I Have Bread Back Now with Dr. Herman Pontzer

Summary

Podcast Summary: "I Have Bread Back Now" with Dr. Herman Pontzer

Episode Title: I Have Bread Back Now with Dr. Herman Pontzer
Release Date: April 29, 2025
Hosts: Kim & Penn Holderness
Guest: Dr. Herman Pontzer, Professor of Evolutionary Anthropology and Global Health at Duke University

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Introduction

In this episode of Laugh Lines with Kim & Penn Holderness, the hosts delve into the complexities of metabolism, aging, and weight management with esteemed guest Dr. Herman Pontzer. The discussion is both enlightening and relatable, especially for those navigating the physical changes that come with aging.

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Guest Background

Dr. Herman Pontzer is a renowned anthropologist whose groundbreaking research challenges conventional beliefs about metabolism, exercise, and weight loss. With over two decades of experience, including field studies with the Hadza hunter-gatherers in Tanzania, Dr. Pontzer brings a wealth of knowledge to the conversation. He is also the author of The Misunderstood Science of Metabolism and his latest book, Adaptable: How Your Unique Body Really Works and Why Our Biology Unites Us.

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Understanding Metabolism Over the Lifespan

[09:15] Dr. Pontzer: "Every organism on the planet is playing the same game, which is taking energy from its environment and trying to turn it into offspring. That is the game of life."

Dr. Pontzer begins by explaining the fundamental role of metabolism in human survival and reproduction. He emphasizes that metabolism is not just about burning calories but is intricately linked to how our bodies function and evolve.

Metabolic Changes:

• Infancy to Adulthood: Metabolism spikes by 50% in the first year of life, remains high through childhood, and gradually stabilizes by the early 20s.

• Middle Age: Contrary to popular belief, Dr. Pontzer reveals that metabolism remains steady through the midlife years (late 40s to early 60s). He notes, "We were shocked that the data don't support that [metabolic decline]." However, he acknowledges that loss of lean muscle mass can lead to a decrease in metabolic rate.

• Later Years: A decline in metabolism typically begins around the age of 60.

Implications for Listeners:

Both Kim (49) and Penn (50) share their personal experiences with unexpected weight gain and changes in body composition, such as Penn's humorous description of his "bread back."

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The Myth of Metabolic Boosters

[20:14] Dr. Pontzer: "There are two sort of families of products that are sold to boost your metabolism. They fall into two categories... one category is things that don't work. And the other category are things that are illegal."

Dr. Pontzer debunks the effectiveness of popular metabolic boosters, categorizing them into ineffective supplements and illegal substances. He advises against relying on any product claiming to significantly boost metabolism.

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Exercise and Metabolism

[16:10] Dr. Pontzer: "Exercise is really good for you and it's good at all ages and we should all be probably doing more of it. But yeah, it doesn't really boost your metabolism the way we think it does."

While acknowledging the undeniable health benefits of exercise, Dr. Pontzer clarifies that exercise alone is not a substantial tool for weight loss. He explains that the body compensates for increased physical activity by reducing energy expenditure elsewhere, such as inflammation.

Key Points:

• Initial Impact: Starting an exercise regimen may temporarily increase calorie burning.

• Adaptation: Over time, the body adjusts, diminishing the additional calorie expenditure from exercise.

• Holistic Benefits: Despite not significantly boosting metabolism, exercise reduces inflammation and stress, contributing to overall health.

Personal Anecdotes:

Kim shares her experience training for a half Ironman, noting how increased physical activity led to unintended weight gain due to metabolic adjustments.

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Diet: The Primary Tool for Weight Management

[35:11] Dr. Pontzer: "The best tool you have to try to manage your weight is your diet."

Dr. Pontzer emphasizes that diet is the most effective strategy for weight management. He advises focusing on:

• Whole Foods: Prioritize unprocessed, high-protein, and high-fiber foods to promote satiety and reduce calorie intake.

• Personal Preference: Find a sustainable dietary approach that suits individual tastes and lifestyles.

• Environmental Control: Keep calorie-dense, ultra-processed foods out of the home to prevent overeating.

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Hormonal Changes and Metabolism

[28:39] Kim Holderness: "I'm going through perimenopause. And that just like jacks me up. How does the hormonal shifts that specifically a woman goes through at this time impact metabolism?"

Dr. Pontzer discusses the impact of hormonal fluctuations during perimenopause on metabolism. While hormones like estrogen and progesterone influence fat distribution and general well-being, they do not have a significant direct effect on metabolic rate. Instead, changes in how active one feels may indirectly affect overall energy expenditure.

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Insights from Hunter-Gatherer Studies

[37:09] Dr. Pontzer: "Obesity really is a modern problem... cultures all over the world that haven't gone through the industrial... they don't have this issue."

Dr. Pontzer shares findings from his studies with hunter-gatherer societies, highlighting the rarity of obesity in these populations. He attributes the prevalence of obesity in modern societies to lifestyle changes and the accessibility of high-calorie, processed foods.

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Laugh Lines Segments: Are We Too Old For…

Throughout the episode, Kim and Penn engage in their signature "Laugh Lines" segments, humorously debating whether certain activities or trends are appropriate for their age group. Topics include:

• All-Inclusive Resorts: Kim expresses reservations about the pressure to consume all-inclusive offerings, while Penn shares his strategy to avoid being taken advantage of.

• Adult Diapers: A humorous recount of Kim's experience with pelvic floor therapy and the practicalities of managing bodily functions during physical activities.

Notable Quote:

[39:50] Kim Holderness: "Our habit of two episodes, we have some fun segments."

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Concluding Thoughts

Dr. Pontzer wraps up the discussion by reinforcing the importance of understanding one’s body and the limitations of metabolic manipulation through external means. He encourages listeners to focus on sustainable dietary habits and regular physical activity for long-term health benefits.

Final Advice:

• Diet Over Supplements: Prioritize whole, unprocessed foods and manage calorie intake based on individual needs.

• Sustainable Exercise: Incorporate regular physical activity for its myriad health benefits beyond calorie burning.

• Awareness of Modern Challenges: Recognize the role of modern lifestyles in the obesity epidemic and strive for mindful eating and living.

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Listener Engagement

Kim and Penn invite listeners to share their experiences and questions through voicemails or emails, fostering a community of shared humor and support in navigating the aging process.

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Thank you for tuning into "Laugh Lines with Kim & Penn Holderness." For more insights and to connect with the hosts, visit [e-mail] or leave a voicemail at 323-364-3929.

Transcript

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[Pen Holderness]

Can you tell what's happening? So Kim is asking all these questions and she's waiting to be inspired and encouraged and full of hope. And every time I look over at her, she's like, well, this. Yeah, we get older every day. Got more wrinkles. That's okay. Yeah, we're laughing. When we age, life is like a comedy stage. And that's why we got laugh lines.

[Kim Holderness]

Hi, I'm Kim Holderness.

[Pen Holderness]

I'm Pen Holderness, and this is Laugh Lines with Kim and Pen Holderness.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

We can't.

[Pen Holderness]

We don't have to say it twice.

[Kim Holderness]

We definitely don't have to say it twice.

[Pen Holderness]

This is our second one of these and we're still working out the kinks, but the opening music in the background's got me kind of.

[Kim Holderness]

Thank you for being here. And if you're watching us on YouTube, you're the real one also. But if you're listening, always audio first we love it that you're here. And our longtime listeners, thank you again. The rebrand of this website is just looking at life and all the funny things that happens through the lens of a couple who is aging and trying to age well. And speaking of aging.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

One of the joys I've personally had with aging is just been all, like, the fun new things that your body gets to do.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah. And you've talked about this a fair amount through the lens of menopause and things that are happening in your body. And it's mostly been stuff that we've been talking about with you. I've got a new one.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh, tell me.

[Pen Holderness]

So I've got bread back.

[Kim Holderness]

Tell me what bread back is, honey.

[Pen Holderness]

All right, so there's probably another name for this, but we had a fun New Year's fun. Right. And. And if there was food in front of us, we ate it. If there was drink in front of us, we drank it.

[Kim Holderness]

No regrets.

[Pen Holderness]

Rented a car, drove out into. Into the God's country of ski ville or whatever you want to call it, and then got back into Raleigh. And I got back into my car that I'm familiar with, and I was like, huh? Did somebody like, else someone been sleeping in my bed? Like, there was. Was there a lumber lumbar? Was there a lumbar support? And I look back and there's no. No, there was nothing. I had an extra layer of something on my back that wasn't there before. The rest of my body appeared to look essentially the same. My face, my stomach, everything else was fine, but I had this layer that was kind of. If you look at my jeans in my back, that was kind of. If you've ever seen a loaf of bread, a delicious loaf of bread that you've baked that there's a little kind of bloop. It just kind of comes out of the. The side of it and then smooths out around the edges and then goes back down. That's what my body looked like when I got out of the car and looked at it. And I'm like, how? I guess I don't normally look at that part of my body. Where did this come from?

[Kim Holderness]

Like a frog wearing pants. Right, Is what it looked like.

[Pen Holderness]

There's another good name. Exactly. But I've got bread back now, guys. And I don't know that I've done anything particularly differently, but it's like I turned 50, and all of a sudden they're like, okay, here, it's time for the bread back.

[Kim Holderness]

Sir, I think what you're saying. And I often joke about this in the menopause Jo journey that I'm on is that I always say items have shifted during flight.

[Pen Holderness]

Yes.

[Kim Holderness]

And that's what that means, is that it's not. The number on the scale for me is pretty similar. It's within, like, 5 to 10 pounds of what it's always been my adult life. But it. It's in different places. Like, I always gained weight in my butt before, which I loved because I have, like, a naturally flat butt, so I actually didn't mind if I gained weight. Now it's like my jowls, like, my face, like, right here. Like, right here. Okay. Like. Like on the bottom of my cheek. I feel like I look like one of those, like, sad cartoon dogs or, like, my lower gut. Like that. And that's, like, a very specific, like, aging menopause thing. So it was just a. I just feel like we're gaining weight in weird places.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah. Despite our best efforts.

[Kim Holderness]

Despite our best.

[Pen Holderness]

Sometimes even better efforts than we normally do. I think at some point, metabolism just gives you the middle finger.

[Kim Holderness]

You know, this is the laugh lines. And we'd love to hear from you. So I want to encourage you to write us at podcastheholdernessfamily.com or leave us a voicemail at 323-364-3929. And as always, at the end of the. Towards the end of the show, we have some fun segments. And today we're talking about. Are we too old for blank? And it's a fun one. Back to what we're saying. It just seems unfair that with the diminished vision and the night sweats that my jeans are fitting weird, even though the number on the scale is the same. But can I admit that it makes me feel better that you're going through it, too?

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah, you can. And I'm sorry I haven't been more outgoing about it.

[Kim Holderness]

It's your fault.

[Pen Holderness]

I've. I've tried really hard to. I. I do feel like I'm trying harder than I was in maybe my 30s and most of my 40s.

[Paige DeSorbo]

My.

[Pen Holderness]

But it. It just doesn't always matter how hard you're trying. It's just your body catches up to you. It's funny. I was watching the new Top Gun movie. The Maverick movie.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Pen Holderness]

And hold on.

[Kim Holderness]

You've watched that several times.

[Pen Holderness]

Sure. The first time I watched it on the. Thank you. Because we'll be on an airplane, and Kim will be, like, reading a book, and she'll be like, I wonder what Pen's doing. Why is it that I want to watch that movie where airplanes are shot out of the sky most frequently while I'm on an airplane?

[Kim Holderness]

You love Top Gun. Anyway, go ahead.

[Pen Holderness]

It's a great movie.

[Kim Holderness]

It is a great.

[Pen Holderness]

I apologize for nothing.

[Kim Holderness]

I always watch on an airplane. Crazy rich Asians.

[Pen Holderness]

Yes, you do.

[Kim Holderness]

And Delta was going to take that. That's like my favorite airplane movie. Delta was going to take that off.

[Pen Holderness]

Off of their sky studio or whatever.

[Kim Holderness]

Off of their thing.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

I, I wrote an email.

[Pen Holderness]

Did you really?

[Kim Holderness]

To Delta support. And I was like, ma'am, man, sir, to whom it may concern. Absolutely. No, you were. And it's still on. It is still on.

[Pen Holderness]

Do you think someone in the. There was like a customer service Reddit?

[Kim Holderness]

No, but there was like an online uprising because that's the only movie I can tolerate in the sky. Can I also admit something? Then we're going to get back on topic. Yeah, I started like, I got curious about mahjong because at the end of the movie they play mahjong.

[Pen Holderness]

Oh, the scene with the mother in law and Michelle. Yo.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes.

[Pen Holderness]

Who. Who, by the way, is on my list of GS, if you know what I mean. Actually, I don't even know if she's a grandmother, but she is a babe. I've had it for her, like, ever since Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, where she was amazing and she doesn't age at all. She's a demon.

[Kim Holderness]

A demon.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

And okay, we are going to segue into our guest because we are rethinking aging and there are people that just age better.

[Pen Holderness]

Like Michelle Yeoh.

[Kim Holderness]

Like Michelle Yeoh.

[Pen Holderness]

So here's the question as we bring in our next guest. What if everything you thought you knew about metabolism was actually wrong? In this episode, we're sitting down with Dr. Herman Pontzer. Dr. Pontzer is a professor of evolutionary anthropology and global health at Duke University. His work challenges the myths about weight loss, exercise and aging. Over two decades of research in the field and laboratory, Dr. Puntzner has conducted groundbreaking studies across a range of settings, including fieldwork with Hadza hunter gatherers in northern Tanzania.

[Kim Holderness]

He is the author of the misunderstood science of metabolism, and his latest book, available now, is how your unique body really works and why our biology unites us. Dr. Poncer's work has been covered at BBC, PBS, NPR, Scientific American, and many, many more, including laugh lines for the Holderness family. Welcome to the show, Dr. Ponser. We're excited to see you.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

I'm so happy to be here.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, first, can you tell me how do you get into this line of work that you do?

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

I have always been fascinated by human evolution and our deep past and how that sort of shapes the way our bodies, you know, work today. I think it's just such cool stuff. And so, you know, one of the obvious things to ask about any species and how it inter. Interacts with its environment and how it evolves is how it burns calories. And that might sound sort of, you know, it doesn't obviously connect, but every organism on the planet is playing the same game, which is taking energy from its environment and trying to turn it into offspring. Right. That is the game of life.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

And so if you can understand the sort of energy flow through an organism, the way that you take in calories and burn them off, you learn a lot about how that organism works. And so that applies to us too.

[Pen Holderness]

Okay. So that actually is a good starting point because we're using our energy to produce offspring. It is, it is our evolutionary need to survive as a species. So I guess now that I am like done with that. I have this fat on my back that looks like a loaf of bread that just showed up when I turned 50 and I'm not doing anything different. So let's ask the anthropologist. What does that have to do with the need to procreate the species?

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Yeah, well, you know, humans are really strange in that we have these really long lives that extend beyond our child raising years. Right. Most species, you know, they don't live a whole lot beyond when they sort of stop having offspring. And so it's been this really cool piece of human evolution is. It's, we've extended this lifespan well beyond when we stop having kids. And so, yeah, there's all the sort of aging stuff that happens with our bodies that's divorced from the metabolism and everything else that has to do with having kids.

[Kim Holderness]

Back to Penn's bread.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Yes.

[Kim Holderness]

Do you, have you noticed in evolution that people, as they age, just start gaining weight in really weird places? Is that a normal thing?

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Well, you know, it's not weird. You know, it's, it's all what, it's how our bodies are meant to work, you know, so you sort of put the fat in different places. That's sort of, that's sort of programmed. There's these fun twin studies, for example, where you. They overfeed a pair of twin siblings and where they put on the fat and how much fat they put on is sort of, you know, one twin looks like the other one. So that's kind of, that's Programmed in there exactly where your fat goes. So I wouldn't call it weird. You know, it's just, it's just you being you.

[Kim Holderness]

Does our metabolism change as we age?

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Absolutely, it does. So it goes on this sort of wild roller coaster ride. You're born into the world and your metabolism over the first year of your life shoots up like by 50%. During your first, you know, from, from birth to your first birthday, it goes up 50% higher than we'd expect for, you know, some, someone your size. So obviously you're, you're a little baby at that point, so your energy expenditure is still pretty low because you're so small. But for Your size it's 50% higher than it we'd expect it to be. And it stays really high through childhood and then it kind of becomes, slowly comes down through adolescence, teenage years, and by the time you're in your early 20s, it kind of settles out and that's your adult metabolism. And it stays there until, oh, late 50s, early 60s and around 60 years old starts to fall off again. And so, you know, we're all kind of at some point on that roller coaster ride. We're all dealing with our interesting, our own sort of individual parts of, of that ride.

[Pen Holderness]

I've heard two big words anytime I've spoken to a, like a functional doctor, anybody. The two words have been metabolism. And the second big one is inflammation. Right? How do those two things get along?

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

So metabolism is all your body's work it does all day, you know, all the time. So you have 37 trillion cells and all of them are little microscopic factories doing a big job. Right. And so that, that work that they do, all added up across all your systems is your metabolism. That's how many calories you burn every day. And so inflammation is part of your immune system. So your immune system burns calories too, because all systems do, they all have work to do. And when you have inflammation, that's, that's high. It means your immune system is sort of chronically overworking, right? It's overreacting. It's too high all the time. And that has, you know, that's not good for you. Some inflammation like when you get sick or when you get an injury, that kind of acute inflammation is a good thing. You need that response, but have it on all the time. It's like a fire alarm going off in your house all the time for no reason. It doesn't actually help. You can kind of juggle how your body spends those calories. That's one of the Cool things that we've been learning recently. If you exercise, for example, and you burn those calories with your muscles doing exercise, your body seems to respond by burning less energy on inflammation and that kind of thing. So it sort of juggles the books a bit. So you can kind of play with your metabolism that way, reducing how much it spends on inflammation.

[Kim Holderness]

I just heard you say, and I've read, I've read your work, that you say this, that your metabolism actually doesn't slow down again until you're about 60.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Yeah, so that's right.

[Kim Holderness]

I'm 49, he's 50. What the heck is happening with us if our metabolism has. Yeah, bro, that downshift.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

We're all in the same boat. Yeah, I'm 47. So, yeah, this is a big study we had out a few years ago. A lot of labs all around the world collaborated. We pulled all of our data together. We had thousands of people in this study and we were able to get this really kind of detailed look at how metabolism changes over the life course. And we really expected, I expected that we'd see this sort of fall off in middle age because that's how it feels. Absolutely. We were shocked, you know, that the data don't support that. So your metabolism, it looks like, is just holding steady all through middle age. Now, there's a few things, there's sort of a few caveats to that. One is your metabolism is directly linked to how big you are and specifically how much lean mass you carry. Right. So if you start to lose muscle mass, then you're going to notice your total calories burn is going to follow along with that. Right. So when we talk about your metabolism holding study, we're saying for a given body size, Right, because body size is a big predictor of expenditure. If you start losing muscle mass because you're, you know that you're going to notice that your calories go down. And so you could sort of then overeat because of that. And also it does just feel different. But the way you feel doesn't have a kind of a one to one correlation with your metabolism in a way that we, we often think it does.

[Pen Holderness]

All right, this is fascinating to me because you are a doctor, you understand metabolism and inflammation better than most people. Usually the next step would be for him to have a workout video and a diet plan and like, be like, it's Dr. Her, you're coming out and like you're telling people, you know what, you can do this. But what I'm hearing mostly from you is yeah, it kind of sucks.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Yeah.

[Pen Holderness]

Well, which is refreshing and probably true. Yeah.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Yeah. Refreshing probably isn't the right word though.

[Pen Holderness]

Just your honesty. I love it.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Yeah, sure. So, I mean, exercise is really good for you and it's good at all ages and we should all be probably doing more of it. But yeah, it doesn't really boost your metabolism the way we think it does. It doesn't really have a huge effect on calories burned per day because your body sort of adjusts. And in any case, you know, we have lots and lots and lots of studies that show if all you do is exercise to lose weight, you don't change your diet at all. You're not going to have a big impact on your, on your weight or how much fat you carry. So, yeah, people want to blame their metabolisms and they want to try to boost their metabolisms and sorry guys, doesn't work.

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Pen Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

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[Pen Holderness]

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[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

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[Pen Holderness]

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[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

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[Kim Holderness]

Let's go to that kind of that phrase, boost your metabolism. If I. Because I'm a 49 year old woman and Instagram and TikTok knows that they. Every other ad that they're sending me is something to boost my metabolism. Some sort of like workout or supplement or something. Can you boost your metabolism?

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

There are two sort of families of products that are sold to boost your metabolism. They fall into two categories in my mind. One category is things that don't work.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

And the other category are things that are illegal. Oh. So I don't recommend either of them. There's really no good way to do it.

[Kim Holderness]

I was like, oh my God, he does have a magic film.

[Pen Holderness]

One of them is cocaine and the.

[Kim Holderness]

Other one doesn't work.

[Pen Holderness]

Drinking a bottle of vinegar.

[Kim Holderness]

No.

[Pen Holderness]

I'm sorry, go ahead. No.

[Kim Holderness]

When he said two options, I really thought. I was like, I was like.

[Pen Holderness]

She leaned forward and then I. And I gotta tell you, that's how easy it is.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Right? You could have taken a different path. I could have taken a different.

[Pen Holderness]

You're definitely taking your own path. All right, can you explain to us the ones that don't work and the one that are illegal, please, so we know what to avoid?

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Well, basically any, you know, if you see Superfood in the advertisement, that's probably not right. If it's a supplement that is sold in a pill form and is like, you know, not sold on the dark web, probably it just isn't going to work. You know, the most, the most metabolism boosting thing you do all day if you drink a cup of coffee in the morning. Is that right? Caffeine has a tiny effect. It's transient, goes away. Your body doesn't really, you know, you're talking a few calories. It's not a big deal. Most of the, you know, pill kind of supplements you're going to take or find aren't even going to approach that.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, a few calories.

[Pen Holderness]

They're not going to approach a few calories.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Yeah, I mean, none of that's like, you know, we've done, we've looked at the evidence for different kind of, you know, these claims, none of them hold up, man. I'm sorry. But if you actually look at the data for the actual studies that look.

[Kim Holderness]

At this stuff, I think if there were, if there were a magic pill, Instagram would have told me about it all.

[Pen Holderness]

Oh, they've told you. It's just, it's, it's not working.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. In illegal drugs. Probably. As a 49 year old mom of two probably don't want to go down that road.

[Pen Holderness]

There's a, there's a great recommend. Yeah, there's a great bit with Louis CK about once you turn 40, you go to the doctor and he's like, doc, my, my ankle's messed up and, and the doc's like, yeah, well, we'll give you some Advil for that.

[Kim Holderness]

Just the way it is.

[Pen Holderness]

Well, is there not like a surgery is like. No, this is just how you and your crappy ankle are going to be until you both die?

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Yeah, Yeah. I went to the doc. I have a shoulder thing that's, that's like a chronic issue. And you know, if I sleep funny or I brush my teeth incorrectly, I'm at risk of like causing trouble. And I was talking to my doc about this, you know, he's like, do you have any complaints? I was like, well, you know, I mean, but I thought maybe I'll just mention my shoulder thing. And I don't know if that's not really been an issue before. And he goes, well, have you been. At the time. He's like, have you been 45 before? No, that's. You're right. That is new.

[Kim Holderness]

That's mean. That is mean. Okay, so you have done research to prove that our body does actually adjust. I. Ten years ago, I competed in a half ironman. Oh, wow. Yeah. Which was, you know, you're running a half marathon, and you're biking 56 miles, and you're swimming. During that training period, when I was training four or five hours a day, I gained weight. And not muscle.

[Pen Holderness]

Oh, my.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, and not muscle because. So. Because I just got up really hungry, and so. And I think my metabolism adjusted. You've done. There's actual science. Like, this is true. You just adjust to it.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

That's right. Yeah. I mean, if you start an exercise program tomorrow, let's say that you could sort of dose yourself with exercise, and you could say, I'm going to dose myself with 200 calories a day of exercise. And you could do that pretty easily. 200 calories a day would be like running two miles a day that you're not doing right now. Extra. Right. For the first few weeks. Yeah. If we were to measure, you know, before you started, and then a couple weeks in. Yep, you're burning those extra 200 calories a day, just like you expect. But what we have found is that over time, over a few weeks, maybe a few months, the timing is not exactly well known, but that's the timescale. A few weeks, few months, all the background stuff your body's doing, all the other systems sort of adjust, and they make room for that new exercise dose that you gave yourself. And so by, you know, six months in, it's not 200 calories a day extra anymore. It's something less than that. For some people, it's no different than when they started. For some people, it might be closer to the 200, but, you know, it's kind of amazing, actually.

[Pen Holderness]

Can you tell what's happening? So Kim is asking all these questions, and she's waiting to be inspired and encouraged and full of hope. And every time I look over at her, she's like, well, this is. But it's also.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Okay, here's the really good news.

[Little Bellies Ad]

Let's go.

[Pen Holderness]

Let's go. Here comes the good news.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Adjustments. All those adjustments are what are. What make exercise so healthy. They're not the only things that make exercise healthy. But by, you know, where does that extra. Where do those 200 calories come from? That your body kind of juggles and finds else you know, to sort of take away from other things. Well, they take away from inflammation or it takes away from stress free activity. So for example, great studies showing you have women who college age women with mild depressive symptoms. So they sign up for this study and for half the study they get talk therapy and for the other half of the study they get talk therapy plus jogging and just that jogging a few times a week reduces their cortisol levels like 30%, reduces their epinephrine levels, their adrenaline levels like 30%. So it has a huge effect. Right. Your body is like deciding, okay, well I'm spending energy on exercise, I'm going to spend less of it on these things that you probably shouldn't be doing anyway, like inflammations, really, really big stress response. So there's all kinds of really good things that come from that adjustment. Yeah, it just isn't necessarily going to show up on the bathroom scale.

[Kim Holderness]

And I'm joking to everybody listening. I do exercise at this point is about my mental health more than anything. I would just hope that you could like, if I did do like math wise calories and calories out like that I could expend more if I wanted to see some movement. And that's my body.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Yeah, you can for a while you can do it, you know, but it just really isn't as effective as, as we'd think. We've been trying it for decades now. We in the general scientific community sense have been trying this for decades and exercise alone is, is pretty, a pretty poor tool for weight loss.

[Pen Holderness]

I'm going to, we're going to get to some questions from our laugh line from some. Like some of them are pretty interesting. But before that I do want to tell a quick story because you were touching on stress, you were touch exercise versus other possible things as both of them lowering your cortisol level. Last night Kim and I had had, we had a rough day. We just discovered another leak in our house and we've had, we've already had to like evacuate our house from a prior leak. And so that was going on. Plus it was Monday and Monday you have like a million meetings. And so I, we texted each other at the same time and my text was, hey, I think I'm going to go on the peloton to burn off some of this Monday angst. And at the same time she texted, I think I'm going to need a vodka shot after today.

[Kim Holderness]

Two different, two different ways to handle it.

[Pen Holderness]

And I, I maintain that sometimes A vodka shot is absolutely necessary. And I think sometimes it's opposite. Like she'll go for a walk and I'll be like, man, I could really get a glass of wine.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Right?

[Pen Holderness]

But can you tell me about the role that especially as you get older, alcohol plays against your goals to do all these things?

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

There's a huge amount of calories in alcohol. So, you know, it's an easy way to sort of end up taking in a lot more calories than you think you do. And this gets to a larger point of like, well, what if I only eat proteins? Or what if I only eat fats instead of carbs? If I, if I kind of trade where I'm getting my calories from, does that affect anything? And people, you know, really often really feel it does. Like if I don't eat carbs, but I eat fats or vice versa, it's going to have this huge effect on. It really doesn't matter. Different foods will make you feel fuller or less full. So they can have bigger effects on sort of if you keep on eating or not because you feel full or don't. So alcohol, because it's so energy dense is a great way to sort of over consume calories without even knowing it because it doesn't, you know, it's such a small amount of volume, it doesn't really trigger in your brain how, how many calories you've had.

[Kim Holderness]

I did not take the shot. I know.

[Pen Holderness]

I was proud of you.

[Kim Holderness]

One of the reasons I've reduced the amount of alcohol I'm taking in is because I'm going through perimenopause. And that just like jacks me up. How does the hormonal shifts that specifically a woman goes through at this time impact metabolism?

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

This big study that we did to look at energy expenditure across the whole life course, we, we looked to see if in women we'd find a change. You know, we don't know if all the women in the study are pre or post menopause, but we know, okay, around 50 years old, we might expect to see a kind of a change. And we didn't see that. So it was really surprising for us. However, I would say that, that, you know, the big change in hormone, hormones that you're going to experience in, through menopause are going to affect things like fatigue. They're going to affect things like just generally how you feel. Of course, you could find a small effect on your metabolism that we find that's just hard to measure. But the bigger effect is probably, you know, overall how you feel how active you feel, but we don't see a big effect on. We don't see a big impact on metabolism.

[Kim Holderness]

I want to talk about your latest book. So tell us why you wanted to write this one.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Yeah. So I've been researching metabolism for a long time and finding a lot of fun, kind of surprising things about how our bodies work in terms of metabolism. And I wanted to kind of broaden that focus. I've been teaching physiology here at Duke for a long time, and I love to talk, you know, talk about the human body from all the different systems and how they all work together. And so I wrote Adaptable as a way to kind of explore that, you know, why does. Why are each of our bodies different? Right? What makes each of us different? How do our bodies work? You know, from muscles to brains to immune systems to metabolism, how do those systems work? You know, so if we can have some fluency with that, not only do we learn a lot about this amazing sort of protein robot that you're walking around in your whole life, but you also, you know, if you. If you understand how your body works, you've got a really great set of tools to use to go to the doctor and ask them about your health, to think about your lifestyle, to understand the latest headlines that you are coming out of the world of science and stuff like that. So I really wanted to share that with everybody.

[Pen Holderness]

This is a perfect time to make a move to the laugh line. That is where our viewers, our friends, send in questions. It sounds like a lot of people have had questions about their metabolism. Some of these are fun and funny. I have no idea if they're answerable, but we're just gonna dive right in and see how it goes. Is that okay?

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. And specifically, this is from our sub stack readers.

[Pen Holderness]

Okay.

[Kim Holderness]

So we specifically got these off of substack.

[Pen Holderness]

I'm gonna skip the first one because it says, is there anything for boosting the metabolism? And we know that there is, but it's either illegal or not recommended. So let's start with Violet. Violet says, why the expanding side boob of all places? Asking for a perimenopausal friend who is ofc. Also struggling with menno paunch and saddlebags.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Hi, Violet.

[Kim Holderness]

Hi, Violet.

[Pen Holderness]

Hi, Violet.

[Kim Holderness]

Let's talk about your boobs.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

So if you are putting on weight, your body's gonna find a place to park there, right? So fat is this kind of perfect place to put those extra calories. And it's a very smart evolutionary response because you don't want to Lose them. Right. You want to have them available in case things go bad in the future. That's what fat's all about is this, this reserve fuel tank. So it's a very smart thing your body's doing, Violet. Why exactly there where you park your fat is your genetics are going to be responsible for that. So you can thank your parents, I suppose. I don't know specifically why that part of your body, but I wish I could tell you more.

[Kim Holderness]

I will say on behalf of Violet, I do think as now that I'm 49, it my, if I gain weight, it's in strange places. Like in places it wouldn't go when I was 20. I think my, the fat has forgotten how to go to certain places and it's now like in my face and my stomach.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

The difference between, you know, the classic female body shape and where fat goes and the classic male body shape and where fat goes, those are going to be influenced by hormones. Right. And through menopause, it's a big change in the hormone profile. It's a big reduction in the kind of classic female hormones, estrogen and progesterone. And so that could be why you're seeing a change in where the fat goes through that, that transition.

[Kim Holderness]

Thanks. Hormones. That's awesome. Becky asked, is there anything we can do to target these weird places looking at you, saddlebags and low belly, low belly pouch or as best we can hope to manage overall weight and strength. So let's go to the target. Could you target just one place to lose weight?

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Not really. It doesn't work that way. Your body's drawing from all of its fat reserves kind of, you know, pretty equally. So I don't think that that's going to work super well. Like, you know, sit ups to help your flatten your stomach. Sit ups will help get your abdominal muscles stronger. Right. So you kind of get a stronger background there. But it's not going to just target your belly fat, for example. So. Yeah, sorry.

[Kim Holderness]

Such a bummer.

[Pen Holderness]

There is no one out here like this guy who just says, nope, I know it.

[Kim Holderness]

No, but it's so good.

[Pen Holderness]

I love it. It's making me feel like just like we're all in this together. I don't know why I'm more inspired and happy now knowing that there's just not as much that you can do as I thought that there was that you can do.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Yeah. Well, you know, I'm going to start selling supplements soon.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. I think.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

And then it'll all change and I'll have different answers.

[Pen Holderness]

Okay. Jeff's our last. I've experienced this too. Why is it that cardio is enough? When you're younger but seemingly at 40, a switch flips and you've got to start lifting weights.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Ah, that's a good one. So there is a kind of fall off for men in testosterone levels as you age. Right. And testosterone levels are going to be part of the muscle building response. Right. Testosterone is an anabolic, we call it an anabolic hormone. Anabolic means it builds things. And so when, you know, when professional athletes cheat, what hormone do they use? They use a testosterone mimic because that helps build muscle. And so as your testosterone levels sort of fade out a little bit, come down a bit through middle age, that's normal. But what you're going to find is that your responsive, the muscle building response to exercise is going to change. And so you're going to. That would be why you might have to change to more resistance, weightlifting kind of exercise, which is more targeted at building muscle. Whereas before it was enough to do the cardio stuff, which is still, you know, stressing your muscle. It might get you to build muscle just from that, but won't be as big of an impact as if you're lifting weights.

[Kim Holderness]

Before we wrap up, I just have to ask for, for the frustrated person listening who's like, you're telling me that my metabolism, my metabolism isn't actually wonky yet. I'm only 45. It feels like this is, what can somebody do if they want to lose some weight?

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Okay, so the best tool you have to try to manage your weight is your diet. And here's the good news. All the evangelists trying to sell you one particular diet or telling you that you're doing it wrong if you're eating this food or that food. That's not true. We are evolved to eat a wide variety of foods and cultures all over the world and all through time have done really well and stayed really healthy on pretty much any combination of foods you can imagine. The trick is, can you find a diet that you enjoy that fills you up on fewer calories and that puts your weight in a good place without feeling like a chore? Because if it feels like a chore, you won't do it. Yeah, right. So this is easier said than done. I'm not saying it's easy, but there are a couple places we know to start. We know the ultra processed foods make it really hard to, you know, to kind of regulate how much you're eating. So try to, to not do that. Try to go to whole Foods as much as you can. Not whole foods at the store, but try to eat whole foods. Unprocessed foods as much as you can. High protein foods tend to make people feel full on fewer calories. High fiber foods tend to make people feel full on fewer calories. And so there are kind of obvious places to start, I suppose in that sense. But really you should shop around diet wise until you find the foods that help you out. I'm a big believer that humans have terrible willpower in general. I'm just using as myself an example. And so I think keeping the foods that, you know, will, you'll overeat. Keeping them out of your house, you know, we can't keep them out of the store. That's above our. We can't control that. But we keep them out of our house. So do that. And that's, you know, that's my suggestion on how to start.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, I'm sorry, I know I said I had last question. This is one more question because you've studied these hunter or gathered hunter, gatherer tribes.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

Do these tribes, does anybody ever become overweight?

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

It's so rare that when we see it, we like, you know, it makes our notes.

[Kim Holderness]

Wow.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

And often there's a story there about, you know, some other issue that that person had. But typically, no, we don't, we don't see it. People. Obesity really is a modern problem.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, right.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Our grandparents and our great grandparents really didn't have this issue. And cultures all over the world that haven't gone through the industrial, you know, process and had their food systems completely changed, industrialized, they don't have this issue. So it really is a problem that we've kind of created for ourselves. And so maybe we can, we can uncreate it. Wouldn't that be nice? But in the meantime, you know, it's kind of up to us to figure out how to navigate. Navigate this strange world we've built for ourselves.

[Pen Holderness]

To learn more about Dr. Poncer and his work, you can check the links in our show notes and you can get his new book adaptable wherever books are sold. Dr. Poncer, that this was so fun. Surprisingly fun.

[Kim Holderness]

Surprisingly.

[Pen Holderness]

I know about metabolism.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

I get that a lot. That is surprisingly fun.

[Pen Holderness]

Do people.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

That's good. I appreciate it.

[Pen Holderness]

Do people always tell you that they love your, your honest takes on these things? Because it really is nice in this space in particular.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Yeah. I think people do find it refreshing, the people trying to sell the supplements and stuff. Don't love it so much. That's okay.

[Kim Holderness]

As we navigate this aging process count on a repeat phone call. And because you're just down the street, we might even make you come in studio here. So this was amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And thank you for your time.

[Dr. Herman Pontzer]

Thank you.

[Kim Holderness]

I don't think I've ever heard you more excited after an interview with a guest.

[Pen Holderness]

He just told us the way it was. You know what I mean? Like, I needed to hear that. Supplements can be a little bit overwhelming. We have quite a few in our house and I know most of them are like, look, the fish oil stuff all day.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes.

[Pen Holderness]

That's. That's for brain health. The lion's mane, that down.

[Kim Holderness]

That's a new one.

[Pen Holderness]

You've added down. To me just hearing like, look, this is. We're all in this together. It's tough. Items are going to shift during flight.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Pen Holderness]

Eat smart workout.

[Kim Holderness]

I have to say, I was. I do blame a lot on perimenopause, but I. When I gain weight, it's because I've been eating more.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

I have been eating.

[Pen Holderness]

I have been eating more. Yes.

[Kim Holderness]

So as is our habit here, our habit of two episodes, we have some fun segments.

[Pen Holderness]

It's time for our weekly. Are we too old for this is our music. Where we can sound cranky and say, I don't think that we're gonna do this anymore because we're too old for it. So this week's question.

[Kim Holderness]

Are we too old for all inclusive resorts? I think yes. Here's my argument.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah. Go.

[Kim Holderness]

Our good friend and producer Anne Marie Tapke just celebrated her big birthday. She had a big birthday and I think she. So she went to an amazing all inclusive resort in another country and I said, wow, that looks like fun. Not me. Can't do it. Because you feel like you have to drink all the drinks.

[Pen Holderness]

Bam.

[Kim Holderness]

And you feel like you have to eat all the food. At least I do.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

Because I'm like, if I'm gonna get my money's worth.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

Like that. So I can't do that.

[Pen Holderness]

When I go to an all inclusive resort, my mindset is they're not gonna make any money off of me.

[Kim Holderness]

I'm gonna show them.

[Pen Holderness]

They're. I'm gonna show them. And of course they know how to.

[Kim Holderness]

I do.

[Pen Holderness]

They know how to make money off. There is. There is no all inclusive resort that, like all of the food that you eat. They don't put like sushi out there all the time.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Pen Holderness]

And you can only have so many pina coladas before you're vomiting.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Pen Holderness]

So.

[Kim Holderness]

But I would just feel like I'm going to drink three sips and order another and order like. It's just gluttony for me personally, and I know they make sense for the younger people. But this segment also wants me. It's inspired me to think about, are we too young? What things are we too young for?

[Pen Holderness]

I think the only thing left are adult diapers. And then you told me a story about how you actually used one recently.

[Kim Holderness]

So Penn went out of town. He was out of town for something. The kids were much younger. This was maybe like six years ago. I decided I was going to be a fun mom for the weekend. So I took them to one of those trampoline jumpy parks, and I wanted to jump on the trampoline. But what happens with a mother of two before pelvic floor therapy is you pee a little when you jump on a trampoline. So I bought a huge, like, poise pad.

[Pen Holderness]

It was a pad.

[Kim Holderness]

It was a pad. Okay. It wasn't quite underwear, but it looked like a paddle board. It was that big. It was as big as a paddle board. And I just stuck it in there and I jumped for like an hour.

[Pen Holderness]

Had a good time.

[Kim Holderness]

Had a great time. And after I just immediately got off the trampoline, went right to the bathroom, I took it off. I like, wrapped it up in paper and I dropped it into. Into the trash. And it went like. It was.

[Pen Holderness]

Sorry, what did it go like? Oh, my gosh. So you are the real one for having children.

[Kim Holderness]

Because I know that I've done pelvic.

[Pen Holderness]

Floor floor therapy, and it's not a thing anymore.

[Kim Holderness]

It's. It's less of a thing. I don't think I could handle, like a full trampoline class. Yeah. I would just have to be really dehydrated.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah. Okay. But so thanks to pelvic floor therapy, we are too young for adult diapers.

[Kim Holderness]

For adults.

[Pen Holderness]

For now.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. But.

[Pen Holderness]

But when they get here, we're gonna lean in.

[Kim Holderness]

Not sponsored, but pelvic floor therapy.

[Pen Holderness]

Oh, yeah. Oh, this is the non sponsored music. It's the mall shopping music. Okay, it's time for hashtag not sponsored with Kim. Kim telling you something that she really likes. We are not getting paid in any form or fashion. There is no compensation here. This is just Kim liking something. So we're not selling anything. Go, Kim. You're safe.

[Kim Holderness]

Not sponsored pelvic floor therapy.

[Pen Holderness]

Yes.

[Kim Holderness]

And everybody wants to know what it is. And first of all, a lovely woman. I would only go to a woman personally, but it Was a little weird because insurance covered it. So you're in a physical therapy office, which is just like big and like it's wide open if you've ever had this physical therapy. But there was like a little office you could tell they made.

[Pen Holderness]

It's just for pelvic floor therapy.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes. So you. They do an internal exam and then they give you pause.

[Pen Holderness]

Like, what is that? Is that. So they.

[Kim Holderness]

She puts her hand inside of you.

[Pen Holderness]

Okay. And just checks it. Checks how your pelvis and your pelvic floor is doing.

[Kim Holderness]

Correct.

[Pen Holderness]

Got it. Okay, gotcha.

[Kim Holderness]

And then teaches you these exercises. And then you're literally on. There's different ways to do it, but there's on the table, you're standing, but it's like, hold for 1, 2, 3, 4, relax. And then she gives you like a handout and you do exercises every day. But because they're internal, my workouts looked like this.

[Pen Holderness]

Is it like Kegels?

[Kim Holderness]

Yes, it's Kegels.

[Pen Holderness]

So it's Kegels.

[Kim Holderness]

But. But you're holding. There's different ways. You're breathing.

[Pen Holderness]

Okay.

[Kim Holderness]

And then. So I went there for like six weeks.

[Pen Holderness]

Right. I remember that.

[Kim Holderness]

And then at the end of it was run two miles on the treadmill. Because one of my goals was be able to run without Right. Paying myself. And I did. Thank you so much for tuning into Laugh Lines. Thanks. For those of you who are watching on YouTube and then listening to all the normal podcast places, we really appreciate you and as always, give us a shout to be on the laugh lines.

[Pen Holderness]

Laugh Lines is written and produced by Pen Holderness, Kim Holderness and Ann Marie Tapke with original music by Pen Holderness. It is filmed, edited and live produced by Sam Allen, audio engineered by Max Trujillo, and hosted by acast. As always, we love to hear from you. As Kim said, please write to [e-mail] or you can leave a voicemail anytime. Whatever's on your line, on your mind, or if we tell you something to tell us about, then you do that. This is not part of the announcement. I'm just free balling it or I'm just freestyling it and it's not. Leave a voicemail at 323-364-3929 and we will talk to you soon on the laugh line. I am 0 for 2 on closing. These are harder than I thought they would be.

[Kim Holderness]

Thank you so much. Love you. Bye.

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Is Paige, the co host of Giggly Squad. I use Uber Eats for everything and I feel like people forget that you can truly order anything, especially living in New York City. It's why I love it. You can get Chinese food at any time of night, but it's not just for food. I order from CVS all the time. I'm always ordering from the grocery store. If a friend stops over, I have to order champagne. I also have this thing that whenever I travel, if I'm ever in a hotel room, I never feel like I'm missing something because I'll just Uber Eats it. The amount of times I've had to Uber eats hair items like hairspray, deodorant, you name it, I've ordered it. On Uber Eats. You can get grocery alcohol everyday essentials in addition to restaurants and food you love. So in other words, get almost anything with Uber Eats. Order now for alcohol you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details.