they'd come back, they would ask them how their experience was or like what this was. They people would go and live with some of the people they were giving acid to, which led to a. Which led. Led to a report written on the Manson family before they were the quote unquote, Manson Family called the group Marriage Commune. A case study which is people went and. Because the Manson family would come in to get free acid and Manson would show up with all these chicks, right? And then some of these chicks might have been used in some form of version of Midnight Climax that was happening at the time. Right. These girls were all kind of all acid. They were also doing like various levels of sex work.

[Marcus Parks]

Midnight Climax had been done. Those safe houses have been closed since 1966. Have they? Have they?

[Ben Kissel]

Because also what's interesting is that Jolly west was a part of this whole thing too. Giving Manson acid and then mooring him from. From reality, essentially, and kind of like pushing him towards like, you should search your own group. You should go out there and do that. And Jolly west is really interesting because I didn't know he denied being part of MK Ultra up until his death. Where he was like, that was not me. That was not me.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, that was the guy that filled the elephant full of acid. The elephant that shat itself and then had a seizure and then died. That was Jolly West.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, it wasn't a good experiment. So Charles Manson, he really is an American creation.

[Ben Kissel]

He really is. But because they kind of let him.

[Marcus Parks]

Go in every way.

[Ben Kissel]

Where you see the conspiracy thing and the hook is, is that you see that during this time period from 67 to 69, Charles Manson is arrested several times for various crimes. And he is never put all the way through the process, which is really interesting. He keeps getting let go. Because up at this point, Manson spent most of his life in and out of jail. Why it would not seem to be a problem to have someone whose rap sheet is that pop him right back in jail. Right? Why, why, why the fuss? But they would keep releasing him. And also it seems that the CIA themselves and members of the CIA and his parole officer allowed him to travel to Los Angeles where he set up shop, where the Manson family became the Manson Family that we know. And because they look the other way, because a part of it's about like, let's see what happens here. But then we don't know because then that's. We're saying, did he actually get the full MK Ultra treatment? Was he getting hypnosis? Was he getting. Getting all that kind of shit?

[Henry Zebrowski]

Or was hypnotized?

[Ben Kissel]

Charles Manson, I am hypnotism. They go down there and they just. But the idea of like watching the acid spread down the coast of California thanks to the Manson family, it's really interesting. We should read chaos by Tom O'Neill.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, it's on my list, definitely. Well, the thing is about the Manson family is the kind of acid they were using was Orange Sunshine, which was known to be government acid. So it's quite possible, if not definite, that the Manson family was getting their acid from the. The government. Not necessarily the CIA, but definitely government agents.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Finally, the government does something good for the people.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, no, it resulted in the murders of the Tate, you know, the Tate LaBianca murders.

[Ben Kissel]

Not for them, you know, and then that's true, right? Because now we got Unabomber and Manson all touched, which you could see why things like program to kill have a thing to stand on. Because you say, like, well, look, it did all this, but again, if you're listening to Henry Lee Lucas and you think he telling the truth, you're a fucking moron.

[Marcus Parks]

You're an absolute fucking moron if you think Henry Lou Lucas is telling the truth about fucking anything.

[Henry Zebrowski]

All right.

[Marcus Parks]

So with the exposure of Operation Chaos, President Gerald Ford formed a committee to investigate the CIA's activities on U.S. soil. That was called the Rockefeller Commission, so named because it was headed by Gerald Ford's Vice president, Nelson Rockefeller.

[Henry Zebrowski]

It's got a big ass tomb. His grave site once. Where it's in Sleepy Hollow.

[Marcus Parks]

No shit.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah.

[Marcus Parks]

Now, while the Rockefeller Commission was largely toothless and didn't mention MK Ultra by name, it did discover that the CIA had run tests of potentially dangerous drugs on unsuspecting American citizens. It also mentioned the death of Frank Olson, the agent who supposedly committed suicide by jumping out of a hotel window, but was in all probability murdered by the CIA after Sidney Gottlieb dosed him. This opened the CIA to lawsuits by Olson's family, but the whole thing was eventually kibosh. You're gonna love this. Ford's chief of staff, Donald Rumsfeld, working in conjunction with his deputy Dick Cheney.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Two of the most dangerous Americans that have ever lived. Donald Rumsfeld is not cute. Steve Carell should have never played him in that movie Vice. That movies made Dick Shady seem like he's not a war criminal. And he is. And the unknown known that Rumsfeld documentary. Give it a watch. It is fascinating. But again, listen, Slow Burn.

[Ben Kissel]

The podcast that I've also been listening to to about what it took to get us to invade Iraq in 2003.

[Marcus Parks]

Is also fucked up.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, you can believe about 4% of what he says. Yeah, it's unbelievable.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, because Rumsfeld and Cheney stepped in, there was no lawsuit, and the family had to make do with a $750,000 payoff. But after the Rockefeller Commission was deemed insufficient to explore the CIA's crimes, more committees were formed to get to the bottom of it. And eventually they got to Sidney Gottlieb. Gottlieb agreed to testify to a committee, but only in exchange for full imm. And while he answered almost every question with all the clarity of a Magic.

[Ben Kissel]

8 ball, you sure did a little bit of that. A little snippet of that. Because he did a lot of like. Depends on your meaning of the term, sitting down. What do you mean by sitting down?

[Marcus Parks]

It did come out that he illegally destroyed CIA files. These, of course, were the MK Ultra files. But since Gottlieb had secured immunity before testimony, nothing happened.

[Henry Zebrowski]

That is one clever way to do it.

[Ben Kissel]

Oh, yeah.

[Marcus Parks]

But that wasn't the end of the investigation. Nor was got Le Scot free in 1977. Jimmy Carter appointed a man named Stansfield Turner as director of the CIA with the mandate to bring transparency to this obviously corrupt and dangerous organization.

[Ben Kissel]

That poor, poor peanut farmer. He saw a UFO and he thought he knew it all. He thought he could really get the cat by the tail. And it sound like when you are a soft spoken little tiny man, your tiny man smoke weed on the roof with Willie Nelson. No one really listens to you and you don't do anything.

[Henry Zebrowski]

It didn't seem to be that effective. But it was such a wonderful time of innocence in a sense, because now.

[Ben Kissel]

He'S like, we're going to fix this.

[Henry Zebrowski]

We have. Nancy Pelosi was like, of course we can have an. Of course we can have ties to Wall street and of course we can invest. We're still civilians. Of course it's a total compromise against, you know, any common interest for the public good. But Jimmy Carter gave up his peanut farm when he got president. When he became president, he said, I don't want to have any. I don't want to have any conflict of interest. So he gave up his cute peanut farm. And now that just sounds dumb.

[Marcus Parks]

He didn't even tell his brother Billy to stop selling Billy Beer. And that was a huge black mark on Jimmy Carter's reputation that there was this drunk asshole from Georgia walking around talking about how much he loved Billy Beer. Going off that and the human experimentation trials first exposed by the Rockefeller Commission. An author named John Marks filed a Freedom of Information act request and obtained all of the MK ULTRA files that had escaped destruction. The documents were released at a press conference and Sidney Gottlieb was again summoned. However, he again secured immunity and again dodged the most important questions with answers.

[Ben Kissel]

Like, I can't remember. My remembrance is not that clear. I'm a little hazy. It sounds like it's.

[Marcus Parks]

Those are direct quotes, by the way. I'm a little hazy. So in 1979, using what information he had available, John Marks published the Search for the Manchurian Candidate, blowing the lid off MK ULTRA and providing fodder for conspiracy theorists for years to come. Gottlieb, meanwhile, retired to a quiet life and refused to talk about MK ULTRA to anyone. As the years went by, however, MK ULTRA victims began filing lawsuits against Gottlieb, including inmates who've been subjected to LSD testing and patients who have been involved in Ewan Cameron's psychic driving experiments.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I can just see him in the corner, eating a pastrami on rye and just looking out the window. And then everyone's like, I wonder what he's thinking about?

[Ben Kissel]

No, he's just watching trails like he's just like, enjoying the flashbacks.

[Marcus Parks]

It's speculated that as a result of his constant legal battles, Gottlieb may have committed suicide on March 7, 1999. A company man to the end, who died rather than reveal his secrets.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Wow.

[Marcus Parks]

His official cause of death, however, is a long suffering heart condition. But considering Gottlieb's vast knowledge of undetectable poisons, it isn't far fetched to think that his last, last covert victim may have been himself.

[Ben Kissel]

Timely Fine. To have the final meal I always would expect Arby's pouring out poison into the horsey sauce.

[Henry Zebrowski]

You tell me horsey sauce isn't a freaking psyop. Dude, that changed the game.

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah, dude. Hot white, spicy white, that's what I gotta go for.

[Henry Zebrowski]

But again, there is a massive cabal against good food in this country. We've talked about it. The four factory farms are totally US over and Arby's is gone downhill because of it.

[Marcus Parks]

Yep, yep. All the bread tastes like fucking cardboard.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I don't know what happened.

[Ben Kissel]

I just glad to see that your time now away from Arby's has gotten so far that you could start to admit these things and that you can finally start to see with clarity. Your eyes can be open to the Arby's Meath.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I know, it was just. It was a pretty hot new kid on the block. It's definitely not anymore.

[Marcus Parks]

Now, famously, Bill Clinton somewhat apologized for human experimentation in 1995.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Talk about post, not clarity.

[Marcus Parks]

Although contrary to popular belief, MK Ultra was not a part of the apology at all.

[Ben Kissel]

I tell you what, there's sometimes when you are. You're looking at someone just right, and a woman becomes an ashtray.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, my God, Daryl Hammond, you're covered in stains and you're hammered.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, rather, the apology concerned human radiation experiments.

[Henry Zebrowski]

But if you replace, oh my God, you know, our country is fucked. We're like, all right, we just got to make a blanket apology for human radiation experiments.

[Ben Kissel]

Okay, all right. That one's done.

[Henry Zebrowski]

That one's done. Boom. Check.

[Marcus Parks]

But if you replace the words human radiation experiments with MK Ultra experiments, every single statement he made about what was done tracks perfectly.

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah, because if you want to have a fun little depressing Sunday, you should look up the two lane experiments on radiation on mentally handicapped people. And it ain't nice. Because I tell you what, they don't turn into the Hulk.

[Marcus Parks]

No.

[Henry Zebrowski]

That's so sad.

[Marcus Parks]

They put uranium in their breakfast cereal.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Jesus. For what?

[Marcus Parks]

To see what would happen.

[Henry Zebrowski]

What do you think is going to happen?

[Marcus Parks]

Well, as far as why Clinton chose that moment to apologize, we looked into the possibility that it could have been a distraction for one of Clinton's many scandals.

[Ben Kissel]

I got to apologize for something.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Apologize for not killing Osama bin Laden.

[Marcus Parks]

But ultimately nothing matched up. In the end, this apology largely mattered only to the fact families of the victims and conspiracy theorists as further confirmation that America does shady. Now, the CIA's MK Ultra work had, as we said, a legacy of torture that lasts to present day. Specifically in the CIA so called enhanced interrogation techniques that became such a point of contention during the war on terror. And I say that now realizing that that is not necessarily present day. That was almost 15 years ago.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Wow, we are old breath. You can start drinking if you were born in the year 2000.

[Ben Kissel]

I don't want to hear about it. I don't want to hear about it.

[Marcus Parks]

But it's arguable that MK ultra's biggest impact over the decades has been felt most in conspiracy theory. Because one could argue that QANON would not have gained as much traction if its leaders didn't have MK ULTRA as a jumping off point.

[Ben Kissel]

Now we know that every president's a murderer, right? We know every king, anybody that has any sort of place anywhere where every government kills people and does nefarious. The thing about MK ULTRA that was so very specific is the fact that it really showed wanton absolute like no rules. Like the American people, you we're gonna do whatever we want because we know what's best for you. And the thing is, is that what that does is create a really fun platform for then to say anything then could have happened within those 149 sub projects of MK Ultra because they were like, well, if anything held that, now we can just stick in a new theory because that's number 147. Like if you look at all the conspiracy theory websites we go through, you just go through all of the. Because you really have to sift through what was real and what was not. And also straight up understand. Well, if seven boxes of MK ULTRA documents were destroyed, maybe the proof for these other ones were gone. And maybe that one guy, Randy247 on YouTube, he knows.

[Henry Zebrowski]

He knows. Yes. The, the. I always catch myself with conspiracy. As soon as they think the government is too competent, I'm like, yeah, you probably, probably making that up.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, yeah, because that's the problem. Remember guys, it's veep. That's what government is, really is. It's veep.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Really Is fantastic show.

[Marcus Parks]

One of my favorites. Well, long before all Those dickheads created QAnon as a joke that got way out of hand, and long before Russia co opted the idea of satanic democrats to cause mass chaos to division and confusion, there was a little conspiracy theory born out of MK Ultra called Project Monarch.

[Ben Kissel]

And again, if you were a member of Project Monarch, you're going to want to shut off the podcast right now. First of all, shut off the podcast and you're going to want to go get a schmitz. Go down there, go to the.

[Marcus Parks]

Deserve it.

[Ben Kissel]

You really seriously. Take care of yourself. Because the problem is that some of the secrets we're about to reveal right now might make you kill your family. But I'm going to say this right now, straight up. Never kill a podcaster.

[Marcus Parks]

Never.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Okay. Wow. Really great work.

[Marcus Parks]

Holy, dude. What if that's a activation phrase, though? Oh, man.

[Ben Kissel]

Cuz I hope it's not one of these, cuz I got a whole list of activation phrases right here.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Are they.

[Ben Kissel]

I got a couple of good ones. I got stuff like turn your genie free. Papa cork.

[Henry Zebrowski]

That just activated me to drink wine.

[Ben Kissel]

Continue.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I'm gonna do more.

[Ben Kissel]

We're gonna get. Oh, no, there's more activation commands.

[Marcus Parks]

All right, now, the claims made by people who say they were part of Project Monarch are, to say the least, a bit unhinged, and they're far more graphic than the worst. Hillary Clinton drinks the adrenochrome of children conspiracy theories. You think spirit cooking is something. This shit gets dark.

[Ben Kissel]

Now the illum. How the Illuminati create an undetectable total mind control slave is filled with some of the worst passages I've. I've read in quite a bit of time where it's like. Because you know what it is it's all about? It's the big shit rooms.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

[Ben Kissel]

It's the stuff where, like, kids are supposed to be dumped into shit. Like, we'll get into it. Let me know when you want me to go. Sure, just fucking let me know when I can get out of this fucking. I'm ready to go. I'm a horse at the line. I want to start talking about it. I got to get it out of me. I got to get this out of me.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Is that what happened at Woodstock? 99 was Green Day. It was Limp Bizkit. A trigger. Yeah.

[Ben Kissel]

We had child shit room was actually on the morning of the third day.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Fantastic.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, basically, Project Monarch rests on the idea that MK Ultra mind control technology actually worked and was applied to hundreds if not thousands, if not millions of innocent people in the service of a satanic, all powerful, omniscient deep state.

[Ben Kissel]

3 million Americans and counting. Canaanite rituals taken from the secret schools laid in. Not only is it just hypnotism, brother, you're also getting attached to literal demons. They use demons in the programming to help you get more hypnosis.

[Henry Zebrowski]

So the CIA has contact with demons?

[Ben Kissel]

They are demons. It's not even like, oh, they're beaten, they're mean. They are actual incarnations of spiritual demons.

[Marcus Parks]

Okay, so the CIA. So how far up do the demons go? Is everyone a demon? Like, for example, does everyone who run for president a demon? According to this Jeb Bush a demon?

[Ben Kissel]

According to this book? It depends on how Jewish you are. No, no, no, no. That's just.

[Marcus Parks]

Then why the didn't Bernie Sanders win the presidency?

[Ben Kissel]

Hmm? Or did he?

[Henry Zebrowski]

He didn't.

[Ben Kissel]

Or did he?

[Henry Zebrowski]

Well, he didn't.

[Marcus Parks]

Involving everything from mass sex slavery to satanic ritual abuse to, of course, pedophilia. Project Monarch is an old school conspiracy that imagines that every single politician above the level of city council is a cartoonishly evil psychopath who commits heinous acts of sexual deviance and violence for the pure sake of committing them.

[Ben Kissel]

And that's where they're actually correct.

[Marcus Parks]

Now, when, say, old school, I mean that Project Monarch is a conspiracy theory with no particular agenda. While QAnon paints the world in terms of heroes and villains, that is Republicans and Democrats.

[Ben Kissel]

And has an agenda because there is. In the very end, people are hijacking that movement in order to destabilize our government.

[Marcus Parks]

Of course, now, when I say old school, I mean that Project Monarch is a conspiracy theory with no particular agenda. While QAnon paints the world in terms of heroes and villains, that is Republicans and Democrats.

[Ben Kissel]

But QAnon does have an agenda, because nowadays.

[Marcus Parks]

Exactly what I'm saying.

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah, yeah, but they hijacked it to destabilize the government.

[Marcus Parks]

Of course. Monarch is from a time when conspiracy saw the entirety of the government, as well as everyone in the entertainment industry, as an unstoppable enemy. In other words, conspiracy was a God of malice rather than an octopus. A concept of something so powerful that there were no heroes. Rather, every single one of us was a victim, whether we knew it or not. And that applied double to the people who claimed to have participated in these conspiracies.

[Ben Kissel]

Well, the. The only thing that stops you is the fucking pure power of Christ. Ah, yeah. Christ is the only one who break my programming with a little kiss. Down south I Green Christ. He comes and he kisses my balls. I don't think about killing the President.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, well, there you go. Another life saved by Jesus. The only person that is clean is Wilford Brimley.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, you think so?

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yes, because all he cares was flax and horses and telling.

[Ben Kissel]

He got out of the Hollywood machine. He moved to Wyoming.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, well, but he is Hollywood. He's Wilford Brimwick.

[Ben Kissel]

He walked away.

[Marcus Parks]

However, Project Monarch does share something with modern conspiracy. Both are ways for people to make sense of a chaotic world. And many times, especially with Project Monarch, people found ways to plug their personal problems into conspiracy theory.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Explains why my wife Kathy doesn't appreciate my affair too seriously. This is ridiculous.

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah, but you know what? Too see, it's not just. It's not just. It's like you even say personal problems. I. I think it really is some of the worst. As we'll see. Because of the nature of Project Monarch. It really seems like a way to explain sexual abuse that is done to you at an early age that you try to find much like how back in the day when we did ghost, alien or molested where like the idea of like these memories that could be screen memories, whatever it is that your brain sets up or what you have come to believe are like you searching. You could create a very involved fantasy world that. That mocks us all up. Or I will posit, people read conspiracy theories and they read about MK Ultra and then they ape it in their activity. This is the nuanced way this is through the tube of anybody can follow me to follow me that people can. I mean, this is intense group, group rape. You dressed as Spider man and Bill Clinton, all this kind of shit. I really do like think that they'll do this shit so that you don't believe and that you do sound like a crazy person when it says this type of shit. And then it folds into conspiracy theory. Even though it did actually happen to you. Who knows?

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, but just because you're attacked by a werewolf doesn't mean that werewolves exist.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Unless you're in London.

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah, and then you're like.

[Henry Zebrowski]

There we go. Werewolves of London. Warren Zon has a great song about some.

[Ben Kissel]

Everybody knows that song, The Envoy, though.

[Henry Zebrowski]

It's called the Envoy. That's a different song that I was plugging.

[Marcus Parks]

The Envoy.

[Henry Zebrowski]

War Z needs his help. Yeah, he's dead, but rise from your grave. Hey, what's up, everyone? How you doing? Ben Kissel here with Henry Zabowski. Yeah, it's me, man. Yeah, bro. Henry Zabowski. Is smoking some of that. Sweet. Last podcast on the left, babe. Go out there and purchase yourself some. I hope you enjoy it. We have Sativa, we have Indica and we have a hybrid and I have to tell you from my personal experience.

[Ben Kissel]

They are wonderful, super tasty live resin. You really get that delicious wheaty taste, which is what I like. And three different experiences. You go to your local vape store and get it.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Absolutely. Thank you all so much for supporting the show. We absolutely love you. Can't wait to see you on the road and get that vape. Put it in your brain and have a good time.

[Ben Kissel]

And if you want us at your favorite weed store, give them a call and ask for them by name. Last podcast on the left, it's weed.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Hail yourselves everyone.

[Ben Kissel]

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[Marcus Parks]

Now out of all the unbalanced people who claim to have been a part of Project Monarch, the most lucid by far is Kathy O'Brien. She to have been literally raised to be an MK Ultra agent, in which she acted as both sex slave and message runner. In 1995, she co authored a book called Transformation in America.

[Ben Kissel]

Say it correct. Trans Space Formation in America.

[Marcus Parks]

This is an off the rails account of her alleged time as a Project Monarch agent. This book is co authored by her husband, Mark Phillips, who just happens to claim that he was the person who barely rescued Kathy from the clutches of her evil masters.

[Henry Zebrowski]

It's kind of cute. They got together and wrote a book.

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah, but the way they got together is that he said that he had to kidnap her, tie her to a chair, essentially waterboard her and hypnotize her until she admitted that she was a sex slave created by the US Government.

[Henry Zebrowski]

The truth about Cats and Dogs Dating, huh?

[Marcus Parks]

Now, Kathy and Mark's agenda for writing this obviously false narrative is murky to say the least. And even some fellow conspiracy theorists refer to Transformation in America Kaka as at best delusional and at worst a psyop in and of itself.

[Ben Kissel]

Get into that.

[Marcus Parks]

Mirrors within Mirrors within mirrors, right?

[Ben Kissel]

You fucking don't know who you are, Kissel. You don't know if you're a fucking up. I don't know if I'm an op, except I do know that I'm an op. But if I'm saying I'm an op, does that mean I am an op or am I a double double blind? That's super funny about it.

[Marcus Parks]

Oh yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Well, these are the conversations that are best had in Vegas.

[Ben Kissel]

We have this conversation in Vegas.

[Marcus Parks]

But no matter their intentions, Kathy and Mark concocted one of the wildest rides in conspiracy theory history. So let's go through a few of the main plot points in their book to give a full scope of how far people can take the MK Ultra idea.

[Ben Kissel]

And then I can check her story against Fritz Springmeier's manual on how to create an undetectable, total mind controlled slave so that we can see if it holds up to.

[Henry Zebrowski]

We got real scrutiny here.

[Marcus Parks]

But as a side note, there's almost no doubt that Kathy O'Brien went through some sort of immense trauma at some point in her life. And for that she has her sympathies. But the point of covering her claims is that her outlet for dealing with that trauma is extremely harmful to other people. So while we can be sympathetic, we cannot justify how much damage she's done in helping to build the base for conspiracy theories like Qanon that damage the very foundations of our democracy.

[Henry Zebrowski]

It's like David Icke who ran for office and didn't win and then it's like, I'm really sorry. And then he had to go and believe everyone was reptile.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

[Ben Kissel]

And the best part about MK Ultra, this part about Project Monarch, honestly, and the worst part of Project Monarch altogether is that straight up, we didn't need that to destabilize our democracy. We were going to do that ourselves again. Just wait it out.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yes, wait it out. We'll do it with memes. It's so much easier than we all thought.

[Marcus Parks]

Memes that are based on conspiracy theory.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Perfect. This is great.

[Marcus Parks]

Now Kathy O'Brien claims that her MK Ultra programming began soon after her birth in 1957. Graphically jumping right into it, Kathy said that her father Earl was a pedophile who substituted his penis for her mother's nipple soon after she was born.

[Ben Kissel]

I'll tell you what though, you're not gonna get any milk out of that.

[Henry Zebrowski]

No, I don't wanna.

[Ben Kissel]

I when you do read this. Because the idea is that the Illuminati and the various families of the Illuminati, they know that in order to create a perfect mind controlled slave, they must already be able to dissociate naturally. And what also the Illuminati knows that the American science foundations won't even allowed to slip into the American consciousness is that knowledge actually is transferred genetically, right? So what they do is various leaders of the Illuminati, aleister Crowley, George H.W. bush's father, Vanderbilt Bush, right. These type of guys got really into like Eastern of the eastern shit, right? The idea of meditation, smoking a lot of hashish. Do not get super dissociated knowing that their calm will be super be able to dissociate, right? So they have slex with, they have sex with other like weird trained slaves than have babies. Those babies that are put. Oh, and they are sent to this secret facility in China Lake where they go down there and they're putting these massive airfields, these big giant cages filled with babies where they are there, right? And their jobs are they are already gonna be naturally disposed to be able to dissociate. And so then when they do is they take them and yeah, they give them love for about 18 months. So they get to attach their master. But then what they do is they violently hurt them where they. Then they rip over their clothes. They put them in a dog cage, they dip them in. They literally dip them fully in shit. They make them eat shit, they make them eat blood. They make them kill. Kill other babies and all that kind of to shatter their mind to a.

[Marcus Parks]

Bunch of different babies kill other babies. How do they pull off making the babies kill other babies?

[Ben Kissel]

They literally put a knife in a baby's hand. This is in the book. This is not even the book.

[Marcus Parks]

I'm looking at the book.

[Ben Kissel]

But they put a knife literally in a child's hand to go. And you cut the baby like this. And then they cut open the baby's intestines.

[Henry Zebrowski]

This episode of Rugrats has really gotten.

[Ben Kissel]

But this is what happened to Kathy O'Brien. She was ordered automatically because the idea is that they will never then know anything. And then you shatter their personality into a million pieces. Because that's what the DID Comes from, is being what they're called. It's like reversal of message. Like this idea that you get. You get love bombed, and then you're immediately tortured by the same person who love bombs you.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, just one second, guys. My. My comet delivery is here. Comet pizza. That'll be great. Some great pizza. Something about the way it's made.

[Ben Kissel]

So she must have been a member of the Illuminati's family's child.

[Marcus Parks]

Ah, well, Kathy said that her father's repeated sexual abuses provide the first of mental compartmentalization that would make her the perfect sex slave and MK Ultra agent, implying that her father had intentionally abused her to later sell her to the US Government. So that doesn't necessarily match up because she said that she was abused in her own home and not at a gigantic silo filled with dog cages and shit.

[Ben Kissel]

And that's where I got your ass in a fucking cage, my friend. Because with Dr. Fritz Springmeier, I don't know if he's a doctor.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I don't think so.

[Ben Kissel]

What he says in here is that it's not just Illuminati families, right? Because the Illuminati families, a lot of times those.

[Marcus Parks]

And now you're negating your own. Yeah.

[Ben Kissel]

Oh, yeah, of course. No, no, it's not negating. It's adding on. It's adding on, too.

[Henry Zebrowski]

It feels like if you just agree with everything, then you don't have to be right about anything.

[Ben Kissel]

Somebody's catching on. So it's about rolling, rolling, rolling, rolling, rolling. And so the Illuminati bloodlines, right? They create the babies that will go on to program the other babies.

[Marcus Parks]

Okay?

[Ben Kissel]

Right. So their babies will grow up and be the minders of the other babies in the system.

[Henry Zebrowski]

No, lower level baby.

[Ben Kissel]

Because now we're talking about millions of babies.

[Henry Zebrowski]

And this is true.

[Ben Kissel]

Millions of babies. Because half these babies are getting just, like, slaughtered in the. Just the. Just the. The training parts.

[Marcus Parks]

Right, right. It's like the witcher that most of them don't survive witcher training. It's just like that.

[Ben Kissel]

It's just like that words. Because a lot of them are just used as props, right? They're just there. They're. They're filling the room for the main babies. They're going to become like the actual good slaves. Right? Because that's what you're looking for is a good trained slave. But the other one ones, right, Stuff like that, they mostly come from. This is from Fritz Springmeier. Liberal families that would rather have money than babies. And this idea that they would take because they pay them for the baby.

[Marcus Parks]

Oh, okay, so you're saying that liberals get each other pregnant, go through an entire nine months, tell their friends that they're pregnant, show that they're pregnant, and then at the end of it, they sell them to the Illuminati. They sell the children of the Illuminati and tell their friends what to get.

[Ben Kissel]

Paid to get paid. I just fucking monetized my hobby. Getting pregnant. That's my hobby. Because I'm a liberal and I don't care about babies.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Okay, well.

[Marcus Parks]

What Kathy's claims that her father intentionally abused her to later sell her to the US government. That means that one of the MK Ultra sub projects would have been to somehow recruit specifically incestuous pedophiles, then give them exact instructions on how they should abuse their children in just the right way to make them susceptible to MK Ultra training.

[Ben Kissel]

You were literally. You were saying sentences from the intro of this book. I think I read all of this.

[Marcus Parks]

Is that I wrote that sentence to make like that sound really stupid.

[Ben Kissel]

That's because you're reading it wrong. You have to cross your eyes.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Dude, that book is so, so thick.

[Ben Kissel]

You see how earmarked it is? I was reading this on the plane.

[Henry Zebrowski]

You shouldn't have been allowed to put it down.

[Ben Kissel]

I put it down. I put the COVID down and I just try to open up the back of was. Okay, I was in first class. So three other people had the same book.

[Henry Zebrowski]

You know, the Illuminati in the first class. Of course. It reminds me. I think I read a chick tract that has this exact storyline.

[Marcus Parks]

Yep, chick tracts are definitely related to all of this shit. But in Kathy's narrative, this assumption makes sense because she claimed that her uncle was deeply involved in Air Force intelligence, the Vatican and child pornography man.

[Ben Kissel]

Very busy.

[Marcus Parks]

Consequently, it was her uncle who introduced her father to Project Monarch, which was recruiting Multigenerational incest. Abused children with multiple personality disorder for its genetic mind control studies.

[Henry Zebrowski]

So specific.

[Marcus Parks]

Therefore, once Kathy's mind had been split, she was ready for MK Ultra. See, according to Kathy and Mark's claims, the government sought out people with multiple personality disorder because they have superhuman characteristics, such as vision. 44 times greater than the average human.

[Henry Zebrowski]

44 times greater.

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah, they're like Cyclops.

[Marcus Parks]

It really is.

[Henry Zebrowski]

It's like that movie, what was it? Not splice. I forget.

[Marcus Parks]

Split.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Split.

[Marcus Parks]

Yes. And they also have an unusually high pain threshold, which makes them both desirable agents and desirable sex slaves.

[Ben Kissel]

Well, you're supposed to be able to hypnotize them so you can light a candle underneath their pussy and they won't scream.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, my God.

[Marcus Parks]

Now, while Project Monarch subjects were ostensibly supposed to be MK Ultra agents, it seems that Project Monarch was mostly used as a sex slave ring.

[Ben Kissel]

Well, that's just for the Beta training. Then there's also Alpha training, which is people that. Those are just general mind controlled slaves. And you have the Delta training, which is like people that are. They go kill, right? They actually. The killer ones, they go when the man you're in can.

[Henry Zebrowski]

That's interesting because you love Delta. You only fly Delta. You're obsessed with your Delta points.

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah, maybe.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Fascinating.

[Ben Kissel]

Maybe there is something.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, maybe there is something there.

[Ben Kissel]

I will have to kill you someday. You got Epsilon agents, which are dogs and cats. This is true. We've got the Theta, which is psychic warfare agents. Their jobs go do. They are trained to be psychic. That is completely true. There are these Zeta slaves, which are actually the worst because they are just trained to be killed within the snuff films they make within the arms of Project Monarch. In order to get. Basically you use that, like with now currently deep fake technology. Put the face of somebody like a Donald Trump in a video with him beheading a little girl, but the little girl's real for some reason and the other one's fake.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, all right. Well, there we go.

[Ben Kissel]

Yep.

[Marcus Parks]

Now, while I'm happy you're doing it, it's that easy.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Well, this is the last episode we'll ever mention it, so get it all out.

[Ben Kissel]

I'm so excited too. I'm gonna get it out.

[Marcus Parks]

As I said, while Project Monarch subjects were mostly sex slaves for apparently multiple different reasons. Kathy said that in first grade, she remembers a quote, splash of semen coming from a senator named Guy Vanderjagt and Gerald Ford before he was president.

[Ben Kissel]

I actually.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, sure, no. From there, her hypnosis training began with none other than Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau from Canada. And by 13. You'll like this, Ben. Kathy was in.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Am I gonna like it? At what point am I supposed to start liking it?

[Ben Kissel]

You're gonna like this.

[Marcus Parks]

Kathy was in the thrall of her next programmer and handler, Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, what a nice Klansman he is.

[Marcus Parks]

D West Virginia. Senator Byrd then exposed Kathy to the satanic ritual perversions of her Catholic school principal, Father Vesbit, who was named Father Fuzzbutt by some of the kids he abused because he had a thick, hairy bottom.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, my God. And there's again, there's smatterings of truth. I'm sure it's all disgusting.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah. She might have been molested by. Something happened. Yeah.

[Ben Kissel]

They say half the time with these various Project Monarch officers is that they can be literally dressed as. Lot of times I see him dressed as clergy, dressed in druidic outfits, dressed in military gear. Like they're kind of all over the place uniforms, it sounds like.

[Marcus Parks]

After that, Kathy was taken to Wyoming, where she played the Most Dangerous game with Dick Cheney.

[Ben Kissel]

He did that in real life, though.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I'm like, oh, there's a. There's a little truth to that.

[Marcus Parks]

Oh, what about this? She said that Dick Cheney had a big hog.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I could see it. I think that I could see it being about. I could see it being six in a little.

[Ben Kissel]

Little.

[Marcus Parks]

Barely.

[Henry Zebrowski]

He's got that fat man's body.

[Marcus Parks]

Six barely. But that's the thing, is that it sits like a big barrel, but it's really difficult to get hard.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, it's weird. It's got, like, oddest tool, like coloring. Purplish.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Disgusting.

[Marcus Parks]

Robert Bird, though. Micro penis.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I could also believe that.

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

That's why they wear the robes.

[Marcus Parks]

Yep. By 1977, Kathy was forced to marry a man named Wayne Cox, whom she'd already seen participate in satanic rituals.

[Ben Kissel]

And now this is the idea that this comes from old world Satanism, this from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, like all of this kind of stuff where it's ancient. Ancient Illuminati practices that have been layered into. With the government, and the government is trying to essentially create a slave state eventually where they could totally control the entire world using hypnotism and various radio techniques.

[Marcus Parks]

For what purpose?

[Ben Kissel]

Oh, you.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I mean, I can't even believe he does.

[Ben Kissel]

I can't even believe he'd ask.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I mean, he's just inquiring. Inquiring minds wants to know.

[Ben Kissel]

I think you need to read this book. Before we can answer that question, I.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Think that book should solely be about fast food because that's what. That's what has done it all. Killing our brain.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, parroting the old satanic ritual abuse standard, Kathy said she was ritualistically impregnated by her husband, Wayne Cox, and was forced to abort the fetuses six times. This was also. Cox could consume his own offspring and quote, preserve others shaped in ceramic for sale in his interstate occult body parts business.

[Ben Kissel]

Yep. Dude tracks too, because you got right here.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, you're flipping through. What do you got?

[Ben Kissel]

Illuminati rituals are based upon the most ancient mystery religions, the Roth Childs, like the ancient Canaanite mystery rituals and use Acadian, Hittite, Canaanite, Babylonian rituals. The rituals from ancient Egypt, also heavily used by the Illuminati, which in actually does often time have many body parts in jars. You can see here, this is a body part labeled Ashley because that was the person that it got taken out of because that comes from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, and that was done by a child. The drawings draw, as you could see by the very nature of the. Of the art movie.

[Henry Zebrowski]

It's like a child who wanted to, like, sign up for art school and he sent that in as a submission and then he immediately, you know what?

[Ben Kissel]

You can't be an artist, but you would be an incredible project, Mark.

[Marcus Parks]

Sex.

[Henry Zebrowski]

No, I think maybe Child Protective Services might have a role in that.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, supposedly Cox would murder people by cutting off their hands with a machete in a Peter Pan themed ritual. Then he distributed the body parts as well as cocaine through an occult supply network running through Texas, Arkansas, Mississippi, Tennessee and Florida.

[Henry Zebrowski]

So if he gets pulled over by the cops, he's like, the cops are like, what are these hands? And then he's like, yeah, I hope they don't find the coke.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah. Now he shows them his Project Monarch identification card. And since every single cop I'm sure is probably a part of this entire.

[Ben Kissel]

Conspiracy, six out of seven.

[Henry Zebrowski]

It checks out.

[Marcus Parks]

This claim, of course, is connected to serial killer and serial liar Henry Lee Lucas, who claimed that he and Otis Toole work for a satanic syndicate called the Hand of Death, which is in turn referenced by conspiracy theorist Dave McGowan in his book Program to Kill that argues that almost all serial killers are a type of MK Ultra agent.

[Ben Kissel]

The only thing is, the beginning of Program to Kill talks about Mark Dutroux that we are going to do an episode on in the future.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, it's a fascinating story.

[Ben Kissel]

Fascinating. But Fascinating, because, again, but this is the crux of all this, right? Which is it is definite that there are massive child pornography rings and pedophile rings that work because they literally do the nature of their predilections. Have to work in groups.

[Henry Zebrowski]

The foster care system.

[Ben Kissel]

Yes, the foster care system.

[Marcus Parks]

And they get busted all the time. Child pornography.

[Henry Zebrowski]

And then there's.

[Marcus Parks]

Busted tomorrow.

[Henry Zebrowski]

There are wonderful foster care people out there taking care of kids that are great.

[Ben Kissel]

Good work saving yourself. Mark Dutroux is a serial killer that also happened to be connected to a lot of these government guys. And he basically said. And this is. He's a Belgian. He's a Belgian serial killer. And his. And this is where Program to Kill starts, which is basically, he says, I was a part of a group of guys providing kids for various fucking politicians, all of these, like, heads of state or whatever. And I just kind of, like, in my way, skimmed off the top. Like, I just took some for me.

[Henry Zebrowski]

This isn't. This what we've been discussing with Epstein, Maxwell, this whole thing, there is evidence for.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, there is evidence for it, but Mark Dutro is a serial killer. And again, if you believe a serial killer, you're a moron.

[Henry Zebrowski]

What if they believe. But what if they. I. I do think that Ted Bundy lost his flashlight one time.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, sure. Well, like that. Like actual. Like actual evidence where. If it makes sense in a human way, then yeah, but if Henry Lee Lucas is telling you that him and Odys tool went to the fucking Florida Everglades where they took a boat to a gigantic party.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, then he's probably lying.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, he's lying.

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

You know, they were never allowed to board anything that required an ID or.

[Ben Kissel]

I'm just saying it is. It is interesting. The Mark Dutro story is very interesting. And it is one of those things. Again, it's a platform for other things to be built on. And then I do believe because of the vastness of the. Of the human imagination and also the vastness of our ability to do bad things to other people, that anything is possible under the sun.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah. And if you are a fan of Program to Kill, know that he goes from Mark Dutroux to Henry Lee Lucas. The Hand of Death. And go read the hand of death, which is textbook satanic panic bullshit. That was written by a nun who used to visit Henry Lee Lucas in prison. They, yes. Handed each other into this shit for two years and then put out this stupid fucking book.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Kind of like Jodie Foster in Silence of the Lambs.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah. Now, if you can find the Hand of Death. It's a really fun read, but it's also really dumb.

[Henry Zebrowski]

All right.

[Marcus Parks]

Eventually, Kathy was transferred from Senator Robert Byrd to a new mind control handler named Alex Houston. To the public, he was a country music ventriloquist.

[Henry Zebrowski]

What a great reputation to have.

[Ben Kissel]

You might as well just call him a pedophile.

[Marcus Parks]

Admittedly, he does look like the Jimmy Savile of Puppets. Yes, that's his vibe. But to Kathy O'Brien, he was a CIA operative. From there, Kathy was handed off to Michael Aquino, the infamous Temple of Set founder, who did actually work in the CIA side PSYOP division. We know that. Interestingly, Kathy said that Aquino was the only person in the satanic government who treated her like a human.

[Ben Kissel]

Weird.

[Henry Zebrowski]

That's the one.

[Marcus Parks]

Ironic, no?

[Ben Kissel]

Well, yeah. Michael Aquino's also in Program to Kill because they can't get over it where it just comes down to it. Just sounds like he's a fucking nerd. He's got really bad eyebrows.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, he's a nerd and a fucking weirdo.

[Ben Kissel]

He looks like Eddie Munster.

[Marcus Parks]

He's a talk show guest.

[Ben Kissel]

He's interesting, I think. Again, interesting stuff.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, interesting indeed.

[Marcus Parks]

But when he wasn't being nice, a Keen and Kathy's husband were carving a hideous witch's face with silver nitrate and X acto knives onto her genitals so that when she did Kegels, a face would pop out of her vagina like a Halloween decoration.

[Henry Zebrowski]

That's what happened to Henry's head. In. In.

[Marcus Parks]

Wow.

[Ben Kissel]

That is exactly what happened.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Came out of his butthole, honestly.

[Ben Kissel]

And if you do want to carve a witch's face onto your judgment genitals with an X acto knife, we're here for you.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, I mean, show it to us.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Don't do that.

[Ben Kissel]

But if you like it.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, if you like it and you're doing it to yourself or with the consent. If you're consenting for someone else to do it for you.

[Henry Zebrowski]

No.

[Ben Kissel]

God bless.

[Henry Zebrowski]

No, I'm just gonna stand.

[Marcus Parks]

Let's not do that with Michael Aquino. Robert Bird also produced films like how to Divide a Personality and how to Create a Sex Slave.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Robert Bird is also so old and racist. He also produced Birth of a Nation.

[Marcus Parks]

And these instructional videos were produced. Produced by who else but NASA.

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah, you stood up. You need to st. I'm doing the rest of this show standing.

[Henry Zebrowski]

This is presumably thing we needed was NASA's involvement.

[Marcus Parks]

Presumably, it was with the production team they had left over after they faked the moon landing.

[Ben Kissel]

Was Actually, by that point, he was working on Clockwork Orange.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah. Well, staying in the film world, Kathy was also into introduced to Ronald Reagan, who gave her acting tips for when Kathy starred in pornography.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Okay.

[Ben Kissel]

It's important to remember Kathy, you really want to shake your head back and forth. And the key is, Kathy, you're gonna want to moan.

[Henry Zebrowski]

He was notoriously not a great actor.

[Ben Kissel]

No.

[Henry Zebrowski]

They said.

[Marcus Parks]

They always said the best thing they could say about him is that he showed up on time and sober. Apparently, Ronald Reagan wanted Kathy to call him Uncle Ronnie and he called her kitten because Reagan was apparen super into bestiality porn in which cats were fucked to death.

[Ben Kissel]

Well, yes. And also a kitten is also what you call a beta slave because what you do is you hit them with stuff, which is interesting. They A couple of things that you say to a beta slave to get him to be on you is what you do. You say like you say, ride ponies. It's time to ride ponies. It's time to play horsey. That's another one. Six is sex. Seven is heaven. Eight is great. Nine, you're mine.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, my. It's just so cool.

[Ben Kissel]

It's just that makes him horny. Try it on your wife. Red dot, Spin, spin, spin. Become another person. Then you start sucking dick.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I guess so.

[Marcus Parks]

They also. Kathy O'Brien also said that all of the men, all the politicians who abused her all use the phrase, ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.

[Ben Kissel]

They like those terms. Here come my kitten and let me pet you. Purr for me. Now that's a fluffy kitten. Purr deep.

[Henry Zebrowski]

What is that supposed to trigger?

[Ben Kissel]

Make you horny.

[Marcus Parks]

So how many do they have for making you horny? Why do they not.

[Ben Kissel]

Two pages of them. Two pages of them. There's a lot of them.

[Henry Zebrowski]

You got one more.

[Marcus Parks]

Itsy bitsy boob.

[Ben Kissel]

That's what it says here. Access code pertaining to Betty Boop programming, which actually, I don't know what Betty Boop programming is. There's certain type of female behavior according to.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I see.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, there's a lot of different kinds of programming. There's Betty Boop programming. There's wizard of Oz programming.

[Ben Kissel]

I can talk about the wizard of Oz programming. There's.

[Marcus Parks]

There's Peter Pan programing. Before we get to wizard of Oz programing, let's talk about Ronald Reagan a little bit more. He also contributed to Kathy's programming. And you're going to absolutely fucking adore this. I know you.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Another thing I'm going to adore. Okay. Because the last one I didn't love.

[Marcus Parks]

He used his well known love of jelly beans.

[Ben Kissel]

He weaponized jelly beans. This shit.

[Henry Zebrowski]

So much jelly, jelly, jelly. He passes out jelly beans.

[Ben Kissel]

Is that weed?

[Henry Zebrowski]

Quack, quack, quack, quack.

[Marcus Parks]

From what Kathy said, Reagan would switch her programming objectives by offering different jelly belly flavors, which for some reason, and I don't know why Dick Cheney fucking.

[Ben Kissel]

Hated this, he didn't like jelly beans.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

[Ben Kissel]

Jelly beans are divisive.

[Marcus Parks]

They are. Now, as far as Kathy's actual job in Project Monarch goes, she seemed to mostly be either a messenger or a drug mule. Specifically, she claimed to have delivered messages during the Iron Contra affair and made multiple puns in her book about her quote, contribution.

[Ben Kissel]

There's a lot of die a lot of little funny things in all of this stuff. Because she wants to be. Because all about being punny. You know what I mean?

[Henry Zebrowski]

Why is she trying to be punny?

[Marcus Parks]

She loves puns.

[Ben Kissel]

She does.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, my God. She was abused.

[Ben Kissel]

It's to show she's over it.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah. Well, eventually she came across the Clintons, as all good conspiracies do, and everything was totally fine. He and she described watching Bill Clinton participate in a homosexual orgy while Hillary watched an act of mutilation and told Kathy, quote, eat me.

[Ben Kissel]

Oh, God, eat me now.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Even a broken clock is right six times a day.

[Marcus Parks]

I'm not even gonna take that bait.

[Ben Kissel]

Thank you. Good.

[Marcus Parks]

Yes.

[Ben Kissel]

We'll move on.

[Marcus Parks]

In the realm of entertainment, Kathy claimed that George H.W. bush, presumably as the head of CIA, used Mr. Rogers neighborhood to make kids susceptible to mind control programs.

[Ben Kissel]

Mr. Rogers alone, the core of this whole thing. Oh, truly. I think it's about saying the most horrific thing you can think of.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

[Ben Kissel]

And then be like, would we lie?

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

[Ben Kissel]

Would we lie about this?

[Marcus Parks]

It's perverting the ultimate good always.

[Henry Zebrowski]

And it's the same thing in New York when someone's like, I need $1.17 exactly to get on the trade. The more specific. Oh, yes, obviously, you.

[Ben Kissel]

How could he just make it up? How could he. How could it possibly make up the three pages of songs that are used to program Mk Ol Jordan like green sleeves.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, what's that one?

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah.

[Marcus Parks]

Greece is a Christmas song. It was in the Charlie Brown Christmas. Vincent Guaraldi did a great version of it.

[Ben Kissel]

I'm in love with a big blue frog. The song Crazy, crazy, crazy for feeling so horny.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I wonder if they killed.

[Marcus Parks]

That woman but yeah, Hacksaw Hawkins just got caught up in the deal.

[Ben Kissel]

Oh, yeah. And then the song the Letter, where every single time the word baby is said, you replace it with master.

[Marcus Parks]

The box top song. The one that Alex Chilton wrote when he was, like, 16.

[Ben Kissel]

Yep. That was perverted as well. Give me a ticket for an airplane make got no time for a fast train Lonely days ago Mom, I'm coming home My master, he wrote me a letter.

[Marcus Parks]

Wow. Interesting. Well, I mean, everything from Robert Ludlum novels to ET To Star wars all contributed to mind control programming. George Lucas, by the way, NASA operative.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, okay.

[Marcus Parks]

Additionally, and this is perhaps this is the most offensive and egregious claim, Kathy O'Brien said that in the latter days of her time in Project Monarch, she was taken to the largest mind control slave camp in the country, which was run by Merle Haggard.

[Henry Zebrowski]

You better leave Merle alone.

[Ben Kissel]

Hey, man, you play for the audience that shows up.

[Henry Zebrowski]

That was a satire song. Okie from Muskoki was making fun of them, and then they're just like, we love it. And then his audience just turned out to be them. And he was just like, nah, I'm just a musician.

[Marcus Parks]

What are you gonna do? They didn't make silver wings any less beautiful, though.

[Henry Zebrowski]

No, it didn't.

[Marcus Parks]

However, Kathy O'Brien claims that she and her daughter were set free from Project Monarch by her future husband, Mark Phillips, who maneuvered Kathy's hus into a position where he could, quote, lift them free.

[Henry Zebrowski]

But that's why just Kathy, before you go, could you get an autograph from Merle, a huge fan.

[Marcus Parks]

And also, there was a daughter involved in there as well. I just didn't get into a daughter. She also had a daughter. Yeah, and the daughter did actually exist, but.

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah, but that's why even this book even. I shouldn't have read it for book.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Burnings, but I'm gonna burn that one.

[Ben Kissel]

But no, no, it's not because of. It's not because of the truths within. It's because it's actually even dangerous for me to read it because he said, it's the very beginning of this. The only people who should be reading this book are ordained ministers that can use the power of God to shield them from the information inside of it, because without it, that was the warning that I actually retrofitted for the top rest episode came from this book where the idea that only a minister or a man of God could possibly read all of this information and remain sane.

[Henry Zebrowski]

All right. Yes. Because, of course, all ministers are by nature.

[Ben Kissel]

Oh, yeah.

[Marcus Parks]

Huh. Well, after being rescued, all of them moved to Alaska. And Kathy apparently underwent 18 hour a day sessions to recover memories. And here is where we might find the source of Kathy's fantasies. Now, we don't know where Kathy O'Brien really was before Mark Phillips, but we do know from our study of the satanic panic that recovered memory therapy creates incredibly dark and bizarre fantasies even in people who have no trauma in their past at all.

[Ben Kissel]

Unless you believe the people who believe that memories are repressed are actually people that are within the PSYOP community saying like, oh, you're crazy. Memories, that's fake. Memories, that's all fake. Memories. They come from the inside of your brain. That's fake. Let's put there about a hypnotist because they don't want you to know. The real truth is that it's all real.

[Marcus Parks]

They're demonstrably false.

[Ben Kissel]

I don't know what to tell you, buddy. I read a book.

[Henry Zebrowski]

He's holding the book.

[Ben Kissel]

Look at this.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Pages in there filled with words that were typed out.

[Marcus Parks]

They were typed out. Not typed out correctly spelled, but typed out correctly.

[Ben Kissel]

No, no, no, they don't need that. That's the tr. The truth does not come with letters or editors, apparently.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, furthermore, these demonstrably false satanic ritual abuse stories are eerily similar to Kathy O'Brien's fantasies. And it may not be a coincidence that Kathy's memory recovery began after the satanic panic was already in full swing. She, either she or Mark Phillips could have easily bought Michelle remembers. They could have. Bucking Ben, Mike Warnke fans. This all, all this comes from somewhere. They definitely followed the McMartin preschool trial. I guarantee you that it does seem.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Like someone on acid would try to nail jello to a wall.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

And also when you're on acid, you think about an airplane. You're like, what about a bullet? There's a lot of.

[Ben Kissel]

You're looking at the pan just being like, there's nothing. All right, so nothing sticks to this.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Nonfiction to stick to it. Oh, God.

[Marcus Parks]

So just been sitting here just thinking all fucking day, like, how do you know if yogurt's gone bad, man? Like, how do you fucking know if yogurt's gone bad?

[Henry Zebrowski]

That's. You just got wonky.

[Ben Kissel]

That's the new meaning.

[Marcus Parks]

Therefore, if Kathy O'Brien did go through the kind of actual trauma that we think she did, that she almost positively did, then it's possible that she and Mark played an extended game of yes and. And through years of positive affirmation, then ping ponging it back and forth and Positive affirmat conspiracy theorists that only got stronger when fucking Kathy O'Brien got a.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Twitter account and they were monetizing it.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, they were monetizing. Both Kathy and Mark are absolutely convinced that their story is the unquestionable truth. Kathy O'Brien released a documentary this week.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, my God, what are the odds of that?

[Ben Kissel]

And I don't watch it.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Marcus. It's okay. Synchronicities are good.

[Marcus Parks]

Dude, not this one. Because you know what she's going to think? She's going to think that she released this documentary and that we actually released the fucking MK Ultra series at the same time so people would look at her documentary and think that it's fucking garbage. So I guarantee you she thinks that we are CIA PSYOP agents.

[Ben Kissel]

Guess what? She's right. I'm going to pull up her name. Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton. Eat. Eat meat me.

[Marcus Parks]

That's the fucking horrible thing about conspiracy theory is by debunking the conspiracy theory and talking about their conspiracy theory, we are in fact reinforcing their conspiracy thought.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Well, I'm happy we only did five episodes on that.

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah, that's it.

[Marcus Parks]

But.

[Ben Kissel]

And then I started watching her documentary. And don't worry, it does not go too hard on MK Ultra. But just know for a fact that masks are used by the CIA to this day to train you in MK Ultra. And that's what they're doing. And that's all it is. And that vaccines, they are poison.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, I heard. I've heard that story before.

[Marcus Parks]

Now, Kathy O'Brien is not the only one who claims to have been a part of a program like this. The other is Candy Jones, who also claims to have developed multiple personality disorder from childhood abuse. Candy was a former Miss Atlantic City and a paranormal radio personality.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Awesome.

[Marcus Parks]

Who claimed to have been qualified to use explosives, fight in close combat, resist pain, and kill with her bare hands as a result of MK Ultra programming.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Honestly, that's how you become Ms. Atlantic City.

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah, you have to be able to choke out a dude from behind.

[Marcus Parks]

I mean, she's not as graphic as Kathy O'Brien. Like, she does talk about the vagina candle experiment. She said that it happened to her in an auditorium full of CIA operatives. But really, the only thing that gives Candy's story an ounce of credibility is the fact that she made these claims under hypnosis before MK ULTRA became public knowledge. And that is interesting.

[Ben Kissel]

I think. What? There is some truth to the fact that it seems as if she shared an office when she was in an office like this. She Had a private studio, and across the way from her was a dude that moonlighted. It's a CIA asset. And it's quite possible that she was used to bring messages for the CIA to various places. Because she was a hot chick that the people that she was like kind of one of those pinups that everybody in World War II would jerk off to. And as she got a little bit older, the CIA then used her, maybe, who knows? But Operation Mind Control by Walter Bauer as a whole, like a chapter on.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, okay, but when she had those recovered memories, she didn't mention MK Ultra by name, nor did she mention anyone that we know to have been a part of the program. She mentioned others specifically by name, but not anyone that we know for a fact was a part of it.

[Ben Kissel]

Well, like Dr. Green, who actually was. Dr. Joseph Mengele did not go to South America. He moved to Virginia, my friend.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, my goodness. I didn't see that coming. What a crazy game of Clue this has turned into.

[Marcus Parks]

And as we said, brainwashing had been a part of the American consciousness for a while because the Manchurian Candidate had been made into a hit film over a decade before. So all this stuff was not complete. All this stuff was not plucked out of thin air. It was all out there to be fucking farmed.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Hypnotism. Whatever. I want my baby back. Baby back. Chilies, baby, baby.

[Ben Kissel]

Oh, chili up.

[Henry Zebrowski]

The greatest ops of all time. Advertising.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah. Eating good in the neighborhood. That's me.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I know you are. Furthermore, I'm the neighborhood.

[Ben Kissel]

I'm gonna be all that I can be in the U.S. army.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I would love to see you be an army of one. I will be one day when you make your killdozer. Yeah, we'll see.

[Marcus Parks]

Furthermore, Donald Bain, the man who co wrote Candy Jones's book. The CIA's control of candy Jones. He was mostly a popular fiction writer who had in fact, ghostwritten a number of Murder She Wrote books.

[Ben Kissel]

Angela Lansbury comes full circle talking about that fucking bitch on Sirius X.

[Marcus Parks]

She's not.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Don't talk bad about Triangle of Trust. Two out of three. Democracy. You lose. Angela Lansbury is an icon.

[Marcus Parks]

I want an icon.

[Ben Kissel]

She's a treasure.

[Henry Zebrowski]

She being praised. I love that white teapot.

[Ben Kissel]

And she's not. She's a woman. She acts like a teapot, but she's not.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Those are a cartoon.

[Ben Kissel]

Yeah, sure it was.

[Henry Zebrowski]

You're Beauty and the Beast was a cartoon.

[Ben Kissel]

I'm not gonna answer that.

[Henry Zebrowski]

You're broken.

[Marcus Parks]

So in the end, we're really not left with one of those we may never know. Conclusions? We have a pretty goddamn good idea of who was involved in MK ultra. What the objectives were, when it was done, where occurred, and why they did it. The problem is that we will never recover those seven boxes of documents destroyed by the in the 70s, nor will we ever see the personal files destroyed by Sidney Gottlieb. This, of course, will leave room for conspiracy concerning MK ULTRA for the duration of America's existence. And there's not a goddamn thing you can say to a lot of believers because they can always point to this void as evidence. But at the end of the day, I think that if we focus on the human element in all this and remember that the Octopus of Malice was ultimately just a scared, immortal, if dangerous animal, we can prevent ourselves from becoming unmoored from reality like the men who created MK Ultra.

[Ben Kissel]

Holy. The octopus is finally asleep.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Thank God. Put a bullet in his head. Isn't it enough just to know that MK ULTRA was real? Yeah, we had to extrapolate. The government was giving everybody CIA. That, for me, is like, wow, we don't need to.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, we don't need to. Extended universe this. Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Anyway, wow. All right, MK Ultra Part 5. We are putting this baby to bed. Thank you all so much for listening to this series.

[Ben Kissel]

We wrote it hard and we put it away wet.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Absolutely.

[Ben Kissel]

Just like Kathy O'Brien. But guys, I just want to say thank you for supporting us being here because guess what? You know, we're doing next week. Aliens. So excited. We're going to relax fit, and we're gonna do. We have a big old heavy hitter series coming right after that. Super excited to go into the normal world of serial killers after this. If alien abductions are real and are not also an extended psyop, it's over, dude. I know.

[Marcus Parks]

It'S over. Burn that book, throw it out the window of the next car you ride in.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Actually give it to a homeless person and see what they do. Be like, spread the word.

[Ben Kissel]

Go wink. I need a trench coat. You do, you'll be like, here's the truth.

[Henry Zebrowski]

All right, everyone. Well, thank you so much for listening and thanks so much for supporting our new show on Sirius Open Lines. You guys all have been calling in. Your stories are incredible. So we were just so honored to be over there. And it's great to be able to chit chat with you all.

[Marcus Parks]

Yes.

[Ben Kissel]

And that is Monday's Channel 103 faction talk. 4pm Pacific, 7pm Eastern. Eastern. Thank you. And then also, Side Stories is going to start doing video episodes on the Patreon next week you're going to see our big bloated faces on that as well. Really excited for you to see that. And then we've got our.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Our.

[Ben Kissel]

The last comic book on the left is coming out very soon.

[Marcus Parks]

Very soon.

[Ben Kissel]

That's by Z2. Go pre order that over on Z2 comics.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, just keep on supporting all the shows here on last podcast network. We got Top Hat. I know Spun is having a new season coming out very soon. No Dogs has a new season coming out. All right everyone, well, thank you so much for listening. Hail yourselves.

[Ben Kissel]

Let the kings be kings. Let the bankers be bankers. You are the priests.

[Marcus Parks]

Be priests.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Hail yourselves.

[Marcus Parks]

Hail Gein. It's over.

[Ben Kissel]

Hail Satan. Release me, Satan.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Magoos Delations, everybody.

[Ben Kissel]

Hail me if you will.

[Marcus Parks]

Bye.

[Ben Kissel]

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