Motivating ADHD Kids & Your Questions with Dr. Emily King

Summary

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Laugh Lines with Kim & Penn Holderness

Episode: Motivating ADHD Kids & Your Questions with Dr. Emily King
Release Date: September 23, 2025
Guests: Dr. Emily King (Licensed Psychologist, Learn With Dr. Emily Founder)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the realities and strategies for supporting ADHD kids, featuring a candid and advice-packed conversation with Dr. Emily King, psychologist and expert in neurodivergent children. Kim and Penn, both parents and advocates, bring listener questions to Dr. King, covering practical support at home and in school, executive functioning, motivation, medication, and ways to nurture confidence and unique strengths in ADHD kids. The tone is warm, humorous, and reassuring, with actionable tips and memorable stories sprinkled throughout.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Understanding ADHD Beyond Focus and Impulse Control

Timestamp: 08:24–09:54

• Dr. King urges parents and teachers to start with “what’s going on in kids’ sensory system, their emotional regulation system.”

  “Think about them as having a younger nervous system, not a necessarily weaker nervous system, but younger.”
  —Dr. Emily King (08:44)

• Intelligence and language skills might be age-appropriate or advanced, but emotional processing and self-regulation may lag.

Takeaway: ADHD kids often process the world with a mismatch between intellectual ability and emotional self-management. Embrace differences; correct only for safety.

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2. Support vs. Independence: How Much is Too Much?

Timestamp: 11:18–15:08

• Parenting ADHD kids means finding the line between “offering support” and letting them “figure it out.”

• Dr. King explains “asynchronous development”: kids may excel in academics but struggle with life or executive skills.

  “Most ADHD kids do not go from not knowing how to do it to totally mastered without some sort of direct teaching or strategy.”
  —Dr. Emily King (12:56)

• Skills need direct instruction and practice; don’t expect ADHD kids to learn them by osmosis as neurotypical peers might.

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3. Classroom Strategies for Teachers

Timestamp: 15:18–18:16

• Teachers can help ADHD (and all) kids by focusing first on sensory regulation (movement needs, volume, emotions).
• Normalize supports like headphones/earplugs.
• Use visual checklists and systems; goal is independence using the system, not eliminating supports.

  “The things that are my go-to…are: regulate sensory system, allow for movement, use visuals…this helps everyone.”
  —Dr. Emily King (16:13)

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4. Technology & AI as Support Tools

Timestamp: 18:17–20:38

• AI tools are “just a new tool”—they’re helpful if used to support, not enable.
• Use AI to help with organization or getting started, but real learning (and assessment) should be the child’s own.

  “If you don’t show the teacher what you know, the teacher can’t teach you what you don’t know.”
  —Dr. Emily King (19:36)

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5. Bolstering Self-Confidence in ADHD Kids

Timestamp: 20:42–23:36

• ADHD kids get constant correction/criticism. Choose battles carefully; ask, “Whose problem is it?”
• Success outside school matters; encourage sports, music, arts—places ADHD kids find genuine competence.

  “There are all these different ways to be smart…that will help buffer some of the times where they don’t feel confident.”
  —Dr. Emily King (22:56)

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6. Listener Calls & Targeted Advice

a. Sassy Six-Year-Old and Perimenopausal Patience

Timestamp: 27:34–31:17

• Mom struggles with a spirited, impulsive child even on meds.
• Dr. King: Medication helps, but movement, sleep, nutrition are crucial. Channel sass into expressive outlets (“sassiness is celebrated” in performing arts).

  “We've got to put some social boundaries around that. So if we can channel her energy in a way where it's celebrated, then you have an opportunity…”
  —Dr. Emily King (30:47)

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b. The Great ADHD Medication & Supplement Question

Timestamp: 31:17–33:43

• Dr. King is “pro-science,” urges people to vet any new supplement/treatment through credible research and consults with medical providers who know your child.

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c. Teaching Executive Function: Teacher’s POV

Timestamp: 33:55–39:48

• High school teacher asks how to build executive function in diverse ADHD students.

• Dr. King: Tailor supports to patterns of strengths/needs, collaborate with colleagues, use visuals, frequent check-ins, music for focus, and parent collaboration.

  “Middle and high school teachers, remember: a 12-year-old with ADHD could feel like a third grader in your class…don't underestimate parent collaboration.”
  —Dr. Emily King (38:17)

• Introduces the “backwards timeline” tool: start with long-term goal (“live independently”), work backward in steps (“graduate high school,” “do this worksheet”).

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d. Executive Function for Teen Boys

Timestamp: 40:48–44:55

• Many moms with 15–18-year-old sons worry about basic life skills (“can he wake himself up for college?”).
• Dr. King: Intelligence ≠ executive function. It’s normal for ADHD teens to need more scaffolding or extra years at home; independence is a spectrum.

  “It’s okay if your kid is chronologically 18…to think about them as a younger child for some of these skills.”
  —Dr. Emily King (42:31)

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e. Gender Differences: Boys vs. Girls

Timestamp: 44:55–47:55

• Why so many concerns about boys’ executive functioning, but not girls?
• Theories: Societal “norms” raise girls to people-please and mask difficulties; boys’ hyperactivity/impulsivity is more visible and often more criticized.

  “Boys might be more defeated if they've gotten reprimanded a lot more for squeaky wheel behaviors…girls may get better teacher interactions.”
  —Dr. Emily King (46:50)

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f. Sports & ADHD: The Goalie Dilemma

Timestamp: 51:22–54:11

• Parent’s high-energy son is pushed into goalie role due to “fearlessness”—but he does better running the field.
• Penn shares personal anecdote hating goalie despite being good at it.
• Dr. King: Collaborate with coach—ask what the goal is, and explain where the child’s strengths truly shine.

  “If this is true, I don't think my kid's gonna be able to do that in these circumstances. I think my kid could contribute...and be really successful.”
  —Dr. Emily King (53:47)

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g. Organizing Homework, Planners, and the “With” Phase

Timestamp: 54:15–58:15

• Mom of a 6th grader asks: How do I help him keep track of assignments?
• Dr. King recommends a binder system with pocket dividers (paper is visible), daily sit-down to organize, and underscores the with them, not for them phase in middle school.

  “Do it with them, not for them. …You have to do it with them for a while before they do it on their own.”
  —Dr. Emily King (57:28)

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h. The Value (or Not) of a Formal ADHD Diagnosis

Timestamp: 58:15–60:56

• Is it important to get a clinical diagnosis, especially for older teens?
• Diagnosis is helpful to access services, medication, or to “understand your brain”—but only if the individual desires it or it unlocks needed support.

  “Explanation is great. It also connects you to other people. It's identity for yourself. But identity immediately opens us up to belonging…”
  —Dr. Emily King (60:36)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “Intelligence is independent from executive functioning.” —Dr. Emily King (41:41)
• “The teen years it turns into, ‘well, I don't care,’ because ‘I don't care’ is easier than ‘I can't.’” —Dr. Emily King (42:04)
• “Show kids what ‘done’ looks like.” —Dr. Emily King (63:24)
• “Diagnosis isn’t an excuse, it’s an explanation…and that can be freeing.” —Penn Holderness (60:30)
• “If you don’t show the teacher what you know, the teacher can’t teach you what you don’t know.” —Dr. Emily King (19:36)

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Practical Takeaways ("Three-Piece Nuggets")

Suggested by Penn, Timestamp: 62:14–63:15

1. Development & Mastery Path: Kids move from “not knowing → emerging → independent”—don't expect overnight mastery.
2. Identity Turns into Belonging: Understanding neurodivergence fosters self-acceptance and community—vital for mental wellness.
3. Reverse Timeline for Motivation: Use backward planning with teens to link everyday tasks to long-term goals.

Bonus Nugget: Always use visuals or concrete examples—not just verbal instructions—when working with ADHD kids.

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Final Expert Tip

"Show kids what ‘done’ looks like."

• When giving multi-step directions, supplement verbal instructions with visuals: pictures of what “ready for school” looks like, or what a completed homework binder should look like.
• ADHD brains need concrete, not just abstract, instructions.

  “We have to translate our verbal language from what we say to what does ‘done’ look like…They'll feel so successful if they can actually do what we're asking.”
  —Dr. Emily King (64:17)

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Resources Mentioned/Where to Find Dr. Emily King

• Substack: Learn with Dr. Emily (free blogs, live and recorded workshops)
• Website: The Neurodiverse Classroom (for educators)

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Closing

The Holdernesses and Dr. King reinforce that thriving with ADHD is possible and that every child—and family—needs patience, creativity, and humor. “Follow your kids’ joy, work with where their skills are emerging, and know that ADHD strategies make life better for every brain.”

Listeners are encouraged to check out Dr. Emily’s upcoming book ('The Neurodivergent Learner', due early 2026), the Holdernesses’ new children’s book ‘All You Can Be with ADHD’, and to submit more questions for future episodes.

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Transcript

[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

As we know, the youth mental health crisis is all over the news and we know that social media is a huge driving factor.

[Kim Holderness]

Did you know the US Surgeon General warns that kids who spend more than three hours a day online are twice as likely to have depression and anxiety?

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, we are huge advocates for prioritizing mental health and that includes monitoring the time that we and our kids spend in front of devices.

[Kim Holderness]

I personally keep my phone out of the bedroom at night so I don't spend hours mindlessly scrolling rather than getting a good night's sleep.

[Penn Holderness]

Here's the good though. A company called Gab has solved that problem by doing something no one else is doing. Their approach is tech in steps.

[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

Bottom line, you don't have to give your kids a device that was made for an adult. Get them gab, which keeps them socially connected and safely.

[Penn Holderness]

Plus, school is about to start. Can you believe it?

[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

Exactly. Or like you're having really wild mood swings. Well, is it that time of the month?

[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

Headspace is the app that helps me and 100 million people with their mental health and well being. With guided meditations, mindfulness practices, breathing and calming exercises, exercises and so much more, I'm reducing stress, boosting my mood and sleeping better.

[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

As someone who just dropped off the firstborn at college, sleep has been hard to come by. Headspace offers guided meditations, wind downs, sleep music, soundscapes, and their ever popular sleep casts.

[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Dr. Emily King]

Teen years it turns into like well, I don't care because I don't care is easier than I can't.

[Penn Holderness]

And then I found like sports casting.

[Dr. Emily King]

Jazz hands isn't it like this all the time.

[Kim Holderness]

All the time.

[Dr. Emily King]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

We get older every day. Got more wrinkles.

[Dr. Emily King]

That's okay. Yeah, we're laughing.

[Penn Holderness]

When we age, life is like a comedy stage. And that's why we got laugh lines.

[Kim Holderness]

Hey everybody, I'm Kim Holderness.

[Penn Holderness]

And I'm Penn Holderness. And welcome to Laugh Lines.

[Kim Holderness]

If you ever sat in front of your boombox and just patiently waited and you hit record at the exact right time in order to make a mixtape for your crush, you're right place.

[Penn Holderness]

Were you listening to G105 Hot 10 at 10 like me?

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, it was, it was like G105.

[Penn Holderness]

Well, G105 was in rock.

[Kim Holderness]

No, no, it was 101 point. I don't know what it was.

[Penn Holderness]

But, but, but here's the problem. The DJ talks over like the first couple of line like, all right everybody, Johnny used to work on the job. But you don't hear the.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, you don'.

[Penn Holderness]

That was probably.

[Kim Holderness]

Anyway, if you've had that problem in your life, where are your people?

[Penn Holderness]

This is going to be a quick intro because we're going to get right to our guest very quickly. She's very popular. She's been in our show before. She has the most practical, most thought out answers to questions about ADHD and she lives right down the street. So she joins us in the studio.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, it's Dr. Emily King and she specializes in helping parents and teachers and schools like support their neurodivergent kids. And she is amazing. And we actually put a call out on Instagram saying hey, email us, call us with your questions. I've never had so many responses, like thousands and thousands. And so we do our best to sort of like merge questions and even still there's so many left.

[Penn Holderness]

And stay tuned for the end when we have a new segment segment that we still don't know what to name.

[Kim Holderness]

But it'll be good.

[Penn Holderness]

But there was a lot of unintentional laughter.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, also before we get started, Shameless Self Plug here, our newest book. It's a children's book. Here it is. You can pre order it now. It's called all youl Can Be. And you can go to all you can be with ADHD.com to pre order. And we hope you that this book is a fun way for kids or anyone to look at their brains. I have to say Dr. Emily King helped us with our first book, ADHD is Awesome because she is such a powerful, wonderful resource. And again we consulted with her on this book because we are not the Scientists, we are the lab rats in this.

[Penn Holderness]

She has earned that title. Dr. Emily King. We're calling her Dr. Emily. That's kind of her what she likes to be called. I probably accidentally called her Emily because she's a friend of mine, so apologies. She has earned that title. Doctor. She a licensed psychologist with over 20 years of experience supporting children, families and educators.

[Kim Holderness]

She started her career as a school psychologist and now runs a private consultation practice in Raleigh, North Carolina. Dr. Emily specializes in helping neurodivergent kids, those with ADHD, autism, anxiety and learning differences by working directly with parents and teachers to create environments where kids can thrive.

[Penn Holderness]

She's also the founder of learn with Dr. Emily, where she shares resources, workshops, and writing to support families and schools. She brings empathy, expertise, and real life perspective to everything she does. And as we said, she was a consultant for both of our ADHD books and we're excited to have her. Welcome, Dr. Emily. Close enough to touch. You're with us in the studio.

[Dr. Emily King]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Kim Holderness]

You're the first non holderness to be in the studio.

[Dr. Emily King]

It's such an honor. Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. We put a call out for questions for you and we got more than we ever have before, which says to me that there is an incredible need of information. And so I'm so excited to get to those. But first, because it is our podcast, I get to ask my questions first.

[Penn Holderness]

Right.

[Kim Holderness]

But they're gonna be short, I promise. And then we're gonna get to your questions and your incredible voicemails. What do you wish every parent and teacher understood about adhd? That often gets overlooked.

[Dr. Emily King]

I think that we've gotta start with what's going on in kids sensory system, their emotional regulation system. Cause we always first go to focus and sitting down and controlling impulses, which is there too. But for young kids and for elementary age kids that still very much have a young nervous system, they're struggling to regulate emotions, they're struggling to regulate their sensory system and sensitivities with all kinds of things, much like a younger kid. And so I would love for just everyone to understand if a child in your classroom or if your child has a diagnosis of adhd, think about them as having a younger nervous system, not a necessarily weaker nervous system, but younger. And that their intelligence, their language, all of those things might be age appropriate or beyond age or grade appropriate. But we have to watch how they navigate the classroom. We have to watch, you know, how they move around the world because what they're doing is what they need.

[Penn Holderness]

So are you Saying like, less correction when it comes to that.

[Dr. Emily King]

Like, so correction. Really Only when it's a safety issue.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Emily King]

So we've got to find that balance between celebrating a kid's differences, like if you need to stand and move and when you eat, or if as long as you're with us at the table conversing or, you know, whatever your boundary feels like it's going to be for your family or for your classroom, as long as it's not a safety issue for the kid or for people around the child, we can embrace those differences.

[Kim Holderness]

You're saying this, my lovely and wonderful son. We've all seen him here on the podcast. And first of all, I wish somebody had told me when he was 8 just to embrace that, because I felt like he was not processing like an 8 year old. He was processing like a. Emotionally, but that's the part, like, brilliant. In school, he was doing, you know, very advanced math, but maybe processing it emotionally differently still to this day, in the mornings, he eats his breakfast, but he has to be pacing around. I tend to be a little anxious, so that makes me a little anxious. So I've learned, because I'd be like, can you. Love you? Could you please sit down?

[Penn Holderness]

That's what they need.

[Dr. Emily King]

But.

[Kim Holderness]

But it's what he needs. So I've now come to. I remove myself and I go somewhere else where I can still see him. We can still talk. Right. But the pacing is like he needs to be walking in a circle while he's eating his toaster waffle.

[Dr. Emily King]

And the most important thing in that situation is that he eats before he goes to school, not that he sits, because it's possible that if he sits, he won't eat, which is so true.

[Penn Holderness]

Moving on to adults, which you don't really talk about. What if someone's at a date with their wife and they fiddle with their fork.

[Kim Holderness]

Fork a little bit.

[Penn Holderness]

Well, their wife always takes the fork away from them.

[Kim Holderness]

You haven't washed your hands recently. And then you take the. And he's just with the forks all the time. And so I just like take his.

[Dr. Emily King]

It sounds like y' all both have some boundaries about the fork and you can discuss that. It's.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, my. My fidgeting gets corrected a lot.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Penn Holderness]

But moving on, moving on.

[Kim Holderness]

How do you strike the balance of offering support but then teaching your kid how to figure it out. Right. Like, so where do you. Like, my kid needs to figure it out.

[Dr. Emily King]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

But then do you let them do it themselves? Because that'll take forever.

[Dr. Emily King]

Okay. So when they're little, we're really thinking about figuring out who they are, autonomy, and then we're stepping in for safety. Right. But as they get older, what you just described was asynchronous development. Like they could be really smart, they could be really verbal and have this huge vocabulary and yet not be able to find any of their belongings or follow a three point checklist or whatever the thing is that has to do with executive functioning. Right. And so at some point you will add, you know, boundaries of life skills to the safety goal. Right. So at some point our kids will start emerging with skills. And I always think about this in three different sections of either something is like not even developmentally appropriate. Like we're not even working on it. And when I say developmentally appropriate, I mean for your kids development, not for their chronological age. So we get stuck in this. Like my kid's 12, he should be able to do this. Nope. Your kids ADHD brain may not be functioning like a non ADHD 12 year old brain. And so we, you know, have to make our best guesses about where they are with that skill developmentally. And then so there's kids that like, we wouldn't even ask them. Maybe, you know, and you have gut feelings as a parent. I wouldn't even ask my kid to pack their backpack. But maybe they're a little older and you're like, I think they could do this with some support. And then there's the last category of like totally mastered. Most ADHD kids do not go from not knowing how to do it to totally mastered without some sort of direct teaching or strategy. And so they don't learn it by osmosis. Like non ADHD brains just kind of look around and like, oh, everyone's cleaning up, up. I think I'll do that too. That doesn't happen. Right.

[Penn Holderness]

That's something you feel as a parent a lot of times for that age. How important is it that teachers, administrators and schools understand that development isn't always following a paradigm age?

[Dr. Emily King]

Yeah, I talk to teachers about this all the time when I do professional development, because educators especially are. It's just a habit because everything's organized by grade level. Everything's organized. The curriculum is organized by what developmentally, 8, 10, 12, 12 year old should be learning or could be learning. And so we have to undo some of those assumptions and remember that it's possible for kids to be reading way above grade level or doing math above grade level, but not be able to have any idea where their water bottle is. You know, those are Two completely different skills. And so to start thinking about kids skills in different silos and then you're going to have different strategies for different things. But yeah, that, that's what you've got to start thinking about. In addition to safety is okay, how do I want to move this child forward? Because getting back to what you said about letting them figure it out, they probably won't if they have an ADHD brain. They probably won't without that structure or without failing and feeling shame and then figuring it out when they're an adult, which we're trying. We're here because we're trying to prevent that. Right. And so all these strategies I share and that y' all are so great with sharing openly are hopefully so apparent out there can say, oh, my kid struggles with this. I could just teach them how to do this one thing. And that could help them feel more capable. And. And that's where the problem solving comes from. We want our kid to. When we say figure it out, we want our kid to be okay. Feeling like, I don't know how to do this. It doesn't mean I'm dumb. It means that like, I don't know how to do this. I need a strategy.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Emily King]

And if we can help our kids just identify that and then meet them with some sort of curiosity and figure it out together, that's the best way to do it.

[Kim Holderness]

You do such important work with teachers. And what I loved about. I did this call out on Instagram. So many teachers wrote in.

[Dr. Emily King]

I love that.

[Kim Holderness]

I know. And I love a teacher. They're do. And they're. I mean, and they're. I mean, I could. I love a teacher. They're dealing with like so many different personalities and so many different differences and that they're trying their very best. What are some practical classroom strategies that would help an ADHD kid? But also, I would imagine all the.

[Dr. Emily King]

Kids teachers can feel overwhelmed by, wait, I need to do something different for all 25 of these brains. And like, nope. So most of the stuff we talk about helps everyone. It's just that the, the kids with a little bit more executive functioning or a little bit more independence will just learn it faster. You won't have to scaffold it as much. You won't have to use as many visuals. So the things that are my go to for teachers is kind of in this order. So make sure everyone's sensory system is regulated. Which means like, if you've got a child who is just so incredibly active there, I mean that chair is never on all fours. You know, their. Their body is always moving. They may need different seating. Or that child is always overwhelmed by some sort of noise. Or that child is easily. Their emotions, like, spike up really easily. Or they're. They're always breaking pencils during math. Like, whatever the emotion is that you see, there are patterns to that that those are the cues to, like, get in front of. So, like, observe that sensory, like, what their body is needing in those. Mom. Then we can start thinking about putting in strategies for. It's really only like, four or five different things, like, who needs to move? Who needs their space to be quiet? And let's normalize using earplugs and headphones for whoever needs them. Not just our autistic classmates. You know, whoever needs them. Because there are plenty of sensory.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes.

[Dr. Emily King]

Sensitivity. But also it's focused on. So there are plenty of people who just need headphones to focus. You know, when I'm writing in my house, I use headphones because my people are loud. Yes. And I'm like, I could. I could actually go to my office. For some reason, I'm in my house trying to do this. And so we use that for focus. So normalizing that we all need something different to regulate so that we can then pay attention. And then. Then on top of that. So probably you've got, like, a third of the class, maybe two thirds of the class at that point is able to focus because their sensory needs are met. I'm assuming, already assuming that we've got good relationships going on and they trust the teacher. But our sensory needs are met. We're able to focus. And then there will be a few left over that need some sort of visual system of a checklist or. And the goal is always to get that kid independent on that system and not wait for them to be able to do it without a visual. I get that question a lot with parents. Well, are they always gonna be using these strategies and maybe.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Emily King]

There are tons of ADHD adults that live on strategies, and that's totally okay.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes. Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. I want to know what you think about some of the resources that are available now through AI.

[Dr. Emily King]

Okay.

[Penn Holderness]

There are resources that, like, they can, you know, you turn on a button and it listens to the entire class and prepares an outline for you. There are things out there, I'm sure you've heard of this before, that could help assist a student with special needs, particularly like adhd.

[Dr. Emily King]

We got to be careful and find the balance here. So. So it's. AI is just a new tool. We've Always had the tools. So we've got to think about it in the same way we do the old tools. For instance, you know, we don't want to use a tool to enable, we want to use a tool as a resource. So if we feel like using AI to come up with something that would really, a child or a student really could do on their own and is going to build a skill if they do it on their own, they need to be doing that. Now if we're using it as a resource, for instance, to like make an outline to get started on something or you know, something that gets kids going that is going to support an executive functioning weakness, I think that is excellent and of course using it more for things that are not going to be graded, things that are not going to be any in any way a representation of what they know. Because and this is true of like all history of schooling and cheating culture is like, if you don't show the teacher what you know, the teacher can't teach you what you don't know. And so I tell this to kids all the time when they like look on someone's paper or you know, they, they're like, well, I didn't, I didn't know what to do so I just rushed through it and so, okay, well now the teacher though doesn't know what you know. And so you run the risk of them either teaching you something you already know and that's boring or continuing to teach you this thing that is too complex or too long. And so the teacher needs the information. So lots of kids I work with are very like data driven. They love the facts, they love to find out, like we got to give your teacher some data and if you don't truly show them what they know and that's, you know, whether it's AI or looking at your friend's paper. Now AI is probably more reliable than your friend's paper, but whatever it is, we still have to have the same moral boundaries with it. But yes, there are lots of strategies to be had especially with just the speed that AI can come up with something to help with, you know, visuals and lists and things that could be helpful for kids.

[Kim Holderness]

One last question from us and then we have the, then we have two.

[Penn Holderness]

Pages and then we have, yeah, we'll go fast.

[Kim Holderness]

Kids with ADHD often hear a lot of correction and criticism. What can we be doing to help support their self confidence?

[Dr. Emily King]

First, think about, you've hear, you've heard it all the time. Choose your battles. But think about like you were saying with the walking around the kitchen, is that something that needs to be corrected or do you need to walk out of the room?

[Kim Holderness]

Is it my problem?

[Dr. Emily King]

Whose problem is it? And is that, is that a skill you need your child to do? So we're making a choice like basically, is this worth it for my child to receive feedback on this? Because we know from research kids with ADHD get so much more feedback, reprimands and comments.

[Penn Holderness]

10,000 prompts in their childhood, yeah, I think we've heard about.

[Dr. Emily King]

So we really want to obviously step in if there's a safety issue and obviously step in if our kid is not doing something that we absolutely know they're capable of doing. So we don't want to let those two things go because, you know, safety obviously. But then the other can lead to enabling of we, we just aren't going to put, you know, boundaries or structure around them, then they won't grow. So we do want to help them. So if we can minimize the feedback they're getting to at least bring it down to like a tolerable emotional level for them, that will also help their self confidence. But the other thing I really want to make sure we talk about, and we'll probably get into it with questions, is that kids with adhd, and I'm going to talk about this in my book, but kids with ADHD and different types of neurodivergence, they just don't learn best in a classroom. There's so, there's so much learning that happens for them on a sports field with a musical instrument. When they are reading a book that's just their interest and they're doing their own pacing with it. When they are digging a garden, whatever it is that they're interested in. We can talk about interest based, you know, nervous system stuff that, you know, they're engaged in and they're, that learning is so powerful for them that we have to make sure that's a part of their life because they spend seven hours a day at school. And, and just by default of that system, they may come out of that system with, you know, questioning themselves like am I not smart because of this? And so the first thing we can do is help them understand that there are all these different ways to be smart, right? You can, you know, struggle with math but be great at reading or you can struggle with all of the school stuff and be awesome at sports or awesome at music. There are all these different ways to be smart and that will help buffer some of the times where they don't feel confident on one thing because kids are very concrete so they often will put like all their skills in one basket. Which is why if I don't feel good about school I'm going to have low self esteem. Well we can help them separate that their smarts is actually lots of different things so that they're not putting it all in one place and so like one, you know not feeling like I'm doing well at this doesn't bring down their whole self esteem.

[Penn Holderness]

That's a great piece of advice. The whole world especially once they get into high school. I know you don't you deal with people that are younger as well. They are battling against that because of all of the requirements it takes to get into a college and all of that. But I love that. For those of you who don't know, an interest based nervous system basically says that our particular brains work really well when it's something that's new or novel of personal interest.

[Dr. Emily King]

Right.

[Penn Holderness]

And challenging like hard something that's difficult for you. You want to go to the laugh line?

[Kim Holderness]

Let's go to the last line.

[Penn Holderness]

We got calls, we got IG DMs, we got emails. We're going to start with a call from Emily who is raising a sassy six year old.

[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Caller (Various)]

Emily I'm almost 49 in perimenopause so patient is not my fourth day. Right now I am raising my very sassy firstborn six year old girl. She has ADHD and even with the medication she's still the queen of you know I do whatever I want instead of listening. So she's starting to have problems at school. Any miracle tips to help her focus and follow instruction before I completely melt down? Thank you so much.

[Penn Holderness]

Does that sound familiar?

[Kim Holderness]

It should be. It should be illegal to go through perimenopause and then also have to raise a kid going to college or a sassy 6 year old.

[Dr. Emily King]

Like it should be against the rules. Yeah, super common question and I think we've got to also think about like I heard I heard her Say, like, even though she takes medication, what are maybe some other things we can do? Because there are going to be limits to medication. Medication is going to help with some body regulation, it's going to help with some focus. But outside of that, we also have to really make sure that kids nutrition and sleep and exercise is on point. So like, if they're needing lots of exercise, sometimes sassy 6 year old is code for I need to be on the stage.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Emily King]

So I'm curious, I would be curious to ask more about is she into dance, is she into theater, is she into improv? Because that is a space where sassiness is celebrated.

[Penn Holderness]

Welcome, dude. And there are so many people with ADHD in performing arts.

[Kim Holderness]

I'm sorry, that's why they're the most fun.

[Penn Holderness]

Anytime I do like a keynote or whatever, I say, raise your hands if you were in performing arts. And literally everyone raises their hand.

[Dr. Emily King]

Okay, so we want to think about where can we channel the sassy. And the reason for that is obviously we want her to be able to be accepted for the sassiness or we're going to be reprimanding it all the time. But one of the reasons that we want to channel it somewhere is so that a parent, maybe a teacher, since there's some school stuff, has the opportunity to say right now is not the time for sassy. Maybe there's a different word you're using, but you get my point. Because if we are just telling her all the time not to maybe be herself, then we're going down a path of like, herself is not okay. We want herself to be okay, but we've gotta give her some guardrails of like, this is where you can shine your sassiness. And this is where we need to try really hard to follow the directions to, you know, I don't know what's going on at school, but to maybe make sure we're thinking about, you know, what other people's feelings feel like on the playground or whatever is going on. Because what I hear that mom saying too is that she's a little bit losing her mind, which is often how we feel when we don't have enough structure around our kids. And structure is sometimes, you know, confused for like discipline, but really it's like having systems in place, even having boundaries on, you know, times where our kids do push back on us. And there may be times where it's okay to push back because we love that our kids are opinionated. I have a psychologist, friend, colleague of mine that's like, what have we done raising all these kids that just speak their mind all the time. I'm like, yeah, we want all of them to feel empowered. Well, we're getting what we asked for because they are all telling us what they think. And when you add into that maybe some impulsivity and some sassy personality. We are wanting our kids to do these things, but we've got to put some. Some social boundaries around that. So if we can channel her energy in a way that we. It's celebrated, then you have an opportunity to say, okay, let's save that for the stage.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, I love that. And I want to. Our next question is actually an amalgamation of about 100 questions we got about medication. You were not a prescribing psychiatrist, so we got a ton of questions about nootropics and herbal remedies that, like, we're being fed. So what's your official stance and where can people go to find more information on this?

[Dr. Emily King]

Yeah, my stance on just where all the information is coming from is that I'm obviously pro science and I want you to do your homework. If you see something online, you're like, I've never heard of that before. Try to research it in a way that you actually get a research article online that has an abstract review that you can read or follow, someone that has the credentials of a doctorate who is a researcher, or whether an MD or PhDs also do research. And then, of course, ask the people in your child's life. So maybe that is. It could even be an occupational therapist or a speech language pathologist or a psychologist or. Or. And then some therapists are licensed clinical social workers or licensed mental health counselors. And all of that depends on what state you're in. So it's very confusing. It is. However, if there's a clinical provider that knows your child, that's the best person to go to for these answers. Because even though we could read more. You could read more about the research that may or may not be the best thing for your kid. What we know is, like, you know, definitely great for everyone is making sure we get enough sleep, because every single human is inattentive when we don't get enough sleep, and then making sure we're getting enough movement, because we absolutely have research on activity, exercise, movement, increasing our dopamine. And we know that we want more of that, and we know that lots of people with ADHD have differences in dopamine. And so talking with providers about that is the way to go, because I know a lot of parents are hungry for this information. So I'm always cautious with, like, when we're hungry for information, we're at risk for finding things that we don't, aren't fully vetted or we don't know. So the best thing to do is to talk to people who know your kid and also who are willing. You know, there are plenty of. A good provider is willing to be like, I haven't even heard of that yet. I mean, this has happened to me. Like, gosh, I haven't heard of that. Let me dig into the research and get back to you about what I think that's the best answer you can get from a provider because we don't have time to read everything.

[Kim Holderness]

So thank you very much for that because I didn't want to the listeners to think I was ignoring their questions because there were a lot about education.

[Dr. Emily King]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

Let's hear from a teacher. Yes, we've got Jody and Jodi is from Canada.

[Caller (Various)]

Hi there. This is Jodi Kashkar. My pronouns are she and her. I'm a high school teacher in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. And what my question is, is for the ADHD expert is like, how do I teach executive functioning skills? In my district, we're assigned students with IEPs or IPPS to support them. And at the high school level, it's mostly a matter of just making sure they're staying on track. But I know I have requested two ADHD students, boy and a girl, totally different, but both of them struggle with executive functioning and impulsivity. So how do I help them?

[Dr. Emily King]

Yeah, so even within executive functioning, like she said, these two students are totally different. One could have trouble with impulsivity and following through, and one could have trouble with getting started and staying organized. Like, there are all these different types of executive functioning skills. So think about your students and the patterns of weaknesses they have, but also the patterns of strength they have, because there could be a bridge you could build between the two. And so an example of something like that maybe they can never remember their belongings, but they are always so focused in history class, you know, or something that is they see, you see more executive functioning, often going back to the interest thing. Or maybe it's that they, you know, when they're in some class that they're allowed to move, their focus really increases. So one of the biggest things for teachers to do, especially middle and high school, where you have them for like maybe less than an hour a day and they've got seven or eight teachers email your colleagues or talk to you. I know you're like, never in the same room with your colleagues, but email your colleagues and say, hey, this is what I'm seeing. You know, this child's never getting their stuff out, or they're never getting started, or they get their stuff out and they just sit there. So it's like an initiation thing. Or they get started, but they can't go through to completion because they get distracted. Like, describe what you're seeing. Is anyone else seeing this? And is anyone else not seeing this? Because we need to figure out if there's something in those other environments that's helping that kid, and could we easily do that in the classroom we're in. And so really the answer to how do I teach executive functioning strategies is how do I teach executive functioning is the strategy. So figuring out what's going to scaffold and support that child's either attention or ability to initiate or ability to stay in it to completion. Sometimes that's visuals. Sometimes that is checking in, like shortening the time with which they're act. You know, sometimes that is using music, like you said, that has like a beginning and an end spot to check in. You know, when the song is over, I'm checking in and making sure I'm still paying attention. Sometimes music doesn't work for kids. It's distracting. So depends. So looking for those patterns, talking to your colleagues, and then coming up with some sort of system that could work for that kid to be independent. Because at high school level especially, this is the final frontier of finding a strategy for them in an academic environment at least, they're going to find plenty of strategies later in life too. But you have an opportunity to notice what's hard for them and how could you give them, you know, a visual or something that is going to be really helpful to help them feel successful in those situations.

[Penn Holderness]

This brings to light, I think, one of the main challenges, right, for workplaces, for schools, people, these. This teacher, understandably, is like, I got these two people. What do I do for them? And your immediate answer is, it's. It's not them. They're ADHD. It's a snowflake. There's no two that are alike. IEPs are all very, very individualized. Right. And so it's got to be tough for them. Right. Because they're teaching 30 kids, and if they have 30 kids and 30 of them all have individual special needs, that can be, I would say, nearly impossible.

[Dr. Emily King]

Yeah. So I would also encourage, especially high school teachers and middle school teachers. This goes back to the topic we were talking about of like the chronological Age, middle and high school teachers. I know y' all are, oh my gosh. Middle, middle school teachers. Bless you all. Bless you all.

[Penn Holderness]

Dealing with all kinds of stuff.

[Dr. Emily King]

However, just remember when we are Talking about chronological 12 year olds with ADHD, it could absolutely feel like you have a third grader in your class when it comes to organization.

[Penn Holderness]

Who looks like a 16 year old.

[Dr. Emily King]

Who looks like a 16 year old. So my answer to that everybody is different is do not underestimate parent collaboration. Even if your student is 15 years old. Like, we often get into this mindset of, like, got to get them as independent as possible. We got to get them, you know, cut the cord as soon as possible. But these kids are behind the curve on independence, on executive functioning, on emotional regulation, and it's okay to scaffold a little younger. And so what I would say is you might need to talk to those parents about what does this look like at home? Where am I starting with? You know, what can they do independently and where are we trying to get them to next? Because that's really the framework. It can be overwhelming to think I've got to do something different for every single one of these kids, but the framework is really the same. Where are they now? Where are we trying to get them? Like short term, long term goals. And usually with adhd, it's just chaining together as many short term goals as you can because they're not really thinking about the delayed gratification we are, but they're not. And that brings me to a strategy I often use with high schoolers and sometimes middle schoolers that I just made up working with kids in therapy called the backwards timeline, which is when they don't have motivation to do whatever's in front of them. Like I don't have motivation to do this worksheet. Well, what, where is their motivation? Their motivation may be that they want to live on their own one day. Okay, you want to live on your own one day? So we put that on like the right side of the whiteboard and then we're going to work it backwards. What do you need? Need to live on your own one day?

[Penn Holderness]

Well, independent income.

[Dr. Emily King]

I would need to have money. Okay, how are you going to get money? I would need to have a job. How are you going to get a job? Oh, I need to graduate from high school. Okay. How are you going to graduate from high school? I have to pass these classes. How are you going to pass these classes? I think I have to do the worksheet.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, Emotional valence. Emotional valence.

[Dr. Emily King]

So it's a visual and it can help sometimes kids that cannot see past the moment.

[Kim Holderness]

This brings me to another call from. I think her name is Shannon. I have to, we're going to hear her say Shannon. But I, I listened to Shannon. I, I listened to it. Shannon about helping her 18 year old with basic executive functioning. We got probably 20 messages from moms about their 15 to 18 year old boys in executive functioning, but only moms of boys. We did not get these. And that doesn't mean that does not exist for girls. But there's a lot here. So let's play this message. We'll get into this and then I want to know about, like, why was I hearing from girl moms? Okay.

[Caller (Various)]

Hi, my name is Shannon. Sounds like Shannon, but it's Shannon. I am from.

[Penn Holderness]

You're so proud of yourself for doing.

[Kim Holderness]

Your homework right now.

[Caller (Various)]

I am struggling right now with my ADHD laden son. He is 18. He will be heading off to junior college maybe, hopefully. So basic executive functioning. How does one help an 18 year old in that and in a transition to junior college? I actually am not concerned about the college part. I'm only concerned about could he even wake himself up to go. Any tips and hints would be greatly appreciated.

[Dr. Emily King]

Yeah, so this goes to the like, discrepancy of academic skills and life skills.

[Kim Holderness]

Sounds like he's great academically.

[Dr. Emily King]

Right. And so she's not worried about academic skills. And this just proves the point. And I write about this, there's a whole chapter on this in my book, y'.

[Kim Holderness]

All.

[Dr. Emily King]

This proves the point that intelligence is independent from executive functioning.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes.

[Dr. Emily King]

You can be very intelligent and still struggle with executive functioning. And young children and sometimes middle school children think, gosh, I'm so dumb because I can't do all these things. And then in the teen years it turns into like, well, I don't care. Because I don't care is easier than I can't.

[Kim Holderness]

Right.

[Dr. Emily King]

So we hear I don't care a lot from teens. And because they know they, they see what's going on around them, they know that it looks easier for other kids and they don't know what to do about it. So it's much easier whether you're a neurotypical teen or not, just to be like, I don't care. Right.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Emily King]

Because there's probably a skill weakness in there somewhere. And so first, I want every one of teens to remember. I feel like there's a theme emerging. It's okay if your kid is chronologically 18. It's okay to think about them as a younger child for some of these skills. Because if we don't, we will get so frustrated with them.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Emily King]

So we might have to, like, back it up in our mind of, like, okay, chronological age out the window. What is my kid capable of right now? Can they, like, when can they wake themselves up ever? Do they ever do it? Okay, if they don't ever do it, then that may not be a skill we're ready to go independent with yet. And so I get this question a lot, and I live this in my life too, is the difference between being academically ready for school and being. And ready to live on your own. And so there are many kids that will live at home, but yet go to community college or a university where they're a day student. Right. Because they're still working on home skills for that 18 to 20 range. And that's okay. Yes, I want people to hear that. That is okay. And they may need another couple of years of brain development because our frontal lobes are not fully developed till we're 25. And so if we're thinking about them behind the curve, you may be still scaffolding and coaching and parenting with those skills around a younger child. So again, we're going to talk about strategies of what is. What are you going to focus on? Because you can't change everything at once. So focus on the emerging skills. So when I talked before about not even close to being independent, emerging skills, and then they've got it. They're doing it on their own. We really struggle. We're gonna struggle to go from not even doing it to independent. We can't skip the middle. I call this the learning circle. We can't skip the middle. Everything's gotta go through the learning circle. And it's really uncomfortable in there.

[Kim Holderness]

So hard.

[Dr. Emily King]

So we're working on the emerging skills, which means they may do it inconsistently. They may do it if they're rested and have a full belly. You know, they may do it if they're in a good mood. But then if the stars are not aligned, they can't do the skill. So we're focusing on what's emerging and then the strategies they need to practice and then putting in the reps to do that and stepping back, because I do think we all get a little nervous if our kid stays home after high school for a couple more years, that they're never gonna leave. But we have to remember that, you know, every kid is on their own path of. Of independence, which is separate from academic success and achievement. And so Think of those as two different things.

[Kim Holderness]

We are not the representative of the entire world. But if I say we got 50 voicemails and 20 of them were moms concerned about their teenage boys and zero of them were concerned about their teenage girls with adhd. But we got plenty of other girl questions, but not about like, motivation, executive functioning. What is happening that's different in those brains?

[Dr. Emily King]

I don't know for sure, but I have some theories.

[Kim Holderness]

Tell me.

[Dr. Emily King]

So there's a, there's a cultural factor here of gender norms. Right. Of we are, we sometimes raise girls to be people pleasers and we push them into achieving things. So there could possibly be, you know, this subset of girls with ADHD that, as we all know, with many women who are getting late, diagnosed in adulthood and say, oh my gosh, school wasn't this hard for everyone.

[Penn Holderness]

They are hardwired to not say, I don't care.

[Dr. Emily King]

Right, Right. So there are two things. There's the social, you know, how we kind of think about, talk about, raise girls cultural thing, and then there's the actual hardwired stuff of. And this is a generalization, but boys tend to be more hyperactive, impulsive, and girls tend to be more inattentive, which flies under the radar because they're not squeaky wheels. Now, there are plenty of girls who are hyperactive, impulsive. Usually that shows up more as talkativeness. And those girls will get in trouble for talking too much. And that might be what's going on with our sassy 6 year old. I don't know, but we've got to just channel that into an environment that works. But when we think about the differences biologically, it's possible that since the girls are not the squeaky wheels, they may be able to, you know, get more positive feedback from teachers. They may get better teacher student interactions through the years. You know, these are just some theories that I've always kind of thought about. And I don't know, I mean, I, I'd love to dive into the research on this, this question because now I'm getting curious about it. But in terms of, you know, boys and girls, by the time they get to the teen years, they might, you know, boys might be more defeated if they've gotten reprimanded a lot more for squeaky wheel type of behaviors, whether that's emotional explosions or aggression or touching things impulsively and not keeping their hands to themselves or climbing stuff or whatever the thing is. And is that resonating just to do?

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, all of it. The defeated part, like just how many times I got corrected when I was growing up and, and just not, I mean, you probably saw it on my face.

[Dr. Emily King]

I did. I just saw your face drop.

[Penn Holderness]

And, and just like, and I stayed home for a year after college. Like I had a tough time in college and I thought, okay, this is just my lot in life. And then I found like sports casting, jazz hands, and it paid $13,000 a year. But I was happy for the first time time in my life. Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Dr. Emily King]

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[Penn Holderness]

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But I'm your hype man. When you purchase an eligible device, you get $25 off every month for 12 months with credits totaling one year of free service, taxes extra for the device and service plan online only.

[Dr. Emily King]

So I think we've got to follow, follow our kids joy first of all. But I do think that I just wonder about that experience of feeling defeated by the teen years and how much that has to do with, with parent concerns of pulling kids through that adolescent time, which is the hardest time to raise neurodivergent kids too, because we get piled on top of that, you know, hormones. But also this, this motivation difference of like, I'm only motivated what by what I want to be motivated by. And I don't care what anyone else thinks. And that's incredibly hard to parent. So I think parents, parents get, you know, really worried about going from that point to beyond.

[Kim Holderness]

So for the. So what I'm hearing is, so Shannon's son is 18. Hopefully he's going to junior college. I bet that that reverse timeline tool maybe probably work pretty well. And just picking the things he's emerging at.

[Dr. Emily King]

Where is his joy? Even if it's these small little sparks.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Emily King]

We want to start with where that is and it of kind expand it versus which I think of like a bottom up approach versus this top down of like do it because I say so or do it because this is the expectation. Like that's we can have that long term in our mind, but we won't be able to gain any traction with, you know, coming along with our teenagers if we don't join them in their. Their joy or their interest. Help them feel validated by like, life must not feel great right now because you're not doing anything that's fun.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Emily King]

You know, and I don't know if that pertains to her particular son or just in general, but thinking about how we can expand that little tiny moment of joy beyond the house or beyond what they do on their daily life.

[Kim Holderness]

Next up, we have a call from June. She's disagreeing with how her coach is positioning her son.

[Caller (Various)]

I have a 7 year old ADHD boy. My question for Dr. King is organized sports. We have embarked on the competitive soccer world. Very, very new to it. And we did little league for a few years, but he was pretty good. But he was bored. Right. The whole standing around thing was too much for him. So because of his high energy, he's already been kind of labeled as fearless. And the coach is pushing for him to be the goalkeeper. But in my observations of my son, he is best suited to be out on the field running around because when you put him in a box at the end of the field where he's kind of isolated, he tends to act out. And I'm having trouble getting through to the coach. Just curious if you have any advice.

[Penn Holderness]

Oh my gosh. Can I jump in first?

[Dr. Emily King]

Yeah, you answer this first.

[Penn Holderness]

So I was a goalie for the first.

[Dr. Emily King]

Were you tall? And they were like, that guy needs to be in the goal.

[Penn Holderness]

But also like the impulsiveness. I don't know what it is. Like I had really good reflexes. I was a good goalie. I remember I got carried off the field one time like I was like eight. But they carried like, you know.

[Dr. Emily King]

Did you.

[Kim Holderness]

Did you enjoy it?

[Penn Holderness]

No, I hated it so much. Oh, this is really. I'm trying to tell you this. I begged them to take me out of goalie. Like, that's all.

[Kim Holderness]

I can't imagine you not being the kid who's running around.

[Penn Holderness]

Right.

[Dr. Emily King]

So why did you hate it?

[Penn Holderness]

Because you're standing there and like, okay, couple things. Like, imagine the emotion. I knew that.

[Dr. Emily King]

I just wanted you to say it.

[Penn Holderness]

Well, it's not just staying there, but also, like, imagine the emotional flooding. Like when you let in a goal, you feel like it is 100% your.

[Dr. Emily King]

Fault and the only everyone is looking at you.

[Penn Holderness]

Yes.

[Kim Holderness]

Whereas there's all these other people that it got through.

[Dr. Emily King]

Right. Like it's their.

[Penn Holderness]

Their freaking fault. No, it's. A lot of times it was my fault too. I hated goalie, but I was good at it.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Penn Holderness]

So sorry, go ahead.

[Dr. Emily King]

So this is actually a similar answer to whether a teacher is. This is happening with the teacher and administrator. So I would want to know from the coach, what are the coaches goals, pun intended, for these kids? Like, it. Is it to, you know, actually get her son's, you know, ball skills better or, you know, passing teamwork skills better? What. What is the goal? My in. So then you piggyback on that of like, okay, I don't think having my son in the goalie will help you reach those goals because my son needs to run my son. Or there may be a strength that her son has that's not being tapped into when he's in the goal.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Emily King]

So we want to think about the framework of, like, when we're talking to someone who may not be fully understanding our child, what are their goals for the classroom, the team, the school, you know, or what they want our kid to be able to do. And then we can follow up if. If this is true, I don't think my kid's gonna be able to do that in these circumstances. I think my kid could contribute to this team in this way and be really successful.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, next is a call from Kyra or Kyra. Kyra.

[Caller (Various)]

Hi, this is Kyra from Indiana. My question for you and Dr. King is my son is 11 years old, started sixth grade, which is middle school here, and he's having a lot of trouble with forgetting homework, missed assignments, or I sent him to school with a finished assignment, he forgot to turn it in. So some tips to help him keep track of his work when it's due. Remembering to turn it in. I don't want him to be completely dependent on us. And his teachers. For that, I would like to come up with a plan that helps us teach him to learn how to keep track of that for himself.

[Penn Holderness]

Thank you so much to Kyra. To be honest, we've never heard of this happening with anyone from adhd.

[Kim Holderness]

That's so unique.

[Penn Holderness]

Never kidding.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh my gosh, everyone, this is my jam.

[Penn Holderness]

Exactly. Everyone.

[Kim Holderness]

Such a universal issue.

[Dr. Emily King]

Back to the sixth grade ADHD brain which might be keeping up with their papers. Right? Like a second or third grader. Quite possible. So we definitely want to just know that you might be supporting them throughout this year or middle school and that is okay. The long term goal is to not do it for them. The sixth grade goal might not be to do it for them. However, I would say at middle school we want to do with. We want to do it with them, not for them. Elementary school is a little bit more for. Middle school is a little bit more with. So I have some strategies we can link to for sure because I have like a whole parent workshop on this.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Dr. Emily King]

I have a system that I created, a binder system I created. I use it with my own boys, I use it with clients. Just a three ring binder. And you have to buy dividers that have pockets.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Dr. Emily King]

Okay. Pocket dividers, preferably where the top half of the paper is showing. None of this, this, none of this pocket where it goes in and you can't see it. The top half of the paper is showing and you're writing on each divider. The classroom, the teacher, the subject. And that pocket is like work. Either work in or work out. You could call it homework, you could call it the working file, whatever it is. So the paper comes from the teacher to the pocket. Now actually delivery system, actually what happens is the paper is jammed in the bottom of the backpack when it comes home. So you sit with your child every afternoon and you, you flatten out the paper and you're like this goes in this pocket because this is homework. And then you go through all the papers and you get all the papers into every subject because at least here in middle school they have somewhere between seven and eight classes. And then when it gets done, it goes back to school in that pocket. And you probably are going to have to have some sort of plan with your child's teacher that that is where the homework is. And they may need a strategy. They may have an accommodation on an iep, something to help that teacher prompt of look for your homework. What I hear most from parents is that they want to go from the child. Doesn't have the skill to. The child is independent.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Emily King]

We have to do it with them for a while before we help them. Do I mean literally think about this like you're teaching your kid to tie shoes. You don't just hand them the shoes. And you're like, like, show them one time and be like, you got it right.

[Penn Holderness]

Like helping them along the way to teach them how to do it. It's kind of like catch a fish and give it to a guy who'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish.

[Dr. Emily King]

Totally.

[Penn Holderness]

He'll eat for a lifetime.

[Dr. Emily King]

And I know.

[Penn Holderness]

Try to teach an adhder how to fish. He'll leave the rod on the end of the pier. End of the pier.

[Kim Holderness]

And I know it's like, why am I hungry?

[Dr. Emily King]

Not the greatest news for everyone who wants less work, but trust me, like it this daily sit down, get in a rhythm and a practice with your kid. Organizing binders is so much better than getting into a conflict with them later. Yeah, I hear you so much better.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. Kate from IG and this. This came up with a lot of different ages. But how's. How important is it to get a diagnosis? My son is 17 and he obviously has ADHD. Will a diagnosis help him get resources at this point? We got that question a lot over various different age ranges.

[Penn Holderness]

And the age is important for this one.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, this is 17, but we got some twelves. We got. Got some 15.

[Dr. Emily King]

Sure. So I always think about a diagnosis. A clinical diagnosis is helpful for two reasons. When kids need access to services and when people want to understand their brain. So there's this like no man's land somewhere in the preteen years where kids are like too old to want a diagnosis because they don't want to be labeled so that they don't have a diagnosis. It's hard to be like, I want to get you tested to figure out what's going on with you. It can be a hard sell if you feel like your, your kid isn't noticing their differences or they have some shame about their differences. Or it can be an easy sell because you could be like, good news. If we figure this out, we can give you strategies. It just depends on the kid. We're talking about 17, the independence, the, the, you know, identity ship has sailed. Right. Like this kid is, is totally thinking about themselves with their own identity. So we need to start with what is. What is in a diagnosis for that kid. Now it could be that a 17 year old, if they're going to college, they do need a diagnosis. To access student services at whatever college they're going to. It could be that they need a diagnosis because they do want to talk to a doctor about medication. You would need a diagnosis for insurance purposes or for accommodations in schooling in any way. Some people want to know to help figure out how to tell a manager at a job, like, what's going on. Like, they're not just forgetting everything. This is a part of their neurodivergence, and they're working on it. Again, not an excuse, but an explanation. Right. However, if none of those things are motivating for that person and it doesn't seem like they need to know, it's okay not to get a diagnosis. But usually at 17, it's more about, I want to know because I want to understand my brain.

[Penn Holderness]

Bingo.

[Dr. Emily King]

And they may not need need accommodations to something, but they may need to feel okay about themselves.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

Look, if you think you're broken and you're alone and there's something wrong with you, an explanation is better than no explanation.

[Dr. Emily King]

Explanation is great. It also connects you to other people. It's identity for yourself. But identity immediately opens us up to belonging, and it's getting into talking about, oh, there are so many other people with adhd. And then you can feel not alone. And then that often helps with the. The mental wellness aspect of getting a diagnosis.

[Penn Holderness]

It's been so awesome. I'm going to start a new segment here on laugh lines that Sam doesn't even know about, but she's going to have to make an open for Sam. You want to jump in really quickly? Okay, here's like, I would love this from you. Like, let me know. Okay. Can we do something called pens nugs? Like nuggets. Like, nuggets of info. Okay, let's workshop it. So maybe just Kim and I were.

[Dr. Emily King]

Like, so you want chicken nuggets. Nuggets flying on the screen?

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, exactly. So, like, I want there to be, like, three or four, like, really good nuggets that we got from the interview.

[Dr. Emily King]

Okay.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay. So not nugs. Is nuggets better?

[Dr. Emily King]

I think let's go with the full nuggets.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay, so this.

[Dr. Emily King]

Sorry. So are. Are.

[Penn Holderness]

Is it better if I don't say pens nuggets? Is that, like, so.

[Dr. Emily King]

Hold on.

[Kim Holderness]

Let's daydream. This is a. Is a chicken nugget flying, and then it has pen's face.

[Penn Holderness]

So at the end, because there's like three things or four things that I get, and I'm like, man, those were all really great.

[Dr. Emily King]

So like, a recap.

[Penn Holderness]

A Recap of like what I really love from the, from the interview.

[Dr. Emily King]

Is it like this all the time.

[Kim Holderness]

All the time. And so maybe what also happens is we get a nugget sponsor.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

And so somebody calls in and you get free nuggets.

[Penn Holderness]

That. Huh. How about this? We're gonna call it three piece Nuggets.

[Dr. Emily King]

Oh, I like that. That moves my brain from the first perception.

[Penn Holderness]

I know what you were thinking. I know what you're all worth. So let's go three pieces. So I've got to do it now.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay. So let's go to the three piece nuggets. Better name. All right, so here's the three things that I absolutely love that I never. It's usually something I'd never heard before. Right. I loved the, the kind of the path from I don't know how to do this to emerging to independent. That really works for my brain. I think it's great advice for a parent. I do. I love one of the last things that you said, which was identity turns into belonging when it comes to realizing what it is that you have when it's adhd. And I absolutely love the reverse timeline. Right. Like you like that one too.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. But honestly, what I love most about all of these like ADHD systems is they work for every brain.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Emily King]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

So like I. I could put that to work in my own life. Anyway, we got so many questions and I feel bad because I read them all you guys and I made a list of them all. But. But it is now like the sun has set. Like there's. We've taken up so much.

[Penn Holderness]

We've given you the nuggets.

[Dr. Emily King]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

That's a stopping point.

[Dr. Emily King]

Yeah. Yeah. There's one strategy I really think we should share.

[Penn Holderness]

Let's go to. It's a four piece meal.

[Kim Holderness]

It's a four piece meal.

[Penn Holderness]

They have those at Bojangles a little bit.

[Dr. Emily King]

So it's a little bit related to visuals and the timeline. But it's what I call showing kids what done looks like. Ooh. So when we're thinking about multi step directions, we've got really solid research that ADHD brains do not do well with verbal directions. Like, we really should not be expecting ADHD brains to have any positive outcomes if we just tell them what to do verbally. And I like to think of it a little bit like we're speaking foreign languages. Like we're speaking two different languages. I'm speaking verbally. And they are needing some sort of visualization of what we mean. So if we say something like get ready to go. What does that look like?

[Penn Holderness]

Gotta be more specific.

[Dr. Emily King]

Exactly.

[Kim Holderness]

You're like, I'm awake. Does that mean I'm ready?

[Dr. Emily King]

Exactly. So if you're out there and you're like, why is my kid never ready? Why is my kid, you know, not waking up? Why is my kid this or that? Think about what your words are saying. And they may not be concrete enough. They really may not be. And so think about what you need done to look like. So when I talk to teachers, I always have the art teacher raise their hand, because art teachers are great at this. They always show you the end of the project. They're like, when we finish this project, this is what it's going to look like. And then you can visualize what it's going to look like. Like, all the steps to begin. So we have to translate our verbal language from what we say to what does done look like? So this could be. What does that folder look like when it needs to go. Done. Needs to go back to school. This binder needs to look like this to be able to go back to school. We could take a picture of it. We could have a whole folder on an iPhone of pictures of what Dunn looks like. And it could be your kid fully dressed. It could be your kid's bed made. It could be your kids, you know, toothbrushes in its home. So I also call this. Everything has a home where we can say, what does done look like? When, like, all my belongings are where they're supposed to be. So we can have a picture of that and. And just thinking about your kid and what that. What their motivation will be. But also they'll feel so successful if they can actually do what we're asking. And if we keep getting frustrated with them because they're not ready. But have we told them what ready looks like?

[Kim Holderness]

This is so good.

[Penn Holderness]

And we talk about this in our house all the time. Do you remember the exact instructions challenge that they had on YouTube?

[Kim Holderness]

This is like 10 years ago.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, it was a long time ago. I think you're the one who realized that's kind of what it's like talking to someone with executive functioning issues.

[Kim Holderness]

The thing was, okay, just have your kids describe how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. And it's like, get the bread and then put the peanut butter on it. But, like, you never told me to get the bread out of the plastic packaging. You never put peanut butter on the ground.

[Penn Holderness]

You're the best.

[Kim Holderness]

You're the best.

[Penn Holderness]

We cannot wait for your book to be finished. It is.

[Dr. Emily King]

The working title is the Neurodivergent Learner.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay, love that. Available for pre order. We think maybe around early 2026.

[Dr. Emily King]

Yep, early 2026. We hope. It is a book for parents raising kids, any. Any type of neurodivergence. But I'm mainly focusing on autism, ADHD, and twice exceptionality. So gifted and learning disabilities. So part of the book goes into, you know, learning in school. Got so much about collaborating with teachers. Every chapter has an email script of what to write to a teacher if you're concerned, because I know that is so hard of like, I, you know, parents are like, what do I say? I don't want to step on their toes. But I'm really concerned. So I'm going to walk you through that and chat scripts for your kids. At the end of each chapter, we talk about homework and testing and all the things that can go wrong. My favorite chapter so far is hold on, the school is calling.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh my gosh. We've all been like, it's going to.

[Dr. Emily King]

Be a good chapter. And then, and then the last part of the book is about learning outside of the classroom and empowering them through their independence. Some of the stuff we've talked about today and through their interaction, interests. And then of course, I'm gonna round it out with talking about how we can help all of our neurotypical peers and community members understand our kids. Because finding their allies, finding their community, it's not just about asking them to do the work. It's about building the circle wider to help other teenagers, other young adults, teachers, community members to. To really get where these kids need support.

[Kim Holderness]

I can't wait to have you back on the podcast. Oh, I can't wait to come back.

[Penn Holderness]

You are always a joy.

[Kim Holderness]

A joy. I learned so much.

[Penn Holderness]

If you have any more questions for her.

[Dr. Emily King]

Where I want people to go is to Substack. So I'm really active on Substack. So I. All my blogs are always free. No paywall ever for blogs on Substack and it's learn with dremily.substack.com um, but then I host workshops. So the first Friday of every month I host live parent workshops and then they are posted on Substack as video posts. So if you are a paid subscriber on Substack, you can see all the workshops anyway. Or you can come one at a time because I know not every workshop topic is for everyone. But I don't talk just about adhd. I also talk about autism and twice exceptionality, parent stuff. Teacher stuff, extracurricular stuff, sibling stuff, travel, all the things. So that's where I'd love parents to go if you're listening. And then if you're a teacher, you can also find information on my professional development on my website and that's called the Neurodiverse Classroom.

[Penn Holderness]

And I want to say really quickly, one of your superpowers is even though this is an incredibly individual thing that we have, that these brains have, that these ADHD brains have, you do a really good job of patiently trying to work through and give generalized help sometimes that I think can be used for a lot of people.

[Dr. Emily King]

Thank you.

[Kim Holderness]

Thank you very much, Dr. Emily.

[Penn Holderness]

You're the best. Okay, so we're wrapping up the show and we have to read the credits. Should we let Emily read the credits?

[Kim Holderness]

Sunny, do you want to read them?

[Penn Holderness]

Can you guys see Sunny?

[Kim Holderness]

No? Now.

[Penn Holderness]

Now you can. Laugh Lines is written and produced by Kim Holderness, Pen Holderness and Ann Marie Tapke with original music by Pen Holderness. It is filmed, edited and live produced by Sam Allen and hosted by acast. As always, we'd love to hear from you. Please write to us at podcastheholdernessfamily.com or leave a voicemail at 323-364-3929 and we will talk to you soon on the lav lines. Bye, Sunny.

[Dr. Emily King]

Byee only Boost Mobile Boost Mobile will give you a free year of service. Free year when you buy a new 5G phone.

[Penn Holderness]

New 5G phone?

[Dr. Emily King]

Enough.

[Penn Holderness]

But I'm your hype man. When you purchase an eligible device, you get $25 off every month for 12 months with credits totaling one year of free service. Taxes extra for the 20 device and service plan online only.

[Dr. Emily King]

Consider this your sign to skip the what's for dinner debate. Tonight, Outback steakhouse has a three course meal starting at just $14.99. Start with soup or salad, then take your pick of down under entrees like our juicy towering burger or flame grilled shrimp. And for dessert, New York style cheesecake. Plus $8 cocktails all day every day. Three courses starting at 14.99. Tell the group chat you'll see them at Outback. Price and participation may vary.

[Penn Holderness]

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