Finding Joy Anyway with Kate Bowler

Summary

Laugh Lines with Kim & Penn Holderness Episode: "Finding Joy Anyway" with Kate Bowler Release Date: March 31, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this insightful and deeply funny episode, Kim and Penn Holderness welcome their “new best friend” (as Kim puts it), Kate Bowler—bestselling author, award-winning podcast host, and Duke Divinity School professor—for a wide-ranging conversation about her new book, Joyful Anyway. The trio unpacks the complicated relationship between happiness, joy, aging, suffering, and everyday life—always with laughter, relatable stories, and real vulnerability. Listeners are treated to candid reflections on “the ache” that underlies much of the human experience, the difference between happiness and joy, and practical ways to open up to joy, even in the darkest times.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction & Listener Call-In (01:41–06:26)

• Community Banter:
  • Kim and Penn introduce the show with jokes about aging, gift bags, and naming their fan base. (01:41–03:20)
• Listener "Life Hack" Call-In:
  • Abby from South Carolina shares her ADHD strategy of "thanking past self" for good choices. (04:35)
• ADHD and Systems:
  • Penn and Kim relate as a newly diagnosed ADHD household, crediting routines and systems (scaffolding, hacks, etc.) for making adulting and memory fun. (05:17–06:26)

2. Meet Kate Bowler: Joy in the Messy Middle (06:26–11:03)

• About Kate:
  • “She’s my new best friend, she just doesn’t know it yet.” – Kim (04:00)
  • Kate is a four-time NYT bestseller, podcast host, and professor at Duke. After being diagnosed with stage 4 cancer at 35, she began questioning how to live well when life falls apart. (06:53)
• Basketball Rivalry & North Carolina Life:
  • Lighthearted debate about UNC vs. Duke rivalry. (“Our mascot is a, like, a satanic blue figure that roams around.” – Kate, 10:30)
• Finding the Funny in Serious Places:
  • Kate humorously describes being a Duke “fan” surrounded by basketball traditions she only half understands, emphasizing belonging over sports expertise. (11:03)

3. The Ache: Naming What We Feel (13:06–16:58)

• Defining “the Ache”:
  • “The ache is this awful, bittersweet longing... We feel like we’re looking for something and we can never find it...” – Kate, 13:52
  • The ache is described as a universal, existential restlessness. Kate notes the importance of naming and normalizing this feeling as part of the human experience. (16:58)
• Personal Stories:
  • Kate shares how her stage 4 cancer diagnosis crystallized her own ache—the sense of deep loss and longing when life’s plans are stripped away. (15:12)

4. Ache vs. Mortality, and Dealing with It (18:12–20:40)

• Distinguishing Ache from Failure:
  • Kim and Penn examine mortality as a facet of “the ache,” particularly through the lens of parenthood and missed opportunities. (18:36)
• Coping Mechanisms:
  • Kate suggests we often wrongly try to “optimize away” the ache using wellness or self-help strategies, rather than accepting it as a part of meaningful living. (20:10)
  • “The more language we have for the ache, the more sane we’ll feel and the more we’ll appreciate what makes us human.” – Kate, 15:59

5. Self-Help, Happiness, and the Myth of Optimization (21:15–22:59)

• Self-Help Culture Critique:
  • Kate is researching the history of self-help and connects the multi-billion dollar wellness industry to the flawed promise that we can conquer existential ache through “easy steps.”
  • “American culture in particular is obsessed with this belief that they can heal themselves, love themselves, eat themselves whole... It’s such a particularly American sense of urgency.” – Kate, 21:41

6. Joy vs. Happiness: What’s the Difference? (22:59–24:02; 37:15–37:41)

• Definitions:
  • Happiness: “A sense of ease... the feeling that your life is adding up to something.”
  • Joy: "Joy is this brief, enlivening, soul-enlarging moment where you just say yes. Oh my gosh, it’s so amazing to be alive.” – Kate, 23:05
  • Joy is unexpected and can appear even in heartbreak or boredom, contrasting "choose joy" culture which places pressure on people to manufacture joy. (24:17)

Notable Quote

"You can't choose joy, because you can't. Joy’s a surprise, and you can’t surprise yourself..."
— Kate, 24:22

7. The Surprising Arrival of Joy—Even in Sorrow (24:40–29:03)

• Dark Humor & Death:
  • Penn recounts his father's passing blending with the absurdity of DoorDash replacing bottled water with Mountain Dew—finding laughter and relief in the depth of grief. (25:06–26:37)
  • “For one second, you get a 360.” – Kate, on how joy lets you see the whole of life in sorrowful moments, 28:20

8. Humor and Joy in Hospitals & Hard Places (29:03–32:19)

• Medical Trauma, Laughter as Survival:
  • Kate discusses finding joy even through cancer treatments, colonoscopies, and hospital routines—using humor to reclaim agency and comfort. (29:10–31:56)
• Making Nurses Play Along:
  • “By the time he was gently stroking the inside of my elbow, this has gone too far...” – Kate, on her invented hospital games, 31:34

9. The Relationship Between Suffering, Joy, and Routine (32:19–36:11)

• Why Suffering Changes Joy:
  • Kim observes that those who’ve suffered seem to find joy more easily; Kate agrees: “Maybe people who have gone through something really awful are better at joy because they know life can come apart in an instant.” (33:50)
• Routine & Manners as Joy Inhibitors:
  • Joy interrupts the routines and social scripts we set up. Kate emphasizes breaking free from suffocating scripts, including manners that stifle genuine expression. (34:29–35:13)

10. Regret, Grief, and Still Choosing Joy (43:08–44:44)

• Loving Regret, Missing 'Old Selves':
  • Kate rejects the cliché of “no regrets” and embraces regret as authentic: “I love regrets... I miss all the stuff I used to have... I miss my third belly button. This one is brutal. It’s not cute.” (43:21)
  • She believes regret allows us to value time and life differently, finding joy even when happiness isn’t possible.

11. Practical Ways to “Put Yourself in the Way of Joy” (45:25–46:59)

• Kate’s 3-Part Advice (Based on Immanuel Kant):
  1. Find Someone to Love: Joy is “contagious” and tied to relationships.
  2. Find Something to Do: Serving others—paradoxically by giving—generates more joy.
  3. Find Something to Hope For: Joy grows where hope for a more beautiful story lives.

Key Quotes

“Joy is incredibly socially contagious. It’s actually quite hard to be joyful by yourself.”
— Kate, 45:39

“The more we are telling a story that is more beautiful than the one we have, we are going to imagine a world in which joy is for us and it will find us.”
— Kate, 46:59

12. Laughter, Parenting, and Everyday Joy (41:44–43:08)

• Joyful Moments:
  • Kate’s most joyful, unexpected moments include her son digging a six-foot trench for his “interior movie about Churchill’s feelings.”
  • Kim, by contrast, gets joy from "pimple popping videos"—to Kate’s revulsion.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Joy is this brief, enlivening, soul-enlarging moment where you just say yes.” – Kate Bowler (01:50, 23:05)
• “I think joy is an interruption. Sometimes the lovely thing can just come flying in.” – Kate, (32:19)
• “The wellness industry is at this point a $12 billion a year industry selling us a story about how we can conquer the ache.” – Kate, (21:15)
• “You can’t choose joy… Joy’s a surprise. You can’t surprise yourself.” – Kate, (24:22)
• “Maybe people who have gone through something really awful are better at joy because they already know that life can come apart in an instant. So maybe the lovely thing can, too.” – Kate, (33:50)
• “Joy is for everyone. Joy doesn’t want to miss you. Joy is gonna find you.” – Kate, (32:19)
• “I love regrets... It helps me believe that we have to find other ways to make our time more valuable than just the regular math.” – Kate, (43:21)

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Key Timestamps

• 01:41 – Show begins, banter on aging and routines
• 04:35 – ADHD life hack call-in
• 06:53 – Introducing Kate Bowler and her cancer journey
• 13:50 – The ache: defining existential longing
• 18:36 – Talking about mortality and the ache
• 21:15 – The problem with self-help culture
• 23:05 – Joy vs. happiness (“soul-enlarging moment”)
• 25:06 – Finding laughter at a parent’s deathbed
• 29:03 – Hospital humor and finding joy in hard places
• 32:19 – On suffering, grief, and the openness to joy
• 34:29 – Breaking social scripts for real joy
• 41:44 – Unexpected joyful moments: parenting and everyday life
• 43:21 – Joy and regret: embracing both as part of life
• 45:25 – Kate's “put yourself in the way of joy” practical tips

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“Morsels That Matter” – Key Takeaways (Pen’s Recap, 53:51)

1. Joy Is Unexpected: “Joy is something that creeps in without you realizing... it’s something you should be receptive to and enjoy.”
2. Joy Can Carry You: “One of her most joyful moments was right after her stage four cancer diagnosis, feeling bubble wrap loved by her community.”
3. Routine Can Inhibit Joy: “Routine gets in the way of joy. Maybe leave more space for spontaneity.”

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Additional Resources

• Kate Bowler's Book: Joyful Anyway – Available wherever books are sold, including indie bookstores. Also available in audiobook with “bonus features.”
• Find Kate: katebowler.com/joyful-anyway for tour dates and more.
• Holderness Family Podcast Contact: [e-mail] | Voicemail: 323-364-3929

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The episode is a moving, humor-filled reflection on how finding, naming, and making room for both grief and joy is the real secret to living better together as we age.

Transcript

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[Kate Bowler]

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Hey guys. Welcome to Giggly Squad, a place where we make fun of everything, but most importantly ourselves. I'm Paige Desorbo. I'm Hannah Berner. Welcome to the squad. Giggly Squad started on Summer House when we were giggling during an inappropriate time. But of course, we can't be managed, so we decided to start this podcast to continue giggling. We will make fun of pop culture news. We're watching fashion trends pep talks where we give advice, mental health moments and games and guests. Listen to Giggly Squad on Acast or wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com

[Kim Holderness]

when you move here, it's actually like legally binding. You have to pick a school to cheer for.

[Pen Holderness]

You're starting with this?

[Kim Holderness]

Yes. Okay. Introducing my new best friend who doesn't know it yet.

[Kate Bowler]

Joy is this brief, enlivening, soul enlarging moment where you just say yes. Oh my gosh, it's so amazing to be alive.

[Kim Holderness]

I'm just gonna play Kate's voice on repeat in my brain when I start questioning things.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah, we get older every day. Got more wrinkles.

[Kate Bowler]

That's okay. Yeah, we're laughing.

[Pen Holderness]

When we age, life is like a comedy stage. And that's why we got land.

[Kim Holderness]

Hey, everybody. I'm Kim Holderness.

[Pen Holderness]

And I'm Ben Holderness. Thank you so much for joining us on Raft lines.

[Kim Holderness]

If you've ever found true joy out of never having to buy a gift bag to wrap a present in because you have a huge stash stored from, I don't know, your daughter's baby shower

[Pen Holderness]

and your baby's 19 or anything all. Because you always say, should we throw this bag out and you say, no, it's a pretty good bag.

[Kim Holderness]

It's a pretty good bag. Anyway, if that's, if that's you, your home. Welcome to Laugh Lines for your people.

[Pen Holderness]

So listen, this is a call to action for you, our listeners. The Laugh Pack.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh, is that, is that, did we go with that?

[Pen Holderness]

Laugh liners. The laugh. The laughables.

[Kim Holderness]

The laughable. Lunchable but funnier.

[Pen Holderness]

Those of you like, funny little story. There's a lot of like Internet influencers, like they have a name of their fan base, like what's up? Fuel Nation or whatever. And we're just not. What is Fuel Nation?

[Kim Holderness]

Is that a thing?

[Pen Holderness]

No, Probably. I don't know. But we're not.

[Kim Holderness]

Not, we're not there yet.

[Pen Holderness]

We haven't gotten there yet. So we want a, like, what should we call you guys? And also, we're about to come in to the second half of our season of Laugh Lines. And honestly, you guys give us the best ideas when you do write us. And we read everything that you write us. So if you could write to us, podcast theholdernessfamily.com what would you like to hear about?

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, if there's a topic you'd like us to cover or guest you'd like us to have, just hit us up. We love your suggestions.

[Pen Holderness]

Meanwhile, today is a day that not I'm excited about, but even more so my wife has been talking about for many, many months now because it's someone she's really looking forward to meeting.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes, she's my new best friend. She just doesn't know it yet. Have you ever had that experience? I'm like, as soon as we meet,

[Pen Holderness]

she'll know we're going to be best friends.

[Kim Holderness]

She's amazing. She's a four time New York Times bestselling author, award winning podcast host and professor at Duke University, which we'll get into that. Her name is Kate Bowler. You guys are going to love this conversation about her new book called Joyful. Anyway, but first, because we are the laugh lines, we have to go to

[Kate Bowler]

the laugh line part of the show

[Pen Holderness]

where everyone will find Laugh Line. Call us up and you tell us what's on your mind.

[Listener/Caller]

Hey, this is Abby from Carlton, South Carolina, and I just wanted to share a tip that I found to be really helpful for my adhd. So lately I have been giving my past self who might have done something right credit for the future setups. In this case, I was looking for like a pocket knife and I was trying to figure out where I might have put it. I had no idea. Because of course I couldn't remember. I was like, well, where would I put it now if I set up a new location? And sure enough, that was exactly where the pocket knives live. And I said, thanks, past Abby. You've done it. You helped suture Abby out by doing what would have made sense for the past Abby.

[Kim Holderness]

That was. I kind of went into the matrix there.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

But I love that.

[Pen Holderness]

Well, it's super creative. And what we were just talking about, there was systems in place. Right. And this is something for those of you who missed the last few episodes. My amazing wife. I've known this for a while, but has told the rest of the world that she's been diagnosed as well with adhd. She's been such a rock star to make it this far without actually getting this diagnosis. And it happens all the time with women.

[Kim Holderness]

Rock star. I don't know.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah, I think you have been. I love this because systems in place are very important scaffolding, if you want to call it that, hacks, if you want to call it that. Like, ways to get through life, which to us may seem mundane with things like finding a pocket knife. And I, by the way, Abby, I do this too in sort of a strange way, like thanking my past self. I. When I eat a salad and I wake up the next morning and I feel good, I say, thank you. Shrimp salad. Like, it's a way to have fun with, like, doing. With adulting. Right. And so, like, that was her way of, like, thanking her past self. And it's going to make it more fun. Right. And it also, it's emotional valence. Like, here's why I'm doing this, here's why I'm putting my pocket knife in a certain space. And then we're going to become less forgetful and we're going to dominate the world.

[Kim Holderness]

Love it.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

Does it bring you joy?

[Pen Holderness]

Would you say that last thing did bring me joy? Probably because it was unexpected.

[Kim Holderness]

Ooh. Okay. Foreshadowing segue. We're segueing into introducing my new best friend who doesn't know it yet. Kate Bowler is a four time New York Times bestselling author, award winning podcast host, and professor at Duke University right here in North Carolina. Sorry, Penn. Kate studies stories we tell ourselves about success, suffering and faith and what happens when those stories fall apart.

[Pen Holderness]

After being diagnosed with stage four cancer at the age of 35, she began asking deeper questions about how we actually live. Well, when life doesn't go according to plan. Through her bestselling books, her podcast, everything Happens. And her latest book, Joyful Anyway, Kate, explores how we can all learn to live with more. More honesty, hope, and even joy in the middle of the messy parts of life.

[Kim Holderness]

Welcome to the show, my new best friend, Kate Bowler.

[Kate Bowler]

I'm so glad to be here.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh, my gosh. This is so fun. Okay, before we start on your brilliant new book, Joyful Anyway. Okay. We are all proud North Carolinians.

[Kate Bowler]

Yes.

[Kim Holderness]

And when you move here, you have to. It's. It's actually, like, legally binding. You have to pick a school to cheer for.

[Pen Holderness]

You're starting with this.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes. Okay, so, and we. In this area, we have unc, we have Duke, NC State, and they're all within, like, moments of each other. And you have to pick one school, and you. And I think, like, for the rest of your life, you have to hate the other schools.

[Kate Bowler]

Agreed.

[Kim Holderness]

Like, it's just what happens. So Penn. Raised in Durham, but brought up by a whole bunch of Tar Heels. His granddad played basketball for unc. He did. He. He didn't even go to unc, but he is, like, in the cult, right? Stop. Okay. And then we're watching the most recent UNC Duke game. I see you on tv. I was like, oh, my God, that's my new friend Kate. And you're sitting there going, so rah, rah for Duke.

[Kate Bowler]

I was like. You were like, ear horse. Yeah, Just. It was all shoulders.

[Kim Holderness]

It was strong, and Pen made this noise that came from somewhere. It was like. I was like, oh, my God, we're here, like, this week.

[Kate Bowler]

Metabolism. It felt like hatred.

[Pen Holderness]

Would you like me to jump in here?

[Kim Holderness]

Yes.

[Pen Holderness]

Okay. So I was in a very emotionally compromised state. It happens to me twice a year, sometimes three if we beat him in the Final Four. Sorry. If we ever played them in a tournament. And so I, like, they were. Carolina was getting the crap kicked out of them, which is pretty normal these days. Like, Duke has gotten very good. And then there's Kate, and she's next to, like, the mascot for Duke, Cringe, who I absolutely.

[Kim Holderness]

What?

[Kate Bowler]

How dare you, sir?

[Pen Holderness]

See, here we go. No, it's Ken Jong, who I love,

[Kim Holderness]

actually, but he has become like, a mascot.

[Pen Holderness]

It's like. Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

I mean, you're only saying that because we lifted him like Simba toward the Cameron crazy, which really happened.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah. He seems like a lot of fun, I got to admit. Like, he seems like a lot of fun, but no. So I was raised not only by a Carolina family, but also my dad's church were a bunch of Duke doctors. So I've Been very, very connected with this rivalry in this relationship. I've been to Cameron probably 30 times, because when you don't want to put money the offering tray, they give you tickets. You put Duke tickets back when they weren't that good.

[Kate Bowler]

Stop.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah. So we would go all the time,

[Kim Holderness]

and I still hated them.

[Pen Holderness]

I still hated them. But so. And now you're in my house,

[Kate Bowler]

and he's, like, wearing neutral colors on neutral.

[Pen Holderness]

We're here to talk about joy.

[Kim Holderness]

He was not feeling a lot of joy.

[Pen Holderness]

No, that. That is true.

[Kate Bowler]

I like that we started this way.

[Lowe's Advertiser]

Well, yeah.

[Listener/Caller]

Why.

[Kate Bowler]

Why did you. Thanks so much for coming. I hate you. What I feel for you is hatred, rage. Fair and how dare you, sir. You've lived close enough to the Crucible to know what's at stake here. And what's at stake is Duke's natural

[Pen Holderness]

dominance in the world, unless it's in the Final Four.

[Kate Bowler]

But, yeah, for me, it's quite theologically problematic because our mascot is a, like, a satanic blue figure that, like, roams around. And meanwhile, the establishing shot for ESPN is the Divinity School. So it's so someone like me, who's professor at the Divinity School, is like, yay, Satan is real and he roams the earth.

[Pen Holderness]

They do. They show Duke Chapel at the start of every game. Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

We love you, Prince of the Air. It's worrisome. It's worrisome.

[Kim Holderness]

But they, like, just.

[Kate Bowler]

I will tell you, though, the secret of my Duke fandom is that I go to the games, and I love all the people involved, and they are. Are so kind to me in inviting me to everything. Like, I have been, like, for instance, miked up to talk about sports programming before for. With, like, sweet Ken Jeong. And the big joke is that everyone knows that I don't know what's going on and that I do a lot of aggressive clapping and a lot of, like, second people start in with the. You, you, you. I'm like, you, you just randomly pointing. A lot of whispers, whispering what's going on? And every time after the game, coach John Shire will be like, kate, that was a game of basketball. We ran really fast, and our team

[Kim Holderness]

put the basket in more than the other team did.

[Kate Bowler]

But emotionally, I'm very attuned to what's happening and the highs and lows, and you're.

[Pen Holderness]

You're right in there with the crazies. So for those. Those who don't know who the Cameron Crazies are, they are a incredible, like, hive mind of basketball fans that have been very well known nationally. They were some of the, I think maybe even before, like Leitner and Hurley. People knew about the Cameron crazies because they come up with these incredibly creative and sometimes a little over the top inappropriate. Like this is.

[Kate Bowler]

The truth is I came to Duke when I was 25. Little bitty baby. My. Walked around on campus with my parents and my dad put his arm around me and he said, if you ever leave a place like this, I'll kill you.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah, it's amazing.

[Kate Bowler]

Quite nice. And we grew up on the edge of the University of Manitoba, which always begins the academic year by testing manures. And because we lived on the edge of campus, from our yard, we could just smell it, smell the learning. So I think my parents were pretty pleased.

[Kim Holderness]

Need to hold this experience tight to

[Kate Bowler]

lock me in here.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, so when people, you go to a cocktail party and they say, kate, what's your. What do you do for a living? So how do you describe what you do?

[Kate Bowler]

I'm a huge bummer. Immediately straight off the bat, I'm like, guys, it's bad. It's so bad out there. But the truth is I am a historian and I study the cultural scripts we tell about, in particular success and suffering and whether we frankly, like, deserve the lives we have.

[Pen Holderness]

Do we?

[Kate Bowler]

I mean, you UNC fan? Probably not, but this is why I

[Pen Holderness]

didn't want to start with this.

[Kim Holderness]

Sorry.

[Pen Holderness]

Okay, yeah, fair enough.

[Kim Holderness]

Fair enough. Okay, so I have. If you can tell, I've like, dog eared and underlined so many parts. I love. I love this book, so. And your new book, Joyful. Anyway, you talk about the ache.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

What's the ache?

[Kate Bowler]

The ache is this awful, bittersweet longing we feel like we're looking for something and we can never find it that is inside of us at all times. And we feel like a narcissist if we say it out loud. Like, is it just me? Why do I want more? Why do I feel like this is never enough, even though I made all my gratitude lists?

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. So this.

[Kate Bowler]

I think what's fun about teaching in a divinity school is you can wander the hallways nursing personal problems disguised as theological controversies. Love it. So there's a lot of, like, knocking on people's doors, being like, is there something wrong with me? The answer is yes. But there is a lot of lovely historical and theological language for that feeling, that sense that we all feel restless and like there's a piece missing in us. So the question is, then, what do we do with all of this churn? Do we optimize it? Do we pretend it's not there? Or is there something? Is there a different direction where we can take it?

[Pen Holderness]

Can we take a little bit of time and like, sort of pinpoint that ache? Because I feel like the way that you describe it, I bet you everyone listening was like, oh, I think I have that. Yeah, but you have to, like, locate it. To me, it seems like, like, what. What was your. When did you notice the ache and what brought that.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah.

[Pen Holderness]

About.

[Kate Bowler]

Well, I noticed it most in the worst moments of my life. I had a stage four cancer diagnosis when I was 35, and in that moment, all the plans I made were gone in an instant. And that feeling of being stripped down to the studs and you look around at everybody's life and you feel like you're so hungry you could starve to death. That feeling is. It was so raw to me then, but I think I can feel it. I mean, I think we all. We feel it when we feel love. We feel it when we look at our kids and we want to, like, eat them up. We love them so. And. And then they won't stay with us. Those little bastards live with me forever.

[Kim Holderness]

Is that weird? I don't think it's weird.

[Kate Bowler]

Necessary. Our loves make us feel achy. Our incomplete relationships, the thing we wish that our dad would say to us and might never, or the apology we wish we got from a friend or the job we thought would be more meaningful and then isn't. I think knowing that the ache is really loud in particular seasons, but that the truth is it is so intimately connected to the very best parts of us, we really can't escape the fact that every good thing will always, will always almost make us cry. And so I think we. I think we were all. At least I was told that that meant that there was. That I just hadn't figured out how to square the circle on this. But I've. I've really think that the more language we have for the ache, the. The more sane we'll feel and the more like, the more we will appreciate the fact that this is probably exactly what makes us human.

[Pen Holderness]

Kim and I went on a walk yesterday and tried to identify our aches.

[Kate Bowler]

Oh, that's awesome.

[Kim Holderness]

More on this after these words.

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[Pen Holderness]

We call it a lake walk.

[Kim Holderness]

It's like there are a lot of

[Pen Holderness]

lake walks out because it was really nice weather. So we're on our lake walk and

[Kate Bowler]

I love you guys. That's so cute.

[Kim Holderness]

Our lace, just a bunch of lace pieces.

[Pen Holderness]

A bunch of olds. Just a bunch of athleisure walking through the woods.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. Our son has his license, so we're like, I don't have to do anything.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

So weird.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah.

[Pen Holderness]

But. So I was trying to identify mine. I'm a pretty happy person, but I have this, like, monthly. Monthly is interesting. I don't think it's like that. But this. Right. About every month I get this feeling that, like, it's all gonna end. That's mortality. Right. Is that different from the ache or is that the same thing? It's really strong. It bums me out for several minutes and then I'm okay.

[Kate Bowler]

Yes. Yeah. Well, I think that roaring feeling. I mean, mortality is another way of just reminding us that everything we want we can only have for a moment.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

And. And even like, no matter how many people tell us, like, just be present. Make laundry sacred. I think we're talk. Talking about something that's like. It's more. Because, like, that's what the word existential is for. Like, these are the big questions that sometimes feel like lead in our stomachs. And it's because they're asking us to confront this deep mystery of trying to live with all of this beauty and want and fear and desire and. And then bottle it up and it'd still be Tuesday. So just again.

[Kim Holderness]

Again. It's Tuesday again. So the ache is not failure. No, the ache is part of human existence. You know, sometimes, like, people write words and you're like, oh, my God, that's what I feel you'd written something about. Because part of my ache is I get. I actively in mourning all the places I'll never go.

[Listener/Caller]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

Like, I see on tv, you know, like the app is Apple that has like the pause screens and they're like going over mountains. I'm like, yeah, I need to watch this because I'm never going to see it in real life.

[Kate Bowler]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, that's exactly what I. When right before we moved my grandpa into hospice, that's exactly what he would do. He would watch the changing screensavers. Yes. And with this cute little grouchy voice, he'd go, I wonder where that is. That's me. I'm your grandpa.

[Kim Holderness]

So. Okay, so I have this ache. I. I've come to terms with it. Like, how. How do we deal with it?

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

How do we go on? How do we grieve this?

[Kate Bowler]

I think if we treat it like it's all this energy, it's like an engine, and we can put it in, we can, we can definitely move it in the wrong direction. And I think one of the wrong directions we immediately reach for is our New Year's selves. So optimization is very tempting. And as an avid consumer, I really get it. And I think we're sold. I mean, the wellness industry is at this point a $12 billion a year industry selling us a story about how we can conquer the.

[Kim Holderness]

In like 12 easy steps or 10 easy steps, five even, if you really want to get to it.

[Kate Bowler]

And, yeah, and it could be your breath work, it could be your gratitude, it could be your supplements, vitamin C, it could be your.

[Pen Holderness]

I think that you are in the self help space in an. In a different way and talking about spirit and soul and mind.

[Lowe's Advertiser]

What.

[Pen Holderness]

What's your take on all of this, all this self help?

[Kate Bowler]

Well, because I'm. I'm actually writing a history of self help right now, so I do have 100 years of self help that I have just recently read. And so I do. Part of why I'm so fascinated by this is American culture in particular, is obsessed with this belief that they can heal themselves, love themselves, eat themselves whole. And they are, in fact, the number one consumer of the product that they make globally. And it's such a particularly American sense of urgency that they need to solve the ache through what turns out to be unbelievably expensive solutions. And I guess in particular, when I was trying to figure out this joy project, it made me realize that there's such a strong relationship between the health and wellness industry and the version of happiness that we're being sold, because happiness is, I mean, just from A neurological standpoint, it's a sense of ease. It's the feeling that your life is adding up to something. And it turns out it's like, it is quite expensive. And so self help and happiness. Of course, we're a good vibes culture now, but some of us are not lucky enough to keep being that happy. So what's there for the rest of us?

[Kim Holderness]

It's joy.

[Kate Bowler]

I really hope so.

[Kim Holderness]

So what is. Okay, if that's happiness, what's joy?

[Kate Bowler]

Joy is. Well, it's amazing because it hits all those dopamine centers. It makes you thankful and eyes open and so excited. But it also engages with our stress systems, which is what really helps explain why you can still feel joy in the middle of a funeral or an awful hospital moment. But why is it then that joy can just visit you even in difficult moments or bored moments? And it's because joy is this brief, enlivening, soul enlarging moment where you just say, yes. Oh my gosh, it's so amazing to be alive.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

For one second you feel like everything is okay, even if nothing is okay. And I just think it's such a comforting thing to know that everyone can experience joy even if they can't always be happy.

[Kim Holderness]

So the bumper stickers say, choose joy.

[Kate Bowler]

Yes.

[Kim Holderness]

Which puts a lot of pressure on me because like, yes, I choose it. But then it becomes like, well, crap. How do I. Like, how do I find it? It seems like another thing I have that it's my fault if I'm not finding it.

[Kate Bowler]

It definitely is your fault for sure. You specifically.

[Pen Holderness]

Just Kim.

[Kim Holderness]

Just me.

[Kate Bowler]

Well, I think that's because they're trying to put joy in the same paradigm as that self help impulse five step plans too. And the thing is, you really can't choose joy, because you can't. Joy's a surprise. And you can't surprise yourself, even though that's why I brought you here today. Come on out.

[Pen Holderness]

Look under your chairs. It's joy. So on the other end of the joy spectrum, I'm like, I feel like I'm connecting with you on some things already. Just with little things that you've done. Like you were talking and you were like, well, we had to take my relative to hospice. And I'm like sitting here thinking, joy chooses me sometimes at king completely inopportune times like I have. Why are you laughing?

[Kim Holderness]

Are you gonna tell the story about your dad dying?

[Pen Holderness]

Oh, I could. That wasn't where I was going with

[Kim Holderness]

that, but sure, that was hilarious.

[Pen Holderness]

I mean, I do like So I had, I had a. My dad died of dementia. My mom's in the late stages of dementia. And so for starters, last night, like, we, like, we're watching this Alzheimer's commercial and I always scream at the TV during Alzheimer's commercials because they don't know how to do it. It's very, very.

[Kim Holderness]

It's like the mom going like, yeah. And then she takes you, wait a

[Kate Bowler]

minute, I know who you are.

[Pen Holderness]

Here's the drug you buy. Like, that's what. That's what. And so when I yell at it, everyone in my family laughs. And like, that's totally inappropriate. Screaming at a. Yeah, but death is. Yeah. So when my, when my dad died, the thing that I remember the most was I know exactly when he died because we were door dashing. Salsa fresh.

[Kim Holderness]

Because we didn't know how long. I mean, they're like, it's time. And so we're all sitting there and we're waiting.

[Pen Holderness]

I got an email at 7:13pm from Salt from DoorDash saying, we're sorry, your bottle of water is not available. We've replaced it for an additional $2.13 with a 32 ounce Mountain Dew.

[Kate Bowler]

Oh, no.

[Pen Holderness]

Because they thought that would be what I would want. The most perfect, unhealthy thing you can possibly put in your body. And so I started railing on Doordash and everyone started laughing. And then the woman comes in and she goes, I'm sorry, he's not. So like, that was.

[Kim Holderness]

We were cackling.

[Pen Holderness]

She just said, it's perfect. Like, okay, so tell me why that's perfect. Because it felt perfect to me.

[Kim Holderness]

It felt perfect.

[Kate Bowler]

Okay, Honestly, this is. It took me forever to try to like, figure out that feeling because it's. The bottom is dropping out. And then you get this surreal, crazy feeling of pure, odd joy. And that feeling. There's this lovely Friedrich Nietzsche quote that says, like, if you've ever said yes to one pain, if you've ever said yes to one despair, then you have said yes to all joys, all and just lists the whole human condition. Like, you say yes to it all. And in the middle of something awful, when you feel every trap door open, it's like you see the whole of everything all at one time. And I think it's this. It becomes this story about how it's still good. It's good to be in your life. It's good to feel so much love that it's bringing. Breaking you. And I think the moments where we can say yes to it all, that's Our, like, matrix moment where and then we go back to our regular brains, but for one minute, we see the fullness of our life, and it. Nothing, everything matters, and nothing matters.

[Kim Holderness]

If that was a drug, I'd buy it.

[Kate Bowler]

Well, people.

[Kim Holderness]

People do.

[Kate Bowler]

Interestingly, actually, there is a funny relationship between, like, why is it that we can't just have. Why can't we use drugs for joy? And there's, you know, all kinds of very interesting things. But what joy. But what's interesting is joy is not bliss, because bliss is an erasure of self. It escapes you. But joy, because you feel the everythingness of your real life, you live inside of your actual experience. And I kind of like the fact that joy is almost like for one second, you get a 360.

[Kim Holderness]

Ah, to really bring the mood up. You were diagnosed with stage four cancer at 35. So what's your favorite colonoscopy prep?

[Kate Bowler]

Oh, my gosh. Guys, guys, I'm in it for the jokes. I mean, I. It's so. It's the one. It's just awful, the whole part, because I have to get them all the time because I grow so much new cancer. Right. So my new favorite, favorite thing is having sort of emotional interventions with the anesthesiologist. I helped one the other day pick a better college for her kid. The surgery got delayed because I was so insightful on so many drugs.

[Kim Holderness]

I was like, guys, guys, guys, guys, guys, guys. Wait, wait, wait, wait.

[Kate Bowler]

But my favorite moment was, you know, the moment where you turn and you have to expose your posterior to the world.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes.

[Kate Bowler]

And then I was like. I pointed at the doctor, and I was like, I heard you went to Yale. I went to Yale too. We're peers. I just, like, put myself under. I tucked my little drugs in my nose, and I just thought it was so funny. We're peers.

[Kim Holderness]

I always try to tell a joke as I'm. Because I'm every other year kind of girly, and I always try to tell a joke. Oh. The best part is my gastroenterologist, who I've had since I moved here, is the dad of a girl in my son's class.

[Pen Holderness]

So we see him all the time.

[Kim Holderness]

So we saw, like, during COVID with mask on. And he's like, oh, Kim, not used to seeing you. And he was going to say, with a mask on. I was like, with pants. He. And then I introduced him to other parents, like, hey, this is Dr. Blah, blah, blah. We do butt stuff.

[Pen Holderness]

She said. I've heard her say it. We do butt stuff.

[Kim Holderness]

He hates It. He's like, can you stop telling?

[Pen Holderness]

He's the one who picked the job.

[Kate Bowler]

He.

[Kim Holderness]

It's my butt.

[Kate Bowler]

Oh, my God. If you could just have, like, Hispanic shorts and then endless tearaway pants around him, I would be so happy.

[Kim Holderness]

You know, it's coming.

[Pen Holderness]

Wait, so you're like. You're on anesthesia and you're able to talk? Like, they put that thing in me, and I'm like. And it was.

[Kate Bowler]

You got it. Look, you got to steal yourself. You got to want it for longer,

[Pen Holderness]

to stay in for longer.

[Kate Bowler]

You gotta keep focused.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, yeah, Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

I take my own little thing in now. Just put my own little drugs in. I do. And the truth is, I. I had so many awful surgeries related to cancer. I'm on my ninth belly button at this point. So I had so much medical trauma, frankly, I just found that I would try to practice. Weirdly, I think this is kind of how I found joy most often in hospitals, is because it was always the worst place I'd ever been with the worst moments of my life. And I realized, well, sorry, Kate, you have to keep going there. So every time I went, I would just try to, first of all, be able to picture the room a little better. Like, the smells, the sounds, the things that might be triggering. And then I would try to see if there was. You know, because there's always that nurse that reaches for your hand or. But I hate the blood work most of all. So I would pretend, say that the nurse who was there was actually a vampire who wanted my blood for his own purposes and was going to ask to be left alone. And by the time he was, like, gently stroking the inside of my elbow, it's like, first of all, this has gone too far. But second, it made me laugh so hard, forcing other people to play my dumb games that it opened up, up more kind of emotional freedom in me. So I. Yeah, I find joy is something I can find at the hospital because I can do that first stage, which is I can stay awake.

[Kim Holderness]

I find that the people that have been through the most in their life. Like, I have a dear friend who lost a daughter, and then she got cancer herself. I mean, beyond. Like, beyond beyond beyond. And she has the. She finds the joy way more often than my ass does. So, like, what is it about just grief and despair that opens your eyes to that?

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah, well, it was always a question for me because I grew up with a lot of depression in my family. My dad was really significantly depressed, and so our whole home was quiet and sad and, like, Brittle. And it became a question like, well, is. Is joy just, like, unavailable to some people? Are some people immune to joy? If you feel that much sorrow or sadness or grief or just like that awful existential flatness that depressed people get, does that mean that joy is only for some people and not others? And I think it's really so refreshing to be around people who've really had a before and an after and to realize, like, joy is for everyone. Joy doesn't want to miss you. Like, joy is going to find you. But you do probably have to renegotiate your relationship to fear if you're going to find a way, because fear is going to keep you small and brittle. And so, I mean, the other joy killer, frankly, is routine. Hyper efficiency, hyper focus on just what you plan on getting done that day. Those people are hard to interrupt. And joy is an interruption. So I think maybe sometimes the reason why people have gone through something really awful are better at joy is because they already know that life can come apart in an instant. So if the bad thing can also happen an instant, like, maybe the lovely thing can, too.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Pen Holderness]

So routine creates this fear that keeps you from joy.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah.

[Pen Holderness]

What about, like, manners?

[Kate Bowler]

Go on.

[Pen Holderness]

Well, I just like one of the things I love about you, and you appear to not saying you don't have good manners, but, like, I called you

[Kate Bowler]

sir when I came in.

[Pen Holderness]

People are supposed to, like, hold their tongue when something like, intrusively funny creeps into their head. And you don't appear to have that filter. And that's got to be kind of liberating. Right. As far as, like, the. The joy is much more accessible to people like that. I mean, this is a compliment.

[Kate Bowler]

Do you have manners, though?

[Kim Holderness]

Do you have to lose manners to

[Pen Holderness]

have joy are overrated.

[Kate Bowler]

Well, I think that. I mean, it's a perfect example. Example of why. This is why I love studying cultural scripts. Manners are a cultural script. I just think some of the cultural scripts we live inside, like, suffocate us. And one of them is that we have to pretend in the middle of an awful thing that we're so grateful and still learning a lesson. That one I find deeply pernicious. So you're not going to make me learn a lesson, sir. So I do like the idea of, like, practicing which scripts you want to break.

[Pen Holderness]

Okay. I mean, and which scripts. I mean, you seem to have broken a lot of scripts in your life. And again, you keep laughing like, I'm jealous of you that you can do all these things, because you do seem to have, like, pure joy.

[Kate Bowler]

I think it's partly just the randomness of life, like, gets me and just even the sheer volume of bad things that keep happening to me. And I keep having to yell, is this how I die in a new situation? Like when I was walking in my suburban neighborhood and then I was bitten. What I thought was an evil fire ant, but it turns out was a baby poisonous copperhead, like on a mowed lawn. And I had to be envenomated to the tune of about $200,000.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. And she was like, I don't think I should be limping. She writes about this. What a. What a middle aged mom thing to say.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah, I probably have made a mistake here. It's my fault because I can't walk.

[Kim Holderness]

It's my fault that I'm limping and should probably be rushed to the hospital. Wild, that is.

[Kate Bowler]

Well, I did try the easy breezy walk in doctor. And they screamed. They're like, get out. Call an ambulance. Like, what's wrong with you? I was like, okay. But in terms of breaking scripts, what was so fun is that when you've been poisoned, you get to yell. Like going through the metal detector. I've been poisoned. Being asked to fill very small and reasonable amounts of paperwork. I've been poisoned.

[Pen Holderness]

Bypass.

[Kim Holderness]

And like, when else can you say that?

[Kate Bowler]

Exactly.

[Pen Holderness]

They keep the serums in one little refrigerator in the back of the hospital and they're like $20,000 a shot. Seriously? For snakes?

[Kate Bowler]

Well, they made it fresh for me. I don't know if it's of kind of. It's the celebrity treatment, but I did get fresh $100,000. So I did use that.

[Kim Holderness]

Your insurance company. Love you.

[Kate Bowler]

They're like, do you want to keep your house? That was there.

[Kim Holderness]

Cancer man. Anti venom.

[Pen Holderness]

This seems like a good time to promote the book.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, well, also, what does joy look like? Like, is the ache still there when joy comes to surprise you or does the joy erase the ache?

[Kate Bowler]

Joy will be the moment where, honestly, nothing matters. And it'll feel like the full everythingness is the deepest, most loveliest kind of okay. And it is so good to be alive. It's like the big yes.

[Kim Holderness]

More on this after these words.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

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[Kate Bowler]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Pen Holderness]

Anytime you ask anybody what their happiest, most joyful moment is, they always say what was the day I got married and it was the day that my children were born? Like that's like this right? I'm one. Yes. I I bet your joy, the joyful moments are a lot more creative than than those. Can you think of some that maybe you would not have expected to been your most joyful moments?

[Kate Bowler]

Well and I mean it totally makes sense where it's, it's funny, it's in Lord of the Rings they call it the you catastrophe. Right? It could have been one way. It could have been a catastrophe. But it wasn't. It was beautiful. And I think sometimes when people get married or they have a baby like they they're in that moment they're so relieved. It could have been one way and now it was this. And I think joy has that a huge part of that feeling. Like it feels like not just happiness, it feels like, like grace, like we are so lucky we could explode. And so yeah, I mean the, the day they put my huge pumpkin head frog eyed baby in my arms and I said it was you, it was you the whole time I thought I would die of joy. But I think knowing that joy is really, I mean that joy can kind of break in is nice in the worst moments. Right after my diagnosis I felt like really weirdly, weirdly bubble wrapped love for about two months. Like in a way that I couldn't gossip about my colleagues anymore in a way that I wanted to. I felt that much love that I wasn't even petty anymore. It was like creepy and amazing. That's divine. I mean, that's just like sometimes joy like just carries us. And I do, I really do think that when we are brokenhearted, we do have a God who loves the brokenhearted. So I do think that when in our worst moments, there's often like a little, a little experience of grace that people can tuck away for later and say like, wow. Even if all, if every basement door opens and there's going to somehow be

[Kim Holderness]

light there, what's like an instant, I need a hit of joy. Like what makes you laugh every time?

[Kate Bowler]

Like, my kid is killer.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

I mean, he's like right now, he dug a six foot trench in the backyard. He just disappeared three hours later. I just saw a World War II helmet pop up slowly and then lower as he had fully dug a trench, like destroying our property value. And he's like, he was having a horrible day. And I was like, what you? And I came home with pizza and a, and a psychological, just like a really interior movie about Churchill's feelings about his cabinet.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Pen Holderness]

How old is your kid?

[Kate Bowler]

12. Okay. And he was like, oh, mom, thank you. And like just jokes on, jokes on, jokes with this one. And I don't know, it kills so good.

[Kim Holderness]

I love that. Mine, it's like pimple popping videos. But yours is much better.

[Kate Bowler]

Gross. Gross.

[Kim Holderness]

I love it.

[Kate Bowler]

You're gross.

[Kim Holderness]

It makes my brain all tingly.

[Kate Bowler]

You're disgusting.

[Kim Holderness]

I love it so much. I love it so much.

[Pen Holderness]

For kids to start reading about World War II documentaries at 12 is like way ahead of the usual like 50 year old dad guy who starts looking

[Kate Bowler]

at these, who's like, man, I really got to get into presidential biographies.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

What was it like for Garfield? Not the lasagna one.

[Kim Holderness]

There's a different one.

[Pen Holderness]

You appear to have had a lot of awful things happen to you. You also appear to have fewer regrets than most people or like wishing that it had gone differently.

[Kate Bowler]

Well, I love regrets. I do. I'm a very yes, yes to regrets person. Because almost always at the end of a celebrity interview, they'll go, and it made me who I am today. And I don't believe it. I made miss everything I used to be. I miss all the stuff I used to have. I miss my third belly button. This one is Brutal. It's not cute. I hate it. And I have huge regrets about, you know, just time I've missed and relationships. I don't have things I wish were different. I. Places I wish I'd been that I. I just. There's, like, a whole decade. I wish I could have made different choices. But I think our regrets and our. Our ability to look honestly at the past, to say, man, this really cost me. It helps me believe that we have to find other ways to make our time more valuable than just the regular math. Like, I. If I can't, I really. I don't think that I'll always be able to be happy. I have so much chronic pain. I'm, like, constantly having to, like, pay insane amounts of money for treatment that just, like, isn't there yet. Like, it. Life is going to be hard. So if it's going to be hard, what's going to be so rich and good that it could happen anywhere at any time and doesn't all need to add up? So that's why I'm, like. I'm. I'm, like, in it for the jokes. I'm, like, in it for the joy.

[Pen Holderness]

So you. Do you have a lot of regrets? They just don't appear to be, like, eating you alive.

[Kate Bowler]

I will list my resentments and air them to people on airplanes in particular. Be like, you asked me about my brother. Well, I'll tell you.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, I'll tell you.

[Kate Bowler]

Don't think I won't.

[Kim Holderness]

So joyful. Anyway, what, like, what was the process of writing this book?

[Kate Bowler]

Well, I teach at Duke Divinity School, so I do, like, my little teachy teach. And then I lock myself in my hovel and I cry in front of a monitor. And that's my process. That's my journey. And then when I come out, I'm like, it's a book. It's done. And that's what happened. Thank you.

[Kim Holderness]

I love you. So, like, Anna Knott just takes her notes, right? That's a book. Okay. You talk about, like, putting yourself in the way of joy. Like, it's a Tuesday, it's about to start raining. Like, how can I put myself in the way of joy today? Like, what does that look like for you?

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah, there's, I think, really good advice. It's attributed to Emmanuel Kant, and I think it's. It's a good little, like, primer for figuring out where joy might be found. And the first is, he says, find someone to love. And there is a weird alchemy to loving other people and getting involved in Their strange problems and then something happening. So I do think there's an intimate relationship. And it's. It's funny, it sounds like a public health warning, but joy is incredibly socially contagious. It's actually quite hard to be joyful by yourself. So go be with other people and get into what they're into, and something will emerge. Find something to do. There's a very intimate relationship between joy and service. I mean, it should be that when we give, we have less.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

And it sucks for us, but strangely, it's the opposite. The more you give, you oddly find yourself wrapped up in this story of how the less we focus on ourselves, the more something beautiful happens. So find something to do. And I think the last is find something to hope for. The more we are telling a story that is more beautiful than the one we have, we are going to imagine a world in which joy is for us and it will find us.

[Pen Holderness]

I have some family members who I adore, who. I think they believe that the path to joy is just working really, really hard.

[Kim Holderness]

Are you talking about me?

[Pen Holderness]

You weren't the first person that leapt to mind, to be honest.

[Kate Bowler]

Oh, okay.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah. There were others. I do think that you work very hard.

[Kate Bowler]

Hard.

[Pen Holderness]

But. But. But who believe that that is the true path.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah.

[Pen Holderness]

To joy.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah. I mean, I'm from a Mennonite background. Don't think we can't raise a barn and kill our own happiness. Don't think we don't know what it's like to hate our lives. We do. And I do think sometimes for people who work hard for especially. I mean, there's 130 million American. Right. Americans right now who are actively caregiving in a way that they can't, you know, fill their own cup, pursue their own joy. I mean, it's ridiculous to imagine that especially most women have the time or the resources to do anything other than work or care for other people's needs. And sometimes in those contexts, joy can feel very, like, frivolous. Why? First of all, who has the time? And then why do something extra? And I know from my Mennonite background, like, anything extra is just like, you didn't get a good deal at the buffet line. Like, you gotta maximize everything you have and not want more. I think. I mean, this is. I think, honestly, this is why joy isn't just a nice emotion, why it's divine, why it's actually like a gift we get from God, is we're. We're given stuff as ridiculous and unnecessary as joy to remind us that it Actually doesn't matter what we do. Like. Like, good for us for working so hard. But we were never actually meant to be robots that were evaluated that way. Like, just who we were. Day we were born, the day we die, when we're useless to others, when we are unbelievably useful to others. Like, we have the same inherent, unshakable worth. And I think Joy does a good job of reminding our robot selves that before all of that, we were still worthy.

[Kim Holderness]

I'm just gonna play Kate's voice on repeat in my brain when I start questioning things. Okay. Where can people find your book?

[Kate Bowler]

Oh, Joyful. Anyway, it's found this one wherever books are sold, particularly your favorite indie. I also did the audible version where I just have. I have my own private thoughts, which I then force them to record so they'll go to get a lot of bonus features.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh, I love that. I love that. And you're going on tour.

[Kate Bowler]

Oh, my gosh. There's so much tour.

[Kim Holderness]

There's so much.

[Kate Bowler]

So much tour. There's so much tour. It's two months of me. Come see me in all the places I think.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. And where can they find. Where can people find?

[Kate Bowler]

It's katebowler.com joyful. Anyway, is the tour schedule.

[Pen Holderness]

What happens in the tour.

[Kate Bowler]

Oh, my God. I'm gonna make it fun.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah, I know you are, but. Yeah, I can't wait to hear what.

[Kate Bowler]

Oh, I've got a surprise at the end. I do.

[Pen Holderness]

Okay, can't talk about that.

[Kate Bowler]

I mean, just price. That's the best part about surprises. Okay. Is that I don't have to pre plan them. No, just kidding. It is happening. Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, this is so exciting. I'm so excited. Excited for the rest of the world to get to read. Read your words. So thank you for coming to our attic to share some joy with us.

[Kate Bowler]

You guys are so fun. I love you.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. Through the magic of the Internet, poof. We are back to our normal set. I feel so much joy when I'm around Kate.

[Pen Holderness]

Right.

[Kim Holderness]

My new best friend who doesn't know you.

[Pen Holderness]

I think I love watching you make new friends. For those of you who. Who don't know, when Kim makes a friend, it's like a friend for life for me. No, I'm kidding. I usually try to keep my friends as well, but so, like, just as far as the. The meat of the conversation, what really

[Kim Holderness]

stuck out for you, Joy is available. And I think that where. From where I sit, I do get bogged down in, like, the things I need to do today, she said something about, like. Like, you know, when you're so stuck in your routine, it's hard to kind of, like, look up and notice. And I think that's. I. I need a routine, and maybe I just need to leave more space for moments of joy because it's. It's always available. And also, when I. First of all, you guys have to get this book. It's so great. She, you know, she references the ache, and. And I guess it was. It's comforting to know that everybody feels that, you know, in some way.

[Pen Holderness]

I talked about my ache. What's. Like, what specifically? What does your ache look like?

[Kim Holderness]

My ache shifts. I feel like, you know, when it's our, you know, kids are doing great, I feel like I'm on top of the world. If a kid is having a struggle, like, I always have that gnawing feeling. Right. Because I love them so deeply and. Or if it's a something in our work that could have been better or something that could have gone a different way, I feel like I was. I thought that was just me being a more negative person, but the way she describes it and puts it, I'm like, oh, that's just the human condition.

[Pen Holderness]

Even the most happy people on the planet, they've all got this ache.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, I hate that other people feel that too, but also. So it's oddly comforting to know that.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, so we do this in every podcast, and it's. It's sort of. If you're a loyal listener, it's. It's taken on many shapes. We started calling it pens. Nugs. Pens. Nuggets of wisdom.

[Pen Holderness]

Like the three things.

[Kim Holderness]

The three things. The three pack that pen took from this podcast. We were waiting for a nug sponsor. Never happened. Then because of my cookie cake obsession, we changed it to, like.

[Pen Holderness]

Like how the cookie crumbles. Yeah, we changed it to. So I was a cookie, but.

[Kim Holderness]

But now we should head to the laugh line, because I think we got another.

[Pen Holderness]

We got a suggestion. Okay, great. Let's hear it.

[Listener/Caller]

Hey, this is Julie from Oregon, and I just listened to a couple of your podcasts, and you were talking about you needed a replacement for the pins nuggets. So I say no new nuggets. Instead, you need morsels that matter or mattering morsels. Keep up the great work. Thanks for making this look laugh. You guys are great, and you really matter to my day. And I get a lot of housework done listening to your podcast because it keeps me going and makes me want to keep working because I Want to keep listening, so thank you, but I think you need morsels that matter. Talk to you guys later. Bye.

[Kim Holderness]

And we just had a whole podcast on mattering. Yeah, I love this.

[Pen Holderness]

I see some good opportunities. I see one small drawback.

[Kim Holderness]

What is that?

[Pen Holderness]

Okay, the. The opportunity is a morsel. What do we think of? We think of a chip. A chocolate chip. Right. Great. So if you make me into a chocolate chip, what does that look a lot like?

[Kim Holderness]

A little bit like poo.

[Pen Holderness]

Like, dude, spooky.

[Kim Holderness]

So could you make him into poop right now?

[Pen Holderness]

I think I'm gonna have to be a big chocolate chip. It's gonna look great.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, what are your morsels that matter? Pen.

[Pen Holderness]

Okay, I had three. You just said one of them, so I may, like, do a replacement.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Pen Holderness]

Okay. Number one, Joy is unexpected. That's, like, the definition of joy. Like, she delineated the difference between joy and happiness, where joy is something that. That creeps in without you. You realizing and that it's, like, something you should be receptive to and enjoy and never be embarrassed to feel, no matter how inopportune of a time it could happen.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Pen Holderness]

So joy is unexpected. I loved, like, one of the things she said. Joy can carry you. She talked about how one of her most joyful moments was right after she got her stage four cancer diagnosis and felt bubble wrap loved by people in her community. And that was Joy. That, again, she was receptive to, understood, didn't feel guilty about feeling happy about something as this was happening and. And, like, it carried her. That was really cool. And, like, so my number three was gonna be. That routine gets in the way of joy. You said that, so that's fine. My new third morsel is maybe don't introduce your husband as the person who hates the team that your guest loves the most as the first her staying in the show.

[Kim Holderness]

That was my be. I'm sorry. I just, you know, wanted a little icebreaker.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

We welcomed her into our home, and then we immediately.

[Pen Holderness]

And I'm wearing these shoes, but I thought that would be subtle.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. I loved this show, and I love Kate Bowler, and.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah, well, that's that. If you loved her so much, why don't we ask her to come back and read the credits?

[Kim Holderness]

Through the magic of the Internet, here's Kate Bowler reading our show credits.

[Kate Bowler]

Laugh Lines is written and produced by Kim Holderness, Pen Holderness, and Ann Marie Timpinki.

[Pen Holderness]

Pretty good.

[Kate Bowler]

With original music by Pen Holderness. Oh, that's cute. Nice. It is filmed, edited, and live produced by Sam Allen. And hosted by acast. That's a good one. Yeah, that's a really good one. As always, we love to hear from you. Please write to [e-mail] and and leave a voicemail at 323-364-3929. We swear that's a real number.

[Pen Holderness]

We have a landline.

[Kate Bowler]

We'll talk to you soon.

[Kim Holderness]

Wave a landline on the laughline.

[Kate Bowler]

Yay.

[Kim Holderness]

You did it.

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[Kate Bowler]

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