Men for Menopause with Jesse Robertson

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Men for Menopause with Jesse Robertson"

[Laugh Lines with Kim & Penn Holderness]

Date: December 2, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Laugh Lines is devoted to demystifying menopause, especially for men, and opening up the conversation about how partners can better support each other during perimenopause and menopause. Hosts Kim and Penn Holderness welcome Jesse Robertson, a viral advocate for men's involvement in menopause conversations, to discuss ignorance and stigma around menopause, communication pitfalls in relationships, empathy, and Jesse's viral journey educating other men. The discussion also offers practical advice for both partners and features the characteristic humor and warmth of the Holdernesses.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Men Need to be Part of the Menopause Conversation

• The episode sets out to encourage women listeners to invite the men in their lives into conversations about menopause for mutual understanding and support.
• Penn: “Men, you need to be part of the menopause conversation. We have the fabulous Jesse Robertson, and he’s really taking part in leading that conversation for men about menopause.” (07:44)

2. Jesse Robertson’s Viral Advocacy Origin Story

• Jesse describes how a podcast with Dr. Mary Claire Haver opened his eyes to menopause, changing his perspective as a husband and a father to a teenage daughter.
• He began a TikTok on parenting, but after his new awareness, he shifted focus to menopause—despite thinking it might be “social media suicide.”
• The result was an outpouring of women and men hungry for more honest information and validation.
• Jesse: “Within five minutes, I’m sitting there driving and I’m like, wait, what did she just say? Wait, what’s going on?...This was the—like, you pull into the garage and you don’t get out of the car. I was just sitting there listening to this.” (11:32)
• Jesse: “I was 48 years old, married 18 years, I never heard of this. I’ve never been in a conversation with a single man or woman about this. It’s happening right in front of our faces…The women who we love are hurting quietly in a lot of cases, right in front of our face.” (13:31)

3. Common Resistance from Men & Societal Stigma

• Jesse highlights initial resistance from men: some don’t believe menopause is real or significant, and some even trivialize their partners’ experiences.
• Jesse: “There are men out there that will out for sure say, this isn’t real. They will say, she is making this up. They will say, this is an excuse for bad behavior. …I’ll get comments like, ‘Oh, thanks for the heads up, dude, I’ll just trade her in for somebody younger.’ To which I’m of course saying, like, hey, I bet you rocked in high school.” (16:36)

4. What Jesse Wishes Men Knew about Menopause

• Menopause is not voluntary—hormonal changes are profound and not within a woman’s control.
• The symptoms are disruptive and explain changes in mood, intimacy, and communication—not excuses for “bad behavior.”
• Jesse: “I want men to know how out of control this actually is. … This is literally her losing these hormones that have protected her, right, all this time.” (18:27)
• Jesse: “When she doesn’t want to be intimate, it’s not because of you. When she’s having a mood swing, it’s not because she feels like that.” (19:34)
• Men can’t just “fix” menopause by willing through it; it’s physiological, not psychological.

5. Communication Pitfalls and Solutions

• Couples often focus on symptoms and specific incidents (e.g., lack of sex or mood swings) rather than sharing how these changes make them feel and inviting empathy.
• Jesse recommends using “I feel” statements to defuse defensiveness and foster honest discussion—e.g., “When you lash out at me, it makes me feel like you don’t love me anymore.”
• Men need to approach with compassion and action, not just empathy.
• Jesse: “From your perspective, what’s the biggest communication mistake that couples are making when they’re navigating menopause together? … They’re trying to communicate about that thing rather than talking about how it’s making them feel.” (26:11)
• Kim: “If Penn said, ‘Babe, I know this is so hard for you...’ I don’t get as defensive if I understand he knows how hard it is.” (30:14)

6. Intimacy & Mental Load

• Loss of libido is the most common male complaint, but they must learn that mental load and stress are major factors for women’s willingness to be intimate.
• Jesse: “The reason why she doesn’t want to be intimate right now isn’t because she; you know, there is the physiological hormonal effect, but it’s because she’s super stressed out. She’s very overwhelmed. She’s not relaxed. And that’s where you’ve got to get to if you want something to happen.” (32:47)

7. All This Happens at a Difficult Life Stage

• The overlap of perimenopause with career peaks, parenting teens, empty nesting, and possible elder care adds extra pressure for midlife women.
• Jesse: “All of what she is going through is happening leading up to when she’s at the height of her career, when she’s raising teenagers...Caring for elderly parents and potentially losing one of them. You have to clock all of that as well.” (35:02)

8. Where Men Should Start: Listening & Believing

• Key advice: “It really begins with listening to and believing your wife. It just—I don’t think that’s happening.” (37:13)
• Rather than needing to understand every symptom (“she may not have the words for it”), men should be present, accepting, and ready to learn together.

9. Mental & Emotional Toll – Grief, Shame, Identity

• Many women experience a sense of grief and shame as they undergo changes that affect their self-image and sense of identity, compounded by lack of open discussion and societal standards.
• Jesse: “There’s a period of time as that transition takes place where that might not be how she feels. …the answer that [another woman] gave was shame. …Shame in the context of menopause is also part of this.” (39:59, 41:00)

10. The Role of Social Media & Reaching Men

• Jesse’s analytics show a shift from 98% women to about 75% women, 25% men—men are “green sloping, slowly pizza-turning their way into this conversation.”
• The comments section has become a “massive data mine” and source of communal problem-solving and support.
• Jesse: “I’ve got, there’s plenty ... women will talk about different symptoms...they are different things like anxiety, depression...and the fact that there is a sense of grief.” (45:08)
• The presence of men as advocates is essential for normalizing these conversations.

11. Parody, Humor, and Men’s Menopause Choir?

• The hosts and Jesse brainstorm a “Menopause Men’s Choir,” a ‘We Are the World’-style parody, to raise awareness among men. Jesse’s background as a sales presenter and parody songwriter match the Holdernesses’ comedic brand.
  • Penn: “We will get risers. And we sing kind of a We Are the World style song about what men need to know…We need to collab with Jesse.” (48:51)
  • Jesse (joking): “I started going down the, like, American Pie route. ‘A long, long time ago…’ you go through, like, the sequence of the impact.” (49:38)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jesse: “I just know there are [more men who’d care]...And I’m now seeing that there are. Right? Because men are saying that this is helping them, and it’s saying that this is helping their relationship.” (51:15)
• Kim: “Women may not even have the words for it because we weren’t trained in it either. …There’s a whole generation of women that don’t even know that what they’re experiencing are symptoms of perimenopause and menopause.” (47:49, 60:15)
• Penn: “He does speak in a language that I have not heard people speak about [menopause]…he’s, I think, aware of what’s going on in our heads and acknowledging a lot of that, while also obviously acknowledging what’s going on with the woman.” (59:02)
• Jesse: “I wish I knew about this. …what the one thing that men need to understand is this isn't her choice. …she needs your support.” (18:27)
• Jesse (on how men can start): “Go to her. Listen to her. She has—she will tell you what she’s going through and she may not be able to articulate why in every case, …but start with your wife. Listen to your wife, believe what she’s telling you, and then educate yourself a little bit about this.” (37:13)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Perimenopause Word-Finding/Fog Story – Jeanette’s hilarious call: 08:09–09:18
• Jesse’s Origin Story – 10:16–14:10
• Common Male Resistance & Stigma – 16:33–17:29
• Impact on Intimacy & Communication – 28:23–33:45
• Life Stage Overlap (Careers, Teens, Elder Care) – 33:45–35:29
• Where Men Should Start (Listening/Believing) – 37:13–38:47
• Shame, Grief, & Identity – 39:59–42:40
• Men’s Menopause Choir Parody Bit – 48:32–50:59
• Jesse’s Social Media Impact & Community – 43:34–47:49

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Takeaways & Actionable Advice

For Men:

• Start by listening and believing—your partner might not have all the words, and may need space to explain unruly or unexplainable feelings.
• Validate what she’s experiencing, don’t try to “fix” her.
• Seek out education from reputable sources (follow Jesse and similar advocates).
• Approach difficult conversations about mood, intimacy, or changes through feelings rather than finger-pointing.
• Accept that menopause is physiological and multi-layered: support, patience, and compassion (not just empathy) are essential.

For Women:

• Share this episode with the men in your life as an accessible starting point for honest discussion.
• Remember, your struggle is valid even if society minimizes it—there’s power in community and shared stories.

For Couples:

• Use “I feel” language in conversations to avoid blame and foster understanding.
• Recognize the increased complexity and stress at midlife, and support each other through these changes.

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Closing & Where to Find Jesse

• Jesse Robertson: @husbands4menopause (number 4) on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube. He posts daily, and the comment communities are a goldmine of shared experience.
• The episode closes with gratitude for the growing movement of male menopause allies and a pledge to keep the conversation—and humor—going.
• Kim (final words): “Thank you to Jesse. Like, we are all less dumb thanks to you today, especially the dudes.” (70:18)

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This episode is a must-share—both for any women who want their partners to “get it,” and for men who are ready to show up and listen. The blend of humor, vulnerability, and straight talk makes it a generous, accessible entry point into a crucial conversation on aging, relationships, and health.

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Transcript

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Hello there mom and dad or mom and mom or dad and dad or parents. Are you about to spend five hours in the car with your beloved kids this holiday season? Driving to old Granny's house?

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[B]

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[A]

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And Steps independence for them. Peace of mind for you. Hello Perimenopause. Yeah, your husbands, they still love you, but they don't know the cause.

[A]

I struggle finishing actual sentences. Yeah, it is really hard.

[C]

It really begins with listening to and believing your wife. I don't think that that's happening.

[B]

And thank you to Jesse. Like we are all less dumb thanks to you today, especially the dudes.

[C]

Yeah, we get older every day. Got more wrinkles. That's okay. Yeah, we're laughing.

[B]

When we age, life is like a comedy stage. And that's why we got laugh lines.

[A]

Hey everybody, I'm Kim Holderness.

[B]

And I'm Penn Holderness. Welcome to Laugh Lines.

[A]

Laugh Lines is a podcast where we really celebrate the aging process. Aging is awesome. Except when it really sucks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then it sucks.

[A]

Then it sucks. Hey, if you remember sitting in front of your TV and watching Friday night videos, you're home. Funny question. Penn does not remember that. When I wrote that in there, he's like, what are Friday night videos?

[B]

Am I on the wrong show?

[A]

All of a sudden you are. You don't remember what you. Because I think maybe it was MTV or maybe it was like NBC. There was a network that played that's when you saw all the music videos.

[B]

And it was called Friday Night Videos.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Emery Tapke is as our fill in producer as Sam Allen is not here. She's on her computer right now. She's doing the, she's doing the, the Lord's work. She's doing some research.

[A]

Friday Night Videos existed. I'm not, I'm not gaslighting you, am I? No, you're not gaslighting. It actually has a really cool logo that we're going to put on for our YouTube listeners.

[B]

And when did it air? And what, like, what network?

[A]

So Friday Night Videos was a variety program that aired from July 1983 to May 2002 on NBC.

[B]

NBC, okay.

[A]

In 2002.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah, no, it was, I feel like it was a network situation and that was like, that was, I was what, seven or eight when, like when that was happening.

[B]

I don't ever remember seeing a video that wasn't on in MTV and had the little like underneath on the very bottom right, the name of the record company, the name of the band, the name of the song. And like it would be on that little bottom right for, I don't know, maybe 10 seconds and then go away.

[A]

Okay, hold on. Emory's got more. Yeah, I'd like to chime back in.

[C]

Okay, little fact check.

[A]

So the format had to change because in January 1994, after years of falling ratings.

[B]

Oh dear, here we go.

[A]

It got changed to late night and I think at one point Saturday morning, so it was bopping all around the place, it was popping all around.

[B]

But it had a 10 year run. And then everyone clearly got cable and went to MTV for this.

[A]

Do you remember like when music videos were a big deal?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now they come out on YouTube. Yeah, that's, that's a bigger deal.

[B]

But the world premiere of any video, I, I still remember the world premiere of Thriller.

[A]

I same. And Michael Jackson, Smooth Criminal.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

I mean I was. That was later, but it was still a big deal.

[B]

Yeah, that was, that was the lean forward and the lean back and we were like witchcraft. How did they do that?

[A]

Like, I was really sad to learn that, that Michael Jackson lean. It's because his shoes were like nailed to the floor still. I mean, still an accomplishment.

[B]

You nailed my shoes to the floor and you asked me to lean forward. I'm not stopping. Like I'm going all the way down. Ankles cracking, Achilles torn, true.

[A]

So it was still a pretty cool feat. It was still a pretty cool. Okay, today is going to be a show that you're going to want to send far and wide. You're gonna want to hit the share button on this show, and you're gonna.

[B]

Want to send it specifically because we know people, you know, because we have analytics that most of the people watching this show, God love you all, are women. And, you know, most of this, I.

[A]

Have to say, the YouTube viewers, there's a lot of men watching on YouTube.

[B]

But it's mostly women. And this, this is the show to send, or honestly, even better, to sit down and watch with the men that.

[A]

You love or hit play when you're on a car trip. Because men, you need to be part of the menopause conversation. We have the fabulous Jesse Robertson, and he's really taking part in leading that conversations for men about menopause. But first, because it's the Laugh Lines podcast, we have to first head to the laugh Line.

[B]

Call us up, and you tell us what's on your mind.

[A]

Who we got? Emery, we have Jeanette calling today. Hi, my name's Jeanette, and I am from Iowa. I love you guys. Just gotta say that I listen to your podcast, and not only do I have diagnosed adhd, but I am in that perimenopause age. And so I've always forgotten some words. Like, a vegetable peeler is a potato shaver. I told my children one day to make sure they picked up their banana wrapper instead of a banana peel. But what I've noticed processing in perimenopause is just actually forgetting how to say a sentence and form words together. Like, the other night, I looked at my child as I was making dinner, and she was supposed to set the table. And I pointed to the cabinet and I said, can you do the thing with the dishes and the table to eat? And she looked at me like I.

[C]

Had completely lost everything at the table.

[A]

Jeanette. Okay, first of all, thank you for calling. Thank you for making us laugh. Perimenopause can be very funny. I struggle finishing actual sentences. Yeah, I. It is really hard.

[B]

It's. I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen it. First of all, can I just. Can I jump in and say Jeanette? I think that banana wrapper is a more accurate description than banana peel.

[A]

Right?

[B]

I love it, and I feel the wrapper, and I want to stick with it.

[A]

Let's just do that.

[B]

But back to you, babe. I've seen it. It's fun for me. It's like a guessing game.

[A]

It is like charades.

[B]

Every day, we can play a guessing game. I can't wait to bring out Jesse here because he's going to explain why it is that when there's more than one thing going on in your head, it can really affect everything, including communication.

[A]

Right. We're going to get to this interview right now. Right after the interview, we're going to have a Road to 50 update and some other fun stuff. But let's just bring on Jess.

[B]

Jesse Robertson is a husband who went viral recently for his social media content encouraging men to support their partners through menopause. After listening to a health podcast, Jesse was inspired to educate other husbands on how to help their wives through this journey.

[A]

He runs the TikTok channel, USBands4Menopause, and it's number four. And he's been featured on USA Today, Good Morning America, but most importantly, on the Laugh Lines podcast, obviously. Welcome to the show, Jesse.

[C]

Thank you. Excited to be here.

[A]

So excited to see you.

[B]

We are thrilled to have you. We know how your story ends. It's with you being on USA Today and Good Morning America and millions of views and women everywhere and also men, really appreciating everything that you're done, that you've done to bring awareness to menopause. But I want to know how this started. There's got to be some personal story inside your life that led to this.

[C]

Yeah, well, it started completely unexpectedly, as sometimes these things do. Some of the coolest things happen that way. And for me, it was. I mean, if you go back seven months, I couldn't have told you the first thing about menopause. I also did. I happened to not know who Dr. Mary Claire Haver was at that time either. So who I'm sure you love most.

[B]

Men don't know these things, so.

[A]

Yeah, but you should. Okay.

[C]

And so I'm driving home from work and I'm listening to a podcast, and as I always do, sitting in the commute, and she's the guest. And I just, you know, I'm a. I'm a fan of the podcast, so I just. I let it go, whatever it is. I haven't heard of her. And they're talking about menopause. I don't really even know what that is. And I just remember within five minutes, I'm sitting there driving, and I'm like, wait, what did she just say? Wait, what's going on? Wait, what's happening to women? And. And I. And I got completely fixed in, like, I was hanging on every word. This was the. Like, you. You pull into the garage and you don't get out of the car.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[C]

Right Like, I'm just sitting there listening to this and. And I'm starting to think about my wife. I'm starting to think about my daughter who's 14. And there was a couple aha's that came like, oh, that's why. Right. Okay, now I'm starting to connect a couple dots. But I was totally fixated on this. And I had actually started a TikTok channel about a month earlier, maybe even three weeks. I had maybe a few hundred followers. And I was talking about parenting and I thought, okay, tomorrow I'm just going to do a post on this. And I was terrified. And I was super sheepish and it was kind of like, I hold my phone here and I'm like, do women want their husbands to talk to them about menopause? And. And I'm thinking to myself, like, well, I'm done on social media. And. But the exact opposite happened. It was just this flow, this, this flood of comments of women saying, yes, please bring awareness. Men aren't talking about this. Doctors aren't supporting us because they weren't trained to. We didn't even know this was coming. Right. Nobody talked to us about this. And so all of these things that we now know to be true came in through that post that totally validated everything that Dr. Haver was saying. And I kind of became just obsessed. I don't know how to explain it.

[A]

It was just like fixated. Yeah.

[C]

I just was like, this is insane. I'm 48 years old, married 18 years, I never heard of this. I've never been in a conversation with a single man or woman about this. It's happening right in front of our faces. And you know, truthfully, the women who we love are hurting and they're hurting quietly in a lot of cases. Right. Right in front of our face. We don't even know what's happening. And it just became the only thing I wanted to talk about. And so I changed the name of my TikTok channel and I just started talking about this. And it's now it's all I do, it's all I think about. I've read Dr. Haver's book. I research, I do. You know, I'm deep.

[A]

I think, first of all, every woman out there has probably already hit share on this podcast with their husband because they're saying, see. But I imagine I have so many follow up questions that your wife is thrilled with this, that she feels seen finally, right?

[C]

Yeah, no doubt. I mean, she does. She. I think she's proud of me, which is kind of fun. But she also. I remember the first time. So I listened to this podcast, and I, you know, she's standing in the kitchen, and I come into the kitchen. This is like, day two. And I come to the kitchen, and I specifically remember this. I go, hey, honey, did you know that doctors were not trained to support women on menopause? And she looks at me, it was like, that's adorable. And of course, she's like, yes, duh. I. And all of us do know that. But, you know, welcome. We're glad to have you. And then. And then, you know, and then, of course, it's like, I remember her saying, but do you know why, right? Do you know why that's the case? Do you know who made the decisions on what should be studied on women all of these years? And she kind of left me with that thought, right? And I'm like, okay, I'm clocking that one. And so I scurry off and I start learning about, you know, the histories of medical studies on men and women and what's. And then I start to understand, like, okay, you know, that that was sort of the big aha for me. Not only with symptoms for women, but also the context of what's going on.

[A]

It's.

[C]

You can actually explain it. You can make sense of what's happening if you really try to learn about this. And that's what I'm trying to do for men is just help them understand that you can actually understand what's going on with your wife. But you do have to listen to her. You have to believe her, and you have to spend some time learning about this.

[B]

Okay? Men, right? This is like, women are thrilled with Jesse, and they should be, because he's an ally, right? But for us, challenges, like getting the message across to men, right? True or false? Most men you talk to about and you're like, oh, I have a TikTok channel on perimenopause. Their answer is, isn't that when you're, like, 60? Yeah, right? That's. That's the general understanding right now in the world.

[A]

What.

[B]

What sorts of resistance have you run into when trying to educate men?

[C]

Well, I can tell you I have learned a thing or two about men in. In this time frame. These would also probably not be surprises to women, but I have learned that there are men out there that will out for sure say, this isn't real. They will say, she is making this up. They will say, this is an excuse for bad behavior. They will say, you know, all of these things, and they will Say some terrible things. Right. I'll get. And I've done posts on them. I'll get comments like, oh, thanks for the heads up, dude. I'll just trade her in for somebody younger. Right. You know, to which I'm of course saying, like, hey, I bet you rocked in high school.

[B]

And you peaked in high school for sure. Right.

[C]

Like, you want to check tape. But on top of that, it's also like, she's also going to have this too, by the way.

[A]

So eventually that new one will. Yeah. And also, you sound like a prize. I'm sure you'll be able to trade her in for a younger model. Whatever.

[C]

Totally.

[B]

Right. Was it Leo DiCaprio? Sorry, never mind. Let's keep going.

[C]

It's like, let me know how that's gonna.

[B]

Right, Exactly.

[A]

Sure. I'm sure there'll be women lining for that one. So, yes, I think women. And. And we hear that. And it's like a death by a thousand cuts. Right. We've all read or heard that, even. Even from doctors, quite honestly, saying this is just a natural thing that happens. Just because it's natural doesn't mean it's not awful. And it's not an excuse for bad behavior. It's not an excuse for poor behavior, but it certainly is an explanation of how we got there. What? First of all, like, 10 out of 10 love what you're doing. What do you wish more men knew about perimenopause and menopause?

[C]

If I were to take that back to what do I wish I knew about this? A. I wish I knew about this. So there is just a pure awareness standpoint, but I wish I knew. And I. And I want men to know how out of control this actually is. Right. And this is before we get into, you know, is there HRT or are there solutions or are there opportunities? Sure. But this is literally her losing these hormones that have protected her. Right. All this time. Everything from dopamine levels to serotonin levels to weight. Right. Physical symptoms like the lack of pain, natural lubricant in the body, and all of the benefits. Right. All of these things, these are now going away and she cannot stop that. Right. There may be replacement, but she can't stop what's happening. And I think what the one thing that men need to understand is this isn't her choice. Right. When she doesn't want to be intimate, it's not because of you. When she's having a mood swing, it's not because she feels like that. I've had a woman once told me when I have a rage episode, I literally hear a little voice in the back of my head saying, stop doing this.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Like, she knows and she still can't. And I, you know, as like, I've dealt with anxiety my entire life and when I, when I talk about this in my posts, I'll say, you know, guys, when you say that she should just be able to fix this, that she should just be able to do something about this, that's like going to somebody who has, who's depressed and saying just stop being sad. Or like, that's like going to me and saying, just stop feeling worried or scared. It doesn't work that way, right? This is a natural physiological, hormonal change. And I think the propensity that guys have is, it's the fix it. Right? Like, tell me how I can fix this, make this, like, I can fight through this. I was brought up to fight through this stuff. Why don't you fight through it? Right?

[A]

Right.

[C]

And so there's so much to understand about, you know, a given symptom or this, that or the other thing. But holistically, I just want men to understand that this is not her choice and this is hard and she needs your support. She really does. She wants you to support her.

[B]

Jesse, you have an understanding of this that rivals many doctors and maybe in some cases surpasses more than doctors surpasses some doctors. What is your actual occupation?

[A]

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[C]

So I've been in sales my whole life and so you're a communicator. There you go. So I've been in sales my whole life and actually a piece of that the sort of the previous five years I was doing learning and development. Okay. And what was interesting if I tie this back to how this has actually helped me with what I'm doing now on social media, when Covid hit I was out doing live talks, right? Like live presentations in different branches of our business around the country, some of which were in North Carolina. But I was doing that and getting comfortable speaking in front of an audience. And then Covid hit and I had to turn everything to video. So then I started to learn how to talk to a camera, you know, in a sort of a coherent way, which is hard. And so then what ended up happening is when I started actually prior to starting getting on social media at all I, I was looking at social media in January, and I just had this thought of, like, I can do that. Like, I can.

[A]

Anybody.

[C]

I don't know what I'm gonna do. Like, I don't know what I'm gonna talk about, but I can talk to my phone, you know, and, and so, and I kind of had this. I remember having this, this thought at the end of January of this year going, okay, I can. I'm gonna do this right? And. And it was around mid February where I, you know, Googled, how do you start a TikTok channel? And all. All of those things. And, you know, and then here we are.

[A]

And now you have. I. I think the most important advice I give people when they want to start, you know, any sort of platform on social media is, first of all, do it. You're so right. Anybody can do it. Anybody can talk to their phone. And second, just, just be really aware and passionate about what you're going to be presenting on, even if it's, if it's just like your general life or whatever it is, because you are going to get sick of talking about it if you don't honestly care about it 100%. Yeah, yeah. And so, so the fact that you're still doing it, you're still hanging out there and on this message, I think is pretty amazing because you're a communicator by nature and by training. From your perspective, what's the biggest communication mistake that couples are making when they're navigating menopause together, they're talking about the.

[C]

Thing itself, like lack of sex drive or a mood swing or rage episode. And they're. They're trying to communicate about that thing rather than talking about how it's making them feel. You know, this is something that my therapist has helped me understand. Right. Which is it's harder. It's hard to argue with somebody's feelings. Right. If I say I feel a certain way, you can't say, no, you don't. It's like, well, yeah, I do. Right. But if I say this mood swing happened because of this, or I, you know, I don't like it when you do that. Right. Well, now we're going to be defensive. Now we're going to be argumentative. So one of the things that I've helped mention, think through when they've reached out to me especially, is to say, sit down and say, when you lash out at me, for example, it makes me feel like you don't love me anymore. When you don't want to be intimate with me, it makes me feel like you're not attracted to me anymore. And I'm concerned that if that continues, what does that mean for our relationship? Right? Talk about. And then of course, you're opening the door for her to do the same, right? And she would probably say something like, well, when you judge me or blame me for these things that are out of my control, it makes me feel like you're not listening to me or you don't care about me. Right? But now we can actually have a two way conversation that isn't going to create defensiveness or isn't going to be argumentative. And from there, right? Then the next thing that happens, whatever that is, that's related to perimenopause, you can talk about it through that lens of feelings and actually get somewhere. And that open conversation really is the target, Right? Because you can't make this go away. And both people are right. It is hard for the guy, right? It is hard. It's hard to watch the woman you care about and love go through this. It's hard to not be intimate and not feel that connection. It's hard if she's having a mood swing, right? Any of these things are hard, but they're hard for her too. So how do you get to the point where you can talk about that? And that's from a communication standpoint, that's tr. That's where I try to focus.

[B]

Man, that's good. So, so intimacy, sex, like that's the biggest, probably the biggest communication barrier you think between a man and a woman when it comes to this.

[C]

It's definitely the biggest thing that men bring up. If there was, you know, they'll talk about mood swings. You know, no guy is saying, I wish my wife stopped having hot flashes, right? Like, I'm not, I'm not hearing that. The. Though I do remember the connection I first had to that which, you know, anecdotally I rolled over, I'm all bundled up and my wife has no covers on her at all. And I'm just. And I'm. And. But I had. What was cool is I actually had the. In that moment, I had the like, I know what this is like, I know, I know why this is happening, right? But when it. And the same thing with intimacy, right? Like you start. As long as you can have an understanding, you can work through it. But the one thing that guys seem to focus on the most about what's going on and that they reach out the most is how do I deal with this? How do I deal with this lack of connection, how do I deal with just simply not having sex? Which is hard.

[B]

Also, men are. We're very. We're very simple in this sense, I will say more so than women. We like sex.

[C]

We.

[B]

When we don't get sex, we get grumpy. And. And then if we go past grumpy, we start asking those existential questions, like, is she still attracted to me? Am I good enough for her? Is she thinking about or wanting a change in her life? And that's, like, when it gets deep and scary. And so. Not that I'm speaking from experience or anything, but, I mean, maybe a little bit. No, like, so. But it.

[C]

Like.

[B]

And I. But we talk about it.

[A]

Yeah, no, we do.

[B]

I get to the point where I'm like, what is. Why is this going to my br. And every time I do it, it helps. Just say. Just to say something always helps.

[A]

I would also say we Learned this from Dr. Dr. Becky, who's a very famous child psychologist, and she's all over the place. And in our conversations with her about children and parenting, she had this. When you start out by saying, if Penn said, babe, I know this is so hard for you. I know what you're going through is really hard. And it's making me feel like this. Like, if we're X, Y, Z. If you. If you start with the, like, I know. Like, the empathy of. I've. I know this is hard. You're sort of taking away so I don't have to then communicate, oh, my God, this is so hard. And get. I don't get as defensive if I understand. He knows how hard it is. Like, if. So I, like, you say rage incident. The. I have, like, actual rage, and I've been good about, like, bottling it up, but then it comes out another way. And so Penn will say, babe, I know this is so hard for you, and I know, but when you. When you're snapping it just me and no. And not the person who actually pissed you off, it makes me feel like, you know, X, Y. And so I'm like, oh, my God, you're so right. That's so unfair to you. You aren't the person that deserved my rage. Right. But I heaped it on.

[B]

Well, you also had self awareness right afterwards, which was amazing.

[C]

Yeah, 100%. And, you know, you bring up empathy, and I think that that's so important in this conversation for men. And then. And for me, I would even ratchet it up one more and say compassion. And I don't necessarily know off top of my head, the definitions of those two things. But it feels like. Or between the two, but it feels like compassion is empathy with action. Right? It's. I have the empathy, but I also want to do something about it. And when it. Versus, oh, that. That just seems hard. But it's. I see. It seems hard. And here's. Here's what I want to do, right? Or here's what I think I can do. Or tell me if this is what I can do. And where that comes in is into that libido conversation, that lack of sex drive, which is. It's helping. And it's like you said, Penn, right? Like, we're simple creatures. We. This is easy for us. Like, we're ready to go, you know? But what I'm trying to help men understand as well is there's the context of menopause, there's the context of intimacy. It isn't about the thing. It's about, like, how are you going to make your wife relaxed? How are you going to lift the mental load, right? The reason why she doesn't want to be intimate right now isn't because she, you know, there is the physiological hormonal effect, but it's because she's super stressed out. She's very overwhelmed. She's not relaxed. And that's where you've got to get to if you want something to happen. And. And I think men are sort of like, why isn't this happening right now? And they're stressed out and they're like, well, this is the solution.

[B]

We can do this when we're stressed, relaxed, sleepy, tired, wide awake. No, actually jumping out of an airplane. Like, we can. Yeah, right?

[A]

Yeah. I think you're so right. Because to de. Stress, that is what he would opposite. And. But I'm like, are you. Are. You're joking, right? Like, the house is on fire, the dog is barking. He's like, the kids are gone.

[B]

Totally. Like, the kids are out of the house.

[A]

The kids are out of the. The. We got, you know, boys at a sleepover, girls at college. Let's go. I'm like, oh, and let me just push that pile of laundry to the side. And yeah, yeah, it's.

[C]

It's. It's helping. It's in even the context of. Of menopause as a whole, even outside of intimacy, is something that men need to understand as well. Because I started learning a little bit just about the symptoms, right? This symptoms. What's a frozen shoulder? What's a hot flash? What is that really? Like, why does it happen? But what really hit me was when I started, like, capturing and clocking the fact that, like, when is this happening in a woman's life? Like, think about that for a second. Think about the. I looked into this, and it was the average age of perimenopause, though it definitely can start in the 30s and often does. It was something like 40 to 44. And then you have the average age of when a woman is, by salary, could be at the peak of her career, which was 44. And then you have the average age of when a woman is an empty nester, which was like 49. And then you have the average age of when a woman loses a parent, which was like 49 or 50. So it's. Think about this for a second. All of what she is going through is happening leading up to when she's at the height of her career, when she's raising teenagers, when she's dealing with the grief of one of them or both of them leaving the house. And during that same period of time, caring, likely for elderly parents and potentially losing one of them. That's what you also, as a man. Right. Because I'm educating husbands in this, which I try to be super clear about. But as a man, you have to understand that all of this is happening as well. And this is all that she's carrying. So you really have to clock all of that as well. Not just go, okay, got it. I understand. A hot flash is hard, right? No, that's. That's not. That's not gonna do it.

[A]

I have this issue where when I hear things that I'm going through. Oh, Pen. Can't actually, because I. I also deal with anxiety, and Penn would be like, no wonder you're anxious. You have this, this. This. I'm like, stop listing the things.

[B]

Yeah, I don't list them anymore because I do them in my head.

[A]

But then when you started listing the things. Things.

[B]

Did it just happen?

[A]

I'm good with the list of things, but you could not be more correct. And I. Penn and I have had these conversations that. So my daughter left for college however many months ago, and of course he was upset. He cried, like, but then he was able to process, like, the. The hormone, like, the. The loss of estrogen in our house because she left, and then the loss of estrogen in my body, like the wild hor. Just. It. It kind of impressed on me in a way that physically it did not on him. And he. And we would never make things a contest. It's not like that. But just. I can't thank you enough for talking about this under that lens. Because for women, I think that that's the reason why 50s and 60s women say, get so much better. Because this time of life is so freaking hard. Like all. With all that stuff. And then you add like diminishing hormones and metabolism and frozen shoulder and soreness of everything on top of that. It's. It's overwhelming. It's over. And. Okay, if you could give like one piece of advice of where a husband should start besides following you, like, where, where should men start if they want to, to. To be better partners to the women in their life.

[C]

Yeah. 100 I. It really begins with listening to and believing your wife. It just. I don't think that that's happening. And so that's why I say that.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Like, I can point you to this and I want you to. That and all the different things that I read and look into and whatnot. But what we're really trying to solve for here, what I'm trying to, like, I'm thinking about menopause and perimenopause on kind of a macro scale, right? Like what's going on with women and all husbands and that sort of thing. But to an individual husband out there that isn't doing that. You need to be concerned about your wife. Like, that's, that's that you don't need to actually worry and think about all other women on the planet. You need to be concerned about your wife. So go to her. Listen to her. She has. She will tell you what she's going through and she may not be able to articulate why. In every case, she may not be able to explain it because, again, she wasn't prepared for this. Right. Her doctor is probably not trained to support her on it or even gaslighting her about it. But that's actually not the point. The point is if you sit down and you allow her to tell you what she's going through and you don't question it, don't argue, you just believe her. She's not making this up. Start there and then she will say things that will probably make you curious. You're going to say, I want to look into that. Wait, what did you say? You have, like, what's going on? And it's. And you know, and it's not hard to find those answers. They're. They're out there. But start with your wife. Listen to your wife, believe what she's telling you, and then educate yourself a little bit about this.

[A]

What I love what you said is like the Women may not even have the words for it because we weren't trained in it either. And people like Dr. Mary Claire Haver, and there's so many. There's so many wonderful doctors who have. Have platforms and books now. And now, now it's a conversation. But our mothers didn't have access to that. And my mother was very like, my mother is so funny. She's always like, if Jesus takes me home early, let me tell you what's going on. So she always told me, but I am very rare. It is very rare that I know anything that, that a woman of my age would be prepared for this. So, husbands, when your wife is like, I. I actually just don't even know what's going on. Something feels off something. It's because she's probably didn't get the education she deserves. Her doctors don't have the education they, you know, that they owe her. So it's just, yeah, be patient and listen. I mean, because sometimes, you know, what, you know, what's going on with me is I just feel. I just feel crazy. Like, I just feel. And I don't know what. How do you qualify that in this? Like, that's not a box. I can check at the gyno office for symptoms like they don't have. I feel like I've lost my mind. But that some days is like, what it is.

[C]

There's so many women have said that they feel like they have dementia, right? They. They feel like they, they don't even recognize themselves in the mirror. Not just physically, but also mentally. Right. Like, I, they, they. And there's the grief aspect of it, too. That is hard for women to talk about. It's hard for women to articulate the fact that I now know as a woman when I look in the mirror and I don't recognize myself anymore, I'm also not going to see that girl again. Right. I have moved into a different place. And there are women who say, listen, on the other side of this, I feel the best that I've ever felt. Right? And that is totally true. But there's a period of time as that transition takes place where that might not be how she feels. And I think it's one of the other things that I've been trying to help husbands understand is there is this really real mental side to this. Right. It's not just these physical hormonal changes that you're noticing, but it's all the things that you're not. It's the things that you don't see that you also need to be aware of. Right. You can see that she has a hot flash, or you can, you know, see that maybe her shoulder hurts, or you can see those things. But are you seeing the grief that she's carrying? Are you seeing the. I remember talking with a woman who said the. Because I asked. I was like, why? Why did women not talk about this? I can't wrap my head around it. It's affecting a billion women. Y' all didn't want to bring it up, you know, like. And the answer that she gave was shame. And I was like, oh, man. Because I felt shame before, and it's the worst. It is a dark, dark thing. And if. If on top of everything else that, you know, I was talking to her, that you're going through as a woman, shame in the context of menopause is also part of this. And she said, yeah, because we were conditioned to act a certain way, care a certain way, be a certain way. Even society has conditioned us to look a certain way, feel a certain way, and menopause has just wrecked that. And now I feel like I can't be who it is that I'm expected to be. And there is a shame that comes with that. And because of that, I don't want to talk about it. And that was when I was like, oh, wow, right? I mean, there's been so much. Whether it's the symptoms, whether it's the. Whether it's that, whether it's any of the. There's just been this, like, constant pile. Like, I never. I just recently learned about oral health and the impact of menopause. And I'm like, her teeth are falling out.

[A]

Like, same. Yeah.

[C]

Like, what is going on?

[A]

You know, my gums are like, what? Yeah, I gotta hang out here, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It's crazy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I want to break the fourth wall down a bit here.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because here's Jesse. We're on social media right now. We're on YouTube. We're on a podcast. You know, we'll put a clip out on Instagram. Men suck at social media. We're just not good at it. We don't. Like if we. Like. If my friends see a video that I made, they text me and say, great video. I'm like, did you comment or like it? They're like, no, I don't do that. So I'm. I'm. I'm saying this to make sure that Jesse's not just speaking into an echo chamber here of specifically women who are nodding their heads and saying thank you, because, as you said, Your mission is to get this message to men. So I am curious what is like, do you look at your analytics on TikTok Instagram? What is the male female ratio on your page?

[C]

It's a great question and a couple things. So number one, really good news. The, the amount of men who have reached out to me directly or who have started to comment has definitely increased.

[B]

Good.

[C]

You remember when you were talking to Dustin and Mel the other day and you, and you use the, like, the, the loss of testosterone is like a green slope and skiing.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

You know, versus a black diamond.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[C]

Okay. Men are green sloping, slowly like pizza. Turning their way into this conversation. You know, women are just tearing up the slope.

[A]

We're helicopter skiing. Yeah, right.

[C]

Yeah, fully. Right. What's great about the way the analytics have worked is it, it started, you know, as you can imagine, like 98%, 2%. Right. Women in the comments, in the views. And I'm like, okay, cool. Because they were advocating and that was huge. Because what women were doing and still do a lot is they go, I'm sending this to my husband. I always send this to my husband. Yes. Another, another one that I love is, is, you know, women will say, every time your video comes out, I sit down with my husband and we watch it together. You know, which is, which is awesome. Right. I had amazing comments about, you know, saving marriages, saving relationships. You know, thank God I knew this. You know, I, I heard this now before it was too late. Right. I've also had the opposite of. I wish I had heard this. Right. It is, is too. I see all of that. But those analytics have definitely changed to be like 75, 25.

[B]

That's great.

[C]

Right now.

[A]

That's great.

[C]

Which is pretty awesome. So I've just seen that shift. But the comments, what I love is, I think looking at the analytics, I'm over 120/something,000 comments on TikTok in the, the six, seven months that I've been doing this. And that is a massive data mine of information around menopause in a way that's different than what you're going to get from the Internet or even a book. This is thousands, tens of thousands of women sharing their pain, sharing their joy, sharing what's working, sharing what's hard, asking questions. And other women are answering those questions. Like those conversations are happening in the comments. It's become my number one source for what I want to talk about. Right. Like, I don't chatgpt, like, give me an idea. You know, I've got, there's Plenty. I've got. I'm flooded with things to talk about. And then. And then recently, women reached out and said, you know, have started to say, could you do a post on this? Could you do a post on that? So they're actually looking for that advocacy, and then they're saying, you know, you do that, and we're going to do everything we can to make sure men. Men hear it. Which is. Which is amazing. And like I said, the pile. Women will talk about different symptoms that they are different things like anxiety, depression, recently adhd. Right? ADHD was. I was on a podcast with a man named Vic Williams, who's super interesting guy out of the uk, neurodiversity expert, speaker, author. And that was one of my first forays into understanding what ADHD felt like. And he used this description that just blew my mind and became again, one of those things that I just needed to talk about. But he said, okay, you're sitting in a movie theater and there's a thousand screens in front of you, and every single one of them is different. And you're trying so hard to focus on the one screen that you need to focus on. And when you finally say, that's the one I'm going to do, they all change. And then he said, so the exhaustion, the stress, the frustration, all of the things that come with adhd, and the fact that there is a sense of grief, right. There is a sense of even maybe shame, where he described it as, what's wrong with me? Why can't I understand this? Why can't I focus? Why can't I do this? Well, the same thing. I had been hearing that same thing from women about what their experience is with menopause. And he's like, yeah, and then there's women who have both.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I was just. And it was another one of those moments, and I've had a lot of them where I was just like, oh, wow, right? This is, this conversation is so important. We have to be bringing awareness to this. We have to be talking about it. And, and it just. I just keep getting fueled every single day. Stuff that I want to talk about.

[A]

I'm so glad that you do, because, like, for example, and they talk about, you know, you know, ways to end racism. It has to be the white people at the table, right? And I think ways to build empathy, improve partnerships, and improve allyship around menopause. It has to be the men, because women a. Like, maybe they. They're so sick of dealing with it, they don't want to talk about It. Or B, they've been screaming into the void for so long, so I think. I think men need to step up.

[B]

Speaking of which, we'll break down the wall again.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We don't normally talk about, you know, like, ideas in development with our group, but. Kim Anne Marie, you can jump in here if you'd like to as well. We are. We're trying to imagine and envision A, I'm calling it the Men's Menopause Choir for Men.

[A]

The Menopause Men's Choir.

[B]

Yeah. Where we will get risers. And we sing kind of a We Are the World style song about what men need to know. It can be funny in some ways, but also informative.

[A]

Yeah. So. Right. Yeah. So we've been. This. This is an idea that's been on our doc for, like, six months. We're like, we just need to get a bunch of men in choir robes.

[B]

Yeah. I think we need to collab with Jesse on this.

[A]

Of course. Yes, absolutely.

[C]

I love it. I actually. I had thought because I play guitar, too. Pen. And when. When I was doing sales, so I did. I would do sales presentations literally in front of a hundred people in Chicago, and I'd be the guy to come up and talk about a brand or something like that that I represented. And I always had my guitar, and I would just do it. Like, I would do a Neil diamond parody about the brand or something like that. And.

[B]

Perfect.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, and I was totally thinking, you know, it's been a while since I've done that, you know, and I love what you guys do. And it was making me think about it, and then I was like, how do we get this to men? And I started going down the, like, American Pie route. I'm like, alone. Long, long time ago.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

You know, like. Right. Like, it just. And then you get into, you know, testosterone was studied, but then this happened. And then this happened, and you go through, like, the sequence of the impact.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Of what got women to where we are today in the conversation around menopause. But it's yet to be written.

[A]

Well, tb, go write it.

[C]

It's all yours.

[B]

No, no, I'm not gonna write your thing. I think you should still write your thing. Mine is like a We are the world. Like, we're like. We're on risers.

[A]

And you definitely need to come in and be part of it and do the guitar solo.

[B]

Yep. We need. We need Jesse.

[A]

Yeah. We'll have to fly you in for this.

[B]

My ADHD is getting in the way of this.

[A]

Oh, okay. Because he's like. He's ready to do something.

[B]

Got too many things going on. So if I have, like, a day where I'm not doing anything, I'm gonna write this.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

But I'm gonna. I, like. It's all, you know, these songs, and you. You just nailed it. It's all about the specificity, right? Like, what are these specifics that people are nodding their heads to? And it sounds like you have, like, a total finger on the. On the pulse button of the What? I did that idiom wrong? Get your finger on the pulse of the.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I don't know. Yeah, it's you.

[A]

It's you.

[B]

You're the finger pulse guy.

[A]

Okay? So until, you know, we put out the men's menopause choir, the Men's Menopause Choir for Men, Men's Menopause Choir for Men. Until we see that, where can people find you and support the work you're doing?

[C]

Husbands for menopause, number four in the middle. And I'm on TikTok, Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and I'm there every day putting out new stuff every single day. You know, Loving the comments. Super grateful. You know, I'd love to just stress how grateful I am to this community in those comments that is. Is supporting this and advocating for it. I mean, they're. They're with the voice that's out there now, and the message that's out there now wouldn't be possible if it wasn't for so many women who are helping just propel it. Right? Like, if I was just relying on men to catch, you know, catch this right now, we'd be nowhere. Right? You know, but there are so many men who have. Because their wives have said, hey, check this out, or, you know, and what. I always. I always started from the beginning with this thought of, if this is hitting me the way it's hitting me, there has to be. I know there are so many more men out there in the world that are just like me that would want to do something about this or at least care enough to talk with their wife about it if they only knew about it, right? And I just know there are, and I'm now seeing that there are. Right? Because men are saying that this is helping them, and it's saying that this is helping their relationship. So that's been amazing, and I'm just. Just super grateful to the community to help get this out.

[B]

Just real quick, I'm adhding. I think I've got the hook for your song. So it would be like, hello, Perimenopause.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Your husbands, they still love you, but they don't know the cause.

[C]

Nice.

[B]

And the government's not helping out with their laws.

[C]

Truth. Right.

[B]

It's yours. It's yours. Yeah. The hook's important. You got to start with a hook and then go backwards to the rest.

[C]

I've been doing the lip sync things. I'm starting, you know, I'm starting slow. But I. I did find myself lip syncing to, like, Natalie, and Brugia's torn, you know, but I'm holding signs, right? Yeah. Or is that a little strange?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I. I somehow I. I. You guys probably do this too, but I. I do find myself in the middle of the production, just sort of, like, taking a step back and looking at myself as a. For going, what am I doing? That'll.

[B]

That'll pass. After the 1000th time that you do.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

I'll just tell you right now.

[A]

On the daily. Anne Marie and I look at each other like we went to college.

[C]

Totally.

[B]

We were recording. We recorded one of our neighbors screaming at the top of her lungs. What was it?

[A]

No, she was.

[B]

My ears are itchy.

[A]

We did something on Perimenopause. Whatever. And we had. We're like, no, Lindsay, just a little louder. And then Perry, like. Like, what are we doing so daily? Yeah, that never.

[C]

I.

[A]

For me. Yeah, that was yesterday. For me. That never ends. This has been a jo. Away. We love talking with you. Please stay in touch. And for the audience listening, just stay tuned for all of Jesse's parodies. And then our men's menopause men's choir for men, where Jesse will make sure Jesse's in that, too.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

So, okay, I think.

[B]

Yeah, I think he might just be the only person in it. We need to recruit more men.

[A]

We need to choir. Okay. Thank you so much.

[B]

Thank you.

[C]

Thank you both for this opportunity. Really appreciate it.

[A]

More on this after these words. All right, Pen. The holidays are here, and I'm finding myself caught up in the same pattern.

[B]

Ooh, pattern? What, like plaid or gingham? Like houndstooth?

[A]

Not that pattern. It's just every time I start shopping for my family, I tell myself, okay, I'm gonna be thoughtful. And then at the last minute, I just end up buying a gift card. But this year, no panic. I gave an aura frame.

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Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Turn. Terms and conditions apply.

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That's HOLDERNESS to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply. See Terms for details. Thank you to Jesse. Once again, I love the mission he's on. Obviously, I support it as a husband, as a man. What did you think of that conversation?

[B]

I learned even more. Like, he. So he's, he does speak in a language that I have not heard people speak about. Manic paws. Because he's speaking, bro.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Like, a little bit, if you know what I mean. Like, he's, I think he's aware of what's going on in our heads and he's acknowledging a lot of that while also obviously acknowledging what's going on with the woman. He touched on stuff that I haven't really liked, like, thought too much about. It's like, I think he's really focusing on communication. And you think about it like that's, that's the biggest thing, right? We went to, we, we started our together perimenopause journey when we went to this symposium in Austin, Texas, with these incredibly impressive women who are now all big stars in the perimenopause world of their own. And I was the only man there, right? The only man there. So no one was, no one was really speaking to me necessarily. They were incredibly grateful that I was there. But, you know, it was a bit of an echo chamber. It was women talking to other Women. And they even said when I was there, like, we need more people like you. But no one's explained it the way that Jesse has. And I think it's incredibly valuable. It's non judgmental. I think that there's no man who's going to sit down and feel judged or feel threatened or feel anything but like seen when this happens. What did you think?

[A]

Amazing. I mean, just like I said, you know, in conversations where we're, we're talking an underrepresented populations in the black and brown community, white people have to be the ones that have the top conversations about racism. If we're talking about equal pay and women in the workplace, men need to lead those conversations. Right? So it only makes sense that a man needs to or men need to participate in this conversation about women's health. Because at the bottom line, it's women's health and that is not a priority right now. And I just, I'm so grateful of first conversation and something that really stuck out for me, he just kind of said it in one sentence, was like, sometimes your partner, the women in your life aren't going to have the words for it either. I think there's a whole generation of women that don't even know that what they're experiencing are symptoms of perimenopause and menopause. They don't even understand that. So being patient with your partner to, to realize, okay, maybe this is because she no longer has estrogen in her body. So just being able to piece that together and with, and walk that shoulder to shoulder instead of like, like fighting against each other, I think is, is just going to be huge. And I'm so grateful that we were able to have that conversation. But as we're talking about aging and menopause, all this stuff, we do have a road to 50 update. So here's my road to 50. I had five sort of personal resolutions that I was gonna be working on. I'm working on a pull up, totally sucking at that. But we all know why I wanna do it. We've uncovered that. I just wanna be Linda Hamilton in Terminator 2.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

I'm trying to do better in the world by doing something nice for people every day. That turns out it's like just. It's a lot of raising money for food banks right now, which I think is good, but I'm struggling. I'm trying there too.

[B]

You are not struggling.

[A]

I'm not struggling. I'm doing a lot of food banks.

[B]

I'm telling you that you're doing great at that part. I'm trying because I live with you and I see you do great things for people every day. It may not be a stranger on the street, but you're doing your ministry of service to others. I see it every day. I'm just letting you know some of it's like personal stuff that we can't talk about. But you're doing it.

[A]

Yeah. So you're very sweet to say that. But one of the things I'm most excited about and I'm actually killing is I'm reading 50 books before I turn 50 and the accounting is weird. So I'm on book number 40 of 20, 25. But I think I'm on book number like 30. I think it's like book number 36 before I turn actually 50. So any. There's like different accounting methods here.

[B]

Yeah. And you started a little late, but you're. You've caught up very nicely. Did. How is your God? I can't remember the word.

[C]

This is.

[B]

We just did absorption.

[A]

I have a doc because I. There are. There are books on there that I will remember forever and that are my favorite and that I will remember distinctly. But there are also books I'm like. I read that. That's why I have to have a.

[B]

That's why I was asking.

[A]

Yeah. There are books that I'm like. I have no idea what that even was.

[B]

Well, having said that, you've read 40 something books. That's amazing. What. What are three that really stand out so far?

[A]

I thought a really interesting read was the Invisible Life of Addie Larue. I'm not really into magical realism, but it was sort of magical realism. Light Cloud Cuckoo Land was. It was a rough start for me, but a really good ending. Theo of golden by Alan Levi or Levy? Alan Levy. I think it was self published but it was such a. Such a like powerful story. The Many lives of Mama Love was. It read like fiction but it was somebody's actual real life. And that was amazing.

[B]

I love a book where it's.

[A]

I'm like, are you sure you went through this? Yeah. And then My Friends by Fredrik Backman I think is my new favorite book of all time.

[B]

My friends. You talked about that a ton.

[A]

He is such a gifted writer and I think English is not his first language so I think it's translated. But it was. It was pretty amazing.

[B]

This new kind of thing that you're doing is also allowed you. And this is not a complaint at all. I've just noticed to sometimes retreat to. To the bed.

[A]

I take to the bed.

[B]

At an earlier hour, I take to the bed.

[A]

So that brings it up. So Beth Wilker from Maryland emailed this question and saying I have a question regarding the 50 books in a year. How the heck are you doing it? With a full time job and family? I think I'm doing pretty well reading one book a month and I have to use read and air quotes because I've had to listen to them on audio as audio books to get them done for my book club's monthly meeting. Where are you finding the time? Time. Okay, Beth, I've talked about this before. I'm going to repeat this strategy here. I ha. I used to spend a lot of time doom scrolling. So I've replaced doom scrolling with reading. So I'm reading about. I would say in a good night, an hour night. But I will go upstairs.

[B]

You'll take to the bed.

[A]

I will take to the bed very early. We're talking like 8ish, 8:30.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I've seen a couple 7-30s and it's. And it's fine. Yeah, you've done your. To put down.

[A]

I love to get under my covers and I sort of just like wrap up and I have my, I have my Kindle. So here's another thing. I first of all, I count audiobooks as reading. Of course I count audiobooks as reading.

[B]

Who's the one who said that they don't count as reading?

[A]

Somebody wrote into this podcast, blasphemy is 100% reading. Are you going to tell me that somebody who's vision impaired if they're listening to a book doesn't count? No. So audiobook is reading. I do the things on Kindle where you can read and listen. So I read at night on my Kindle. And then some of them, not all of them pair this way. I think they call it like whisper sync. Whisper sync or something like that. So then I get into my car and I'm driving 20 minutes to go take my son to basketball practice or pick him up from basketball practice. So then I'll listen on the way there. So I will get through a book if I'm really on a tear in like a couple days.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I'll take a beat until I find a new one. But that is how I'm doing it. I'm not just flipping through the pages every night. So you can call that cheating if you want to, but I have all the words in my brain. But I just want to also like. So I have replaced doom scrolling. I still recently, because some stuff's been happening, y'. All. I've been a little on edge. I have been doing more doom scrolling at night and have not because the. I haven't caught. I haven't found my next good book yet.

[B]

We can't expect you to be just a perfect fembot who does everything right. Sorry. Fembot is from Austin Powers. Sorry. You've definitely expanded your literary mind this year. I think that's really cool. It is impossible to not get on social media and just check stuff out every once in a while, especially if you're someone like you, who cares about the future of the world.

[A]

It's hard, but, yeah. So, Beth, that's how I'm doing it. But also, there were periods in my life when I probably read three books in a year. Especially when we were writing books. When we were writing books. I don't really. I don't really want to read other people's books because I don't want to. So I think there have been. There's been a long time I haven't read and makes me so sad because I love to read.

[B]

When I was in my 20s and I had a super Nintendo, I don't think I opened a book for two years. I don't think I looked at a book in a bookstore. So there are seasons for this.

[A]

There are seasons for this.

[B]

So because you've been doing this and there's really nothing. I can't just sit and watch TV the whole time she's reading a book. I just feel like an asshole when I do that. I have been reading more books, too, and I think I'm sleeping better. I think I get to bed at a decent time. It challenges my brain a little bit at the end of the night. And so I'm glad that you did this because I've really enjoyed getting into some serious, hard science fiction.

[A]

Yeah. The reason. Oh, my gosh. It's challenging your brain because the stuff you read is like a textbook. I don't know how you get through it. He reads me a paragraph and it's like instant Ambien. I am out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It is very dense.

[B]

Well, it's. It's. Look, astronomy and orbital physics have become mainstream in the last month because of three. Yeah, three. I. Atlas Man. Like, there's like. People are starting to ask, like, why is the comet not. Not turning red?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And so they're like. But that stuff I've been reading about for 10 years now.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Like, there was a. You didn't ask me about any of this. I'm sorry, like, we're talking about your book road to 50. But, y', all, we're gonna run out of materials on this planet pretty soon, and we're gonna have to go up there and find some comets and asteroids and get it from there. And in order to do that, it takes a lot of, like, engineering and imagination. And so I'm reading a ton about that.

[C]

That.

[B]

And it's. It's doable, it's expensive. No government's ever going to pay for it. But it's fascinating.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Could become part of our economy, like, sooner than we think.

[A]

If you made it to this part of the. Of the podcast, I want you to screenshot your phone. Yeah. Screenshot this on YouTube. I want you to send us a DM on Instagram. And I would say I actually made it to the part of the podcast where Pen got started on space.

[B]

What is the one thing we're going to need more of in the next 20 years with the dawn of AI material for that? Computer chips.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Those are made out of things that, first of all, like, one country owns most of the mountains that you can mine them from. But also they're, like, finite amounts, and the amount of data that we're accumulating in these servers is becoming near infinite. And so we're going to run out of eventually, I don't know when stuff on Earth to make these things with.

[A]

So we're going to need to go to space.

[B]

Space. This may be 100 years, I don't know. But it's so thrilling to me to think that there's going to be like, an, you know, outer space economy at some point.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

It's not really. No, no, no.

[B]

What's going on there?

[A]

I am fascinated by it, but there's so much going on here that I'm like, okay, somebody else has to worry about space because, like, I don't know, I just. My jeans aren't fitting right now and I just can't be bothered. Anyway, I love you guys for listening.

[B]

And thank you to Jesse. Like, we are all less dumb thanks to you today, especially the dudes. Laugh Lines is written and produced by Penn Holderness, Kim Holderness and Anne Marie Tapke, with original music by Penn Holderness. It is filmed, edited and live produced by Sam Allen, although this week it has been filmed and live produced by Anne Marie Tapke and hosted by acast. As always, we love to hear from you. Please write to [e-mail] or leave a voicemail at you. Still got it, babe.

[A]

323-36439.

[B]

That memory still kicking.

[A]

I know.

[B]

We will talk to you soon on Laugh Lines. Okay. Hello there, mom and dad. Or mom and mom or dad and dad. Or parents. Are you about to spend five hours in the car with your beloved kids this holiday season? Driving to old granny's house?

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Let us set the scene. I'm picturing screaming, fighting back to back hours of K Pop Demon Hunter soundtrack on repeat.

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