Creating Friendships That Matter with Jennifer Wallace

Summary

Laugh Lines with Kim & Penn Holderness

Episode Summary: “Creating Friendships That Matter” with Jennifer Wallace

Original Air Date: February 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this heartfelt and insightful episode of Laugh Lines, Kim and Penn Holderness sit down with journalist and bestselling author Jennifer Wallace to explore the concept of “mattering”—the universal need to feel valued, have purpose, and form meaningful connections, especially as we age or move through major life transitions. Through entertaining banter, vulnerable storytelling, and Jennifer’s research-driven wisdom, the conversation offers candid reflections and actionable advice on making ourselves and others feel that we truly matter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Is "Mattering"? (14:01)

• Definition: Jennifer defines mattering as “the need we all have to feel valued for who we are deep inside,” by ourselves and by others, with opportunities to add value to the world.
• Meta Need: Mattering is a “meta need”—an umbrella above other needs like belonging, purpose, connection, and mastery.
• Research: You can belong to a group and still not feel like you matter there.

Quote:

"Mattering is like gravity, unseen but essential. It holds us in place, it steadies us. When we feel we matter, we feel anchored. When it's missing, we begin to drift."
— Kim reading from Jennifer’s book, (09:01)

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2. Relationship Between Mattering & Purpose (Especially After Life Transitions) (07:13, 43:43)

• Listener Annette asks about finding purpose post-retirement; the hosts relate, discussing cognitive decline and the risk of “drifting.”
• Both men and women often struggle to find new ways of mattering in transitions like empty-nesting, retirement, job changes, or aging.
• Jennifer emphasizes that feelings of reduced mattering are especially strong during life transitions and are completely normal.

Quote:

“Mattering matters throughout the lifespan, and it is most fragile during life transitions.”
— Jennifer Wallace, (44:01)

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3. Finding Everyday Signals of Mattering (16:03, 19:51)

• Small gestures matter most: saving a seat, checking in, bringing soup—these have more impact than any viral post or work accolade.
• The “beautiful mess effect”: Authenticity and imperfection strengthen bonds.
• The importance of not using digital “likes” as a true measure of value—real signals come from in-person contact.

Quote:

“Those little things are signals that we matter.”
— Jennifer Wallace, (19:03)

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4. The Epidemic of Flaking & Building Trust in Adult Friendships (32:06)

• Jennifer identifies “flake culture” as an impediment to meaningful friendships.
• Her #1 advice for being a better friend: Don’t cancel on people if you can help it—show up.

Quote:

“The number one way to create that condition [for trust] is to do what you say you’re going to do.”
— Jennifer Wallace, (33:50)

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5. Getting Past Perfectionism: How To Show Up Imperfectly (28:06)

• Kim discusses how perfectionism holds her back from simple acts of kindness (e.g., writing a note, bringing soup).
• Jennifer recommends embracing “the beautiful mess effect,” showing up authentically and imperfectly, and modeling this for others.

Quote:

“Lean in. Lean into the imperfection. Lean in. Model it.”
— Jennifer Wallace, (29:04)

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6. Expressing Mattering Across Genders (34:48, 36:27)

• Women often feel their worth is tied to relationships, men to work. This dichotomy is shifting but still prevalent.
• Men, facing a “friendship recession,” need more focus on cultivating deep male friendships.

Quote:

“Women are socialized to feel valued through our relationships...For men...a lot of their worth comes from the workplace.”
— Jennifer Wallace, (34:51)

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7. Navigating Mattering Amid Political & Social Divides (36:58)

• Feeling unseen fuels division and extreme behavior.
• Jennifer’s mental exercise: Imagine everyone wearing an invisible sign reading, “Tell me, do I matter?” Respond with compassion, not just agreement.

Quote:

“We can answer that without agreeing...with compassion, with kindness instead of judgment.”
— Jennifer Wallace, (38:53)

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8. Parenting, Children, and (Conditional) Mattering (40:32)

• Children and teens are shaped by whether they feel valued unconditionally or only when they achieve.
• Simple, tangible metaphors, like the “wrinkled $20 bill” story, help reinforce that worth does not diminish with setbacks.

Quote:

“Your worth doesn’t change if you feel knocked down, dragged, soggy inside. Your value is your value, no matter what.”
— Jennifer Wallace, (42:20)

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9. Practical Ways to Make Others Feel They Matter (32:06, 43:43, 56:31)

• Don’t flake—honor your commitments.
• Send specific, appreciative texts (“If it weren’t for you…”).
• Mark important dates for your friends and check in.
• Issue and accept invitations, even when imperfect.
• Depend on others and let yourself be depended on.

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10. Personal Stories of Mattering & Loss

• Kim and Penn share candidly about losing a sense of mattering as their daughter leaves for college (52:36) and Kim’s struggle with perfectionism in everyday relationships.
• Jennifer and Penn both share experiences of losing their perceived value during big transitions—Jennifer moving to London (44:01), Penn’s “dark period” post-ESPN layoff (47:23), and finding new sources of mattering through parenthood or reaching out to others.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jennifer’s Core Principle:
  “The way we feed the need [for mattering] is by mattering to the people who matter to us…in little moments.” (19:51)
• On ‘Beautiful Mess’:
  “That little vulnerability that we’re not perfect is what connects us.” (29:04)
• Invisible Sign Principle:
  “Imagine everyone I meet...wearing an invisible sign around their neck saying, ‘Tell me, do I matter?’” (38:53)
• On Parenting Teens:
  “Parents in our modern world play a unique role, and that is to convince our children of their worth outside of a system that tells them they constantly have to protect [it].” (41:32)
• Penn’s Takeaway:
  “I’m going to try to shift away from attaching mattering only to work. Because pretty soon I’m going to have to matter in some other way.” (57:02)
• Crumbs of Wisdom Closing Segment:
  • 1. The invisible name tag (61:32)
  • 2. Show up, don’t flake (62:02)
  • 3. Men & women attach mattering to different things (62:37)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Defining Mattering & Its Components: 14:01–16:03
• Social Media vs. In-Person Mattering: 19:51–22:38
• Practical Friendship Advice: 32:06–34:16
• Gender & Mattering: 34:48–36:27
• Political Division & Mattering: 36:58–39:45
• Parenting & Mattering: 40:32–43:43
• Navigating Life Transitions: 43:43–46:43
• Personal Stories of Loss/Mattering: 47:23–56:14
• Three “Crumbs of Wisdom” Segment: 61:24–62:37

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Actionable Takeaways

• Send the text, write the note, make the call—even imperfectly.
• Honor the commitments you make; trust is built from showing up.
• Assume everyone you meet wants to know that they matter, and respond accordingly.
• Parents: ensure your kids feel valued for who they are, not just what they do.
• Look for role models and new sources of mattering during life transitions.

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Episode Tone & Style

Blending humor, vulnerability, and research, Kim and Penn create a safe, relatable environment to tackle the deeper questions of aging, identity, and connection. Jennifer Wallace’s warmth and practical wisdom empower listeners to rethink what it means to truly matter—and how to help others feel the same.

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Final Note:
Kim, Penn, and Jennifer repeatedly encourage listeners to reflect on—and actively express to others—their mattering in small, everyday ways. Their challenge: “Show up. Messy, authentically, and often.”

Transcript

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If you know what tiddlywicks are, you're in the right show.

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Me being enneagram1 and a perfectionist, I'm like, I need to make a list about how I'm gonna.

[B]

I need to be the best matterer of all time.

[A]

I want people to know that they're in my life, that they matter, and I'm gonna make them.

[B]

I'm matter the crap out of this.

[C]

This is how we build trusting relationships in adulthood, by creating the conditions for trust to develop.

[B]

Yeah, we get older every day got more wrinkles.

[A]

That's okay.

[B]

Yeah, we're laughing. When we age, life is like a comedy stage. And that's why we got laugh lines.

[A]

Hey, everybody. I'm Kim Holderness.

[B]

And I'm Penn Holderness. Welcome back. Or welcome for the first time to laugh Lines. We're glad you're here.

[A]

Yes. If you can remember the jingle. If you feel like chicken tonight, you're home.

[B]

You want to do it?

[A]

You. You have to sing it.

[B]

You sing it together because I don't.

[A]

Want people to turn off.

[B]

Okay. I feel like chicken tonight. Chick. You know what? Honestly, I don't remember the exact notes.

[A]

Okay, can we play it?

[B]

Yeah. There it is. It was new sauces. Each one's made with real vegetables and herbs so you can make dishes like country French chicken. So we just saw the sauce. New chicken tonight. Simmer sauces from Ragu. Yeah. Chicken tonight.

[A]

Is that still a thing? Like, do they still. No, they don't sell that, do they? Well, it's just pouring sauce over chicken.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which, hey, at a busy. That's like. That's all you do, but it just, it was not photographed.

[B]

What color would you describe that sauce as? They just put a new sidewalk out in front of our house.

[A]

That was the color of sidewalk. That color. It was sidewalk color. Guys, what is it?

[C]

Chicken Tonight was discontinued in the US in 2019.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

However, it still remains active in the UK, Australia, New Zealand and Netherlands, and it's a long standing brand in Australia.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

All right. So Aussies, we do have some listeners in those countries. If you've got some chicken tonight in your pantry, would you please take a picture of it out of the can?

[A]

And let's not be judgy here, because I. We use those Kevin's meals a lot and they basically. They give you the chicken and the sauce to put over it. So it's basically fancy Chicken tonight. So who are we to judge?

[B]

I don't have a problem. I just. Maybe it was the actual commercial in the way that they. Because color correction is a thing that we have now that they didn't have back then. The color of the chicken tonight in that YouTube commercial was interesting.

[A]

I will also say that now we have food stylist and things like that. And I think that's why.

[B]

Yeah. After that one particular commercial, major, major development.

[A]

Okay. If you tuned in last week to our podcast, we were feeling our feelings. It was, it was, you know, we were going through some stuff and we really appreciate your feedback. We've been going through your voicemails, we've been going through your emails, and we really appreciate you reaching out. Today, though, we are switching gears. We have an amazing guest, Jennifer Wallace.

[B]

We are going to talk about mattering, which to me is fascinating. When I first heard she was coming on, I was like, mattering. Oh, that'll be quick. Oh, my gosh. There's so many ways to think about this and. And I have so many questions for her. It's about deepening our connections with people, Right? Because we all want to have a purpose in life. We all want to feel validated for what it is that we think is our purpose in life. And we got an interesting voicemail around that. So this is perfect timing. So let's go to the laugh, Line. Us up and you tell us what's on your mind.

[C]

Hey, my name's Annette and I live in San Antonio, Texas.

[A]

Anytime I hear that somebody is retiring.

[C]

Or getting ready to retire, I ask them what they are going to do.

[A]

To feel empowered and to feel useful.

[C]

Because I am legitimately scared of sitting on the couch for the rest of my time after retirement. I want to have a purpose.

[A]

Annette, thank you. That is a very important question. There, there is evidence that cognitive decline speeds up after retirement. Like, if you don't use it, you lose. It is an actual thing.

[B]

Doesn't that make sense, though? Because, like, what do you do after retirement? You sit and like, watch. Like, if you do it the way that some people are, like, you know what I'm going to do? I'm just going to hang out and sit by the ocean or whatever. And when you do that, also, sometimes, you know, drinky, drinky the wine a little bit more. And that doesn't help with your cognitive development. Like, if you're not. If there's not a reason to get up and put something on that's not your pajamas and have like a little bit of forward motion, that also scares me.

[A]

I will say we have had some really bad weather here in the south. We had an ice storm.

[B]

We were, we were semi retired.

[A]

We literally couldn't leave the house for a couple days. And I was, I. The depression hit, like, just being. Also, I was horizontal for a lot of it. I was just laying down for a lot of it. So. I get that. But in Jennifer Wallace's new book, which we're going to deep dive into, there were a few quotes that kind of caught me. And one of them was an elderly man said the hardest part of aging was that no one relied on him anymore.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she also writes, mattering is like gravity, unseen but essential. It holds us in place, it steadies us. When we feel we matter, we feel anchored. When it's missing, we begin to drift.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I think that's also why I feel like I've been kicked in the gut with Lola leaving for college, because I.

[B]

That was part of your identity, purpose.

[A]

And my purpose was to, you know, even though she was very self sufficient, like I mattered to somebody in their daily life and now I matter a little less.

[B]

And these are all things we should talk to her about.

[A]

Yes. I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

[B]

No, you're fine. But I want to go back to Annette and just tell her that I share your fear, like she said. I think she said she was terrified. Yeah, I share that, number one, because of the cognitive decline, because it runs in my family. And all of the people who I love who have gotten Alzheimer's have done it after they've retired and have probably maybe not had the same kind of purpose that they should have. So I'm determined to buck that trend also. So, like, we have friends who have like really started. Like, I've seen them retire in a way that I think I want to be like. And I'll give a bunch of examples. I have an uncle who like started his own whatever Internet company is and he sold it for a lot of money. That's what happens when you do an Internet. When you do an Internet. He did an Internet and the Google.

[A]

Was like in the year 2000. Then he sold it when it was like he had, he had a website essentially.

[B]

Yeah. And then I got a call from a buddy of mine that was like, I think your cousin or uncle maybe just Uber drove me to the airport in Florida. And I was like, really? And, and then he told him basically, yeah, I'm retired and I, I want to make connections and I want to get moving. So a lot of people take on jobs that maybe they wouldn't have considered beforehand where like, maybe money's not really an object anymore. That's one example. We have a friend who like has been a store worker at Anthropology for.

[A]

She was like very fancy vice president of a Fortune 1 company and now she works at Anthropology. And I am very jealous of her because she gets great discounts and she always looks amazing.

[B]

Yeah, no, she does. And so I just want to say in that I think the fact that you're terrified about it means that you're going to be okay, right? Because it means you're probably aware of it and you're going to find something like that. I mean, you might become a world class tiddlywinks player who knows what it is, but it's a direction that you can go in. What you didn't like the tiddlywinks thing? If you know what tiddlywinks are, you're in the right show.

[A]

Okay, let's get to Jennifer Wallace.

[B]

Yeah, let's do it.

[A]

Jennifer Wallace is an award winning journalist and best selling author who explores the power of mattering in everyday life. Her first book, which was amazing, Never Enough When Achievement Culture Becomes Toxic and what We Can Do about it, that was a New York Times bestseller and an Amazon Best Book of the year. Jennifer has a new book out that will also I'm sure be a New York Times bestseller. In all the awards it's called the Secret to a Life of Deep Connection and Purpose.

[B]

And that book will be the subject of what we're about to talk about. Largely. She is the founder of the Mattering Institute. There's an institute on mattering.

[A]

I want to go there.

[B]

Whose mission is to create cultures of mattering in Workplaces and communities, and co founder of the Mattering Movement, a nonprofit organization dedicated to creating cultures of mattering in schools. Now, I love to research people by seeing, like, what other interviews they've done, what other podcasts they've done. So I just googled mattering. All I did was I googled mattering, and the next word that came up was Oprah. So I pulled it up and like a week ago, she was on. Jen was on Oprah.

[A]

So. But now she's on the lap lines. Welcome, Jennifer Wallace.

[C]

Thank you. I am happy to be here.

[B]

Thanks for taking time away from your busy schedule. I love that you formed a mattering instit. I love that you're besties with Oprah now. Like, and in a garden, like, it's. It is. And now you're here.

[A]

And now you're here in our.

[B]

In our attic. And so this is. We're in the. In the presence of greatness. And I got to tell you, when prepping for this, like, we have just been looking back and forth at each other with, like, a million more questions, which means we're really looking forward to this.

[C]

Oh, well, I'm a huge fan.

[A]

You're sweet to say this. Okay, so I was really. Your book came to me, like, at a very good time. Sped read it because I think I'm just give you a little life update 49. About turn 50. My daughter's left. My first has left for college. I'm sort of figuring out where I matter and how I matter, and I think through different stages of life, like, how we should matter to ourselves. I need to back up, though. What is mattering? Like, what does it even mean?

[C]

Yeah, so we use the word, but actually, psychologists and researchers have been studying it as a human need, and it is simply defined as the need we all have to feel valued for who we are deep inside, by ourselves, by our families, by our friends, our colleagues, our communities, and to have an opportunity to add value back to the world.

[B]

There's an element to mattering that's, I think, feeling good, that you're doing the right thing and going in the right direction. But there's also external input that's very important, that other people validate you for that.

[C]

Yes. So it's feeling valued for who you are inside. But we are social creatures, so we crave that social proof that our voice matters, that it's heard, that we make a positive impact on the world around us, that the world would be less good if we weren't here. And importantly, that we're not going through this world alone. So all of those sort of human questions that we think about, do people hear me? Do they care about what I have to say? Do I have someone to depend on me, to rely on me? Are people invested in my well being, et cetera. So all of these. So just to dork out for one second, mattering is a meta need, researchers call it, which means that it's a need that sits above other needs. So, like an umbrella. And underneath the umbrella are things like belonging, connection, purpose, meaning, mastery, self determination. All of these things that we know we need as humans to live a meaningful, full life. But mattering, what I love about it is that it takes these things deeper. So you can belong to a class or an accounting department or, Or a neighborhood or even a family and not feel like you matter to the people there. So you could also have a sense of meaning and purpose in your life. But if no one is telling you that what you're doing is making a positive impact, you can burn out and disengage.

[A]

And along those lines, you use an example from a Charleston fire chief in. In the book. And the firefighters were experiencing some burnout, partly they figured out, because they didn't know if they were having impact. And I'm like, duh, they're literally having the most impact ever. They're saving people's lives, but they don't. They didn't know it. So talk to us a little bit about why it's so important that, you know, you matter.

[C]

Yeah. So I was initially connected with firefighters because I was thinking, what are the jobs that are. Obviously, as you put, obviously, you're making an impact. You're risking your life for somebody else. But what I didn't know is that firefighters are often the first to arrive at the scene of a car accident or even a medical emergency. They stabilize the person, and then EMS takes over, whisks them to the hospitals. And firefighters never know what happens next, if the person survived, if they ever walked again, if their efforts made a difference. And so what I was hearing from the firefighters was that they were feeling so disconnected from their impact that it was making them want to disengage and even feel a little cynical about their work. Like they. Does this make a difference? And so a fire chief named Greg, who I profile in the book, created a system to change that, to track the outcomes of rescues so that his firefighters would know if their efforts had saved a life or ease somebody's suffering. And what I realized in that story as I was doing that reporting is that so many of us are disconnected from our impact. We are raising children often, you know, for 18 years, not really getting the feedback that what we are doing is working, that it's being noticed. But also in our workplaces, people that I interviewed were saying they felt often invisible, like cogs in a wheel. And so what I've come to realize is that a big part of knowing that we matter or feeling that we matter, feeling like we matter, is having other people remind us and connect us to our impact. And that could be done in a million ways. One of the examples I have in the book is sending a text to someone in your life saying, if it weren't for you, if it weren't for you, I wouldn't have had the courage to go for this big job interview. Thank you for believing in me when I sometimes can't even believe in myself. So really, I think a lot of the reason why people are not connected to their impact by others is because we have so much input being thrown at us all day long and so much output being demanded of us that just to get through our to do list, we often have to go on autopilot. And when we do that, we forget to close the loop. We forget to say to the friend, you know that advice you gave me last week, I took it and here's what happened.

[B]

Yeah, man, that's.

[C]

Those little things are signals that we matter.

[B]

So I'm still, I want to get to. More to. To Kim's. Like, Kim's going to become your case study here shortly and which we love doing here because she's the most.

[A]

Basically, it's free therapy is why I do this podcast.

[B]

It is. But you're also like so self aware and so vulnerable and I love it. And, and then, you know, we'll do that. But like talking on the. The macro still. And I want to geek out with you a bit here as well. You're talking about little ways to feel like you matter. There are these like micro ways to feel like you matter. We live in a social media world where people are crazy about getting a certain number of likes or view. That to me doesn't seem as healthy as a direct non digital contact. And I'm wondering if you've studied the difference between digital validation and in person validation and one to one validation.

[C]

Yeah. What I call that digital validation that you're talking about is a false mattering. Almost like I think of it like fool's gold. Remember during the gold Rush, like the shiny thing that looked like gold but really wasn't that's what social media, from strangers, that kind of validation. It's a little bit like the junk food of mattering, right? You could get a little bit of a hit, you could feel it, but it's not nourishing. It's not going to actually feed this need. And the way we feed the need is by mattering to the people who matter to us. And that is often done in person, and it's done in little moments. You know, what struck me in my interviewing, my research for the book was when I would ask people, tell me a time when you felt like you mattered. It was never because I went viral in a reel or because I was toasted at a milestone birthday or I won an award at work. It was the small moments that they talked about. It was somebody saving a seat for them at a dinner or somebody coming over with a pot of soup when they were sick. These small moments are the moments that actually feed our mattering. And we, you know, when we were all growing up, I'm older than you a little bit. In the 70s and early 80s, we had these mattering signals baked into our daily lives. So we knew our neighbors, we relied on them, they relied on us. We had family that lived nearby. We belonged to religious faiths where every weekend we were fed this idea of unconditional love and value by a greater God. We belong to bowling leagues. We had these moments, right, where every day we felt like we mattered to the people around us. Robert Putnam, who's this great sociologist at Harvard, wrote a fabulous book called Bowling Alone, which has tracked over the decades how we have stopped being parts, daily parts of each other's lives, and we are now being these one family villages in our homes. And what happens when we do that is that we. We lose these critical signals. We lose the signals on a daily basis. A neighbor that relies on us, that tells us we're needed, you know, heading to church or heading to a synagogue or heading to a religious institution and getting the message that even with your flaws, even with your mistakes, you are still lovable, you are still loved. We've replaced that with, like you pointed out, kind of the junk food of mattering. And it doesn't work. It doesn't fill us. And that's why I think so many people are struggling with a lack of meaning and purpose in their lives.

[B]

Notice all those were in person things that she was talking about back in the 70s and 80s. It was all in person.

[A]

I think that's honest. We have had the gift to be able to do a Couple book tours. And I think that's why I like those so much is because we're meeting people in person. And I mean, I guess it's ego too, but you actually get to see and hear from the kids. And those are more impactful to me than. Although I love the comments on a video. The comments on a video.

[B]

Yeah. So I. We put out a video about how horrible the south is at snow a couple of weeks ago. It got like 20 million views in. In a day. And that, like, I felt good about that. I'm like, oh, we're doing our job right. But my favorite part of that day was I went to dinner with a buddy of mine and afterwards, I didn't even know men do this. He was like, great time hanging. He sent me a text saying, like, great time hanging with you. And I was like, well, that was the highlight of my day. Oh, I mean, he's. Otherwise, he's in total. But.

[A]

Oh, I know who you're talking about.

[B]

That's. This is me. This is how we talk about our buddies. No, he's the best. But like, it was so nice. And I'm like sitting here thinking about it while she's talking about it. That moment mattered more. Yeah, it did.

[A]

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$30 off your first box and free Croissants for Life when YOU visit wildgrain.com laugh or you can use promo code Laugh at checkout. This is gonna wind a little bit. So there's a quote here and from your book I'll read. There's a growing tendency in our culture to treat responsibility as an inconvenience, an obligation to dodge or delegate. In trying to guard against burnout or preserve autonomy, we can begin to see every task as a threat, like one more thing to manage rather than a sign that we matter. Hear me out. I want to, and I've been craving this even before I read your book was I want. I want to be the type of person who lets people know. Like to write the note that says I loved hanging out with you. That Remembers your birthday and like, bring soup to neighbors. Like, I want to be that person, and I've been craving that. I'm also a little bit of a perfectionist. So if the soup isn't perfect, if the note, if the stationary isn't right, if I don't have the right words, I just don't. And then it kind of weighs on my to do list. Like, help me kick that from my brain. Like, it shouldn't just be a thing on the to do list.

[C]

You are not alone in struggling with perfectionism today. There's this wonderful research by a researcher named Tom Curran, who has been tracking over time the rise in what he calls socially prescribed perfectionism. This is the idea that society is sending you signals that you need to be. Be perfect, to be loved, to be valued. Lots of reasons for that, you know, lots of people making money off of sending us those signals. And so what I would say to you is to. To reflect on that as you're doing right now. You know, there's. First, we have to really come to terms with the messages that we are hearing and that we have internalized. And I certainly have come. I have internalized those messages, and over the last seven years, I have picked them apart so that I am not. What's the word I'm looking for? It's not just a part of my being. When I hear those messages coming out, I stop and I say, oh, no, no, no. That's not where my worth is. That's not where my value is. So first you have to do that exercise in hearing the messages in our society. Then you can lean on this other research called the beautiful mess effect, which is the idea that, you know, we all have kind of messy lives. You know, our soup doesn't always come out perfectly, our stationery isn't always engraved. And that actually that authenticity brings people closer to us. That it makes us that little vulnerability that we're not perfect is what connects us. So I, in my head, what I think about is if you've ever tried to put a sticker on a really shiny surface, it doesn't stay stuck. It needs a little bit of the grit to really stay. So what I would say to you is lean in. Lean into the imperfection. Lean in. Model it. Model having people over for dinner in your kitchen and the house not being picture perfect, not saying, let them into a super messy life, but reveal that. Be like a leader. Be somebody who leads in that way. I have lots of friends who deliberately invite people into their homes when it's not Perfect. Because they feel like that's a deeper connection to show you my. My life, my messy life, to invite you into it.

[B]

So, Jenny, you know, it's fascinating. Kim's sort of the opposite of everyone else on the planet, on social media and on, like, everything that we do. She's very comfortable being imperfect and imperfect and being, like, a beautiful mess. That's, like, most of our content. And I think most people, they want to look perfect on that. That part. But in real life, I think your. Your enneagram one takes over probably more in real life, is what you're saying, correct? Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And I. And it stops me from reaching out to people. Like, it stops me, like, oh, you know what? I should call Hillary. Oh, but I only have five minutes. Like, I.

[B]

It wouldn't be the perfect conversation. Yeah.

[A]

You know, so it stops me. And I. I just. Just need to get over that. Quite honestly, I think you do.

[C]

And I think you could be kind of a leader in getting over that. You could be the person that calls Hillary and says, do you have five minutes? I only have five minutes, but I just want to hear your voice. So just.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Just kind of framing it. I want you guys to come over for dinner, but I am so slammed with work. The house is not going to be perfect, and the food might not be great, but I promise I'll be fun.

[A]

And that's going to be more fun. That's, like, so much more fun. Yes. There was a couple stories, or a story in particular you told where a woman, her. Her mom passes and, like, she starts a nonprofit. And I think that's part of the way that I feel, too, is, like, I want to be somebody who matters to people. We all do. But I don't have time to start a nonprofit. So, like, what are some. It doesn't need to be that. I know. But what are some small ways that we can show up and matter?

[C]

Well, I would say the number one way is to be a friend who commits to things. So it is if you say you're going to show up for a friend, if you're going to meet for coffee, unless you are sick, do not cancel. We live in. I write about this in the book of Flaking Flake Culture, where people, I think, coming out of COVID are just way too comfortable canceling. Sorry. Just not up for it tonight. Had a long day at work. No, sorry. Not okay. Not okay. So I would say the number one thing for anyone out there who wants to be a better friend, build a deeper relationship, is to show Up. When you say you're going to show up, that's number one. Number two, and this takes no time, is if you have a friend, let's say her mother is going in for surgery on Thursday. Mark it in your calendar. We're so busy. A lot of why we don't make people feel like they matter is simply because we're busy. So mark it into your calendar. Follow up on a text with Lisa about her mom on Thursday. That's it. Just a simple. That will take you 15 seconds and it will send the signal to your friend that they are a priority in your mind. So there are little ways of doing that. Right. It's sending the text. If it weren't for you, it's showing up and not being the friend that doesn't cancel. Here's what I will tell you about being that friend. Because this is something that I really committed to about 10 years ago when I was making a new friendship and this woman was this way with me. She was, it was extraordinary. Like, would never cancel a plan, always showed up, always followed up. And I was like, this is how we build trusting relationships in adulthood.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

By creating the conditions for trust to develop. And the number one way to create that condition is to do what you say you're going to do.

[B]

So this is so. Everything you're saying is so simple. But I'm like, I want those of you watching or listening raise your hand if you flaked on someone recently.

[A]

And I. Jenny did not raise her hand.

[B]

No, she didn't. Like that hit hard. But I think I've like saying it out loud is going to make me better at it. But I've like, I've got to get better at that.

[A]

I will say that it's like widely known in my friend group Friday night specifically, like when the bra's off at like 4:30, like it doesn't go back on. There's something about Friday night. I just need to be inside.

[B]

That's fine.

[A]

And my daughter's, or my friend, my dear friend's daughter left for a study abroad program. Program. She's not going to see her for like five months. She's like, I need to go out. So I did. I left the house last Friday. She goes, I know this is big for you, Kim, but she's like, I just got to get out before the ice storm. Like, like, let's go, you know, divert my mind. So it's like. But I was so happy, I went, yeah.

[B]

Gender wise, do men suck at this more than women?

[C]

I would say Gender wise, and I do think this is shifting, but gender wise, women are socialized to feel valued through our relationships, which is why when, when girlfriends have a rupture, it can feel so intense because so much of our worth as women is wrapped up in our relationships and being good in relationships. I would say for men, on average, a lot of their worth comes from the workplace feeling valued because they are adding value at work. Again, and these are averages. I do think that's shifting. I think men are fighting against the friendship recession, which is what's going on, particularly in male lives, but also in female lives. I think there is this friendship recession that all of us are experiencing. And the recession in the way I think about it is that there's been this hollowing out of relationships. And so when you were talking about your friend following up after meeting for dinner, I have a dear friend who does that. She's been my friend now for 30 years and she gave me the habit of doing that because when you leave a dinner right where you feel warm and cozy, you're like, did they feel that too? Did they feel. And to have somebody send the follow up text that said, yeah, I felt that too. Like, that was so great. Thank you for this. It is 30 seconds. But it is a way of just underscoring you matter to me, that dinner mattered to me. And I love that.

[B]

And I'm going to tell, next time I go to dinner with him, I'm going to tell him I felt warm and cozy and like he's going to be. He's going to have to deal with it. So no, I love that. So. So, Jenny, I want to go back to one thing you said. You said men attach their values to work more than women. So obviously this is a subjective thing. Different people attach different values to their mattering and to their worth. What happens if you're in a relationship or in a social situation where what matters to you is in direct conflict with what matters to the other. Other person?

[C]

Can you think of an example?

[B]

Yes. The world that we live in right now, I think people are feeling like they matter and that, that they're right in doing something and that they're, they're crusading toward a world that fits in whatever their image is. And they're on one side of the street and there's other people on a completely different side of the street. Right now, I guess I'm talking a little about politics.

[C]

Yeah. So you know what, what we know from the research on, on mattering is that when you feel like you Matter. You show up to the world in positive ways. You contribute. You engage in positive ways. When you are chronically made to feel like you don't matter, you can withdraw, become anxious, depressed, turn to substances to try to alleviate the pain. I am getting to your question. Just one second. I have a study in there, in the book about suicidal men and the two words that they used to describe their suffering was useless and worthless. Or if you are feeling like your voice isn't being heard, that you don't matter, that you're not being seen, you can act out online attacks, road rage, political extremes can be that way. But then there's also a third way of expressing this need and getting this need met. And it is collectively to raise voices together. And so I don't have an answer, but what I do have is that this is a deep human need, and people on both sides of the aisle are feeling like their voice isn't being heard. And again, I don't have an answer for you. But what I would say and what I try to do in my own life, is to imagine everyone I meet, even people whose views I don't agree with, with wearing an invisible sign around their neck saying, tell me, do I matter?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And we can answer that without agreeing with them, but with compassion, with kindness instead of judgment. And I would. What I hope is that we are getting to such a breaking point right now that what I am hoping is we will start to see each other and the suffering. Suffering that we are seeing on a global level, not just nationally. I mean, we are seeing this globally, people rising up and saying, I need my voice heard.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm going to validate you and say that you did a really good job answering that question. Because I'm like, the invisible sign is wonderful. The ability to be at, like, a Thanksgiving table or at like, a family table and still remember that person does have things that. That they want to matter and that you can still validate them in some way.

[C]

And so even if it's just eye contact and warmth.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Even if you don't want to get engaged because it's too heated and you're too. It's too activating for you just to meet them as a human.

[B]

That's really good. Okay. Thanks for letting me ask that. I know that I just went back. I just, like, just put the truck back in front of whatever it is.

[A]

No, we can't ignore what's happening in our world right now. And I. When I was reading your book, and the feelings, especially in. In children and in Teens, when they feel like they don't matter. I mean, my brain called the ocd. Like, I kind of spiral on, like, what's the worst thing that could happen? Sometimes I'm like, oh, this is why teens. Some teens are probably acting out, probably committing crimes. I mean, I go straight to, like, school shootings and stuff like that. What can we do to help our kids know that they matter?

[C]

Yeah, it is. So when you. When you think about mattering, it's the earliest of days when children are born, where they are looking for signs that they matter. So this need matters throughout the lifespan. When you are in adolescence and developing a sense of self, you are looking for those signals. Those signals really matter. Do I matter only when I achieve? Do I matter only when I look a certain way? Do I matter only when I behave a certain way? So in other words, is my value contingent on how I perform in the world, or is my value unconditional? And our kids are saturated with messages that say, oh, no, it's very conditional, and your whole worth is conditional. So I've really, as someone who's been researching this for seven years, have come to the conclusion that parents in our modern world play a unique role, and that is to convince our children of their worth outside of a system that tells them they constantly have to protect.

[A]

You had a quote in there that kind of, like, took my breath away. There was a girl who said that she felt like she mattered when her, like, GPA was up and her. The weight was down. And I was like, so, yeah, I just. I just want to know the language, specific things we can do, because I never want my daughter to say that about me.

[C]

I think it's a constant conversation. I think it is. There's one. A woman I interviewed in California had this great thing that she used to do with her kids when they would come home having bombed a test or gotten rejected by a friend or didn't make a team. She'd reach into her wallet and she would grab whatever bill she had, and she would hold it up and say to her kids, how much is this worth? Let's say it's a $20 bill. They'd say, 20, and she'd wrinkle it up. She'd put it on the floor, dirty it dramatically, put it in a glass of water, and then she would hold up a dirty, wrinkled, soggy bill, and she would say, now, what's it worth? Worth like this $20 bill? Your worth doesn't change if you feel knocked down, dragged, soggy inside. Your value is your Value, no matter what. And so it's something that I. It's something that I've learned in the last seven years. And I kind of have a mantra that I say to myself, and that is, I am not my failures, and I am not my successes. And it keeps me very, very steady. It keeps me very, very steady. So I am. I am. I am not my failures. I am not my setbacks. And how do I. Somebody asked me this last night, how do you maintain that mantra? You maintain that mantra because you have people in your life that you have let in who know you for who you are deep inside, and they remind you when you are feeling down. Yeah. You can't just remind yourself of your unconditional worth. Yes, you need to believe it. But then you need people in your life that you've let in, who have let. Who. Who really see the true you that you can open up to when you. When you're struggling and who will remind you of your unconditional worth.

[A]

So in our 40s and 50s, sometimes I don't know why it hits like that. We. Maybe it's the kids leaving, maybe it's a, you know, transition in a job. I think a lot of. Of my friends, the people in my life, were all starting to question, like, how we matter, how we mattered 10 years ago is very different than how we matter now. That's normal, I'm assuming.

[C]

So normal. So mattering matters throughout the lifespan, and it is most fragile during life transitions. So going to college, graduating college, changing jobs, relocating, the loss of a loved one, all of these things, aging, retirement, all of these empty nesting, all of these things can shake our sense of mattering. And that is because the roles that used to provide us with those signals that we mattered change the way we used to add value, changes. So I have a son who's in college. I have a daughter who's a senior about to leave, and my youngest is a sophomore. And so. So yes, even though I am studying mattering, my mattering still took a hit. But what I did because I was studying this, I now know what to do to kind of steady myself through these transitions. And so what I started doing is right before my son was leaving for college, I talked to friends who had gone through it. So I looked for role models who are people who have gone through this transition that I'm facing and come out the other side, take them for lunch, take them for whatever, talk about it, let them be kind of your coach through this transition. And then. And I wish I had had this advice when my husband and I relocated to London, when we were newly married, and I left my job at 60 Minutes, left my best friends, left my family, and all of a sudden, overnight, my sense of mattering collapsed. Now, back then, 25 years ago, I didn't know that what was happening. Instead I just personalized it and said, wow, I am really bad at coping with change. I just assumed that there was something wrong with me. But what mattering does is it. It helps you zoom out and put into context and say, of course you're struggling. Transitions are tricky. And so just knowing that you're not the first one and the last one to go through it, and harnessing the power of invitation. So that means accepting invitations from people and also issuing them. I interviewed a woman in the book who went through a horrible divorce, and she was complaining to her therapist that her social life had really, you know, dropped down to zero. People weren't inviting her because she was a fifth wheel. And so her therapist said to her, well, then you start inviting people into your home, you start hosting dinner parties. And so really the takeaway for all of us is that we have agents, agency. We don't have to wait to matter again. We can find new ways to matter.

[B]

Yeah. So it's the way that you described London. I'm wondering if that wasn't like your biggest challenge, mattering in your life. And I was thinking as you were doing that, I was listening, but at the same time, I was sort of spacing out because he has ADHD and was thinking about, like, what was my, what was my point like when I felt like I mattered the least? And you're right, Jenny, it was worse work related. It was like I was. I'd gotten what I thought was my dream job about 20 years ago at ESPN. And then I was so bad at it, in their opinion, that they paid me for a year and a half, the same amount, just not to be on their TV screen. They were like, you are really flaky actually.

[A]

Could I stick up for you for a second? That's not what happened. You were hired by ABC Sports to do, like, video essays.

[B]

True.

[A]

ESPN does not do video essays.

[B]

No, they want me to talk about, like, this.

[A]

They, they bought ABC Sports. So they were like, yeah, you don't fit here. But they did say, like, you're sort of, your style does not work here. It wasn't that you were bad.

[B]

No, but I was just sitting in a, in a, in a, in a room by myself while you went off to work making more money than you.

[A]

But still making more money than me, which is.

[B]

That's its own problem. It was a guaranteed contract, but just really having, having this crisis that you're talking about. And what got me out of it, I didn't have any of the tools you asked me for. The blessing that got me out of it was the birth of our daughter, who gave me something to do in some way to matter. While Kim went off to work, I got to be the manny, and that solved it for me. But before that, there was a lot of darkness. So that's my story. You told us yours. Can you think of a time when you had the biggest struggle over this?

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[A]

I. I think I was rocked by my daughter leaving more about to ask.

[B]

Like, could it be now?

[A]

Yeah. And I was very prepared for it. I'd done all the things you said. Like I went out to dit lunch with friends. I'm like, give me the roadmap. And they're like, oh, it's really hard. It sucks. I'm like, but I'm strong. Like I am really. I have a job and I have this other child at home. Like, what are you talking about? I had, I. It. It rocked me and I was not expecting that because I was like, wait a second. Like right now I should be going to watch her play in a tennis match. Right now I should be making dinner because she's coming home late from this. Like I like even just I try to still to this day, like instacarter stuff. Like there was a big storm where she, you know, went to school and I was trying to like instacart her thing. She's like, mom, I'm good. I don't need it. I'm good. I'm like, oh, but just like let me, let me make sure you have flashlights and stuff. But she's good. So I think that it's what my job was as a mom, to make sure she was good, but also like kicked me in the teeth.

[B]

And it's still. You're still sort of in that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So I just like thrust that all into my childhood. My sophomore in high school, the one who's still here.

[C]

I get it, I get it. We went through it too. I mean, my husband, I think he was mourning for years leading up to our oldest going to like, literally every time my oldest would. Would go out the door senior year, we would both walk him to the door. That's like a little tradition that we have in our house.

[A]

It's.

[C]

We live in an apartment, so it's not a long walk, but we, we walk each other to the door and we would just. He'd leave, the elevator would close, and my husband would like lean against the door so dramatically, he's like, I can't, I can't. And you know, there's a. There's such a wonderful way that we have parented our children, our generation, that we have built these really deep, meaningful relationships with them. And I'll tell you, the way that I'm looking at it, and I'm not saying I didn't go through it. It was grief. I mean, when he left, there was real grief. But it's also exciting to see their wings working. You don't know, when you send them out into the world, are the wings going to work? And anyway, to me, I'm getting a lot of mattering through seeing 18 years of investment pay off.

[B]

I think that's where I am. I think that's how I feel. Like every time everyone's like, do you miss your daughter? I'm like, yeah, but she's kicking ass. So that actually does make me feel like I matter more because it's all. I'm. All cause of us, or it's partially because of us.

[A]

Stop.

[B]

We did some things to help her. And so that does give me like that. She's so right like that. And maybe there's two different. Maybe I'm her and you're her husband.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I will say to the parents who's. Whose children, and there's a lot of kids who are now in a failure to launch. Right. There's a lot of college age kids and 20 year olds struggling. And just to any parent out there who is hearing this and saying, oh my God, did I not not matter? Did I not do it right? Absolutely not. Not what we're saying right here. But there are ways to set your struggling child up to help them matter. I have a story in the book of a wonderful guy who was not able to get a job and was getting depressed, was living in his parents home after college, stopped applying for jobs because he could not just so tired of rejection. And a next door neighbor came over who was going through chemo treat and knocked on the door and said would you be willing to drive me to my doctor's appointments? I'll pay you. And the kid, the young man said yes. Just to get his parents off his back and also to make a little cash. And what he realized in doing that was how much he was needed. And he found himself when she was really struggling with nausea and he saw it and he had to help her into the car. There was like a turning point moment when he dropped her off and he said I'm going to go to the pharmacy this like holistic pharmacy and ask him what do you have for people going through chemo? And the mattering set him back. So while it's very hard to watch our kids struggle and we cannot make them matter as much as we want to. Right. That's a felt experience. There are things we can do to try to help our kids be on a path where they could start to feel valued again. And that is to depend on them to really know that they are dependent on by others.

[A]

Well, I loved your book. It really has inspired me. I me being enneagram1 and a perfectionist. I'm like I need to make a list about how I'm gonna.

[B]

I need to be the best matterer of all time.

[A]

I want people to know it that they're in my life, that they matter.

[B]

And I'm gonna make matter the crap out of this.

[A]

But I, I'm. But instead after we get up beautiful mess. Yeah. I'm going to just. I'm gonna to start simple text some friends. I just like. Like a dear friend just lost her dad. I'm going to go to the store and get a card. Like I'm gonna. I'm gonna. This is.

[B]

Yep. And I am not gonna flake.

[A]

Not gonna flake.

[B]

And I'm gonna try. I. I think this is really like you. One of the biggest nuggets I got out of what you said was that that men attach mattering to work. I'm going to try to shift away from that.

[C]

Good.

[B]

If I can like just start. It's going to take time. Right. I don't think I can do it it instantly but I'm going to try to begin that shift because we're not getting any younger and it's pretty soon I'm going to have to matter in some other way.

[A]

Some other way.

[B]

Yeah. Hey, can I ask you a question that has nothing to do with your book? Because this is laugh lines and we mostly, we mostly talk about like the 90s and growing up. And I love that you mentioned that you kind of grew up in a similar time as us. If you did grow up in a similar time as us, how many other friends did you have named Jennifer?

[C]

Jennifer? So many.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm Kimberly. So it was only. It was exclusively Jennifer or Kimberly.

[B]

There's a lot of Jennifers. Right. That are right around our age.

[C]

Yes. And, and, and I remember, you know, when I was growing up, like feeling such a sense of identity that my name was Jenny with an I. E. Oh, okay. And so no, I was different than the other Jenny's. Like, it's so funny, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Maybe this is why you've become an expert on mattering, because there were so many Jennifers.

[A]

Jenny with an ie. Where can people find you and your work?

[C]

So you can follow me on Instagram, enferberhenny Wallace or I have a newsletter that I put out one month with tips on mattering and that's@jenniferb wallace.com and of course, yeah.

[A]

In your books, which have been amazing. Well, we thank you so much for joining us today. You matter. You matter. You. You've inspired us. Thank you so much.

[C]

Thank you. And you add so much value in a, in a world where it could feel very noisy and sad. You. You lift us. So thank you. That matters.

[A]

Thank you. Love making a new friend, right? Yes.

[B]

Do you feel like. I feel like. I don't know if we have her phone number, but we should probably text her right now and tell her that we really enjoyed. I know that chat that. Because that's what you're supposed to. Supposed to do apparently. And I need to get better at that.

[A]

Well, I have to say before, when her book went on sale and I, and I saw sort of the theme of it, I got it right away sped read it because it is something in my life I've been craving, trying to be the person to let people know they matter. Like I, I don't feel like I do a good job of like, I'll think about people like, oh, I love that person so much. But then I never actually send the text or send the card.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like I get so bogged down in life that those are the important things that I should really Prioritize.

[B]

I think I'm good in the moment. I'm a good hype man. Like, if I'm there, I'll. I'll usually pump people up and tell them, like, the good that I see in them, but it's just a matter of getting to that point and making sure I make my appointments. And then like the follow ups, it's the things. It's like the simple things that I might not be doing that well. So I. I took a lot out of that. You want to hear some. Some nuggets?

[A]

Yeah. Well, I think we're gonna. Aren't we. We're still workshopping the cookie thing.

[B]

We're gonna do pins. Morsels of.

[A]

Okay, no. So here's the deal. If you're new to this podcast, we had Pen's three piece nuggets, and we turned him into a chicken nugget. And he would give you the three nuggets of wisdom that he would learn from this podcast. Right. And then we were hoping for a nug sponsor. Nugs just left us high and dry.

[B]

We turned me into a nugget and no sponsors. Right.

[A]

So now that I've been basically eating.

[B]

A cookie cake per week, specifically a happy birthday cake. When it's not your birthday.

[A]

When it's not my birthday. We were like, maybe it's like a cookie and it's a. So Anne Marie, put some. Put some suggestions for the title of this segment. Good Crumbs of wisdom.

[B]

Okay. Crumbs of wisdom.

[A]

Sweet takeaways. I sort of like that. Bites of hope. Oh, ready?

[B]

Wait a minute.

[A]

But. But they're not always hopeful. The thing. Ben comes out if it's a bite. So hold on a few good crumbs.

[B]

We're getting there.

[A]

Okay. Or morsels for life. Those are all great. Good job.

[B]

Bites for hope is. I'm just imagining someone.

[A]

Sounds like a fundraiser being bitten. No, it sounds like. It sounds like a funny thing.

[B]

I think the crumbs of wisdom might have been the best one.

[A]

Okay, here. Pen's top three crumbs of wisdom.

[B]

And this is stuff. This is really. Honestly, these are Jenny's crumbs that we.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Of wisdom. Number one, the invisible name tag. She says anytime she talks to someone, she tries to imagine that there's an invisible name tag that they're wearing that says, hi, I have things that I value. I need to matter.

[C]

Matter.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And just remember that, like, look at the person and almost, like, see that.

[A]

Name tag and tell me how I matter.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Number two, show up for lunch. Dates and for things that you say you're gonna do and don't flake. Did you say there was a flaking epidemic or something like that? That really hit me.

[A]

Yeah. And so I do worse. I don't. I'm pretty honest about. About if I'm gonna go or not. I just. Don't, don't. I'll just say, like, nah, not gonna do it. Like, I need to actually say.

[B]

I'm gonna say you're gonna do it, and then you need to do it.

[A]

Right. Honestly, I was really good all year because I wanted to. Kind of a goal of mine was to say yes more to things. And I was good. And then it got really cold. You guys, I'm sorry. We live in an ice kingdom right now. And so just, like, doing anything.

[B]

Those are special extenuating circumstances. If you can't drive safely somewhere, I don't think that. That Jenny's gonna ding you for that.

[A]

Okay, so.

[B]

And our number three crumb of wisdom. Women attach mattering to relationships and family. Men tend to do it more toward work. It makes sense. It does. Like, that's a traditional look, I guess, on the world on things that you're expected to do as a person traditionally. But I needed to hear her say that and attach it to mattering in that specific word to know that I need to shift that a little bit.

[A]

Bit. Well, Kim's one piece nug. Kim's cookie of sweetness, of takeaway, of. Of whatever. Show up.

[B]

Messy, beautiful mess.

[A]

Yeah, show. Show up.

[B]

You've got a cookie in your face now, don't you?

[A]

I hope I've been turned into a cookie. Why does Pen only get the cookie? Yeah, I. I show up as I really am online. You're right. Like, I don't feel any hesitation about being a little messy without makeup online. But in person, I don't know why. I feel like I have to be perfect.

[B]

Isn't that weird? Like, that just kind of occurred to me while we were talking.

[A]

I'll show up without makeup online. Yeah, easy peasy in stories all the time. I would never go to Target without makeup.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Like, I don't know.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

I don't know. I don't care about either of those things. I have an Instagram page called Double Chin Pinstagram where I only take pictures that are disgusting looking of my face.

[A]

And it is so. You know what? You know what this world needs, Pen?

[B]

What?

[A]

It needs more double chin pictures from you. If you got. And you have a lot of followers there.

[B]

I know it's weird and I don't post very much. It's just like it. Honestly, there's only so much you can do and.

[A]

True. I think. Could we make this a challenge? Do you know what I also love to do is to challenge my husband to do things that doesn't involve.

[B]

Yeah, it's awesome. Thanks.

[A]

No, but I feel like. Like we could really. You could be a chin influencer.

[B]

I already am a chin fluencer.

[C]

Maybe.

[A]

Oh, there was a shaving company that reached out to you and we're, like, trying to figure out a way. Maybe it's on the double chin. Yeah, maybe you get a brand deal.

[B]

I don't know. But like, it.

[A]

Shave those chins.

[B]

But you don't want to. You know, you shave like this. If you try to shave like this, there's going to be a lot of cuts. Sorry, let me get the mic out of the way.

[A]

He's a chin fluencer. You guys, if you're listening to this, you matter.

[B]

You matter.

[A]

You matter. And I challenge you to let people in your life know that they matter. So. And that's what I'm going to do, too.

[B]

I'm proud to tell each other that we matter more often.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I try to because I know that I am an acts of service girl. Like, that's how I. That's how I receive love. You're a physical touch kind of guy. So you and I have a different love language. But you really do a good job of like, you got gas in my car before the ice storm. And I was like that. Nobody has shown me love like that. And so, yes, I need to. I need to tell you more.

[B]

I'm not telling. I'm not saying you need to. I'm saying, do we need to do that? Because that's. This is how we get down. Just like this. That's how we do it. That's how we High five.

[A]

Okay, we need to wrap this up.

[B]

Yep. Laugh Lines is written and produced by Kim Holderness, Penn Holderness and Ann Marie Tapke with original music by Pen Holderness. I want to tell each of those people why they matter to me really quickly. Kim, you are a wonderful mother to our children. And you make my heart flutter every day. And you make me want to be a better person. Anne Marie, you are one of the. One of the most loyal people I've ever met. And seeing that both as a friend and as an employee makes me just very proud to call you someone who we work with. It is filmed, edited and live produced by Sam Allen, Sam, you are to me. You matter to me because sometimes you provide a perspective that I never thought of, and you provide it with a lot of love and patience and caring. So thank you. You matter to me for that. And hosted by acast. Acast. You matter to us because of all the ads that you might be here hearing when you're on the. The audio podcast. As always, we'd love to hear from you. And you matter to me. No, you do. You like. You guys listen if nobody listens. Yeah, we read the comments. Some people send us letters, like. And I love hearing your stories about life, and I love hearing, like, how we're connected. So, like, we. We say something and then you tell me and Kim something, and we feel this, like, great connection, a someone we've never met before, and that really. That makes you matter. We love to hear from you. Please write to us at podcast the holder holdernessfamily.com email. You matter to me because I need you to know what's going on in.

[A]

The world or leave us a voicemail at 323-364-3929.

[B]

Voicemails matter to me now it.

[A]

Now you're overused.

[B]

No, but I just want to tell you guys, when you leave a voicemail, we can hear your voice.

[A]

I know. I love a voice now.

[B]

It matters to me.

[A]

Called earlier. Yeah, this was. I feel lighter.

[B]

Yeah, that was. I'm sorry. That was the longest credits ever.

[A]

It's important that we do that.

[B]

We'll talk to you soon in the laugh lines.

[C]

Bye.

[B]

Sam, do you have any information over there on tiddlywinks? Was that what you're working on over there? Anytime I ask a question, Sam hunches over her laptop. I'm like, oh, good, because Sam's my Ask Jeeves.

[C]

This is the world title Winks championship in Cambridge, England.

[B]

So there's like, you're on a felt table.

[A]

What is this?

[B]

This is tiddlywinks. And you gotta pop it. It's like quarters. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, you.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay, so you use one piece of plastic to. To hit another piece of plastic into a. Yeah.

[B]

And the table has to be shot glass. The table. See how the table's, like, a little bit soft?

[A]

And I've never seen quarters in my life. It is a sober quarters.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, you don't have to be silver to play, but it's. It's quarters.

[A]

Oh, man. This episode is brought to you by Best Western Hotels and Resorts.

[B]

Okay, Kim, if I say spring break, what. What pops into your mind?

[A]

I'm not really sure I could say that this mic is hot.

[B]

Exactly. But hey, what if we can redefine what spring break looks like for today's travelers?

[A]

More relaxed, more grown up.

[B]

Yeah, like we deserve a simple trip that is meaningful but doesn't require a ton of planning.

[A]

Well, you know I love not planning and I also love love a nice getaway that's well earned.

[B]

Couldn't agree more. Spring break isn't what it used to be. It is better this spring.

[A]

Stay three nights and get a 50 Best Western gift card.

[B]

Life's a trip. Make the most of it at best Western.

[A]

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[A]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[A]

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