Debunking Health Trends with Dr. Eric Topol

Summary

Laugh Lines with Kim & Penn Holderness

Episode: Debunking Health Trends with Dr. Eric Topol

Release Date: January 20, 2026
Guests: Dr. Eric Topol (world-renowned cardiologist and researcher)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Kim and Penn Holderness bring back the ever-popular Dr. Eric Topol to cut through the noise and debunk the latest viral health trends. Known for his no-nonsense, evidence-based, and occasionally “persnickety” approach, Dr. Topol answers listener questions about everything from protein fads, weighted vests, and collagen to the prevention of Alzheimer’s, the role of functional medicine, new blood-based health tests (including “brain clocks”), and whether popular supplements and routines are worth your time or money.

The tone is light, humorous, and relatable—true to the Holderness style—with Dr. Topol offering both reassurance and tough love about trendy advice flooding our feeds and supermarket shelves.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. [09:12] Welcome Back Dr. Topol

• Dr. Eric Topol is reintroduced as an evidence-driven expert in digital health, genetics, and AI.
• The hosts share listener feedback, praising Dr. Topol’s candid myth-busting and wishing him to “stay persnickety.”

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2. [10:12] The Protein Craze: How Much Is Too Much?

Q: “How much protein is too much, and what happens if you consume too much?”

• Recommended Intake: The recommended daily allowance (RDA) is 0.8g per kg of body weight. Even doubling that for active people is a “red line.”
• Real-World Math: For a 150lb (68kg) person, about 55g is the RDA; up to 80–100g might be reasonable, but the current trend (e.g., 1g per pound) is excessive.
• Risks:
  • Too much protein isn’t stored—“you basically pee it out” ([10:39]).
  • Excess can promote inflammation, especially from animal protein ([11:57]).
  • Ultra-high-protein supplements (“David bars, plant extracts like olestra”) may cause side effects like diarrhea and unnecessary expense ([13:55], [14:12]).
• Plant vs. Animal Protein:
  • Plant-based is preferable and less likely to promote inflammation ([17:49]).
  • Nuts good for protein, but high in fats; “you need some fat too” ([18:46]).
  • Dr. Topol: “We've gotten absolutely crazy about [protein] and there's no data to support it.” ([15:38])
• Notable Quote:
  • "No, you should not take in one gram per pound… that's plenty, plenty." – Dr. Topol [13:44]

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3. [19:33] Weighted Vests and “Rucking” Craze

Q: Are weighted vests really better for bone density?

• Weighted vests (and “rucking”) are a fad, not a miracle—described as “like a cult” ([20:18]).
• Some small studies show benefits, but resistance training, planks, bands, and push-ups are equally (or more) effective, cheaper, and safer ([21:00]).
• Risks: Possible injury, especially if used carelessly or not built up gradually ([23:00]).
• Notable Quote:
  • “There are so many safer and inexpensive ways… The net benefit here is questionable—particularly when you factor in cost and injury risk.” – Dr. Topol [23:25]
• Fun Moment:
  • Kim: “I bent over to pick up laundry and I threw my back out!” ([22:52])

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4. [27:07] Busting Collagen & Supplement Myths

Q: “Does collagen protein really help with hair, skin, nails, or joints?”

• Dr. Topol’s Answer: “Very little to no evidence.” ([27:14])
• Randomized, placebo-controlled studies are lacking. Much enthusiasm is based on anecdote, not data.
• Memorable exchange:
  • Kim (joking): "They told me it would push out my wrinkles!"
  • Dr. Topol: "[Laughs] I’m going to laugh at all of these, I’m afraid." ([27:35])

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5. [28:20] Alzheimer’s Prevention & New Testing

• Listener Fears: Many concern about family history and prevention.
• Blood Markers:
  • P Tau 217 is a new blood biomarker linked to risk—if low, “confidence you’re not going to have to worry about that” for years ahead ([29:27]).
  • APOE4 genetic testing: Understand true risk, then act ([30:14]).
  • Polygenic risk scores and lifestyle interventions may “fix the brain clock”.
• Hopeful Outlook:
  • “This is going to emerge as a preventable disease.” – Dr. Topol [31:54]
  • “Just because you're at increased risk is not deterministic… you have a lot of control on this.” ([35:21])

Personal Story ([32:22]):

• Penn shares learning he has “twin copies” of APOE4—previously terrifying, now reassuring with knowledge and active intervention.

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6. [36:10] “Brain Clock” Blood Tests Explained

• Measures hundreds of plasma proteins to determine organ “pace of aging.”
• Will allow monitoring intervention effects (e.g., drugs, lifestyle) for slowing or reversing accelerated brain aging.
• “There'll be multiple ways to get accurate brain, immune system clocks... with one simple blood test and low expense.” ([37:36])

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7. [38:12] Functional Medicine vs. Evidence-Based Medicine

• Functional medicine docs often order “hundreds of tests,” sometimes without a clear clinical reason—can cause expense and anxiety with little benefit ([38:42]).
• Dr. Topol: “Targeted testing based on a person’s specific risk, not testing everything under the sun.” ([39:53])
• Exceptions: “In rare cases… if it’s a real mystery,” comprehensive testing may be justified ([40:29]).

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8. [41:38] Using AI for Lab Interpretation

• Uploading your lab results to ChatGPT or other AI can help detect “trends in the normal range that are going in the wrong direction”—potentially more helpful than static “reference” ranges.
• “It’s the trends that are really important… AI can see things we don’t.” ([41:59])

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9. [44:28] Speed Round: Health Trend Quick Takes

• Detoxing for Parasites: “Out of my range of expertise.” ([43:34])
• Exercise vs. Sleep: “Exercise is the absolute best data… Sleep not far behind. They interact.” ([44:28])
• Cortisol Tests & Supplements:
  • “Another fad… any doctor can order it, but it’s not usually worth much.”
  • “I would much more favor working with your doctor about worthwhile causes. There isn’t much to do with an abnormal cortisol.” ([46:49])
• Autophagy & Fasting:
  • “Just a biologic process.” Intermittent fasting? “Eat your evening meal not late, nothing after. That’s fine.”
  • No evidence for extreme fasting or 36-hour fasts. ([47:56])
• Oils:
  • Olive oil: “Great—should be part of your diet, not a supplement.”
  • Fish oil: Get it from food. No need for supplements that “smell like a fish.”
  • MCT oil: “Forget it.” Mediterranean diet is best. ([48:58])
• Lion’s Mane and Cognitive Supplements:
  • “No supplement has helped cognitive health. If I made a slide summarizing the evidence, it would be blank.” ([49:26], [49:48])

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10. [54:10] Odds and Ends—Trending Topics

• Zone 2 Cardio: Fine, but not superior to more strenuous exercise. “People are hawking it without data.” ([54:33])
• Fiber Maxing:
  • High-fiber foods are important (aim for 25g/day).
  • Fiber supplements can be of value, but only if you’re not getting enough from diet. ([55:13])
• Hard 75 Challenge:
  • “Looney Tunes… just made up.” But, “If it gets you moving, all the power to you.” ([56:16])
• Sober Curious Movement:
  • Drinking less is overall a good trend. Excess alcohol increases health risks, especially for sleep and, in high-risk individuals, Alzheimer’s and atrial fibrillation. ([58:53])

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11. [63:46] Medical Misinformation, Influence & Vaccines

• Dr. Topol laments the wave of “predatory” influencers pushing products without evidence, while real scientific voices get less traction.
• Brief discussion of new U.S. changes to childhood vaccine recommendations (“really unfortunate… part of the anti-science movement”) and the risks of vaccine hesitancy ([64:05]).

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12. [67:08] Long Covid Clinical Trial Update

• Over 1,000 people enrolled in a trial testing tirzepatide (Zepbound) for Long Covid.
• “It knocks out inflammation in the brain and body… it's as good a drug as we know.”
• Hopeful that even a 20–25% positive outcome would be a breakthrough for this underserved group. ([68:05])

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13. [69:15] Wrap-Up & Closing Nuggets

• Dr. Topol is celebrated for his integrity (“He’s not trying to sell you something… If he were, I’d buy it!” – Kim).
• “He looks amazing for his age… he’s living proof.”
• Penn’s “Nugs”:
  • 1. Collagen: “No evidence.”
  • 2. Brain clock blood test: promising, not expensive.
  • 3. Full body MRI: not useful unless you have clear unexplained symptoms. ([70:36])

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Most Memorable Quotes

• On protein trends:
  • “No, you should not take in one gram per pound… that's plenty, plenty.” – Dr. Topol [13:44]
• On supplements for cognitive health:
  • “If I made a slide that summarizes their evidence, it would be a blank slide.” – Dr. Topol [49:26]
• On detoxing for parasites:
  • “That’s out of my range of expertise.” – Dr. Topol [43:34]
• On the predatory state of health trends:
  • “We’re in this predatory environment where people who are highly influential are hawking things… not backed up by evidence. The credible sources don’t get the same traction.” – Dr. Topol [61:59]
• On hope in Alzheimer’s prevention:
  • “This is going to emerge as a preventable disease.” – Dr. Topol [31:54]

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Important Timestamps

• [09:12] – Dr. Topol returns; listener comments, tone set
• [10:12] – Protein needs and dangers of excess
• [19:33] – Weighted vests/rucking debate
• [27:07] – Collagen supplements: myth or magic?
• [28:20] – Preventing Alzheimer’s: genetics, blood biomarkers, and new hope
• [36:10] – “Brain clock” test explained
• [38:12] – Functional medicine vs. targeted, evidence-based care
• [41:38] – Use AI to interpret lab results and spot trends
• [44:28] – Quick-fire myth-busting: parasites, sleep vs. exercise, cortisol, oils, fasting, brain supplements
• [54:10] – Zone 2 cardio, fiber maxing, Hard 75, sober curious trends
• [63:46] – Medical misinformation, vaccines, the lure of “secrets doctors won’t tell you”
• [67:08] – Long Covid clinical trial and future of anti-inflammatory drugs

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Tone & Takeaway

This episode blends science and sanity with Holderness-style humor, ultimately advocating for curiosity, skepticism, and evidence over hype—“cutting through the BS,” as Kim puts it. Listeners are reminded to question who benefits from the latest trend, to look for data not anecdotes, and to focus on proven pillars of healthy aging: sleep, exercise, (mostly plant-based) diet, and managing true risk factors with expert help. And to laugh at ourselves—because, as Penn says, “when we age, life is like a comedy stage… and that’s why we got laugh lines.”

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For Listeners

Have a question for Dr. Topol or the show?

• Leave a voicemail at 323-364-3929
• Email: [e-mail]

Full episodes and bonus content:

• Laugh Lines with Kim & Penn Holderness

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Transcript

[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

This is restoration, not reinvention. Grab your free [e-mail] please.

[Penn Holderness]

Welcome back to the show Dr. Eric Topol.

[Kim Holderness]

This is from Kelly. Tell Dr. Topol to stay persnickety.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Very little to no evidence.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay.

[Sam Allen]

Really?

[Penn Holderness]

That's. There we go.

[Kim Holderness]

Dr. Topol.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

I'm sorry.

[Kim Holderness]

I want my new ringtone to be Dr. Topol. Going like this.

[Penn Holderness]

Oh, my God. We get older every day. Got more wrinkles.

[Kim Holderness]

That's okay.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

We're laughing.

[Penn Holderness]

When we age, life is like a comedy stage. And that's why we got laugh lines.

[Kim Holderness]

Hey, everybody, I'm Kim Holderness.

[Penn Holderness]

And I'm Penn Holderness. Thank you so much for once again joining us on Laugh Lines. Unless it's your first time, then welcome and we're so glad you're here.

[Kim Holderness]

And if it's your second time. Yeah, no kidding. No. Okay. To be clear, if you ever worked out with a Taebo set or with Billy Blanks.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Oh.

[Penn Holderness]

Taking you through it.

[Kim Holderness]

Can I tell you this? This is probably too much. My dad loved some Taebo and he, like, fractured his, like, hip doing those, like, back. No, like, a hip. Like, he had, like, a hairline fracture from doing, like, because he can get up there high with those kicks. But we were a typo house, you guys. Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

Anyway, in your home.

[Kim Holderness]

If that. If that was your life as well.

[Penn Holderness]

You'Re in the right place.

[Kim Holderness]

No, you guys didn't have any. Like, I. We had Jane Fonda. We had.

[Penn Holderness]

So you've been on the influencer train.

[Kim Holderness]

My entire family. Influence. We had the. What's the. The thigh thing. So the thigh master.

[Penn Holderness]

You had the thigh master. I. Do you know how many times My family allowed me to order anything that was seen on tv.

[Kim Holderness]

Columbia House Records.

[Penn Holderness]

No, I did that on my own and I got in trouble. Um, the answer is zero. Like any time I was like, dad, mom, they were like, is it on TV? Absolutely not. Is it ever 1, 800 number. There's no way we're ever, ever coming to your house.

[Kim Holderness]

So your parents were more like Dr. Eric Topol.

[Penn Holderness]

Yes, it's a good segue.

[Kim Holderness]

Dr. Eric Topol, this is our. He's returning to the podcast by Popular Demand. He. We had him on in 2025 where he just has a very lovely, no nonsense approach.

[Penn Holderness]

And the lovely part is that we name something that TikTok is telling us is really healthy and smart and he just goes and just, just rails on it. Research and science based does this too. And he does it in a, in a very fun way.

[Kim Holderness]

We get so many amazing comments. Thank you so much for having Dr. Topol. I am a physician and I kept nodding in agreement. Excellent discussion points. I think he is, he just wants the evidence. It is definitely worth going back and giving a listen. Our first interview with Dr. Eric Topol. But you can keep listening now if, if you want to. I will say we did get a really funny email from the laugh line.

[Penn Holderness]

Call us up and you tell us what's on your mind. I have to tell you a couple times, Dr. Topol mentioned testing done on whales and I was so confused. Why are they testing this stuff on whales? Are whales similar to us? How do they catch the whales? And then I realized he was saying testing done in Wales.

[Kim Holderness]

Like W A L E S the.

[Penn Holderness]

Country right next to England. When I realized my mistake, I doubled over and laughed hard. I got strange looks from my fellow morning walkers. This happens frequently when I listen to you two. By the way, I honestly, I bet she wasn't the only one.

[Kim Holderness]

That is my favorite bug. My brain does that too. How would they catch the whales? Do they do this and they keep them in the water? Is there a tank? Like I would have done that too.

[Penn Holderness]

Real quick, Nancy, do you know that whales blood vessels are so big that a human being could swim through them?

[Kim Holderness]

Which is convenient because sometimes I'm like, what if I got eaten by a whale? I could just swim through the blood vessels Anyway. And we got this honest voicemail from Kathy. Hi, this is Kathy. I am from Texas and I have just discovered your conversations with Dr. Eric Topol. I would never expect that information from you guys because I come to you to laugh, but I love this topic and it's something of concern to me because I'm 60 in family history. So thanks for sharing that with us.

[Penn Holderness]

Oh, Kathy, Kathy, Kathy. Family history is the real deal. And we are planning on asking Dr. Topol more about this because we got quite a few additional questions, especially about like organ clocks and brain clocks. So stay tuned and thank you so much for what you said. I feel you and I'm with you.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, we try to make you laugh but also make you think a little bit. Right? Okay, we have to read Dr. Eric Topol's very impressive.

[Penn Holderness]

He fancy.

[Kim Holderness]

He's a world renowned cardiologist, scientist and the New York Times best selling author whose work is changing how we understand health, aging and the power of technology. He is the founder and director of the Scripps Research Translational Institute which where he leads groundbreaking research in genetics, digital health and artificial intelligence. In other words, Dr. Topol is not just studying the future of medicine, he is creating it.

[Penn Holderness]

Time magazine named him one of the most influential people in healthcare. We know one of the most influential people in he's so fancy you guys. And his insights have been featured in the New York Times, the Atlantic, The Washington Post, 60 Minutes, TED talks and laugh lines with Penn and Kim Holderness.

[Kim Holderness]

I'm sure he's putting that on him. Bio.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. Dr. Topol has authored several acclaimed books including Deep Medicine and Superagers that explore how innovation can help us live longer, healthier and more connected lives. Please welcome back to the show Dr. Eric Topol.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Hello there. Great to be with you.

[Kim Holderness]

So excited. We after our first episode together we got hundreds of comments and questions from your interview. So thank you for coming back. We had several hot button issues and topics but first I want to I want to read some of our favorite comments we got. This is from Kelly. Tell Dr. Topol to stay persnickety.

[Penn Holderness]

Are you okay? Like I love that. First of all, I love that word yes and and he she means it in the nicest way possible. Like in this past podcast he gave us his real thoughts about some trends that maybe aren't as great as they're cracked up to be.

[Kim Holderness]

I know and I think that it's just so important that we cut through the BS and so keep at it.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

It's what I hear that chance to do that because if you go to a lot of other podcasts and platforms, it's hard to get what's really true out there.

[Kim Holderness]

And Lynn said just watch Dr. Tobel debunk several current health trends and I'm here to say please do more. So that's what we're doing. Should we get right to it? I mean there was two major sort of convers. Got a lot of feedback. Everything did. But the two kind of that stick out that I think we should attack first are the protein, the amount of protein and the weighted vest. Okay, so question, what is too much protein and what happens if you consume too much?

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Well, the first thing is when you consume too much, you just basically pee it out. You're basically taking in extra calories, maybe extra expense to get that. And you're not. Your body has no way to store it. Right. The second thing is if particular protein excess. And let's say you want to make the 0.8 grams per kilogram is the recommended daily allowance, so called RDA. And let's say you want to even double that, which is like that's red line. You could justify if you're lifting a lot of weight, resistance training, maybe there's something about aging that you could want to take in, maybe more protein to maintain muscle mass even that's a little fuzzy. But after you get beyond 1.5 grams per kilogram of protein, then you're getting into the red zone for promoting inflammation in your body. So not just that you can't store it, but now you can actually have an untoward effect. And that is especially the case if it's taking an animal protein like red meat protein and other sources. So too much protein is bad for you. And we're in this protein craze where people are taking ridiculous amounts of protein well above the one point. Let's say five. So let's say you're 70 kilo person.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, just say it in pounds because math is hard. So let's say I weigh 150 pounds.

[Penn Holderness]

We as Americans refuse, choose to go by the more popular standards of weight, weight and systems and measurements, as Nate Bergazzi showed us on SNL. But yeah, sorry, yeah.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

So let's say 70 pounds, 2.2 multiplied. Right again.

[Kim Holderness]

Math, Dr. Topol math.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah. 150 ish. Right.

[Kim Holderness]

Say I weigh 150.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yes, yeah, 150. Okay. So if you want to have, if you're going to get one gram per kilogram of that, you know that's going to be at the most. You're talking about a hundred grams of protein a day. That's a lot.

[Kim Holderness]

So I will tell you that there's a lot of. This all came about because there's a lot out there that says that I should be having as a woman a gram per pound.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Right, Right. Yeah, that's what Peter Attia espouses without data. So there are no data to support that. Even people think, oh, well, maybe if they're Olympiad weightlifters, they need to do that, like the Terminator, Schwarzenegger profile. But there's not even data for that that is justified. But no, you should not take in one gram per pound. What I was just saying is the maximum for you, if you're talking about 150, it's. It's 90 to 100 grams. That's plenty. Plenty.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

For that weight. So this is the problem of, of protein overdose. And by the way, a lot of these people that are pushing the protein are also selling it, right?

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

So you got these David bars. Like, you know, they're, they're really hot out there and they, you get two of those bars and you're probably going to have diarrhea. You know, this is ridiculous stuff because they use this plant extract like olestra.

[Penn Holderness]

Which we know that'll get you running.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah, yeah. So maybe if you're constipated and you want to eat a lot of David bars. But no. And then the powders that we've seen have contamination. This is leading to all sorts of problems and expense. I mean, these extra protein sources are really an issue. So we've gotten absolutely crazy about this and there's no data to support it. I mean, even going to the, for the 150 pound person to go to 100 grams is a lot. I mean, it's perfectly fine to be at 80, which is what you probably would get normally in your diet.

[Penn Holderness]

All right, so the reason why animal fats, I imagine, are dangerous is because animal protein. Sorry? Well, animal protein is because of the animal fats, because you're taking all this protein in and you're not getting the protein, but you are getting the fat. You are getting all of that other stuff. It's staying there. So I understand what he's saying there.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

But also the, the protein itself, interestingly, when it's been put into animal models, it can directly. The lysine component, that protein amino acid, that can directly stimulate inflammation, which was a surprise and it's a concern. It hasn't been as well demonstrated in people, but the animal models are pretty impressive. So it's both, I would say. Penn.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay, I want to make sure, because I do work out, I take a little more protein than most because of that, especially on days that I do heavy lifting. I want to make sure that the condition of perimenopause and menopause does not require a ton more protein.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

No.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Let'S say if you want to accepted the minimum allowance. I mean the daily allowance, not minimum, but the recommended. If you want to go up from that to some extent, but not to what some of these folks are advocating for various reasons like you said. But yeah, we are in the midst of a craze. It will eventually settle down because it's unfounded. But in the meantime, people are making a lot of money and paying out a lot of profits.

[Kim Holderness]

Protein. Okay.

[Penn Holderness]

And getting diarrhea from alestra.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, so hold on. So the RDA. Tell me, tell me the math of the RDA again. What is it? It's.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Oh, it's 0.8 grams per kilogram, which if you take that divided by, you know, multiplied by 2.2. So that would be per pound I had made it.

[Penn Holderness]

That's even less than half. That would be less than half because the kilograms is 2.2 pounds. So. Sorry, I'm doing math right now.

[Kim Holderness]

Right now it's like A Beautiful Mind in my head.

[Penn Holderness]

So if Kim, if Kim weighs 150, you're. You're going to divide that by 2.2, which is about 70.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

Then point eight of 70 is more like 5.6. Like point. Yeah. So that's. You're like closer to 55 to 60 grams. Sorry for nerding out.

[Kim Holderness]

I know, but I just want a math equation that's easy. And right now I feel like I'm doing it. I'm doing physics.

[Penn Holderness]

I think it's about a third.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, about a third.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay.

[Kim Holderness]

A third plus a little of pounds. So if I weigh at 150.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

That's right. That's exactly right. So you know, if you were taking in 50 grams at 150 pounds, that would be the RDA. And if you want to amp that up to 70, 80, that's fine.

[Kim Holderness]

But not. But no need to eat 150 grams of protein.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Oh my gosh. No.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

This is crazy stuff.

[Kim Holderness]

And real quick, does it make a difference? Is it more desirable to have plant based protein? Should it be a mix? Tell me.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah, the plant based protein is going to be protective against that potential of inflammation. Promoting inflammation.

[Penn Holderness]

That's. Yeah, nuts.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah, nuts. I'm big on those and it's a great protein source. But no, the other problem is if you go after this protein and that's why they made the David bars, it's pretty hard to get a lot of protein extra if you're not bringing in a lot of calories and so that's a lot of people that are going to gain weight by this protein craze too, which doesn't help the body either. So. Yeah, that I think is something to keep an eye on as well is that you're taking in, you know, just excess of calories. But there's lots of good sources of animal. I mean a plant based protein and certainly nuts are high on the list.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. But issue with nuts, there's a lot of fat. So why don't you view nuts as a protein, personally, as a perimenopausal woman? I'm just saying this depends.

[Penn Holderness]

Fair.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

I mean, you need some fat too. Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

No, no, no, no. But I don't, I don't eat nuts for the protein.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah. Do you eat tofu?

[Sam Allen]

I.

[Kim Holderness]

So Dr. Topol. I don't, I have like a texture thing with tofu. Like I just can't, I can't get. So I. The only plant based protein I will do are the powders, like the pea protein or whatever. I'll do a smoothie with that.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

I'm with you on the texture of tofu. If you doctor it up, you know.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh yeah. Like you have to doctor it up.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

By the way, there's other good sources of protein, you know, like salmon and.

[Kim Holderness]

You know, chicken and like a chicken breast, right? Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Low in fat or if the fat like in salmon, it's, it's good of high omega 3 fat. So it's, it's, it's another good source.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Penn Holderness]

Speaking of things that make money and are trendy, we talked about weighted vests last time.

[Kim Holderness]

People had feelings.

[Penn Holderness]

People had feelings. Now listen, you, you weren't saying weighted vests are going to kill you. You were saying that the benefits that a lot of people hocking them, the benefits that these people are promoting are for the most part inaccurate. And so let's start with this. How does weighted vests versus weightlifting differ in promoting bone density? Because that's a big part of what people are talking about.

[Kim Holderness]

Big buzzword.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah. Well, first of all, talk about a buzz. This thing rucking.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

It's out of control. I mean, you go out there and you see all these people walking around their weight events. I mean, this is ridiculous. It's like a cult.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, I got one.

[Kim Holderness]

I love you so much.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Is it bad for you? I'm not saying it's bad for you, but it's a craze, which is not. I mean, there's some small studies that show, like you said, Penn, that it's Good for promoting bone health. But you get that also from resistance training. Yeah, you can get that through many different ways. You don't have to go get a weighted vest and walk around with that. And by the way, you know some of the craze about checking your VO2 max.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Which I feel is without basis. I mean, that is a stupid metric because you can't really get that. You know, like, for example, if you have an A iPhone, it'll give you a VO2 max based on your walking. Well, if you were rucking, your VO2 max will plummet because you can't walk at the same speed with this weight on your back. So if you think, oh, wow, my VO2 Max is my magical metric, well, you're going to ruin that one. But no, I mean, it's okay if people want to do this, but this idea that it's some unique. A way to promote bone health or get a core exercise, there's so much better ways that are without any expense. You know, things like planks, push ups, you know, push ups, sit ups, you know, bands. There's so many ways. I mean, you can get a set of bands for, you know, $9. How much does a weighted vest cost?

[Kim Holderness]

Right?

[Penn Holderness]

More. Way more. I mean, they're. They're depending on who's selling them. There was like, I did some research and there were some that are in the $400 range.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Oh, my God. I knew it was high, but I didn't.

[Kim Holderness]

I think there are. I mean, listen, I can be influenced, Dr. Topol. So I did see some ads and I didn't. I did not buy them, but there was one. It kind of looked nice and it zipped up and so. So what I took from our initial conversation is it's not that it's like bad for you. It's just not going to get you the benefits that other things could. And like, what I love about how you communicate with people is like, just be curious about who's benefiting from this. And. And in your. So it. There is potential. We. We've heard a lot of people, they injure themselves with the way that I threw my back out because I was wearing it. I'm like, oh, I'll just wear it around the house while I'm doing something. I bent over to pick up laundry and I threw my back.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

So like, oh, yeah, yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

No, be aware.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah, like, yeah, there is potential harm. I mean, it could do for your back, for your knees, Achilles tendons, you know, you can definitely take a hit from it. So it isn't like it's, you know, a perfectly safe means. And of course, if you're going to do it, you got to do it gradually. You can't just like take the big weights.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

And you know, got there. So. But I think that the, the net benefit here is questionable, particularly when you put in context the cost and also the fact that you can do this through so many other safer and inexpensive ways to do achieve the same benefit.

[Penn Holderness]

So, Dr. Topol, I got several pages of questions here and.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Oh good. I love, I love your question.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. I'm going to give you as much or as little time as you want to answer these, but know that there's a few, quite a few. So if we can answer these expeditiously, we can get to more of them.

[Kim Holderness]

More on this after these words. Okay, quick show of hands. Have you ever gone to the doctor with a very real concern and left thinking, cool. So I guess I just imagined all of that.

[Penn Holderness]

Oh yeah, you've told me about this, Kim. The, the classic medical shrug.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. And if you're in midlife and feeling dismissed, unheard or just completely, completely over the healthcare system, you're deeply not alone.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. For years, women dealing with perimenopause and menopause have basically been told to just deal with it, which feels unscientific.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. And frustrating and exhausting and honestly kind of rage inducing. So. Especially when you learn that 75% of women seeking care for menopause and perimenopause are still left totally untreated.

[Penn Holderness]

And that's not because women aren't advocating for themselves. It's because the system is, has not been built for them.

[Kim Holderness]

Which is why I love the next part. This show is sponsored by MIDI Health. MIDI is a women's telehealth clinic focused specifically on midlife, founded and backed by world class leaders in women's health.

[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

From Wendy. Is there any real evidence that collagen based protein actually helps with hair, skin, nails and joint pain?

[Dr. Eric Topol]

That's a great one. High use, very little to no evidence.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay.

[Kim Holderness]

Really?

[Penn Holderness]

That's. There we go.

[Kim Holderness]

Dr. Topol, I'm sorry, I really thought I bought some supplements. They're going to get here soon because they told me it would push out my wrinkles.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah, I'm going to laugh at all.

[Penn Holderness]

Of these I'm afraid. It's always fun when we find one that works though. Like last time it was the.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Oh yeah. No, they have real evidence. When you talk about evidence, you want randomized trials with a placebo collagen. Right. That looks everything like that. And those trials are. They. They don't exist. You know, unfortunately the use is so out of proportion to the tiny little supportive, questionable evidence.

[Kim Holderness]

So right now there's probably some anecdotes, anecdotal evidence that they're quoting is that. Yeah. So that I would. So somebody out there has benefited and has their wrinkles pushed out from collagen. I think that's enough for me. I'm kidding. But maybe not. Okay. Anyway, continue.

[Penn Holderness]

From Tricia. I'm in my 50s. I have a strong family history of Alzheimer's. So I'm feeling you, Tricia. I've been learning about what I can do for prevention. My blood work shows no inflammation markers, which is great. Right. We know this, but I am in pain. Is arthritis caused by inflammation or isn't it caused by inflammation? I'm trying to get more active, but I cannot. What can I do?

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Well, I guess the question is, is it specified to certain joints? Yeah, you know, that's because if it's an arthritic knee or hip or something like that, you know, that needs to be attended to. The problem is chronic inflammation of a joint isn't good for you. And if you're high risk for Alzheimer's, it's just not going to help that matter. And as we discussed previously, if you really are concerned about family history, it's good to check a P Tau 217. They're available. They have been for a while now, a couple of years. And that will, if that's really low, that'll give you extra confidence that in the next 15 years you're not going to have to worry about that. So I think the key here is getting to the root cause of the arthritis.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay. Yeah. And she did say she's showing no inflammation markers with her blood work. So she's looked. So that is good news because that's good.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

But it could be. It could be localized, not necessarily in the blood, you know, and that's the. So even localized, significant arthritis. Something to look into. Why.

[Kim Holderness]

So that brings up from Kelly. She says, I also have a lot of Alzheimer's and dementia, my family. But I've always been nervous to get the test to see if I have the markers. If I get a bad result, what could. Would you advise me to do right away to try to prevent it?

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah, that's a great one because we're in a new era now where that. Cassandra, I don't want to know because I can't do anything. Which was, of course, reasonable. Now you can do things.

[Penn Holderness]

That's right.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

So we are starting in the next few weeks the first prevent Alzheimer's trial. And in that trial, we're getting after a person's at high risk by family history, checking their APOE 4 to see if they have one or two copies. We're also doing a polygenic risk score because there's other genes besides ApoE4 that are implicated. And so people in the really high risk group then will check P Tau217. And then we put them randomized into a trial. And half of them are getting intensive continuous coaching for lifestyle factors, and the other half are just getting some Educational materials and we're going to have 1200 people enrolled starting in February and hopefully we'll get in the year. Whether we fix the brain clock which shows accelerated pace of aging in those people and the P Tau 217 and other markers bring them down. And if we can do that, then we've iced a lifestyle story. And this is not just more physical activity, you know, getting to the optimal weight, eating the right foods, sleep quality, you know, all the right things that we know are anti inflammatory that help prevent Alzheimer's. But then we start working with drugs that have a really good promise for helping to interfere with the process of brain inflammation like the GLP1 drugs and others. So it's exciting. We're going to do a big dentist in the years ahead to prevent Alzheimer's. I am confident this is going to emerge as a preventable disease. After decades of all these drugs that were tested that were failing, this is going to be turned around because we now have the new biomarkers, we've got the brain and immune system clocks that we never had before. And we've got these drugs, new drugs that are emerging that are potent brain anti inflammatory. So it's an exciting time to get on top of Alzheimer's.

[Penn Holderness]

If I can just jump in and add a personal answer to this question to Kelly. Kelly, I was you. I was you one year ago. I was terrified. I was pretty sure that I was going to have some evidence of at least one copy of Apoe 4 because both of my, my parents have Alzheimer's. I did not want to take the test. I had great people like Dr. Richard Isaacson and my wife basically pushed me into the doctor's office to get the blood test. I got it back and got what I thought was the worst possible news, that I have twin copies of Apoe 4. We're like 10x more likely historically to get Alzheimer's. Here's a couple of things I'm going to tell you. I'm sleeping better at night than I was before because of what I've learned. Since these markers not only are very real, you can reverse and improve these markers with some of the current medications. If you start looking at it like managing your cholesterol of the brain, it makes a huge difference. People like Dr. Topol are going to kick Alzheimer's ass over the next few years. But you're not gonna figure out how to do it until you take the test because they've gotta know what you're working with. You heard him say this trial that he's Doing is for people who have certain APOE4 genetic markers. I happen to qualify because I've got both, which sucks. But now I am on a different lifestyle train, I'm on a different medication train, and I guarantee you my odds are way better than 10x just because of that.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Absolutely. No, you are the perfect spokesperson for this new movement. I mean, nobody can articulate it as well. And why people should know. I mean, you don't have to go out and do any of these tests if you don't have a family history, but if you have a family history of bonafide Alzheimer's, that would be a reason to check APOE 4, get a polygenic risk score, and if those are abnormal P tau. And Richard Isaacson is a great neurologist, you know, one of the country's treasures in this area, and he similarly agrees with this optimism that we've been discussing.

[Kim Holderness]

And I, I do get, I do get it. That before. And this. I mean, we've been married now for 20 years. I'm doing okay. Math is hard.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Sorry, you started when you got married at age 16.

[Kim Holderness]

Exactly. I was 12. No. So for 20 years. I, I mean, they, they didn't have access to a lot of this stuff 20 years ago. But I've been asking him, like, to do the most, to find out the most. And in his defense, like, he didn't really want to know because the answer 20 years ago was like, well, what am I going to do about it? Like, yeah. And now. But now, even if it's just medications. Yes. And managing your cholesterol and the whole thing, but even lifestyle, to your point, I mean, there's so many lifestyle things you could do, and to feel like you're in control of is a different vibe in our house. And honestly, Dr. Topol, like, having conversations with you are a part of that because you've given family hope that we just really didn't have. So.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I. I'm an Apoe 4 carrier and, you know, I've been concerned about that. I've known about that for years. But when I got a P Tau 217 and it was really low, you know, near close to zero, that gave me a whole new outlook that, you know, just because you, as, as Penn mentioned, just because you're at increased risk is not a fatalistic, deterministic thing. Brain, you have a lot of control on this. And if we now have these tests that are available, not just the P Tau markers, but soon, the brain clock this year, and it gives you a whole different outlook about your risk. It, it could actually be quite low even if you are, you know, carrying one of these markers.

[Penn Holderness]

Can we talk a little bit more about the brain clock? Like how is, how is the brain clock different from the P Tau tests?

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah, very different because there you're looking at a group of hundreds of plasma proteins out of 11,000 that can be measured with a couple of milliliters of blood. And they have been partitioned to track with each organ for the pace of aging. So people with Alzheimer's who are destined to get Alzheimer's in the years ahead, they have a more rapid pace of aging of their brain. And what's great, just like Penn mentioned about, you follow the, like the LDL cholesterol for the heart, we're going to be following not just making the diagnosis of risk, but following the benefit of lifestyle or drugs, other interventions because the brain clock goes into slowing mode when you are making the right interventions. And the P Tau 217 and other markers go way down. So we don't even have just markers now. We have tracking mechanisms through these measurements. So the brain clock, there's a couple of companies that are just getting out a Stanford spin out teal that we're working with in that trial that we're getting started very soon. But in the next year there'll be multiple ways to get accurate brain, immune system clocks, heart, artery and other organs, all with one simple blood test. Low expense too.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, so this, this question's a good one because I have this question. Well, what is a functional medicine, doctor? Are they better than primary care? Also, blood tests were mentioned several times on the show and I've seen ads for several companies that do 50 to 100 plus markers. Are these worthwhile? So I, I think I know the difference between functional and, and just a general practitioner, but I want you to explain it. And they are more expensive. Do you think it's worth it? And then you talked a lot about markers and tests. If I walked into my regular doctor, they're going to say like, I don't know what the hell you're talking about. So talk us.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah, no, really good question. I don't, you know, support overall the functional medicine movement because a lot of that is not evidence based. And it's unfortunate because a lot of things that are being pushed through that in general, there may be some specific exceptions are not, you know, with data. Now, with respect to, let's say this company function. All right, it's a popular company, it's.

[Kim Holderness]

Being pushed a lot.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah, yeah. Mark Hyman, I know him. He's a friend. I used to be at Cleveland Clinic, and I was there many years ago. He wanted me to join the board of that company. I told him, sorry, I can't do that. And he's pushing Hunter. Hundreds of tests. Hundreds. And also even a total body mri. They acquired this company, Ezra, and this is, this is the wrong way to approach it because you're getting a lot of tests that you don't need and are going to cause false positives and get you all worried. And you're paying to get worried. It's crazy. What we're talking about, what we just were talking about, is very specific testing because of good rationale, not blitzkrieg of every test known to mankind, which is kind of what the function approach is. So I think, I'm not saying that function isn't trying to help people, but I think it's the wrong approach. It should be targeted testing based on the person's specific risk, not just testing everything under the sun and doing total body MRIs, which have no big basis. So that's, that's how I see it. And that's what I wrote about a lot in super agers.

[Kim Holderness]

A devil's advocate. So Trisha, who had asked about her, you know, the, the markers are not showing inflammation, but she's in pain. Wouldn't att if she went to Function Health and got, you know, just through every, all the spaghetti at the wall, maybe something comes back. So, like, in that case, I might be influenced and hit by on something like that. I might do a total body mri because there's a symptom that nobody can figure out.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

I think that's an exception that you're bringing up that is potentially worthwhile.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

When it's a real mystery and you have just no good idea what's going on, and you kind of do a, a total body, total blood test. Exploration. Exploration, if you will. It's like exploratory surgery. Yeah. I mean, in rare cases, maybe that's reasonable. Yes.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. And I would say the functional approach, as I've experienced it, I think it's more for me, what I've experienced is I, I, my levels and my blood, or they're like, they're on like the high end of average or low end of average. And a traditional doctor was like, like, oh, you're fine because you're one point from being high. Whereas, like a functional doctor, how I was interacting, it was like, okay, let's take this because my cholesterol is, like, high.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

And so, like, a functional doctor paid more attention to it. So I think there's.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, I think you're describing two different types of healthcare. One that's governed and one that's not. Right. Like, yeah, there's. There's certain things that doctors like, they look, in order for them to do this, they have to have a barrier.

[Kim Holderness]

Because, yeah, you can't sit there for an hour with everybody under this, like, traditional insurance model, which is like, oh, my God free.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Oh, God. Anyway, well, you're bringing up something important. The length of time physician spends with a patient is critical. And so functional medicine docs, I give them credit, they spend a lot more time.

[Kim Holderness]

You're paying for it. But, yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

And the same way if you get your own concierge doctor that, you know, in a program time, the gift of time with, you know, being able to discuss your concerns and all that, that is really important. And that's why, part of that popularity, the other thing, I would just say you are really touching on a key point about labs. But what you want to do is put your labs into OpenAI, ChatGPT, or Cloud or Gemini of Google. Because even if your labs are in the normal range, what you want to look at are trends. And you can have trends in the normal range that are going in the wrong direction and that, that, you know, you look at it, the doctor looks at it, everything looks fine. But it's the trends that are really important. You can pick up all sorts of things that AI can see that we don't in the medical community these days.

[Kim Holderness]

That is. That is a very good point and a part where you need to advocate for yourself in that way. I mean, it'd be great if the doctors had a model in which that was being triggered, but really, you need to know what your own numbers are.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Put them all in there and you'll get for free. You know, you can do that and you get all sorts of useful information. You can even put your genome from ancestry, DNA.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh, really?

[Dr. Eric Topol]

I know. It'll give you all the analysis of your genome. I mean. Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. Brooks asks, what do you think about detoxing for parasites? That's another thing that's.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Oh, I don't know. That's out of my. Yeah, that's my range of.

[Kim Holderness]

There's. There's a. There's many people that are saying a lot of symptoms that are like, it's worms, it's parasites, it's. And there's a lot of things that are being sold to get rid of.

[Penn Holderness]

Like, you, like you, you can find them on a full moon, stuff like that. I've heard that before. I, someone at some point point in my life was like, a little worms will help you. Like, I've had people say that to me, but it can't be right.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Right.

[Penn Holderness]

This was like the 80s, you know.

[Kim Holderness]

The 80s, if you ate Pop Rocks and coke, your stomach was gonna explode.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

So here's my favorite one. This is from Diana. I don't know how you're gonna answer this, but it's a very real question. I know sleep and exercise are both important, but for us parents who are still busy with young kids at home, if we have to pick one which is better, pick one.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah, well, they're interactive. The more you exercise, usually the better sleep you're going to get. As long as you don't exercise too late in the day. Yeah, I mean they, you get two for one, you know, just by doing the exercise. I would say exercise is the one that has the absolute best data. Okay. Sleep is not far behind.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. And yeah, if you make it a point to try to work out like early in the day with kids, that might actually accidentally help your sleep.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah, exactly.

[Kim Holderness]

But I do, especially with young kids at home. I remember having a two year old, a four year old, and there was not a, like we were working and there was not a consistent childcare situation with preschool. And it was literally, I could go to bed or I could sleep an extra hour in the morning, or I could wake up and like get on the treadmill in the basement. I mostly chose sleep.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, sleep is okay. You get really good sleep. You know, that's going to be helpful too, too. So if you, if you can't get the physical activity, then that's going to be a bonus too.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. Nicole asked. This is another buzzword that is being said to a lot of women my age. Nicole asked. I think I have high cortisol, but I have no idea how to test for it. And if supplements that claim to help can any advice. So like a lot of my issues right now, according to the Internet, are being blamed on having high cortisol levels. Is this a thing and is there a way to test for it? Is there a way to help it?

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah, well, there's a way to test for it. Any doctor can order a cortisol test. You might even be able to get it direct to consumer. Has to be done, you know, fasting in the morning. I don't think it's worth much. I, I think this is just one more of these fads that are probably going to fade. I mean, we, we do know hormones. Cortisol is the adrenal gland hormone are really important and they play a big role in women's health with respect to premenopausal, perimenopausal, menopausal. But it isn't necessarily the cortisol that's the key. It's really much more related to index to estrogen. So this may be misplaced. I would much more favor interacting with a qualified gynecologist and primary care physician about whether it's worthwhile or not. But I, you know, what are you going to do with the abnormal cortisol? And especially it's only at one moment in time, that particular morning that you get an assay. So I, I'm not really thinking that, that in, in the vast majority of people that's going to be worthwhile.

[Kim Holderness]

They do sell a lot of supplements. I will let you know that. And I have not purchased them. I told you that.

[Penn Holderness]

What?

[Kim Holderness]

I know, it's huge, but I, Yeah, I just feel like. And moments are like, definitely my cortisol's high. Like my body's on high alert. Well, like big stuff was happening, so.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Well, that's of course a natural physiologic thing that, you know, fluctuations in cortisol with stress. But to take supplements. No, how about the things that really we know, work, exercise, physical activity, healthy diet, that kind of stuff and like.

[Kim Holderness]

Trying to reduce stress? Yes, doctor.

[Penn Holderness]

This guy has four questions. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you ten words or less for each question. I bet you can do it. If anyone can do it, it's Dr. Topol.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh my God.

[Penn Holderness]

So Dr. Topol, 10 words or less on autophagy.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Autophagy.

[Kim Holderness]

Autophagy.

[Penn Holderness]

Oh, God, I don't even know what it is. Autophagy. Excuse me?

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah, no, that's just a biologic process of the cell getting rid of stuff. That's okay.

[Kim Holderness]

A lot of intermittent fasting talk. It promoted.

[Penn Holderness]

So.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah. And again, my view of intermittent fasting is eat your evening meal, you know, not late, and just don't eat anything after that till the following morning. That's a very good intermittent fasting.

[Penn Holderness]

Perfect. What about 36 hour fasting?

[Dr. Eric Topol]

There's no data to support it except the, the limited weight loss benefit. Okay. But there's lots of other ways to achieve weight loss besides that.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay. Olive oil, slash fish oil, slash MCT oil supplements.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Olive oil is great and not as a supplement. You know, it should Be part of your diet. Really? Fish oil again? Part of your diet? You don't need to take fish oil and smell like a fish.

[Penn Holderness]

It does smell funny.

[Kim Holderness]

It does smell funny.

[Penn Holderness]

It smells so funny. Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

And then the other one, Forget it. That's alien. So. No, I mean the Mediterranean diet is what we have. The best randomized trial, all sorts of observational, huge supportive evidence. And that's of course centered on olive oil as being part of it. And omega 3 oil from food, not.

[Kim Holderness]

From supplement from a teacher. What about lion's mane supplements for cognitive support? I feel like I asked this.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, I know. I can't wait.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

There's no supplement that has help cognitive health, despite what you see on tv. All these things that are advertised that. You know, if I made a slide that summarizes their evidence, it would be a blank slide.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Sorry.

[Kim Holderness]

Keep being persnickety. I'm gonna make you a T shirt.

[Penn Holderness]

I want to see that. I want to see his next keynote. He's gonna be. Can we bring up the cognitive slide?

[Kim Holderness]

The evidence?

[Sam Allen]

Yep.

[Kim Holderness]

It's blank.

[Penn Holderness]

Dr. Topol, the slide is blank.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Comprehensive summary of supplements that improve cognitive health.

[Penn Holderness]

Well, Mr. Topol, that's a blank slide. And then he just. Eric just stares at him.

[Kim Holderness]

More on this after these words.

[Penn Holderness]

January is already in full swing and our schedule is quickly becoming booked and busy.

[Kim Holderness]

When I need a restful escape, but I don't have time to go anywhere, I turn to my trusty comfy bed.

[Penn Holderness]

You sure do, honey.

[Kim Holderness]

I love it.

[Penn Holderness]

You take to the bed when you need it. After upgrading to Bowen Branch's signature sheets, you have found a relaxing escape that you don't have to leave home for.

[Kim Holderness]

Exactly. I love it so much. And it's made even better by adding their coveted waffle bed blanket. With layers and layers of the finest organic cotton, our bed is now a deeply comforting retreat that's there anytime I need it.

[Penn Holderness]

Bolen Branch's signature sheets and waffle bed blanket are a must have bedding combination. They are both loved by millions of sleepers and woven by artisans with the finest 100% organic cotton and highest level of craftsmanship.

[Kim Holderness]

We can confirm these sheets get softer with every wash and with over 300 color combinations, they are designed to mix and match.

[Penn Holderness]

So discover a softness beyond your wildest dreams. With bowl and branch, get 15% off your first order plus free shipping at bowlandbranch.com Holderness with code holderness.

[Kim Holderness]

That's Boland Branch. B O L L a n d branch.com Holderness code Holderness to unlock 15% off exclusions apply. This episode is sponsored by GAB.

[Penn Holderness]

As we know, the youth mental health crisis is all over the news and we know that social media is a huge driving factor.

[Kim Holderness]

Did you know the US Surgeon General warns that kids who spend more than three hours a day online are twice as likely to have depression and anxiety?

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, we are huge advocates for prioritizing mental health and that includes monitoring the time that we and our kids spend in front of devices.

[Kim Holderness]

I personally keep my phone out of the bedroom at night so I don't spend hours mindlessly scrolling rather than getting a good night's sleep.

[Penn Holderness]

Here's the good news though. A company called GAB has solved that problem by doing something no one else is doing. Their approach is tech and Steps.

[Kim Holderness]

Tech and Steps works by providing kids safe phones and watches tailored to every age, offering the right device place at the right time.

[Penn Holderness]

From GPS tracking enabled watches for young kids to increased features and parent enabled apps on the phones for tweens and teens, each device grows with your child.

[Kim Holderness]

Bottom line, you don't have to give your kids a device that was made for an adult. Get them Gab, which keeps them socially connected safely.

[Penn Holderness]

Use our code to get the best deal on something that'll make parenting easier and give you some peace of mind. Visit gab.com holderness and use that code. Hold Holderness for a special offer that's.

[Kim Holderness]

G a b b.com holderness new year same kid chaos. But what if your pantry could actually make life easier this year?

[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

Running a home is already enough. You shouldn't also have to be the ingredient Detective.

[Penn Holderness]

Thrive Market does the vetting for you. With 1,000 plus restricted ingredients, vetted brands and trusted staples, Thrive's app makes it.

[Kim Holderness]

Easy to shop for your family's needs without endless label reading. Use their 90 plus filters that include high protein, low sugar, gluten free and plant based.

[Penn Holderness]

Thrive Market makes it easy with thousands of healthier swaps of the things your kids love like Google's Mac and cheese, Collie Puffs, Olipops or other low sugar swaps and fruit snacks with simple ingredients.

[Kim Holderness]

Now I can say goodbye to the mean mom syndrome when I say yes to more nutritious versions of my kids favorite foods.

[Penn Holderness]

Join Thrive Market with our link thrive market.com holderness for 30% off your first order plus a free $60 gift.

[Kim Holderness]

We got some other questions that they just people want you to weigh in on. So I can answer this for you. The neuro branded supplements that are said to help with brain health and function, I'm guessing you're a no on.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

I'm a no on that.

[Kim Holderness]

Are you? No on that.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Okay, bring me the data. Yeah, yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

These are all health trends by the way. All of these zone to cardio. You ever hear of zone two cardio?

[Kim Holderness]

No. That's what I'm trying to do. Moderate intensity that you're supposed to be working in Zone two. Moderate intensity, that's going to be low and slow. I'm not supposed to be doing that.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Well, you can. I mean it's better than nothing. But every activity plot, you know, physical activity for benefit. If you go, you know, from moderate to more rigorous, it shows more benefit. Doesn't mean you have to go to, you know, crazy level. But going to zone two, which is just a minimal level heart rate increase, you know, if you want to do that, that's fine, it's still beneficial. But to say that that's more beneficial than more activity, that's. There's just nothing to substantiate that. But there are people out there hawking it, that's for sure.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. This, they're saying, calling it fiber maxing with like.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

What, what do you think? And this is eating high fiber foods and taking fiber supplements by eating high.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Fiber foods is really important. It's. It's the one thing that people don't get enough of like 25 grams a day of fiber. So yeah, that would be good. Taking a fiber supplement of. If you're going to put in the list of supplements something that has some value. If you're not getting enough fiber in your diet, that's something to consider. But I would first go with trying to find ways to get better fiber in your diet, which you're going to get a lot more when you have a largely planted plant based diet.

[Penn Holderness]

All right, here's one I've never heard of. The hard 75.

[Kim Holderness]

Wait, you've never heard about this?

[Penn Holderness]

Nope.

[Kim Holderness]

This is what I don't.

[Penn Holderness]

I'm not on the same TikTok channels that you're on, babe. Like I'm not. Two 45 minute workouts, one outside drink, one gallon of water, read 10 pages of a nonfiction book and take a daily progress photo. Failing any task means starting over.

[Kim Holderness]

And it's for 75.

[Penn Holderness]

For 75 straight days.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Oh my God. Came up with this one according to.

[Penn Holderness]

Kim, a man, but I have never heard of it.

[Kim Holderness]

Before, I'm assuming it was a man. Is it a man? Sam? Hold on. She. She's looking.

[Penn Holderness]

Why you all got excused.

[Kim Holderness]

Like, oh, it is such a man. Yeah, it's a dude, so. Okay. All right. Okay, Doc, I want your input, and then I have opinions. Okay. So what. What do you think of something like this?

[Dr. Eric Topol]

I mean, it's just, you know, just make it up. It's like, you know, this is a Looney Tunes. I. I don't know. I mean, if it. Show me data that. That is better than a lot of other things that we've talked about. Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

You know what I appreciate about this? I've not done it, and I'm not gonna do it. I love a soft 75, maybe, but I do. See, I used to be like this. If I had a very specific goal and, like, very specific rules, and so then I would. I would be more down to follow them. So I would do this as opposed to nothing. So I don't think it's. I've. I've seen a lot of people go through this on social media. I don't think it's hurt anybody. I just think that for me, if I messed up. I'm using air quotes here. And, like, didn't get a workout in, I would feel immense shame, and it would feel very punishing. But for some people, it was a huge transformation.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah, I get that. I mean, if it gets you moving.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

I mean, if it's a motivational thing. But all I'm just saying is why that versus, you know, all the other things that we would advocate for. For that. So. Yeah, but if it. If it inspires people to do more activity, all the power to them.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. I like the gamifying of things. I will say that for it. So it depends on each person. Like, maybe like that sort of record. That's part of it. I joined a gym where they have a leaderboard, and that's, like, completely changed my life for the better. And I'm not. I'm very rarely in zone two. I'm like. I'm in zone whatever. The ones are above zone two.

[Kim Holderness]

That's where he told me, yeah, you.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Won'T be in any leaderboard in zone two.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, yeah. He told me about his gym. I'm like, maybe I'll go. I need to really work on, you know, building muscle. And he told me about the leaderboard. I'm so competitive knowing I wouldn't be on the leaderboard. I'm like, I can't go. I can't go because I'M not going to be on the leaderboard.

[Penn Holderness]

You'll be on the leaderboard. You just.

[Kim Holderness]

It'll be at the bottom of it. Screw that. Okay. The sober, curious movement, drinking less or drinking more non alcoholic beverages, that's probably a good movement.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

And the reason for that is, as you know, the data that's come out for alcohol, it isn't, you know, positive for the most part. It is scary that people who have moderate drinking, a couple of drinks a week, there's nothing to really worry about there. But the more you drink alcohol, then you start to see some risk, at least by certain careful analyses. Now we're seeing less people drink alcohol and more people taking marijuana, right?

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

I don't know if that's a good trade off. But at any rate, having some limits on alcohol, for one, it does interrupt deep sleep, quality of sleep, for sure. We know that in most people and otherwise, if you are at high risk for things like Alzheimer's, it's not good to be drinking excessively. And other diseases as well, like atrial fibrillation, a condition which is very common. You don't want to be a big drinker and be at high risk for atrial fibrillation because that's not going to help you to get in that rhythm and all the things that can happen with that rhythm. So overall, it's a pretty good thing that we consume less. That's the country's trend right now.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

But we're consuming less from being excess high excess. So, yeah, I wouldn't stop drinking some alcohol. I just think that keeping it on the lower end is better.

[Kim Holderness]

I will say we were at Total Wine, like the holidays, and we were hosting, so we, you know, we got a. Like a case of something. The lovely woman at the checkout said that I think like 30% of their business now. Are those CBD THC drinks?

[Penn Holderness]

Yep. Oh, wow.

[Kim Holderness]

So would you if. If both things are on the table, do you prefer one or are you. Do you have an opinion?

[Dr. Eric Topol]

I've never tried a THC drink, so I don't. I don't know what to tell you.

[Kim Holderness]

It makes me go night night. Dr. Chapel, I have one.

[Penn Holderness]

I don't think. It does not appear to interrupt your sleep the way that a glass of wine does.

[Kim Holderness]

Right. If I. Yeah, if I love a. I love a glass of wine, but I can't really drink them anymore because I can't sleep.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah, that's a common story for people trying to prioritize their sleep. It interrupts it. And so, you know, if that that might be reasonable. I, I don't know enough about that to give you a good solid answer.

[Kim Holderness]

Good answer.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Maybe, you know, at individual level it's a good way to titrate.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

Dr. Topol, you are awesome. And like we always feel better after talking to you because you bring us back down to, in this world that is trying so desperately to have us leave Earth for like whatever their supplement is. So thank you for, thank you for keeping it real. Just so you know, you found a following here. They love you. They will continue to ask questions. What, what's the most, what's the most important thing to you right now? What's the most important message to you or place that we should go to to learn more?

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah, well, I really appreciate that. And the problem we have right now is we're in this predatory environment where we have people who are highly influential who are hawking things, selling things and they're not usually, you know, not backed up by adequate or any evidence and even some with potential harm. It's a bad time because these folks have just overriding influence and they're very successful in selling these things. So there aren't limited credible sources, unfortunately. And you have to tell you, and I think you know this, the credible sources don't get the same traction. And the reason for that is that people like to think that there's all these secrets that their doctors won't tell them and that they, these, these soothsayers know, you know, like peptides and all the things that we've been discussing and that the real doctors are they, they just don't know what they're talking about. We have this real serious question of the medical establishment. Is it real, is it truthful? So we're at a tough time right now. And I get that. I mean, look, when I put the superageous book together, you know, it had almost 2,000 citations and I really tried, tried to stick with evidence and it's done very well. But it's not going to compare to books like Outlived by Atia or Casey Means Book, which is full of all kinds of stuff that is not backed up by evidence. They're selling millions of copies, right? So you know, people are more interested in this fringe stuff. It doesn't backed up by evidence. And I understand that. And that's kind of the world we live in right now.

[Kim Holderness]

And the world we live in right now at the time of this recording. There's just been been news that now the United States is changing its recommended for just their recommendations for childhood vaccines and vaccines in general. Do you have any opinion on that?

[Dr. Eric Topol]

It's really unfortunate, the data there. I mean, the vaccines have been the biggest positive impact in public health in history, saving immense number of lives. And they've taken off lots of. They dropped several vaccines from the recommended schedule. That's RFK Jr. And his colleagues. It's really unfortunate because some of those vaccines are really important. We've had, you know, many children with flu deaths this season. That's one of the ones that have been dropped and several others that obviously the hepatitis vaccines are big because if you don't, if you get hepatitis when you're a child, you could go on to, you know, liver disease, chronic and liver cancer. And we're going to see more of that as a result of these changes and many others. So it's really unfortunate and that's part of this anti science movement. And you know, the people that are running HHS are very much in alignment with a lot of these influencers.

[Kim Holderness]

I mean, personal note. So my aunt contracted polio a year before the vaccine came out and then died. And not she, she had double master's degree. She was paralyzed from the waist down. She lived a big life and she impacted so many people. She was a principal, she was an educator. She just, I mean, she was just, I mean she lived five lives in her, her life but then died of post polio virus.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Oh yeah, because.

[Kim Holderness]

And knowing that the rest of our family is protected because we have this vaccine and then you hear people talk. So I just, I get, get very prickly about it. But I'm glad to have a very calm, you know, person, not neutral, but a person who's actually knows what they're talking about.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

So yeah, the post polio thing, you know, that's, it's awful. It's a big deal and we still don't understand the mechanism, but it can occur, you know, decades later.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. 50 years later. Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

And it's just incredibly, I mean all the muscles can atrophy. It just, it's a horrible syndrome that is not so rare after polio. But just think about all those kids that are not getting even a measles vaccine now that can be deadly and it can wipe out your immune system. So each of these conditions, polio, measles, you know, down the whole list, diphtheria, they all have very serious sequelae in people. And at large, where we've already seen from the pandemic a drop in childhood vaccination. And now, now we're even taking more away this is really a serious breach. I am assuming that in the years ahead, when we get back on track, that we'll get these all restored, but we've got a lapse here for a stretch and hopefully it's going to be a limited one.

[Kim Holderness]

It makes me so sad. Anyway, thank you for going down that road with me, Dr. Topol, and we love to have you on. I'm sure we're going to get more questions. Is there anything exciting? I know you have this clinical trial starting. Anything else you, you, you want the folks to know about that you're working on?

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Well, we just enrolled over a thousand people with Long Covid for Tirzepatide, Zeppbound, really, or placebo. And this is the largest trial ever of Long Covid. And we enrolled all the thousand plus people in a month. Less than a month.

[Sam Allen]

Wow.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

So they're currently on the drug every week. We'll know in a year whether Zepbound works. The trial's going really well and it's exciting. And finally a really large trial. And we're so proud that we're able to get the Long Covid community at least a start, because there's not been any large trials yet. And we do this remotely, like the Alez Harmon trial, where anybody can join. And the interest in that was phenomenal.

[Penn Holderness]

So Tirzepatide has been. It was diabetes, it's now weight loss. People are microdosing it for brain health and for Alzheimer's possibilities. How does it help with Long Covid? Is it just all this anti. Inflammation or like, what is it?

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Yeah, it knocks out inflammation in the brain and the, and the body as good as any drug we've ever seen. And as you know, the immune system is terribly dysregulated in people with Long Covid. Yeah, that's why you get this inflammation everywhere. It's really bad. So this is as good a drug as we know to take that on. And we've already had some testimonials from some of the participants that they never felt better. But of course, we don't know what they could be getting. Placebo. You know, we have to wrap this up. It'll. It'll take a year to get all the. The data finalized from the enrollees. But it's a. It's the number one candidate drug where. And of course, it's not going to be a cure for everyone. We're hoping even 20, 25% it helps. But then we'll go on to testing other drugs. But along Covid, we've left These poor folks behind, and so many of them are terribly disabled. And I'm glad we could get on it. And we are committed to staying with it as long as it takes.

[Kim Holderness]

We're so happy you exist in the world, Dr. Topol. And thank you for doing this and answering our questions. Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

And laugh lines.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. Well, I. I want my new ringtone to be Dr. Topple. Going like this.

[Penn Holderness]

Oh, my God.

[Kim Holderness]

Like, that's what I want. My ring tone.

[Penn Holderness]

Oh, collagen. Thanks again. We will obviously schedule you for another one of these soon, because we just keep getting calls and, like, when. Emails, and when we do, we'll send them to you.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. Okay, that's terrific.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

I'll look forward to the next time we convene.

[Kim Holderness]

Thank you so much. I love Dr. Eric Topol because he's not trying to sell you something. And if he were selling something, I would go buy it.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, he.

[Kim Holderness]

If he told me, he's like, actually, Kim, the thigh master will change everything. I'd be like, okay, let's go. Let's get on ebay. Let's do it.

[Penn Holderness]

Also, like, he told me how old he is. It is. He looks so good. I. Like, I. I don't.

[Kim Holderness]

I don't. I can't even, like, put an age on him, Right?

[Penn Holderness]

So, like, if you put him up in his age, up next to, like, superstars, like, actors of the same age, you will say, wow, this guy is walking proof of, like, being healthy. And I know that he practices a lot of what he preaches, so that's, like, a pretty good marketing tool, keeping it toy. Yeah. Yep, he sure is. So I guess it's time for. For Pen's nugs.

[Kim Holderness]

The first nugs of the new year. And if you're listening to us and not watching on us on YouTube, this is where Sam painstakingly turns Pen into some nuggets. We're waiting for that Nug sponsor into a chicken nugget.

[Penn Holderness]

But really, it's just the three nuggets. Nuggets that really kind of stuck out from. From the show today. And this one is gonna be a little different. I'm gonna say a word, and then I'm gonna make a noise. All right, ready? Number one, collagen.

[Kim Holderness]

No, it was more like.

[Penn Holderness]

Sorry, collagen.

[Kim Holderness]

The noises that our persnickety doctor makes.

[Penn Holderness]

Number two, brain clock.

[Kim Holderness]

Right.

[Penn Holderness]

Like, so there's now a test that they're working on. The brain clock sounded pretty cool.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

If you heard that. Just, like, thousands of markers that basically all work together to let you know if you're aging at the correct rate or at the incorrect rate. He said the last thing he said. Don't know if you heard it. It's not going to be prohibitively expensive. It's not going to be like a full body MRI scan, and it's going to give you, like, a good snapshot of whether your brain is aging the right way. That's really valuable.

[Kim Holderness]

It's very valuable. And also, I just went. Even describing it, I get, like, a little confused about how that would even happen. And I know it's a blood test and the whole thing, but then the fact that, like, doing math to calculate how much protein I need just, like, spent my brain. I'm so glad there's such smart people out there.

[Sam Allen]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Penn Holderness]

And finally, full body MRI.

[Kim Holderness]

Dr. Topol's not a fan.

[Penn Holderness]

He. Although, like, I want to go back to this because he finished by saying if there's something really particularly like an undiagnosed noticeable condition, that's a good example. Like, especially if it's affecting multiple parts of your body, then it might work. But I think he's. He doesn't feel super strongly about just going and spending a bunch of money to get your whole body looked at.

[Kim Holderness]

I think that's exactly it for the general population. If nothing is really wrong with you spending a. A ton of money on something just to get your alarm bells up. And it's. It's not worth it. It. I love to spend a ton of money on just random shit, so.

[Penn Holderness]

And for that one, a bonus lion's mane. Poor lions. When Dr. Toble gets a hold of lion's mane.

[Kim Holderness]

That being said, if there's a study that said lion's mane is amazing beyond just anecdotal evidence, I think he'd be the first one out to say, hey, you should take this stuff.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

But he is just very against. And this is where he and I went toe to toe before, because, like, science moves good, science moves slowly, right? Like, these studies take years and they're expensive to do. So, like, if. If I. If a guy on Instagram says, like, yeah, maybe lion's made. Is it gonna hurt me? Turns out, maybe.

[Penn Holderness]

So we'll see. Anyway, Anyway, so those nugs were inspired by Eric Topol, who, a lot of times when you first ask him about something, he makes some sort of grunty noise.

[Kim Holderness]

I love it.

[Penn Holderness]

And we do a super cut of that, maybe. It's wonderful. It makes me very, very happy.

[Kim Holderness]

Supercut of Dr. Topol's noises.

[Dr. Eric Topol]

Oh, gosh. Oh, my God, this is a looney tune.

[Kim Holderness]

Thank you for joining us. We love you. Time for some credits.

[Penn Holderness]

Laugh Lines is written and produced by Kim Holderness, Pen Holderness and Anne Marie Tapke with original music by Pen Holderness. It is filmed, edited and live produced by Sam Allen, who would had extra credit today because we had two podcasts and she had to run around like a crazy person turn off the cameras on and on because they're overheating. Anyway, we're also hosted by acast. As always, we love to hear from you. So please write to us on the email podcast theholdernessfamily.com or leave us a voicemail at 323-364-3929. Y', all. We love the voicemails because it gives you guys a chance to really bring your personality out and we will play you on the Laugh Lines and we'll see you next time on Laugh Lines.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, bye. Love you.

[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

That's balanceofnature.com and use code Holderness.

[Penn Holderness]

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[Sam Allen]

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