Strange Customs: An Interview with Sasha Sagan

Summary

Last Podcast On The Left: Episode Summary

Episode: Strange Customs: An Interview with Sasha Sagan

Release Date: December 27, 2024
Host: The Last Podcast Network
Guest: Sasha Sagan, Author of Four Small Creatures: Such as We and Host of the podcast Strange Customs

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1. Introduction to Sasha Sagan

The episode kicks off with Henry Zabowski and Ed Larson introducing their special guest, Sasha Sagan. The hosts express excitement about her presence, highlighting her work as an author and podcast host. Sasha Sagan warmly engages with the hosts, appreciating the introduction and sharing her connection to her renowned parents, Andrea and Carl Sagan.

Notable Quote:

• Sasha Sagan [02:35]: "Hello. It's so nice to be with you both. Thanks for that hilarious and charming introduction."

2. Being the Daughter of Carl Sagan

The conversation delves into Sasha's relationship with her father's legacy. She emphasizes that her worldview and creative endeavors are deeply influenced by her parents' work, particularly Carl Sagan's contributions to science and literature.

Notable Quotes:

• Sasha Sagan [02:54]: "A lot of my work and definitely my worldview is based on my parents' work. So I feel like it's part of my identity."
• Henry Zabowski [03:04]: "Do people immediately assume, obviously, I know you're a genius because I was reading your essays. You know, you're very smart."

3. Conspiracies, Religion, and the Human Psyche

Sasha explores the intersection between conspiracy theories and religion, suggesting that both stem from humanity's discomfort with uncertainty. She posits that the need to find explanations, even unsettling ones, fills a psychological void when faced with the unpredictable nature of the future.

Notable Quotes:

• Sasha Sagan [05:45]: "There is this correlation between conspiracy theories and so much of the history of religion because we are so uncomfortable not knowing."
• Sasha Sagan [07:08]: "It's as much of a faith as anything else because you kind of believe that like a faith in the deep state means that there's a daddy somewhere making sure that there's a plan."

4. Exploring Human Customs and Rituals

Sasha discusses the concept of customs from an anthropological perspective, inspired by her father's thought experiments about explaining human behavior to an extraterrestrial observer. She underscores the importance of rituals in providing structure and meaning, especially in a secular context.

Notable Quotes:

• Sasha Sagan [08:07]: "If you were an anthropologist from somewhere else, how would you explain, you know, marriage? Anything from rituals around birth to April Fool's Day or Halloween."
• Sasha Sagan [09:56]: "It's about processing change, right? Like someone's alive and then they are not alive. How do we make sense of that?"

5. Secular Alternatives to Religious Rituals

The discussion shifts to secular approaches to marking significant life events and seasonal changes. Sasha emphasizes the creation of meaningful rituals without relying on religious infrastructure, highlighting celebrations like the winter solstice as examples.

Notable Quotes:

• Sasha Sagan [12:53]: "I do everything. We do Hanukkah...and we do Christmas stuff too. And then the other thing that we do is the winter solstice."
• Sasha Sagan [13:40]: "Tomorrow, no matter what, the days are gonna start getting longer again. And that is unpleasant. But because of the axial tilt of the earth, we will have more sunlight and eventually return to summer."

6. The Afterlife and Belief Systems

Ed Larson poses personal questions about the afterlife, referencing his father's skepticism and his own spiritual conflicts. Sasha responds by outlining her evidence-based stance, expressing skepticism toward afterlife claims without empirical support.

Notable Quotes:

• Ed Larson [22:46]: "There's nothing to me. Like, my dad died twice. The first time he died, he had no idea that anything ever happened."
• Sasha Sagan [22:58]: "I need evidence. I don't believe in an afterlife. I don't believe in anything paranormal because without evidence, how can we possibly know what is real?"

7. Science, Evidence, and the Universe

Sasha elaborates on her scientific perspective, emphasizing the importance of evidence and the self-correcting nature of science. The conversation touches upon the possibility of alien life and whether scientific principles are universal or subject to variation across the cosmos.

Notable Quotes:

• Sasha Sagan [28:07]: "Science is a method to understand. And whatever we were to encounter somewhere else, surely it would be amazingly different. But the pursuit of understanding it would still be science."
• Sasha Sagan [30:32]: "Science is not a set of beliefs. It's a method that constantly tests and updates our understanding based on new evidence."

8. Astrology and Its Place in Modern Society

The hosts challenge Sasha on the validity of astrology, leading to an engaging discussion. Sasha dismisses astrology due to the lack of empirical evidence but acknowledges the human desire to find meaning and connection through such practices.

Notable Quotes:

• Ed Larson [34:56]: "Does astrology hold any merit? Am I the same as everyone born on October 5th?"
• Sasha Sagan [35:34]: "Astrology is not supported by evidence. How would the positions of planets and stars at your birth impact your personality?"

9. The Future of Religion and Secularism

Sasha shares her insights on the evolving landscape of religion and secularism. She suggests that increasing secularism might paradoxically lead to heightened fanaticism as individuals seek new forms of community and identity outside traditional religious frameworks.

Notable Quotes:

• Sasha Sagan [38:32]: "The rise of normalizing a lack of religion can make more fanaticism because sometimes you dig your heels in deeper when you feel there's a threat."
• Sasha Sagan [40:18]: "Religion is a mirror. You can find reasons to feed the poor or to feel superior to others. It depends on how you choose to use it."

10. Building Community Without Religion

Concluding the episode, Sasha emphasizes the importance of community and belonging without relying on religious institutions. She advocates for involvement in causes, volunteering, and social justice as means to foster meaningful connections and collective purpose.

Notable Quotes:

• Sasha Sagan [46:01]: "When we can look at ourselves as belonging to the planet, we can overcome superficial and meaningless differences."
• Sasha Sagan [47:11]: "For those of us who are not religious, we have to build that sense of community for ourselves through causes we believe in."

Closing Remarks

The episode wraps up with the hosts thanking Sasha Sagan for her insightful contributions. Sasha shares her social media handles and encourages listeners to check out her book and podcast, Strange Customs, even though she's currently on a break from active hosting.

Notable Quotes:

• Henry Zabowski [50:37]: "Please buy the book for Four Small Creatures: Such as We by Sasha Sagan."
• Sasha Sagan [51:22]: "I'm Sasha Sagan on Instagram and I just had the best time talking to you both. Thank you."

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Key Insights and Conclusions

• Human Need for Meaning: The episode underscores humanity's intrinsic need to create meaning through rituals, whether religious or secular, to navigate the complexities of life and change.

• Science vs. Belief: Sasha Sagan advocates for a science-based worldview, emphasizing the importance of evidence and the adaptability of scientific understanding in the face of new discoveries.

• Community Without Religion: In an increasingly secular world, building community through shared causes and social engagement is vital for fostering a sense of belonging and collective purpose.

• Critique of Extremism: The discussion highlights how both religious and secular extreme beliefs can stem from a desire for identity and control, urging a more inclusive and evidence-based approach to understanding the world.

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Useful Resources

• Sasha Sagan on Instagram: @sashasagan
• Book: Four Small Creatures: Such as We by Sasha Sagan
• Podcast: Strange Customs (Currently on a break, but available for past episodes)

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This episode offers a profound exploration of human customs, belief systems, and the quest for meaning, guided by Sasha Sagan's unique perspective as the daughter of Carl Sagan and a thoughtful commentator on modern society.

Transcript

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[Henry Zabowski]

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[Ed Larson]

Oh, absolutely.

[Henry Zabowski]

Very special. Will we rise to the occasion?

[Ed Larson]

I hope so.

[Henry Zabowski]

You better.

[Ed Larson]

I have to.

[Henry Zabowski]

I'm looking at you, Eddie.

[Ed Larson]

Well, this is. Finally, I get a skeptic.

[Henry Zabowski]

Yeah, it's nice. It's not another crazy person.

[Ed Larson]

I roll in here, just talk to someone, and pretend to believe what they're saying.

[Henry Zabowski]

Yeah, it's not normal. Like, you know, you don't have to roll in. We don't have to go, like, yes, of course, vampires. They are unignored constituency, and they really do. Where is Kamala on this? Thank you, our wonderful, intrepid Patreon listeners. I am Henry Zabowski. I'm sitting here with Ed Larson. Hello. And we. We have a very special guest today. Someone again, we talked right before. Very bright, very smart. I don't know what we're gonna do with this person.

[Ed Larson]

Oh, you're just scared that she's gonna tell you aliens aren't real.

[Henry Zabowski]

I am because of my. My little soul can't handle it. But this is somebody I really like. We're so excited to have the author of four small creatures such as we and the host of the podcast Strange Customs. I'm really excited because it's really cool. This is one of those things it's a part of the world I'm super fascinated about, like, do what we do. We have author, creative mind, podcast host Sasha Sagan.

[Sasha Sagan]

Hello. It's so nice to be with you both. Thanks for that hilarious and charming introduction.

[Henry Zabowski]

It's. We're trying. We are trying, obviously. Also, I don't want to always be like famous daughter, but you know, like you're the famous daughter of someone is the saddest. You know, I mean, but it's not. Not when it's like this.

[Ed Larson]

I mean.

[Sasha Sagan]

Well, thank you. I do. I mean, a lot of my work and definitely my worldview is based on my parents work. So I feel like it's part of my identity.

[Henry Zabowski]

Oh, yeah. Cause what do you can, what can you do? Because, like, Carl Sagan is your father.

[Ed Larson]

If I follow my father's work, I'd be in prison.

[Henry Zabowski]

Yeah, exactly. If I followed my father's work, I'd be drunk at hogs and heifers right now.

[Sasha Sagan]

Well, you're both doing great, so we're doing our best.

[Henry Zabowski]

So it's like, can I actually, we'll just start with that. Like, as the daughter of Carl Sagan, like, does it start like, like, do people immediately assume, obviously, I know you're a genius because I was reading your essays. You know, you're very smart.

[Sasha Sagan]

Way too kind, but you're very smart.

[Henry Zabowski]

But it's the idea of like, like people, when they roll up, are they like nervous or are they like, like. Or is it all like, what's Daddy like? What was daddy like? Or is it all like, because you want to find the heart of the man. You sound like, you know, this wonderful, benevolent. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like the sweet man. Like, so what's it like having to walk around with it? Is it a burden or a. Or a wonderful treasure?

[Sasha Sagan]

Oh, it's a wonderful treasure. I mean, I feel so lucky. I mean, both my parents, my mom, Andrea and my dad collaborated on books and essays and the original Cosmos series in the 80s, which my mom has written and produced and directed the new version of with Neil DeGrasse Tyson.

[Henry Zabowski]

And I didn't even know that. I had no idea, like, how fully involved she was. And the fact that like hunting for it for years, trying to get the Cosmos remake get.

[Ed Larson]

Wow.

[Sasha Sagan]

Yes, absolutely. No, she's amazing. And both my parents, I mean, you know, in terms of, like, is it a burden? It's. It's really not. I feel so lucky. I lost, you know, my dad was amazing and he was a really fun, great dad. And I lost him when I was 14. And so when I meet people who have questions about him or read his work, like, you know, started reading his work a couple years ago when, or even weren't Even born in 1996, I feel this immense like, joy and gratitude that in this way, in this totally secular, real way he is living on. And no, I love talking about it. And my book is, you know, partly about growing up in that household and growing up with the worldview of, you know, that science is the pathway to not just understanding and like, not just to like reality, but to awe and wonder and joy and that spine tingling feeling that we are part of something larger than ourselves.

[Ed Larson]

So how does the government weather machine work then?

[Henry Zabowski]

Honestly? Let's get down to brass tax. No, you're science person. Why did Biden send hurricanes to Florida?

[Sasha Sagan]

Why would he do such a thing? No, I feel like, I mean, I feel like the. It's interesting because I think there is this correlation between, you know, the conspiracy theories and so much of the history of religion because we are so uncomfortable not knowing. It is torture for us. The future is so unrelenting with it's, you know, our inability to predict it. It's miserable. And I mean right now as we are, I don't know when this is going to air, but as we are in the lead up to the election, I mean, what's happening?

[Henry Zabowski]

What's going on right now?

[Sasha Sagan]

You're going to want to have a seat because it's really int. But I think that like just this discomfort with not knowing the answer to small and deep, profound questions, we humans, you know, we fill stuff in because even if it's something bad, even if it's something disturbing, we somehow are more comfortable with that than just the open space of a question.

[Ed Larson]

It drives me crazy because gray areas, you believe in the Bible and God's the ultimate weather machine. He flooded the earth, you know, apparently, you know, it destroyed everybody and they worship God. So if they believe that Biden flooded Florida, shouldn't they worship him?

[Henry Zabowski]

It's a long story.

[Sasha Sagan]

It's a web of meteorology.

[Henry Zabowski]

But I kind of feel like it's why we're at where we're at right now in terms of the temperament of the country, is that we, we track when we travel in the world of conspiracy theory all the time. And it is funny because it is as much of a faith as anything else because you kind of believe that like a faith in the deep state means that you believe that there's a daddy somewhere making sure that there's a plan.

[Sasha Sagan]

Exactly. And I think that if you're raised with a worldview that there is someone, a man in charge who makes decisions that you cannot possibly understand. And it seems like it's a bad thing, but maybe there's a good reason and you're not allowed to ask any questions and you just have to agree. It sets you up for all kinds of other ideologies.

[Henry Zabowski]

Yes. Now do you find that that's like what led you towards investigating the customs of humans?

[Sasha Sagan]

Yes, Well, I think it's a combination of two things.

[Henry Zabowski]

Like, what's a custom? Like, what do you mean by like a, like always, like, what do you call it?

[Sasha Sagan]

Like, so, like if you were to take like. So part of the reason I'm interested in this is because when I was a kid, my dad would like, love to do these thought experiments about, like, how would I, like, if I were to meet someone from, you know, another planet? How would I explain what we were doing and why we were doing it? And it was, and it's, and it was great because also when you're a child, you are kind of like, you know, you're new on Earth and you're still getting a hang of all these norms. And it's very easy once you become an adult, it becomes very blase about, well, that's just the way we do things. But when you're a child, you're like, well, why do we say something after someone sneezes but not after they burp or you know, like, why, why? Like, you know, it seems there's so. And then parents sometimes get very annoyed with the long list of why questions because then they have to ask themselves these. And so I loved always looking at the things we do from the outside. And so that's sort of the impetus for the Strange Customs podcast. Like, if you were an anthropologist from somewhere else, how would you explain, you know, marriage? Anything from like marriage and, you know, rituals around birth to like April Fool's Day or, you know, I mean, Halloween is a perfect example. I think it's that. And I'm also really interested in customs and traditions because as a non religious person, I still want to mark time and process change and I still, you know, want to grieve when someone dies and I got married and had a wedding and like when the seasons change, I want to have a celebration, but I don't have the infrastructure of religion. So how do we do that?

[Henry Zabowski]

There is a, I think there's a distinct difference between ritual and spirituality when it comes to our species.

[Sasha Sagan]

Right.

[Henry Zabowski]

Do you think it's connected? Do you think it's, there's a, like, we, as a, as a, like, like a primate, we must have rituals?

[Sasha Sagan]

No, I don't think we must, but I think that it gives us sometimes depending on the ritual, it's either the illusion of control. If it's the, if it's a ritual that we believe changes, something makes something happen or it's about processing change, right? Like someone's alive and then they are not alive. The thing, whatever this is, goes away. What, how do we make sense of that? How do we process this change? Or if you think about all the coming of age rituals around the world, right, Someone is a child and then like ah, all these chemicals come in and they're. That their voice changes and there's hair and then they're in a weird mood and everything things different suddenly and then they're an adult and like that threshold, we have to acknowledge that. And I think that, you know, when we sort of look at so many rituals around the world, when you peel back the first layer of like the local set design and costumes and script, we are almost always celebrating the same things and they are so often scientific phenomenon. Like puberty is like a biological change, right? The changing of the seasons. It has to do with the biology of the plants and it has to do with axial tilts of the earth, right. And all these holidays that fall around the solstices and equinoxes, it's because we're all, you know, we sometimes make up a different backstory, but we're all trying to process the same patterns and make sense of them and find the beauty in them and alleviate our fears.

[Henry Zabowski]

That's so fascinating. Do you think it would be better for young men to be left in the middle of the woods to try to come back instead of getting Jordan Peterson?

[Sasha Sagan]

I mean if those are the only.

[Ed Larson]

Two options, how about we take Jordan Peterson and leave him in the middle of the woods?

[Henry Zabowski]

If he comes back, then we have to keep him.

[Ed Larson]

Now I honestly. So my father was Jewish, my mother's Catholic, so I'm an atheist and. But I still love Christmas. I think Christmas is amazing. I love celebrating. I got a tree. But like sitting there and worshiping Jesus is insane to me. So it's.

[Henry Zabowski]

And it's boring.

[Ed Larson]

Yeah, it's just, I mean in general, I don't like people's birthday, you know, and so it's.

[Sasha Sagan]

And it's not even really his birthday. It's just co opted from the winter solstice. Roman stuff.

[Ed Larson]

Exactly. But so what do you do around the holidays? I know you were, you know, if you were raised, if you had to like identify as a religion, which I'm pretty. It's secular Jewish, correct?

[Sasha Sagan]

Yes, that's right. Yes. I mean my ancestors, when I do a DNA test, it's like 100. I think they can only say like 99.9%, but it's like Ashkenazi Jew. And I'm like, I know, but yes, you celebrate Hanukkah.

[Ed Larson]

Like what do you do as someone who doesn't really have faith?

[Sasha Sagan]

I do everything. So we do Hanukkah as a kind of like historical reenactment, you know, like, we do it in this way to say to our children, like, this is what your ancestors were doing for thousands of years. And see this thematic through line about the light and the darkness, the days in the northern hemisphere. And so we do this. And then my husband's family, my husband's also secular, but his family is historically Christian. And you know, my mother in law does a lot of fun Christmas stuff and we do that stuff too. And again, in the context of like, this is a way to enter to honor our ancestors. And you know, also because Christmas is so, I mean, it's so ubiquitous. It's like you have to really make a choice to not celebrate it, you.

[Henry Zabowski]

Know, and especially with kids, it's hard. It's hard to be like, we don't celebrate Christmas. Well, they have to more attractive at school too.

[Sasha Sagan]

Yeah, totally. And I mean, it's not like, I mean, it wouldn't be fair. It's just because, you know, my husband did grow up with Christmas, so it's like if I'm allowed to do my secular Hanukkah thing, we gotta do that too. And then the other thing that we do is the winter solstice. And it's very, not in like a witchy way, although I have a lot of, you know, no shade about that, but in a way of saying tomorrow, no matter what, the days are gonna start getting longer again. And right now it gets dark very early. And that is unpleasant. But because of the axial tilt of the earth and the way it goes around the sun, tomorrow I promise you, little by little, we will have more sunlight and eventually return to summer. And we do like, you know, a dinner and we celebrate that too. And I just think all the cultural stuff I love, you know, but I think getting to the part that is irrefutable and real and good, that like the days are going to start getting longer and that's amazing. Is worth celebrating.

[Henry Zabowski]

So you don't do the extended Santa lie?

[Sasha Sagan]

No, we do not do any Santa. I should say we do like a. We do gifts on Christmas, usually with my husband's family, but we do.

[Henry Zabowski]

They're straight from Jesus Christ.

[Ed Larson]

Santa drives me crazy.

[Sasha Sagan]

No middleman.

[Henry Zabowski]

No middleman. Straight from God.

[Ed Larson]

Yeah, just like Santa Claus. Is just like, putting the thought into all children that their parents are liars.

[Henry Zabowski]

But I also love the lie, though. There's a part of me that wants to continue the lie. I love the idea of going in and fuck that I bought the gifts.

[Ed Larson]

You know, like, it's like, this is daddy's money. You know, like, didn't fucking go out. Go onto the computer and find the Hot Wheels track.

[Henry Zabowski]

I just love fooling children.

[Sasha Sagan]

Sorry you can do that anytime soon. I feel so. It Honestly, strange customs. We did an episode about Santa, and it's called the Conspiracy, and it's with Nicole Richie, actually, and it's really funny. And, you know, this idea that, like, it is, like. I mean, don't. That maybe also sets children up to believe in conspiracies, because it is a. I mean, the idea that NORAD is, like, in on this lie is incredible.

[Henry Zabowski]

Tax dollars are spent.

[Sasha Sagan]

I mean, it's amazing how much effort we all collectively put in. And it's like, almost this. Like, one of the most taboo things is to, like, blow that up for children. And, like, don't worry. I don't go around being like, you know, that's bullshit. Like, when I pick my daughter up from second grade, don't worry.

[Henry Zabowski]

Ms. Sagan, we're actually going to have to ask you to please stop disseminating the power of pure information to the children. Okay.

[Sasha Sagan]

She's going to have to start taking the bus home. If you insist on showing us, what.

[Ed Larson]

Do you tell her? What do you do? You say that Santa isn't real, but keep the lie going for your classmates.

[Sasha Sagan]

No, I say everyone eventually finds out. I'm not gonna ever lie to you. But it's not for us to tell other children because their parents have a plan for when they're gonna find out. And you know what's funny, though, is there's another fictional character who I did kind of. I mean, luckily, my daughter's really skeptical, so it's now, like, this running joke, open secret. But I don't feel as strongly about, like, the Tooth Fairy as I do about Santa.

[Henry Zabowski]

Why is that? Why is the Tooth Fairy feels like the Tooth Fairy is even more ubiquitous than Santa.

[Sasha Sagan]

It's interesting because it's like. So the. The. The. The scholar that we interviewed about this on my podcast was saying that one of the big differences is everybody can picture Santa, but the Tooth Fairy is, like, very open to interpretation. And it's, like, not like a singular creature that, like, everybody agrees on. So it's sort of more. It doesn't Feel like this lie. It just feels like this, like, amorph joke. And it's also not like, oh, the magic is ruined when you find out that your mother put $2 under your pillow. You know what I mean?

[Henry Zabowski]

It's just like, just give me the money up front.

[Ed Larson]

Well, that's. It was also my introduction to money, to be honest with you. It was like the first time I made a job.

[Henry Zabowski]

Yeah.

[Sasha Sagan]

Yes. And it's the. I mean, if you want to talk about strange customs, it is the weirdest thing ever. I mean, imagine if it was not like, if we hadn't all grown up with it and you were reading in, like, an anthropology textbook about some dist. Tribe or island somewhere where when the children come of age and their teeth start falling out of their mouths, they put it under their pillow. And then, like, a mystical, like, spirit from the forest with wings comes and takes part of their body that has fallen out and leaves them. So, like, you know, leaves them Money? Yeah, the currency. The local currency.

[Ed Larson]

Who's the Tooth Fairy selling these teeth to?

[Henry Zabowski]

I mean, who benefits? No one just spends money. They're either looking for votes or they're looking for something else. They got something on you now.

[Sasha Sagan]

She's going to frame these children for crimes later, leaving their DNA at the scene. I don't.

[Henry Zabowski]

Oh, my God. The Tooth Fairy is Jeffrey Epstein. Kai Hasley asked, though, is it more of the Tooth Fairy for some reason? Is it more here in America or is it across the globe?

[Sasha Sagan]

I don't think it's. I mean, I have to do some research to tell you we haven't done a full Tooth Fairy episode yet, but that is something I really want to do. But, no, I. It's. I think it's definitely Western culture. I don't think it's global. I'm gonna look into it. This is a good question.

[Henry Zabowski]

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[Ed Larson]

Now, we've talked about Christmas and religion, and I. I really want to get your opinion on the afterlife. Your father famously said, I don't want to believe. I want to know.

[Sasha Sagan]

And.

[Ed Larson]

And so there is no. There is nothing to me. Like, my dad died twice. He. You know, the first time he died, he had no idea that anything ever happened. He's like, there's nothing.

[Sasha Sagan]

Nothing.

[Ed Larson]

And the second time, you know, it was very uneventful.

[Henry Zabowski]

Yeah, it was the. It was the last time he died.

[Ed Larson]

It was the last time he died. So it's. And a lot of people really, really want to believe in a life after death. Me, personally, it makes no sense to me, but yet I am on a. I'm on a. A very popular podcast. We talk about paranormal activity and ghosts a lot and stuff like that. And also my family is very spiritual. So I'm just kind of wondering where your opinion lies on a life after death. Death, A purgatory. The existence of ghosts. Like, I know there's 10 questions in there, but you could just wrap that up pretty good.

[Henry Zabowski]

That'd be great system and sort of kind of wrap that up.

[Sasha Sagan]

Oh, no. This is like my favorite thing to talk about. And no, Yeah, I mean, it's. It's 10 questions, but it's really one question. And so my perspective is, in order to believe, for me to believe something, I need evidence. I need real evidence. And so to say, when people say, do you believe in something, this is like. Like, the implication is like, is it what you like, your best guess, your hope? River. And my position is I. I don't believe in an afterlife. I don't believe in anything, you know, in the air quotes, like paranormal, because I. Without evidence, how can we possibly know what is just our hopes and our wishes and our confirmation bias or our fears and what is real? And I mean, that is just to say also, there are, you know, we are getting more information. That's the magic of science. But if any of this were real and there comes a day where it is proven true, it will be supported by some evidence. It will be. It will stand up to scrutiny. Right? There are lots of things we didn't understand in human history that now we understand. I mean, if you said, like, a few, you know, millennia ago, like, I believe that the moon controls the ocean, controls the tides. Right. That that could be like, Something like a person would say, yeah, totally. A what? A witch would say 100%. But then once you get gravity and like Newton, like kind of works out how this could work, it becomes real. And what I think is sort of the key is that can we still hold on to like the awe and enthusiasm and the sense of like, oh my God, holy shit, this is amazing and stunning and exhilarating and spine tingling about the stuff that we have evidence for that is real and hold out, just hold an open space for the stuff that could just be wishful thinking or fears or hopes or ancient rumors. And I just think, you know, like, the example I always give is there is a secret code in your blood that connects you to your ancestors that can solve mysteries that we did not know about like a few decades ago, you know, 60, 70 years ago. And that it can, like is, is like the key to answering so many questions. Reuniting lost family members, figuring out like all these, you know, history. And like, if you, by the time you're doing like your allele worksheets in middle school, DNA doesn't seem like this magical, mystical, thrilling thing. But I think it is. And so whatever things that we currently categorize as paranormal, you know, we have to just like hold an empty space until there's evidence because we humans are so inclined to fall into the traps of our own belief systems.

[Henry Zabowski]

And I do believe everything can eventually be chased down and charted. But I do think partially it's because the, would you say even the bandwidth, what you'd consider evidence also kind of expands with science and technology and understanding.

[Sasha Sagan]

Sure. And like the thing that my parents always told me that's so magnificent about science is it has this error correcting mechanism. Right. You're a better scientist if you prove that the conventional wisdom is wrong. If you can really prove it, like if you really, it can really stand up to scrutiny. And sometimes we believe things for centuries and then they end up being disproven. But like this system is our best bet because we're not that good at figuring out what's real and what's not. Historically, do you think that there's a.

[Henry Zabowski]

Standardized version of science across the universe itself?

[Sasha Sagan]

Like, like the universe, like beyond, like.

[Henry Zabowski]

If, let's say we go to another place. Right? Like, because I'm certain. Does this extend to like alien life? Like the idea that there's probably some for. Right. I mean, I don't know, we don't have the evidence. Right. So the idea of an alien race living on another planet, like live With a society that can think, we just. That's just kind of conjecture, technically. But where do you stand on it?

[Sasha Sagan]

You asked me about, like, when, like, people come, like, come up to me and, like, when I was a kid and people would come up to my dad, I mean, he would get that, like, in, like, airports and restaurants, like, Dr. Sagan, great to meet you. Like, do you believe in aliens?

[Henry Zabowski]

Aliens? Where they are?

[Sasha Sagan]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, like. And it's. And. And people really wanted to know, and they were genuinely. I mean, who wouldn't want to know? I mean, it was like, genuine curiosity.

[Henry Zabowski]

You're a smart guy. I'm a. Tell me what you think.

[Sasha Sagan]

Yeah, right. And I mean, this is like, before, like, social media or anything. And so you're just like, oh, my goodness, perfect person to ask this question. And he would say, I don't know. And they would say, oh, but what does your gut tell you? And he would say, well, I don't use my gut for this. I, you know, use my brain. And we just don't. And he would have loved. And I can't underscore this enough, he would have loved to have lived to see some evidence that there was life elsewhere in the universe. But he, like the quote that you just mentioned, he wanted. He didn't want to just fall back on his wishes and hopes. He wanted to really know. And so I think just like, holding that space open for not knowing. But your question about, like, is science uniform? Yeah.

[Henry Zabowski]

Like, do you think that if you go to another place, like, do you think that like, in another solar system and another galaxy, like, would physics change? Would our stuff change? Like, do. Or is the belief of science that there's, like, there is a running theme that would hold true or. So is it. Is it possible that, like, things could be entirely different in another part of the universe?

[Sasha Sagan]

I think things would be entirely different, But I think that if we think about, like. I mean, science as, like, the co. Like nature, the way we understand nature, the way the physical laws of nature exist, it's a. It's not a set of, like. It's not a list of, like, things to, like, figures and formulas. It's a method to understand. And whatever we were to encounter somewhere else, surely it would be, like, amazingly different. But whatever we were able to glean through evidence about what life or not life, existence, inanimate existence, maybe there was. Would be science. Yeah.

[Henry Zabowski]

Because I feel like almost in a way, that's not. That's not faith. You're looking for evidence, but almost in A way it feels like science has this kind of. There is a. The. There's a faith in the idea that this, like, our ideas of science will hold. Right. Maybe. Or you're testing it.

[Sasha Sagan]

No, I disagree. Because it's the fact that we're like. The goal is to constantly test it, and then when there's new information, change accordingly, is kind of, to me, the opposite of belief. Sometimes faith gets used. Yes. Like, sometimes faith gets used as, like. Like optimism or like, pos. Like having a good attitude. And, like, I'm all for that. You know what I mean? If it's like, oh, things look terrible, and it's like, have some faith. I mean, like, it could work out, that would be great. You know what I mean? Like, that is a different thing than the idea that no matter what you're presented with, no matter what evidence is brought your way, you will not waver. That is a different thing. And I feel like that is antithetical to science.

[Ed Larson]

Yeah. And so it's like a quest for truth and knowledge, kind of.

[Sasha Sagan]

Yeah.

[Ed Larson]

And it would change depending on what you were testing, you know, and what you learned, like. Yeah. What you. What is true on Earth wouldn't be true on Ramulon or whatever place doesn't exist.

[Henry Zabowski]

You know, so unless we do then find out that all science has, like, there's like, a bottom law. Like, there's, like, something that we're all connected to, which is what I think is the. The Literally the hope.

[Ed Larson]

Yeah.

[Henry Zabowski]

We hope that it would all, like. I feel like scientists would be. How do you. I'd say the term would be if they ended into another section of the universe and they're like, oh, no, it's a. The fuel stopped working. Yeah. Like, the stuff stopped working. We're screwed.

[Sasha Sagan]

Yeah, sure. Yes, totally. But if we could somehow, even with everything that we're used to from our planet and solar system not working, if we can somehow, then glean what's different, why it's different, what the, like, structure of it all is.

[Ed Larson]

Yeah.

[Sasha Sagan]

That pursuit would still be science.

[Ed Larson]

Yeah. Because you would have to find. Discover whatever new elements are in this different place and, like, whatever new gases that we have. No. Ever heard of, you know, exists in another place. You know, because it all doesn't exist in the bubble we call Earth.

[Henry Zabowski]

I agree.

[Sasha Sagan]

And I just. I just think it's like, no matter what. Like. Like, it's the When. If we ever get to go out into the universe and get some new gases, as you say, or any of the.

[Henry Zabowski]

We got to get new gases. I'm sick of these old ass gas.

[Sasha Sagan]

Number one thing, I'm brewing some of.

[Ed Larson]

My own right now.

[Sasha Sagan]

The but I think no matter what we find but it will just underscore how precious and rare this planet is.

[Ed Larson]

Yes, I agree completely.

[Zocdoc]

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[Ed Larson]

So we've been talking about outer space, going to other planets, stars and whatnot. I gotta ask just because it drives me crazy. Astrology. Does it hold? Oh my God, does it hold any merit? Like, am I the same as everyone born on October 5th? Like, it's just like, you know, he's.

[Henry Zabowski]

Such a libra about this. Like, honestly, as soon as he started talking about it I'm like oh, is the Libra talking?

[Sasha Sagan]

I have this same problem actually because I First of all, happy belated birthday.

[Henry Zabowski]

Because in Los Angeles. We have to talk in astrology.

[Sasha Sagan]

Yeah.

[Henry Zabowski]

I hope you understand that.

[Sasha Sagan]

Oh, no, I know. I wrote about this in my book and I've spent a lot of time in Los Angeles and I have the same problem because people are like, what sign are you? And I'm like, I'm a Scorpio. But I don't believe that there is any evidence to support astrology. And they're like, you're like, oh, of course.

[Henry Zabowski]

You would be intense about that.

[Sasha Sagan]

Yeah, totally.

[Henry Zabowski]

Why don't.

[Sasha Sagan]

Yeah. Start a huge argument about it. No, it's a huge problem, actually, that. I mean, is it a huge problem in the grand scheme of things? No, but I think. No, astrology does not. It's not supported by evidence. And how would that even work if it were? How would, like, that's the kind of the crux of all of this. Like, how would what planets and stars were in what, like, position above your. Like above the hospital when you were born have any impact on your personality? Like, how would that work? You know? And I think it's just. Yes.

[Ed Larson]

No, I'm like, my personality changes with a head injury. It doesn't matter where the stars are.

[Henry Zabowski]

Who knows? Maybe that could reveal your rising.

[Sasha Sagan]

But I think that the thing that I really. That I. The thing about astrology that really gets me is I think the desire for it, like, the hunger for it and the hunger for like, a lot of stuff in that genre, like crystals and things like that is because we do have this desire to be. To feel like we're part of the universe. And we do have that desire to feel, like, connected to the Earth and feel that, like. And I think especially if people are not religious at. There is that hunger to feel connected to one another and to the grandeur and majesty of the universe. And I think that that is valid, but I just don't think astrology or crystals are the road there.

[Henry Zabowski]

Yeah. You're just destroying the market here.

[Sasha Sagan]

Okay.

[Henry Zabowski]

There's a lot of stuff that we got. A lot of stuff is hinging on astrology here.

[Ed Larson]

Finally.

[Sasha Sagan]

It was so convincing. They're gonn to close up all their little crystal shops in Los Angeles.

[Henry Zabowski]

Just start crying. Yeah, yeah. Just burning all their tapestries, you know, throwing the incense out.

[Sasha Sagan]

Yeah. Open up a. Just a science library instead.

[Ed Larson]

So as. Because I'm so fascinated by the concept of religion and why people are getting so crazy about it, it seems like the radicalness of religion is on the rise. Rights. But also it seems like atheism or. Or sometimes listed as just none, when you have to click a box is also I think the third religion in the world right now. Do you think it's going to continue to rise as, as time goes or do you think it's going to go down?

[Henry Zabowski]

It seems to be kicking back kinda in a way.

[Sasha Sagan]

Well, I do think the rise of like sort of normalizing a lack of religion, I do think that it can make more fanaticism because sometimes you dig your heels in deeper when you feel like there is a threat. And I think that, you know, we listen. Even the most devout, most religious, traditional person alive today is doing things very differently than their ancestors were doing a thousand years ago. Right. Nobody is like, like perfectly following this ancient thing. We are all changing and adapting and pulling things out of ancient texts that seem important and letting other things that were maybe the headline fall by the wayside and sort of just, you know, like anything, traditions, rituals, religions, it. We have to, they have to mutate in order to survive. And so I think change is inevitable. And it's not so much a scale to me of like more religious or less religious necessarily. It's that it's going to change over time. It's going to reflect the moment. What are the changes we want to make? What is the future that you want to create for the next generation, whether you're secular or religious. And I think that if you're holding on like white knuckle, holding on to, to elements of a religion that divide, that belittle the people that are different, that cause violence, then you are not helping. I'm going to just go out on a limb here and say I don't like it.

[Henry Zabowski]

And those time, honestly the, even the core of the religion that they are believing in doesn't actually reflect what they're doing. So you know, like obviously look at the Christian nation state they want to build. It is specifically like, you know, it seemed that Jesus was a easygoing guy, you know what I mean? The whole thing, live and let live thing, all that kind of horseshit.

[Sasha Sagan]

He talked about how nice he was, hungry. Yes.

[Henry Zabowski]

Taking care of the sick, all that kind of stuff it seems.

[Sasha Sagan]

Including people who are outcasts. Yes. That stuff doesn't seem like it's so centered. That has not been the main headline in the Christian nationalist movement. And I have a bone to pick with them about that.

[Henry Zabowski]

I really do. I have had it up to here with the Christian crystal fascist nationalist thing.

[Sasha Sagan]

We're not on the same page. No. Yeah, I, I mean it's a mirror right. Religion, like anything it's a mirror. You want a reason to feed the poor. You want a reason to do, you know, acts of kindness, to build a hospital. You can find it. You want a reason to feel like you're better. Your little group is the one good group, and everybody else can just suffer. Then you can find that too. And I just think more and more it's. It's. Well, maybe always, but I think I see a lot of it is about identity and not about theology. It is. I mean, Right. People who, like, identify really strongly with a group but maybe haven't done the reading. You know, I think that is it. And that goes back to something very ancient and very tribal and like that, you know, we. Maybe there was some evolutionary advantage tens of thousands of years ago to be like, we live in a band of 20 or 30 people and we gotta just survive and we can't trust anybody.

[Henry Zabowski]

Else, but we got each other's backs no matter what.

[Sasha Sagan]

Yeah, right. But now our village is 8 billion people and counting. And we gotta start looking at it that way because the differences between the groups. And like I said, like, the set design and the script and the costume is superficial, and it is totally unimportant. And that is the greatest gift of the, like, cosmic perspective is when we get to zoom out and we're not down here seeing, you know, where the world feels really big and our, you know, the differences feel really extreme. But when we can look at, you know, the image of the Earth from space and we see that all these borders are artificial and that if anyone were to show up from anywhere else, we would be indistinguishable, you know, one group to another. And that I think that we. It's. We have to just, you know, use this amazing gift that science has given us to see ourselves as on this lifeboat, together in this vast ocean, to realize that the little things that people are willing to kill each other over are just absolutely superficial and meaningless.

[Ed Larson]

Yes. I always go back to a conversation I had with a religious leader when I was a kid, and they. Not only a kid, teenager, but whatever. And I remember them saying, like, if you don't believe, then what actually keeps you from sinning? And now that I look back on it, you know, I. I said morality. But. Like the. But. But I also think that, like, your concept of a sin is probably different than my concept of a sin because, like, you think that I can't say the word God if I'm not saying it in the right way.

[Henry Zabowski]

You know, Meanwhile, like, the rampant abuse throughout the entire Fucking church system that it's like, would you guys seem to like, like, that's cool. Yeah.

[Ed Larson]

But if you have to believe in hell to not steal or beat somebody.

[Henry Zabowski]

It doesn't stop them from doing bad things, does it? Right.

[Sasha Sagan]

But also, that's such a reveal because it's saying, I would, like, be a serial killer if I wasn't worried that somebody was watching. You know, that's the really scary thing about that argument to me is because it's like the idea of getting caught or getting in trouble or getting your, like, comeuppance later on is the reason you're not doing, like, really bad things. And then about the. All the little other things that they don't, like all the little sexual infractions of better. Like, with. Between consenting adults or by yourself or like all the things that they don't like. It's like, well, then if no one's hurt, like two people getting married and just because they have the same parts, you know, like, it's like, well, then we don't need. You don't need to not do that. Like, if no one's being hurt, then it's okay. And if someone. And if someone is being hurt, you should have another method, another system internally that says this is bad. Besides being, you know, on the, you know, CCTV of the universe, the Lord itself.

[Henry Zabowski]

Yeah. Watching you, I just do it. It's just so fun. I think that what you're saying is correct. It's really because we. The. The concept of people want a group to belong to. Because it's scary out there.

[Sasha Sagan]

Totally.

[Henry Zabowski]

It's scary out there, and it's hard. And I think that people are willing to join a group. You know, what we're seeing in current American politics, which is this idea of, like, the. For one side, the barrier to entry is extremely low. All you have to do is show up and they kind of accept you, no matter what spectrum of hatred you bring to the fold. You know what I mean? They're kind of happy almost. They're like, look, we got a new type of hate. Wow, look how diverse our haters, I think, which is truly incredible. Like, honestly, in a way of how many spectrums of hate there is and. And how they can find community. Why can't we on the other side?

[Sasha Sagan]

Well, I just. I mean, I think there is, like. I mean, I do think there is community. And like, I think that when we can look at ourselves as belonging to the planet, I think we can. You know, and the thing that I really admire about religion Even though I'm not religious, and I am critical of it in a lot of ways is the sense of community and the sense of belonging and having a group that comes together when, you know, times are tough and. And. And celebrates when things are going well. And I think for those of us who are not religious, like, we have to build that for ourselves. And I think being in. One of the best ways to get that feeling is being involved in causes that you believe in and volunteering and, like, you know, social justice, doing things to make things more how you hope them to be. And it sort of also fills that need of, like, okay, this is my. My group, and we go like, stuff envelopes together or whatever, canvas. And I think there's something really to be said for that, because we do want to feel like we're part of something, but, you know, it just. It shouldn't be something that is. We're part of something that makes us superior to everybody else.

[Ed Larson]

Yes, I agree with that. It was hard for me a long time because my mom was, you know, without my father for a long time, and. And she would go to church all the time and give them money and stuff. I'm like, well, you're just giving them, you know, your hard earned money is driving me crazy. But then, like, the entertainment in me is like, oh, that's just the price of admission for the show.

[Henry Zabowski]

Well, that's how I kind of felt, too. I was obsessed with being a priest as a little boy, and it was really just because.

[Sasha Sagan]

Really?

[Henry Zabowski]

Oh, yeah. But it was because I realized over time, it was because he had guaranteed time. The priest had an hour every week where everybody had to show up and believe everything that that guy had to say, and he could say whatever he wanted. And then eventually realized, like, oh, I could be a comedian.

[Ed Larson]

Yeah.

[Henry Zabowski]

Like, I don't need this power, you know, Like, I could do.

[Sasha Sagan]

And you can do it more than an hour a week.

[Henry Zabowski]

And, oh, yeah, look at me now. All I do is.

[Sasha Sagan]

Yeah, yeah. And you don't have to learn Latin or whatever, so that's good.

[Henry Zabowski]

Not unless we're trying to break into Vatican City Podcast Merka, which has honestly been very difficult. Yes, it is so hard to get into the Papacy podcast now world.

[Sasha Sagan]

It's mainly just one guy who's kind of controlling.

[Henry Zabowski]

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[Ed Larson]

Now, I got to ask this question. Just because you're here and Henry's here. Henry fancies himself a Satanist. And what does that. When you hear that, what do you think so My.

[Sasha Sagan]

My understanding. And you mean, you know, you'll have to tell me if I'm wrong, is that. But it's there. It is a subversive belief system. And it is like. I mean, my. I feel like one of the things that I know most about the Satanist is the ways in which they have really worked within the legal system to sort of counteract some of the Christian nationalist moves and say, oh, well, then can we go to the public school and hand out our flyers too? And sort of leading us to question how the ways in which our society favors one belief system over the others. And I don't know, I heard someone say, like, you know, that Satanists don't really believe in Satan.

[Henry Zabowski]

They don't. The whole point of Satanism is that it's. It is an edge Lord, political position. I. I am a Satanist and I believe in that. The idea that, like, you're just supposed to remind everybody, like, yes, you know, the church needs the devil. Devil, you know, like, that's the whole. There's like a whole thing here where, like, there's a whole side of this story that's not being told, which is this. This serpent gave them the ability to be wise. Like it gave humans the ability to not. Because that's the idea. They were living in a fantasy world and they were living in the Garden of Eden, which is essentially a really nice cage. And then the devil came and released.

[Sasha Sagan]

24 hour a day surveillance.

[Henry Zabowski]

Yeah, yeah. And then we gave them all. We gave people autonomy. But then that's the problem, isn't it? And then it's been the problem ever since.

[Sasha Sagan]

Here we are.

[Henry Zabowski]

Thank you. So this has been wonderful.

[Ed Larson]

Sasha, you're a delight.

[Henry Zabowski]

This is wonderful.

[Sasha Sagan]

Thank you. Same to you both, please. I just enjoyed this so much.

[Henry Zabowski]

Thank you. Please buy the book for small creatures such as we by Sasha Sagan. Anything you want to leave people on any. Anything they want. Any socials. I know you. You must love TikTok. You must love social media.

[Sasha Sagan]

I am very nearly 42 years old, so I don't think I'm allowed on TikTok.

[Henry Zabowski]

Oh, no, no, we're running it. It's not good out there. No. Millennials are sadly in charge of TikTok. It's not good.

[Sasha Sagan]

That's even worse. Okay. No, but I am on Instagram. I am. I'm Sasha Sagan on Instagram and I just had the best time talking to you both. Thank you.

[Henry Zabowski]

Thank you. And go check out the podcast Strange Customs because it's still out. Right? Cuz, are you still, you still hosting it actively?

[Ed Larson]

Just head.

[Sasha Sagan]

No, I'm on a little break right now, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I want to come back to it. I. Yeah, I, I really enjoy doing it. I like, I like asking people questions about why they feel like really strongly about, you know, April Fool's Day and things like that.

[Henry Zabowski]

Such a Scorpio. I can't believe it.

[Sasha Sagan]

I walked right into that one.

[Henry Zabowski]

Thank you so much for being with us.

[Zocdoc]

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