How To Talk Back To Anxiety with Ethan Kross

Summary

Episode Summary: How To Talk Back To Anxiety with Ethan Kross

In this enlightening episode of Laugh Lines with Kim & Penn Holderness, hosts Kim and Penn Holderness welcome renowned psychologist and neuroscientist Ethan Kross to discuss effective strategies for managing anxiety. The conversation delves deep into the science of emotional regulation, offering listeners practical tools to better navigate their emotional landscapes.

---

Introduction to the Guest

[07:58] Kim Holderness introduces Ethan Kross, highlighting his credentials as a professor at the University of Michigan and the director of the Emotion and Self-Control Lab. She mentions his acclaimed books, including The Voice in Our Head and his latest, Shift: Managing Your Emotions So They Don't Manage You.

Kim Holderness: "Ethan Kross is a leading expert on the science of self-talk and emotional regulation."

Understanding Emotional Management

Ethan begins by defining what it means to manage emotions effectively. He breaks it down into three key components:

1. Volume Control: Adjusting the intensity of emotions—either amplifying or diminishing them.
2. Duration Management: Controlling how long one remains in a particular emotional state.
3. State Shifting: Transitioning from one emotional state to another, such as moving from anxiety to joy.

[17:13] Ethan Kross: "Managing your emotions means being able to turn the volume on your emotions up or down, lengthen or shorten how long you sit in an emotional state, and in some cases, shift entirely from one experience to another."

The Dual Nature of Self-Talk

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the concept of self-talk, which Ethan categorizes as both an asset and a liability. While it can be a powerful tool for motivation and self-understanding, it can also lead to detrimental patterns like rumination and self-critique.

[24:09] Ethan Kross: "Self-talk is both an asset and a liability. It's a good tool, but it can also get us into trouble when we ruminate and worry excessively."

Practical Tools for Managing Anxiety

Ethan introduces several science-based strategies to harness self-talk positively:

1. Distanced Self-Talk (Dopey): Using one’s name or a nickname to create a psychological distance from the emotion, allowing for more objective problem-solving.

   [25:31] Ethan Kross: "Using your name or a nickname to refer to yourself shifts your perspective and puts you in advice-giving mode, making it easier to offer constructive solutions to your problems."

2. Mental Time Travel: Visualizing oneself in the future or past to gain perspective on current emotional states.

   [32:41] Ethan Kross: "When you experience the emotion of awe, it leads to a shrinking of the self, making your current problems feel smaller and more manageable."

3. Awe-Inducing Activities: Engaging with vast and indescribable experiences to trigger feelings of awe, which can diminish the perceived size of personal problems.

   [33:20] Ethan Kross: "When you feel smaller in the vastness of the universe, your personal problems also feel smaller."

Personal Anecdotes and Applications

Kim and Penn share their personal experiences with anxiety and how Ethan’s tools have impacted their lives. Kim discusses her struggle with perimenopause-induced anxiety and how self-talk strategies have provided relief.

[18:28] Kim Holderness: "Hearing that anxiety is a tool is liberating. It helps me view my anxiety not just as a hindrance but as something that can be managed and even utilized positively."

Penn adds his own twist by describing his unique form of mental time travel inspired by his love for science fiction, which he humorously relates to distancing himself from immediate stressors.

[31:07] Penn Holderness: "When I get overwhelmed, I imagine myself outside the solar system, looking at the Milky Way, which helps me gain perspective and reduce my stress."

Ethan's Insights on Intrusive Thoughts

The conversation also touches on intrusive thoughts and how to handle them. Ethan emphasizes that such thoughts are a universal aspect of the human condition and provides strategies to manage them without self-judgment.

[34:54] Ethan Kross: "Recognizing that intrusive thoughts are a normal part of how our minds work can help alleviate the shame and frustration associated with them."

Conclusion and Takeaways

As the episode wraps up, Ethan underscores the importance of flexibility in emotional management, advocating for a personalized approach to using these tools. He encourages listeners to experiment with different strategies to find what best suits their individual needs.

[29:46] Ethan Kross: "There are no one-size-fits-all solutions for managing your emotions. It's about finding a combination of tools that work best for you."

Kim and Penn express their gratitude for Ethan’s insights, highlighting how his research-backed methods have provided them with practical ways to manage their anxiety and improve their emotional well-being.

[40:17] Kim Holderness: "We love Ethan Cross and all the work he's doing. I'm going to start managing my emotions and it, it's all over for you once I figure out how to do this."

---

Key Quotes

• Ethan Kross on Emotional Management:
  "Managing your emotions means being able to turn the volume on your emotions up or down, lengthen or shorten how long you sit in an emotional state, and in some cases, shift entirely from one experience to another." [17:13]

• On the Dual Nature of Self-Talk:
  "Self-talk is both an asset and a liability. It's a good tool, but it can also get us into trouble when we ruminate and worry excessively." [24:09]

• On Intrusive Thoughts:
  "Recognizing that intrusive thoughts are a normal part of how our minds work can help alleviate the shame and frustration associated with them." [34:54]

---

Final Thoughts

This episode serves as a valuable resource for anyone looking to understand and manage their anxiety better. Through the expertise of Ethan Kross and the relatable anecdotes from Kim and Penn Holderness, listeners are equipped with actionable strategies grounded in scientific research to lead more balanced and fulfilling lives.

For more information on Ethan Kross’s work and his books, visit ethancrosskross.com.

---

Note: This summary omits sponsored segments and advertisements to focus solely on the core content of the episode.

Transcript

[Jonathan Fields]

Hey, this is Jonathan Fields, host of the Good Life Project podcast. Boost Mobile reminds me of what I love when someone reimagines what's possible. They have invested billions in building America's newest 5G network, becoming the country's fourth major carrier. They are doing things differently, offering a $25 monthly unlimited plan that never increases in price and letting you try their service risk free for 30 days. With blazing fast 5G and plans for all the latest devices, they're changing the game. Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store or find them online@boost mobile.com the Boost Mobile Network, together with their roaming partners, covers 99% of the US population. 5G speeds not available in all areas.

[Penn Holderness]

You know, it feels just like yesterday when our kids were tiny newborns. And now Kim, they're already exploring the world in new ways. I mean exploring. They're leaving the house. They're going to college.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, just one of them. Just one of them.

[Penn Holderness]

It is a beautiful whirlwind journey and it is comforting to know that there are some constants along.

[Kim Holderness]

And just like you're always there for your little one, Little Bellies is committed to being there for you. Offering age appropriate options as your little one explores new tastes and textures.

[Penn Holderness]

Little Belly's offers age appropriate organic snacks made with wholesome and natural ingredients and avoiding any artificial colors, flavors and additives.

[Kim Holderness]

Little Belly supports exploration and discovery by encouraging self feeding.

[Penn Holderness]

Convenient for busy parents, Little Belly's is a helpful and wholesome option for on the go snacking.

[Kim Holderness]

The product range is a consistent support system for parents as their children grow and develop.

[Penn Holderness]

Plus they've got a variety of products from Puffs to Pick Me Sticks to cater to different stages and preferences.

[Kim Holderness]

The early years are a time of constant change and growth for your little one. Little Belly's is committed to being your reliable source of support, offering wholesome snacks as they navigate every new stage.

[Penn Holderness]

Find Little Belly snacks at retailers near you and [e-mail] Little Bellies do what's.

[Kim Holderness]

Natural this show is sponsored by Midi Health.

[Penn Holderness]

You know there are great things that come with age, wisdom, experience and knowledge, to name just a few.

[Kim Holderness]

But if you're a woman over 40, it can also bring some less desirable things like hot flashes, insomnia, brain fog, moodiness and weight gain. All those symptoms of menopause and perimenopause.

[Penn Holderness]

Kim, I am feeling you as you go through perimenopause as you navigate it. I know those symptoms are not fun and they can significantly impact quality of life.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, I think one of the things I wasn't prepared for is the brain fog. I will start a sentence and it's become this family joke and I'll just like.

[Penn Holderness]

You'll stop talking and I have to finish it.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. Because in my head I'm finishing it and then I'll just.

[Penn Holderness]

You'll stop and you'll make. And I'll have to know. But I've done it for a while.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. And I just have. I don't. And I'll forget what I was talking about in the middle of a sentence.

[Penn Holderness]

So we're talking about MIDI health.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes. Okay. That's. This is what we're talking about. Okay. Hormonal transition is a fact of life, but that doesn't mean you have to accept its symptoms as just enough. Another part of aging.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. Many clinicians are menopause experts. They are equipped to support you with safe, effective, FDA approved medications as well as supplements, lifestyle coaching, and preventative health guidance.

[Kim Holderness]

You'll come out of the experience feeling heard and with a plan to start feeling better. They provide specialized care for your specific concerns.

[Penn Holderness]

All MIDI services are covered by insurance and they are conveniently accessible through telehealth visits and 247 messaging.

[Kim Holderness]

You deserve to feel great. Book your virtual visit [e-mail] that's join.

[Penn Holderness]

M I D I dot com.

[Ethan Cross]

As bad as what we're going through is, it will eventually fade as time moves on.

[Kim Holderness]

I'm gonna start managing my emotions and it's all over for you once I figure out how to do this.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, we get older every day got more wrinkles.

[Ethan Cross]

That's okay.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, we're laughing. When we age, life is like a comedy st. And that's why we got laugh lines.

[Kim Holderness]

Hey, everybody, I'm Kim Holderness.

[Penn Holderness]

And I'm Penn Holderness. And welcome to Laugh Lines, where we celebrate the fun glory, all of the warts, all of the celebrations, all of the stuff that comes with aging.

[Kim Holderness]

We're proud of it.

[Penn Holderness]

Yes.

[Kim Holderness]

Right? We want to live better. If your daughter looked at your old prom dress hanging in the attic and said, wow, mom, that's great. It's vintage.

[Penn Holderness]

This is the show for you.

[Kim Holderness]

You are home. And that actually happened because she. I think she had a couple friends that had. Were wearing their mom's old prom dresses and she's like, wow. It's cool that it's vintage, though.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

This is our fifth episode, you guys, and we're growing a community. And the more of these we have, the more we hear from you and you'll learn that you Are going to be a very important part of this because you can interact with us at any time on the laugh lines. Laugh line.

[Kim Holderness]

Or you can email us.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. And all that information is in the comments below. There's a email and a phone number that you can call about whatever you're thinking about. Just let us know. We want to put you on the.

[Kim Holderness]

Show and we love your comments. Like Clinton Coleman 3227 says, the fact that you both have actual paper on clipboards. Laugh emoji. Laugh emoji. Laugh emoji. Yes. Okay, so here's the deal. We are producing this show by ourselves and we were going to get computers like on just to have information. Too bulky. It just took up too much. So we were going to get iPads. We don't quite yet have the budget for iPads. So what we want you to do is share this episode with somebody and then we'll have a budget for iPads. If not, until then, we are sticking.

[Penn Holderness]

With paper and clipboard and funny story. Because the next thing on the clipboard says, another comment on YouTube from our breadback episode. I can't read this. So I'm like sitting here trying to do this and realizing clipboards don't allow me to zoom in. Can you read that?

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. Okay, hold on. I have to do this. Okay. Sam with her young eyes.

[Sam Allen]

30 year olds coming in.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Sam Allen]

Van's mom, 1, 2, 3, said while navigating through my 60s, I keep finding odd sources of loose areas that no one warned me about. Oh, I'm sorry, but what is this fat growing above my elbow? I catch it moving when I'm not and I don't like it. And then we have Norma Dare, who says, when I first noticed the change in my back, I was horrified. My back is melting.

[Jonathan Fields]

This is how I felt.

[Penn Holderness]

That's how I felt.

[Kim Holderness]

Brad back episode.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, it felt like that was when I saw it on my back. I'm like, is something melting off the side of my body?

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, so stay tuned until the end of the show when we discuss pen's hashtag not sponsored and our gen Z slang that we translate.

[Penn Holderness]

This week we also may have come up with a new nickname for Kim.

[Kim Holderness]

Now onto our guest. This topic can benefit anyone at any age. We were fortunate enough to have met in person, Ethan Cross. And at a recent event, he is lovely and fascinating. I have just finished his book and I went in, let me tell you, very, very skeptical. So his new book is called shift managing your emotions so they don't manage You. I'm going to read his bio here in a second. But I will say managing our emotions, especially as we age. I thought it was going to get easier for me. Perhaps it's perimenopause, whatever the anxiety of it all, like the obsessive thoughts, the spiral. For me it's gotten harder. And his book is. Has some real fact research based tools that I have in the past couple days put into practice. I went in very skeptical, skeptical that I could actually manage my emotions. They actually work. Ethan Cross is a psychologist, neuroscientist and professor at the University of Michigan where he leads, get this, the emotion and self control labor. He's a leading expert on the science of self talk and emotional regulation. He's the author of the critically acclaimed book the voice in our head, why it matters and how to harness it and the new book, managing your emotions so they don't manage you in shift.

[Penn Holderness]

Ethan unpacks how we can better understand and direct our emotions using science based strategies that promote clarity, resilience and well being. Welcome. Ethan Cross.

[Ethan Cross]

Hey, great to be here. Great to see you guys again. Excited to chat.

[Penn Holderness]

He's saying again because we met at this sort of weekend retreat with our mutual friend Adam Grant. And so we just got to talking, Ethan.

[Kim Holderness]

Great conversation.

[Penn Holderness]

We just had this awesome kind of chat with the whole group and we were, we were just keeping the chat going, talking about what we just heard and, and then all of a sudden Kim and I go, okay, well we're at our hotel room now because. And Ethan, he'd gotten in the elevator, walked up along with. Very naturally. But I think we all, I think we all were hoping that we'd end up at a bar somewhere.

[Kim Holderness]

There's no bar.

[Ethan Cross]

Well, I think you did invite me into your hotel room for a drink, which I politely declined at that point.

[Penn Holderness]

Mostly because there's no drinks at this place. Like it was alcohol.

[Ethan Cross]

This is true. This is a dry establishment.

[Kim Holderness]

I know. Did I. I mean, we're gonna get to your book, which was great. But I did go at some point and I don't, I actually don't drink a lot. Don't drink it a lot at all. But I just, There's a lot of learning happening and I just needed a glass of wine and asked like. And it was one of those like wellness hotel places. And I asked them like, where can I get a glass of wine? And they're like, ma' am. And they looked at me and the shame I felt, I was like, yes. Oh, okay. Or a hot decaf tea. That would be great.

[Ethan Cross]

Yeah. Lemon ginger tea was more the flavor. That was the vibe of this establishment.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes. Yeah. And it was all good. Anyway, I need to know, Ethan, how do you get to be the director of an emotions lab? Like, what's the trajectory there?

[Ethan Cross]

You get the job offering and then you decide, I'm going to name this lab the Emotion and Self Control Lab. And it really is as simple as that. I mean, there's obviously more technicality. I got a PhD, learned how to use tools of science and neuroscience to study emotion and how to manage it. So I did have some track record before the university that I work at gave me this position. But yeah, that's a common trajectory. So once you get a job at a university, you set up your own lab and it's kind of like a. Think of it like a startup.

[Penn Holderness]

Right.

[Ethan Cross]

And I'm going to now build this organization. The mission of this organization that I created, this Emotion and Self Control Lab, was to improve our understanding of how people can manage their emotions to live better lives.

[Penn Holderness]

When I hear University of Michigan Emotion and Self Control Lab with no other context, my thought is, okay, these are a bunch of, like, college kids that he is just messing with. And, and they're learning, but they're willing to do it, and they're all learning a little something. So they're in college and they're like, holy crap, like Professor Cross, like, we just did this weird thing and now we're learning more about ourselves. Am I anywhere in the ballpark? Because it sounds like kind of fun.

[Ethan Cross]

Well, it is a lot of fun. Sometimes we do put people in uncomfortable positions to learn more about how to help them. So I always like to give people that disclaimer. So I view my job as to figure out how people can effectively manage the curve balls that life throws at us, which I don't know about the two of you, but for myself and a lot of people I know, like, I get those pitches almost every day. And the question is, like, what happens when you do? Some people really go down the vortex of despair, doom and gloom, anxiety, anger, sadness, and others are able to rebound really quickly. And so in order to test predictions about, hey, what are the. What are the tools? What are the exercises that you can use to. If we stick with the sports example, hit 400 or, or be a psychological jiu jitsu expert, like, I've got to put people, I've got to induce some pain. I've got to put them at the plate and throw that curveball in the first place. So what do I mean by that? A long time ago, when I started my career, we were really interested in understanding how people could better manage social pain. Like the pain of being socially rejected. Either of you ever have any familiarity with that experience?

[Penn Holderness]

So adhd, there is a. Like a rejection. Dysphoria.

[Kim Holderness]

Sensitivity.

[Penn Holderness]

Sensitivity. Dysphoria. That's a huge part of a lot of people's diagnosis. So absolutely.

[Ethan Cross]

So, like, rejection sensitivity was actually a concept that we were studying in this early research. And so what we wanted to do is how do you induce that feeling in the laboratory in a way that resembles everyday life? And so we stumbled on a powerful method for doing that. So what we did is we recruited people. I was in New York City at the time, in graduate school. We recruited people from all over New York, so not just college students with flyers. This was in the stone Age, mind.

[Kim Holderness]

You, when they had paper to communicate.

[Ethan Cross]

Exactly like pre iPhone. We posted these flyers that said, have you recently been rejected in a serious romantic relationship lasting at least six months? If so, participate in a study on social and physical pain. And we paid them handsomely to do that. And what we asked them to do, part of what we asked them to do in the study, was bring a picture of the person who rejected them. And so if you've ever been rejected by another person and still feel positively towards them, like, what does it feel like to look at that photo album after you're no longer with that person? It induces that feeling. So that's what we did in this study to kind of get them to experience that emotion. And then we tested a few predictions about how to help them actually feel better. And so that's typically the kind of things we do in our studies. We are often putting people in temporary, uncomfortable positions. We always have an ethics review committee tell us it's okay. And then we try to find tools, easy to use, tools that people can use to manage those experiences.

[Kim Holderness]

More on this after these words.

[Penn Holderness]

Are you looking for a new podcast for your kids? Maybe something to hold their attention on car trips?

[Kim Holderness]

We know there are a lot of kids podcasts out there, but we found something we think you're gonna love.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, while most of those podcasts are made and hosted by adults, we found one that's for kids. Made by kids and hosted by kids.

[Kim Holderness]

Wild Interest.

[Ethan Cross]

Wild Interest.

[Penn Holderness]

It is super well produced with original music, great sound design, and a whole audio mission designed to calm and regulate kids.

[Kim Holderness]

You know, we talk a lot about ADHD in our podcast, and one really important thing you can do to thrive with ADHD is regulate your nervous system.

[Penn Holderness]

Absolutely. When people get dysregulated, even people without adhd actually Kim, it can snowball and make regular life, well, difficult. Well, Wild Interest is actually designed to help regulate kids nervous systems. There's calm music and thoughtful subject matters and the vocal tone and cadence are all made with the same result in mind. Calm and happy kids.

[Kim Holderness]

Parents. Try the Wild Interest podcast. You'll be hooked. And it's in its second season, so there's tons of episodes to enjoy.

[Penn Holderness]

Wild Interest Follow wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, just imagine you're getting into bed and turning out the lights.

[Penn Holderness]

I'm imagining. Go ahead.

[Kim Holderness]

And then bam. Your brain is filled with all the tasks you didn't do that day. Your to do list for tomorrow and if you're really going to get enough sleep.

[Penn Holderness]

Oh geez, that's. That sounds rough.

[Kim Holderness]

Well Bowman Branch sheets Quiet. All the noise wrapping you in a softest so extraordinary. Your body and mind just effortlessly drift to sleep.

[Penn Holderness]

Their signature sheets are made with the finest 100% organic cotton so you can spend every night in the softest feeling imaginable.

[Kim Holderness]

These best selling sheets feel buttery, breathable and get softer with every wash.

[Penn Holderness]

Discover the difference with Bolen Branch's 30.

[Kim Holderness]

Night guarantee, you can wash style and feel the difference for yourself. And if you don't get your best night's sleep, you can send them back for a full refund.

[Penn Holderness]

But I promise you will feel the quality. Plus it is crafted by artisans who earn the pay and respect that they deserve.

[Kim Holderness]

Feel the difference an extraordinary night's sleep can make. With bowen branch. Get 15% off plus free shipping on your first set of [e-mail] Holderness that's bull.

[Penn Holderness]

And branch B O L L A N D branch.com/holderness to save 15%. Exclusions apply. See site for details.

[Trey Farrow]

Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? Well, with LinkedIn ads you can know you're reaching the right decision makers. You can even target buyers by job title, industry company seniority skills. Wait, did I say job title yet? Get started today and see how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started at LinkedIn.com results, terms and conditions apply.

[Kim Holderness]

Your latest book Shift Managing your emotions so they don't manage you. What does it mean to manage emotions?

[Ethan Cross]

Okay, it means three things. It means being able to turn the Volume on your emotions, whatever you're feeling up or down. So increasing or decreasing the intensity of what you're feeling, it means being able to lengthen or shorten how long you sit in an emotional state. And it means being able to, in some cases, shift entirely from one experience anxiety to another joy. Those are the three features of shifting volume up or down, how long the emotion lasts and what state I'm in. And I think the ability to develop some expertise in that is a something that we have been struggling for as long as we've been roaming the planet in our present form. So there are historical records of our ancestors struggling with this. So if you sometimes have trouble managing your emotions, like, welcome to the human condition. And it's also, I just think, a vitally important skill that has the potential to help. Help do what I found at the lab to really study, which is help people lead better lives, more fulfilling and happy lives.

[Kim Holderness]

If I had a superpower, it would be able to manage my emotions better. I mean, seriously, once I figure out how to, like, get all the protein I need and sleep through the night consistently and manage my anxiety, it's like, it's over for you people. I'm. I'm going to be unstoppable. But in reading your book, which I learned so much from, but there were many times you were talking about, you know, the power of anxiety and how anxiety is a tool. I am part of the population that I medicated because I oftentimes would wake up with just like, crushing anxiety, like, can't get out of bed anxiety.

[Ethan Cross]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

So hearing.

[Penn Holderness]

And I'll jump in and say that you needed it.

[Kim Holderness]

Right. But for sure I will say that. So hearing sometimes, like, anxiety is a tool. Anxiety is good for you. I'm like, what does Ethan know? So I am sure I'm not the first person, but let me ask you.

[Ethan Cross]

Is that really what you thought about me when. When in your inner monologue or were there some other choice words when you heard me say that?

[Penn Holderness]

No, he wants you to manage your emotions and say what's on your mind.

[Kim Holderness]

Having met you in person and, like, listening to your voice, you sound like you were born this way. You were born happy. You were born able. You did. You were born without crushing anxiety and depression. And aren't you just really lucky? I know that you've done a lot of work. I'm assuming you've done a lot of work just from, like, your education and what you do for a living. So I am willing to extend that and say, like, I don't hate this guy. I don't hate him totally right now.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Ethan Cross]

I'm gonna wait 20 minutes and form my judgment after this interview. So, first of all, I experiencing anger and anxiety and sadness like the best of us at times. Here's what I like people to know about their emotions. And most people find this messaging really liberating. Actually, you so often hear that, hey, you should strive to just lead a life filled with positivity at all times. And you know, the implicit idea there is if you don't, if you're not always happy, there's something wrong with you. What I like to tell people is if you experience anxiety and anger and sadness, you know, at times like, there's nothing wrong with you. To the contrary, there's everything that is right with you because that we evolve the capacity to experience those negative emotions for a reason. So I'll give you a couple of examples, like how the hell can anxiety be useful? Give a lot of public presentations. When I think back at the ones that haven't gone as well as the others, they're the talks when I experienced zero anxiety because I had no internal set of cues that effectively communicated to me, hey, hey, dopey, pay attention. That is what I prefer to myself in those situations like focus and prepare for this important task. You want to do a good job. I just kind of rolled in and I was kind of flat. So anxiety helps alert us to things that matter. It can get us to prepare. Now, if the anxiety becomes too intense, intense or lasts too long, that is an an example of an otherwise healthy tool no longer being healthy, too intense, too long, you want to intervene. And the good news here is there's so many things you can do to intervene. But we don't teach people what these tools are. I have students when I teach in college who ask me after I finish the semester. This is great. Professor Cross, why didn't anyone teach us about these tools earlier in life when they could have made a difference? I think that's a problem.

[Penn Holderness]

So you talked about the three factors. Volume was one of them. I think it's important to note that people experience anxiety and that's different from having an anxiety disorder. So that's where the volume gets to the point where sometimes, hey, sometimes you just need medication. Sometimes you need something to help get you past what an active panic attack is. But I do like, I'm super interested in like going back to some of these tools, particularly when you introduce dopey, which is your inner voice that we were getting into self talk There mine is called. So I think most people have that as it. So can. Can we just kind of go back and talk about somehow you like? This is another new thing that I got to learn about because self talk, I've always just heard you need to limit self talk. If you have the type of brain that I have, which is a rejection sensitive ADHD brain, what's the secret recipe to that? Without like it getting out of control.

[Ethan Cross]

Okay, so let's break down self talk and how that works. So self talk, it's both an asset and a liability. So you do not want to live life without an inner voice. And let me explain why really briefly. First of all, what is your inner voice? It's your ability to silently use language. If you know, I asked you to just repeat, go blue three times silently.

[Penn Holderness]

In your head or go tar Heels.

[Ethan Cross]

Go tar hills silently three times. Can you do it?

[Penn Holderness]

Yep.

[Ethan Cross]

Okay, you just activated your inner voice. What does it do for us? How is it good? Research shows athletes who can harness this voice to encourage and motivate. They do better. And then of course, we get rejected. We experience loss in our lives and we try to make sense of it. Why did this happen? What does it mean about me? Use your inner voice to help you create stories that help us understand who we are. So your inner voice, it's a really good tool. Here's the downside of it. It can often get us into trouble because we try to use this tool to work through the difficult stuff, but we get stuck. We ruminate, we worry, we self critique. I call that chatter. It's a dark side of your inner voice and it's a big, big problem. Which pen is probably why you've heard to stay away from it, right? Because it can make it hard to focus. All you could think about are your worries over and over. You can't pay attention to the person across the table from you who's maybe wanting to tell you about their day. It can create friction in our relationships with other people because all you're doing is talking about your problems over and over. And even your most well intentioned loved ones and friends, they don't want to hear you talking over and over. They pull away. And there are health problems that are linked with it too. So there's a good side and a dark side to your inner voice. And the real key is to figure out how do you harness it, how do you prevent it? How do you prevent this kind of chatter from spiraling? Lots of tools you can use there too. So dopey is an example of one. It's a version of one. It's called distanced self talk. What distant self talk involves doing is silently. So pen silently using your own name and you or a nickname to try to coach yourself through a primary thing. How are you going to manage this situation? Research shows that that can be really helpful for allowing people to objectively work through their problems. And here's how this works. Have either of you ever found that you are much better at giving advice to someone else than taking that advice yourself?

[Kim Holderness]

100%, yes.

[Ethan Cross]

Okay. This is a universal. Right. Like we are all giant hypocrites.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes.

[Ethan Cross]

We all fall victim to this bias. Here's the really cool thing about this tool. It's the reason it's my number one go to if I'm struggling with something, most of the time that you use the word you, it's like pointing a finger at someone else. You need to do this. We use the word you and names and we think about and refer to other people. So when you use the word you to refer to yourself or if use your name, it's automatically switching your perspective. It's putting you in this advice giving mode. I'm pretty good at giving advice to other people. I just often suck at doing it for myself. Right, so you're using language to automatically switch your perspective. And that makes it a lot easier for us to give ourselves good advice. So that's one easy to use tool. Let me give you two other very low hanging pieces of fruit here. There's a set of tools called mental time travel. When I'm really struggling with something, I'm really anxious about something. I go into the future and I ask myself, I actually use my name to do this to Ethan. How are you going to feel about this next year, three years from now, five years from now? When I do that, it highlights for me automatically something that all of us know to be true. We know in our core this is true. That as bad as what we're going through is it will eventually fade as time moves on. How am I going to feel about this five years from now? How am I going to feel this one out when like I'm a grandpa and I'm like following the kids around? That shifts your perspective and that can take the edge off. So that's mental time travel into the future. Last thing I'll mention on this time travel is you can also go into the past. So I open up shift by telling the story of my grandmother.

[Penn Holderness]

Which by the way, thanks for doing that. You put me in an emotionally compromised position. In the beginning of the book, I'm sobbing reading the book. And then it's about how to control your emotions. It is a beautifully told story.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ethan Cross]

Well, thank you very much. So the story was, you know, my grandmother's in her early 20s. She's living a small, small town life in eastern Poland. The Nazis invade in a short order of time. Her family slaughtered. She narrowly escapes that fate. She's homeless for several years, manages to move to this country with nothing, rebuilds a family. I end up, you know, being part of that family. And, you know, this is just a remarkable experience. And when things feel like they're not going well for me, I'm effectively on the couch with a cold compress telling my wife it's over, what's going to happen? It really feels like the world is caving in. I jump into the mental time travel machine and I set it for 1943. And I get out and I spend some time with my grandmother. I don't have to spend a lot of time for my perspective to powerfully be broadened. Like, really, Ethan, this is what you're worried about? You could have had everyone you love just killed. And so these are small mental shifts, easy things that you can do if you know how to do them. And look, they're not wiping away anxiety and anger and sadness. They're not turning hard moments into tea parties with ice cream. What they're doing is they're. They're turning the volume down just a little bit, which is often what you need to get in there to solve the problem and move on.

[Kim Holderness]

First of all, the stories you continue to tell about your grandmother throughout the book are beautiful. She sounds like an amazing woman. She didn't. I identified with this part. She didn't talk about this a lot with you. I mean, she was a wonderful, supportive grandmother who you had a great relationship with, but she wasn't pointing to it a lot.

[Penn Holderness]

She was once a year.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, she would. She would talk about it. I would say, I can manage my emotions well, but by managing them, I just choose not to feel them. So avoidance. But in her case, because she had this truly traumatic experience. It wasn't always a bad thing, though, right?

[Ethan Cross]

That's right. So, you know, we often talk about avoidance as a. As though it is a uniform harm. Like never avoid your emotions. It's almost like you have to make a choice. You can either approach and immerse yourself in a problem or you can avoid it. And that's it. Not true. So one like if there's one take home I hope people leave the book with, is that there are no one size fits all solutions for managing your emotions. Different tools, different approaches work for different people. And being flexible is really important. This is what my grandmother benefited from. Once a year she would, she would go deep, she would gather with other people who survived the war and they would immerse themselves in the, in the, in the stories of what they went through. And then they go back to life and they distract from it and they'd revisit it a year later. And that is something that worked really well. First. She lived to her early 90s and had a beautiful life. And so it's really about finding the combination of tools that work best for you and not, not, not assuming that everything is going to work for everyone.

[Penn Holderness]

Can I tell you what my mental time travel is? What it's. And reading your book and listen to you talk, I'm like, I think I do something sort of like this, but it's a little weird.

[Kim Holderness]

Let's hear it.

[Penn Holderness]

When I get overwhelmed and flooded, I don't go into the future and say, hey Penn, what's this going to be like in a year, three years, five years? I go, I go outside the Earth, I go outside the solar system. I'm looking at a Milky Way, I think, and then my brain is gone. It's because I read a lot of sci fi Ethan. I think about the, the fact that like I'm sitting here driving a car, stewing whatever it is that I'm doing. The miracle that that happened and how many gajillions of things had to happen and then, oh my God, then someday it's just gonna stop. Do you know what I'm gonna say? Like, this is crazy. I've never explained this out loud to anyone.

[Ethan Cross]

This is called a shrinking of the self phenomenon. And so you're like, you're going out there, this kind of like space view of yourself. You can. And that's a way of distancing, getting perspective on you. Like I am a speck in this broader universe. So this happens a lot to people when they go see these awe inspiring sights, beautiful sunset. Or, or I actually, I'm a sci fi geek too. It's something we have in common. Like my awe trigger is I think about the fact that there is an SUV roaming on planet Mars right now and it's sending footage back. My mind is not that sophisticated. Like how the hell did we figure out how to blast a vehicle off this planet, safely landed on another planet and Project video.

[Penn Holderness]

Ethan. Ethan. We shot something the size of a refrigerator at a, at a comet a couple of years ago a million miles away, and we freaking hit it.

[Ethan Cross]

Here's how this works. Awe, it's an emotion we experience when we're in the presence of something vast and indescribable. It just feels bigger than ourselves. Amazing sunset, contemplating like the galaxy, the number of planets that exist in the universe. When you experience this emotion of awe, it leads to this experience of a shrinking of the self. You feel smaller when you're contemplating something vast and indescribable. And when you feel smaller, guess what else feels smaller?

[Penn Holderness]

My problem.

[Ethan Cross]

Your. Your problems. So this is a way of putting things in perspective. So keep on putting on the spacesuit going out there. You know, maybe don't do it when you're driving because that might be a little dangerous, but. Yeah, but certainly on walks around the neighborhood.

[Penn Holderness]

Is it possible that this like obsession with reading sci fi before bed and like watching these shows is a, is a form of like accidental anxiety management?

[Ethan Cross]

For me, all of us are stumbling on solutions to try to manage this messy world we're living in. Like, we don't want to feel pain for long periods of time, however you define that, anxiety, sadness, whatever, anger. So we stumble on solutions and sometimes they work, sometimes they're not. They don't work. They make things worse. I think the value of science here is like, you do not have to stumble. Like, why are we not giving people science based guides to manage their emotions from the outset?

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, you had another story in your book about a woman who had a. Her daughter had a really awful peanut allergy incident on a plane. And that triggered from there a lot of intrusive thoughts. And that is something that I, in my life like. It, it, when it got bad, it got really bad, like ocd. Kind of obsessive about that stuff. And talk to us about how. And I think that whole self talk thing helped, but talk to us about those simple cues she used to kind of get out of that spiral.

[Ethan Cross]

Okay, so the first thing to, to recognize like clearly and Penn, you said this before, there's a distinction like between the negative emotions, intrusive thoughts. These are just normal parts of how human beings work. Now when taken to an extreme, they can become more harmful. And that's when you want to get more intense forms of intervention. But all this exists on a continuum. So step one is I really like to normalize for people the fact that intrusive thoughts, like negative thoughts that pop up in your mind and you're ashamed of. This is a universal feature of how our minds work. When I'm teaching about this stuff with undergrads, I'll have them anonymously, I'll ask them a question like, have you experienced a thought, a dark thought that you're ashamed of and wouldn't want anyone else to know within the past week or two? If so, I want you to just pipe it into a survey and no identifying information so it's totally anonymous. There's some dark stuff, dark stuff that comes out there and guess what? There's dark stuff that happens in all of our minds at times. So one thing that people often find to be like, just recognizing this first and foremost, this is how the mind works. That in and of itself, I think can help a lot of people. There's nothing wrong with you if you experience an intrusive thought every now and again. I tell this anecdote in the book of when I'm at the gym, I will often have a dark thought of I'm carrying a dumbbell from one side of the gym to the other and there's a, you know, a person on a yoga mat in my way. I'll often have this thought of dropping the dumbbell on their face. Like, you know, this is, dude, I've.

[Penn Holderness]

Had that, I've had that same thought. What is going, yeah, what would happen.

[Ethan Cross]

If I like dropped it like right squarely in the middle? I mean, it's not a pleasant experience thing to imagine. Now what's happening in my head, it's probably my, my mind generating a worst case scenario that I don't want to happen. Because when I have that thought, what I do is I switch hands that the dumbbell is being held in and I take the longer route. You know, I stay like 20ft away from them. So there's an adaptive feature to it. But, but I know that every now and again my mind's going to spit off something that I don't endorse. I don't believe as long as they don't act on it, that's okay. So that's number one. Intrusive thoughts are part of how we operate. So you can't control what's going to pop into your head. But once that emotional thought is activated, you can control what happens next. And knowing that I think is step one.

[Kim Holderness]

And it was helpful for me because I'm probably amongst the camp of people like, oh, I have no control over this now. I know that I there, there are measures in which I can control and I did I do think the, my imagination's very active and I, I, I can spiral on something that, you know, all these terrible things. And I used to be a news reporter, so I've heard of every terrible thing that could happen in any circumstance. Like, yeah, I got stories about jet skis and water parks and stuff. Like, you would never get into any of these things. So I, and then when I hear my kids like, oh, we're going on jet skis, I have to. Now, instead of imagining the hor. Horrible, tragic thing that could happen, I'm going to imagine, what if they have an amazing time? What if they are super safe and they wear their life jackets and they have an amazing time. And I picture them having fun. Like, that's going. That kind of changes the feelings in my chest. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I, I think it's a muscle. And I think all the tools you listed and that you've talked about here today, they are going to take that shift. I mean, the name of the book, but it's going to take that. It's like a muscle that I'm going to have to exercise and soon it will become, I hope, the habit of, you know, you do the time travel, you get some physical distance, you get some mental distance. And just being able to, like, rename the talk I have with myself, I'll.

[Ethan Cross]

Just say it does take time. Different tools for different people.

[Kim Holderness]

Where can people find information? We're gonna have the links to both of your books in our show notes, but where can people find information about what you're doing?

[Ethan Cross]

It's gonna shock you. Www use ethancross k r o-s s.com.

[Penn Holderness]

I just love that you added the www.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, well, I loved your book. The tools were very useful and I'm one of those people that I love a rule. I love instructions, I love a script, but I don't love it unless I know why. So the explaining the science behind why I'm doing this was really helpful. So must read for my anxiety. Girls.

[Ethan Cross]

Thank you. As you both know, as celebrated authors, there's nothing better than knowing that a book has impact on people on some way, in some way, because that's why I think a lot of us do this. So it's great to hear that some of those tools resonated.

[Kim Holderness]

So I thank you for doing the research and I thank you for writing the book.

[Ethan Cross]

Well, thanks for having me on. This was super fun.

[Kim Holderness]

Love Ethan Cross and all the work he's doing. And yeah, I'm going to start managing my emotions and it, it's all over for you. Once I figure out how to do this. Watch out, world.

[Penn Holderness]

This is going to be your revenge emotions, it sounds like. Did you just turn that into a revenge thing?

[Kim Holderness]

No. What I would be capable of. Oh, my gosh. If I didn't have crippling anxiety, what I could do in this world, what.

[Penn Holderness]

The key would be, managing it so it doesn't all entirely go away. Right. Like, I know that was the part that was tough to sweat over.

[Kim Holderness]

Some anxiety is good for you.

[Penn Holderness]

It is.

[Kim Holderness]

No, it is. No, I know, I know, I know, I know. So it's, it's, it's good to have it. But can you imagine? I. I would. Oh, my gosh. The world would be a different place.

[Penn Holderness]

Let's go to the laugh lines. Laugh line, Play the open. Recently, we had an episode where we asked ourselves, ourselves, are we too old for all inclusive resorts?

[Kim Holderness]

And we said yes because it felt like a lot of pressure to eat and drink all the food. Right. It just, it, it, you know, it would be better and cheaper, actually, if we just went to a normal resort. We had a brilliant counterpoint to this.

[Allison]

Hey, my name is Allison. I'm from Tucson, Arizona, and I just listened to your second episode and I love it. But you guys talked about, are we too old for all inclusive resorts? And I'm going to one next week, also out of the country. And I'm very excited because we're going with our young adult children who we don't live with anymore. They're in their early 20s, and I am excited that we won't have to deal with logistics like, where are we driving for dinner, what's the menu, what does it cost? Like, all that money stuff is gone. We're not worried about that. And I get that we could get a better deal somewhere, but now we don't need to think about it, which I'm very happy about. And as far as the drinks go, that's just on me to be in moderation, which may or may may not happen, depending on the day. But I love that for our family and for our young adult kids, it's just wide open. It takes all the think out of it and the planning and the researching, you know, which restaurant should we go to tonight? So I am very excited about that part, and I'll let you know later if I'm too old for it. But I think it is going to be perfect for my family. Thanks so much for your podcast. Love it.

[Ethan Cross]

Bye.

[Penn Holderness]

All right, Allison, I want you to call us back after the trip. And I have some follow up questions for you and you can call and answer them. Okay, question number one. How much did your kids drink? Because they were. If. Dude, if my parents took me to an all inclusive resort in my early 20s, early 20s, they would not make a dime off of me. Although it's interesting, the one time that we did go, they, they make these pina coladas and they make them so sweet that you can only have so many.

[Kim Holderness]

I mean, really good too.

[Ethan Cross]

So.

[Penn Holderness]

And then my second question is, like, what, what was your general like stress vibe compared to when you take another vacation? Because I think she might be right about the planning part.

[Kim Holderness]

She has changed my mind. I think that if my kids were in their early 20s, I think that is a genius way to do a family trip.

[Penn Holderness]

But right now, no, no.

[Kim Holderness]

Right now, no, no.

[Penn Holderness]

Got it.

[Kim Holderness]

Speaking of alcohol, we have another segment.

[Penn Holderness]

We like to call what Gen Z ers are saying. So we don't know what our daughter is talking about most of the time and we feel like we're not alone here and we feel like we can help you by giving you a weekly definition of a word we've heard that we now understand.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. Gen Z Sling of the week. Borg, if you were a loyal listener of this podcast, you have heard us talk about it because I. According to People magazine, I believe.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, we'll get to that in a second.

[Kim Holderness]

Am an expert. But Borg B O R G stands for blackout rage gallon and it's a large individual sized alcoholic beverage often prepared in a gallon drug. It typically contains heart alcohol, water flavorings and electrolytes. Here's what I was saying. I think that these are actually good things.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, right. So here's what happens. Someone had a Borg comment somewhere on social media, like where they had this, this gallon. Kim commented on that page saying, and I love this Kim quote, Borg is way better than the stuff I drank out of bathtubs and line trash cans when I was in college.

[Kim Holderness]

Right, right.

[Penn Holderness]

Because you know, like, you have control over what it is and there's like, there's so much crap people are putting in their drinks. There's stories about this all over the place. So People magazine comes out with an article. All you have to do is Google Kim Holderness Borg and you'll pull it right up. And we, it was so ridiculous, but we got a good laugh out of it. Thank God my wife has a good sense of humor because it was written as Borg. The damaging trend that college children are doing. And it's all these doctors like Dr. Mitchell Trubisky. It was like, oh, it's can cause lots of hospitalization. However, Internet influencer Kim Holderness disagrees and thinks that Borging is awesome or something like that. And then they quoted completely out of context that social media post that I just had, not explaining anything at all, which is you about, you know, what if they're putting fentanyl or whatever drinks and. And just left it out there. And it was some. And look, I, I love people. I read people.com.

[Kim Holderness]

They had an exclusive on our book launch cover. Love you.

[Penn Holderness]

But this was a hilarious misuse of one of your. Of one of your interviews. And so now Kim is known as the Borg Queen of America.

[Kim Holderness]

Of America. Okay, here's where it's problematic. If it is full to the brim of nothing but alcohol. Absolutely horrible. Do not do this.

[Penn Holderness]

Right.

[Kim Holderness]

But as a woman and I, I'm sending my daughter to college and we've already had the talk. Like, you don't you take something that's. You don't take something for people you don't know. I am so concerned about people putting things in women's drinks that if you can control what you're drinking, you can also put Gatorade in it. It doesn't have to be alcohol. Or if it is, it's so light and you still feel like you're participating. So that's what I was saying is that my first frat party that I went to in college, they were putting trash cans in trash cans. They ran out of alcohol and they were putting cough syrup in it. Okay. So I thought if I could have brought whatever and it would not have been pure alcohol. That is my defense of it. If you're. If it's truly just 100 grain alcohol or something. No, that's. That's awful. Don't do that.

[Penn Holderness]

Borg advocate Kim Holderness disagrees with these distinguished doctors.

[Sam Allen]

New merch items.

[Penn Holderness]

We're gonna end with a hashtag non sponsored. This is where we talk about stuff that we love that no one is paying us to talk about.

[Kim Holderness]

And so, by the way, we love lots of things. And if, if people are paying us to talk about things, we'll do it. And we like those things. We have to like the things.

[Penn Holderness]

But that's not this.

[Kim Holderness]

But what if somebody sponsored the not sponsored segment?

[Penn Holderness]

That would be meta as bleep. This week's not hashtag not sponsored is this new show that I found.

[Kim Holderness]

It's not new for me.

[Penn Holderness]

This show that I've newly found. Yeah, it's been around for like, Five years, called Game Changer. My son, God bless my son, he's like, really into improv comedy. He introduced it to me. It's. It's got adult situations, it's got bad words. My son's 15. He's been through it. It is the most joyful content I have found in a very long time, I would say since Ted Lasso. First of all, it's the celebration of these incredibly hysterical comedians who can just come up with anything because the concept of the show is it changes every week and you don't know what it's about until it starts. And the guy who runs it, Samurai, his dad was like Secretary of Labor for Clinton. He is the best game show host I have ever come across. And I am a huge game show host. Snobby.

[Kim Holderness]

And you know that I want to be married to a game show host. That's my dream job.

[Penn Holderness]

I couldn't do what he does. He is he. Yes. And people so well. He gets the most out of everyone. His laugh is part of the most, like, important part of the show. Everyone in this show comes up with incredible stuff right on the. On the dot. And he keeps the show moving perfectly. He. It. It. Everyone so clearly loves each other. Who's there. It makes me want to hang out with all of them. Sam is nodding her head. Sam is.

[Kim Holderness]

Tell them where we. We can watch it, Sam.

[Sam Allen]

Yeah, yeah. Huge game changer fan. Game Changer is available on Dropout tv. That's Dropout tv. They've got a bunch of great shows on there.

[Kim Holderness]

And so fun.

[Penn Holderness]

I laugh.

[Sam Allen]

I laugh so soon as I get the notification that the episode is live, I'm like, drop everything. I'm watching it.

[Kim Holderness]

I know it's, it's. It's a. Definitely for our family, especially because PC so into improv comedy. It's been a fun one.

[Penn Holderness]

Anyway, this segment was not sponsored by Game Changer. Laugh Lines is written and produced by Kim Holderness. Pen Holderness. That's me. And Anne Marie Tapke with original music by Pen Holderness. It is filmed, edited and live produced by Sam Allen and hosted by acast.

[Kim Holderness]

As always, we love to hear from you. Please write us at podcast [e-mail] or leave a voicemail at 323-364-3929 and we will talk to you soon on the laugh line.

[Penn Holderness]

We did it.

[Trey Farrow]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Farah Pets]

You were made for going the extra mile for your pet, and Farah Pets was made to do the same. Farah Pets supplements are vet created with innovative ingredients that combine eastern and western therapies so your pet can thrive. After all, you would do anything to help your pet feel their best, and so would we. Visit farahpets.com to get 20% off today. That's F-E-R-A pets.com P O D Farah Pets we were made for this.

[Little Bellies]

There's no manual for motherhood, and that's okay. At Little Belly's we believe in simple, wholesome goodness. Our delicious organic snacks are created for every age and stage. Made with simple ingredients you can trust. We do what's natural so you can too as your little ones grow naturally and play through every major milestone. Check out our full range of organic [e-mail] Little bellies, do what's natural.

[Trey Farrow]

Think advertising on TikTok isn't for your business?

[Penn Holderness]

Think again. We've generated over 100,000 leads, which has converted into over 40,000 sales for our pet insurance policies. My name is Trey Farrow. I am the CEO CEO of Spot Pet Insurance. TikTok's Smart Plus Aipowered Automation takes the guesswork out of targeting, bidding and optimizing creative. If I can advertise on TikTok, you can too.

[Trey Farrow]

Drive more leads and scale your business. Today only on TikTok.

[Penn Holderness]

Head over to getstarted TikTok.com tiktokads.