Hamilton, Hearing Loss, & Sing-Alongs with Alex Lacamoire

Summary

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Laugh Lines with Kim & Penn Holderness

Broadway, Hearing Loss & Joy: An Interview with Alex Lacamoire

Episode Date: September 30, 2025

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Overview

In this special Broadway edition of Laugh Lines, Kim and Penn Holderness welcome acclaimed music director, arranger, and orchestrator Alex Lacamoire—the Grammy, Emmy, and Tony Award-winning genius behind Hamilton, In the Heights, Dear Evan Hansen, and more. This heartfelt and joy-filled episode explores Alex's creative process, the challenges of hearing loss, the power of intentional friendship in adulthood, and the musical magic that brings people together. The conversation also includes delightful moments with Alex's wife, life coach Ileana Ferreiras, insights on aging, joyful sing-alongs, and an impromptu game of Broadway lyric trivia.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Challenge and Beauty of Making Friends as Adults

• Kim and Penn discuss how hard it is to make friends intentionally as you age, touching on their own journey to befriending Alex and Ileana ([03:00]).
  • Kim: "Making friends as an adult is very hard... You have to be really intentional about it." ([04:21])
  • Penn: "It was like a five-year-old walking up to another five-year-old and saying, we're going to be friends." ([04:48])
• They emphasize the importance and effort of nurturing adult friendships.

2. Friendship Origin Story: The Holdernesses & Lacamores

• Alex recollects how Ileana introduced him to the Holderness Family’s videos during the pandemic.
• Alex: "I reached out to you on Instagram, but I didn’t hear back... I definitely dropped the Hamilton card." ([18:23 - 19:48])
• Penn describes thinking it was a prank when Alex finally emailed, signing off, “by the way, Alex Lacamoire.” ([20:09])

3. Spotlight on Alex Lacamoire

a. Early Life, Passion for Music, and The Gift of a Piano ([36:06 - 40:20])

• Alex’s early musical affinity, including receiving his first upright piano as a gift from his cousin.
  • Alex: "There was no way that I was going to let anything get in the way of that gift. Like, you needed that in your life." ([35:59 - 36:06])
  • Explains that music was always non-negotiable for him—his path was set from childhood.

b. Hearing Loss & Creativity ([21:01 - 24:38])

• Diagnosed with significant sensorineural hearing loss at four, Alex describes adapting, using hearing aids, and eventually hiding them due to childhood embarrassment.
• Alex: "Music is something that my hearing loss never affected... I'm just gonna hear it at a softer volume than you. I might not hear the hi-hat and triangle the way you would, but I'm still feeling the music in the same way." ([21:18])
• Leans on others for fine frequencies but mostly trusts his instincts and references popular music as his North Star in production quality.

c. What Does a Broadway Music Director/Arranger/Orchestrator Actually Do? ([24:38 - 26:42])

• Alex: “Music director…casting actors, teaching the music to actors, conducting the show, rehearsing. Arranger…helping transitions, endings for songs, underscoring, vocal arrangements. Orchestrator… detail work. I want the violins to do this, the acoustic guitar here—but not a steel string, a nylon acoustic.”
• He loves being a “musical doula”—helping birth and shape songs. ([27:00])

d. Hamilton Backstage: Arranging, Orchestrating, and Synesthesia ([27:50 - 34:06])

• Receives early demos from Lin Manuel Miranda, describing the excitement and “synesthesia”—seeing colors in keys.
  • Alex: “Somewhere I will, like, envision my fingers on a keyboard...I could probably play you the drum groove. I wasn’t listening to the drum specifically, but...it was making an impact on me.” ([28:43])
• Talks about his unique contributions, especially to string arrangements in "Washington On Your Side" ([29:55]):
  • Alex: "It's so hip hop base. I couldn't quite get it...you want it to be tense. Very staccato, very crisp and curt."

e. Orchestrating the Emotional Finale of Hamilton ([32:28 - 34:06])

• His favorite moment: orchestrating "Who Lives, Who Dies, Who Tells Your Story."
  • Alex: “I wanted it to feel as peaceful as possible, because the show ends with a sigh. How do I try to make the orchestration have a sigh as well?”
• Shares pride at completing the score after eight months of painstaking work.

f. The White House Performance & Serendipity ([34:18 - 35:42])

• Recalls accompanying Lin-Manuel Miranda for the first public performance of a Hamilton song in the Obama White House, before the show was written.

g. Broadway as a Community & Craft

• Broadway demands “excellent food every single night” ([40:52]), referencing the need for fresh, live performance energy.

h. Emotional Connection & Service Mentality ([42:07 - 44:43])

• Kim: “You are so happy to create for other people...and to see other people reach [their goals].”
• Alex: “If someone says, Alex, play a song on the piano, I freeze...but if someone wants to sing a song and they need a pianist, sign me up. If I can be of service, I’m there.” ([43:57 - 44:43])

4. Music, Color, and Feeling: Exploring Synesthesia in Practice ([46:29 - 48:09])

• Alex demonstrates how different keys evoke specific colors and feelings—B-flat is “brown and warm,” B major is sharper, more yellow-orange; C major evokes blue.
• Penn and Alex bond over having learned the same 80s pop songs growing up.

5. Sing-Alongs, Games, and Musical Improv

• Impromptu performances of “It’s Not Easy Being Green,” “Rainbow Connection,” and Broadway classics, blending humor and affection ([48:54 - 54:06]).
• Kim hosts a “Finish the Broadway Lyrics” quiz among the crew.

6. Affirmation & Original Song Dedication ([54:22 - 55:43])

• Penn (in 32 seconds) concocts a song about Alex’s achievements, humility, and synesthetic musical gifts:
  • “He sees music as true colors, and that’s why he’s my bro. So don’t be afraid to see music as true colors…”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Choosing Music Despite Hearing Loss:
  "Music is something that my hearing loss never affected. How I related to music on an emotional level..." —Alex ([21:18])

• On Orchestrating Hamilton’s Finale:
  "I just remember being inspired and thinking to myself—I’m going to try to make this as story driven as possible, try to have it feel as peaceful as possible, because the show ends with a sigh. How do I try to make the orchestration have a sigh as well?" —Alex ([33:13])

• On Synesthesia:
  "Have you heard the thing that certain key signatures have, like, certain colors attached to them? Like E-flat major is way warmer than D major. D major is sharp and brittle. B major is just very cooling." —Alex ([31:55])

• On Being of Service:
  "If I’m there to accompany someone or be a part of a thing…if I can be of service, I’m there." —Alex ([44:43])

• On Intentional Friendship:
  "It was like a five-year-old walking up to another five-year-old and saying, we're going to be friends. And it was the coolest experience ever.” —Kim ([04:48])

• On Humility:
  "He's one of the most talented humans...but he's also one of the most humble." —Kim ([08:55])

• Musical Improvisation:
  Penn and Alex’s riffing, sing-alongs, and spontaneous creation of a song for Alex, blending Broadway and pop cultures.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:00 — The Holdernesses on the challenge and magic of adult friendships
• 06:18 — Alex’s bio: awards and story of hearing loss
• 07:01 — Introduction of Ileana Ferreiras, Alex’s wife and life coach
• 18:23 — How Alex and the Holdernesses became friends
• 21:01 — Alex describes his hearing loss and relationship to music
• 24:38 — What does a music director, arranger, and orchestrator actually do?
• 27:50 — Alex on receiving demos from Lin-Manuel Miranda and the creative process
• 29:55 — Unique string arrangements for Hamilton
• 32:28 — Orchestrating “Who Lives, Who Dies, Who Tells Your Story”
• 34:18 — Performing at the Obama White House
• 36:06 — Early musical development and education
• 40:52 — The demands and rewards of Broadway
• 42:07 — Emotional connections in creating music
• 46:44 — Demonstrating music-color synesthesia on piano
• 48:54 — “Rainbow Connection” sing-along
• 50:14 — Broadway lyric trivia game
• 54:22 — Original song for Alex Lacamoire

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Tone & Atmosphere

• Warm, playful, and uplifting
• A blend of reverence for musical genius and humility, with a sense of joy and camaraderie
• Emphasizes the intersection of creativity, service, and friendship in aging well and living generously

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Conclusion

In this Broadway-filled, laughter-packed episode of Laugh Lines, listeners are treated to an intimate portrait of Alex Lacamoire—his musical magic, indomitable spirit, and the central role of kindness and collaboration. His story is a testament to resilience, creativity, and the enduring power of music (and friendship) to lift all boats. Whether you’re a casual listener or a Broadway superfan, you’ll leave humming a tune and feeling inspired.

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Transcript

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[A]

All right, Kim, let's talk about something no one wants to talk about.

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[A]

You really are the world's most talented muppet. I love it.

[B]

There was no way that I was going to let anything get in the way of that Gift. Like you needed that in your life.

[A]

This is what we call the Muppet Show.

[D]

That's gonna be their favorite episode of all time.

[A]

Yeah, we get older every day. Got more wrinkles.

[D]

That's okay.

[A]

Yeah, we're laughing. When we age, life is like a comedy st. That's why we got laugh lines.

[D]

Hey, everybody, I'm Kim Holderness.

[A]

And I'm Penn Holderness. And I'm pumped about laugh Lines today special edition. Let's go.

[D]

Broadway edition.

[A]

It is the Tony award winning laugh lines iconic musical musician version of Laugh lines.

[D]

Too much, Too much, too much.

[A]

Sorry.

[D]

We are hoping laugh lines gets an egot and this is our best chance.

[A]

How would that work?

[D]

No.

[A]

So does YouTube count for no? Do they give up for.

[D]

They win none of it. They win none of it.

[A]

But if we made a musical out.

[D]

Of laugh lines, okay, if you spent any amount of time perfecting your bubble letters to write your name in bubble letters, you're home. We are your people. You know, this podcast and this theme of this podcast is meant to celebrate aging and all of the particular things that happen as we go through this one wild and crazy life. And one of those things is like making friends, right? And making friends as an adult is very hard.

[A]

So think about this. You made friends when you were very young in a sandlot and you just walked up to someone and said, you're my friend.

[D]

You're my friend.

[A]

You go to college, it's just built into it, right? You get out of college, there's like bars you go to. Boom. It's easy.

[D]

Well, I think out of, when you're out of college, you in the workplace, like the institution of a workplace is where you meet your friends.

[A]

Okay, fair enough. Now, like, you kind of have to work at it, right? Or be intentional about it.

[D]

You have to be really intentional about it. And it's a really good thing. We have people in our life and that are intentional about it. Because we suck. No, we're getting better.

[A]

No, but this is a really cool story. Like, we, like, the people you're about to meet on this show are our friends. I think first and foremost, they, I mean, happen to be incredibly extraordinary people. But. But it was like an intentional friendship. Let's. Yeah, friendship.

[D]

Like it was like a five year old walking up to another five year old saying, we're going to be friends. And it was the. It's been the coolest experience ever. And I think it has taught me, they have taught me a lot about starting a friendship and maintaining it. They are, they are Very good at this. But I think we need to just get to it.

[A]

We should. We gotta do a quick housekeeping.

[D]

Oh, that's right. So we have a job.

[A]

We do have a job. In a couple of weeks from this airing, you guys, we've got another book coming out and we're really excited about it. It's called all you can be with adhd. It is a children's, like, rhythmic version of adhd. Is awesome. Very easy read for children of really all ages or parents, of course, of any age, about, like the good parts of adhd, but also like coming to grips with really all that it is, which is sometimes something that it's hard to explain to kids.

[D]

You can pre order and that's very helpful for us.

[A]

Yes.

[D]

And it's all you can be with ADHD.com.

[A]

So. Anybody heard of Hamilton? No.

[D]

No.

[B]

Doesn't ring a bell.

[A]

Doesn't ring a bell. Like, most amazing Broadway hit of all time, like, crazy popular, like, changed the entire culture of Broadway. Like, had teenagers and 10 year olds and 30 year olds and 40 year olds all singing along in their cars. Alex Locamore is a Grammy, Emmy and Tony Award winning music director, arranger and orchestrator. Best known for shaping not only the sound of Hamilton, but also in the Heights and dear Evan Hansen.

[D]

He has also lent his talents to film and TV projects like the greatest showman and Netflix. Tick, tick, boom.

[A]

What makes Alex's story even more extraordinary is that he was born with significant hearing loss and is partially deaf, yet he has gone on to create, arrange, and conduct some of the most celebrated scores in modern theater. His journey is proof that passion, persistence, and creativity can transcend any obstacle.

[D]

For more on Alex, we'll go to the one who knows him best.

[A]

We're stealing this directly from Amy Poehler because we love her, but on Good hanging, she'll bring out, like someone who knows the person well.

[D]

Yes. So we are bringing Ileana Ferreiras, Alex's wife.

[A]

Also, she's a trauma certified master, NLP practitioner and ICF certified life coach, which I feel like we could all use. Right. And so we're gonna get some questions from her.

[D]

Welcome to the show, Ileana.

[E]

Welcome me.

[D]

So we call Alex and Ileana our new old friends. Yes. We're so just thankful for your friendship. Okay.

[E]

Likewise.

[D]

Okay, first of all, you work as a coach. You have a lot of certification. Every conversation we have, you fix a part of me say like, I was like, oh, my God, you're so right. So how does that. I mean, you work with creative people yes. Yeah. So are you. Do you. Do you do this voodoo magic on Alex's brain and that's how he's so creative? No.

[E]

That's probably why we've lasted as long as we have. No, no, no, no.

[A]

You don't go separation of church and.

[E]

State, if you will, a thousand percent.

[D]

But tell us about your work real quick.

[E]

So I am a life coach and I basically co create things with people. People come to me and they say, I want to have my life look like X. And then we work on the plan to make X happen.

[D]

I love that. And you end up working with a lot of creative people. That's who you attract.

[E]

I tend to attract people who work with people mostly, but yes, very often they are performers, directors, writers.

[A]

I know the story, but like, quick, quick story. How did you and Alex meet?

[E]

We met serendipitously.

[A]

That's it.

[E]

And fortuitously we were seeing a mutual friend's cabaret act in New York City and we were both waiting online to say, you know, congrats, like, you did awesome. And some guy or some gal I think it was, jumped directly in front of me right when it was my turn to say goodnight to Henry and dragooned him into a conversation that lasted at least 20 minutes, at which point I turned to Alex, who was conveniently right behind me, and I said, can you believe this? I've been waiting for 20 minutes. And like. And so we started talking.

[D]

You are married to one of the most talented humans I've ever seen, but he's also one of the most humble. So we have you here because we need you to. He's not gonna say these things about himself.

[E]

Never.

[D]

So. So tell us some fun facts that about Alex that no one gets to know.

[E]

He is very happy with his music. Like when he plays piano, he is smiling, he is joyful, like there is nothing but love emanating from his heart when he. And from his fingers, really from when he's playing the piano for friends or for guests or for anybody. And you've seen this, right? Like he's. It's just pure joy. And I think that may be a private thing, but it's also a public thing. But it's just constant. It's always there.

[D]

Again, he's not going to brag about himself, but he has been part of. He's very well known in the Hamilton world, but there's a lot of other things he's touched and they have turned to gold. So talk to us a little bit about that.

[E]

The first time I heard the music for Dear Evan Hansen. I was washing dishes in the kitchen and, you know, Justin Paul said good night. And we, you know, they were over at the.

[D]

Justin Paul's the writer of the music at Dear.

[E]

And Evan Hansen, he's the composer. I was doing dishes and the music stopped. Justin Paul said, goodnight. They were playing piano in the other room. And I said to Alex, what was that? And you've got to work on it.

[A]

Really?

[E]

Yeah. I said, whatever that was, you. You must work on that.

[A]

Why did he have to work on it? Do you think it had potential or do you think it was like, what was.

[E]

Well, here's the thing. Alex had been working on Hamilton for so long, And Alex gives 155% of his heart, brain, life and soul into everything he touches. And so he was so busy doing Hamilton at the time. And he said, babe, if I work on this, I will never see you. Like, I won't, you know. You won't. You won't see me. And I said, okay, bye. I said, bye.

[A]

That's what you're meant to do.

[E]

The musical theater community has nothing on me. They are not going to. I am blameless and faultless. I have not taken Alex away from the musical theater community. In fact, I have given him to you on a platter. You can have him, like, you know, and I, I wanted him to work on this because he is just such a contribution. Everything he touches, like you said, Gold, it's just he. He makes everything. And I, you know, I get emotional when I think about it. But the thing that touches me the most about Alex is that he lifts people up. Whatever, whatever he is dealing with, whatever he's touching, it just like magically, all boats rise when he's in the room. And I wanted him to work on this so that, you know, more. More boats could rise, you know, more. More genres could be impacted and, you know, and. And the music for Dear Evan Hansen was like, I mean, just stunning. I don't even know what it was that I heard, but I, like, I was. It was like a message from God. It was like, he must work on it.

[D]

So really, Dear Evan Hansen was so special because Alex Leclemore Lockmore touched it. And we have you to thank so. Well, really. Thank you. Eliana Musical, you know him best. He is so very humble. What are some questions we can really ask him that. That you don't hear other people asking him?

[E]

Well, everybody asks him about, like, how he wrote the music and how he, you know, created this or what melody or what stems or I don't know, whatever, you know, like, musical terminology. But I always wonder, like, what emotion was behind whatever he creates. Right. Like, like, what was. What was the impetus for, like, this chord progression or this, you know, like, why did he do, you know, five violins here? Or why, like, that's a good example. Does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah. No. We should ask him about that. Because if you look at his most impactful work on Hamilton, and there was a lot of it, right. But there were no strings before him.

[E]

Right.

[A]

It's amazing. He's got some. He's got some Beethoven in him. Right. He's got, like an incredible musical genius. He also has a hearing impairment. I know he's humble about that as well. He does a really good job listening to you, I got to say. Like, I. He's been. He's incredibly attentive to his wife and everybody and to me and to everyone, which I think is also kind of something that he could just be like, sorry, guys.

[E]

He is genuinely curious about people and he's interested and getting to know them and understanding the reasons why people operate that way. And. Yeah, I mean, I'm blessed. We've been together 17 years, 14 married. And yeah, he's very good at listening and he's very good at anticipating people's needs, which is why I think he's so good at being the right hand person and the glue in the room, because he kind of knows what is needed ahead of time, if that makes sense.

[D]

Yeah, that's a really good point.

[E]

And he anticipates that need and, like, tries to fulfill it.

[A]

Oh, God, that'd be like the perfect husband or wife.

[E]

Yeah, I mean, he kind of.

[D]

He kind of is.

[E]

I mean, what is it you always say? Hands off, lady.

[D]

Hands off lady.

[A]

But she usually does that after I do something really unattractive as a joke or I think it's a joke. I assume that it's a joke when you do it.

[D]

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[B]

Hi friends.

[A]

It's Alex Lochimore, everyone.

[B]

Yay.

[A]

That was more like a Sesame street introduction, but it matches your energy. You really are the world. World's most talented Muppet.

[B]

I love it. I'm like Ralph on the piano.

[D]

The joyful. Yes, a really talented golden retriever is really what Alex Lockamore is. Okay, first question is, how are we friends? How do we know each other?

[B]

Okay, so my wife is the one that turned me on to you guys, and it was during the pandemic that she started showing me videos. She showed me Libido Killer. I also remember seeing Pen do this, like, one take of, like, a parodying a bunch of songs back to back. And then Ileana's like, babe, we should be friends with these people. They're like, exactly like us. Like, the husband's a musician, the wife is neurotic. And so what's funny is that at the time, I reached out to you on Instagram, but I didn't hear back. And, like, oh, we probably just got into their other.

[D]

You get a lot of messages, of course.

[B]

And I totally understand. And then we both read your book. Everybody fights. And that made such an impact. I'm like, okay, I should try to reach out again. And then I went to the website and reached out and, like, you know, because I didn't know how it was going to be received, I definitely, like, dropped the Hamilton card. Like, hey, I noticed that you parodied Hamilton, which is a show I worked on. I love you guys work. Because we were so into the idea of just hanging out with you because your videos are so brilliant. They're so amazing. They're so funny. And the way you two present yourselves and the way you interact with each other was just something. There's just the love between you so apparent, and your fun is so. It just glows in a beam. So there was something very magnetic, and we just felt some kinship and felt like we wanted to reach out and be friends with you.

[A]

So the email goes into our inbox, and I know who Alex Locamore is. Clearly, we know he wrote Hamilton. I don't know how we didn't get.

[B]

The message, but we didn't get the message.

[D]

Yeah, he orchestrated Hamilton, but he didn't.

[A]

Put that until the very bottom of the. Of the email. I was like, oh, great, great, great. Thanks for the book. Thanks. By the way, Alex Lockemore. I'm like, what? So I thought I was getting.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Scammed, catfished, or punked or. It was like, I thought it because in my world of writing, composing, and arranging music, that would be, I guess, for most people, like, someone saying, did all this, by the way, I'm Sting.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And so, like, we talked about how, like, How. How do we.

[D]

I.

[A]

What do we say? I don't want to sound desperate, but.

[D]

Like, it's, well, obviously emailed back right away and Penn said, you're gonna have to take a picture of yourself with today's newspaper.

[A]

It did.

[D]

So we know it's actually you. Anyway, so started our friendship and we are so lucky to know you.

[B]

Same, same.

[D]

Yeah. It has been just wonderful to get to know you. So.

[B]

Likewise. Likewise.

[D]

Okay, you're an actual musical genius, but let's just get this out of the way. You were diagnosed pretty early with some hearing loss.

[B]

Yes.

[D]

Okay. So I think the beautiful part of your story is you do something that is so uniquely deporting on your ears. But there was that initial diagnosis. Whatever. Did that ever dissuade you from getting into music?

[B]

Fortunately, not. So around when I was four years old, my mom noticed that I would sit really close to the TV or she would notice that she would call me from the other room and I wouldn't respond. So they gave me a hearing test and learned that I have a sensorineural hearing loss. And I got hearing aids when I was younger. And hearing aids aren't usually covered by insurance. And at some point we could only afford one hearing aid for me as an update. And then in junior high school, I got self conscious about them so I wouldn't wear them at all. It's a whole story, but I feel as though music is something that my hearing loss never affected. How I related to music on an emotional level, the way I describe it to people is I have certain frequencies I'm not very good at. And let's say we're all three of us listening to a stereo system. I'm gonna still hear that stereo. I'm just gonna hear it at a softer volume than you. And I might not hear like the hi hat and the triangle the way you would, but I'm still feeling the music in the same way. So as a result, I know what music sounds like to me. So when I'm mixing a record or making an arrangement, I'm still searching for a goal. Like, I still love the way the Beatles records sound. Right. I still love the way a certain record sounds. So I'm chasing that. So that's my relationship to it. But fortunately, it has never really impeded me. And there are times when I know I can lean on other people and be like, hey, I can't tell if that frequency is too loud or not. You tell me. So that's helpful.

[A]

To be clear, you're an arranger, so that, you know, an arranger takes all the music and puts it together on all frequencies. You're talking about the hi hat. That's your responsibility. Like this is. You're not an audio mixer, which that probably wouldn't be your job. But it's still amazing to me that someone who doesn't hear as well on all levels is arranging extraordinarily like the highest level music out there on Broadway.

[B]

Well, I appreciate it.

[A]

You just have to guess sometimes.

[B]

It's interesting. Arranging and orchestrating, by and large, I do consider to be guesswork because especially when you're orchestrating, you know, you're envisioning, okay, I'm going to have 15 musicians, 25 musicians, whatever, playing this music. And you're staring in my case at a screen, you're playing chords on the piano and you're thinking to yourself, okay, I think this works. You're making educated guesses the whole time. And after a while you get better at making those educated guesses because you know what's going to work, you know what's not going to work, and then you, you know, figure out where you can take chances and we're not. But it is trial and error. So in a way, I, I think, you know, you just have to draw on what you know to be true. You have to follow your gut. And at the end of the day, it is really just like just going shooting for the moon and going forward.

[A]

In that case, like, how does it feel when it must feel like striking oil when you hit that thing or like, there it is.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And that really. I mean, I'm sure you know this as creatives too. Like, you toil and you work and work until something just feels right. Until you get to the point where you either say to yourself, I have no other ideas to make this better, or you say, there's nothing about this that is pulling my focus or pulling my attention. I'm done, I can move on. But I'm the type that does not rest until.

[D]

Yeah, it's perfect.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. I will spend two hours getting four measures of music right if I feel they aren't right yet. So I'm always chasing that ideal.

[D]

Okay. For the non theater people listening and for the normies like me who aren't musicians. Tell me exactly what it is you do and some of your different job titles.

[B]

Yeah, so there's a ton stuff that I love to do. I usually tell people that I'm a music director first and in a theatrical setting that involves casting actors, that involves teaching the music to the actors sitting behind a piano and saying, altos sing this, baritones sing that, rehearsing that. In some cases, it has to do with conducting the show, perhaps playing keyboard for that show, maintaining that show in the long run. Then there's the arranging piece, which is basically helping transitions, maybe coming up with endings for songs, coming up with underscoring for scenes, coming up with vocal arrangements, perhaps making a dance arrangement. Like, if the choreographer says, hey, I want to dance for eight measures, I need something instrumental, I might come up with that music. I'm also a producer for Records, which is mapping out how we record an album. Right. How many days does it take? How many hours of studio time? What time do we do this? Mixing the record, mastering the record, all that stuff, being involved with all those things. So there's a lot of different things I do, but by and large, I love all of it. And I don't like to just do one thing. I find that I'm very opinionated about music in terms of how I want it to sound. So I enjoy when I can have that creative freedom to be like, hey, I actually like it to sound this way. And I can arrange it to sound this way. I can also orchestrate it to sound this way. Oh, I didn't talk about orchestration. Sorry. Orchestration's the other thing I do, which is the specifics. If arranging is big picture stuff, orchestrating is detail work and saying to yourself, okay, I want the violins to do this, and writing it down. I want the acoustic guitar to play here. But it's not a steel string acoustic. It's a nylon acoustic. And it will play these notes and making those kinds of decisions as well. So all of those things are things I love to do.

[D]

It just sounds to me like somebody could hand you, like, this is basically what I want it to sound like. And you make it sound like what we hear on the stage.

[B]

That's usually what I do. It's kind of like I'm an executor or a doula, if you will. I help birth the song. Yes, right.

[D]

Because you're a musical doula.

[B]

That's kind of what I do. Because especially I thrive on when someone hands a demo and it's in its earliest stages, it could be just a piano and a voice. And if I hear that song and I, in my head, can hear what the band is doing, I feel like, yes, I can contribute to this piece and be a part of it.

[A]

All right. This is a great segue. And we've covered before this that you have Touched so many amazing musicals. Dear Evan Hansen, Greatest Showman. A lot of excitement about what's coming up with Greatest Showman. And you will talk about it later. Obviously, Hamilton was. Was kind of the biggest touch point, maybe for those of us who are listening. And I love. You were just talking about, like, getting these basic tracks. So you get this in the middle of the night and do what?

[B]

So the first thing is, I'm like, wow, what Lynn wrote is amazing.

[A]

Yeah. Why is it 2:00am yeah. Well, also.

[B]

And somewhere in my mind, I'm also like, how lucky am I to be one of the first people in the world to hear a new song that he's written? I don't take that for granted, because when Lin Manuel writes a song for a piece that I'm working on, he'll send it to me, he'll send it to Tommy. He'll want our feedback and our thoughts. So it's pretty exciting to know that I'm one of the first people in the world to hear these songs that people know so well. And then it becomes about, okay, like, I. I somehow somewhere start to picture, okay, what are the drums gonna do? Like, what is the bass line? Like, what is the piano part gonna do? So usually I kind of get to work right away, even if I'm not actually with a pen and paper or at my computer screen. There's something. It's almost like. What's that?

[A]

Where is it?

[B]

Synesthesia, where you, like, see colors when you hear music? It's something like that. And I know even when I'm listening to music on the radio, there's a part of my brain that is not shutting off. And I might be listening to a new song. And somewhere I will, like, envision my fingers on a keyboard. And somewhere, like, my ear will tune into what the drums are doing. You know, there's this thing, it's pretty interesting where even subliminally. Subliminally, I'm paying attention to music in a way that I'm not aware of, whereby I could hear a song taking the song, and you'll turn it off, and two minutes later, I could probably play you the drum groove. I wasn't listening to the drum specifically, but I clearly was aware of what it was doing and it was making an impact on me. So I'm always kind of breaking apart music. I'm always kind of theoretically and mechanically thinking about it while trying to still feel it at the same time.

[A]

Based on just, like, Lin Manuel with, like, a click track, just his voice, all of those things. Are coming. And then obviously, the finished product, it's got your fingerprints all over it, particularly with Hamilton. And I know this. I don't know that you've told a lot of people this, but were there strings before you with Hamilton?

[B]

So there were strings in Lynn's head? Yeah, sometimes they were on the demo. Yeah, but specifically what the strings are playing, like, the. The parts, the answers that they have between the vocals, like, the lines that they do. Sometimes Lin would chime in on that. But I would say for the most part, they were ideas that I had, suggestions that I had. You know, a great example is Washington on your side, which is a really cool song. Really cool. Like, and the groove is kind of, like. It kind of sits. You kind of bob your head to it. And as I got to it, it was time to orchestrate. And I'm like, what do strings do on a song like this? It's kind of. It's so hip hop base. I couldn't quite get it. And just somewhere along the line, I'm like, okay, you want it to be tense. You want it to be very staccato, very crisp, and very kind of like curt. And then once I kind of unlock that, I started to be like, does this work? I don't know. Are people going to like it? And then once I get the feedback, once I hear that Lynn is into it and our directors into it, our choreographers into it, then I can keep going. But there is that moment of doubt. And as creatives, I'm sure you know what that is like, right? It's. Is it. Is this good? I don't know. You kind of need just that one person to be like, yeah, keep going. And then you'll feel good about it. But there is again, that guesswork, and there is that. That instinct that you have to follow. So I got an idea, and it was story based, and it was like a groove and vibe based. So you just got to go off that instinct.

[D]

I love so much that Alex, like, you know how it is. We make videos for Instagram and he's. He's made one of the greatest musicals.

[A]

He's been. He's being humble again. I think he's trying to give. So I am like, the synesthesia thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I. On a much lower level.

[D]

You have that.

[A]

That.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

And so it's. I've never heard that term. And there is. I'm. I'm empathizing in the way that my son empathizes with LeBron James. Sure. As a basketball player. So, like, it's like, it's. Yeah, like that in that way.

[B]

So have you heard the thing that certain key signatures have, like, certain colors attached to them? Like, E flat major is way warmer than, like, D major. D major is sharp and brittle. B major is just very cooling.

[D]

Where we're going to go to the keys at some point here, and we're going to have to have you show us.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

The colors of the sound.

[B]

You got it.

[D]

Yeah. Is there a particular. You've worked on such big shows. Is there a particular piece. You just mentioned Washington on your side, but is, like, a favorite that you were able to transform or, you know, make an addition to?

[B]

I usually say that one of my favorite things to orchestrate was the final song in Hamilton, and I think I just have really special memories attached to it because it's the last song in the show. It's the last piece I orchestrated, and I didn't get to hear it until the morning that we first performed the entire show for the actors and the directors and, you know, all the patrons who were going to come see our first rehearsal with the band. And I just remember just a certain kind of peace about that song about where it lands in the show and the themes that I kind of wove in.

[A]

Is it where they're talking about all the quotes?

[B]

Yeah. So basically, it's the last song in the show called who Lives, who Dies, Who Tells yous Story? There's a moment where Eliza says the lyric, I rely on Angelica. And I thought to myself, okay, I'm gonna play the Angelica theme on the Angelica instrument because the harp represents Angelica in our show. There's a moment where Eliza enters and I repurposed the piano part from her song Burn that we've heard 20 minutes prior. And how do you make it from A minor to A major? I just remember just being inspired and thinking to myself, I'm gonna try to make this as story driven as possible, try to have it feel as peaceful as possible, because the show ends with a sigh. How do I try to make the orchestration have a sigh as well? And I just remember just being really proud and also just that feeling of like, oh, my God, I'm done. I did took eight months to orchestrate Hamilton, and to know that I had reached the finish line was. Was very gratifying.

[A]

Orchestrating. Was that before or after the White House?

[B]

Much after. Yeah. The White House was 2009, and the Hamilton. We didn't premiere Off Broadway until 2015.

[D]

So we should back up and explain.

[A]

But I want to. Yeah, like, I sure. So you were in the White House. Yes, with Lin Manuel Miranda. He brought one. One dude for the. Right. It was just. It was YouTube, just the two of us, to. To perform the first verse of Hamilton, which wasn't even completed at that point. Right.

[B]

It was. Lynn had written the song. Yeah, but it wasn't the musical. Yeah, no, he. He had only written one song. Yeah, exactly. It was not a fully formed show at all. And that was amazing. That was one of the most exciting experiences to be in the White House, particularly because Obama had just been elected and this was the first time that they were. It was Michelle Obama's idea to have basically like a spoken word poetry jam in the White House. It was just the coolest thing to be invited to. And I love that Lynn asked me to be a part of it. It was. You know, it could have been anyone, and he could have performed to a track or what have you could have asked a drummer to come with him. I don't know. But he. He and I were friends and we had done in the Heights together, and I think he just knew that if we both went in together, I would be able to arrange this song on the piano in a way that would be compelling and give the good. A good foundation for him to rap over. So I'm glad he called.

[D]

I think we really need to back up here. Okay. And tell you because I think we know you well enough that we know your story, so we've jumped all over the place.

[B]

Oh, please.

[D]

So, okay, so you were into music your whole life?

[B]

Yes.

[D]

You talk about your parents buying you sheet music and saving your money to buy sheet music.

[B]

You remember that story?

[D]

Yes. Okay, so this is something that is like, there was no chance you were not going to be a musician?

[A]

No.

[D]

Okay, so tell us, like, where'd you go to school? What? Like what? Sort of. So for the theater kids listening, what was your track? How did you get started?

[B]

So I've always loved music. I hear stories from my cousins that when I was 2, I would sit in front of the stereo speaker just transfixed by the music that was coming out of the speaker. I know that I was given a toy piano when I was 3 or 4 years old and that I would try to plunk along to songs on the radio on this piano. So there was clearly some affinity that I had for music, and they decided to give me lessons. And I have a cousin who, because she knew that my parents couldn't afford a piano for me, she, in probably her early 20s, took money out of her own bank account to buy me an upright piano. I have a vivid memory of, like, looking at the front door of my house in Los Angeles and seeing a truck unload an upright piano that I didn't know was coming, that my parents didn't know was coming. And it just showed up. So. And I remember saying to my cousin years later, when I was an adult, I'm like, like, what? What made you do that? And she's like, remo, it's like you had a gift. And, like, there was no way that I was going to let anything get in the way of that gift. Like, you needed that in your life. And even if your parents couldn't afford it, I was not gonna let that stop this from happening. And that was the most beautiful thing. So I would play my classical music, but I would also listen to pop music. I'm an 80s kid, so I grew up during the MTV era, so I loved playing pop songs on the piano. Like, whether it was Chariots of Fire or, like, Axeleff, Greatest Love of All. Yeah, we've got some deep cuts in there. And then around junior high school, I went to an arts high school called Southwood Middle School in Miami, and it was a magnet program. I was in the music department, and I was asked to play in the orchestra for the theater department's production of Bye Bye Birdie that summer. And I loved seeing my peers up on a stage singing and dancing. I loved that I could contribute to what they were doing. I loved that they had their lane and their strengths, and I was able to support them. So I got bit by the theater bug pretty early, particularly because when you're growing up doing classical music, you're kind of. It's a pretty solitary experience. You're by yourself, practicing by yourself over and over and over again. But here you are in a theater setting where everyone's happy, everyone's, like, making jokes and like, I play, you sing, we do this together. I love that. I love being of service. So throughout high school, even though I studied my jazz and studied my classical, I still played with the theater kids. And then I went to Berkeley College of Music in Boston, thinking I was going to be a jazz pianist, studying rock, studying Stravinsky, studying all the things, but again, still accompanying theater kids at Boston Conservatory. And then lightning strike. Lightning struck. Lightning struck. When the Lion King was running on Broadway and they were doing a talent search in Boston, where I was living, they needed an audition pianist. I was the audition pianist. And then on the last day of auditions, the music director flies in from New York to Boston. And while he's there to hear potential candidates who want to be in the lion king, here's this 23 year old kid on the piano sight reading, playing Stevie Wonder songs off the top of his head, sight transposing music and putting them into other keys, playing well, such that he was able to say to me, alex, I hear you're moving to New York. Which I was. He's like, when you get there, give me a call. So I moved to New York on a Sunday. By the following Saturday, I was in the pit of the Lion King looking at people play the show with the hope that I would eventually be a substitute keyboard in Lion King. So through there I met a lot of great people. Through there I met Lin Manuel, through there I met Stephen Schwartz, et cetera. It goes on and on. But it was all one thing led to another. And I did not start out thinking to myself, hey, I want to be a theater kid. This is. I never said, this is my career. This is where I'm going to end up. It just. The doors opened, I walked in and I liked what. I was having a good time and people seemed to like what I was doing.

[D]

It's working out for you.

[A]

I will say it's very interesting seeing you in the Broadway world. We saw you conduct Sweeney Todd and just everyone from the pit all the way up to the actors, I think because of the fact that you started out playing the piano, there's this like crazy amount of respect from top to bottom. Is that, is that how it works for most people? Like, do you, do people just show up in their stars on Broadway or does it take generally a lot of work?

[B]

It definitely takes a lot of work. And I'm always so happy when a film actor or a TV actor tries to do theater and say, oh my God, theater is the hardest, so hard thing. I can't. I don't know how these people do it eight times a week, over and over again. Like it's. Yeah, exactly. And you realize how difficult and how effortless people can make theater appear to be. But my friend Tommy Kail, the director of Hamilton, has a great saying where he says, you know, theater is almost like being in a really good restaurant, whereby let's say you go to a fancy restaurant and you're there on a Wednesday and you've heard everybody say, hey, the food here is really, really good. If you're there, you don't care how the food was on Tuesday, you don't care how good the food is tomorrow. You want the Food to be great. So at a restaurant, those chefs have to serve up excellent food every single night because they were told it was really good. So theater's the same way every night. We set. We go to the theater fresh. We start over. We go from the beginning, and we have to, like, essentially create this great meal that people have been hearing about. So it's actually really. It's a lot of work, and I. But I'm very proud of the profession.

[D]

Your wife, we talked to earlier, and she had so many lovely things to say about you.

[B]

I love.

[D]

And one of the. Yeah, she's so good. One of the questions she wanted us to ask, and I want to make sure I get this.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

Is that what. You know, what are the emotions that you're feeling? You've referenced this already. It's like you're. You're feeling. Feeling it, and you're kind of seeing it. But, like, what are the emotions? Like, when you first hear that piece that you're trying to orchestrate? Like, what are the emotions you're trying to bring into it?

[B]

Wow. What a great question. Thanks, babe. The first thing I can think of is a magnetic pull. And I don't know if that's an emotion so much as it is, like, a connection. And I know that. I feel like I do my best work when I really feel like I've lived in a piece and have been exposed to it for a while, but I know that, like, when. When I hear music, that really moves me. Like, I could tear up. Like, I could, like, pound my fists. I could, like. You know, I don't know if you've ever seen me watch. If you've watched me watch music, but I can't sit still.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And, like, I hunch forward, and my. My head moves back. You know, there's a. There's a sense of me that is always trying to almost, like, be a part of it.

[D]

I think one of my favorite things about you and I want to. I would. Our world would be a better place if we could all learn this skill, is you are so happy to create for other people and to serve other people and to see other people reach. Like, if something good happens in our lives, you're the first to, like, celebrate us. And not. Not everybody does that. You're right. And truly not everybody.

[A]

That's right.

[D]

So, like, if we were going to teach this as a life skill, I mean, this. It truly makes you happy to see other people happy.

[B]

It does. It does.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

My family will be the first one to tell you this. If someone says, alex, play a song first on the piano, I freeze. I actually really don't enjoy that. I get self conscious about it. I'm like, what do they want to hear? Like, well, I really want to play this song, but they probably don't want to hear that. Like, you know what? So I edit myself constantly now. If someone wants to sing a song and they need a pianist, like, sign me up. I'm the first person there. If I'm there to accompany someone or be a part of a thing, what.

[A]

If I said, like, right now, like, I need to just, like, I just need to play the piano with Alex on this podcast.

[D]

I think that would be a great idea because I want to hear him play music and describe what it looks like.

[A]

Okay, but we need you to do this.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

This. This is a need based serving us.

[B]

And I can be of service.

[D]

You are serving us in the podcast community. More on this after these words.

[B]

Only.

[A]

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[C]

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[D]

I now present to you Alex, Lacamore and pen holderness doing whatever, by the way.

[A]

Alex and I just realized that we both like the first songs that we learned Were the songs the same songs. We're about the same age. Like, by going into our room and playing, like, to our synthesizers. Anyone? Anyone?

[D]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Kim.

[D]

What am I doing here? I know the song, honey. I just. Okay.

[A]

Nothing gets me down.

[D]

Okay, Alex, you mentioned that the different sat or different notes had different feelings for you. Can you kind of walk us through a scale and tell us what you see or what you feel as you're playing notes?

[B]

So B flat is a very popular key. A lot of jazz tunes are in B flat and I don't know why. There's something about it that I think is just kind of warm. The color brown comes to mind versus B major. I don't know. When I hear that, it feels a little sharper.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, more brighter.

[A]

Like yellowy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or the orange kind of spectrum. C major, still bright. So I'm gonna get that, like, a blue color kind of thing. Okay. Then D flat. I don't know. Even though there's something that feels a little warmer about it. So I'm gonna get that, like, kind of a yellowish kind of thing, but, like, not a bright. Bright, bright yellow. It's hard to describe, but it's. It has to do with the fact that this is very nerdy. So hopefully this isn't going too deep a dive. But I don't know if you knew this. A piano is never really perfectly in tune. Did you know this?

[A]

No.

[B]

There's this system called the well tempered tuning system, where a perfect fifth sounds exactly perfect, but for some reason, this note in the middle, the E, that is, like, not perfectly in tune. It's not the exact equidistant point between the scene.

[A]

Oh, no, it's not.

[B]

It's definitely not exactly. So, basically, Bach, around his time, they found a way to tune the piano in a way that it's not exactly perfect, but our ears are attuned to it, so we. Perfect.

[A]

That's wild.

[B]

Yeah, it's pretty deep and crazy.

[A]

What color is F? F major. Ninth.

[D]

What am I doing here?

[B]

Something about that G. I just got, like, an image of a cherry. I don't know why that.

[A]

This. That is the song I always play when I think that someone's about to sing, like, a cheesy lounge song.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Probably because it makes you think of.

[A]

There it is. Yeah. Well, thank God you're here to explain this to me. Okay.

[D]

Oh, a song that represents my favorite color. Well, I love green, so. Is there a screen?

[B]

There's a Miles Davis song called Blue and Green or It's Not Easy Being Green.

[D]

Hang on.

[A]

We gotta do it in Kermit's voice. It's not easy being green. Oh, can we do Rainbow Connection?

[B]

Yes. Yeah. Well, key. Start singing, I'll follow you.

[A]

Why are there so many songs about rainbows? But am I. Other side. I'll skip to the end. Someday, Someday we'll find it the rainbow connection the lovers, the dreamers and me that feels great.

[D]

Yeah. The happiest Muppet. The most.

[A]

Such a Muppet. I can't believe I didn't see it before. Yeah. It's time to get things started on the Muppet show tonight. He does anything. It's time to.

[B]

It's time to light the lights.

[A]

It's time to get things started. Inspirational desperation is why we come all about show Dude. You just say anything and it turns into a song that was a total.

[B]

Kind of like a. A stream of consciousness. Like, we went from, like, green to, like, miles. Rainbows to rainbows to.

[A]

Muppet show green sleeves.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

We are going to play a little game with you two gentlemen. Okay. It's called Finish the Broadway lyrics. My money's on Alex. So I'm going to say a. Some. Some words. I'm going to speak the lyrics, and then you're going to perimenopause.

[E]

Hi.

[D]

Yes. Whoever does it first, I'm guessing it's gonna be Alex. I'm gonna say words, and then you're. I'm gonna say the lyrics, and then you're gonna finish them.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

Okay. That was a really long perimenopause journey we just went on, and I appreciate you being here. Okay, Ready?

[B]

Okay.

[D]

Too late for second guessing Too late to go back to sleep it's time to time My instinct to close my.

[A]

Eyes Gloomy I think I'll try Defying gravity I think it's time Defying gravity and you won't hold me down.

[D]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

So if you want to find me to the western sky can't stop us. Yeah, Sorry.

[E]

You can't stop this.

[A]

No, you can't.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Okay. I feel like this is a team effort. Okay. This will just be team. Okay. In daylights and sunsets in midnights in cups of coffee in daylight in sunsets.

[A]

In moonlights in cups of coffee and the other things they say in the musical rain. 525,600 minutes I'm hearing the song that we wrote it's measured in love I sometimes. Seasons of love.

[B]

Seasons of love.

[A]

So, you guys. I forget sometimes the music to Broadway tunes because I've written a parody of it. Yeah, we did one called525. 600 Comments.

[B]

And you did one for.

[A]

And I did one for Wicked. That's why I was like. So if you want to find me, look to the peloton. It's ruined in my head. These amazing songs.

[D]

Okay, next. Suddenly Seymour is standing behind Beside you.

[A]

Suddenly Seymour is standing beside me he's actually Rick Moranis in the movie Little Shop of Horror. Do you know the words? Actually?

[D]

When the beating of your heart Echoes the beating of the drums Beating of your.

[A]

No, here it is. Echoes the beating of the drums with.

[B]

The beating of your heart Echoes that's all we get.

[A]

It's when the beating of your heart.

[D]

Is There is a life about to.

[A]

Start when the beating of your heart Echoes a beating of your tongues There is a night about to start when tomorrow comes do you hear the people sing? Singing the songs of angry men? It is the music of the people who will not be something again when the beating of your heart Angers the beating of your drum There is a thing about the storm and tomorrow comes.

[B]

Tomorrow comes Oh, thank God.

[A]

That took a second.

[B]

Saved us.

[D]

Okay. Is it weird we did a song for Stacy London? I think no one deserves a song more than Alex Lockamore.

[A]

They do now. I did already write a song for.

[D]

Oh, you did? At his birthday, of course.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

His birthday song.

[A]

But you want a second song.

[D]

Yeah. How do you want to do this process?

[A]

I could try to write a song about alex.

[D]

Okay. Pen in 32 seconds has written some lyrics to a song about his dear friend and the most talented musician in the world, Alice Lacamore. And he's going to perform it now.

[A]

Oh, wow. The beginning. Yep. He's almost got an egot. He's got an Emmy and a Grammy and a Tony, but he doesn't have an Oscar. In a world full of people who are generally grumpy, he's the most happy person that I have ever met. And he sees music as true colors. On the piano, he's used as true colors, and that's why he's my bro. So don't be afraid to see music as true colors. True colors. They're beautiful. I'm just gonna say like a rainbow. The rainbow connection. Guys, that was. That's an easy song to parody because Cyndi Lauper doesn't really rhyme in that song.

[B]

Like, twice.

[A]

Thank you for. Thank you.

[E]

Thank you for doing this.

[B]

Thank you.

[D]

And now we're going to hit stop on the cameras, but they are going to be playing the piano like this all weekend long, and I wish. Yeah. And I wish we could sell tickets for it, but I'm very excited. So thank you so much for coming and thank you to Iliana.

[A]

Laugh Lines is written and produced by Cam Holderness, Pen Holderness and Amory Tapke with the music by Pen Holderness. And this week, Alex Lacamore. It's filmed, edited and live produced by Samantha Allen, hosted by a cast. As always, we love to hear from you. Please write to us at podcast at Holderness family or leave a voice voicemail on our phone. [phone]. We'll talk to you soon on Laugh Line. Is it free Fun you get Hate this episode, but us?

[D]

This is going to be their favorite episode of all time.

[C]

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[B]

Here's a show that we reach Recommend.

[A]

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[B]

Creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.

[A]

Acast.com.