Last Update on the Left - Episode 11 - Return to Skinwalker Ranch

Summary

Last Podcast on the Left: Last Update on the Left - Ep. 11

"Return to Skinwalker Ranch"

Date: January 9, 2026
Hosts: Marcus Parks, Henry Zebrowski, Ed Larson

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Episode Overview

This episode marks the hosts' long-awaited return to the infamous Skinwalker Ranch, exploring developments since their original multi-part series years ago. The conversation tracks the enduring mysteries, conspiracies, and cultural myths surrounding the ranch—considered by some the most paranormal-investigated property in the US. The hosts discuss the evolution of research, government involvement, the personal risks of paranormal investigation, and recent Skinwalker Ranch media projects, blending humor with deep-dive skepticism and fascination.

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Key Discussion Points

Setting the Tone: Banter & Belly Talk

• (01:32-02:29) The episode starts with comedic banter about Marcus's belly, blending bodily humor with the “expanding” subject of Skinwalker Ranch.
  • Notable Quote: Henry: “If I have one sip of yeast, my body expands. But we're not just talking about our bodies expanding. No, no, we're talking about the ever-expanding coverage of the skin...” (02:29)

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What is a Skinwalker? Origins & Lore

• (02:42-05:38) Ed jokes, “Aren’t we all skinwalkers because we have skin and we walk?” leading into Henry and Marcus’s explanation:
  • Origins as a Navajo legend (specifically Ute tribe—clarified at 05:45).
  • Skinwalkers are shamans who commit taboo acts (notably cannibalism) to gain power to shapeshift into animals for nefarious purposes.
  • The ranch is named after the “Trail of the Skinwalker”, feared as haunted and avoided by Native communities.
  • Notable Quote: Henry: “They give up their own humanity in order to be able to change form into various animals to do nefarious shit... It’s to leave. But it comes with a host of other negative associations and bad juju powers.” (05:04)

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Skinwalker Ranch: History & Phenomena

• (05:52-07:20) Recap of the ranch:

  • 500-acre property in Utah’s Uinta Basin, notorious for UFOs, shapeshifting creatures, portals, poltergeist activity, and cattle mutilations.
  • “Most researched 500-acre plot of land in the world”—multiple scientific and pseudoscientific investigations.

• (07:01-08:53) Phenomena described:

  • Clouds that seem “stuck”

  • “Butthole portals” in the sky letting ships in and out

  • Giant dire wolves, poltergeist and teleporting cattle

  • Bizarre technical failures: Cameras and security gear disconnected in unexplainable ways

  • Notable Quote: Henry: “One thing that's also really weird about Skinwalker Ranch is portals... they literally saw buttholes gape in the sky and then ships would come in and out of the buttholes.” (07:01)

• (08:53-09:37) Ownership changes:

  • Sherman family’s experiences (e.g. giant wolves shot and shrugging off bullets).
  • Sold to Robert Bigelow, billionaire hotelier and space entrepreneur, who installed NIDS (National Institute for Discovery Science).

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The Bigelow/NIDS Era & Government Involvement

• (09:16-14:13)

  • NIDS conducted extensive investigations for years, but Bigelow tightly controlled and hoarded their data.

  • Senator Harry Reid secured $22 million in government funding; research was shrouded in secrecy and ended inconclusively.

  • Government was interested in whether the phenomena could be weaponized.

  • Many findings were ambiguous; much “evidence” consisted of witness testimonies, some possibly using security guards as “barometers” for effect rather than objective detectors.

  • Notable Quote: Marcus: “It’s a study on how to study this stuff… because that’s one of the things paranormal activity... has really struggled with... How do we quantify this stuff?” (12:30)

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Witness Testimony & Elusiveness of Evidence

• (12:50-14:13)

  • The hosts discuss the difficulties of capturing and interpreting paranormal evidence.

  • Many key researchers believed the most significant information was in anecdote and indirect effects rather than photos or traditional proof.

  • Notable Quote: Henry: “The measurements that they were using were coming from the humans that were there in their reactions to the phenomenon.” (10:55)

• George Knapp’s importance as an investigator and his mixed feelings about the podcast’s earlier coverage, which turned positive after hearing their work.

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Media Hype, Secrecy, and the Power of “What If?”

• (15:16-17:41)
  • George Knapp’s integrity and frustration with lack of concrete evidence.
  • Why some alleged key photographic evidence hasn’t been released—fear of instant debunking or loss of relevance.
  • Keeping something “in the vault” sustains mystique, funding, and public attention.
• (17:41-18:03) Early mainstream coverage kept the ranch mysterious; post-TV era, now everyone knows its name.

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Access, the Hitchhiker Effect, and Personal Risks

• (18:04-20:23) Ed asks if they can visit—tours are invite-only, typically access is tightly controlled.
• (18:51-19:06)
  • Marcus and Henry discuss the “Hitchhiker Effect”—investigators report bringing home paranormal phenomena (poltergeist activity, voices, blue orbs) that sometimes lead to health crises or lasting spiritual afflictions.
  • Notable Quote: Marcus: “Most people who go to Skinwalker Ranch ... brought something home with them. And what that something is, no one really knows.” (26:23)

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Book Update: “Skinwalkers at the Pentagon”

• (22:59-25:53)
  • George Knapp, Colm Kelleher, and James McCaskey’s follow-up book examines what happened to government research post-NIDS.
  • Investigates AATIP, OSAP, and the tangled lineage between official government research agencies.
  • Points out the role of religious (specifically conservative Christian) resistance within government as a deterrent to continued research—some viewed phenomena as demonic and “dangerous.”

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Hitchhiker Phenomenon in Depth

• (26:23-28:15)

  • “Hitchhiker effect” purportedly responsible for various illnesses and ongoing hauntings; one story involves a blue orb passing through a man who subsequently gets cancer.
  • Speculation Robert Bigelow sold the ranch after his wife developed fatal leukemia, believed to be connected to the ranch. (27:35)

• Myth-busting: Marcus refutes the “Indian burial ground” trope as a racist, media-invented cliché. (28:10-29:28)

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Secret Materials & Theories

• (29:41-31:44)

  • Knapp’s reporting hints at rumors of “exotic materials” being moved around, possibly in private hands, and big secrets yet unrevealed.
  • Henry jokes about “insider information,” leading to playful Dr. Seuss references.
  • Discussion of serious health consequences among researchers (possibly autoimmune in nature, not radiation), with Knapp and others reporting poltergeist and health effects at home.

• Notable Quote: “Whatever it is, is making us very sick… Not unlike long COVID… they don’t know what the hell it is, because it’s not radiation poisoning, it’s something else.” (31:55)

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Recent Ownership: Brandon Fugal and the TV Era

• (38:10-43:39)
  • Ranch bought by flamboyant real estate magnate Brandon Fugal, who initially sought anonymity but became a central reality TV figure (“Secrets of Skinwalker Ranch”).
  • Fugal’s “movie life”—owns iconic props, pop-culture enthusiast.
  • Fugal’s insistence: no fakery, his own research team, no reveal of his identity (the last was refused).
  • Fugal claims to have witnessed a classic disc-shaped UFO, shifting him from buyer to “experiencer”. (43:00)
• Tourism, waivers, lawsuits: Visitors must sign waivers accepting risk of “ghost cancer.” (40:33)
  • Notable Quote: Marcus: “Everyone who goes on Skinwalker Ranch does have to sign a waiver saying I might get ghost cancer.” (40:33)

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The Ongoing Research & The TV Shows

• (44:14-48:48)
  • Colorful crew: “Dragon” the security chief, Jim Morse (ranch manager and sole “skinwalker” witness), and Dr. Eric Bard (principal investigator).
  • “Secrets of Skinwalker Ranch” TV show features a sincere, if sometimes awkward, attempt at documentation.
  • Recaps skeptical and enthusiastic researchers (like Dr. Travis Taylor, former “Rocket City Rednecks” host, now a believer).
  • Field stories: Reports of synchronicities, blue orbs, and more persistent “hitchhiker” events following research staff home. (51:27)

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Identity, Humorous Digressions & Pop Culture

• (46:55-47:07)
  • “Dragon” nickname origin: initially ironic, now permanent, much to the real security chief’s dismay.
• Pop references: DC/Marvel, GNR parody, and jokes about a themed barbecue restaurant (“The Mutilated Cow”) keep the mood light but skeptical.

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Final Thoughts: Paranormal Gaps, Skepticism, and the Unknown

• (53:02-55:47)
  • Physical effects (“don’t dig on the land”)—crew members developing mysterious symptoms (fluid on brain, etc).
  • Spiritual exhaustion: “The ranch got burnt out. …By the end of NIDS, activity had all but stopped” (37:46)
  • Marcus and Henry: Paranormal events remain “subtle,” elusive by conventional measurement. Analogy to technology gaps before microscopes made bacteria visible.
  • Notable Quote: Marcus: “I'm not gonna use a camera to take a picture of an atom... I think we're just in that same technology gap.” (55:04)
• (54:24-55:47)
  • Ed: “Seems like there’s nothing there.”
  • Henry: “It's more like it doesn't want you to have it. Whatever is there, it doesn't want you to have it.”
  • Marcus insists: “I think we just don't know how to record it... there's absolutely something there.”

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “They give up their own humanity in order to be able to change form into various animals to do nefarious shit.” – Henry, (05:04)
• “Is the mind talking about my belly going to be the start of this episode of last update on the left?” – Marcus, (01:58)
• “One thing that's also really weird about Skinwalker Ranch is portals... buttholes gape in the sky and then ships would come in and out of the buttholes.” – Henry, (07:01)
• “Most people who go to Skinwalker Ranch ... brought something home with them. And what that something is, no one really knows.” – Marcus, (26:23)
• “It’s a study on how to study this stuff… because that’s one of the things paranormal activity... has really struggled with.” – Marcus, (12:30)
• “Everyone who goes on Skinwalker Ranch does have to sign a waiver saying I might get ghost cancer.” – Marcus, (40:33)
• “I'm not gonna use a camera to take a picture of an atom... I think we're just in that same technology gap.” – Marcus, (55:04)
• "It's more like it doesn't want you to have it. Whatever is there, it doesn't want you to have it. And it's not yours to have, really." – Henry, (54:31)

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Highlights & Memorable Moments

• Playful arguments over paranormal risk—who would actually visit Skinwalker Ranch.
• Running jokes about “butthole portals,” “ghost cancer,” and barbecue restaurants named after cattle mutilations.
• Marcus’s analogy of technology gaps in investigation: what’s missing might be the right instrument, not the phenomenon.
• Candid reflection on media cycles, UFOlogy, and the durability of unsolved mystery in pop culture.

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Conclusion

This “Update” episode perfectly balances skeptical analysis, paranormal enthusiasm, and the show’s signature irreverent wit. The hosts remain undecided but fascinated: whatever happens at Skinwalker Ranch, they agree, it resists easy answers and may forever remain more legend than solvable case.

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For superfans, references to previous Skinwalker Ranch episodes (circa 2016) and related books, documentaries, and reality series are sprinkled throughout. Newcomers get a thorough, funny, and insight-packed primer on why Skinwalker Ranch has endured as America's strangest supernatural legend.

Transcript

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[Henry Zebrowski]

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[Marcus Parks]

That's when the cannibalism started.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Last update on the left.

[Marcus Parks]

I thought my belly was going away and then I ate a sandwich and it came back.

[Henry Zebrowski]

What do you mean?

[Marcus Parks]

I. I was doing the workout. I thought my little belly was going away.

[Henry Zebrowski]

It goes in and out.

[Marcus Parks]

And then I ate a sandwich and it came back out again.

[Ed Larson]

You tell you're really thin.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah. Yeah. That means you're like a boa constrictor. You know, if I could see the outline of the recent lunch that you've had. Incredible. I could see the ruffles of the lettuce.

[Marcus Parks]

Is the mind talking about my belly going to be the start of this episode of last update on the left?

[Henry Zebrowski]

I think it has to be.

[Ed Larson]

I think it has to be.

[Marcus Parks]

Welcome. My name is Marcus Parks.

[Henry Zebrowski]

It's me, Henry Zabrowski. And wow. We're back here again.

[Ed Larson]

I'm Ed Larson and the update is. Marcus now has a stomach.

[Henry Zebrowski]

It's the best thing to happen to the show. I like him a little. I like you. I like it comfortable.

[Marcus Parks]

And I am comfortable. I am. I had a bagel and then I had a sandwich and now I got a belly because I'm a little skinny man.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Well, guess what, man, if I have one sip of yeast, my body Expands. But we're not just talking about our bodies expanding. No, no, we're talking about the ever expanding coverage of the skin.

[Ed Larson]

Now my first question is oh, aren't we all skin walkers because we have skin and we walk.

[Henry Zebrowski]

No, but it definitely think of like.

[Ed Larson]

A scarier actual term than something that we all do and have back in.

[Henry Zebrowski]

They technically comes from. It's actually, it should be the SW word because it's actually an old timey ghost racist term for humans.

[Ed Larson]

Oh, ghosts say it to us.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yes, it is an old.

[Ed Larson]

Well, they think they're fucking better than us.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yes they do. Because they know where aliens live. This fucking abandoned house was great before all these goddamn skinwalkers moved in. Grandpa. Hey, I know I only died of COVID and I'm nine years old but hey listen, you gotta keep up with the times. Grandp is Shaw.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, the reason why they're called skinwalkers is that skinwalker comes from the old Native American legend. And I think skinwalker is like the literal translation for. And I might be talking out of my ass here. I'm just thinking that it's like the literal translation of what the Uinta Basin people. I can't remember exactly what tribe it.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Was, but I'll catch you up. Right now the skinwalker Ranch. Just remember it was a family lived on Skinwalker Ranch. They would go ahead and experience and it was a 500 acre farm in the middle of Uinta Basin, Utah. It is this area of the world is known for its UFOs. When we covered this a lot not that long ago.

[Marcus Parks]

I mean it was like six years ago dude.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Jesus Christ. It is long. But if you go through all of the stuff like this area has years and years and years of various UFO experiences that have built up over time and, and this one phenomena called the Skinwalker phenomena. So at the time I forget the name of the tribes that you lived around the Uinta Basin, but it starts with an.

[Marcus Parks]

I do know that they did have a war with Mormons that was quite.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Blood was really brutal. Yeah but they good for them. They wouldn't go into this area of this canyon.

[Marcus Parks]

They actually won.

[Henry Zebrowski]

They would not go into this canyon because they legitimately thought it was creepy. And a part of what they did was they called the trail of the Skinwalker said went through this area. Now skinwalkers are shamans, magical people that instead of taking their magical responsibility to their community and using it responsibly and a positive way, they normally what they do is the final taboo, which is what Armin Meiva says we talk about them all the time. The final taboo, which is cannibalism and what they do is they do some form of evil cannibalistic ritual where they give up their own humanity in order to be able to change form into various animals to do nefarious shit. Essentially, it's to kill or to steal and then not be recognized. It's to leave. But it comes with a host of other negative associations and bad juju powers.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

[Ed Larson]

So they turn into like dire wolves and stuff like that.

[Henry Zebrowski]

And oversized wolves is a thing that does come up quite a bit at Skinwalker Ranch.

[Ed Larson]

Yeah.

[Marcus Parks]

It's a Ute Indian tribe.

[Henry Zebrowski]

The Ute.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, that's. Yeah, that was their. That's their name.

[Ed Larson]

The Two Utes.

[Henry Zebrowski]

The Two Utes. But it came from a thing. But this has now been researched up and down. It is called the most researched 500 acre plot of land in the world. They've had several different gigantic paranormal slash not paranormal studies done in the area to kind of see where all of these. These various stories come from. And if they are true or not.

[Ed Larson]

When will they stop?

[Henry Zebrowski]

They won't. Because they are making too much money.

[Ed Larson]

Yeah.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah. And I think there's still so much to be learned out there. Like, I really feel like with Skinwalker Ranch, like we went through it on our episode, like, how many strange events happened there? Like there was a. Like a. What was it? Bingo. The everything dog.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah. There was a weird ass dog that did change into several different shapes. It was owned by the Sherman family.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

And they saw UFOs very similar to. Nope. Like there was a lot of stuff in. Nope. That was straight imagery that was taken from Skinwalker Ranch that I thought was fucking awesome.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I thought it was gonna go more into Skinwalker territory, but it didn't. But I still love. Nope. Yeah.

[Marcus Parks]

Nope's incredible.

[Henry Zebrowski]

But the idea of like clouds that stay still in the sky.

[Ed Larson]

Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

One thing that's also really weird about Skinwalker Ranch is portals saying things that are opening up in the sky. They say that they literally saw like buttholes gape in the sky and then ships would come in and out of the buttholes. There was also giant wolves, dire wolves, poltergeist activity. Poltergeist activity.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah. It was like there would be cows that would suddenly, like basically teleportation where cows would suddenly be crammed into a trailer and nobody would know.

[Ed Larson]

Like, now that's how they got mutilated.

[Henry Zebrowski]

That was super fucking weird. And there's been multiple cattle mutilations. It's also one of the top phenomena on Skinwalker Ranch.

[Marcus Parks]

And there's been cattle mutilations described in Skinwalker Ranch going back as far as.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yes.

[Ed Larson]

Now what's the CTV situation on Skinwalker Ranch?

[Marcus Parks]

Constant.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Constant. It is, it is filmed all over the place. But one of also the weird phenomena is the thing cuts the cords to the cameras. They find cords missing, pulled out of the back of cameras. Stuff that's like suspicious. Like truly, truly suspicious. And I listened to George Knapp and Colm Kelleher recently that they wrote the original book on this subject called Hunt for the Skinwalker Ranch. Now this is Hunt for the Skinwalker, which has been around now for a minute. It was in 2005 and they just.

[Ed Larson]

Watched that doc and it's.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I, I love that. You know, I love them. And so the Sherman family, they were so freaked out by this that they could, didn't want to be there anymore. And they saw a lot of up. Like one thing was that like a giant wolf approached the father that was like approached Terry Sherman and he shot at it. And it didn't die, it ran away and a lot of other weird stuff. And so they finally got sick of it, so they sold it to the man who runs the extended stay universe instead of the extended, I would say the extended universe of the extended stay hotels. It's Robert Bigelow. He's trying to create space hotels. Okay. That's his main thing. He's a huge, huge.

[Ed Larson]

Well, if there's portals to space, it's a great place to start.

[Marcus Parks]

He owns a lot of rental property.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yes, yes. And he is a weird slash Republican donor, but also a very, very curious man who spent a lot of his millions of his billions researching this phenomena. So he bought the ranch and then he put this group on it called nids. That was a thing that he put together.

[Ed Larson]

And what does stand for again?

[Henry Zebrowski]

The National Institute for Discovery Science. And they, they did a very, very serious research program there for. I want to say it was something like 20 years they were there. And Robert Bigelow for forever jealously held the data that he had control of all of these years.

[Marcus Parks]

He's that a little bit here and there.

[Ed Larson]

Yeah.

[Marcus Parks]

Like to keep the, the interest in.

[Henry Zebrowski]

The project going well also because he's, he gave money. But also Senator Harry Reid also helped get a lot of government money applied to this area as well. Eventually United States government arrived and said, so what are we getting out of this? And they're all like, oh, the phenomena is very interesting. And they're like we're done here. And so they cut them off.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah. Because I mean they, as you said earlier, like they kind of created like an X Files underneath everyone's noses, but just relegated to 1500 square, 500 acre ranch in Utah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yes.

[Ed Larson]

They gave them $22 million. Correct.

[Henry Zebrowski]

They did have $22 million to work on the project.

[Ed Larson]

And they found nothing?

[Henry Zebrowski]

Well, we don't know.

[Marcus Parks]

Inclusive.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Nothing.

[Ed Larson]

Inclusive.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Well, nothing that we necessarily know about. You have the witness testimony which is. This is from the original research.

[Ed Larson]

There's lots of witness testimony.

[Henry Zebrowski]

There's a lot. Most of the evidence and a lot of what they discovered, which I do think is interesting. Part of what came out with one of the weird, fun, shady things that came out after the fact that a lot of the guys that were hired security, they essentially were used as barometers for the effects of the ranch, whether they knew it or not.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

So a lot of the times it found out that the call was coming from inside the house is that they measurements that they were using were coming from the humans that were there in their reactions to the phenomenon.

[Ed Larson]

Well, who else is going to know?

[Henry Zebrowski]

Well, that's.

[Ed Larson]

We asked to be the people that.

[Marcus Parks]

Are there, but you have to tell them, hey, that's why you're here. And they weren't telling these guys, hey, this is why you're here. I mean it's the same type of shit that the government has been doing for years upon years where you know, like the time they dumped a whole bunch of like fake poison to the water supply or they did what was the mist in San Francisco, see how.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Far a aerial aerosol eyes, whatever the term is, basically virus. How a biological agent could possibly move along a coastline. It just sprayed us all just willy nilly with essentially a quote unquote harmless bacteria to see what it would do.

[Ed Larson]

Zygot16 yeah, yeah.

[Marcus Parks]

Something like it was basically to see if an aerosolized anthrax attack would work and they found out that it did. But they also killed two people doing it.

[Henry Zebrowski]

They had a bad reaction to the.

[Marcus Parks]

Test, but yeah, this type of stuff happens quite often. They also did in Edgewood, which we're going to be doing an update about Edgewood.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, I'm excited for Edgewood.

[Ed Larson]

Now I'm not as skeptical because I after talk we talked to George Knapp and Jeremy Corbell.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Right.

[Ed Larson]

And I'm not as skeptical as much, but I just don't get it. I don't feel like there's that much actual evidence.

[Henry Zebrowski]

What's because it's more examining how difficult it is to know how to capture the evidence.

[Marcus Parks]

I mean. Yeah, that might actually be a good way of putting it is that it's a study on how to study this stuff. You know, like it's an experiment on how to experiment because they're trying to figure. Because that's one of the things that paranormal activity or paranormal research has really struggled with over the years is what are the. What. How do we quantify this stuff? How do we. How do we measure this?

[Henry Zebrowski]

Because guess what? You can't get unless you can quantify the stuff. Government funding for your research programs.

[Ed Larson]

Yeah.

[Marcus Parks]

Nor can you get any academic institution to take you seriously unless you have some sort of quantifier, if you have some way of classifying. And I think Skinwalker Ranch is. That's a big part of what they're trying to do.

[Ed Larson]

I feel like this $22 million, in my opinion was just like, shut up money. You know, like this is not real money to invest in a fucking. Like a true investigation.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Because the other half even make like.

[Ed Larson]

A romantic comedy for 22 million.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Scale. Well, it's because Robert Bigelow was.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

So one half was coming from the government and the rest was coming from the never ending cash flow of Robert Bigelow until he finally offloaded the ranch. And when he offloaded the ranch was kind of when we stopped covering, it was 2016. And then the book had come out. We had did Hunt for the Skinwalker. And at that point we had covered. When we did our episodes, we talked about all the various stories that happened on the ranch and we talked about how we knew that because it came from Hunt for the Skinwalker. And which I do find one of my favorite things now after one thing I learned was that George Knapp originally was not super pleased that we had done a show using his book. Because he was like he had heard these group of jokers were talking about his. His fucking. That's his baby. That was one of his babies.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

[Ed Larson]

Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Like George Knapp is truly one of the most. In the end, I think will be named one of the most important men in ufology because of his singular dedication to the proper investigation of these. Bringing an air of legitimacy to the investigations of all of this type of.

[Ed Larson]

And not backing down and ever, you know, because he knows that it like makes him look crazy and he doesn't give a shit.

[Henry Zebrowski]

But guess what? He's hardcore. And he's still won awards. He still does crime reporting. He still does all his other Investigative journalism.

[Ed Larson]

I feel like you have to. To make yourself legitimate enough to get funding for this.

[Henry Zebrowski]

He came after. He went after mobsters. He did stuff on the Las Vegas mayor that went to jail. Like, he's done a lot of shit. Like, I love George N. Nap unironically. And so when I found out that he was angry, we're all like, oh, no.

[Marcus Parks]

Oh, God, what are we gonna do? Until he listened.

[Henry Zebrowski]

And then he listened and he said, oh, you guys did some of the work. We're like, we're trying, Mr. Nap.

[Ed Larson]

We're trying.

[Marcus Parks]

He said that we went a different way with it.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, we got. We added stuff.

[Marcus Parks]

He appreciated it. And so you guys got to talk to him at a contact in the desert and, you know, got to have a great conversation with him.

[Ed Larson]

He was very cool.

[Henry Zebrowski]

But the thing about him is that the more I talk, I hear him talk, the more I at least buy that what he brought to the table was extremely honest. And he believes. Because, like, there's a lot of talk about Robert Bigalow trashing the records of what happened during the NIDS investigation of the hunt for the skinwalker during that hunt for the skinwalker time period. And George Knapp, like many times has said, we book writing. It is. That is the record. That is what Bigelow had. What Bigelow probably has that none of us have seen is probably a couple of choice pictures, which is, again, what we've learned is these guys either don't have them or they. They use that as a cudgel against many people to be like, you can't get it. But the word is, wouldn't that get you funding? I don't know. I actually don't know anymore. Because if he goes out, because this is what. Now, this is an interesting phenomena that we're at now in the post. Post informational world, is that if. Let's say you have a great picture of a UFO and you. You do have one, and you are this guy Robert Bigelow. Vaguely shady, but, you know, technically a hotelier.

[Marcus Parks]

Could be anything. If you have a. You might have a picture of Bonko the Everything dog. You might have a picture of a massive wolf. You might have a picture, something that will make the world stand up and say, whoa.

[Henry Zebrowski]

So one of the worst things that you could do is release that, have everyone come out and be like, oh, my God, have it. Earth chatter. Right? Like, let's have it. Oh, my God, this crazy picture. And then let's say somebody does a hit job on it. Like, I just like, just as a total nightmare scenario, someone does a hit job on the photo, does everything possible to try to show that it's debunked. Now you've given this guy a bunch of money on his. The, the, the. The back of this incredible release of information. The information is now debunked. You now got to get the money back from this asshole. You got to do. Wants to do it. No one wants to finally put that last piece out, because what if then my last piece, everybody doesn't even believe it.

[Ed Larson]

Of course that's gonna happen.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yes.

[Marcus Parks]

And it's not only that, but by saying, I have this photo, I have this last piece, people will still pay attention to you.

[Henry Zebrowski]

People. Oh, yeah.

[Marcus Parks]

People will still give you, you know, people will still invite you to things. People will still do interviews with you. But if you give everything that you got, then it's like, okay, well, we got everything we got from that guy. Don't have to talk to him anymore.

[Henry Zebrowski]

But when we recovered Skinwalker Ranch, like, at the time, too, it was still very mysterious, and it was a mysterious place and a lot of stuff.

[Marcus Parks]

The TV show had not happened yet. No, it had not become a part of, like, you know, the zeitgeist, as it sort of is now, where basically everyone knows what Skinwalker Ranch is now. We covered it. It was still very under the radar, mysterious.

[Ed Larson]

Can we go?

[Henry Zebrowski]

No, I don't want to go.

[Ed Larson]

I know you're not wanting to go, but, like, are we allowed to go?

[Henry Zebrowski]

I think that you can take tours, but you have to know somebody.

[Ed Larson]

I.

[Marcus Parks]

Invitation. Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yes, you have to know somebody. I. I was. I got. I got some flirts going on.

[Ed Larson]

Oh, nice.

[Henry Zebrowski]

A couple of old men.

[Ed Larson]

Okay.

[Henry Zebrowski]

That's my favorite. Because I can give them something they don't got no more.

[Ed Larson]

Certainly not a bunch of attractive young ladies.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, it's never weird, right? It's never a girl named Valen. Tina, who's also an Instagram model. Like, it's never her. It's always blurk, you know, like, it's always some kind of like, Like, oh, great, sometimes you're scary.

[Ed Larson]

Robbie Williams.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Love Robbie Williams.

[Marcus Parks]

But no, I don't want to go to Skinwalker Ranch. And the reason why I don't want to go to Skinwalker Ranch is because of something that we discovered after covering the ranch on the main feed is the hitchhiker effect. I am terrified of this.

[Ed Larson]

Hitchhiking, ghosts.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Hitchhiking goes like your favorite. Yeah, it's not like that.

[Ed Larson]

It seems like it.

[Henry Zebrowski]

No, no. Hitchhiking ghosts give you autoimmune diseases unless you them without a condom. I don't know. I don't know. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Whether you're just starting out or scaling your business, Squarespace is the all in one website platform designed to help your business stand out and succeed online. Squarespace gives you everything you need to offer services and get paid all in one place, from consultations to events and experiences. Showcase your offerings with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. The best part about it is it can help you design a funnel in which you can very quickly record commercials so that you can get it done while you were desperately trying to get on break. That's the best part about Squarespace. It can really shorten up the time you spend doing things. You got to get in there. You got to get in there. Use Squarespace. Man, is it fast. It is absolutely incredible. You're going to love your experience at Squarespace. Head to squarespace.com left for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use offer code left to save 10 off your first purchase of a website or domain.

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[Henry Zebrowski]

This is an ad by BetterHelp. A new year is a new opportunity to feel lighter and you don't have to become a new person to do it. Signing up for therapy with BetterHelp can shine a light on what's been weighing you down and illuminate possibilities for the year ahead. BetterHelp handles the initial therapist matching work for you. You don't have to do the hard work like I did trolling the streets of skid row looking for a therapist. Just take a short questionnaire to share your needs and preferences. And thanks to BetterHelp's industry leading match fulfillment rate, they usually get your match right the first time. You know it. You know how I know my therapist, my match? By looking him dead in the eyes. I look him dead in the eyes and I see if he can handle it right as we both feel the bolus of excrement inside of me.

[Ed Larson]

Right.

[Henry Zebrowski]

But I hope that BetterHelp can provide you an unbiased perspective on your life so you can head into the new year taking only what truly serves you. You can't step into a lighter version of yourself without leaving behind what's been weighing you down. Therapy can help you clear space. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] LastPod that's betterhelp.com LastPod all right, we covered it back in the day. We'll kind of go a little bit more about what has expanded since then. Since then, George Knapp wrote a book with two guys, two a sexy guys named James McCaskey and Colm Kelleher. Now, James McCaskey is a former intelligence officer, defense guy that was so spooked by what happened to him after he went to Skinwalker Ranch that he decided it was enough for him to tell these guys what he knew. Because he was like. He basically was like, I want to go see it. And he went with Colton Kelleher and George Knapp and scared the living fuck out of him. And then it weirdly also semi ruined his life after the fact. And so they wrote Skinwalkers at the Pentagon. And I'm just going to tell you now, you should go buy it and read it. And it is not like it's not Game of Thrones.

[Marcus Parks]

Sure.

[Henry Zebrowski]

You know, but it is a really interesting investigation into how to talk to these guys about something none of them want to talk to. And one of the main components that came out was really breaking down what the New York Times got wrong in December 2017 when it named a tip. It named a couple of these inner groups and they were wrong.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, the big. The 2017 article is when it was the first time in modern history that a major publication has given UFOs or UAPs, as it were, the time of day.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yes, but they were incorrect without their following the money of where the actual. Because Lou Elizondo sort of put himself he. Lou Elizondo was the man that released helped leak this UFO material to the New York Times in December of 2017. He worked for a thing called a tip, which was this inner group within the. I believe it's the Aryan Aerial Aerial Nautical.

[Ed Larson]

Not Ariel.

[Henry Zebrowski]

No, not anymore. A TIP is part of the Pentagon.

[Marcus Parks]

At the very least. Right.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program. Now, what they were supposed to do was look at things in the sky, figure out whether or not they were weirdly anomalous, figure out whether or not they were trying to hurt us and whether or not we could do whatever that they were doing and turn it into weaponry for us. Now, Lou Elizondo came out and said, oh, I'm the leader of this group. We now kind of know that it's probably not the case. He's probably was a guy somewhere within it who, man. But he has now done since a lot of good work trying to get this stuff out that we can see so that we can see some of it. Because the main contention is, all right, we don't know what it is. The government doesn't know what it is, but it's not hurting us yet. And that's what they're really afraid of. But still, like, why can't we know about it? Turns out it's actually a lot more complicated than that. So a tip with this book then talks about how a tip was moved into a thing called all SAP, which is. You like this? Do you like this, Marcus? This is like being married to me. This is it. This is our life.

[Marcus Parks]

Hey, man, I'm get. I gave this one over to. Well, I didn't actually give this one over to you.

[Henry Zebrowski]

You know, sort of took it. I have just sort of kidnapped it. Yeah.

[Marcus Parks]

Because I tried taking, like, I, I.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I tried it back. Do you want this back?

[Marcus Parks]

No, please, please continue.

[Henry Zebrowski]

So the Advanced Aerospace Weapons System Applications Program. No, now we're locked in. Now we're locked in.

[Marcus Parks]

I'm, I'm letting you finish this thought.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yes, yes, absolutely.

[Ed Larson]

And.

[Henry Zebrowski]

But what we're really seeing is. So I'm just kind of. The main points of the book, though. The Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Business Program is the next version of this. That is actually what got the $22 million. That is the thing that was all like. And that was one thing that this, the, the investigative book pro proved was like. It followed the money and it kind of untangled a bunch of stuff that the New York Times accidentally tangled up for a lot of people. Because immediately people went looking for a tip. They couldn't find it. They found a thing called OS app. They thought that, like, oh, this is all disinformation. But they showed these are the technically very tedious differences.

[Ed Larson]

Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Now, between these organizations.

[Ed Larson]

Can I.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Who is Boss Bass Bigelow Aerospace Studies. That's Robert Bigelow's Personal Aerospace Technology.

[Ed Larson]

Okay. Okay.

[Henry Zebrowski]

That's his guy. Right. So the other thing that the new book comes out is explains this concept of the hitchhiker phenomena and really why truly at the core, that of our US Government's hesitancy to research any of this stuff. And it's because of the religious angle and because of this hitchhiker effect.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, well, basically what the hitchhiker effect is is that most people who go to Skinwalker Ranch and in some cases, like some pools of questioning, every single person that they questioned after they went to Skinwalker Ranch brought something home with them. And what that something is, no one really knows. All they know is that it is paranormal activity that manifests itself in many different ways. Some people, it manifests itself in disembodied voices. Some people, it manifests as moving objects, like poltergeist activity. Other people, they see blue orbs that will just suddenly appear in their house. And one person had a blue orb. He said it moved through him. And very soon after, he developed a very aggressive form of cancer and died. But did he die? I'm not sure if he died, but I do know the guy who the blue orb was. No, he did not die, but he got. He got a very aggressive form of cancer. And some people even see shadow monsters. Not monsters, but, you know, shadow people.

[Henry Zebrowski]

The most dangerous form of ghosts. Did you know that?

[Marcus Parks]

That's what I hear.

[Henry Zebrowski]

According to Ed Warren, the shadow monster, it's the most dangerous form of ghost.

[Marcus Parks]

And in fact, the biggest thing, though, is that these, you know, hitchhikers and, you know, these people that, you know, this phenomenon that makes people sick. Robert Bigelow, it's speculated that the reason why he sold Skinwalker Ranch is because he believed that Skinwalker Ranch, one of these hitchhikers, he believes it killed his wife because she died of a very aggressive form of leukemia very quickly.

[Ed Larson]

Did she die on the ranch?

[Marcus Parks]

No.

[Ed Larson]

But has anyone died on the ranch?

[Henry Zebrowski]

We don't know.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, yeah, actually, it's a better answer is we don't know.

[Ed Larson]

Okay.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, we have no idea.

[Ed Larson]

Because it was an Indian burial ground.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Well, not yet.

[Marcus Parks]

I mean, the whole Indian burial ground thing is, if I may say, a bit of a racist idea that was put forth. Like, that's when we'll talk about it, you know, a little bit when we do our Amityville update. But the whole idea of the Indian burial ground, that was sort of created around the time of Amityville, like, out of some other, like, piece of media that they were trying to afterwards because.

[Henry Zebrowski]

They had mounds in Amityville. That's the reason why they try to attach it to the Native American burial grounds. And even that. It's fine.

[Marcus Parks]

It's even dumber than that. But, like, the. The Shitticook tribe came out and said, like, we don't do that. No. He said, like, why would our spirits cut like he's like, why would our spirits come back and haunt you? Our spirit. We don't believe in that sort of thing. That's not. That's not what we're about. You know, just to say, like, you know, and then, you know, buried on an Indian burial ground became just kind of a term. Like, it became a joke.

[Ed Larson]

Why would it is a racist thought to think that their graveyards are more haunted?

[Henry Zebrowski]

Extra scary. Yeah, they're old school.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, that goes back. Like they're more evil. It goes back to the old, like, whole, like, savage idea of like the. They're more evil than we are. They're more savage than we are. Therefore, like, we can. You know, they're going. Their ghosts are going to be meaner. Yeah, but of course, you know, poltergeist those ghosts.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, but you move the headstones.

[Marcus Parks]

Those are just plain old white folk.

[Henry Zebrowski]

We do that all the time. It happens way more than you think it does.

[Ed Larson]

I got no problem with it. Cemeteries are a waste of space.

[Henry Zebrowski]

We all. We talked about this. I believe that. But truly the. The. It's interesting because what also the skinwalkers at the Pentagon really elucidates is kind of what we're coming up against. One thing that was interesting that I learned was that there was a period of time where Robert Bigelow's bass. Whatever the offices were, whatever you'd call that they were supposedly. And you can take this with a fucking mountain of salt, they were told at some point during their contract, prepare for a shipment of this, what they called exotic materials. So there's a period of time where apparently they were preparing to move something that they had inside of some hangar somewhere that they didn't know what it was. And they were about to give it to Robert Bigelow for him to research. And then it just never happened. And then it seems. And I. Again, I'm. All of this is on the. To me, the. The believability of George Knapp, which is he went looking and the more and more he would bounce against what seems to be the major, major, big, big secret, which is that they got something and we don't know who's in charge of the thing. It legitimately might be like a construction company. It legitimately might be something that's outside of the government, like, thing all together. That there is. There is somebody that is holding on to something they found. This is according to them. That's one. That's the one big secret. And the second big, big, big secret, which is I. Which was pointed towards. I don't know if I should even say this. Secret information sources. I can't reveal.

[Ed Larson]

This is what they all say.

[Marcus Parks]

I think you're just enjoying finally being able to do this now.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I can say it.

[Marcus Parks]

No, you can do it.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I got some inside information as well.

[Ed Larson]

Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Because I know people don't reveal your sources.

[Ed Larson]

But what is it?

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Dr. Theodore Seuss. That's your source. That's my source. Green eggs. Ham is bad. You know why? Because they are fucking spoiled.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Repulsing him. But was it.

[Ed Larson]

Was it a blue fish that did this or is it a two fish?

[Henry Zebrowski]

No.

[Marcus Parks]

Actually, it's kind of racist to call it a two fish.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah. You piece of. How dare you. But I. It is the fact that they. Whatever it is, is making us very sick. And that what the. People having contact with any form of the quote unquote phenomena is making people get something. Not unlike Long Covid getting something. Not some kind of autoimmune disease that is really hurting people. And they don't know what the hell it is because it's not radiation poisoning. It's something else.

[Ed Larson]

But nothing's happened to Nap. He's been there a bunch of times.

[Henry Zebrowski]

But Knapp says that he brought back shit to his own house. And he says that's the reason why he'll never go back. Not go back.

[Ed Larson]

Oh, really?

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yes.

[Ed Larson]

He's done.

[Henry Zebrowski]

He's done. He says he's done because he said the last time he came back, shit started moving around his house. And then his wife started seeing things and he said, I gotta stop going.

[Ed Larson]

But his house is all spooky.

[Henry Zebrowski]

He's not. He's the opposite. He says to me. According to what?

[Marcus Parks]

He's just an investigator.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah. He's like, this is not his life. He said. He tried to explain that to me. He's just been like, I'd rather be anywhere else. Like, essentially, like, basically. He would much rather. He much rather be hanging out with, like, LeBron James. He should have been a sports reporter. Just for his own life. Just for his own life. Yeah. But he just likes a long cigar and a tall glass of scotch.

[Ed Larson]

Yeah. And the Rat Pack.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yep. He does.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, I mean, I can see his point because, you know, Robert Bigelow in a. An interview that he gave to George knapp in like, 2021, like Robert Bigelow says, and a couple of people have confirmed this, like, the. The shit that people bring back from Skinwalker Ranch, it's again, sort of like long Covid. There's no set expiration date on it. It's not like you come back, you experience stuff for a week and then it's done. Some people have been experiencing things for years, years upon years that it just doesn't stop. And as far as they know, it's going to keep happening for the rest of their lives. It's just never going to stop for them.

[Ed Larson]

If it's never going to stop, then why not keep going back to try to figure out what the fuck it is to try and stop it?

[Marcus Parks]

You get higher bills.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah dude, get more dude. And then you go back. Nothing going back is is stopping it. And like that's a part of the main issue with all of the research is that we really haven't gotten anywhere. Which tech technically brings us to the secret of Skinwalker Ranch. Sling is changing the way live TV works by putting viewers in charge of their entertainment. Pay only for the months when TV is actually needed and skip the ones when it's not. For short term needs, Sling passes provide live TV access without commitment. A day pass for 4.99 offers 24 access. A week pass, blah blah bl who cares? On Sling is the only place that you can watch your pretty faces going to hell on an app. It's the only place where you can do it. And so therefore it has become my favorite app. So you go to wherever the sling is, find Sling and you can go to see your pretty faces going to hell on it. And that's all that matters. We're show people your pretty faces going to hell. Okay? So go get Sling. Great app. How I've organized my channel lineup is I put your pretty faces going to hell five times on it. So go check it out, choose and customize your channel, line up or pause and watch for free. Sling lets you do that. Visit sling.com to learn more.

[Marcus Parks]

Special agent will trend ABC Tuesdays.

[Henry Zebrowski]

You run from the dark.

[Marcus Parks]

That's why it chases you.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Get out of my house.

[Marcus Parks]

The hit series Will Tread is back. Well this is a manhunt, not a murder that needs to be solved. And the truth?

[Henry Zebrowski]

This man killed my mother and left me to die.

[Marcus Parks]

He's out.

[Ad Voice 4]

I think if we don't catch this guy then he's gonna go off the.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Deep end of control. They won't even see you coming.

[Marcus Parks]

I have to end this will tread. Tuesdays 8, 7 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu.

[Babs]

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[Marcus Parks]

The craziest thing about that, you say, why don't people go back and try to figure it out? Is that a lot of these people that come back with something when they go to Skinwalker Ranch, when they've gone to Skinwalker Ranch, they experience nothing.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, nothing.

[Marcus Parks]

They experienced not a single fucking thing. They're like, I don't know what the big deal is. It's just, you know, there's just some place in Utah and it's only after they go home that they experience very real phenomenon.

[Ed Larson]

That was my problem with all the docs that I watched is like, it's just a bunch of people walking around a field.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah. Well, again, as you're seeing more and more. More with the paranormal world, it's subtle and that what. What you're seeing is an actual paranormal investigation not led by somebody like the Warrens. Even though technically it is being sold, it's being sold to us as a mysterious thing. But it sounds like whatever was happening at Skinwalker Ranch, like the way that George Knapp described it is that by the end of the NIDS run in, by 2016, activity had all but stopped. Like by the time they had gotten to the end of their scientific, like whatever that round was, they like no one was seeing jack shit ever. Nothing was happening. Nothing. Nothing fun. Nothing weird. And then what happened was that they gave it a break. Which is kind of what we talked about on side stories. Remember we talked about how the talk about the UK is running out of ghosts.

[Marcus Parks]

Yes.

[Henry Zebrowski]

And they were saying this concept which is interesting that they're. That ghost hunters are talking about less famous ghosts are not showing up anymore.

[Marcus Parks]

Oh, like the ones that bore the rectory.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah. That they're going in a partially finally.

[Ed Larson]

Going to heaven or hell or whatever.

[Marcus Parks]

They finally got destroyed by all the fucking electricity in here.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah. Something happened or battery ran out. And it does sound like what happened is that people Skinwalker Ranch got like burn out. Yeah. On being explored and it did not want to be fucking investigated anymore. And it's. Everything stopped. But then the next guy bought the Skinwalker Ranch. Like I said.

[Ed Larson]

Know who that is?

[Henry Zebrowski]

We do now.

[Ed Larson]

Okay.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, we know it. Brandon Fugal.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yes.

[Marcus Parks]

Is his Name, real estate, cartoon. Speaks in movie references.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, he is such a pain in the ass.

[Ed Larson]

Is he gonna build like a hotel there?

[Marcus Parks]

No, I mean, he's there for the paranormal.

[Henry Zebrowski]

He really is.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, he really is there for the paranormal. Like he's. And I think it's. I think he. It seems like he likes it because, I mean, this man wants his life to be a movie.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah.

[Marcus Parks]

I mean, he owns a fucking, you know, endoskeleton from Terminator 2. Like he owns like the fucking T800. Like he owns the fucking glasses from Harry Potter.

[Henry Zebrowski]

He specifically drives the Lamborghini that the. That Bruce Wayne drives in the dark Night begins. That was at that one that he pulls into the restaurant with the models. Yeah, he bought that Lamborghini the screen used one.

[Ed Larson]

He doesn't drive it on the dirt roads out in Skinwalker, does he?

[Henry Zebrowski]

I mean, I think seems irresponsible. That's his property, bro. You wouldn't do donuts on Skinwalker Ranch in Batman's Lambo. That's incredible. That's an afternoon, dude.

[Ed Larson]

So has anything happened to this guy?

[Marcus Parks]

Not that we know of.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Well, he said that. No. He's a straight. He's a straight experiencer.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, I mean. Well, anything bad happening, I guess what I would say, yes, he did see a ufo.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yes, he did.

[Marcus Parks]

He saw like a full silver disc in broad daylight.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, he's an experiencer. And it changed his mind because for a while he had just bought it to have it.

[Marcus Parks]

It.

[Henry Zebrowski]

So when he found out it was for sale, he flipped out because he's a pop culture whore and he really wanted to get his. Any his hands on something that he could fucking tell whole the world. He has, look how cool I am. Look what I have.

[Ed Larson]

Just out of sheer curiosity, how much was it?

[Henry Zebrowski]

I think it was four million. Four or six million?

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, it was a lot. But he. He already owned like a ton of property in Utah. He was like sort of a. He was a real estate magnate in. In Utah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah.

[Marcus Parks]

No name.

[Ed Larson]

I know this sounds irresponsible and I'm probably answering my own question as I. But why not make it into like a theme park, like I think? And like, that's how we're really gonna find out. You know, the thing is packing it with people and seeing if they all go home with cancer, but I feel.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Like that's a hard way to start. I feel like everyone's gonna be angry about getting ghost cancer because they wouldn't want to roller coaster.

[Ed Larson]

No, they sign a waiver. I could get ghost cancer.

[Henry Zebrowski]

He's not wrong.

[Marcus Parks]

Actually. Everyone who. Who goes on Skinwalker Ranch does have to sign a waiver saying I might get ghost cancer. They do. Every single person who enters the property has to sign a waiver saying, like, I understand that I may suffer adverse effects from visiting this place. I do not hold the owners or anyone who goes with me responsible for anything that may happen to me on or off the ranch afterwards. Yeah, man, they're already signing the fucking waivers.

[Ed Larson]

So I don't think we're going to get real statistics until we start putting real numbers in there.

[Marcus Parks]

That's what. But that's what they tried to do with the government. They. They did have a fair amount of people in there. And this. With this TV show, there's people in and out of there all the time.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, there are people in and out all the time now. And so for a while, there was just government guys watching the outside exterior, and it was empty. And they would talk about that. There was a. People would get kicked in and out. And eventually, when. When Fugal bought it, he's like. He was just kind of had it for a while. And it sounded like for a while at first, just. He wasn't expecting to do anything with it. And he wanted his name to be secret. He did not want to be identified with the property because he was like. He didn't want to get harassed. He didn't want to think. If people ask him about it all the time, you know, he's like, you know, I give you my name, you tell your friends, they tell your other friends.

[Ed Larson]

Because you don't want to talk about it.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Exactly.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

So. But according to him.

[Marcus Parks]

But he was. Also. This whole time, he was also doing the monitoring. You know, he was. He wanted to figure out, like, he kind of took the mantle from Bigelow as far as the investigation goes, so. He did not. He didn't.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Even though he's just a real estate guy who likes movies.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah. Yeah. He didn't buy it just to have it. He was continuing. He carried the. The torch.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, he wanted it. He wanted this responsibility. But then six months into the ownership, he said that he was in the command center, which was the old homestead for those guys who are like, we're not going to be explaining every single.

[Ed Larson]

Rundown barn in the middle of the place.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Thank you. He was seeing some. There were some people there, quote, unquote. He's, according to him, visiting dignitaries, which is probably dead. Nugent, Robbie Williams. Again. Yeah, again, always. I'm gonna say Grimes.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah. Grimes.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I can see Grimes hanging out there. Yeah, Fred Durst, my boy. We can say this now. Probably. He was a contact in the desert. We. We couldn't find him.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, man.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, I saw him, though.

[Ed Larson]

We did see him once.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, he looks good.

[Ed Larson]

He looked great.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I like old man Fred Durst. It's awesome.

[Marcus Parks]

She's doing real well with it.

[Henry Zebrowski]

He really is. No, but then he said that according to Fugal, that he was at the.

[Marcus Parks]

Old homestead or he was on his way. Homestead?

[Ed Larson]

Yes.

[Henry Zebrowski]

And he said first he looked in his line of sight. He saw an object in the sky. It was a full disc, 40 to 50ft long. It hovered in broad daylight. And then he said that it just blinked away. Disappeared in a second. And he said that it changed his whole life. And by then, the History Channel came a call.

[Marcus Parks]

By 2018, his ranch manager started getting calls from History Channel producers. They wanted to collaborate on a TV show. Fugal reluctantly agreed. Reluctantly, so long as they signed the NDA. And during their launch, one of the producers asked if he was a believer. He said, I'm not a believer. I'm an experiencer.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, dude.

[Marcus Parks]

And he said he had three conditions. Nothing could be faked. They had to use his team, his people. They couldn't. History Channel couldn't bring in their own people.

[Ed Larson]

Like what? His. Like his cameraman and his researchers?

[Marcus Parks]

No, his researchers.

[Ed Larson]

Oh.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I got a grip. You gotta see my guy Joey, using another grip of my grip. He's the only deaf sound man in the business.

[Marcus Parks]

What?

[Henry Zebrowski]

He's great. He's a funny guy. I said, you hired what?

[Marcus Parks]

No, his researchers, his doctor, you know, his PhD guys, his paranormal guys. And he also had the condition that they not reveal his identity. But the History Channel people smartly said, like, yeah, okay, first two points. Great. We won't fake anything. We'll use your. I'm sure they went and interviewed the dudes and, like, okay, these guys are. They may not be, you know, the Pawn Stars, but they're entertaining enough. What do you.

[Babs]

What?

[Henry Zebrowski]

How dare you insult dragon.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, I mean, they're great, but, you know, do they have a chumlee? No, they don't have a bumbling.

[Henry Zebrowski]

No, they don't have a chum.

[Marcus Parks]

Do they have an old man?

[Henry Zebrowski]

No. No. No is by far a better reality show. All right, I understand there's more paranormal activity that happens at Pawn Stars and has happened in all of Search for Skinwalker Ranch. But still, I. I don't begrudge it.

[Marcus Parks]

No, I don't begrudge it either. But on the third point, they're like, no, you gotta be a character. We have to know who owns this place if you want to take this. But if you want to take this.

[Henry Zebrowski]

If you want to be on tv, you gotta be on the tv.

[Ed Larson]

Yeah.

[Marcus Parks]

If you want people to take this investigation seriously. Like, you can't just. We can't just have some unnamed guy owning the rats.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah.

[Ed Larson]

Because in the Corbell documentary, they shot him like he was Dr. Claw from Expector Gas. Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

It's kind of fun. I like that. I miss that. I wish that he did more of that. I wish he understood how much more fun that is. Like, if you walked around with a fucking, like, mask on, that's so much more fun.

[Ed Larson]

Yeah, it would be. He's just petting an alien.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yes.

[Marcus Parks]

But so secrets of Skinwalker Ranch. That it's. But basically this guy and all of his buddies. Or like, former colleagues, like, Dragon. Dragon Bryant. Dragon Arnold. Which Dragon doesn't like the name Dragon?

[Henry Zebrowski]

I will say, at first I did. I was laughing, but now I understand that it was a joke because he.

[Ed Larson]

Had, like, too much booze on his breath.

[Henry Zebrowski]

No, it's because there was a guy. So according to lore, before the they took over for the show, there was security officers often on the Skinwalker Ranch that were hired by Robert Bigelow. And there was one guy that was a fucking asshole that they called the Dragon that used to threaten people with, like, shooting them in the head and shit. And then eventually enough people asked this dude who was the fake head of security because it was Fugal's buddy, to come do it. And they kept asking him, is he the Dragon of old? And they just started ironically calling him Dragon. And then it stuck.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah. Well, they put a picture. Someone was like, yeah, here's Dragon. Dragon, you fucking dragon. You're dragging now. Fuck you, you're dragging.

[Henry Zebrowski]

You're Dragon.

[Marcus Parks]

I don't like being Dragon. You. You're Dragon.

[Ad Voice 1]

Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

He's angry that he's Dragon.

[Ed Larson]

Yeah.

[Marcus Parks]

And after Fugal brought the property, someone visited and met this guy and asked like, oh, so you're Dragon now You're dragging. He's like, no, I'm not. But they were like, fuck you, you're Dragon.

[Ed Larson]

Now, here's what I think. Barbecue restaurant. You call it the Mutilated Cow.

[Henry Zebrowski]

This is not man.

[Marcus Parks]

Dragon. Mutilated Cow.

[Ed Larson]

Yeah, yeah, it's a barbecue restaurant.

[Marcus Parks]

I mean, well, dragons mutilated cows. At the very least. Least Dry rub.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Well, it's. Honestly, Just call it cattle Mutilations. That's what I eat once a week now. I'm down. I'm down on the red meat.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah. But although Dragon, he does carry a 12 gauge shotgun with him everywhere he goes.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Everywhere he goes. Because you never know what's gonna happen.

[Ed Larson]

You're out in the middle of nowhere style.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, yeah. Then you get the ranch manager, Jim Morse. He was. Jim was like Fugal's like first big developer client, like way, way, way back in the day. And of course, like, you know, Jim just seemed like, okay, this is the right guy for the job.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yes.

[Marcus Parks]

You know, he's the only one of the cast to claim that he's seen an actual skinwalker on the ranch. Okay, then you got Eric Bard. He's the principal investigator. The normal guy.

[Henry Zebrowski]

He's fine. You know, I like that he's a scientist. Did you watch any of the show?

[Ed Larson]

I don't think I watched. There's so many shows. I don't think I watched the right one.

[Henry Zebrowski]

I find it so interesting.

[Ed Larson]

Well, there's a.

[Henry Zebrowski]

There are two now. There are two shows. I. But it is interesting.

[Ed Larson]

I watched the one that was on Netflix. That only has season two.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yes. That's all you need. You're fine.

[Marcus Parks]

I think you watched the wrong one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The doc is the best.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Doc's the best.

[Marcus Parks]

That's the best one to watch this show.

[Henry Zebrowski]

It's like they try. They really, really try.

[Marcus Parks]

They really do.

[Ed Larson]

I couldn't get far into that.

[Marcus Parks]

The Netflix show, they got a guy named Dr. Travis.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, Dr. Travis is the. Technically, he's the handsome skeptic.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

But he's now a believer.

[Marcus Parks]

He was in a show from 2011 to 2012 called Rocket City Rednecks.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah.

[Marcus Parks]

And that was about him, his father, his brother in law, his best friend, and his nephew setting off rockets.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, he's got a star power. He's got good hair.

[Ed Larson]

Blowing up moonshine distillers, basically.

[Henry Zebrowski]

He's got good hair. He looks good.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, they could tell the history of rocketry. Like the reason why we built this rocket. This goes Back to the V2. Oh, wait, we can't talk about the V2. Never. Never mind. They're not going to be really. They're not. Well, actually, but Speaking of the V2, his father did build satellites at Wiley Laboratories under Werner Von Braun.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Hey, hey. No one comes out clean.

[Marcus Parks]

So he probably did know quite a bit about the V2. But going back to skinwalkers at the Pentagon, Travis Taylor, he was the guy. Maybe we can wrap up on this. He also knew the Mysterious Axl Rod.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah.

[Ed Larson]

Axel Rod sings October Rain.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yay. No. How dare you. He's an important man. I'm truly one of my single favorite February snow. She's sick of listening to my uncle do these horrible GNR parodies. This is one of my single favorite images from the Skinwalker Ranch book. I love this. I love this idea. So according to George Knapp. Now, George Knapp, he does a good job of always being like, hey, I hear a lot of ridiculous things. I just report the shit. The first thing that him and Colton Kellen, her got into a lot of trouble for, this is true, when they were talking from skinwalkers at the Pentagon, is the dino beavers, beaver societies of dinosaurs. That, according to Nicole Kelleher, he saw. And so that was one thing he got a lot of shit for. But one of the other things that he got shit for was the. This story, which I love, which is he talked to a guy. He was a federal employee with Axel. A man by the name of Axel Rod.

[Marcus Parks]

Went by the name of Axel Rod. His name wasn't Axel Rod.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Now, according to her. So during the Bigalow era, they experienced phenomena inside of their home after they left, witnessed by his wife as well. She witnessed what could only be described as a wolf standing on its hind legs in their backyard, leaning against a tree with its paws cross across its.

[Ed Larson]

Chest, smoking a cigarette.

[Henry Zebrowski]

What are you doing?

[Marcus Parks]

Like, it's a 1950s greaser.

[Ed Larson]

How about some bones, dude?

[Henry Zebrowski]

What they talk about. But Axelrod is dropped by several different things. The Axelrod is a guy, but it's just a part of the mystery that we don't know what the fuck's happening.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, Dr. Travis said. He said he's made experiments with scientific instruments in Axelrod's house. And this is actually interesting, is that there have been simultaneous events within a microsecond of each other taking place in axl Rod's house, Dr. Travis's house, and a house on Skinwalker Ranch.

[Ed Larson]

Okay.

[Marcus Parks]

Many people whom Dr. Travis knows have had blue orbs and other things in their home. And a neighbor of Axl Rod, that was the guy who developed a very dangerous form of cancer right afterwards. A guy was just over at Axelrod's house. The blue orb flew through him, and all of a sudden, ah, fuck, I got cancer.

[Ed Larson]

It seems like it also attacks women.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Like.

[Ed Larson]

Like the wives back home.

[Marcus Parks]

It attacks everyone.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah. Just make sure that knows that you shouldn't be in love. If you like UFOs.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah. It attacks wives, it attacks children, it attacks anybody. That's in the house.

[Ad Voice 4]

Really?

[Ed Larson]

So what does Natalie say about you trying to go to Skinwalker Ranch?

[Henry Zebrowski]

She loves it. She loves it. Oh, yeah. She wants to go.

[Ed Larson]

She wants to go.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah, of course.

[Ed Larson]

Okay, cool. Oh, no.

[Henry Zebrowski]

We want to go.

[Ed Larson]

All right.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Oh, no. We ain't afraid of no UFOs. I ain't afraid no ghost cancer. Yeah, I'm getting in there. I'm going to wear a lead vest.

[Ed Larson]

I don't think that's going to help.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Why not?

[Ed Larson]

It's not.

[Henry Zebrowski]

We should go in. Lead vest, lead hat. Right. Go in. Protect ourselves against vibes.

[Marcus Parks]

I don't think it's going to work, man.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Could be magnets.

[Ed Larson]

Yeah, could be magnets.

[Marcus Parks]

No, no, no, I'm not.

[Henry Zebrowski]

They're saying there's natural magnet deposit. That's one of the big things in the TV show that they kind of looking for one. Also thing that does happen in the TV show that they keep trying to do is that people get. Things happen to people who dig on the land. Yeah. So they have the one guy that they send out to go dig and then bad shit happens to him all.

[Ed Larson]

The time in the ground. Every time I throw a magnet in the air, it goes right back to the ground.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Something else.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah, there's many gu. Yeah. Thomas Winterton, he's the guy who keeps digging and he keeps having accidents. And like, he's got like this thing on his head. He's like, got this fluid that keeps like building up at a bump on his head. He keeps getting a drain. Every time he talks about digging, the fluid starts building up again. Like, it's just. It's like Skinwalker Ranch. It's just. It's one of the weirdest places on Earth. It still really is. It's just weird. It's a weird place where weird happens. And that's the. That's the most update we can possibly do.

[Henry Zebrowski]

The only thing I'll understand, Utah, trying. But it is interesting. It is. But it is. For me.

[Marcus Parks]

It is so more of a goal than a triangle.

[Henry Zebrowski]

The basin. But it's like. It's. It's amazing to think that it's gotten so much coverage. This was extremely a secret, untrodden place for thousands of years. And now it's everywhere. Millions of people know about Skinwalker Ranch and the activity that happens in Skinwalker Ranch. And still we know nothing. And I think that's an. It's one thing that shows. Is that we're. We're evil, we're interested. And people want it to be real. They want it to be real, and it's hard to pin down. I think that's one of the main. What you were talking about is that it's hard because you're watching all the stuff. You want something to come out of it, but it's never going to give it to you.

[Ed Larson]

Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

It's never going to ever, ever, ever give it to you. It doesn't want you to have it.

[Ed Larson]

It seems like there's nothing there. It's.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Because it's. Honestly, if it. I'm. I don't know. I know that it's. It is. Makes total sense to say that there's nothing there there, but it's more like it doesn't want you to have it. Whatever is there, it doesn't want you to have it. And it's not yours to have, really.

[Ed Larson]

Stop putting cows there.

[Henry Zebrowski]

No, man, they fucking. That's their dinner.

[Marcus Parks]

I think we just don't know how to record it. I think there's. There's absolutely something there.

[Henry Zebrowski]

And people are yelling at us and saying that we're dumb or whatever already, but I. But I still. I.

[Marcus Parks]

But I'm not going to use a. I'm not going to use a camera to take a picture of an atom. You know, it's like, it's not the.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Right tool, you know, that's cameras made out of atoms.

[Ed Larson]

There you go.

[Marcus Parks]

Well, that's the thing, is that we can use it, you know, like, I'm not going to take a camera to take a picture of bacteria, but I can use a microscope to take a picture of bacteria. And we had the ability to take pictures of people long before we had the abilities to take pictures of bacteria. And I think we're just in that same. We're in that same technology, like, weird gap technology.

[Ed Larson]

We need to be developing better cameras or different cameras, but we can't do.

[Henry Zebrowski]

That unless we spend the money to go do it, which requires US to waste $22 million of tax money in order to go and try to make something that might record something that would let them get more money, maybe. Yep. Yeah, that's fun.

[Marcus Parks]

If there's a lot, you know, there's a lot. There's a lot going on here, but. Yes. Yeah. So I just believe.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Goddamn George Knapp.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

[Henry Zebrowski]

So I believe him. And he. The way he talked about it, I believe him. I believe that he doesn't want to go back. I believe that he said that what he. When he was coming up against was far, far bigger than when he is allowed to talk about and that he Also has private information that he can't share, but it's the kind of stuff that keeps his hair white, according to him.

[Ed Larson]

You tell me his hair can grow back.

[Henry Zebrowski]

That's enough. That's it.

[Marcus Parks]

Thanks so much for listening. Last update on the left, Everybody go to patreon.com Last podcast on the left to see video episodes of our podcast, follow us on Instagram @lp on the left and on Tic Tac. Go see all of our shows that we do streaming with at Twitch tv, lpntv. And don't forget to go check out all of our live [e-mail] we're doing some east coast shows coming up real soon. We're gonna be going over to dc, New York City, and we're gonna be going to London and Reykjavik in addition to Australia later on in the year. All those dates [e-mail] and go and see if your city's there. Go.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Don't wait.

[Marcus Parks]

Don't wait until we're in town at the airport.

[Ed Larson]

Yeah.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah. The day after the show. Oh, man.

[Henry Zebrowski]

What are you doing in Seattle? We're trying to tell you. We're trying to tell you guys it's a good show. It's a good show. It's a good show.

[Marcus Parks]

Just go check and see if maybe you're. Your city. We're going to be coming to it or near it. We're coming to Boston.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Yeah.

[Ed Larson]

Also Philadelphia and Chicago side stories is coming.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Basically sold out, but we're going to be there by the chicken. To Chicago. We're going to be there.

[Ed Larson]

Nice.

[Marcus Parks]

All right. Goodbye, everybody.

[Henry Zebrowski]

Goodbye. Hail Satan. Again.

[Ed Larson]

Hell nap.

[Marcus Parks]

Yeah.

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