How To Menopause with Tamsen Fadal

Summary

Podcast Summary: Laugh Lines with Kim & Penn Holderness Episode Title: How To Menopause with Tamsen Fadal
Release Date: April 8, 2025

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Introduction

In this enlightening episode of Laugh Lines with Kim & Penn Holderness, the hosts delve deep into the topic of menopause with their esteemed guest, Tamsen Fadal. As aging becomes a central theme of the podcast, this episode aims to shed light on the challenges and unexpected positives that come with menopause, fostering a space for open and honest conversations.

Guest Profile: Tamsen Fadal

Tamsen Fadal is a distinguished Emmy Award-winning journalist with over three decades of experience in television. She is renowned for her work as an anchor for PIX11 News, hosting Broadway Profiles, and producing The M Factor, a PBS documentary focused on menopause. Additionally, Tamsen is the author of the New York Times Bestselling book, How To Menopause: A Guide to Navigating Midlife with Confidence. Her recent advocacy revolves around women's health, collaborating with organizations like Let's Talk Menopause and the Breast Cancer Research Foundation.

Navigating Menopause: Personal Journeys

Tamsen opens up about her personal experience with menopause, highlighting the confusion and lack of awareness she faced initially. She recounts a distressing incident on a news set where she experienced a severe hot flash and heart palpitations during a commercial break. This episode marked the beginning of her journey toward understanding menopause, which was not immediately recognized by her healthcare providers.

“I had what I now understand to be a hot flash... I said out loud in the studio... 'if I fall over, someone catch me.'”
— Tamsen Fadal [04:30]

Tamsen also shares the emotional toll of not having discussed menopause with her late mother, who faced her own struggles with breast cancer and menopausal symptoms without adequate support or information.

The Intersection of Menopause and Personal Life

The conversation moves to how menopause intertwined with other significant life events, such as Tamsen's divorce, illustrating how hormonal changes can impact personal relationships and emotional well-being.

“I had crazy periods. I had ups and downs all the time... I wouldn’t be surprised if it played a role [in my divorce].”
— Tamsen Fadal [10:15]

Advocacy and Normalizing the Conversation

A major theme of the episode is the importance of normalizing menopause conversations. Tamsen emphasizes the role of education and advocacy in empowering women to discuss their symptoms openly with healthcare providers and their personal support systems.

“We have the job of empowering women to go into the doctor's office with the information.”
— Tamsen Fadal [12:04]

She highlights the inadequacies in medical training regarding menopause, advocating for better education for doctors to ensure they are equipped to handle such discussions effectively.

“They got an hour of training, a week of training as an OB/GYN. That's unheard of.”
— Tamsen Fadal [37:48]

Advice for Women Entering Menopause

Tamsen offers actionable advice for women beginning their menopause journey:

1. Educate Yourself: Understand the symptoms and hormonal changes associated with menopause.
2. Advocate for Yourself in Medical Settings: Use provided scripts and symptom trackers to communicate effectively with healthcare providers.
3. Lifestyle Adjustments: Incorporate strength training, healthy eating, and proper sleep into daily routines.
4. Seek Support: Engage with communities and advocacy groups to share experiences and gain support.
5. Embrace the Positives: Recognize the newfound freedom and confidence that can come with this life stage.

“Don’t fear it... Pay attention to what we’re eating, watching the alcohol, the sugar... paying attention to our sleep.”
— Tamsen Fadal [36:05]

Involving Men in the Conversation

Understanding that menopause affects relationships, Tamsen extends her advice to men, encouraging them to become informed and supportive partners. She emphasizes the importance of empathy and understanding to foster healthier relationships during this transition.

“Guys can be really supportive once they understand what's going on.”
— Tamsen Fadal [27:32]

Overcoming Stigma and Misconceptions

The episode addresses common misconceptions about menopause, such as the trivialization of hot flashes and emotional changes. Tamsen advocates for breaking down these stereotypes to create a more supportive environment for women.

“It's not like the HAHA of hot flashes. And that's all I ever knew growing up.”
— Tamsen Fadal [27:32]

Scientific Insights and Future Outlook

Tamsen references scientific research, particularly Dr. Lisa Moscone's work, which suggests that cognitive functions affected by menopause may rebound post-transition, leading to increased satisfaction and happiness.

“There is a U curve... your brain comes back.”
— Tamsen Fadal [29:19]

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with Tamsen encouraging listeners to embrace menopause as a natural and empowering stage of life. She calls for continued advocacy, better medical education, and open dialogues to support women through their menopausal journey.

“It takes all of us to normalize this.”
— Tamsen Fadal [38:55]

Key Takeaways

1. Awareness is Crucial: Understanding menopause and its symptoms is the first step toward effective management.
2. Self-Advocacy Empowers: Women should be equipped with the knowledge and tools to communicate their needs to healthcare providers.
3. Support Systems Matter: Engaging with supportive communities and involving men in the conversation can significantly improve the menopausal experience.
4. Embrace the Change: Recognizing the positive aspects and potential personal growth during menopause can lead to a more fulfilling midlife.
5. Advocate for Better Education: There is a pressing need for enhanced medical training on menopause to ensure women receive informed and compassionate care.

Final Thoughts

Laugh Lines with Kim & Penn Holderness successfully transforms the narrative around menopause, blending humor with heartfelt discussions. By featuring experts like Tamsen Fadal, the podcast provides valuable insights and fosters a supportive community for listeners navigating the complexities of aging.

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Resources Mentioned:

• Tamsen Fadal's Book: How To Menopause: A Guide to Navigating Midlife with Confidence
• Organizations: Let’s Talk Menopause, Breast Cancer Research Foundation, Menopause Mandate
• Online Platform: tamsonfadal.com

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For more information and to listen to the full episode, visit Laugh Lines with Kim & Penn Holderness on Acast.

Transcript

[Kim Holderness]

Hey Penn, have you ever had this conversation? You meet someone, they say, hey, how you doing? And without thinking you just reply, I'm good. You?

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, of course. Right.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, I decided when I say I'm good, I want to meet it. That's why I'm using Headspace.

[Penn Holderness]

Great. So Headspace is the app that helps me and 100 million people with their mental health and well being with guided meditations, mindfulness practices, breathing and calming exercises, and so much more.

[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

Has these customized personalized approaches to help you navigate through all of life's moments, whether they're big or small.

[Kim Holderness]

If you're a total newbie or have been meditating for years, there's always content for what you're going through.

[Penn Holderness]

And if you're short on time, Headspace has these quick on the go programs that help you get in the right headspace in just a few minutes.

[Kim Holderness]

With more than 1000 hours of mindfulness exercises, it's got the most complete meditation library I've ever seen. I can feel my mental health getting a boost by taking a few minutes minutes every day, listening to the programming and reframing my relationship with stress and anxiety.

[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

That's Q U I n c e.com Holderness to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Holderness Hey Penn, have you ever had this conversation? You meet someone, they say, hey, how you doing? And without thinking, you just reply, I'm good. You?

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, of course. Right.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, I decided when I say I'm good, I want to meet it. That's why I'm using Headspace.

[Penn Holderness]

Great. So Headspace is the app that helps me and 100 million people with their mental health and well being with guided meditations, mindfulness practices, breathing and calming exercises, and so much more.

[Kim Holderness]

It reduces stress, boosts your mood, and helps you sleep better. By combining scientifically proven benefits of meditation and mindfulness with modern practices, the app.

[Penn Holderness]

Has these customized personalized approaches to help you navigate through all of life's moments, whether they're big or small.

[Kim Holderness]

If you're a total newbie or have been meditating for years. Years. There's always content for what you're going through.

[Penn Holderness]

And if you're short on time, Headspace has these quick on the go programs that help you get in the right headspace in just a few minutes.

[Kim Holderness]

With more than 1000 hours of mindfulness exercises, it's got the most complete meditation library I've ever seen. I can feel my mental health getting a boost by taking a few minutes every day, listening to the programming, and reframing my relationship with stress and anxiety.

[Penn Holderness]

So feel good and mean it when you say it. For a limited time, get Headspace for free for 60 days. Just go to headspace.comHolderness yes. H-E-A-S-P-A C E.comHolderness to unlock all of Headspace. Free for 60 days.

[Kim Holderness]

Headspace.comHolderness Hormones can impact your eyebrows. So I thought my eyebrows were thinning because I just over plucked them in the 90s.

[Tamsen Fadal]

You and me. Me both.

[Penn Holderness]

This other crap.

[Tamsen Fadal]

I may have a baby.

[Kim Holderness]

It's like all of a sudden I'm sweating.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Really?

[Penn Holderness]

Me too.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Ken's having a hot.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. Hi everyone. This is. Oh my God.

[Penn Holderness]

Whoa. This is good. This is apropos.

[Kim Holderness]

I. I did. I just messed up my name.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, but that was like a big. This is like part of the story that's being told by our guest today.

[Kim Holderness]

I have such enough brain fog that I forgot my name. My name is Kim Holderness, and I'm Penn Holderness.

[Penn Holderness]

And on this week's Holderness Family Podcast, we're going to hear an amazing story from Tamsen Fadal, which started with her not being able to pronounce things. Okay, so that's okay.

[Kim Holderness]

That's okay. So here on this podcast and in life, you know, we want to celebrate the good things. Right. That come with growing older 100%. I mean, brain fog and forgetting my own name, not amazing. That's not an amazing part of aging. But I have to say, my filter is gone. And we, we learned this a couple years ago through this podcast that it is a documented hormonal shift in my brain. But that is what, that's why your filter just disappears.

[Penn Holderness]

And you're saying that's a, that's been a good thing for you.

[Kim Holderness]

I think it's so freeing just to say the thing. I mean, don't be rude or unkind, but just say the thing. You know, don't waste time of just like dancing around something. I have, I have loved that part of like the new Kim.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. And I've been enjoying, really, as a big part of this podcast, you and I have been embracing some of the wonderful upsides of aging.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

I just turned 50. Kim has a whole podcast about how 49 is becoming a wonderful celebratory year for her. So on that same note, we have a just a phenomenal guest with a great message today.

[Kim Holderness]

There are so many awesome things that happen when you get older. But can menopause be awesome? Our guest today says sort of there are things to look forward to.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

And we've. So this is Tamsen Fadal. You may recognize that name. She's been on network news. She's been on a lot of daytime programming. She is kind of a force of nature. Was. She was in our line of work for quite some time, which is a news anchor, news reporter, and so we have a lot in common with her. She is an Emmy award winning journalist. She's an author and most recently an advocate for women's health.

[Kim Holderness]

She has more than 30 years in television. She anchored the PIX11 news and hosted Broadway profiles. She's the producer of the M Factor, a PBS documentary on menopause, and author of the brand new book, which is available now called how to Menopause, A Guide to Navigating Midlife with Confidence.

[Penn Holderness]

Tamsen also collaborates with organizations like let's Talk Menopause, the Breast Cancer Research foundation, and Menopause Mandate, which promotes women's health initiatives.

[Kim Holderness]

Welcome to the show, Tamsen.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Thank you. Hi there.

[Kim Holderness]

Hi. I'm so excited to see you.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Oh, I'm excited to see you.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. So I read your book. Penn has started it. He wanted to read it, too. Isn't that great?

[Penn Holderness]

It's important. We need some dudes learning about Perry and menopause.

[Kim Holderness]

Perry and menopause. It's.

[Penn Holderness]

Why do you call it parentheses? Perry, close parentheses. Menopause.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Oh, gosh. You did read it. I love it.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Thank you.

[Kim Holderness]

Definitely. The girlfriend's guide to Menopause. Definitely. And I am so thankful that there's so much more attention being put on the topic of menopause, because my mother didn't have it. And it makes me cry thinking about what she went through. But what made you want to join in the conversation about this?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah, you know, I had an incident when we. We all, you know, came from news way back in the day. I. I was in it more recently, and I was on the news set one night, and it was a commercial break, and I had what I now understand to be a hot flash. And heart palpitations happen during the break. I said out loud in the studio because it was, like, at night, not very many people, all men. And I said, if I fall over, someone catch me. Kind of half joking, half like, oh, shoot, I don't know what's going on. So my. One of my co blinkers walked me off the set to the ladies room, and I went right down to the floor and, like, laid on the floor. They were putting. He actually reminded me of this. They were putting, like, cold presses in the back of my neck. Like, I didn't know what was going on. I left. I started going to the doctor, like, about a week later. I got put on antidepressants, and then I went to another doctor who said, like, maybe it's stress. And then I finally ended up my OB GYN and I got a note in my patient portal about a month later because all these doctor's appointments, one after another. And it said, in menopause, any questions? That was it inside my patient port. That was it. Four words. And I was like, what?

[Kim Holderness]

I got a lot of questions, sir.

[Tamsen Fadal]

A lot of questions. And I haven't stopped asking them. That was 2019. But I like you, I never talked to my mother about it. My mother died at 51 years old. I was 20. She had breast cancer. It was never a conversation we had. And I'd Never even thought. I'd never thought about it, honestly.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. You get really honest with it in this book. I think the difference between your book and some of the. The others that are written, what I love is like, it's coming from a girlfriend. And so you're like, you know, like you're a passenger on the flight, right. So you get real honest. And around the time you're going through this, you know, the start of this, your previous marriage, you're happily married now, dreamboat guy, your previous marriage was falling apart. What role, like, in hindsight, do you think that all these fluctuations played in that?

[Tamsen Fadal]

You know, it's interesting. I, I had no idea what perimenopause was, which is that time leading up to which is exactly when I was going through my divorce. I don't know. You know, I had crazy periods. I had ups and downs all the time. I had the irritability constantly. And I wouldn't be surprised if it played a role. I mean, I don't, I don't think there's a question of it. I think that I was definitely in that muck of it. All right. And so I did write an area in the book saying, is it my husband or is my hormones. That's not to say that I, you know, I'd married the wrong guy for sure. But I wouldn't, you know, for sure. But I wouldn't be surprised if that played a lot of all of this. And I, and maybe it gave me some kind of boldness, but I know at the time I felt very, very dark and very, very lost.

[Penn Holderness]

The honesty is. It's on every page, right? It's the, it's the reason why this book is going to be such a big hit. And it started with a lot of honesty with you on. Right. You, you went on to Tick Tock and you just told the truth about this. And that was how this, I believe this movement started. I want to read a passage here because it made me chuckle a little bit. It. Well, parts of it, it's genius. But there's this one part that made me laugh. You said in 2020, I went on TikTok because they were not. There were not too many people I knew on that platform at the time. I was in my bathrobe with no makeup on. And I just talk. I simply listed 34 symptoms of menopause. I didn't dance or play music or anything like that. And I'm like, is she talking about me? Because I always sing everything that I, that I try to say. And then I realized, no, that's what the talent. Yeah, no, that's, that's what everybody else does on TikTok. No, but, but you, you took this moment where you were very raw and honest about it, and then the reactions and the comments that you put in this book. It was very moving to me to see how, like, this is how women are being reached. It's not happening in the doctor's offices as much as you'd like.

[Tamsen Fadal]

No, it's not. Thank you for saying that. And no, it wasn't about you. And if I could dance and sing, I would totally have done that. Of all 34 symptoms, I would, I would.

[Kim Holderness]

A reenactment. Yes.

[Tamsen Fadal]

And I'm happy, and I'm happy to be like in the background going like, doop, doop. If you ever need that in a video. That's not my extent of my talents. You know, I, I did do that, and I do think that's the way women are being reached. And I don't think we would be here today having this conversation had it not been for these massive voices that are out there talking and women feeling safe to talk back. And I think that that's what we've been miss. You know, we have some incredible doctors that are, that are part of all of this movement, but, you know, to, to their own admission, they've been in a doctor's office talking one on one with patients. And even if you see 40 patients a day, it's impossible to get this message out there. So we have the job of empowering women to go into the doctor's office with the information. And I think that that's the difference of the, you know, of the way the streets are going now. I think you have to go into the office and say, like, here's where I am, here's what I think is going on. You know, can we go down the next part of this conversation? Otherwise we're just sitting there, you know, hoping that it goes away or think there's something wrong with just us.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, I'm going to skip ahead here. Since you brought up the doctor's office, you, you give some very actionable items and some questions, and you kind of give bullet points to be able to advocate to yourself. I feel like I'm a very strong, confident person. I will say the first time I was like 45, I brought up, you know, my anxiety. I have anxiety, but it seems I'm like white knuckling it right now. I just feel, I'm just feeling so off. And the response was, bless, her heart, she's like, that, yeah, that's normal. And I just. I should have. I know better. Like, I knew better at that time, but I was like, oh, you're right. And I just kind of took it and I was, like, scared. Like, oh, I'm sorry to bother you. I'm sorry to bother you. I'm, like, really irritable and crazy. But tell us a bit about what you've learned in terms of advocating in the doctor's office, because it can be very intimidating.

[Tamsen Fadal]

It is intimidating. I did myself for myself, and I hear myself every once in a while. If I'm in there, I'm like, I'm.

[Kim Holderness]

Sorry to bother you, but I'm so sorry for you to ask you to do your job.

[Tamsen Fadal]

I'm so sorry I'm bothering you with symptoms. But, you know, the truth of the matter is, is that if we don't give women that kind of power and that kind of information and do it, we're all going to keep doing the same thing. It's hard. It's hard to go into a doctor that you've had for 20 and be like, I don't. Will you talk about this with me? I think I know a lot about it. It's very difficult. And so I wanted women to go in there with that kind of script. Listen, I wrote this book in the middle of a lot of brain fog and a lot of, like, trying to figure things out myself. And I said, it's brain fog proof. That's what I wanted to make the book. And I wrote that on my computer. So I constantly remembered, like, make this brain fog proof. Make this easy and distilled for women. So I have a script in there to go in if you feel like you don't know what to say to the doctor or you're getting pushback from the doctor of not being will to talk about hormones versus non hormones. I want this to be for every woman who's either had that situation in the doctor's office or, you know, is scared to go to a doctor and try to start the conversation.

[Penn Holderness]

I want to go back to the story in the newsroom when you're anchoring, because that really struck me for a couple of reasons. First of all, it was six years ago. You were in your upper 40s. You were relatively young at the time, and the symptoms that you were.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Thank you.

[Penn Holderness]

Still look.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. Keeping it toy.

[Penn Holderness]

And you're still keeping it.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Thank you again.

[Penn Holderness]

But you. You were describing symptoms that sounded less like perimenopause and more like Menopause. Right. And I think that a lot of women who are told they're going through menopause at a younger age, like, that there's probably a real sense of like, oh, is there something actually wrong with me? But research showing that that's common, that happens sometimes.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah, it does. And I, I had, had. I didn't have that hallmark 12 months of what I didn't think was a period. I have endometrium polyps. I had three different surgeries, two before that, but leading up to it. So I constantly always seemed to have something going on in terms of what seemed like a period, but wasn't. And so, yeah, I had all of these symptoms and I had no idea what it was. And I kept pushing it to stress because of the divorce I had years earlier. And I thought, wow, I just, like, I can't get it. I can't get myself together, man. I just can't. And so when, when that happened, that was a real wake up call for me of like, what I had kind of ignored and pushed aside all along. And then it was sort of this, like, did I not take care of myself? Right? Did I not. What did I do to cause this?

[Kim Holderness]

It's my fault in my.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah, it's my fault. Yeah. And I really did think that. And I. And I then I went back and thought about all the times, like, I was embarrassed because my body odor was terrible. I was in these. I was reading a teleprompter where the worlds are scrolling by at night and look at a word and I couldn't think of it. And I, I totally skipped the word. Like, I didn't try to pronounce it. I just froze and skipped it. And so all those things play a role with, like, our confidence and our physical appearance and just how we, I think, how we feel about ourselves in general. And Yeah, I was 48 when that happened. I was 49 when I got that in my patient portal a few months later. And then I realized that the average age was 51. So I really don't know when my mom went through it. I'm assuming she went through a medical menopause because of breast cancer. And so we never had that conversation. But I did remember her hot and like abnormally sweating all the time. But we never talked about it. We didn't. I didn't even. I don't know if she even knew, to be honest with you. I don't know if she even knew.

[Kim Holderness]

My mom was. And going. She was on estrogen. And then a doctor went on the Today show and said, stop taking hormones. They can cause breast cancer. It was like Dr. Nancy Snyderman and like she, and she. That's what she thought at the time. No shade to her. But my mother believed like what Dr. Nancy was saying. And so she stopped cold turkey. And since then it. I don't want to give away private medical information, but to not have that was cruel. And yeah. I just, it makes me so sad my mother didn't have access to this. Okay. There's a lot that makes me so.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Sad because I think about all those women during that time and they, they said that they were going into. And this, they were going in. They were like prying the estrogen and the like the HRT out of women's hands. Like, you can't do that anymore. And that was it. Like, can you imagine clipping along, feeling like I'm great. Okay.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Tamsen Fadal]

And that was, that's it. That makes me so sad too. I'm so sorry, like for my. And by the way, she wasn't alone.

[Kim Holderness]

She wasn't alone.

[Tamsen Fadal]

36% of the, you know.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Of the women that were on it. That the numbers just plummeted.

[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

That's Holderness to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply. See terms for details. Okay, we've been talking about the not so bright sides of Menopause. But what I love about there's. There's parts of your book where you talk about the gifts of menopause. Like, okay, really, Tamsin, there are gifts with menopause? Talk to me, girl.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Anyway, my publisher was like, are you sure you want to say that? And I go, I am sure to say that I think there's some real gifts now. She was like, okay, are you sure? And I said, I'm positive. Because it's been like three years since I first talked about the book. So I added the gifts in there. You know, it was like the fears, because we know the scary part. And I don't want women that are in perimenopause right now to be scared to death about the next, you know, 50 years of their lives. I do think there are some real gifts. Look, I think you're not getting periods anymore. If you had hard periods, and I really did. That was brutal for me. It really was for a very long time. It took. It wiped me out for a week every month. I think that, you know, if you don't want to get pregnant, then that is. That's off the table at this point. Right. When it's menopause, that's done. And I really do think that there is a freedom that comes with a lot of our thought process. Like, I do think it leaves a doctor's office. I do think it's a 360 to a woman. I do think that women have this, like, no more Fs to give. In a lot of ways, you hear women unfiltered. I don't know about you, but I don't think about what I thought about when I was a 25 year old in the newsroom or at a workplace. I don't think about it when I went back out on the dating scene. You know, I wasn't thinking like I did years past before. So there's been a lot of grace. I give myself now to pause a little bit and be who I am, which is. Is. Is freeing.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Really freeing.

[Kim Holderness]

You talked about the silver linings. And, and as this is a second act, I mean, this is a huge career shift for you that started when you were 52, right?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it was. It was scary.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. And so. And you. You do give advice on the dating scene too. So, like, that. That. That part's really good too.

[Penn Holderness]

Hang on, we're just gonna gloss over that. I'd love to know the advice in the dating scene.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. Just. Just in case Penn needs to know.

[Tamsen Fadal]

What do you need to know for.

[Penn Holderness]

I think our. I think our listeners would be interested in that.

[Tamsen Fadal]

I am here to speak to all men. I think, you know, I. I love that. First of all, I want to say this to you, Penn. You're the first guy I ever heard, like, respond to and talk about perimenopause and menopause. And when I met you the first time, I was like, I was. I was so happy about that. I think, you know, I think you're like, I'm serious. I remember it. And I was like, oh, my gosh, this is so great. Because I knew you were going to approach it in a way that felt safe and, like, I don't know, cool and good and okay to talk about. So I. I hope you know that. I mean, I. I think we talked about it when we first met, but I met both of you, like, over a year and a half ago, and I. I think it's cool.

[Penn Holderness]

Well, thank you. And so this was at south by Southwest, and there was this. There was this kind of mental health track that we were part of. We. We were speaking about our book about adhd, but we went to a sy. Menopause in this, like, cool, like, bar that was also a house. And there were all these incredible women, and they were. They were loud. They were angry at. At the. At governments. They were angry at the lack of research. The lack of research at the way that it's being handled in the. In the waiting. Not in the waiting room, in the examining room. But none of them, Not a single one of them was unhappy to see me. They were happy to see people. So, like.

[Kim Holderness]

So dating advice.

[Penn Holderness]

Sorry. Dating advice.

[Kim Holderness]

Go to a menopause conference.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Tamsen Fadal]

But anyway, I needed to give you. I needed to say that to you because I. I was. I thought back on it again. I was like, that was really cool. Like, that was. That was early on in the conversation. I think dating advice is really important to put into this book for a couple of reasons. I was dating in perimenopause. Didn't know it. Got married in menopause. I'm like, I was a menopausal bride, man. I didn't even know what was going on then. But we. A lot of us are going back out into the dating world during this time or, you know, didn't. Haven't found somebody and are still out there doing it. And I think that we. Our bodies change. Things are happening. We're breaking out into a sweat all of a sudden. And I think it's really important to be able to feel comfortable with what's going on with our body and be able to feel comfortable at having that conversation. And I think that if I had advice for women, I would be really upfront and honest. I mean, when I was, you know, starting to date Ira, I was trying to figure out exactly what was going on and had no idea I'd run to the bathroom if I had a, you know, my period was out of control, I'd be sweating. I didn't know what was happening with me. But I. I do think with dating, I think it's an exciting time, and I think it's a scary time if you're going through perimenopause at the same time. And so the mood swings, the libido changes, the period stuff. So I was like, to hell with being embarrassed with all this and, and talk to him through all of it. I mean, he was there when I had my note in the patient portal that I was actually in menopause. I didn't know that all those other symptoms I'd gone through were actually perimenopause during the time we were a few years up to when we were dating.

[Kim Holderness]

And if a man loves you and starts dating you during the menopausal transition, I mean, true love right there.

[Tamsen Fadal]

True love. True love. I. I think there's no question about that.

[Penn Holderness]

All right, so speaking of the dudes, how can we help normal. How can we help normalize the menopause conversation? You were a huge advocate of that. And it's important that guys get on board.

[Tamsen Fadal]

I think it's so important. And I'm excited that more men. I meet men now that are like, I think my wife might be going through something, but I don't want to insult her by bringing it up, but I get that, like, you don't want, you know, I'm sure a guy feels like they don't want to go, hey, maybe I heard something about maybe hormones. You know, I think it's just a. It's an approach method, you know, and I think that guys want to help. If you have somebody that's supportive in your life, whether you're married or a partner or co worker, I think you have to be one aware of those symptoms to be able to be, you know, sympathetic to them and understanding of what they're going through. And three, understand that it's not like the HAHA of hot flashes. And I think that's kind of what. That's all I ever knew growing up. I knew a bunch of sitcoms. I knew they made fun of hot flashes and women were a little hysterical and crazy. And that was probably all I knew about menopause. And I'm sure that's what a lot of men know. So I think being able to have the conversation with your partner or male co worker or son or whoever it is, understanding what the symptoms are, you know, what the solutions are, I think that's low hanging fruit. And if we're talking about a conversation in the bedroom, not having it in the bedroom, but understanding low libido and painful sex and all the things that do really do happen during, during this time, and understanding there's also solutions for them. I found guys to be really supportive. Like, I know we give them a hard time sometimes, but I, I think I found a lot of guys really supportive once they understand.

[Kim Holderness]

Penn has been a good advocate in, in those, in with other men, because other men, we do some perimenopause content. And, and there's like one time he's like, you should do a video about how hard it is for us. And he's like, stop. Like, let's reframe. And then had a conversation with five guys about, this is real. It's. It's not made up. And so he, I, I really appreciate him getting those conversations. Okay. The menopause brain. I have everything written down here because I have total brain fog and I can't remember.

[Tamsen Fadal]

No, I do too. Trust me.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. So I don't remember anything. But you say there actually is kind of a U curve. Like there's potential for my brain to come back to me. You're saying.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah, yeah. Dr. Lisa Moscone, when, when we did the documentary, we know we had the documentary first, and I was doing that research at the same time I was doing the book. And Dr. Lisa Moscone has that kind of, you know, curve where you're here, then you go down here when you're in the, in that perimenopause, menopause, and most of the time level back out and your brain comes back. And a lot of women are found to be even happier and more satisfied on this other side. So, you know, those, those are the kind of gifts that we're talking about. But there's real science behind it. And I was encouraged by that because I was very scared for a long time that I was going to sit in that bottom area and not be able to retain. And so, like you, I was. Whenever I would do an interview or something, all during pandemic, I'd have notes right up close to the camera. So I Could read because I was very scared. I had a very big lack of confidence at that point that I could remember anything or get through a, you know, a complete sentence or interview.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, I'm. I'm looking forward to it rebounding because.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Right now it's happening. It's gonna happen. I promise.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. I knew the alcohol tr. The only time I get hot flashes right now is after I've had a glass of wine. So if I have a glass of wine in the middle of the night, I'll have a hot flash. But I didn't realize and so I basically stopped drinking.

[Penn Holderness]

To be clear, if you have a glass of wine during the day, not.

[Kim Holderness]

In the middle of the night.

[Penn Holderness]

Yes, you have. You're not waking up in the middle of the night to get a glass of wine.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh, correct.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Oh, yeah, I got it. Thank you.

[Kim Holderness]

Correct. Yeah. So if I have wine.

[Tamsen Fadal]

If you want to. No judgment.

[Kim Holderness]

No judgment.

[Penn Holderness]

None at all.

[Kim Holderness]

We are not judging people. So I've basically stopped drinking because I just can't handle it. I know, but I didn't realize. But then I've had in the last week some like mid midnight hot flashes. And I'm thinking, oh, wait, okay, this is it. But I read that sugar and spicy food could contribute too, and I'd had like a big piece of cake and I, I'm like, oh, was it the sugar? I had no idea that sugar and spicy food could impact that.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah, I had only heard alcohol and caffeine originally, and then when we went back in there and just dug into, you know, to more of the research and look, there's so much more research that needs to be done. But those are two other things. Like, and it makes sense, I guess, like, it makes sense about everything that's going on. But even from the time I wrote that book to where I am today, my alcohol has still gone down again. It's nearly impossible and not enjoyable. And I just love some champagne. Like, that's. I'm not. Yeah, I'm not going crazy every day, but yeah, it's. It's difficult. And sugar is another culprit for me anyway.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. Hormones can impact your eyebrows. So I thought my eyebrows were thinning because I just over plucked them in the 90s.

[Tamsen Fadal]

But the hormones, you and me both. No, it affects everything. Hair, teeth. It affects all of it. People have itchy ears. So, you know, I. It's funny, we were, I think for a long time we separated body parts. Right. Of like this down here is the area where, you know, the hormones are happening. That's not it. It affects everything. There was, there was one part, Andrea Adonsky in the book, who's a nutritionist out of Canada. I spoke with her and we actually had to come back from our in and do a revision in the book because we had done the 34 symptoms of menopause. And she has studied and researched and tracked over a hundred. And so those are, they're listed in the back of the book. But that was unbelievable to me and I said it was unbelievable. And now I realize that it totally makes sense because it impacts all parts of our body.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. And I learned a lot in this book, by the way. And there's a lot more in this book that you will be like, oh my gosh, I never do. But these are just like some highlights. The last thing I'll just mention here, there's a lot more. I thought I knew a lot, obviously about menopause, but menopause is really only one day.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah. After your cycle is done. 12 months, your cycles, your cycle's over. So whenever that happened, whenever you should be getting your cycle next, you're on that whatever 13th month that is officially your menopause. You know, that's men celebration, holiday. That's menopause. So.

[Kim Holderness]

And then you're post menopause.

[Tamsen Fadal]

And postmenopause is everything after. But I, I, for the sake of ease, I put menopause. Everything was menopause. So then you're a menopausal woman. That means you're not getting your period anymore. You're not getting your cycle. Can't get, you know, there's no pregnancy scares. So that's everything else. But Perry's hard.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. Okay, so look at Pen's face right now.

[Penn Holderness]

So there's like 10 or so years of perimenopause.

[Kim Holderness]

It could be.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yes. 4 to 10.

[Kim Holderness]

4 to 10 ish.

[Penn Holderness]

One day of menopause.

[Kim Holderness]

It's like a big lead up for menopause.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah, it's a big lead. And then.

[Penn Holderness]

And then postmenopause forever. Okay.

[Tamsen Fadal]

We say menopause. Yeah. So you're menopausal the rest of your life.

[Penn Holderness]

What does something like. Do you know when that day is or. Yeah. I mean, you just kind of.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Maybe somebody smarter than me. But no, it pieces together, you know, you kind of know when you're going to get your period. So if you've gone 12 months without your period. Right. That means you have now in menopause. And if you've gone eight months and then you start having a period again, your clock Starts over again of. Of that.

[Penn Holderness]

All right, so while we're talking about reframing and rebranding this thing, and you're doing a great job of it, by the way.

[Kim Holderness]

Thank you.

[Penn Holderness]

And we're trying to do the same thing with. With adhd. It's gotten to the point where, like, ADHD isn't even the right term. It's actually. It's either ADD or it's not, and it's. And. But we just kind of clumped it all together. It's.

[Tamsen Fadal]

You rebranded it in a real big way.

[Penn Holderness]

So. So are we leaning toward just calling all of this menopause, or is it important that we clarify the Perry and the post?

[Tamsen Fadal]

It's really. It's really interesting. I. I don't know. I mean, I think that Perry makes people. Because it's not that popular of a word or has not been. Right. I never. I'd never heard about it. I'd never done a news story about it. I never. I just. Do you remember it ever?

[Kim Holderness]

No.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Until the last four years. Three.

[Penn Holderness]

Not at all.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Me neither. Me neither. I heard menopause, obviously, but I. But even that, I didn't have a good definition of. I would be interested in that. But I think it's going to stay separate because those are the years leading up that you can still get pregnant. So there are still hallmark differences.

[Penn Holderness]

On top of all this other crap, I may have a baby.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Right. So I think that we should keep those separate just to be safe for anybody out there. But that's. I'm a journalist, not a doctor, but that's my expert opinion.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh, my. Could you imagine? Could you, Pen? Could you imagine?

[Tamsen Fadal]

I've heard it.

[Kim Holderness]

I know. So I've heard it, too. And it's like. It's like I read. It's like a horror story. A woman is 48, and she thought she was going through menopause, but really, like, she was eight months pregnant.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yes.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh, my gosh, you guys, that.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Okay, now, am I making you have a hot flash?

[Kim Holderness]

Like, all of a sudden? I'm sweating.

[Penn Holderness]

Really? Me too.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Hens having a hot flash.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, so the book is great. It is out now. And for women that are just beginning their menopause journey, what advice do you give them so they can approach it with the confidence and self compassion that you have learned?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah. Thank you. I. You know what I think? I think what's so important, first of all, is not to fear it. And I worry about that. You know, I know a lot of women are coming into it going, oh, My gosh, I'm going to have all that to deal with. I think because there's such an education right now, because women are asking questions and learning earlier, it's going to be that much easier because there's not going to be the confusion. And secondly, I think that any of these lifestyle changes were talking about strength training, paying attention to what we're eating, watching the alcohol, the sugar, all those, all those items that are triggers for a lot of these things, paying attention to our sleep, which I never, I mean, I know both of you probably didn't either. For a long time I bragged about the fact that I could exist on no sleep. They're going to be way ahead of where we are right now. So that's my hope, is that these younger women that are coming up are going to have all that tackled. So now they get into this and hopefully there's a marker at some point that says in your late 30s, early 40s. And I keep pushing for this every time I talk to a group of doctors or investors or whoever it is that we need to start having that question. That has to be a question in the doctor's office. You're 38, you're early 40s. Do you have any of these symptoms? If so, check them off, come into your doctor's office and then you can have that plan ahead. Whether you're hormonal, you want to deal with hormonal or non hormonal options, either one of those. But now you got the lifestyle changes up till then, and then you're only dealing with having some of those solutions handled. And I think that we're going to be much further along and I hope that the education helps women. I hope the fact that we're pushing for more dollars and advocacy in that area helps young women. And I hope that we're getting these doctors educated in medical schools. So they're coming out of medical school and able to comfortably talk about this. And it's not the onus on women to walk in there with all the.

[Kim Holderness]

Information because doctors want to help. Help doctors want.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Of course they do. They didn't get into this to hurt people. They weren't educated. I mean, we, we went all across the country talking to doctors in the documentary Top Schools. They were saying, I got an hour of training, I got a week of training as an OB gyn. That's unheard of. And so for any, anything else to exist and have that little education and understanding of it is a sin. And I think we've, we realized it now. And hopefully we're course correcting it.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, tell everybody where they can find you.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yes, anywhere on social media at tamson, fidel howto menopause.com wherever you get your books. And you know, we're pushing out as many resources as we can. We actually have a man guide too, you know, giving men the symptoms to look for. Yeah, it's not deep, but I just wanted to like give guys something if they came and, and just be aware of what's going on. There's a symptom tracker, so if you are, are making your first appointment, you can go there, print it out, check it off and go into a doctor's office. So you save a little bit of time at least since you don't get very much time in the doctor's office anyway.

[Kim Holderness]

I love this, I love what you're doing. Thank you so much. Thank you.

[Tamsen Fadal]

But thank you for what you're doing really, because it's, it takes all of us to normalize this.

[Penn Holderness]

Well, the book's great.

[Kim Holderness]

We are going to link everything in, show notes and then the blog that goes along with it and on Instagram stories and Instagram and all that good stuff. So thank you for being here.

[Tamsen Fadal]

You guys are so fun. Thank you so much.

[Penn Holderness]

Tamson, you are a absolute breath of fresh air every time we talk to you. And thank you for putting such a, like a positive spin and such a, you know, just a lovely personality and face behind menopause.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you for your time.

[Kim Holderness]

Love talking with our friend Tamsen. Her book is, it's really great. I, I learned a lot and I thought I knew a lot about menopause. It is our tradition here at the Holderness Family Podcast to end the podcast with a top five list. And that is always a creation of my husband. So I'm very curious what you've come up with this time.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, so thanks for that intro and question because I, I, you know, I, I want to be in a safe space here.

[Kim Holderness]

It's a safe space.

[Penn Holderness]

We're talking about menopause. So I, I, I didn't really want to talk about behavior or any of that stuff. You're super aware and have been and I want to just give you some credit before we start this, this started in your 20s, not now, but you've always been super aware when, when things are off kilter and you'll say it out loud and, and that's one of the things that I love the most about you, is your self awareness. And I know this menopause has Been tough on you. There's been times that you've felt ways and you. Not, not just physically, but also emotionally, and you've. You felt like you weren't even in your own body and you found ways to verbalize that. And you know, that makes it really easy to be married to you. And. And I'm just proud of you for that. And I think it's important. Right.

[Kim Holderness]

I thank you and I. Why do I feel like you're saying nice things about me? Because you're about to say mean things.

[Penn Holderness]

Well, just because our list is the top, we seem to be buying more now because of menopause.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, okay, got it. Okay.

[Penn Holderness]

But I said we, we. And I'm on board with all this. And I'm looking at the list and I'm partaking all five of these things.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Penn Holderness]

These are things for both of us.

[Kim Holderness]

Love it.

[Penn Holderness]

Top five things that we're both, we're both buying a lot more. I mean, you're probably buying more of it, but I'm definitely taking advantage of these. Okay. Number five pillows.

[Kim Holderness]

Love a pillow. I just. And I need like, there's Iva Kai's. Everybody has a system, right? I have the one from under my head, the one that I have that I'll roll over and I have to go between my boobs and my legs because like my boot, it has to be long enough to go between my boobs, my knees and my hips. Don't think. And I have like a light one that'll end up like putting over my head. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

And that, that appears to have happened last few years because sleep is. Sleep's more important. Make sure you sleep. Number four, protein.

[Kim Holderness]

A lot of protein. A lot of protein. Got to eat a lot of protein. That's what the. That's what the doctors are telling me.

[Penn Holderness]

What was it you said that one time that like Gwyneth Paltrow quoted you?

[Kim Holderness]

It was my part time job to eat protein. Yeah. That's what I'm doing. If you ask me what I'm doing. What's my new hobby? It's eating protein.

[Penn Holderness]

Yep. I've noticed this as well. Tell me if I'm wrong. Last few years since this has been part of your life. Number three, funny TV shows and movies.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. It's all I want to see besides severance. And if you guys want to talk about the season finale of season two of severe reverence, that was not funny and I really have issues with it. But other than that, yes, I do need comedy more. I'm in Search of more comedy in my life.

[Penn Holderness]

I want to say I love pillows, I love protein, and I love funny movies. So this is, this is syncing up really well with me and boy, oh boy, the next one is also syncing up with me. Number two, take out dinners.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, guys, I still, I love to cook and we do do have, you know, those, those easy prep meal plans that, that we put together. I also think, can I say this is not, this is less to do with menopause unless and more to do with the stage of the life we're in.

[Penn Holderness]

Like, because this one is.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

Or all of these.

[Kim Holderness]

No, that, the meal thing.

[Penn Holderness]

I was, I guess I was just thinking. Yeah, you're probably right. I. I know that it can be a lot like an entire week of work and doing like and also going through what you're going through. So maybe that's was. Maybe number two is a bad one.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, well, no, it's not a bad one, honey. It is true that this stage of life, but it is like more, it is more to do with our kids needing to get to practices and things like that.

[Penn Holderness]

True that.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay. Number one is pills.

[Kim Holderness]

So many supplements you can use.

[Penn Holderness]

And I've got some too now because I think like you're, you're getting pills for you. I'm taking something now called the lion's mane.

[Kim Holderness]

Lion's mane. And some turmeric which is anti inflammatory some. And probiotics for gut health. Yeah, I have the amount of supplements I take because by the way, I will believe anything that they put on like a bottle. You're like, this will give me glowing skin in three days. Yes.

[Penn Holderness]

Kim has enough pills that she had. She bought a case for her pills.

[Kim Holderness]

I bought a case for my pills.

[Penn Holderness]

And that the pills don't all fit in your case. Is that correct?

[Kim Holderness]

There are so many need that they don't fit you guys. I need a garbage bag to carry them. Anyway, thank you very much for listening. We love you for being here and. Yeah, love you.

[Penn Holderness]

Bye. See you next week.

[Kim Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Tamsen Fadal]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Tamsen Fadal]

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[Kim Holderness]

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