Make Sleep Suck Less with Dr. Chris Allen

Summary

Laugh Lines with Kim & Penn Holderness

Episode: “Make Sleep Suck Less with Dr. Chris Allen”
Date: March 17, 2026
Guest: Dr. Christopher Allen (Double board-certified physician in sleep medicine and pediatric neurology)

Episode Overview

This episode of Laugh Lines dives deep into the challenges of sleep—how and why sleep gets harder as we age, the science behind quality rest, the ADHD-sleep connection, and why “making sleep suck less” is both a personal quest and a public good. Hosts Kim and Penn Holderness mix their signature humor and personal anecdotes with expert advice from sleep specialist Dr. Christopher Allen, field listener questions about ADHD and sleep, and even challenge their own nightly routines for the sake of better sleep.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sleep Struggles with Age

• Kim & Penn’s Sleep Stories:

  • Kim jokes about having "FOAMS"—Fear Of Missing Sleep—instead of FOMO.

    “I don’t have FOMO. I have FOAMS. I have a fear of missing sleep.” (Kim, 03:55)

  • Penn talks about hydration habits and frequent nighttime bathroom trips, connecting them humorously to aging concerns.

• Expert Insight:

  • Dr. Allen explains sleep architecture changes as we age—less deep sleep, more sensitivity to stressors, hormonal changes, and greater likelihood of fragmented sleep.

    "Your deep sleep is slowly declining with age. Now, just because it’s declining, you still get the same percentage wise, but it’s a small difference. ... You have to be intentional with your sleep now." (Dr. Allen, 16:19)

2. The Science of Sleep: Process S and Process C

• Explaining Sleep Regulation:

  • Dr. Allen introduces the twin processes driving sleep.
    • Process S: Sleep drive—akin to feeling hungry for sleep, regulated by a chemical called adenosine (which caffeine blocks).
    • Process C: Circadian rhythm—your internal body clock, primarily managed by melatonin.

    “There are two reasons why you sleep... Process S ... it’s like hunger for sleep... Then, the other one is process C, circadian rhythm.” (Dr. Allen, 17:26)

• Melatonin Myths:

  • Melatonin is a timing signal, not a sedative.

    “Melatonin is a signal, not a solution... People take the wrong dose at the wrong time.” (Dr. Allen, 22:49)

  • Correct dosage: 1mg–5mg, taken two hours before bedtime, not the higher doses commonly found on store shelves.

3. Good Sleep Hygiene

• Bed is Sacred Space:

  • Limit the bed to three S’s: Sleep, Sickness, (Sex)

    “Here’s the thing about the bed. It’s only for three things, and they start with the letter S. If you’re sick, if you’re sleeping, sandwiches—no, you know what that third is.” (Dr. Allen, 28:32)

  • Avoid screens, reading, or eating in bed if you’re struggling with sleep maintenance.
  • If awake for more than 20 minutes, get out of bed and do something boring (“serve the next night”).

• Keeping Your Routine:

  • Having a winding down process, like a plane "gliding for landing"—start screen-reduction and relaxing tasks at least two hours before bed, especially important for those with ADHD (39:21).

4. Listener Call-Ins & The ADHD Sleep Connection

• Music and Focus for ADHD:
  • Music as a background aid helps some, but not all, ADHD folks—highly individual (08:50).
• ADHD and Natural Sleep Cycles:
  • Kim shares therapist insight about ADHD “hunter” brains benefitting from split sleep cycles; Dr. Allen confirms neurodivergent individuals often require more intentional routines.
• ADHD & Sleep Disorders:
  • 30% of people with ADHD may have an underlying sleep disorder like sleep apnea. Sleep disorders can mimic or worsen ADHD symptoms (42:11).

5. When to See a Sleep Doctor & Debunking Sleep Myths

• When to Seek Help:

  • If you’re not refreshed after seven to nine hours or require frequent supplements, talk to a sleep doctor.

• Commonly Asked About Remedies:

  • Melatonin: Only as a timing tool, ideally under professional guidance.
  • Mouth Tape: Can be dangerous—use only after sleep study; body's need to open mouth at night signals an issue (49:29).
  • Weighted Blankets & White Noise: Comforting, helpful for restless leg syndrome or winding down, not harmful (51:04; 51:09).
  • Temperature: Ideal sleep temperature is 65–67°F (51:19).

    “You want your room temperature anywhere from like 65 to 67 degrees.” (Dr. Allen, 51:48)

  • Separate Sleeping (“Sleep Divorce”): Sometimes recommended for the sake of quality sleep, but first try to address underlying issues (53:23).

• Sleep Study Experiences:

  • Dr. Allen normalizes the process and shares his own CPAP journey ("Not only am I your doctor, I have obstructive sleep apnea..." 34:53)
  • CPAP is one of many apnea treatments—mouthpieces, myofunctional therapy, surgery, and obesity medications are options (37:38).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Sleep is up there. You always joke that you don’t have a fear of missing out... I have a fear of missing sleep.” —Kim (03:55)
• “When you’re younger... your body’s pretty much a sleep machine. ... The older you get... the architecture of your sleep, it’s changing.” —Dr. Allen (16:19)
• “Melatonin is a signal, not a solution.” —Dr. Allen (22:49)
• “Treat your sleep like you treat your phone battery—don’t wake up at 40%.” —Dr. Allen (24:59)
• “If your side of your bed is messy, there’s a chance that your sleep might be messy too.” —Dr. Allen (39:55)
• “You want the bed to be three things—quiet, dark, and cool.” —Dr. Allen (51:24)
• Humorous banter about "the three S's" for bed use (sleep, sex, and jokingly, "sandwiches")
• Kim's “favorite thing to get in bed and read”—struggling with Dr. Allen’s advice to reserve the bed just for sleep (31:17–31:39)
• Penn’s running joke about “sleep divorce” and the household temperature wars (52:01)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |:----------:|---------------------------------------------| | 02:13 | Kim’s “FOAMS” (Fear Of Missing Sleep) joke | | 16:19 | Why sleep gets harder with age | | 17:26 | Process S (sleep drive) & Process C (circadian rhythm) explained | | 22:49 | Melatonin: misconceptions and best use | | 28:32 | The “three S’s” of bed use | | 31:17–31:39| Kim and Penn debate reading/scrolling in bed vs. Dr. Allen’s advice | | 39:10 | ADHD, neurodiversity, and making sleep intentional | | 42:11 | ADHD in teens and sleep apnea—red flags | | 49:29 | Trending TikTok sleep solutions (mouth tape, etc.) rapid-fire round | | 51:48 | Ideal sleep temperature | | 53:33 | When to consider “sleep divorce” |

---

Actionable Takeaways

• Be intentional with bedtime: Prep your body and mind for sleep at least two hours before.
• Reserve bed for sleep (and, yes, sex): Keep screens, snacks, and extended reading elsewhere, especially if sleep problems develop.
• Get out of bed if you can’t sleep: Don’t let frustration stew in the sheets—move, journal, return when truly sleepy.
• Address sleep issues early: See a sleep specialist for persistent problems, especially if supplemented routines or gadgets aren’t working.
• ADHD and sleep: Co-occurring sleep disorders are common; treat sleep for better focus and mood.
• If your child with ADHD is impossible to wake, evaluate for sleep disorders.
• Don’t self-treat suspected apnea with mouth tape or high-dose melatonin—get a sleep study first.
• Temperature, Darkness, and Quiet: Optimize these for your sleeping space.

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Where to Find Dr. Chris Allen

• TikTok/Instagram/Facebook: @sleepdrchris
• Website: sleepdrchris.com
• Book: “Sweet Dreams”—Children’s book guide to healthy sleep.

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Closing Thoughts

The episode skillfully blends expert sleep advice with the candid, hilarious, and highly relatable Holderness banter. From “FOAMS” to the “sandwiches” in the three S's, from ADHD “hunter brains” to mouth tape myths, this hour is packed with actionable tips, transparency about the hosts’ own sleep roadblocks, and encouragement to make sleep a real priority at any age.

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Listen if you:

• Struggle with falling/staying asleep
• Have ADHD (or care for someone who does)
• Wonder if you (or your partner) might need a sleep study
• Want science-backed, practical, and funny takes on aging and wellness

Notable quote for the fridge:

“Treat your sleep like you treat your phone battery—don’t wake up at 40%.” —Dr. Chris Allen (24:59)

Transcript

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, when I signed up as a new VIP with Fabletics, I got $29 denim, which is kind of unheard of for this quality. From what I understand, this is launched pricing so I would grab it while it's still at that rate.

[Kim Holderness]

I love that they offer three stretch levels because everyone wants something different. Whether you love the classics or trend pieces, you are covered.

[Penn Holderness]

I ordered the Santa Cruz Slim Fit jeans and I've been reaching for them non stop. What surprised me the most is how comfortable they are.

[Kim Holderness]

Fabletics already has incredible deals and I've got an exclusive offer just for our listeners. Get $29 Denim. When you sign up as a VIP,

[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

You always joke that you don't have a fear of missing out.

[Kim Holderness]

I don't have fomo. I have fonts. I have a fear of missing sleep.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

The bedroom and the bed more specifically is only for three things and they start with the letter S if you're sick. If you're sleeping, sandwiches.

[Kim Holderness]

I don't know a ton about sleep apnea. Why did I just think it was something that old men got? I. Could a 17 year old really have sleep apnea?

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Yes.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, we get older every day.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Got more wrinkles.

[Kim Holderness]

That's okay.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Yeah, we're laughing. When we age, life is like a comedy stage. And that's why we got dead.

[Kim Holderness]

Hey, everybody, I'm Kim Holderness.

[Penn Holderness]

And I'm Penn Holderness. Thank you so much for joining us on Laugh Lines.

[Kim Holderness]

If you woke up this morning and you high five yourself because you didn't wake up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom, you're home. We are your people.

[Penn Holderness]

I do get excited when I make it through the night. And I don't know that I have, like an enlarged prostate, but I definitely forget to hydrate during the day. So at night I'm like, well, I better do it now. And I'm not sure that's how you're supposed to do it.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, this kind of fits in with today's podcast because we are on my favorite top, which is sleep.

[Penn Holderness]

Yes.

[Kim Holderness]

And I joke about this, but it is very true. I need, like, a tranq dart to sleep.

[Penn Holderness]

That is true. Also true is on your, like, list of values, of things that are important to you in life, like a great time.

[Kim Holderness]

That is how you sleep.

[Penn Holderness]

Happy family relationships. I'm joking, but sleep is up there. You always joke that you don't have a fear of missing out.

[Kim Holderness]

I don't have fomo. I have foams. I have a fear of missing sleep. I get a little anxious if there's a school night event at, like, say, 8 o'. Clock. I don't know the last time I attended an event that started at 8 o' clock on a school night.

[Penn Holderness]

I've been proud of you because we, we have young people who are friends of ours who'll be like, hey, you want to go to dinner at 8 o'? Clock?

[Kim Holderness]

No.

[Penn Holderness]

You just say no.

[Kim Holderness]

I do realize somebody said this is an actual sign of cognitive decline. Like, the more you want to stay home.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

What?

[Penn Holderness]

Where's that science?

[Kim Holderness]

Well, I will say this. There is no place that I am the happiest when I'm in my bed. I get in my bed and I open a book and it just.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

You do.

[Penn Holderness]

You kind of do a little shimmy.

[Kim Holderness]

I'm like, I'm here. Yeah, like there. I'm like, well, if that's a sign, here we go.

[Penn Holderness]

I'm just thinking of, like, listen, everything is a sign of cognitive decline. Now, trust me, I'M like, pretty well steeped in cognitive decline because both of my parents have or had Alzheimer's. If you, like, like to stay in when you're older and you generally have cognitive decline when you're older, that's all they're doing.

[Kim Holderness]

I think what they're saying is you are foregoing social opportunities, and that can lead to cognitive decline.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. Okay. But that's like. So staying home at night is different from staying home just during the day. And you go out during the day.

[Kim Holderness]

I do.

[Penn Holderness]

You just do a little sundowning at night.

[Kim Holderness]

And he can make the joke because he parents that have Sundance.

[Penn Holderness]

That's right.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. Anne Marie, our producer came up with a little fun game. Okay. We have made several songs. You. You do not have the answers.

[Penn Holderness]

Is this why you gave me an Epstein file that was basically redacted?

[Kim Holderness]

Like Sam redacted your outline?

[Penn Holderness]

My. For those of you not on YouTube, my script has a bunch of sharpie pens through it, so I can't read it. I don't know what's going on.

[Kim Holderness]

We have produced several songs about sleep, Pennsylvania. There are five popular ones listed here. Can you name them? Sorry, that we've produced that we produce, like, parodies.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. Mom's got farms.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes. That's an original.

[Penn Holderness]

So many of us have fomo, but have you ever heard of farms? It's the fear of missing sleep. You know who has that Mom's got?

[Kim Holderness]

I have zero recollection.

[Penn Holderness]

Is the word sleep in any of them?

[Kim Holderness]

Yes.

[Penn Holderness]

What rhymes with sleep? This is fun.

[Kim Holderness]

To help you out, I'm going to give you the original artist.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay.

[Kim Holderness]

Adele.

[Penn Holderness]

We did jello instead of hello. We did Frying in the deep for a turkey by Adele.

[Kim Holderness]

We did another Adele song, pillows on the other side. I don't remember that.

[Penn Holderness]

I never did that song. That is made up.

[Kim Holderness]

Should we. And put the clip in pillow?

[Penn Holderness]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Yes.

[Penn Holderness]

She used to have just wow.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

For a while there.

[Kim Holderness]

She.

[Penn Holderness]

Complete blackout on remembering this. That was a full production.

[Kim Holderness]

That was a full production. Okay, next one. It's a Hamilton parody and it's been more recent.

[Penn Holderness]

Oh, you'll need naps.

[Kim Holderness]

You'll need naps.

[Penn Holderness]

You'll need naps. That's. I guess that is about sleep. You need naps. You will see. You will have a lot less energy.

[Kim Holderness]

This is an Erasure parody.

[Penn Holderness]

Oh, baby, please give a little more time. I tried to discover. We shot it. We shot it at a theater. Give a little more rest.

[Kim Holderness]

And then ability sleeping by yourself. Yes.

[Penn Holderness]

That was where we talk about how you get really excited when I'm not in the, in the bed with you.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, that's a good one.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Nobody touching the feet, nobody stealing the

[Penn Holderness]

sheets because she sleep.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, we have an amazing doctor on the show today, but before we get to him, let's go to the Laugh line.

[Penn Holderness]

Call us up and you tell us what's on your mind.

[Kim Holderness]

Hi, this is Karen from Canada. I'm a 44 year old mom with ADHD and I have a 13 year old son with ADHD as well. And we both love music, as do you guys.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

And I'm wondering if you know or if you can ask an expert sometime on your podcast if listening to music

[Kim Holderness]

while you are working or studying is

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

actually effective, especially for an adhd.

[Kim Holderness]

My OCD is taken a hold and so I'm like knee deep in research on adhd and it is for some folks with adhd, some folks to have background music study music on it is helpful. That's why they actually recommend. Like my daughter for example, studies better in a busy coffee shop. She needs that sort of background noise.

[Penn Holderness]

Karen, this is not a, probably a satisfactory answer, but every ADHD is different. It's like, it's like a snowflake. Everything you said is right. If the. But here's the simplest way I think to describe it. If the music is. Is truly seen as a background that drowns out other things that might be bothering them, then that's good. If you're a musician like me and you start parsing out patterns.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

And listening to chords and it takes you away from that, then it's not okay.

[Kim Holderness]

Our next is Claire from North Carolina.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Hi, my name is Claire and I

[Kim Holderness]

live in Cary, North Carolina.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

And I have a question about ADHD and sleep disorders. How can we get my teen son

[Kim Holderness]

to wake up timely on his own and consistently?

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

He sleeps so deeply that three alarms set 30 minutes apart and across the bedroom. Do not wake him.

[Kim Holderness]

That is a very good question. We're going to ask our doctor. But may I share what I just learned in therapy today?

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Yes.

[Kim Holderness]

The ADHD brain does best when there's like two sleep cycles. So going to bed late and then there is a natural wake up and then sleep and then sleeping later. And there's a book I have to buy and read and it's called like, like the Hunter in a Farmer's World or something. Because think about it, like the hunter gatherers had to be like very alert and those were like the ADHD people. They had to be very alert but then could, when they could Rest. They could rest and the farmer had to be like up early. Let's ask that question to our doctor.

[Penn Holderness]

It's making me think like, okay, so the fact that I do have to get up and pee at 2am Every evening might be working out for me because that's two sleep cycles.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. We are going to ask that question to our Dr. Allen, Dr. Christopher Allen. But first, I want to thank everybody. A few podcasts ago, I kind of came clean and talked about my official ADHD diagnosis that happened in September of last year. It's just taken me a while to sort of process what that meant. And you all sent such lovely words of encouragement. 99% of you did. And I really, I'm deeply grateful for those and I'm trying to work through those. Right now I'm deleting the ones that say that it's not ADHD and that it's just because I eat too much sugar. So I'm deleting that why it's, that's so harmful to people. Like if they, if they are reluctant, they have a diagnosis. We can talk about this in another time.

[Penn Holderness]

No, no, you can talk about it now. I mean, this, I've been feeling what you're feeling for 20 years. You're, I think as someone who actually has it now, I bet it feels different hearing that now because I've been hearing that for a long time.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh, can I tell you something else my therapist said today? I had a good therapy session, you guys. I, I told her how deflating and hurtful it felt when actual therapists who don't know me and have never done screenings with me and only see what they see on, they're like, no, pretty sure you just have anxiety and ocd, which is not wrong. I probably have those. But they were, they were claiming like, ah, no, you, you don't fit this adhd. And my therapist responded with, do they think there's only a certain number of ADHD tickets they hand out? Like their kid can't get an ADHD ticket if you have one. That is the perfect way to describe it. And honestly, even myself, like, not wanting to dilute the diagnosis, that's what it is. Like, I don't want other people to not get the, the resources they need because they see me as a high functioning person. So there's a lot of ADHD tickets if you need them.

[Penn Holderness]

Guys, we've been getting these comments for about 10 years since we've been putting out ADHD content. Like it's not real. Like this isn't A thing. Does it feel different reading that now that you're a part of the club?

[Kim Holderness]

I was always deeply offended by that.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay.

[Kim Holderness]

Because I see it up close in real time. But listen, I. There are, you know, mental health disorders that I, you know, people in my life. I could look back now and, and say, oh, that friend who I loved so dearly was probably on the autism spectrum. So, like, there are, looking back, there's names for what we were like, oh, he's just a little weird. You know, like we would. He just collects airplanes. He collects a lot of airplanes. But that's his thing, you know, I

[Penn Holderness]

love, I would love it if just we. Honestly, we've been looking for a way to rename ADHD a little weird.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Just a little weird.

[Kim Holderness]

But that, I mean, that's. My grandparents would be like, oh, of course we.

[Penn Holderness]

It's. Honestly, it's more accurate than the crappy name it is now. Spell it. L I L W E E R D. Little weird.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. Should we get to our amazing guest?

[Penn Holderness]

Sure.

[Kim Holderness]

Dr. Christopher Allen is a double board certified physician in sleep medicine and pediatric neurology with 20 years in the medical field. He specializes in diagnosing and treating sleep disorders such as sleep apnea, insomnia and restless leg syndrome. After struggling with undiagnosed sleep issues as a child, he was diagnosed during his medical residency and that experience transformed his health and shaped his calling.

[Penn Holderness]

Today, Dr. Chris serves as the founder of Quality sleep and neurology. He educates a broad social media audience and partners with organizations to elevate sleep health awareness. He's also the author of Social Media Sweet Dreams, which is a children's book inspired by his journey that helps families understand healthy sleep habits with warmth and hope.

[Kim Holderness]

Welcome to the show, sleep doctor Chris.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Hey, guys, look, first of all, thank you for having me. Love to be here. Love to be here. I'm glad that I'm here.

[Penn Holderness]

We're glad that you're here. So I, I wonder if sometimes when you talk to people about sleep, if it ends up becoming a little bit of a relationship conversation as well.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Oh, all the time. It's funny. There's two things. When I talk about sleep, I kind of feel like a priest because it holds me accountable. Because as soon as I say I'm a sleep doctor, they just start talking about their sleep. Yes, I get all the details. And then it's funny when you talk about, like relationships, it, it goes into that because not only will they talk about their sleep, if you talk about their bed partner sleep all the time, and it's funny, in my office, I always tell people the first two words I hear the most in my practice is my wife or my spouse, my girlfriend. And it's like, well, my wife says I snore. And so I hear all of that.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. Well, I am so glad you're here. And listen, we. We try to make sure this podcast is entertaining and brings useful information to our audience, but secretly, it's. It's therapy for me. Okay, so, like, whatever.

[Penn Holderness]

He charges by the hour.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes. We're just writing it off here. Okay.

[Penn Holderness]

I know.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

I was like, I see what you did.

[Kim Holderness]

So I. I know a lot of our audience is our age. They're our age. In our 20s, we could have slept, you know, like, on a concrete slab. Right. And just woken up just, like, purely refreshed. Now, I. I mean, there's a lot going on with perimenopause and all this stuff. What happened? What. Why can I. I haven't been able to sleep in two decades.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Honestly, when you're younger and you're your 20s, like, your body's pretty much a sleep machine, like, your hormones are stable, your stress is lower, or whatever you think stress is. It's not the stress that you get in your later years or in your 40s, and your circadian rhythm is strong. Honestly, the older you get up, like, the architecture of your sleep, it's changing. Like, you know, everyone, one thing I love, they have, like, these, like, you know, wearable devices or rings that tell you how you sleep. And honestly, they're really good, but it makes you start that conversation. And that architecture of your sleep is changing. Like, your deep sleep is slowly declining with age. Now, just because it's declining, you still get the same percentage wise, but it's a small difference. And then your nervous system becomes more reactive. So that's what's happening now compared to then. And like you said, you could just sleep on the concrete and be okay, but now you have to be intentional with your sleep now.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, Every time someone says circadian rhythm, I nod my head like, oh, yeah. Circadian rhythm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know what the hell it is. I don't know what it is.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

And I'm glad. I'm glad you mentioned that, because, honestly, there's two reasons why you sleep. There are two processes. There's a process C and a process S. The process C is circadian rhythm, which we'll get into, but there's a process S, and the S is like sleep drive. It's like your hunger for Sleep. So pretty much when you stay up later, your body gets hungry for sleep. So if you don't go to bed and you're like, I need to go to bed. I need to go to bed now. It's kind of like, you know, being hangry for sleep. And so that's your process S. And this is me putting my nerd cap hat on. There's something that's called, like, adenosine, and it's something you build in your body and that gets higher and higher and higher. And that's your body saying, like, look, I need to go to sleep. And sometimes we have this drink that we drink sometimes in the morning or in the evening or late at night if you want to stay up, that blocks adenosine, which is known as caffeine. So that's how caffeine works. It blocks that. But the thing is, it just blocks it. But as soon as it wears off, that rush comes back and you're tired. And so that's that one process. It's called, like, process S, then the other one is process C. Where is that circadian rhythm? And pretty much it's just your sleep rhythm and your body clock. So when you go to bed and when you wake up, that's what dictates it, that circadian rhythm.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

And it's based off of something that's called it. I'm going to say this word. Everyone knows the word, but they don't know how it works. Sometimes melatonin, everyone's like, yeah, I tried that. And honestly, this is my public service announcements on melatonin. Melatonin, like, it can work, but a lot of people take the wrong dose

[Penn Holderness]

at the wrong time, which is not in rhythm.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And what melatonin does, it's not a sedative. It's a signal. And there's a signal in your body. You already make melatonin, and it tells your body, like, hey, it's time to go to bed. And so what happens is when your body melatonin gets to a certain level, it tells your body, like, all right, we need to go to bed. And then once it goes to bed, it starts to go down. Go down, go down, and you wake up and that melatonin level is low. Then it bumps up a little bit, like around lunch. So after lunch, and you're tired. That's the reason why, then it goes down and it goes back up. So when you hear circadian rhythm, they're talking about that body clock that's happening. So now anytime you hear cicada Rhythm. Just like Body clock.

[Kim Holderness]

Got it.

[Penn Holderness]

Thank you.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, you mentioned melatonin, and I was gonna save my supplement list until the the end of the show for Rapid Fire, but let's talk about it now. It's a big list. It's a big list. But first question, should we be taking melatonin? I've heard some arguments that we shouldn't. More on this after these words. Now it's time for an ad from MIDI Health, the online experts in menopause and perimenopause.

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[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Melatonin is a signal, not a solution. So if you're reaching towards melatonin, that's the time where you, you need to talk to your provider or find a sleep doctor like me. Because a lot of people say, oh, I can just take this and fix it right then and there. And so it's funny, I have a real about like grading melatonin 0 out of like, you know, 1 to 10. And I gave it a 0. And I gave it a 0. When you use it by yourself because you're trying to take it and not look at the problem. Because unfortunately, people take the wrong dose at the wrong time. Even on the bottle, it says take it half an hour before, you know. Yeah, go to bed. But honestly, it takes up to one, mostly two hours. So I have my patients take two hours before bedtime. And the dosage, you don't have to go higher than like 1 milligram. And sometimes you can go up to 5. But if you look at the bottles, there's like 5, 10.

[Kim Holderness]

10. Yeah.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Yes. And so people. And I've had patients where they'll take it and they're like, yeah, I just couldn't go to sleep, so I took in the middle of the night. And if you remember my little description of the melatonin.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, the sign curve.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

You're falling asleep.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

That melatonin should be getting little. So if you. It bumps up. And so guess what? It does. It just makes your sleep worse. And so that's why. So people can take it with the proper guidance. That would be my answer.

[Kim Holderness]

I have been a fighter of sleep my entire life. I joke about being able to sleep on concrete when I was 20. Not true. Like, even my mom wrote in my baby book when I was like five. Like, Kim's a sleep fighter. So I come at it honest. So this is what I did see Just primary care physician and I did get a prescription, but long term use has been shown to lead to cognitive decline. So I'm trying not to take it every day, but I would take all at once. Melatonin, magnesium, L theanine and 5 HTP and this one thing called in Sitol or something like that. And sleep. Dr. Chris, I'll sleep for about four hours and then I'm wide awake. Am I broken? Is there a way to fix me?

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Well, put it this way, you're not broken. And what you said, I've heard before. And there's our supplements that help people guide them into falling asleep. But then my goal is, I always tell people, my goal is for you to go to bed and wake up and feel refreshed and make sure that you have the recommended amount of sleep for your age. And if you're 18 and up, that's anywhere from seven to nine hours. Now I pause when I say that because every time I say that everyone thinks so. It's like, oh no, I'm not getting seven hours or I'm only good. It's like, I just need a good five hours. But there's a reason why you have to do that. It's like your phone. If you went to bed and you put your phone and you plug it in and you woke up and you saw your phone was only at like 40%, you're going to be pretty upset. You're like, what's going on? What happened? Like, wait, where's my charger? I need to take it with me. But unfortunately there are people that will wake up and their body's at 40%. It's like, all right, let me get through the day. And so I want people to treat their sleep like they treat their phone. And if you're having problems getting to sleep or staying up, the nervous system that plays a role with it as well. But then you also have to look at your sleep. Because the hardest part about my job is that I got to talk to people about sleep and what happens to them when they're unconscious. So this is where your bed partner comes into play. Because if you wake up in the morning and you feel alert and you got the recommended amount of sleep, great. But if you're not, then that's when you talk to your bed partner. And sometimes it's a simple question of, do I snore? Or like, what am I doing in my sleep? So if you're flip flopping around like a fish out of water or you're punching and fighting your sleep or you're snoring or having pausing and breathing, you want to look for those things because fixing that can extend it. So when you say, am I broken? No, you're not broken. You just got to figure out what's happening.

[Penn Holderness]

All right, so what if your partner, who you love, has built a fort of great size and volume between the two of you, and observing her at night is impossible without a periscope.

[Kim Holderness]

I just. I mean, I. I like. I enjoy pillows. Sleep, Dr. Chris. Yeah, and I will say I toss and turn, but I'm awake when I'm tossing and turning. Okay, I don't.

[Penn Holderness]

Well, you don't know that. Maybe you toss when you're like, I feel like we need to film each other.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Hey, you know, look, no judgment here.

[Penn Holderness]

No judgment.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, so is. At what point is it like, well, I'm just a terrible sleeper. And at what point do you see a sleep doctor?

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

So it goes back to what I'm saying. So if you're not getting the recommended amount of sleep, or you're getting the recommended amount of sleep and you're still not feeling rested, that's when you can get a sleep doctor involved. You can even start with your primary provider saying, hey, what's going on? And then they can give their recommendations. And if you're still feeling it, you know, get a sleep doctor involved. Because so many times I. One of the many things that I hear patients say, and another one of them will say, well, I sleep fine. And when we do a sleep study or do the further evaluation, we found out that there's some problems that are going on. So here's the thing about the bid. It's only for three things, and they start with the letter S if you're sick, if you're sleeping, sandwiches. No, you know what that third is?

[Penn Holderness]

I know what the third one is.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

And so if none of those three things are happening, then you are not in bed. And so if you are up and you feel like you can't get back in bed, one of the things you can't do, you can't force yourself to go to sleep. So if it takes you more than 20 minutes, I just tell people, get out of bed. And honestly, if it's a horrible night, you know, we can call that night a loss. But it doesn't mean that you're a failure. It just means that, look this night and go the way it should, right? And then you serve that next night. And so if it takes you more. And so say, for example, four o' clock in the morning, and you're laying down, wait till 4:20. And mind you, I said the bed's only for three things.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

So I didn't. Television. I didn't say phone. And so you gotta put your. You have to make it boring when you're in the middle of the night. So you get out of bed. Once you get out of bed, sit down, breathe. There's a lot of people that feels like their mind is racing where all those thoughts going, going, going. Then what you can do with that, Get a piece of paper, get a pen and write down what you're thinking. And it could be journaling, which is helpful. You can just put down words, tired, children, husband, whatever it is.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Hold it up, put it under your pillow. And that's telling mine. Like look, we're thinking about this, but we're saving it for another time.

[Kim Holderness]

I'm gonna try that.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. Because all right. We're like the three S's for us are streaming, scrolling and sandwiches.

[Kim Holderness]

Sandwiches.

[Penn Holderness]

So, so we, we both do this. She, she'll go up, Kim will go up at 8 and she's got a turn down. She reads her book in bed. Then, then she'll go on TikTok in a bed. I never thought that was a problem. You're saying it might be and I do some of the same stuff. You're saying it might be smart for us to do those two things at a different location. Even if it's like the chair next to your bed. So that, that, like that bed equals conk out when you get there.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Exactly.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Because the thing is, is that at a point and it goes back to like when we were in your 20s, like yeah, your body, like you didn't have any stress. You. I would say social media but 20 years ago social media was different from where we were. We didn't have my space on our phone. But now people can go through that because it's not a problem then. But the older you get and more those stresses that are in and your nervous system is very sensitive, you do those things, they're not going to help you go to bed. And so that's why you have to keep that bed sacred. And so can you be on TikTok? Sure. But I would say be at it at a slower time before bed because know TikTok or any other social media that leads to doom scrolling and you know, and then now you're just revved up to get ready to go to bed. And of course there's nothing in news that's going to rev you up Right now.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh, my Lord.

[Penn Holderness]

We've touched. We've touched a nerve here. And I think it's good.

[Kim Holderness]

Right in the intro to this podcast I talked about how my bed is like my favorite place in the world. Like I love. I get in my bed and I kind of do this little wiggle and because I. I read a lot. So I will read for more than an hour in bed at night. But I. So I'm so I'm gonna have. That's a huge habit change. I'm willing to do it because I need to sleep.

[Penn Holderness]

It's almost your birthday. What if I got you like the dopest like divan or like one of those like loungey chairs that's like right next that you could be excited about?

[Kim Holderness]

Shay's lounge shades.

[Penn Holderness]

That's the word I'm looking for. I don't know what anything is, but like one of, like one of those that became your transitional area area. We'll give you like something that's like comfy.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Penn Holderness]

That you can use over there.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. Right now, should I be out of the room sleeping or just not in the bed?

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Not in the bed. And that's. And so it's just the bed. You can be in the bedroom and. And for people that are listening and you're probably like, well, I love the read. And then. And one thing I will say, if you're not having any problems, then I'm not having any problems. But no, if you start to have those problems. So it can start to creep up if you're waking up in the middle of the night. Because you know there are factors in her mind we talked about, about circadian rhythm. There's also cortisol. Those are stress hormones. So if you're in stressful situations or you're very sensitive to stress and that can play a role in the middle of the night because it's like your emotional check in right then. And normally you're going to wake up anyway. But our body can go right back to sleep. But if there's heightened stress, that makes it harder to go to bed. So that's why we have to make sure that bed is sacred. And so reading is great. Like, honestly, there's time where I'm just sitting at the foot of my bed and just doing things from there and so nicer. But yeah, you can like, you know, do that. And I'm not trying to take away because reading that is a great wind down time. TikTok. I would say it's a little bit later than just right before Bed. Because looking at that screen, it's kind of like taking an espresso right before bed. And no, it's not going to do that because it's going to keep you up.

[Kim Holderness]

I have to frame it like that because I was really good about putting my phone across the room. But then my daughter went to college and like, I just feel like I want to have my phone close to me at all times just in case she calls and that kind of.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Yeah, you know, and having it in your room, that is okay. Because here's the thing there, our phones are smart enough where you can turn off notifications outside of certain people to call. And so you can set it up to where if your daughter calls or have something, you can do that and it can still be in the room. Room. Just have it away. Because unfortunately, like, we're trained. When you wake up, what's the first thing you grab? Ah, you're grabbing your phone. And we have to get away from that. And you. And just try it for a week. Have it away from your bed against the wall somewhere else. And you're like, wow, I'm not like, reaching for it. And you're like, you're actually waking up. Because what affects your night, affects your daytime. But also when you set your daytime, sunlight is your friend. So get out of the bed, open that window, get that sunlight. That sunlight keeps that melatonin down and get into that rhythm of the night. And so that can help. And if there's still problems, you know, and I got four words for you. You know, a guy, There you go.

[Penn Holderness]

Let's move on to something else. Everybody I know having trouble sleeping, took a study, got a cpap. Now I look like Darth Vader when I'm sleeping. You know, like CPAPs. Yay or nay? Are they? Are they. Is it the wonder solution to everything?

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

I'll phrase the question a little bit different. Does it work? Definitely. And for obstructive sleep apnea, there's two things I want to talk to you about before we get to cpap. Because obstructive sleep apnea, people probably heard about it or people have commercials where it's like, don't use your cpap. Use this instead. Obstruct the sleep apnea. When you fall asleep, all the muscles in your body relax. Your legs, your arms, muscles in the back of your throat. So if that's your mouth and it's the back of your throat when you're awake, airways open and air is going in and out, no problem. Problem. You fall asleep Muscles relax, and right in the back, it gets small. So when you're sleeping and breathing in, that's how snoring happens. Then it relaxes some more. Then all of a sudden, airway is closed. So no oxygen is going to your heart, your lung, or your brain. And they don't know what's happening back there. So your heart's working harder, lungs are breathing in deeper, and your brain sending stress signals all over your body. Then all of a sudden, you wake up. Well, not you, your body. Sometimes you. You fall back asleep, and it happens over and over and over again. That's obstructive sleep apnea. Now, I tell my patients this. There are many ways to treat obstructive sleep apnea. CPAP is one of them. And does CPAP work? Yes. And I'm going to sound like a cheesy commercial, but I'm going to say it anyway. Not only am I your doctor, I have obstructive sleep apnea. I've been treated for, like, over 21 years. And CPAP stands for continuous positive airway pressure. And that last word is the most important part. Pressure. You're wearing a mask, and it provides that pressure to keep your airway open. Doesn't matter if muscles are relaxing. Air is going in and out. No problem. And the thing is, is that that works. And so when people use it and they say the whole Darth Vader mask, and I've been using them, like I said, for over 20 years. I've heard everything. There are over 200 different types of masks. So there's one that covers your nose and mouth. It might just cover your nose or just go right under your nostrils or under your nostrils and your mouth. So there's so many combinations. So if that one mask didn't work, then there's so many different ways. It's funny, one of my female patients told me, finding the right mass is kind of like bra fitting.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

I don't know what that means, but I figured, like, hey, find the best one, then you got a winner. And the cool thing is, is that CPAP's not the only option. So does it work? Yes. Are there other ways to treat it? Definitely. And it just depends on your severity of what it is to have that. And that's one thing I love about being in social media, because I get to put that out there. Because a lot of people know about cpap, but not knowing about other ways to treat it.

[Kim Holderness]

What are some of the other ways?

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

So, again, it depends on severity. So you can have. So if you're mild to moderate, of course. Mild, moderate, severe. CPAP therapy. There's a mouthpiece that you can put in your mouth that's called a mandibular advancement device. It's a fancy way of saying the mouthpiece that moves your jaw forward while you're sleeping to open up airway. So that's one way to do it. There's myofunctional therapy where you train your muscles to get stronger to open up your airway, depending on severity. That's a way to do that as well. There's also surgery that can open up your airway. There's been some more advanced where we really don't do it that much anymore. They literally would move your jaw forward to open up your way. That's. It's been done before in the past. There's other ways to do it now. There is also. There is a procedure you can do where it connects to a nerve that moves your tongue forward to open up your airway. They call that a hypocalasal nerve stimulator. And then there's even medication that can promote weight loss that will get rid of your obstructive sleep apnea, too. So there's so many different ways. So that's why I like. I love seeing patients, because I'm like, we'll find a way that works for you. My job is for them not to use CPAP therapy. My job is to make sure their sleep apnea is treated and that they have good quality sleep.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, switching gears here. You're talking to some ADHD people. Do you have evidence that people with neurodiversity, specifically adhd, have sleep, sleep. More sleep troubles than others?

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

I most definitely do, and that holds a special place in my heart as well. My son, he has ADHD because his father truly also have adhd.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Yes. And the thing is, is that with neurodiversity, like the way that your cortisol work and the way that your melatonin work can be a slight different and where you have to be more intentional on how you sleep. I literally have a webinar that talks about neuroscience, neurodiversity, and sleep for children and for adults as well, where you have to be more intentional on prioritizing your sleep, making sure that things are in a set pattern to help you guide yourself to go to bed. So, for example, this is for everybody, but more important for people that are neurodivergent, when you're going to bed, it's kind of like a plane. And when a plane is Landing. How does a plane land? The plane glides its way down and that's how you have to go to sleep. So bedtime doesn't start when you get into the bedroom. It starts like two hours before, where you start a process where you're starting to decrease that screen time. When you start to get into a routine that starts to get strategic and boring, where you're getting to go to bed and that's relaxed. That's relaxing. And making sure that your environment where you're going to sleep promotes sleep. Like if you look at this the way that you sleep, and I'm talking to myself too, if your side of your bed is messy, there's a chance that your sleep might be messy too. You know our truths on, on sleep, Dr. Chris on online, and that's one of my lines, is like, look, how your bed looks is how you're going to sleep. And that's a hard truth. And it is. So that's one way that you have to play a role in it. And if you think if you go to bed and you just a plane and you just collapse, they literally call that crashing. So you want to make sure that you're gliding down because you have a heightened propensity to get into stress. So that's watching the, like the cortisol. So you want to make sure that eating is like a little bit away from bedtime, making sure that the routine is straight from there. And that's the shameless plug. And so, you know, if you look up sleep. Dr. Chris, I have literally a webinar that talks about it, that goes into those specifics because it's not about fixing your sleep, it's about giving yourself grace that like, it might not be perfect, but you haven't lost anything and you go into the next night knowing that sleep can be better.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, we got a caller who called in and she has an ADHD son. He's a teenager and he is struggling with sleep. And in that, in the morning there are three alarms set, she said, across the room at half hour increments. And he, he is so zonked out that he cannot, he doesn't hear them. Any advice for this family?

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Yeah, and so it's funny because I, I literally just put out a video about like when your child has a diagnosis of ADHD. There are 30% of people that have ADHD that can have a sleep disorder, like obstructive sleep apnea. Before I start going towards medication, because I'm also a pediatric neurologist as well. And being a Pediatric neurologist makes me a better sleep doctor. Being a sleep doctor makes me a better neurologist. And I see adults and kids for sleep, seeing them when they are diagnosed with adhd. The symptoms of obstructive sleep apnea in children is hyperactivity, inattention, mood and sometimes sleepiness. That's not even the top one. I've had many patients that came in thinking that they had ADHD and they actually had obstructive sleep apnea. If this family is having this person that their child, that's it's hard for them to wake up. My question to them, how do they sleep? Are they snoring? Do they sleep with their mouth open? Now saying that, does that mean all these people that have ADHD know they actually have obstructive sleep apnea? Doesn't necessarily mean that, but it means that they should get their sleep checked. Because even if they don't have obstructive sleep apnea, you get that ruled out. And if they do, treating that can stop those symptoms. If it doesn't, it can still help facilitate treating ADHD as well. My neurodivergent clinic that I have, in my clinic I make sure when they are sleeping well and they get better sleep, they get better outcomes. Treating their adhd, treating their autism, treating those neurodivergent disorders that you have.

[Kim Holderness]

I don't know a ton about sleep apnea. Why did I just think it was something that old men got? Could a 17 year old really have sleep apnea?

[Penn Holderness]

Yes.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

And so I'm trained for sleep medicine and there's so many sleep disorders, but with obstructive sleep apnea you can get it at birth to death. And so I see patients of all ages. And the thing that's different is for obstructive sleep apnea and we talked about it, it's different than it is in kids and adults. Small kids, small airways. So there's things that are obstructing it. Sometimes they're tonsils and they're adenoids that you can't see unless you had a little tube with a camera that goes all the way down their nose to look at it. You remove that, that opens up their airway, or if they get older, their airway opens up more. So sleep apnea happens in children, adolescents, teenagers, adults and even elderly.

[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

All right, sleep Dr. Chris, are you ready for the lightning round?

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Oh, hold on.

[Penn Holderness]

And by the way, I'm going. I'm going to allow you one non lightning answer where you can get on your soapbox.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Okay?

[Penn Holderness]

Listen, you're on TikTok, we're on TikTok. There's a lot of sleep advice on TikTok. And, and we need guidance, you know what I mean? All right, so I'm going to start with the Kim Kardashian, like, huge headband that goes around your chin.

[Kim Holderness]

Have you seen that? It's like a chin strap thing that looks like a torture device. What do you think of that?

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

See a sleep doctor. Okay. Okay, good. You know, it's funny because some of these, Some of my answers just might be that simple. Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

See a sleep doctor. I'm guessing melatonin. See a sleep doctor.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Yes. See a sleep doctor. Wrong dose, wrong time. Magnesium can be good for legs. Can be helpful. Check your iron.

[Penn Holderness]

Oh, okay.

[Kim Holderness]

Check your iron.

[Penn Holderness]

You've been told.

[Kim Holderness]

I have been. Okay. Yeah. My iron's always very low. I'm always on supplements for it. Okay. Tart cherry duplicates juice. Like I've, I've heard that recently. Tart cherry juice can be delicious.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Can have melatonin. Doesn't hurt if you try it.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay. Lettuce water.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Good for soup. Okay.

[Penn Holderness]

Mouth tape.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, here you go.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

She said okay. Mouth tape. In short, that's when you need to see a sleep doctor. It can be dangerous. So my question is, why are you using mouth tape? So if someone is snoring, that means that their airway is closing. Airway closing. Oxygen going down. So if you close your mouth, it has nothing to do with your mouth and everything to do with your muscles. So that can play a role. Now, there are instances where it can be helpful, but that is such a small percentage where people, the most common people that use it, they are not, not looking at their sleep to see if they have a sleep disorder. And that's the hard part about it.

[Kim Holderness]

I think a lot of. Yeah, I think a lot of people on Tick Tock are using mouth tape because they want this snatch jawline and they think that they're sleeping with their mouth open and it's making them.

[Penn Holderness]

In one of your pleas for me to try and mouth tape was you saying that I might have a snatched at her jawline.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, I'm like, it might make your jawline more Snatched.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

So with that, your body's smart. If your body's opening its mouth when you're sleeping, it's telling you something's going on and I have to open my mouth. Your body's trying to tell you something. And so in short, listen to it. And that's the hard part because my thing is you want to lose. If you want to use mouth tape, do a sleep study first. And if it's fine, then go get a jawline.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes. Weighted blankets.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Comforting. Helpful. Good for people with restless leg syndrome.

[Penn Holderness]

White noise machines.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Comforting if it's not a problem for you. Okay, Good way to wind down.

[Kim Holderness]

Total blackout curtains. Dark cave.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Essential for sleep.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Especially with night shift workers.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay. Beautiful.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

I always tell people you want the bed to be three things, like the bedroom. You want it to be quiet, dark and cool. And that will facilitate getting good rest. Now if you're still getting great sleep and it's not those three things, great. But if you're not, think about that. And you want your room temperature. And this is where the fights begin. Anywhere from like 65 to 67 degrees.

[Penn Holderness]

Let's go. Oh my gosh. I'm sorry, that was just basically, that was like a two point wrestling takedown for me, unfortunately. But I'm like. Because she likes it, right? Really, really warm. And I am a 65 to 67.

[Kim Holderness]

I don't like it warm. I can't sleep when it's warm. But I grew up in Florida. I actually like to sweat and so I don't like hot. I, I don't get hot flashes, but I'll do get some night sweats and I actually like that. It's fun, but I kind of like it. So. But I think my ideal temperature is like 72.

[Penn Holderness]

That's, that's 5 to 7 degrees above

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

for anyone that's listening. If you're sleeping well and it's at 72, that's great. But if there's problem, especially when you're getting at an age where people are thinking about perimenopause and like, oh no, I can't sleep. Cut that, cut it down and you'll be amazed. Even though, like, even though it's cool, then warm yourself up because that cool temperature will definitely still. It does, it does a trick that a lot of people like won't try and will be amazed of how it helps.

[Penn Holderness]

I mean, we listen, you and I, we love each other. We have done like our, our temperature delta I think is 5 or 6 degrees. It's pretty significant. You like 71 72. I like what he just mentioned, but we've, like, you've gotten more blankets on your side. You've worked on that. If it's a little warm for me at my air conditioner, I take my foot and I drag it out. So I got a little extra body part that's just exposed to the elements and that helps out. So, like, we, like, we try to work it out.

[Kim Holderness]

When do you recommend, at what point Sleep. Dr. Chris would you advise people sleeping

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

in separate rooms when you have to prioritize yourself getting quality sleep? And for people that don't know, they call that the sleep divorce.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Where you move to a different room and sometimes it's helpful for people. But what I usually do, you know, I'm a big proponent of people, like, still sharing the same room. So I'm like, well, why are you leaving? It's like, oh, well, my husband snores or my wife is snoring terribly. I was like, well, bring them in. Let's see if we can work that out. And whatever problem that they can fix, if they fix it, then you can stay in the bed together. But if that is a problem, then you have to have, like, that bond not broken where you might have to get your own sleep by yourself. And so if it's getting to the point where you just can't sleep better and you notice that you sleep better without that person, then sleep by yourself. But talk to your bed partner to say, like, look, there's some things that you might have to get fixed. And once they get it fixed, then I usually see those, like, bed partners get back in bed with each other. Yeah. Most of the time we, like, we,

[Penn Holderness]

we're not getting a sleep divorce, but we're fooling around.

[Kim Holderness]

We are fooling around. Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

I mean, we have, we have some, like, rules. So Kim has a curfew. If I'm, I have a wine now, it's very understandable if I come in before 10 o', clock, like, we're good after 10 o'. Clock. Like, she's like, she, if I wake her up and startle her, I understand that. Like, that's tough. So I just go to the, I go to the guest room.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

No problem.

[Penn Holderness]

Sometimes, like, if I come in at 9 o' clock and you're already out, like, I'll sneak in and we'll try to make it work out. But we've, like, we've tried to work this out. There are just, there are times when either one of us isn't feeling well or feeling like we haven't slept. Usually, like when there's been two or three days of bad sleep, we just say, yeah, let's, let's split up.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

I see a lot of spouses all the time. And the funny part is, is that usually when I, when I see a patient, I always talk about their bed partner and how they sleep. Sleep. Because I had a woman that came in, she had, she thought she had insomnia, but then I figured out like, wait a second, you're saying it sounds like just your husband's snoring a lot. So let's bring them in. Then I got him treated. Then lo and behold, she's sleeping a lot better and so is her husband.

[Kim Holderness]

Sleep Dr. Chris, anything else that you've given us such great information, Anything else you think our listeners could benefit from?

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

A hard part about sleep is that people, the first thing people will sacrifice is their sleep. And so you have to be intentional, especially when you get older. But more important, literally, if you're listening, talk to your bed partner and just ask them, like, how do I sleep? Because you'll be surprised.

[Kim Holderness]

Thank you. Where can people find you and find more information on what you're doing?

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

I try to make it easy for everyone. So if you put in sleep Dr. Chris. So sleep Dr. Chris, you'll find me on TikTok, you'll find me on Instagram, Facebook, or you can just go to sleepdrchris.com and the shameless plug out there. Because I'm a big proponent of kids getting treated. I have a children's book. It's called Sweet Dreams because I say that a lot on my page. So it's my personal story about how I got obstructive sleep apnea. And it's a tool for parents on what to look out for for their children.

[Kim Holderness]

I love it. Thank you so much. And this is great information. And tonight, if I can't sleep, I'm just going to be sitting in that chair like a weirdo in our room.

[Penn Holderness]

We're gonna do that. We're gonna do the wind down thing where you sleep, study and we'll check in like let's check in with him in like six months or so.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Seriously. Okay, I'll be waiting.

[Kim Holderness]

Thank you so much. Okay, I am going to get out of bed when I can't sleep. I'm not going to read in bed.

[Penn Holderness]

And you're not going to get in bed until you're ready to go to sleep? Until it's an interesting one.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes. And, and yeah, I feel like I can do it.

[Penn Holderness]

Yes. But you really do enjoy that.

[Kim Holderness]

It is my favorite thing to get in bed and read. But maybe if I, you know, we should do build a cozy library type room.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay.

[Kim Holderness]

And it's just like a book nook and I can get in and. Yeah. And there's like a little bed there, but it's not my sleeping bed.

[Penn Holderness]

Right. Or just like get you some new furniture in the bedroom that you can sit on.

[Kim Holderness]

Just involved shopping.

[Penn Holderness]

How did you feel about the 65 to 67 degree temperature optimization thing? That was even lower than I thought he was going to say.

[Kim Holderness]

I am very much an outlier in sleep temperature. I have not. I've yet to meet somebody besides my dad. I went to go visit him over the summer and he keeps it like at 78.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

It's a, I think it's a genetic thing in your family.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, I think that it was like a cost. We lived in Florida. So you are in and you're doing like AC year round and it gets very expensive. So like we just didn't turn on

[Penn Holderness]

the AC and that's how you got used to it.

[Kim Holderness]

And that's how. And that just became like how I slept.

[Dr. Christopher Allen]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

What about you?

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. So I. Listen, I, I've needled with the idea of, of getting a sleep study for a while, but I just have always imagined it like some like me, like vulnerable in a hospital with someone putting tubes and stickers and crap on me.

[Kim Holderness]

They definitely put tubes up your butt for it.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. We're gonna look into it it and we're going to crank the, the air condition up so it's 65 degrees tonight and I'm joking. We're never going to do that. We're gonna, we're gonna find a way to soldier through.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh yeah. I, you know what? I, I was trying not to make it like a doctor's appointment for me, but I probably, I am curious.

[Penn Holderness]

Don't you think so many people are going through what you're going through though now? Because like menopause causes all of these issues.

[Kim Holderness]

Like for so long I've taken so many like supplements or medications. Medication. Have I created some sort of like drug resistant insomnia? Like I take, I take so much that I, I gave it to a friend who was having trouble sleeping and they said it put them into an actual coma. Like they. She was like, you could have operated on me. And she slept for 12 hours so she needed sleep. So it was good. But like a normal, a normal person. And I still don't get a good night's sleep on that.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, that could be true. It also could be like some of the environmental things that sleep doctor Chris just talked about. Like, we're armed with so much more information than we had when we started this this hour, so I'm happy.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, thank you for joining us, friends and I hope you have sweet dreams.

[Penn Holderness]

I'm gonna read the credits and let's have some, like, lullaby music for this one so everyone can sleep nicely. Laugh Lines is written and produced by Kim Holderness, Pen Holderness and Anne Marie Tapkin with original music by Ben Holderness. It's filmed, edited and

[Kim Holderness]

asmr.

[Penn Holderness]

Those are my Fingernails. Live produced by Sam Allen and hosted by acast. That's the noise of Kim snorting, snorting and snorting. As always, we love to hear from you. Please write to us at [e-mail] leave a voicemail 323-364-3929. We'll talk to you soon soon on the Laughline.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Dr. Christopher Allen]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Dr. Christopher Allen]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Dr. Christopher Allen]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Dr. Christopher Allen]

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[Penn Holderness]

Acast.com.