Side Stories: Dig Me A Grave w/ Dick Harpootlian

Summary

Last Podcast on the Left: Side Stories - Dig Me A Grave w/ Dick Harpootlian

Episode Date: November 26, 2025
Host: Ed Larson (with Henry Zebrowski in side stories, then Ed interviews Dick Harpootlian)
Guest: Dick Harpootlian, former South Carolina Senator, prosecutor, and defense attorney

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Overview

This episode of Side Stories features Ed Larson interviewing South Carolina legal legend Dick Harpootlian about his new true crime book, Dig Me A Grave, centered on the prosecution of notorious serial killer Donald "Pee Wee" Gaskins. The episode weaves classic Last Podcast banter with a deep dive into Gaskins’s crimes, the ethics and mechanics of the death penalty, and Harpootlian’s unique career crossing both prosecution and defense in some of the South’s most infamous cases—including the recent Alex Murdoch trial.

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Main Themes and Discussion Points

1. Casual Side Stories Banter and True Crime Roundup

Notable Moments:

• Henry and Ed riff on Zoomer culture, Thanksgiving laziness, and TV fridges (03:00–05:00).
• Discussion of current crime stories—Morgan Geyser (Slenderman stabber) escaping a halfway house with aid from a “victim advocate,” and skepticism about her release (06:53–09:10).
• Overlap with the side stories’ “curse”—news stories wrap up too soon for full coverage (10:15).
• Brief speculation and sardonic jokes about the incoming “Epstein files” and potential political fallout (10:26–12:08).

Quote:

• “The side stories curse. It was wrapped up already, at least.” — Henry (10:15)

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2. Introduction to Dick Harpootlian and "Dig Me A Grave"

Transition: Ed takes over, setting up his nerves over interviewing a “prestigious” former Senator and defense attorney (15:00).

Background

• Harpootlian was the prosecutor on the Gaskins case, oversaw 15 death penalty prosecutions, and later became a noted defense attorney and South Carolina Senator.
• His book Dig Me A Grave chronicles the Gaskins case, Pee Wee's crimes, and reflections on justice, ethics, and capital punishment.

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3. The Life and Crimes of Donald "Pee Wee" Gaskins

Key Discussion (15:39–51:00)

Gaskins's Kill Count and Modus Operandi

• Largest serial killer in South Carolina history, “convicted of murder number 14” (15:47).
• Chilling description of Pee Wee smuggling C4 into prison to kill another inmate on death row (16:32).
  • “He arranged…to kill the perpetrator of that armed robbery…smuggled in a quarter of a pound of C4 explosive…blew the guy's head off.” — Harpootlian (15:47)

Tape-Recorded Confessions and Evidence

• Harpootlian shares that Gaskins recorded conversations arranging the prison murder, some of which he still possesses (16:58).

Escapes and Influence in Prison

• Gaskins was “the model inmate,” gained status in prison as "building man" with practical skills, enabling privileges and control (18:32).
• Multiple escapes as a youth and criminal, including bending courthouse window bars and writing "I was here, haha Peewee" in dew on a cop car (38:59–42:10).

Racially Motivated and Familial Victims

• Pee Wee was described as a "virulent racist," and some of the most heinous murders involved a pregnant woman and her mixed-race child (19:00).
• First known murders: his niece Janice Kirby and her friend, beaten to death and hidden in a septic tank (55:01–58:45).

Danger to Prosecutor’s Own Family

• Gaskins, before his execution, plotted from prison to have Harpootlian’s 4-year-old daughter kidnapped for leverage to escape (22:00).
  • “He attempted to have my four year old daughter kidnapped and held hostage two weeks out to try to get me to get him brought up to the courthouse…” — Harpootlian (21:58)

Body Count Exaggerations

• Gaskins claimed over 100 murders in his autobiography, The Final Truth, but Harpootlian is skeptical: “He always wanted people to think that he was a big guy at 5 foot 2 and 110 pounds. He obviously had some issues about being the biggest, the best or whatever.” (44:33)
• Harpootlian's documentation pegs the number at 14 confirmed, with detailed confessions backed by forensic corroboration.

Associates and Manipulation

• Gaskins surrounded himself with social outcasts and was described as "charismatic"—able to persuade others to kill or aid escapes (55:10).
• Orchestrated "love stories" from prison, like with Suzanne "Long Legs" Owens, who escaped custody and remained on the run for years at his command (59:00–61:12).

Quotes:

• “He was a killing machine… cunning.” — Harpootlian (43:49)
• “This book is virtually 100% accurate.” — Harpootlian, holding up the original 500+ page confession transcript (61:53)

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4. Capital Punishment—Ethics and Mechanisms

Switching Death Penalties: Electric Chair, Firing Squad, and Lethal Injection

(30:49–35:02)

• Harpootlian championed bringing back the firing squad as more humane than the electric chair:
  • “When Gaskins was executed, his hair caught on fire, his eyes exploded…We're better than him.” (30:57)
• Describes current options in SC: “You can choose firing squad, lethal injection, or the electric chair.” (31:20)
• Firing squad mechanics: three shooters, all with live rounds, using .30-06 rifles with laser sights, and a target over the condemned's heart (32:28).

Never Watching an Execution

• Harpootlian refused to attend Gaskins's execution:
  • “I’m better than Gaskins. I wasn't gonna go watch him die. He enjoyed watching people die. That's not what I … enjoy.” (36:35)

Personal Toll of Capital Cases

• Six weeks after Gaskins’s execution, Harpootlian quit as prosecutor from the trauma—acknowledging the emotional cost (37:51).

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5. Murdoch Case and Legal Philosophy

(62:00–79:51)

The Murdoch Family and Alec Murdoch Trial

• Harpootlian’s history with the Murdochs: knew the family through multiple generations of South Carolina solicitors (64:03–66:29).
• Defended Paul Murdoch (Mallory Beach boat homicide), then, after Paul's death, Alec Murdoch in the murder of his wife and son.
• Argues Alec Murdoch may have been wrongfully convicted, presenting evidence gaps (no blood on Alec, odd timeline, conflicting forensics) and problematic conduct by the court clerk (70:07–75:57).
  • “I don't think he killed Maggie and Paul… The download shows that, that Alec drove that vehicle to the house at Moselle, parked it…Maggie's phone is being thrown out on the side of the road while he's a half mile away cranking his car…” (70:11–75:52)

Defense Ethics and Public Judgment

• On defending guilty clients: “When you're a defense attorney, your duty is to represent your client…You don't fabricate evidence, you don't help…you make the system work.” (76:43–79:17)
• Relates the tradition back to John Adams defending British soldiers (Boston Massacre).
• On public criticism: “How can you represent that guilty son of a bitch? I hope you die of ass cancer.” (80:33, quoting hate mail)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

On Gaskins’s charisma:
“He was sort of charismatic. And of course, the flotsam and jetsam of society gravitated around him.” — Harpootlian (55:10)

On the personal cost of prosecution:
“It was traumatic…six weeks later I quit.” — Harpootlian (37:51)

On the American justice system:
“It’s not about winning or losing. This isn’t the football game…The rule of law keeps all of us free.” — Harpootlian (78:19)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:01–01:16: Ads/banter, skip content
• 03:00–05:03: Henry and Ed riff on holiday laziness/fridges
• 06:53–09:19: Morgan Geyser escape story/Splenderman context
• 10:26–12:08: Epstein files jokes/political jabs
• 15:00–15:39: Ed’s nerves introducing Dick Harpootlian
• 15:47–18:32: Pee Wee Gaskins C4 prison murder operation
• 21:58–23:26: Plot to kidnap Harpootlian’s daughter
• 30:49–35:02: Detailed description of firing squad, capital punishment ethics
• 36:35: Harpootlian refusing to watch Gaskins execution
• 44:33: Debunking Gaskins’s claims of 100 victims
• 55:01–58:45: Pee Wee’s first convicted murders (niece and friend)
• 61:53: The confessions transcript—foundation for the book
• 64:03–66:29: Harpootlian’s connection to the Murdoch family
• 70:07–75:52: Alec Murdoch’s case, evidence breakdown
• 76:43–79:17: Ethics of criminal defense
• 80:33: Harpootlian on hate mail and public backlash
• 81:29: Interview conclusion

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Final Thoughts

This episode blends the dark humor and macabre levity of Last Podcast on the Left with a rare, in-depth look into the realities of prosecuting and defending the vilest criminals. Harpootlian is candid, measured, and surprisingly philosophical, sharing both astonishing true crime stories and nuanced takes on justice, ethics, and the flaws of the system. Dig Me A Grave is pitched throughout as an extremely thorough primary documentation of Pee Wee Gaskins—rife for anyone who loves true crime with firsthand access.

Ed’s closing summary:
“I really appreciate you coming in. Pick up the book Dig Me a Grave… You were amazing. I'd love to talk to you more again sometime about the Alex Murdoch case…” (81:26)

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Transcript

[A]

Oh, hey, welcome to gift wrapping.

[B]

Whoa.

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So is Saldana.

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I'm the worst.

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I only got my mom a robe.

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Incredible.

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In fact, wrap up my old phone too for my aunt Rosa.

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Forget that.

[C]

Aunt Liz will be jealous.

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Sounds like my family drama.

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Oh, I got it. I'll give it to my abuela. I'll take reindeer paper with. Hey, where are you going?

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To T Mobile.

[D]

The holidays are better.

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[D]

There's no place to escape to.

[B]

This is the last on the left side story.

[D]

That's when the cannibalism started.

[A]

Side stories. Yes. Abcdefj H, I, J, K L, M.

[B]

N, A B, Q, R, S, T.

[A]

U, V, W, X, N, A, Y, C, af, J, K. Yeah.

[B]

Henry, is that the Alphabet?

[A]

Yeah, you know it is. And you know what I do, and this is true, this is a little helpful tip for everybody out there is I practice doing it backwards.

[B]

Oh, really?

[D]

For.

[B]

For when you get arrested eventually.

[A]

For my dui.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I practice it because they can.

[B]

Give you a DUI for weed. I find like a half joint in your car.

[A]

I practice the walk.

[B]

Uhhuh.

[A]

I practice holding my leg up. Yeah, I practice. I'm so good at drunk tests. Yeah, you'd have no idea how drunk I was until obviously I was like fighting the officer.

[B]

That's the thing is like, you just. You get. You pass all the tests and you take a swing and you're the problems.

[A]

It cuts to the suv like the SUV just seesawing on the divider. Being like I'm walking fine. It's the drive. And that's the problem, Officer. You know, like maybe the problem is I shouldn't be in a car. Officer. I'm joking. I don't drunk and drive anymore.

[B]

Anymore is the real key there.

[A]

Yeah, I don't do it anymore.

[B]

Yeah. And when I used to do it, I used to do it in Henry's car.

[D]

Yep.

[B]

When I would steal it from him.

[A]

And that's called sharing. It's called community. And the Zoomers are losing it. Welcome to side Stories. My name is Henry. I'm sitting here with Ed Larson.

[B]

Yeah, the Zoomers are losing and the Gooners are winning, baby.

[A]

Yeah, they are. Now you would say, oh Henry and Ed, what a wonderful bunch of stories that are coming out this week. Aren't you so excited to do a show? And we were like save it all for next week Thanksgiving. Because we know we were tired.

[B]

Still got together to talk.

[A]

We did.

[B]

But we're like we're not working.

[A]

Technically we are, but we're not.

[B]

Well, it'll be fun though. We have a good thing.

[A]

There's two things that I. Well, next week we're going to come back hardcore with these amazing topics. Number one, the deformed story is about to. Absolutely. There's a new guy. They believe that there is a person that helped him.

[B]

Of course there is. He's an idiot. He got away with it for too long.

[A]

Very much so. The story of a story. She was frozen. So they don't know if they can find out a way of dying a like how she died. They think it's going to up when she finding out when she died. So that's going to be very like that's why the iceman used to freeze him.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Because it fucks up the time of death.

[B]

Interesting. Interesting. So all right, all right. But they don't know how she died.

[A]

No, we don't know yet.

[B]

No. Like strangulation? Nothing like that.

[A]

Well, it certainly wasn't of old age in a nursing home. Certainly not, no. So that is there. It was bad. Whatever it was, it was before her time. And also we missed a frozer in the bin.

[B]

Like put her in a deep freezer.

[A]

I actually, I don't know, I don't.

[B]

Think the four of it's forward thinking enough to buy a deep freezer.

[A]

There's a weird part of me that thinks that before it doesn't have a queen's fridge like I do. Yeah. Like, I have the meat freezer in the other room.

[B]

Nothing made me feel like I had made it till that second refrigerator came into my life.

[A]

I don't care.

[B]

I keep it on and I. I warm. Like, I. I cool, like, four beers in there and I don't care.

[A]

I have a drink fridge.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it's trash. And that is my right.

[B]

Yes, it is as trash. Yeah. I don't need much more than that.

[A]

No. That's all I ever wanted was the second one. And also possibly a television outside.

[D]

Whoa.

[A]

That's the other big sign of true trash with money really is putting a television outside of your home.

[B]

Yeah. Are you ready for that? I mean, you got the screen. You put the.

[A]

Natalie says she wants me to watch her more outside.

[B]

Oh, so you're gonna put a TV so I can go back and physically be there? Yeah, but you're not actually watching.

[A]

No, I'm watching both.

[B]

What do you mean? You're what? She wants you to watch her because she's scared she's gonna fall.

[A]

No, she's just like, oh, we should spend more time outside together. We have a backyard. I was like, yes, I agree with.

[B]

That, by the way.

[A]

Same.

[B]

But Julie talked about this recently as well.

[A]

But I like watching movies so we can be outside together.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

While I'm watching a movie.

[B]

That makes sense. That makes sense. You know what it is? It's like whenever I'm out of town or I, like, get an Airbnb, I spend the whole time in the backyard. And then I come home and I never enjoy my own backyard.

[A]

You got to put time. That's why you got Julie working like she's a human backhoe back there dragging rocks back and forth. A human fucking piece of construction equipment.

[B]

My yard looks amazing. I love you, Julie.

[A]

Julie has been hand digging up that yard like she's my therapist.

[B]

Had, like, I was, like, having problems, like, because my manliness came in the question. Because I'm not helping.

[A]

No.

[B]

I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I refused to. And I was like, let me hire somebody to help you out. I'm not trying to fudgeing dig up the backyard. And she's like, no. She took that as, like, a challenge.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That, like, I like me saying, you can't do this. I'm like, I'm not saying you can't do this. I'm saying, you don't have to do this.

[A]

I'm going to do this, Natalie. Be like, I Bet you can't dig us a. You can't dig us a pool, huh? I mean, I bet a woman can't dig a pool on her own, huh?

[B]

If that don't work with her. Try it on Julie.

[A]

I will.

[B]

It will get her to do.

[A]

Oh, I bet a woman wouldn't know how to order the proper shovels in order to dig this pool. But also, you know what a woman can do is help a murderer get out of their care home. Morgan Geyser. That was the other big story of the week.

[B]

God be a woman with the last name Geyser. The boys come knocking for old Geyser.

[A]

Put on your water shoes. It was a little girl. But so Morgan Ger.

[B]

Okay, I thought that was the adult.

[A]

Yeah, I mean it sort of. So Morgan Geyser and her cohort. I forgot her cohort. But she was actually put into jail for stabbing a little girl, their friend. Now remember, this is the second Slenderman stabber Morgan Geiser was put into. She was released from jail. Against a lot of our thoughts here at last podcast in the left. We thought maybe she could.

[D]

She.

[A]

I feel like that she may be. Should have been in a more controlled environment. And it turns out I was completely right because then she immediately escaped from the halfway home that she was in with a geolocator tracker on her that was snipped off. Turns out she was helped by some random busy body woman that decided to just help her. She. She's a quote unquote victim advocate dec. To help her escape from the insane asylum. So for a second we thought that we had Michael Myers on our hands. I was so excited.

[B]

God, it is like I was going to say is it wrong that this is like fun and exciting to me?

[A]

Dude, Nelly yelled at me because I said it was like when then when the news came out, I was like, this is amazing. And she's like, it's not amazing. She's a vulnerable person. I was like, yes, I know, but she's also a psychopath. He's got a. You're doing it. She's going rogue, you know.

[B]

Oh, she went too early. That's the problem.

[A]

She had no idea what she was doing.

[B]

So she made it up to Madison.

[A]

She made it pretty far with the help of a. Another dumb person that helped them go. And it's really sad. Morgan Geyser I think is going to. There's a lot going on here. I. I still think that Morgan Geyser is not yet out of the woods.

[B]

Of course not.

[A]

I will say, even though they did just go into the woods and come.

[B]

Back out of the woods. That other person, technically, who help her, if I was Morgan Geyser, I'd be like, she convinced me to do it. I'm a, you know, I'm a victim.

[A]

That sort of is what she's. That's basically what she.

[B]

That's what she should do.

[A]

That is kind of what she's doing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Saying that she was manipulated by somebody.

[B]

That.

[A]

And it's. Yeah, I know she's a murderer. I know she's a murderer. She's a murder.

[B]

Well, well. Yeah, she's a child murderer, though.

[A]

She's not a murderer. The child never died.

[B]

The child never died.

[A]

Child never died.

[B]

You know, you got to let these people have to rehabilitate and you got to let them out eventually.

[A]

I utterly agree. Except for the fact that she was still talking to Slender man until not that long ago.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Yes, Slender.

[B]

What did he say?

[A]

He's saying lots of stuff, weirdly, a lot about bonds, which I actually thought was interesting. He said something about the idea of let your bonds mature and then, like on baloney.

[B]

A coin. Did you get Melania coin?

[A]

Yeah. Yes, yes. I ordered the Trump shoes. Where are they? Where are my Trump shoes? But, yeah, that's the big case, which is sad, but also it's nice because of the side stories curse. It was wrapped up already, at least.

[B]

Okay, all right.

[A]

So that's. That's already happened. She was really. She escaped. She was already recaptured by the time the news cycle was over.

[B]

Hell yeah, man. So that's so exciting.

[A]

But it made me sad.

[B]

So we're gonna. We did get the. The Epstein shits finally coming out, but it hasn't come out yet.

[A]

It's all going to be so redacted. It's gonna be so going to be.

[B]

I don't think the fact that they all said that they were going to do it all of a sudden means like, oh, it's just all redacted.

[A]

Every one of these slime balls can. Each one.

[B]

At least. Honestly, at least we know that they're going to take down all the Democrats.

[A]

I mean, I know.

[B]

At least. Honestly, though. At least, like some people are going to get.

[A]

Yeah, I guess. Which is nice. It's like. But I want all of them to get. Daddy.

[B]

Yes. I want all of them, too. But we can start. Well, they're going to start rolling.

[A]

Yeah. Get all, you know, as they should.

[B]

Yeah, they should go arrest Bill Clinton. He's like, yeah, Trump blew me.

[A]

I Trump sucked my fucking Dick, Bill Clinton needs to put out the pictures.

[B]

Going to die any day.

[A]

The pictures. When it shows with Donald Trump with come on his lips.

[B]

Oh, because, you know, if he had a camera phone in the moment.

[A]

Oh, yeah, they're taking a selfie, but.

[B]

They didn't have camera.

[A]

Would you believe this is hilarious. Now this is funny.

[B]

I can't believe you guys. Hold it on your chin.

[A]

Listen, I got something I got to say here. Donald, I've had a lot of blowjobs from all fat girls before, and you're.

[B]

One of the best I've ever had. God damn it.

[A]

I love your man. I just got to say, you've got the best. You got the best gut I've ever seen since. Since Petunia Richardson, who I met at the Cracker Barrel in Tuscaloosa.

[B]

I swear to God, when you were giving me a blowjob, I thought I was you in the ass. Come on.

[A]

Did you push goddamn ugly. You push the bottom of your belly together. I want to imagine up titty. I want to imagine titty, my cousin.

[B]

Oh, my God there coming out of my penis.

[A]

Guys, don't worry. This is going to be a fun news cycle. Can't wait for the of that news. I say we dig up no match. No Johnski still alive, right?

[B]

Who cares?

[A]

He's going to fall. Let's get his fucking ass. All right, so this is it. So now we are going to. Because this is a holiday break.

[B]

This is.

[A]

Happy Thanksgiving. Eddie did this incredible interview. Really good. It's a really good interview.

[B]

I was so scared. I was. I was losing my mind. I was terrified. Henry's like, I'm sick. I can't. I can't make the interview. For the senator.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For the. Alex Murdaugh defending senator. I have to do this by myself.

[A]

Mr. Mor. Mr. Mor. How does it feel to be a part. Be a charge with the capital crime of mortal.

[B]

He's like, yeah, no, don't worry. He wrote. He's got this new book coming out about Pee Wee Gasket. I'm like, who?

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

So I had to fucking study for a day and a half.

[A]

But Ed Larson sat down with the. I believe the head of the defense team for Alec Murdoch, who is a former senator and a friends with the.

[B]

Murdoch family, which we got into a little bit.

[A]

Very fascinating. But Ed did this in such. I'm so glad I wasn't there so that you could do what you do best, which is you kind of innocently just ask questions, push buttons on the senator that loved you for it. So you got. I mean this honestly.

[B]

I have a respect for this man, even though I'm not sure if he's evil or not. But the book seems good.

[A]

You guys got to check. He's got a new book coming out.

[B]

All about Pee Wee Gaskins. Pee Wee Gaskins tried to kill Kidna, tried to kidnap his daughter.

[A]

Yes, he prosecuted Peewee Gaskins. He then switched over to the other side to make that money, became a.

[B]

Senator, and then advocated for the firing squad during his time being a senator, which I talked to him about. And then after that, he defended Alex Murdoch.

[A]

You got to see that. You got to go and check out this interview Ed does with Dick Harputlan. Check this out next. And we will be back next week after Thanksgiving with we're gonna. This all. Everything's just gonna get worse. Yeah, and that only means we get funnier.

[B]

Hey, Henry, did you know that the. Apparently the Department of Homeland Security's Twitter account is based out of Tel Aviv.

[A]

Nothing says home like another country. So go check it out. Hail Satan and enjoy Ed's lip service to old Dick.

[B]

Oh, and I want to hail Jimmy Cliff. He passed away today. Oh, wow. One of my favorite artists of all time.

[A]

Also, strangely enough, UDU Kier died as well.

[B]

Really?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

The great actor.

[B]

Oh, man, what a fucking day. And all on Bootsy Collins's birthday. What are we supposed to do with all this information? Listen to the Dick Harpoulian interview.

[D]

Starting now.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Thank you and welcome, honored and loyal Patreon listeners of last podcast on the left. I'm sitting here with the most prestigious man I've ever talked to, Dick Harpoulian, former senator of South Carolina. Democrat senator of South Carolina. Not very common that you get one of those. And you were a Democratic senator from 2018. 2018 to 2024. But we're not talking about that today. Too much today we're talking about his new book, Dig me a Grave. And it tells the story of Harpurion's real life prosecution of Donald Peewee Gaskins.

[D]

Wow.

[B]

So you were the prosecutor on one of the most prolific serial killers in American history.

[D]

Well, the largest serial killer in South Carolina convicted of murder number 14. This guy really liked to kill. He arranged, we don't think for money, but he arranged with the son of two folks that were gunned down during an armed robbery, hired Gaskins, or arranged for Gaskins to kill the perpetrator of that armed robbery and murder, who was on death row. And Gaskins smuggled in a quarter of a pound of C4 explosive blasted gap to the most secure wing of the most secure facility in South Carolina in 1982 and blew the guy's head off.

[B]

How do you smuggle in C4 into a prison?

[D]

That's a great question. You know, we have it. Gaskin's tape recorded his conversations with Sema. We know what he said to do which was to mail it him mail it to him in a. In a radio. And I actually at some point during this process can play a couple minutes to that conversation if you find it interesting. Or I could send it to you.

[B]

Oh please send it over. I'd love to hear that. That's incredible. We'll add that in. Matter of fact, we'll hear it right here.

[E]

I need. I need one electric chair and as much of a sticker damn dynamite as you can get. I'll take a damn radio and rigged in the bum. The way he plugs it up, that son of a will go off and there won't be no damn coming back on that. Okay, I'll get one of these battery electric types up in one of these old cheap things and put it in and give it to him. And when he plugs that son of a up, it'll blow him on in the hell. But one electric cap and as much of a stick you can get in and as pure as you can get. He told me to call you maybe over the weekend you can find one stick somewhere and get it to me and damp. I can't fix him other. Okay, well I'll probably get at least plastic explosive. Well, that'll be good. I can handle it as long as I got that electric cap. Or where it'll go out when he plugs it in the wall socket. All the troubles will be over. If I thought about that a long time ago, it already been over with. Cause he's in the cell by himself. It ain't done nothing. Just make him sick as hell. Just make him sick as hell. He'll look pale as hell for a day or two and that's it. Give it to him. Give it to him. I got about one more ghost. I'm gonna give him his eggs in the morning. That's something that you about run me crazy. All right. And well, I'll get that stuff going this week and I can get there. I know where I can get Good, good. Just get me enough to do the damn job and listen for the bang.

[B]

So he was hired to kill as it so as a convict. He's already on death row at this point.

[D]

Give you Give you history. Gaskins was convicted and sentenced to death for two murders in the 73. 71. I can't remember the exact time range. US Supreme Court decided a case called Furman vs Georgia which set aside virtually every death penalty conviction or sentence in the country, including Gaskins. Gaskins was told that they would re prosecute him for that and get him the death penalty unless he confessed to every other murder he had done for which he had not been caught. So he confessed to 11 other murders, actually took him out, dug up the bodies, helped them dig up the bodies. But 13 victims were bodies were recovered total, including the two he was convicted of. And he got, you know, 12 or 13 life sentences. Now in 1975 when that happened, the penalty for murder was, was, was life. However, they had never changed the law that said if, if you got life, you're eligible role in 10 years. So technically he was eligible to get out in 10 years. So and he was the, he was the model inmate. So they made him the building man, they call it, for the cell block in which death row, cell block two, Death row was contained. And he became, he was the head trustee. He and he had a background of he could fix the plumbing, he could fix the electricity, the electrical problems. He basically was the maintenance guy and he picked all the other trustees. So he had a tremendous amount of power in that cell block. And again he. Now one of the sort of overarching issues in Pee Wee's life was he was probably the worst, the most virulent racist you could ever imagine. One of the murders or two of the murders in the book are early on in his career where a woman he had dated, I use that term loosely a few years before, shows up in his doorstep pregnant with her two year old child who, who she admitted was of mixed race and she was pregnant by a black man. So in Peewee's mind, those folks would not, if they realized how bad and how awful the situation was, would not want to live. So he took him to a little pond behind his house where he drowned the pregnant woman and then beat the two year old to death with a hammer and then buried them in the swamp. So the Tyner who's the guy on Death Road is African American, killed two white folks. And so I'm not sure he was hired to do it. I think he did it because he wanted to do it. And that was the, that final one. The 14th murder was the one I convicted him of. He was sentenced to death and executed about six years later. No, about eight years later. And at the time he was executed, I was elected DA and he attempted to have my four year old daughter kidnapped and held hostage two weeks out to try to get me to get him brought up to the courthouse where he thought he could escape.

[B]

And how did that go down?

[D]

Well, his son, teenage son, was visiting him and he, his name was Don. He said, donnie, look, they're going to kill me unless we can find a way out. Here's what you do. You go kidnap sister Harpoon's daughter, put her in the trunk of your car, hold her hostage, call him and tell him to have me brought up to the courthouse for a meeting with him in his office. Now Gaskin somehow knew I had a private entrance and exit. Not many people did, but he knew that and he thought if he could get up there, he could escape. And he said, and he, and this is in young Gaskin's statement he gave later on. What am I supposed to do if he won't do that? He said, killer. Now little Gaskins, young Gaskins went to a friend of his and tried to recruit him. Said his father pay him $5,000 to help him pull off his kidnapping. That kid, while his background was, had plenty of criminal activity in it, knew this was a bridge too far. So he went to the sheriff, told the sheriff was going on. They took young Gaskins into custody and this kid into custody. But there were other people out there that Gaskins may have talked to. So we lived, my, my four year old, my wife and I lived with the police special agents living with us armed with automatic weapons for two weeks until they executed. So. Wow, he made it personal, you know?

[B]

Yes, he did. That is, it couldn't be more personal. And what, what happened to young Donald, what was his sentence after that?

[D]

Well, he didn't actually effectuate anything. So they held him for a while and then let him out. I mean once his dad was dead, he was no longer a threat to me.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

And his father went to the electric chair.

[B]

Now his father went to the electric chair and you prosecuted him and you also, you prosecuted some other people who went to the electric care as well, right? Like 12 people total.

[D]

No, I prosecuted, I, I prosecuted probably 15 death penalty cases post Furman. I prosecuted one Gaskins and one more where he was sentenced to death. Our state supreme court affirmed it. I argued it in front of the U.S. supreme Court and it got, his death sentence got commuted to life by the Supreme Court of the United States. A little bit of a side note, Justice Souter had just been appointed by George H. Bush and turned out to be not the conservative that George H. Bush thought he would be. And he was vehemently anti death penalty. And while he's on the court, he always voted against it. And look, I'm not a death penalty fanatic. I think in limited circumstances where the act is an act of self defense, I mean, Gaskin's, you know, gets sentenced to death, then gets a break, commuted to life and then he tries to, I mean, not tries, he does assassinate somebody on death row. I mean, if not him, who? I mean, how are you going to stop him? In prison? He continues to kill. Yeah, this other guy was a serial rapist. He preyed on women. Eight women in their 80s. Beat one to death. He beat them all up, but beat one to death. He was an animal. He was a just a, you know, someone that every minute he's breathing air, somebody's going to get hurt from your grave.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

So, also, speaking of capital punishment and death penalty, you've advocated for firing squad to be brought back, correct?

[D]

As a senator, I introduced legislation to bring the firing squad back. And the rationale for that is, in my mind, pretty simple. When Gaskins was executed, his hair caught on fire, his eyes exploded. It. It. I mean, it's a horrible way to die. And, you know, we're better than him. So for a number of years, we had the option of electric chair. They picked electric chair, lethal injection. And almost everybody picked lethal injection. And then the drug companies would. Would not. Would they stop furnishing the drugs. So the only option was the electric chair. And so I'd read a number of articles, including an opinion, including an opinion by Justice Sotomayor, a liberal, that she felt that the firing squad was much more humane than the electric chair. And by all accounts, it is now the inmate take. Now we've gotten the drugs back here, so you can choose firing squad, lethal injection, or the electric chair. And I think most of them are going for lethal injection again. Although a guy a few months ago picked firing squad. So it's their. Their choice. They made some bad choices in their lives. They get to make one more.

[B]

So when someone's executed by firing squad, like, is that true that one person has blanks, or is that just a myth?

[D]

That's a myth.

[B]

That's a myth. So everyone. How many people. Can you explain the process to me?

[D]

Just in South Carolina differs from state to state that have this. There's three people. They're about, I think, 15ft away. The. The. The. In the condemned wear a hood. There's a target put over paper, target put over their heart. The. They use a.30 06, which is, you know, what you shoot a grizzly bear with? I mean, it's a big gun.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And they have laser sights on it. So, you know, you're not gonna miss.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

You're not missing all three? No. With. With. You know, they're using a loaded weapon. And all three shoot with the intent to kill. Who are.

[B]

Who gets hired for this job? What is that?

[D]

Oh, man, they had hundreds of volunteers. Okay. But you've got to be a Department of Corrections employee to begin with, which narrows it down. And then you have to have some skills. You have to show you have a background in being able to handle a weapon, aim a weapon and you know, be effective at it. So it's, it's a very confidential process. But you know, recently the, the, there was rumors that the gentleman who was executed by firing squad, somebody missed because there was only two holes, entrance wounds. And what they found was that because of the laser sights, one bullet went in right where the other bullet went in. So I mean it's, it's the, I mean it's really hard to miss, especially if you're a professional and with the laser sights, it's impossible.

[B]

Do you believe that firing squad is the most humane way to administer the death penalty?

[D]

You know, I think it is a, it's more humane in the electric chair. There's no question about that now whether it's more humane than lethal injection. There have been reports of people that some of the inmates were just yell out and scream they're in pain before they actually go out. I don't know. But my goal, again, the only option when I put this bill in and got it passed was the electric chair. Is it more humane in the electric chair? Absolutely. You can see case after case after case where people don't die. They're in agony for minutes. They take a second, it takes a second jolt. The hair catches on fire, their eyes explode, their skin burns. I mean, you burn. You're basically burning somebody to death.

[B]

Death. Have you ever, have you ever been in the room?

[D]

No, I was invited to Gaskins, but you know, there was, there was a. And maybe this, it's in the book during the trial, which lasted about six weeks on lunch break. And, and by the way, Gaskins was an extraordinarily five foot two, tiny little guy, very engaging, very friendly. In the, all the years that I prosecuted cases, I'd never had a, a defendant referred to me by my first name. But during this process, the pre trial hearings and the trial, his Gaskins would come into the courtroom, he'd say, hey Dick, you know, it's a big smile. And of course at some point you say, hey Pee Wee. You know, it's just, yeah, doing a job. So we're sitting in the courtroom one day at lunch. I'm working at my table, the prosecution table, on getting ready for a witness in the afternoon. And Pee Wee Gaskins is sitting over at the defense table and they were letting him eat his lunch up in the courtroom because the holding cell is, is not conducive to any quieter privacy because there's a whole bunch of other inmates down there. And he's eating his lunch, and I'm working, and I hear him, his high pitched voice say, dick. Dick. I said, what peewee would he want? He said, you know, you're a lot like me. And I said, what? What are you talking about? I'm not a lot like. He said, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Six foot tall.

[D]

He said. He said, no, no, no. He said, you like killing? I said, what? He said, you like killing? No, I don't. He said, well, I've been watching it. You like killing me? You're enjoying it. I said, no, no, no. You know, I'm just. I'm just doing my job. I'm trying to see justice done. He said, no, know you like killing. So what? He's basically saying he's trying to get in my head. You're a lot. I'm the same as him. He kills, I kill. And so when I was. I mean, first of all, I don't want to watch anybody die, but secondly, I'm better than Gaskins. I wasn't gonna go watch him die. He enjoyed watching people die. That's not what I. I mean, I enjoy doing my job, which is being an effective advocate for my position. But watching him die, and I had that opportunity. I turned it down. I probably, by the way, I would have had left my family, who was under guard, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Because the assassination of the kidnapping threat, and Which I wasn't about to do. I got a call about midnight from the head of our law enforcement division saying he was dead. And I got a good night's sleep.

[B]

I bet you did. That must have been a very trying time. And I appreciate you.

[D]

It was a very. And by the way, I quit six weeks later. Really? Yeah. No, it was traumatic. The prosecution. And that was my third death penalty case in, like, two years. The preparation, the intensity. And then on the Gaskins case, it was. It was six weeks. Longest crim. Longest criminal trial in the history of the state until two years ago, when I would participate in a case as a defense attorney representing a guy named Alec Murdoch.

[B]

Oh, yeah, That's a very crazy case as well.

[D]

Now, that's the longest. Now that's the longest criminal case in the history of the state. 40 years apart. I did both of them, of course.

[B]

Man. Well, you got to call him the best guy for the job, apparently. So Alex Murdaugh. I do want to talk more about. Let's get to Alex in a second. I want to talk more about Peewee in your book before we. Before we talk about Alex Murdaugh, because That's a whole nother can of worms. I want to stay on peewee for a little bit. Pee Wee Gaskins, he, you, you said he was a model prisoner. Did he. Is it true he escaped a couple times?

[D]

Well, it's sort of a long history, but when he was. He was born in 1933 and went to what, what would be called a reform school today. When he was 14, in the 40s, and he was a little guy and they, you know, 50 of them slept in one big room. He was sexually assaulted every night. And I think it's part of what twisted him the way it was. But he escaped from that reform school six times, seven times over a short period of time and over. And during his criminal career, if you will, he escaped a number of other times. One time from a courthouse during, during a trial. He was so small he could. He bent the bars back on a second floor. This is back before we had air conditioning in courthouses. Yeah. And so they just had an open window. You could close the window. And he got the bars, got out, dropped down, broke his ankle. Actually he walked with a limp later on in life, but he hid under a police car. When they found out he was gone, they'd spread out. When they came back the next morning, written in the dew on the windshield of one of the police cars was, I was here, haha peewee. So. And he escaped two other times when he was incarcerated in, in, in. In county facilities. Now, having said that, after he confessed and was incarcerated, occasionally he would say, at least two occasions I talked to agents that went with him, said, you know, I killed somebody else. I can't remember the name, but I buried him. I can show you where I buried him. And he went out one time I talked to a guy named Tom Henderson who was out there. A sled agent, a state law enforcement agent went with him. And he kept looking around and across the field there was a car sort of driving back and forth. And they believe that it was Gaskins had arranged for a car to be there and he was going to hoof it across the field. And they told him, people, you see that guy over there? If you make a break, we're going to shoot you. So. And they always had ankle things on, you know, bracelets on, so, and, and cuffs. So he couldn't run very fast. But there's no question he was always looking for a way to break out. Even during the trial. He. And of course, the courthouse he went. He went to in 1983 was different than any courthouse. He'd ever been in here in Richmond County. It was a brand new courthouse. No windows. Okay. No windows. Okay. And so no way to break, go through a window. The holding cell was in the basement. And again, no windows, no way to get out of there. So he figured we believe the only way to get to escape and he wanted to escape was to do this. They, he had gotten a prescription for Valium or Xanax, one or the other, to take one every day to quote, calm him down, which I'm, I'm sure was a faked diagnosis.

[B]

I imagine he was a little high strung, little high struggle.

[D]

So he saved him up and took like 10 at once. And so in the middle of the trial, one day in the courtroom, Gaskins just falls over hard, face down on the table. And they carried him downstairs to the holding cell where he thought they would put him in an ambulance and take him to the hospital, but they brought an EMS in there. Now if they take him to the hospital, we think he had maybe had an associate ready and willing to help him escape from the hospital once he was out side those walls, you know, he thought he could get away, but they brought EMS in who treated him, gave him some fluids maybe. I don't think they pumped his stomach, but he was fine. By the next morning when he was getting ready to be executed the day before he cut his wrists. Now where A, where did he get a razor and B, he cut it, you know, he cut him knowing it wouldn't kill him. And he wanted again to go to the infirmary or go somewhere less secure than death row. They sewed him up and the day used to be executed, he told the war and he said, you know, I'm not going to make you look for that razor that I use Anyway, coughed it up, I don't know he had in his stomach or not pulled it out and gave it to the warden. I mean that was incredible. I mean he was a killing machine.

[B]

He really was now.

[D]

Cunning, very cunning.

[B]

You know, he's on record, you said, for 14. Officially. Officially. And wasn't there someone in prison that he liked? Didn't he slit the throat of another.

[D]

Man in prison early on he stabbed an inmate that had threatened. I mean, I say early on in the 60s he was in there on some minor charge and he had a beef with this guy and he stabbed him. Yeah. So that he didn't even get prosecuted for murder, that he got prosecuted for something else. But I mean it wasn't any significant sentence.

[B]

Gotcha, gotcha. And his daughter is on record saying that he killed 105 people involving the, the Coastal murders. And that seems ridiculous, right?

[D]

Well, he wrote a book before he was killed, executed called the Final Truth. It was published afterwards where he claimed to have killed over 100. Picked up girls, hitchhiking, tortured them, mutilated them, ate part of a. Part of their bodies, killed them. And I mean, again, I spent a lot of time with Gaskins. He always wanted people to think that he was a big guy at 5 foot 2 and 110 pounds. He obviously had some issues about being the biggest, the best or whatever. And again, in 1975 he was told, if you tell us about a murder, you won't be prosecuted. You won't either be prosecuted. We'll give you life for it. So he had a get out of jail free for every murder that he'd ever done. And by the way, he never got out of jail after 75, so he couldn't. He didn't have an opportunity to commit any of those murders he talks about. They all had to be pre1975. 73. Don't believe it. It's. It's a, it's. He made it up. And by the way, there was a time there was a guy who was convicted only of kidnapping and murdering a girl from Sumter, S.C. and her father was of some renowned. Her name was cut. No. A guy named Junior Pierce in Georgia was convicted and sentenced for that. Gaskins claimed at. At some point that he committed the murder and then they found out he'd been communicating with Junior Pierce. Was his name the guy in Georgia. So he was just doing that to misdirect he. Again, master of chaos, master of murder.

[B]

That's. That is wild. So do you believe that his number is 14 or do you think it's a different.

[D]

Do you think. I don't think it might be stray one here or there. But again, he had to get out of jail. Not get out of jail, but avoid prosecution card for simply telling about all of it. Didn't matter how they happened, didn't matter whatever. And he confessed to 13.

[B]

And so pee Wee Gaskins, what was his job in life? I know he drove around a hearse, but he wasn't, you know, he wasn't a grave digger or anything.

[D]

He, you know, he was a guy that worked as a roofer, he worked as an electrician, he worked as a plumber. He had all those skills. He also was very good at, at, at dealing with mechanics. He could fix a car. You know, back in the day when you didn't need a computer to do that. It was all, you know, mechanical. He could. He was great with cars. He could put a bomb in a cup. He. Well, and, you know, people say, well, how did he put a bomb in a cup? And by the way, the cup was about this size. This is my yeti about this size. And what he did was he had a soldering iron which the prison allowed him to have because he was working on their electrical work. Melted a hole in the bottom. Yeah, right here. Put a female plug there, connected it on the inside with the blasting cap, put the C4 on top, and then nuts and bolts, any sharp piece of metal he could think of. And then he glued a speaker on top and he convinced Tyner this was an intercom and had it delivered to him. And they would. They had communicated. Peewee's cell was on one side of the tier. If you know what a tear in a prison looks like. It's a. Like a battleship that comes out of the ground.

[B]

Yes.

[D]

And there's cells on then tier two and tier three. This was tier two. One side was Death Road, the other side was just regular inmates. But there were vents in the back of the cells, across from each other as you go down. And Gaskin cell was one, was offset by one with Tiner cell. So he used to yell at him or communicate through those vents.

[B]

I'm sure it was lovely.

[D]

And he got Tyner, he befriended him. He got him marijuana. He got him. And he could have extra food delivered to him because he was the building man. And we found out later on he was putting poison. I'll send you that tape. He talks about how they're trying to poison Tyner. Won't work. So Gaskins finally says, look, I'm. I've rigged up this intercom he has delivered. When the guy delivers his food, he brings that with him too. And he said. And he'd run a wire because he had access to that area between the back of the cells, a wire from his cells to Tyler cell and has a male plug on it. He told Tyner to plug it up and, and put it up to his ear, which he yelled through the thing, can you hear me? And then he plugged his end into the 110. And I'm telling you the pictures. And we have him in the book. He's missing a hand. That speaker went into his brain. I still have the shrapnel they took out of his body from the, from the, from the autopsy. But he. And it took him a while to die.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Even after all that?

[D]

Yeah. I mean, apparently. I mean, he wasn't. I don't think he was conscious, but it took him a while for. I want to say a while. 10, 15 minutes was hard to stop.

[B]

That is. That is truly awful.

[D]

And then he pulls the wire back through, cuts it up, laying on his bed, went, whoa, what was that? Runs outside like everybody else. If he had not tape recorded his phone calls with Simo, the guy that his parents were killed by, Tyner, he would have gotten away with it.

[B]

And what happened to Simo?

[D]

So after. After peewee was convicted, we talked to cmo, and here's what we found, just from an informal sort of focus group of potential jurors. Most of the jurors we talked to or potential jurors we talked to said this guy waited for the South Carolina criminal justice system to give him justice. It didn't work. And what. All he did was what the state was trying to do anyway. Kill the guy. So we put him guilty. He served a couple years to some accessory thing. Served a couple years and got out. Simo. And you'll see this in the book. Simo was twisted up about the death of his adoptive parents. They adopted him. His house was right near the store, and he saw Tyner walking towards the store that night while he was watching tv. Dogs were barking. He thought about checking into it and didn't. So when he finds out later that night that Tyner's killed his parents, he blamed himself and ultimately he killed himself after all of this. So he paid.

[B]

Wow, that is. That is a. That is a lot.

[A]

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[C]

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[D]

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[A]

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[D]

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[B]

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[A]

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[C]

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[B]

Com I'm very excited to read the book Dig me a Grave. It comes out this December 16th in 2025.

[D]

And you could pre and you can pre order right now. Just go to digniagrave.com you can pre order and so where'd you get the title from? Gaskins? Yeah, one of the people who he didn't kill but went with him on one of the killings. Gaskins hands him a shover shovel to to wants to bury the guy and out in the swamp he says quote to the two to the guy handed the shovel to dig me a grave. That's a quote from Peewee and I'm sure he said it more than once.

[B]

How many associates did he have? And how would he have any? Like who. Who's going to take this guy seriously?

[D]

He. He was sort of charismatic. And of course, the flotsam and jetsam of society gravitated around him. You know, con men, thieves, people that committed crimes with him, stole cars or fenced stolen goods. I mean, there were all kinds of people, some on parole, some that just gravitated towards him for a couple reasons. One, he always had young girls around him. Young girls. And he said he was married six times. We don't know. We can't find any official record of him ever being married or divorced. But from time to time he'd have a different wife. Wife. Yeah. And some of these wives ended up with, you know, one of these losers that gravitated towards him. And they were all miscreants. They were all nobody. I mean, and he was. Was smarter, more cunning. And he was so affable. I mean, there were judges I know from where, where he did, where he lived, Sumter in Florence and North Charleston, knew him because he might have done. Help put a roof on their house or fix their car or in some other way did some odd job for him. Because everybody knew Pee Wee could do just about everything and they loved him. I mean, he was just a friendly. I mean, unless you were a threat to him or he felt, you know, he should kill you for one reason or another. You know, the first murders that we know of that he's admitted to and we found bodies for. It's sort of interesting story. He had a niece a little bit younger than 18, probably a little bit over 17, named Janice Kirby. And she had a good friend named Patricia. Let me sure get these names right. Patricia Alsbrook and Peewee, driving that hearse around, goes into a drive in restaurant one night and sees his niece and this girl with a bunch of other girls and they're drinking beer. And the Alsbrook girl seems, and she's probably 17, somewhat intoxicated. And his niece expressed some concern about that he doesn't want her driving home. I tell you what, why don't we drive over to my place and she can sober up and then go home. And they said fine. So both of them get in the car and they go over to his house. And when they get to his house, that Kirby, his niece, goes to the restroom. When she comes back out, Peewee is pulling this drunk girl's pants off. He's got a butcher knife and threatening her. And they push him out of the way. And they take off and go into the woods. He grabs him, he's got a little Beretta. He chases after him, brings him back to the house and then uses the gun and beats both of them to death. Okay, now, yeah. He then puts their bodies in that hearse and drives them to a house where he knows there's a septic tank tank. And he puts their bodies in the septic tank. Now for your viewers that don't know what a septic tank is, I used to have one. Okay, well, you know what it is? It's a place the sewage percolate goes into this chamber. It percolates, but the bulk of the sewage stays in that chamber. And occasionally you may have to get it drained. But nobody ever looks in a septic tank.

[B]

No.

[D]

And the smell, it's awful. It's awful. And it's going to be awful whether there's a decomposing body in there or not. But later on he took police there and, and they found the remains. So that's the first time we know, other than that prison stabbing, that he actually killed somebody. And it was his niece and her friend. The friend. He and he had a thing for young girls, virtually meaning married. A 14 year old. Married and a 14 year old. And these, these girls. And one girl, Kim Gelkins, later on, probably the last murder he committed, he was afraid that she was pregnant by him and we're gonna. And she was very young and she was going to tell people that he was the dad. So he killed her and anybody that crossed him. And of course one of the great love stories of this book, okay, is there's a woman named Suzanne Owens, also known as Long Legs. She was about 6ft tall. She had a boyfriend who broke up with her and promised her to give her a house and all and didn't do it. So she paid Gaskins a thousand dollars to kill him, which he did. He cut his throat, killed him and she helped. And she ended up getting convicted of accessory to murder. Got. Got a, I believe life sentence also one of. And sort of they continued to correspond even after Peewee was on death row. And he tells her in a letter or maybe it was on a telephone call. We got a copy of that. Look, your, your custody is, is minimal security. Now get a job where you work on the gardens around the gate and just one day go out there and just walk off. And which she did. And she stayed gone for almost 10 years. She was on escape when. And of course Pee Wee said, I'll escape and meet you Somewhere. But, but, but she was on escape when this plot to kidnap my daughter was going on. So even after we had Donnie in custody, we didn't know where she was or who else might be involved. That's why we locked down.

[B]

Well, you probably see her coming down the road, six feet tall, you know.

[D]

Well remember now he's five foot one.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

She feet tall. And there's no question they had a physical relationship after he killed her ex boyfriend. So they were lovers? I mean, if you want to. I don't have no graphic sex in.

[B]

This book, but love finds a way. Yes. So. All right. I want to switch gears from Pee Wee Gaskins. I can't wait to read this book. It's going to be incredible. You have a bevy of information that I'm sure is unbelievable. Comes out around Christmas. If you got a true crime fan in the, in the family.

[D]

Let me, let me show you something. And this is why I can tell you this book is virtually 100 accurate. This document right here is a transcript. Whoa. And when Gaskins, when Gaskins confessed to all the other murders, a prosecutor named Ken Summerford had it, had a court reporter there and took it down. That's what this is. This is 500 pages of peewee describing each and every murder. So when we have details in this book, they're from Peewee or other. We had other witnesses too, but, but primarily from Peewee. All these, all this stuff were exhibits in the 1983 trial. And when I got elected solicitor in 1990, took office in 91, a few months before he was executed, after he was executed, the cork of court came to me and said, we've got all these exhibits, this transcript and all pictures and, and, and physical evidence. We're getting ready. We normally would just throw this stuff out. I said, no, no, I'll take it. So I put it in storage back in 1991. And then when I began the process of writing the book, I mean this, this is the only copy of this transcript that exists today. Wow. And it would have been thrown out. So the, the, this book is based on not only my observations, but Peewee's observations.

[B]

Wow. How much of that can we actually trust though?

[D]

Well, he was making. Remember now when he's giving this statement, the more he tells and the more accurate he tells, it locks down the promise not to prosecute him or give him any additional time for it. It was his get out of jail free card. So it's much more accurate if you read his book the Final Truth. And compared to what he said it, you know, before 20 years earlier. This is much more accurate. And the sled agents, I mean, if he said, I buried the body in such and such a place. They went out there and dug it up. He took them out there and showed them where it was. He corroborated in many ways what he says in this statement. 500 pages of it.

[B]

So you were a solicitor in South Carolina?

[D]

Yes.

[B]

What exactly is that job?

[D]

Same as district attorney. You're the prosecuting attorney. Okay. Solicitor is. Is a. Is a term that was used in South Carolina in colonial times. And remember now, in England, a solicitor is a lawyer. So there's several states that still use the term solicitor, but it's more of a colonial term that people continue to use. That's what we call them here.

[B]

Nice. And that's the same job that the Murdoch family had, right? Not Alex, but his parent, his dad and his grandfather.

[D]

His great grandfather. His grandfather and his dad, yes.

[B]

Did you know them?

[D]

Absolutely. I knew his grandfather, Buster. The original Buster. Not the original Buster, but the Buster who was in. When I got sworn in as an assistant DA in 1975, Buster Murdoch was sort of the granddad of all Swissers in the state. I mean, everybody known him. He was famous for his courtroom drama, antics, whatever. And of course, the Murdoch firm, which was much smaller at the time, was renowned for the civil verdicts they got in in that part of the state back then. This. The solicitor DA could also have a private civil practice. So not only was he prosecuting cases, he was trying civil cases and, and, and doing very, very well. He was very good in the courtroom. And his son Randolph was the solicitor or D A down there when I was a solicitor or D A in Columbia, where I'm from. So we got to know each other really well. I never knew Alec because he was the son of Randy. I knew the. His brother Randy, who was older than he was, because I'd met him a couple times. He's still a kid. When I was the D A, I mean, you know, so. But the way I got into the case, the Murdoch case, was that Paul Murdoch, which who would have been Alex's son, Randolph's grandson, was charged in a homicide involving a boat.

[B]

Mallory Beach.

[D]

Mallory Beach. And when Alec talked to his dad about who would you get to represent him and who knew me well, said, you need to get to carpooling. So I got involved. I got Jim Griffin involved. And we for a year worked on the Palmer Dog case involving the death Mallory Beach.

[B]

And what happened with that? He Was convicted, right?

[D]

No, no, no. He got killed before we went to court.

[B]

He got killed before he went to court. That's right. And he was. And then you then represented his father and obviously he was guilty and he got the death penalty as well. Alex Murdaugh, correct? No, no, he's just. Life in prison.

[D]

Yes. So let me, let me back up just a little bit. Alec, Maggie, his wife, Paul's mother, and Paul came to this office where I'm sitting right now every couple weeks during a one year period while we're trying to get ready for the trial in the Mallory beach case. And so I spent time with them, watch them, observe them, watch the interactions. And so the night that, the night that Paul was murdered along with Maggie, Alec reached out to us and actually Jim Griffin, my co counsel on the Paul case, an old friend of mine, went down to Moselle the next day. I couldn't go and, and met with Alec and law enforcement officers. Alec was convicted of Maggie and Paul's murders and got life. Now was it technically, could it have been a death penalty case? Yes. The Attorney General's office chose not to go for the death penalty. I will also tell you that we were unaware, but obviously became aware that al there were two issues that we were unaware of. One was Alec had stolen about $12 million from his clients. Yeah, nobody knew that. That we found out when everybody else found out and he pled guilty to that, by the way. He's quite guilty and gotten sentenced by the federal authorities. He can't get out. Probably served 25 or 30 years on that. So the, the murder convictions. However, we were following a brief in a couple three weeks. Our reply brief to the prosecutor's brief. I think we have a significant chance of getting a new trial based on if nothing else, the corka court's conduct during this trial. The uncontradicted evidence is she spoke to jurors during the trial in such a way that that indicated that they should not believe Alex when he testified and, and that, that, that she felt he was guilty. And you can't do that. A cork of court, a court official can't do that. Nobody should do that. But a court official can, number one. Number two, the uncontradicted testimony at her at the hearing we had on after discovered evidence was she told several people, her employees and others that she was writing a book about the Murdoch trial and that it would she could sell more books if there was a guilty verdict and she wanted to buy a house up on the lake. So yeah, I Mean motive. And we believe that the judge that heard that hearing applied the wrong legal standard and that we'll get a new trial based on that, if nothing else.

[B]

So, yeah, Murdoch was found guilty. You don't think he was guilty?

[D]

I don't think he. I don't think he killed Maggie and Paul.

[B]

You don't think he killed Maggie and Paul? Is there any suspects that lead to what that would be?

[D]

There are in my mind. There are others, but. But, but if you look at the testimony in the trial and the evidence, when the police got there that night, they decided Alec did it because he got dead wife, dead kid. And by the way, when they show up, he's holding a shotgun. Okay. Not the gun involved in any of the. Any of the homicides, but he's holding a shotgun.

[B]

So Paul was shot with a shotgun, wasn't he?

[D]

Yeah, but not that shotgun.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

You know, shotgun shells make extractor marks. Well, a. It was the wrong gauge, the one he was carrying, as opposed to what Paul was shot to. They also make extractor marks when the shell is ejected, which are unique and can be compared by ballistics. Suffice it to say, he had gotten the shotgun from the house after he found the bodies, thinking somebody might still be around. But when the police got there, they immediately, we believe, based on what we saw, decided it was him and they were not going to investigate. They took no DNA, no fingerprints from the feed room where Paul was killed. When the. When the fire chief got there, he saw the tire tracks leading from the murder scene going back on a dirt road back to the highway. He went to the investigating agent, said, you need to block this off. We need to, you know, somebody needs to get castings or whatever you photographs so you can compare them to other cars. They didn't do that. Law enforcement, about five minutes obliterated those. The. There was a number of forensics things they didn't do. And here's Keith key point. Our expert and their expert testified whoever shot Paul shot him in the head.

[A]

Head.

[D]

There's no question that, that the gas. It had to be a contact wound because the gas exploded his head. His brain literally shot out of his head, hit the ceiling in that feed room and fell at his feet. Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

Whoever did that would have been. Would have had massive amounts of blood and brain tissue embedded in their hair and their face and their clothes, their shoes. It would have. You couldn't have just gotten in the shower, washed it off and taken. They, they. I mean, it'd be embedded. You might even have blinded yourself. 45 minutes after the, the time the police say that the murder or the sledge said the murder was committed, Alec is walking up to his mom's house. No blood. No blood at the house. They check the showers. No blood in the, in the, in the, in the drain? No. No blood on clothes? No. And they know he wrote down in a golf cart and back. No blood on the golf cart. I mean it's. And here's another two other pieces of evidence. One is, and this is sort of an interesting story, Alec was driving a GMC vehicle that night from the house at Moselle to his mom's.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And that's how he got there. That's what he drove from work. In the GMA gmc, there is a black box just like any car. And with that black box you can, if you have access to it, you can determine where it's been driven, how fast it was driven. It's got GPS in it, so you see exact times and movements. Sled tried to get GMC to, or whatever, whoever makes it, the, the Suburban, I guess it was a suburb. To give them or to download the contents. Apparently it's difficult to. If you don't have the exact equipment or code, you can't get in. And, and they never, and, and GMAC never. GMC never responded during the trial. Apparently the wife of one of the major officers at GMC was watching the trial and heard that testimony. They won't cooperate with us. She apparently called her husband, chewed his ass out, and the next day we get a call from during the trial saying, you're going to have the stuff, you'll have the download tomorrow. So in the middle of the trial we get this download. And the download shows that, that Alec drove that vehicle to the house at, at Moselle, parked it and then when he left. And it would have been after the murders at the exact time Alec was cranking his car to leave to go see his mom. Maggie's phone is being thrown out on the side of the road. We had an expert testify it showed motion and then it stopped. And it didn't have any other motion till it was found the next day. Okay, it's being thrown out on the side of the road while he's a half a mile away cranking his car. I mean, it's extraordinary. I mean that piece of evidence shows at the minimum someone else was involved. Yeah, something else is involved. At the maximum, it ain't him. The state came up with some jack leg expert after we put our expert testimony up, who wasn't Qualified to do it. And it's one of the grounds for appeal. I believe that, that, that and I believe there's a drug connection. Alec bought millions of dollars worth of oxy. Not sure all it was oxy through his, his so called cousin, Eddie Smith.

[B]

Yeah. Because two days after he, he went into rehab for opioids. Correct.

[D]

Absolutely. And clearly, if you look at the records, he was horribly addicted to opioids. But I think what you'll find is that the forensic evidence, if you, I mean, the jury heard two weeks of how he stole money from orphans and disabled people and, and you know, amputees and stuff. Once they heard all that, he was cooked.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

I don't care what evidence we had or they didn't have, that won't happen in a retrial.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, there's lots of, there's lots of crazy issues around the Murdoch family. Also though, have you, have you ever represented anybody? I'm not saying this is it, but have you ever represented someone that you knew was guilty and still represented him as a defense attorney?

[D]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Look, let me, let me, let me explain this to you. I'm a lawyer, okay? Now if I'm a prosecutor, my, my goal, my sworn ethical duty is to see that justice is done. That means you don't hide evidence. You don't put a witness up that you know is going to lie because you bought his testimony because he's got trouble. You do everything that you ethically should do to see that justice is done. If you have a reasonable doubt about the guilt of the guy you're prosecuting, you don't prosecute him, you dismiss the case. Done that many, many times. When you're a defense attorney, your duty is to represent your client with these caveats. You don't fabricate evidence, you don't help if your client comes in and you see this rarely, but if your client comes in and says, I did it in my mind, that's fine. You don't put, you can't put him on the stand to say he didn't do it. And if he insists on doing that, you call him to the stand, he gives his story, you don't ask him a single question, and in final argument, you don't argue his story. I mean, those are the rules. And if you do that, you're representing people. And you know, I've seen the system for 50 years, it's a great system if everybody plays by the rules and the rule of law. And we hear a lot about that today, the rule of Law keeps all of us free. If people play by the rule of law, the idea is not winning or losing. This isn't the football game.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Okay. This is. This is about seeing there's a system that's been constructed, and I think a great system, our American criminal and civil justice system is great. And. And I like it. I love it. I've worked through it for 50 years, both civil and criminal. And these people, a lot of people say, how can you represent somebody you know is guilty? Well, because they, they look. John Adams.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Second president, United States, represented the six British soldiers who.

[B]

The Boston Massacre.

[D]

Yeah, Boston Massacre. Four were acquitted, two were convicted. But he wasn't. Whether he liked him or disliked him, it's not whether he believed in what they stood for. He was a lawyer, and he was going to do his job. Abraham Lincoln represented 20 people accused of murder. That's what I mean, he was a criminal defense lawyer.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Before he was president. So, you know, it. It's not. How do you represent somebody who's. You think. I mean, you don't know they're guilty. They say they may even say they're guilty. But you make the system work. It's about, can the state prove the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? That's the standard. That's the constitutional standard. And if you're accused of somebody of something, you want to make sure everybody presumes you didn't do it, and you get the benefit of. Of every reasonable doubt. And that's what it's about.

[B]

What was it like defending someone while being judged on a mass scale by the media?

[D]

Well, again, I've been doing this so long that the judgment of outside people or the media and the only. What I've heard consistently from everybody I've talked to and everything I've watched, even Nancy Grace, I say even Nancy Grace, was that we did our job. That's the. The highest compliment I can get. Now, did I get just horrible emails from people around the country? You know, my favorite still is, how can you represent that guilty son of a bitch? I hope you die of ass cancer. Cancer.

[B]

It's prostate cancer. Please.

[D]

Why did they feel compelled to sit down and spew this vitriol, this hate towards me? I mean, they need therapy or something. Something's going on there. It's. They're the problem, not me.

[B]

Well, I really appreciate you sitting down with me, Dick. Dick Harpoulian, former senator of South Carolina. I really appreciate you coming in. Pick up the book. Dig Me a Grave. It comes out December 16th. Get it for the the true crime junkie in your family for Christmas. They'll love it. I really. You were amazing. I'd love to talk to you more again sometime about the Alex Murdoch case when we we're gonna do a big episode about that at some point. And I would love to to talk to you again if it's possible.

[D]

Super, super love to do it. Hey, thank you.

[B]

Thank you very much, sir. You take care of yourself.

[C]

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