Mental Breakdowns & Moonshot Goals with Mike Massimino

Summary

Podcast Summary: Laugh Lines with Kim & Penn Holderness
Episode: Mental Breakdowns & Moonshot Goals with Mike Massimino
Release Date: July 29, 2025

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Introduction

In this emotionally charged episode of Laugh Lines with Kim & Penn Holderness, the hosts delve deep into personal struggles and ambitious goal-setting strategies with their special guest, Mike Massimino. A former NASA astronaut, Mike brings a wealth of experience and inspiration, offering listeners valuable insights into overcoming obstacles and achieving seemingly impossible dreams.

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Navigating Personal Challenges

The episode begins with Kim and Penn discussing their feelings about their daughter leaving for college, highlighting the universal experience of pre-grieving and emotional turmoil that accompanies significant life transitions.

Notable Quote:
Kim Holderness ([03:36]): "I have been very open that I know I'm going to start feeling feelings about our daughter leaving for college. But now they started feeling them. I can't stop feeling them."

Penn and Kim candidly share their coping mechanisms, such as setting schedules and plans to reassure themselves that life will continue smoothly. They acknowledge the complexity of their emotions, balancing pride and happiness for their daughter's achievements with their own sense of loss and anxiety.

Notable Quote:
Penn Holderness ([05:37]): "And she was asking me the question about when we should get the flight to leave after dropping her off. And I said, I think it's time that we just go. I think she's going to be ready for us to go."

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Insights from Mike Massimino

Mike Massimino joins the conversation to provide a broader perspective on handling failure and setting ambitious goals. He emphasizes that true character is revealed when facing setbacks, reinforcing the idea that perseverance is key to success.

Notable Quote:
Mike Massimino ([07:44]): "We find out who we are when we're faced with a failure."

Mike shares his personal journey of overcoming medical disqualifications to achieve his dream of becoming a NASA astronaut. His story underscores the importance of resilience and creative problem-solving in the pursuit of one's goals.

Notable Quote:
Mike Massimino ([26:38]): "It's important to see failure as part of the journey and not a reason to give up."

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Moonshot Goals and Goal-Setting Philosophies

A central theme of the episode is the concept of "moonshot" goals—ambitious, seemingly unattainable objectives that push individuals beyond their comfort zones. Mike defines a moonshot as a large-scale, transformative goal that requires dedication and innovative thinking.

Notable Quote:
Mike Massimino ([21:12]): "A moonshot is a big goal. It's something that seems almost impossible, but with perseverance, it becomes achievable."

Kim and Penn explore the different approaches to goal-setting. While Kim tends to set lofty, high-reaching goals, Penn prefers to lower his expectations and exceed them. This dynamic leads to a meaningful discussion on how balancing ambition with realism can lead to sustained motivation and success.

Notable Quote:
Penn Holderness ([22:31]): "My philosophy on goal setting is to lower your expectations and then exceed them."

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Overcoming Obstacles: Mike's Journey to NASA

Mike recounts his multiple attempts to join NASA, despite being repeatedly told he didn't meet the requirements due to his eyesight. His determination led him to innovative vision training techniques, ultimately enabling him to qualify and fulfill his dream.

Notable Quote:
Mike Massimino ([24:00]): "No one knows what they're doing, and people always have obstacles. It's about finding a way to get around them."

His experience illustrates the importance of not taking "no" for an answer and finding alternative paths to achieve one's objectives. Mike's story serves as a powerful testament to the impact of persistence and adaptability.

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Environmental Stewardship and the Perspective from Space

A poignant moment in the episode is Mike's reflection on viewing Earth from space. He describes Earth as a "paradise" and stresses the planet's fragility, advocating for better environmental stewardship.

Notable Quote:
Mike Massimino ([33:17]): "Earth is the most compelling thing to look at when you're in space. It's beautiful and fragile."

This perspective shifts the conversation from personal goals to global responsibility, encouraging listeners to consider their role in preserving the planet for future generations.

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Collaborative Goal-Chasing and Personal Growth

The discussion highlights the benefits of collaboration in achieving big goals. Mike shares anecdotes from his time at NASA, emphasizing the importance of teamwork and mutual support in overcoming challenges.

Notable Quote:
Mike Massimino ([30:23]): "Collaboration makes dream chasing more effective."

Kim and Penn reflect on their own goal-setting practices, recognizing the value of sharing ambitions and seeking support from others to maintain motivation and accountability.

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Final Reflections and Takeaways

As the episode wraps up, Kim and Penn share personal updates on their "Road to 50" goals, demonstrating the episode's themes in their own lives. They discuss the balance between ambition and self-acceptance, reinforcing the episode's core message about the importance of setting and pursuing meaningful goals.

Notable Quote:
Kim Holderness ([43:12]): "I'm averaging about that [10,000 steps]. The other is reading 50 books before I turn 50, and I'm on like 23."

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Conclusion

This episode of Laugh Lines with Kim & Penn Holderness masterfully intertwines personal stories with expert insights, offering listeners a compelling narrative on handling emotional challenges and setting ambitious, transformative goals. Mike Massimino's inspiring journey serves as a beacon for anyone striving to achieve the extraordinary, reminding us that resilience, collaboration, and a broader perspective are essential components of success.

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Key Takeaways:

• Resilience in the Face of Failure: Personal setbacks reveal true character and offer opportunities for growth.
• Ambitious Goal-Setting: Moonshot goals push individuals beyond their perceived limits, fostering innovation and perseverance.
• Importance of Collaboration: Sharing goals and seeking support can enhance the effectiveness of goal pursuit.
• Environmental Responsibility: A broader perspective, such as viewing Earth from space, can inspire greater care for our planet.
• Personal Growth Through Shared Experiences: Transparent discussions about emotions and challenges can lead to healthier coping mechanisms and stronger support systems.

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Stay Connected: For more inspiring discussions and to join the conversation, consider subscribing to Laugh Lines with Kim & Penn Holderness on your preferred podcast platform. Share your thoughts and experiences by leaving a voicemail at 323-364-3929 or emailing [e-mail].

Transcript

[Kim Holderness]

Asking questions doesn't make one a difficult patient. It makes you an advocate for you.

[Penn Holderness]

Life can be hard enough. So what do you do when you receive a medical diagnosis that changes everything? How do you navigate feeling like you have to fight to be heard when it comes to your health? These are big, scary questions and there's no one size fits all answer. That's why BetterHelp teamed up with host and licensed therapist He Su Jo to create Mind if We Talk? A new podcast that looks at life's difficult moments through the lens of therapy. On the latest episode, Jesu sits down with comedian Ryan Sickler to talk about the diagnosis that turned his life upside down and the tools that helped him move forward. If you or someone you love has ever felt the weight of medical stress, this episode is for you. Listen and subscribe to Mind if We Talk Wherever you get your podcasts and remember, your happiness matters.

[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

It's time to come clean with yourself. Let's be completely honest. Are you happy with your job? Like, really happy? The unfortunate fact is that a huge number of people can't say yes to that. Far too many of us are stuck in a job we've outgrown or one we never wanted in the first place. But still, we stick it out and we give reasons like what if the next move is even worse? I've already put years into this place. I can't afford to take a wrong step, and maybe the most common one. Isn't everyone kind of miserable at work? But there's a difference between reasons for staying and excuses for not leaving. It's time to get unstuck. It's time for Strawberry Me. They match you with a certified career coach who helps you go from where you are to where you actually want to be. Your coach helps you get clear on your goals, create a plan, build your confidence, and keeps you accountable along the way. So don't leave your career to chance. Take action and own your future. With a professional coach in your corner. Go to Strawberry Me Career to claim a special offer. That's Strawberry Me Career. We're going to do this now. Yeah, with this. This look.

[Mike Massimino]

What is I think we find out who we are when we're faced with. With a failure.

[Kim Holderness]

So you are a fan of the Katy Perry's and the Gayle Kings. Like you're a fan of celebrities taking these space flights.

[Mike Massimino]

Did I say that?

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. We get older every day. Got more wrinkles.

[Kim Holderness]

That's okay.

[Mike Massimino]

Yeah, we're laughing.

[Penn Holderness]

When we age, life is like a comedy stage. And that's why we got land.

[Kim Holderness]

Hey, I'm Kim Holderness.

[Penn Holderness]

And I'm Penn Holderness. And thank you for joining us on Laugh Lines. We're so glad you're here.

[Kim Holderness]

If you have a bathroom, Advil, purse, Advil, travel Advil, car Advil, car Advil, then you're in a safe space. We are your people.

[Penn Holderness]

We're leaning into that sort of thing here. And, you know, we're just talking about life. Speaking of which, how you doing, babe? We, like, we were about to hit record and I said, how you doing? And this is. I'm gonna do my impression of Kim. Fine.

[Kim Holderness]

We have a very exciting show for you today. Before I have my mental breakdown. My. My menti b. A New York Times bestselling author professor, former astronaut Mike Massimino. He's here to help us, like, with goal setting, which I'm very excited about, actually. Okay. So, yes, I.

[Penn Holderness]

What's going on?

[Kim Holderness]

I don't know. Update. So I have been very open that I know I'm going to start feeling feelings about our daughter leaving for college. But now they started feeling them. I can't stop feeling them. And I think it's very funny because.

[Penn Holderness]

Like, you're smiling and laughing right now. I don't know what to do with this. I'm not giving you space.

[Kim Holderness]

No, no, no.

[Penn Holderness]

I've got room for you here right now to go. Can I give them a little bit of an update on this? Okay. So we were on a plane to. And first of all, for some reason, I get really emotional on planes, too.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes, Everything on planes makes me cry.

[Penn Holderness]

There's this really, really not emotional movie called Draft Day with Kevin Costner that I cried during once because. Because I must be the altitude. Plus, like one glass of wine. You will cry at anything, anything on an airplane.

[Kim Holderness]

I watch Survivor because, you know, CBS has a thing on Delta and I'll watch a Survivor episode. I'm like, they're just so brave. It's ridiculous.

[Penn Holderness]

So anyway, so Kim was trying to. And we talked to Dr. Demore about this. Kim was continuing to cope with. And this is all about our daughter going to college, trying to cope with that transition by Being kind of the schedule Bo. And by like, making plans and setting up schedules. And that was. That was her way to deal with it, which is a way for her, I think, say that, like, everything is going to be fine. Right. Life's going to go on. And she was asking me the question about when we should get the flight to leave after dropping her off. And there was one flight at the day after move in. There was one flight at like 8am and one flight at 8pm and Kim's like, I think we need to take the 8:00pm, obviously. And I was like, we're just going to be sitting around like. Like parents, just, like, hovering over her. And you said, well, what if she needs something that day? And I said, I think it's time that we just go. I think she's going to be ready for us to go. And then that was. That was your first. Those were your first tears of this entire thing. And I booked the 8pm Yeah, I know you did. I know you did. First of all, I'm super proud of you for getting to this point. Yeah, right. For. And I'm sorry that you. That the waterworks have continued. Was. Did something happen today to cause this to. To bubble back up?

[Kim Holderness]

No.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay.

[Kim Holderness]

So it's just gonna be a problem because we have a month.

[Penn Holderness]

And then she's gonna leave, and we've got four years.

[Kim Holderness]

But I think by then maybe it'll be better. But when I leave, I'm like, pre grieving.

[Penn Holderness]

You're preving.

[Kim Holderness]

I usually. So here's my M.O. and here's what I talked to my therapist about. Up until an event, I will get very nervous, anxious. I build a. You know, before we went on the Amazing race, I had 27 Google Docs. Plan, plan, plan. While I'm doing. While the event, while the conversation, while. While anything is happening, I sort of freeze. But I'm fine. Like, I can get through the motions and I'm fine. It's usually days after. And you've seen this, like.

[Penn Holderness]

And there's no controlling it at that point. It's a tidal wave.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. So, like, you know, if I have a tough conversation with somebody I love, I can totally do that. And then I'm totally fine. And then three days later, I'm like, why is my back hurting? Why am I flat on the floor? Why can't I stop crying? So it's like, it takes me days. So this is weird because it's before. It's the before times, and I just.

[Penn Holderness]

Was not expecting it would call this during. I Think that the. The act of. Because I see it every day. Lola talks about what she's going to put in her dorm. She's talking about plans. She's, like, already taking classes and doing reports, and there's all these. We're reminded of the fact that she's going to college eight or nine times a day by something going on in this house. So I wouldn't call this before.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, no, you're right. You're right. Yeah. And I think just like everything else. What do you got, therapist Sam? I'm just.

[Mike Massimino]

I just want to say this is unprecedented, though. This is not a feeling you've ever.

[Kim Holderness]

Had to deal with. So I think it's fair to be like, the emotions are new. Yeah. And I think everything else you were describing is nervousness and about an event.

[Penn Holderness]

A thing that you have to perform.

[Kim Holderness]

You know, on the Amazing Race or if you have to give a speech, that's you. This is. This is not you.

[Mike Massimino]

This is.

[Kim Holderness]

Sam has done an incredible amount of therapy, and it really shows the moments like this. No, that's so true, Sam. Like, I. I think I've read a lot about it, so I think, like, all these people do it every single year. It'll be hard, but I can do it. I just. It's weird that I can't, like, control it because I have a job to do and I have, you know.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. But this is a great start. Tell me if I'm getting this right. Therapy, Sam.

[Kim Holderness]

Therapy.

[Penn Holderness]

Talking about it is better than pushing it down at this point, because I think the pushing down is what leads to the uncontrollable. It coming up. Right. So, like, we're taking a really nice step here because you're putting words to your feelings, and you haven't been able to do that yet. We can go back to, like, about a month ago when I said something that started making me cry on this show, and your response was, pretty soon there's going to be a person missing at the dinner table.

[Kim Holderness]

So hard to cry right now.

[Penn Holderness]

So that was a month ago. This. Doesn't this seem much more healthy, what we're seeing here? I'm actually, like. I'm excited. Like, good things are going to start happening to you now that you're able to. To process this, right?

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. Yeah, totally. And I have to say, I'll just, like, be really honest and transparent. My. My instinct when I feel feelings is to try to not feel them. And I'm. I've really buttoned down. Like, we don't drink that much, but this summer, we'd been on vacation, whatever. So there's been a little more drinking. But my feeling is like, oh, I wanna scroll, I wanna eat something. I wanna drink something. And I'm forcing myself to not.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

Do those things.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. Not. Not for that reason. You do it if you're celebrating.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. So we have an agreement in our house that if we. We will have a drink if we're celebrating something, but when we're stressed, but not when we're in discomfort. And to feel that. But my instinct is to, like, try to find ways to not feel it. So I just don't know how to feel it.

[Penn Holderness]

You're doing it right now.

[Kim Holderness]

It's. I. I don't like it.

[Penn Holderness]

That's fine. No one likes it, I think. So you're like. It's. It's coming to the surface now, and you're talking about yourself in a more healthy way. I think the next thing is going to be actually saying with words what you're really feeling. And you're probably scared to say that because you think maybe that'll make it even more real than it is right now. I'm not a doctor. I'm just.

[Kim Holderness]

I'll tell you the one question that works for me. This is my. This is how I deal with my anxiety. Okay. What is the worst thing that could happen? Oh, yeah, we do a whole talk on this, Sam. We have this whole, like, getting out of your comfort zone. We just flew to Denver to talk about this, and that's literally the first thing that we ask. And. But that's the thing. Like, college for a girl is scary. Especially, like. So I play that out in my head. And so I can't let myself do that, because is it likely to happen? Which is the next question you ask. And. No. She's smart. This is me. She is so excited. She is so excited.

[Penn Holderness]

Bubbly. She's bubbly. It's almost bubbly. Over.

[Kim Holderness]

She is so excited. So I can't wait to talk to this astronaut. Like.

[Penn Holderness]

No, Mike. So my idea.

[Kim Holderness]

How do we read your goals? So I have to say, it's the most confusing emotion because I think I'm grieving. But at the same time, when somebody you love is happy, you get to share in that and you get to feel that. So I feel that too, you know, because they say you're, like, as sad as your saddest or you're, like, as unhappy as your unhappy or something like that. 100% true, by the way. But when you have a kid who's really Happy. It is so much fun to see. So, like, this part of my chest is very happy and light, but this part feels like I'm being stabbed. Right.

[Penn Holderness]

So what's the worst that could happen? You've gotten there.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

Is it likely to happen? You've raised a really strong, independent woman and she's going to a safe university. So those things are good. Sam, while we're doing this, if there's a way that you could grab some, some tissue, I'll tell you what we're gonna, we're gonna take, we're gonna take a hair and makeup break and then.

[Kim Holderness]

You know, what your goals, you know, we're going to talk about before then though, you know, that's. This is going to make me happy. Before hair and makeup.

[Penn Holderness]

We're going to do this now? Yeah, with this, this look.

[Kim Holderness]

What is. We're going to do a quick non sponsored segment. Okay. I for years have used l' Oreal Voluminous mascara. I love it. And I always, just in case I have a random menti be, I always use the waterproof mascara. I was in Denver giving a speech last week and I forgot most of my makeup. So I went to a Walgreens and I bought some. They did not have the waterproof version. I just bought the regular mascara. This is my fault. But before I put. Before I had a Menti b. It looked great. So not sponsored. My favorite mascara is l' Oreal Voluminous. Waterproof. Waterproof.

[Penn Holderness]

And just to be clear, that's not what you have on right now?

[Kim Holderness]

Sadly, no.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay, I gotcha.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, I'm gonna go fix this brb. More on this after these words. This episode is brought to you by IQ Bar, our exclusive snack sponsor.

[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

Oh yeah, I've seen you rocking some new polish over there hon.

[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

We know there are a lot of kids podcasts out there, but we found something we think you're gonna love.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, while most of those podcasts are made and hosted by adults, we found one that's for kids. Made by kids and hosted by kids.

[Kim Holderness]

Wild Interest.

[Penn Holderness]

Wild Interest. It is super well produced with original music, great sound design and a whole audio mission designed to calm and regulate kids.

[Kim Holderness]

You know, we talk a lot about ADHD in our podcast and one really important thing you can do to thrive with ADHD is regulate your nervous system.

[Penn Holderness]

Absolutely. When people get dysregulated, even people without adhd actually Kim, it can snowball and make regular life, well, difficult. Well, Wild Interest is actually designed to help regulate kids nervous systems. There's calm music and thoughtful subject matters and the vocal tone and cadence are all made with the same result in calm and happy kids.

[Kim Holderness]

Parents, try the Wild Interest podcast. You'll be hooked. And it's in its second season, so there's tons of episodes to enjoy.

[Penn Holderness]

Wild Interest follow wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kim Holderness]

Hey, friends, I'm back. I did some deep breathing exercises for 15 minutes and I feel better. So thank you for allowing that onto our regularly scheduled program.

[Penn Holderness]

Right. So we've got an astronaut on the show.

[Kim Holderness]

It is like, it is giving me whiplash, the U turn we are making in this podcast.

[Penn Holderness]

Although, like, is this a fun challenge to see how we can segue this?

[Kim Holderness]

How can we segue?

[Penn Holderness]

You know, it really. We were just talking about our daughter and how proud we are of all these goals that she set and achieved to make it into college. She set some really, really lofty goals. She got into a school she never would have expected to get into. Probably like a one in a million shot. Well, there's an astronaut who knows a thing or two about one in a million shots.

[Kim Holderness]

Zing. 10 out of 10. Yes.

[Penn Holderness]

Ain't my first rodeo. No, but it is kind of. We wanted to get him on here because my philosophy on goal setting is not your favorite.

[Mike Massimino]

Right.

[Kim Holderness]

It. His philosophy on goal setting is lower your expectations.

[Penn Holderness]

Right. And then you exceed them.

[Kim Holderness]

I am shoot for the stars. And if you end up here, that's cool, too. So it was interesting that you pitched having Michael Massimino as a guest today.

[Penn Holderness]

Because he's all about, like, going after that one in a million shot. I. I don't know if I agree with him, but he's an astronaut, so it's my favorite type of person. So I figured we'd give it a go.

[Kim Holderness]

I love this so much because if there's somebody who can encourage you and your goal setting journey, it is an astronaut.

[Penn Holderness]

That's right.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. So let's introduce him.

[Penn Holderness]

Michael J. Massimino is a former NASA astronaut, a veteran of two space flights, a professor of mechanical engineering at Columbia University, and he is the senior advisor for space programs at the Intrepid Sea, Air and Space Space Museum. Mike appears regularly on television. I've seen him all the time, especially on the Big Bang Theory. He had, like, a recurring role in it, so your mom would know all about that. Mike's book, Spaceman and Astronauts Unlikely Journey to Unlock the Secrets of the Universe, is a New York Times bestseller. And his latest book, the one that I'm excited to talk about, Moonshot, A NASA Astronaut's Guide to Achieving the Impossible, is what we will be discussing today.

[Kim Holderness]

Welcome, Mike.

[Mike Massimino]

Thanks for having me.

[Kim Holderness]

We're. We're so excited. Okay. My husband is a huge space nerd. He was so excited, he's been studying your books.

[Penn Holderness]

Mike, what was it like? I mean, you were hours and hours in open space, and I know you had work to do, but there's very few people who can. Who can describe that feeling. What's it like?

[Mike Massimino]

It's. It's pretty intense. You're working, you're doing your job fixing stuff or whatever it is you're doing on your spacewalk. Like we were working on the Hubble for my missions. But the view around you is, what's that? Being out there in that environment and looking at the planet. My. My thoughts were we're living in a paradise. That's what. That's what I realized. We were very lucky to be here. It's very beautiful. It's also very fragile. You can see the thinness of the atmosphere. And also going around the planet. So many times I got this sense of. Of that. Of home. My perception of home changed. Where when you see the. When you see the planet, it's an entire. You know, you go around different parts of it over and over again. I saw my concept of home change when I was a little kid. I grew up in Franklin Square, New York, and that was my home. And then New York City. I kind of identified with the New York area as my home as I grew up. And then I was an American, you know, so the United States was my home, where I felt like when I would think of home. But now when I think of home, I think of Earth.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh, I love that. I love that. And I think. I wish if we all took that sort of perspective, maybe we would take better care of the Earth itself, as opposed just to being so protective of our specific area. Can you tell us what a moonshot is as it relates to a goal or a dream?

[Mike Massimino]

I think moonshot is. Was the term given to the Apollo program back in the. Back in the 60s when they were trying to achieve this. This big goal of landing people on the moon by the end of that decade, by the end of the 1960s. And that was such a lofty goal that there was. It was called it. Sorry, it's a moonshot, you know, trying to get to the moon. And. But I think over the years, it's gotten the. The other connotation and definition of it is that it's also a big goal. Now. There have been other books named moonshot. One was about the vaccine for the COVID 19 epidemic. And so when you're thinking of a big goal, I think people often describe. Would describe that as a moonshot.

[Penn Holderness]

Kim and I have different ways that we set goals. Right. I don't know what it is about me. Kim's more like you. She likes to set lofty goals and go after them. And even if she comes up short, she feels like that's a good target to set for. I like to lower my expectations as far as possible and exceed them. And so we have this like, totally different dynamic. And when I heard that there was an astronaut who had Kim's philosophy, I'm actually, because I'm such a space geek, I'm super willing to hear what you have to say about this, about, about your philosophy.

[Kim Holderness]

But the value of setting a specific goal.

[Penn Holderness]

Exactly.

[Mike Massimino]

You only have one lifetime to try to, to do these things that you, that you find interesting or that you want to dedicate your, your, your career to. So you, you might as well give it the best try you can. And it's, it's probably not going to be easy. If it's a, if it's a worthwhile goal, it's not going to be easy. So you're going to be met with some obstacles. And if you need some education to get to where you want to go, and it's going to be difficult to do that, but that's going to be worthwhile even if you don't get to that end goal. Getting through school is a good thing and puts you in a good spot or getting the right experience that you think you need to get to where you want to go, whatever it might be, you know that that path is really what, what matters.

[Penn Holderness]

So it is interesting. I did want to be an astronaut. You and I had these sort of a similar story. And then they veered off like crazy because I went into the Air Force Academy to like, a recruiting meeting and I was super into into it, and my buddy was there and I was wearing glasses and I was 6 foot 5. And so I walked in there and they were like, well, you're too tall and you can't see. I'm sorry, you can't ever be a pilot in the Air Force. And that was it for me. I was like, I guess I'm gonna do something else. Then I read your book and I, I see, I see the parallels about the eyesight and then the crazy story about the hard contacts, which I don't know how many people know about these hard contacts. I'd love you to take the story from. Tell me how you were able to get into NASA even after being told that you can't.

[Mike Massimino]

The late 80s to mid-90s was the time that I was Trying. I finally got picked in 96, but back then you had to see pretty well without contacts or glasses. And I couldn't see well enough. And I was medically disqualified. So I interviewed. I applied twice and was rejected outright from NASA. NASA looks for astronauts. Every few years. They accept applications. The third time, I got an interview, and the interview includes a medical exam. And I failed that eye exam. So I show up to work on Monday, and there was a guy named Bob Overmeyer, who was a former astronaut, who was my boss. I was working down in Houston for an aerospace contractor. He sees me say, you know, what happened? I got, ah, you know. You know, I got. I got failed in medical. I got. I got DQ'd. And he goes, he knew right away. He goes, with the. With the eyesight? And I go, yeah, how'd you know? He goes, oh, that gets everybody. Because I hated those exams, you know, they were terrible. So he says, you know what you gotta do, don't you? I go, no, what's that? He says, you got to dehydrate yourself before you take your eye exam. Like, what you got? I go, what are you talking about? He said, well, what he would do is he would. He would schedule his eye exam for a Monday every year. You know, whatever. Whatever. Whatever month he was going to be doing the same or whatever, he would schedule on a Monday, and on Friday, he wouldn't. From Friday till that Monday, he wouldn't drink anything and he would run the whole weekend and dehydrate himself. And I said, how does that work? He said, oh, it makes the eyes stiffer and the light bends differently. So, like, okay. So then later that afternoon, I'm at the Johnson Space center, and my friend Kevin Kriegel, who was a current astronaut at this time, he says, what happened? You know, because he knew I was interviewing and Kenny was rooting for me. And I said, well, you know, I got DQ'd. And right away, just like Bob says, your eye. Your eyes was the eye exam. I go, yeah. Oh. He goes, I hated those things. He goes, you know what you got to do, don't you? And I go, what's that? Because you got to drink a lot of water.

[Penn Holderness]

So one person says, dehydrate, and someone says, you have to drink a lot of water.

[Mike Massimino]

It makes it more viscous. And the light. I don't even know if you knew what viscous meant, but he's like, makes it more viscous and bends the. The light differently or something like this. So. So I was like, okay, sure. But it made what it made me realize, hearing those two stories is no one knows what the heck they're doing and that people have always had obstacles. They're just different. You know, sometimes it's a. It's a. It's an academic one. Sometimes it's a skill that you need to acquire something, whatever might be there. These. There's these different things. And just in the medical exam was just another hurdle I needed to figure out a way to get around. And so I went through something called vision training. I found out about this where it was a natural way to improve your eyesight with exercises and so on. And. And I found an optometrist willing to work with me on that. And I was able to train my eyes and my brain to do better on an eye chart and was able to re. Qualify so I could apply again. And no guarantee I'd be even be looked at, but at least I could apply again. And that was. That was important to me that at least I could try. And that's. That's what I did. And I was picked up on my. On the next try, on the next time. They. They had a selection in 1996.

[Penn Holderness]

So you fixed your eyes without contacts?

[Mike Massimino]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

That's not normal. Right? Like, most people don't do that.

[Mike Massimino]

No. I mean, well, yeah, yeah, no, it wasn't. But, you know, I didn't have any. Any other recourse. It was what it is you're trying to. The theory behind it is that, like, if you're as you as you focusing on something as it gets further away from you, you know, you can further. You can focus something close and then you can focus on something further away. So you start running out of the ability to see stuff as stuff if you're nearsighted, as stuff gets further away from you. Right. So what the idea was here is to try to relax your eyes with these different techniques and try to look beyond. Try to focus beyond what you're looking at. She almost like looking through it and trying to focus beyond what it is, what the object is, what the letter is in the case of an eye exam. And that letter that will come into. That'll come into view.

[Kim Holderness]

You sound like a superhero at this point, because Pen and I are both basically blind. So. Yeah, this is, this is fascinating. I'm fascinated because NASA told you no how many times? Three times. Officially?

[Mike Massimino]

Yeah, officially three times.

[Kim Holderness]

And you kept going, you kept trying. Penn heard a no once, and he's like, okay, I'm out. So.

[Penn Holderness]

So go to Taco Bell.

[Kim Holderness]

It's Good Taco Bell. What is your advice?

[Mike Massimino]

That's okay too, because maybe it wasn't the right thing to be doing anyway.

[Kim Holderness]

Totally. You know, a lot of most people listening to this podcast will not go to space. They will not be become an astronaut. But I think the thing that's very relatable is hearing. No, hearing, you know, having a dream and being told, you know what? That's not possible. So, you know, so what sort of life experience, what sort of advice can you give the people that have had heard no a couple times and they, but they still want to try to pursue this dream?

[Mike Massimino]

Get used to that. No, I think it's, you know, I've never met anyone, any successful person, whether they are in sports or in entertainment or business or anything, you know, successful people aren't those that never failed, those that never let failure stop them. I think we find out who we are when we're faced with, with a failure or something, a bump in the road or something that, you know, becomes an obstacle. You know, these, these things, these things happen. And it's part of the. It's part of life, it's part of the journey. And so I would try to look at it that way. And if, if you give up, I mean, you know, giving up is, I think, the worst thing you can do. If you give up for the right reasons, like, all right, I got something else I'd rather do, or, you know. Yeah, you don't have to, you know, you know, whatever it might be, it's not, it's not for you, or you've got something else is more important or for whatever reason, you know. Yeah, things. But I mean, just to give up, to take yourself out of the game, I don't think you want to do that. Because then if it's something that's really important, it doesn't matter then what the heck, you know. But if it's something that's really important, I think you have to give your chance, give yourself a chance at success. And as long as you try and there's, you know, there's that chance. And I, you know, I felt many times when I was trying to become an astronaut that I, I thought it was impossible and it kind, you know, it was really unlike, but it was just unlikely. It's. There's a chapter in the book, the first chapter is, is called One in a million is not Zero. It's. Is that as long as you try, there's a chance. And one in a million is, it may be your chances, but that's not A zero outcome. A zero outcome is when once you give up, then you know what the outcome is going to be. You're not going to be successful.

[Penn Holderness]

My favorite chapter point that you made, actually, which didn't really occur to me, was about dream chasing and goal chasing really being more effective when it's a collaboration. And it is. It's a little bit in conflict with me again, because my, like, I have these dreams and I. They're so singular, right? Like, your dream of being an astronaut is so singular. And you. There's also, I think maybe instinctively you don't want to share it with anyone. You kind of want to keep it in your own head.

[Mike Massimino]

One of the stories I tell is, yeah, I wasn't a strong swimmer, and I was kind of worried we had to take the swim test to go through water survival with the Navy was in case we ejected out of the aircraft or we bailed out of the space shuttle and you find yourself in the ocean, you got to survive for a while until the, you know someone's going to come and get you. Right? So when I showed up for work at NASA, the first thing we were going to do is a swim test. I was like, oh, boy, you know, party's over. And he asked in the group who were the strong swimmers. And then he asked who were the weak swimmers. And then. And he said everyone else could go home but the strong swimmers and the weak swimmers were going to meet over a weekend, over that weekend at a pool. And a strong swimmer is going to help the weak swimmers. And he. And he went on to say that because when we go to the pool on Monday, no one leaves the pool until everyone passes that test. So even with that, we were not going. No one was going to be left behind. And so, you know, if you're. If you're good at something and you want to help people, it kind of makes you feel good. I'll show you how to do this. But it was more important, I think, for those who needed help to raise their hand, like me. I raised my hand and we. I got help over the weekend from some of my friends. Was actually kind of fun doing it. And then we went to the pool on Monday and all of us passed. But it kind of set the tone that, you know that. That when you need help, you need to raise your hand because you're putting the mission at risk. The thing that I think NASA had going for it, that. And that's the kind of people I think they look for or is. Is that the mission is what mattered you know, your personal achievement was, was. That's nice. You know, you might get a medal or something, but what really mattered was that the mission was successful. And then when you start thinking like that and you realize that my place in this mission, my place in this organization and what we're trying to do, I'm just a piece of it. And if I'm weak, I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring the team down. So we can't have that happen. Even if it embarrasses me. You know, I've got to say, hey, I'm having trouble with this, or hey, I see this is wrong, or this could lead to a bad outcome and you need to speak up.

[Penn Holderness]

I want to go back to something that you said earlier because it, it had a profound effect on me. When you talked about the Earth feeling like it was home. When you were hovering above it, Kim mentioned taking care of it. I know you. I know you know William Shatner, he went to space, or you. And he gave this unbelievably poetic account of going up there and saying it felt like a funeral because he realized that like his greatest space is, it was Earth. It was seeing Earth that made him realize how amazing this place is and we're messing it up. What do you think?

[Mike Massimino]

He's, he's a nice guy. I think, you know, his reaction, I think he was, I think he was just happy to be alive. I think that's really what it was. And I think the truth, no, the Earth is the most compelling thing to look at when you're, we're not even in, you know, where I was, which was a high altitude for the shuttle at 350 miles up. You know, it's not really that far away from the planet, you know, that.

[Kim Holderness]

Seems far to me.

[Penn Holderness]

No, it's close.

[Mike Massimino]

It's far. But you know, it's, but you know, it's, it's in the, it's enough direction, so it's hard to get to. But the most compelling thing to look at is, is Earth. It's really beautiful. And you look out in the other direction and you see the, you know, you see stars and stuff. It's kind of cool looking the other direction. But you know, we've, we've checked out the neighborhood. We got nowhere to go. We've got to make this plant work. So we're nowhere near being able to live anywhere else. And nowhere else. I mean, the moon or Mars or any of these places, we're talking about going those places. The best, the worst, absolute worst. Place to live on Earth is a bazillion times better than any place you'll find on Mars. I mean, that's a rough place to live. So it's not like we're looking for a better place. I think we're, we're exploring to try to figure out what we can do better here on Earth to take care of our planet and try to understand things. It's not like we're looking for right now anyway. Someplace to replace Earth. I don't know if we'll ever find that, but I think we need to find ways to keep Earth healthier so we don't, we can, we can, you know, future generations can, can live in this beautiful place and enjoy the same things we're able to enjoy now. And I think that's maybe the point he was making about, you know, you're looking out and you see the darkness and all that, and you look back at the Earth and you see all this, you know, this, this beautiful paradise that we.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, that's what I thought William Shatner.

[Kim Holderness]

Meant, but you really spun that beautifully.

[Mike Massimino]

I think that some of the, you know, that's some of the good things about sending people who are, who can communicate well, or actors or celebrities, you know, even though they get these quick glances, you know, they can, they can, they can put it in terms that are meaningful to people and share, share the story a lot better than professional astronauts can in, in some cases, I think.

[Kim Holderness]

So you are a fan of the Katy Perry's and the Gayle Kings, like you're a fan of celebrities taking these space flights?

[Mike Massimino]

Did I say that?

[Penn Holderness]

I didn't think so.

[Mike Massimino]

No, not really. I think, you know, I, I've kind of changed my tune on this a little bit.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Mike Massimino]

When you think of astronaut, you know, it's a, it's a, it's an occupation. It's a profession. Yeah, right, It's a profession. It's like being. Whatever you guys do, if you're a podcast host or something like that, you know, whatever you're, whatever you, you know, whatever it is, if you're a teacher, if you're a lawyer, if you're a medical doctor, those are professions. And so just because I put a band aid on my kid doesn't make me a medical doctor or a nurse, you know, or just because I can help someone with their, their math homework doesn't make me a, a math teacher. You know, that's a profession. That's, they'll have a little respect here. And I don't see why astronaut doesn't get that same respect that anybody can do it as long as you get your butt up above a certain line. And I don't think that that's the case. It was a profession. And in fact, I started thinking more about this and yeah, Willie, NASA, when they, when they hired us, I was not hired as an astronaut. I was hired as an astronaut candidate. Or as they would call us as cans. We were all asking love.

[Penn Holderness]

Askan, Love the term.

[Mike Massimino]

Ascan became an astronaut after. After two years of training, you were given the title astronaut and he got a little civil or astronaut pin. And then like everyone's going around saying they're astronauts like a. Whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Kim Holderness]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Mike Massimino]

Not anymore. I am not an. I am a former astronaut. Okay.

[Kim Holderness]

Right.

[Mike Massimino]

I am not. I am a former NASA astronaut. That's what I am. There are people out there that are still doing that job, you know, that are. Some from my astronaut class are still doing it and some are new people that are doing it. That's a. That's a job. That's a profession.

[Penn Holderness]

Yes.

[Kim Holderness]

I like it.

[Penn Holderness]

Thank you so much for your time. It's. I love meeting. I love meeting my heroes. And anyone who is an actual astronaut or former NASA. Former astronaut is one of my heroes. Yeah.

[Mike Massimino]

It's no longer my profession.

[Penn Holderness]

You'll. You'll never know how much you helped us today. We. We've had one of these days where like there have been a lot. There's been a lot of stuff going on. I didn't even know what direction this was going to go in. But it just kind of took on a trail of its own.

[Kim Holderness]

I love it.

[Penn Holderness]

And ended up with Katy Perry.

[Kim Holderness]

I love it.

[Penn Holderness]

Which makes me super happy.

[Mike Massimino]

I think I'm a big fan of Katy Per.

[Penn Holderness]

Oh yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

I do think it is very cool to have people with big platforms able to tell the story and the value space exploration. As long as they don't call themselves astronauts. More on this after these words. You guys know I'm on a protein journey and I finally found the best protein powder out there. Clean Simple Eats.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, we love Clean Simple Eats because their protein powder is always grass fed with no seed oils or artificial ingredients. Third party tested non GMO and gluten free and each serving has 20 grams of protein.

[Kim Holderness]

This protein powder is incredibly creamy and smooth. I love to use it in a smoothie or bake it into a yummy recipe.

[Penn Holderness]

And they have so many different flavors to choose from. You know, my personal favorite is the chocolate peanut butter. Seriously it is delish. They even have a protein powder variety pack so you can try individual servings of multiple flavors.

[Kim Holderness]

As you all know, getting enough protein has become a part time job for me. Finding a brand I can trust that tastes good and has none of the yucky artificial stuff has been huge.

[Penn Holderness]

Plus Clean Simple Eats also has clear protein powder. The pink burst flavor is life changing. Literally tastes like a melted pink starburst. They can't keep it in stock because it's so popular and delicious. You just mix the clear protein powder with water and get a super refreshing and light drink. Again with 20 grams of protein.

[Kim Holderness]

Visit cleansimpleats.com and use code laugh20 at checkout for 20 off your first order.

[Penn Holderness]

That's cleansimpleats.com code laugh20 for 20 off your first order.

[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

Fantastic. I always. So you have a certain type of expectation for an astronaut. You expect him to be like, hi, I'm John Glenn IV and I'm just here to talk about pulling GS and how there's no feeling like it in the world, you know, and he's more like running into somebod your lawn.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

And, and oh yeah, I went to space. Like, it's just that kind of vibe, like that everyday vibe that it, it makes me A really appreciate what he does and B, like admire all the work that he had to do because he's not John Glenn. He's a guy with busted eyes who got advice to either dehydrate or drink more water. I think at one point he tried hard contacts to mold his eyes and then went through eye training. Yeah, like what a, like what a cool story. And it's like that's the inspirational part, not that he was in space.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes, I agree. I that you can change your vision.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

I learned that you need to ask for help. And it's better in collaboration. So did that. Did hearing those things help in terms of you being able to vocalize a big goal for yourself?

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. I'd probably need to say it more often rather than, I think, usually. It's so interesting. The biggest realization I had is when I lower my expectations. I do those outwardly, but, like, inwardly, I have loftier goals, and I don't know how much help it's doing for me to sound like I have lower goals than I actually have.

[Kim Holderness]

Right.

[Penn Holderness]

I swear to God. Like, this morning, before we did shot this, I went to the gym to work out, and we were doing a CrossFit workout, and I said out loud to the guy, I'm like, I'll be lucky if I get this done in 20 minutes. And he was like, oh, you'll be fine. In my head, I'm like, I'm gonna break 15, yo.

[Kim Holderness]

Why don't you say that out loud?

[Penn Holderness]

I don't know. I have no idea. And I broke 15, by the way. Like, it works for me, but I don't know that it works for other people that are around me. Sam just went through.

[Kim Holderness]

Because if you said, I'm gonna do it in 15 minutes, and you didn't do it in 15 minutes.

[Penn Holderness]

Disappointment.

[Kim Holderness]

You would be so mad at yourself.

[Penn Holderness]

Right? That's me. But she. That does. She doesn't have that problem. She's okay. Coming up a little short and learning a valuable lesson along the way.

[Kim Holderness]

Right. You learn from disappointment. You learn from disappointment. You learn what kind of person you are. You heard Mike just said you learn what kind of person you are when you experience a little bit of failure. And those I. We teach our kids. I think that's the value of sports, is that it teaches you. It gives you, like, little micro doses of failure. Of failure. And you kind of. You learn how to lose, and you learn how to hear no. And as adults, I don't think we. I'm adverse to hearing. No. I'm. I am adverse to, like, not reaching a goal. But I am so competitive with myself that I. That I. Once I say it out loud, I really do shoot for it. But. Yeah. On that note, should we do a Road to 50 update?

[Penn Holderness]

Yes. So. And talk about a moonshot, right?

[Kim Holderness]

We haven't done this in a few weeks, so just a quick update. My Road to 50 update. I had some lofty goals before I turned 50. One of them walk 10,000 steps a day. I'm averaging about that.

[Penn Holderness]

You're crushing that.

[Kim Holderness]

I've walked about 400 today, but I'm averaging that. The other is reading 50 books before I turn 50 in this year. And I'm on like 23.

[Penn Holderness]

Just fantastic.

[Kim Holderness]

I'm doing great. There is one of them is to be able to do a pull up. It's one in a million at this point. I'm not saying it's zero. It's not zero, but it's damn near close. I have done. I think we've been so busy, which is good. No complaints. But I have not prioritized that. So I gotta get cracking because right now that's not. I've not done it.

[Penn Holderness]

I think two months of intense training you'd be able to get it. See, we could just wait until.

[Kim Holderness]

I'll just start till January.

[Mike Massimino]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

There's another thing about like saying yes when invited places. I have been saying yes this year for sure. I am so tired, you guys. I think that was part of the. I think that was part of the breakdown, dude. Like, yeah, I've gone places and I'm like. But we last week again, this is not a problem. I'm excited. But we were in three hotels in a row three different nights. Because I said yes to things. I'm just so tired.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, I didn't, I didn't think about that at the beginning of this podcast, which. What a journey, by the way.

[Kim Holderness]

What a journey.

[Penn Holderness]

We like Kim, like she came to grips with her feelings.

[Kim Holderness]

It's exhausting.

[Penn Holderness]

And then we went into space. That was great.

[Kim Holderness]

And now we're back.

[Penn Holderness]

And now we're back and we have.

[Kim Holderness]

I think we're gonna leave on a high note because we have a call on the laugh line.

[Penn Holderness]

Call us up and you tell us what's on your mind.

[Kim Holderness]

Last week we did an episode all about Gen Z and I think we actually have some Gen Alpha listeners. Here's Hazel on the laugh line.

[Penn Holderness]

Go Hazel.

[Kim Holderness]

Hi, this is Hazel. I am 13 and I live in California. I love your guys's videos and I listen to this podcast every day. I love your ADHD content. It really helps me understand and appreciate my ADHD. My favorite episode is 10 Things the News.

[Penn Holderness]

I hope you can make more podcasts.

[Kim Holderness]

Like that in the future. And thank you for making such amazing and fun videos, Hazel. You're the sweetest. That was so thoughtful.

[Penn Holderness]

Also, she used all words that I understand and knew what they were instead of like my kids who just make up words like skibidi.

[Kim Holderness]

And there would. That would not have been appropriate in that voicemail.

[Penn Holderness]

So it was wonderful.

[Kim Holderness]

So, Hazel, first of all, you're adorable. Should Pen sing the news?

[Penn Holderness]

I completely forgot about that until she told me about it. Hazel. We do. We do a lot of stuff, and it's now coming back to me. That was a podcast where you gave a headline and then you asked me to go write a song about it and come back and sing.

[Kim Holderness]

Should that be a segment? Okay. Vote in the comment section. Should. Sam is like, oh, my gosh, one more second.

[Penn Holderness]

Do I. Do I get a vote?

[Kim Holderness]

My favorite game.

[Penn Holderness]

It's a pit sweat game. Like, it's.

[Kim Holderness]

I love when Kim decides segments that Pen has to do all the work and then you have to edit all the post production and you get to. I'm an idea person, Sam.

[Penn Holderness]

I love that segment. I'm totally fine with that. Okay. I mean, I think one of the biggest issues was like, can we find news that doesn't trigger people?

[Kim Holderness]

Oof. Maybe there was another reason I had.

[Penn Holderness]

That was why we did it once. Hazel.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

Like, what if it's good, fun, interesting news? Like we do space news or science news or stuff like that. In conclusion, thank you for calling, Hazel. Thank you for coming in, Mike. You did great. So if.

[Kim Holderness]

Thanks for the menti b. This mental breakdown is sponsored by we.

[Penn Holderness]

We know all about mascara now. Kim came to grips with her feelings. I think that was like the most important part of this entire hour. And I'm like, very proud of you for that.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. Anyway, let's read the credits.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. Laugh Lines is written and produced by Kim Holderness, Penn Holderness and Ann Marie Tapke with original music by Penn Holderness. It is filmed, edited and live produced by Sam Allen and hosted by acast. As always, we'd love to hear from you. Please write to us at podcastheholdernessfamily.com or.

[Kim Holderness]

Leave us a voicemail at 323-364-3929 and.

[Penn Holderness]

We will talk to you soon on the Laughline. Hey, it's Marc Maron from WTF here to let you know that this podcast is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. And I'm sure the reason you're listening to this podcast right now is because you chose it well. Choose Progressives. Name your price tool and you could find insurance options that fit your budget. So you can pick the best one for your situation. Who doesn't like choice? Try [e-mail] and now some legal info. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

[Kim Holderness]

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