Unraveling Sibling Success with Susan Dominus

Summary

Episode Summary: "Unraveling Sibling Success with Susan Dominus"

Podcast: Laugh Lines with Kim & Penn Holderness
Hosts: Kim & Penn Holderness
Guest: Susan Dominus
Release Date: March 25, 2025

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1. Introduction to Susan Dominus and Her Work

Timestamp: [07:33]

Kim and Penn Holderness warmly welcome Susan Dominus, an esteemed journalist with the New York Times since 2007, a Yale University journalism instructor, and a Pulitzer Prize recipient. They highlight her upcoming book, "The Family Dynamic," set for release on May 6th, which delves into how family structures and sibling relationships shape individual success.

Notable Quote:
"The Family Dynamic" has been called a must-read by bestselling author Adam Grant and is lauded for its captivating insights into how our early family experiences influence later achievements.
— Penn Holderness [07:53]

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2. Susan Dominus's Fascination with Family Dynamics

Timestamp: [08:05]

Susan shares her personal journey of becoming intrigued by family dynamics, stemming from her childhood experiences of staying with different families during her parents' absences. These experiences sparked her interest in how varying family cultures influence the development of siblings.

Notable Quote:
"When you live with another family, you really start to realize how different every family culture is."
— Susan Dominus [08:27]

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3. Defining "Exceptional" Families

Timestamp: [10:54]

The conversation explores what makes a family "exceptional." Susan clarifies that her focus isn't solely on high-achieving families but on those where siblings pursue varied paths, overcoming odds with a shared sense of possibility and optimism.

Notable Quote:
"It was a sense of all things possible. Hope and optimism were central themes in these families."
— Susan Dominus [14:05]

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4. The Secret Sauce: Hope and Optimism

Timestamp: [14:05]

Susan identifies hope and optimism as the foundational elements that enable families to nurture exceptional children. These values create an environment where children believe in their potential and are encouraged to pursue their dreams without undue pressure.

Notable Quote:
"Hope and optimism are a huge part of fostering exceptional children."
— Susan Dominus [14:56]

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5. The Role of Siblings in Shaping Success

Timestamp: [15:34]

The discussion shifts to sibling dynamics, emphasizing how siblings often serve as catalysts for each other's growth. Susan highlights that close sibling relationships can lead to mutual encouragement and support, which significantly contribute to individual achievements.

Notable Quote:
"Siblings help pull each other along and shape each other's lives in profound ways."
— Susan Dominus [17:10]

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6. Parenting Strategies: Balancing Expectations and Independence

Timestamp: [24:12]

Kim and Susan explore effective parenting methods that balance setting reasonable expectations with fostering independence. Susan warns against excessively high expectations, which can lead to anxiety and strained relationships. Instead, she advocates for understanding each child's unique needs and encouraging them in ways that align with their interests.

Notable Quote:
"If you set the expectations too high, it's going to be counterproductive and hurt your relationship with your child."
— Susan Dominus [24:55]

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7. Personal Reflections and Parental Regrets

Timestamp: [27:00]

Susan shares personal anecdotes about her twins, illustrating how even with consistent parenting practices, children develop unique personalities. Both Susan and the Holdernesses reflect on moments they wish they had approached differently, emphasizing that allowing children space to struggle fosters resilience and independence.

Notable Quote:
"If I could do anything over again, it would be to let my kids struggle a little more and find their own way."
— Susan Dominus [28:25]

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8. Modeling Behavior and Reducing Over-Involvement

Timestamp: [41:29]

The hosts discuss the importance of modeling positive behaviors rather than over-involving themselves in their children's activities. Susan praises the approach of being present without being overbearing, allowing children to develop intrinsic motivation and independence.

Notable Quote:
"Kids benefit from having space and knowing that they're going to be okay even if you're not there."
— Susan Dominus [42:09]

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9. Sibling Roles and Their Impact on Personal Development

Timestamp: [35:16]

Susan delves into how siblings often embody specific roles within the family, such as the responsible older sibling or the resilient youngest. These roles influence their behavior and success outside the family unit, shaping their interactions and achievements in broader social contexts.

Notable Quote:
"Siblings may fill a role within the family that doesn't necessarily translate to how they act in the wider world."
— Susan Dominus [36:22]

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10. Overarching Themes and Final Thoughts

Timestamp: [48:19]

As the conversation wraps up, Susan emphasizes that success is multifaceted and not solely defined by achievements. She stresses the importance of families supporting each other through ups and downs, fostering a sense of community and mutual assistance that transcends individual accomplishments.

Notable Quote:
"The most inspiring aspect wasn't about success, but how families rallied around each other."
— Susan Dominus [48:13]

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11. Hosts' Top Five Hopes for Their Kids

Timestamp: [50:51] - [54:16]

Kim and Penn share their personal top five aspirations for their children, blending practical skills with whimsical hopes, reflecting a balanced approach to parenting that values both tangible abilities and emotional intelligence.

Penn's Top Five:

1. College: Exceptional experiences and personal growth over GPA.
2. Saving and Investing Money: Financial literacy.
3. Flying Jetpacks: Embracing future innovations.
4. Love: Mastery of emotional connections.
5. Caring for the Elderly: Compassion and responsibility.

Kim's Reflections:
Kim echoes similar sentiments, emphasizing the importance of modeling positive behaviors and fostering independence without excessive pressure.

---

Conclusion

"Unraveling Sibling Success with Susan Dominus" offers deep insights into how family dynamics and sibling relationships influence personal development and success. Through engaging conversations and personal anecdotes, the Holdernesses and Dominus explore the delicate balance between parental involvement and fostering independence, highlighting the pivotal role of hope and optimism in nurturing exceptional individuals.

For those interested in further exploring these themes, Susan Dominus's book, "The Family Dynamic," is available for pre-order and promises to expand on the compelling discussions presented in this episode.

---

Connect with Susan Dominus:

• Instagram: @susedominus
• Twitter (Blue Sky): @susedominus
• Publications: New York Times

Pre-Order "The Family Dynamic": Available on major book retailers starting May 6th.

Transcript

[Kim Holderness]

Hey Penn, have you ever had this conversation? You meet someone, they say, hey, how you doing? And without thinking you just reply, I'm good. You?

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, of course. Right.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, I decided when I say I'm good, I want to meet it. That's why I'm using Headspace.

[Penn Holderness]

Great.

[Susan Dominus]

So Headspace is the app that helps me and 100 million people with their mental health and well being with guided meditations, mindfulness practices, breathing and calming exercises, and so much more.

[Kim Holderness]

It reduces stress, boosts your mood, and helps you sleep better. By combining scientifically proven benefits of medit and mindfulness with modern practices, the app.

[Susan Dominus]

Has these customized personalized approaches to help you navigate through all of life's moments, whether they're big or small.

[Kim Holderness]

If you're a total newbie or have been meditating for years, there's always content for what you're going through.

[Susan Dominus]

And if you're short on time, Headspace has these quick on the go programs that help you get in the right headspace in just a few minutes.

[Kim Holderness]

With more than 1000 hours of mindfulness exercises, it's got the most complete meditation library I've ever seen. I can feel my mental health getting a boost by taking a few minutes minutes every day, listening to the programming and reframing my relationship with stress and anxiety.

[Susan Dominus]

So feel good and mean it when you say it. For a limited time, get Headspace for.

[Penn Holderness]

Free for 60 days just go to.

[Susan Dominus]

Headspace.Comholderness yes h e a d s p a c e dot com Holderness to unlock all of Headspace.

[Kim Holderness]

Free for 60 days headspace.com Holderness Penn, you feeling that spring travel itch?

[Penn Holderness]

Oh, you know it. I'm looking outside. The sun is shining. It's perfect out.

[Susan Dominus]

I'm ready to head to the beach.

[Kim Holderness]

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[Susan Dominus]

Yeah, like the lightweight European linen styles from $30, washable silk tops and comfy lounge sets with premium luggage options and.

[Penn Holderness]

Stylish tote bags that carry it all.

[Kim Holderness]

The best part?

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[Susan Dominus]

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[Kim Holderness]

I'm definitely going to be grabbing an Italian leather pouch travel set to upgrade my makeup for our next Vacay.

[Susan Dominus]

And I may need to grab like.

[Penn Holderness]

A new toiletry bag as well.

[Susan Dominus]

For your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from Quint's. Go to quince.comholderness for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order.

[Kim Holderness]

That's Q U I n c e.com Holderness to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Holderness Hey Penn. Have you ever had this conversation? You meet someone, they say, hey, how you doing? And without thinking, you just reply, I'm good. You?

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, of course. Right.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, I decided when I say I'm good, I want to meet it. That's why I'm using Headspace.

[Susan Dominus]

Great. So Headspace is the app that helps me and 100 million people with their mental health and well being with guided meditations, mindfulness practices, breathing and calming exercises, and so much more.

[Kim Holderness]

It reduces stress, boosts your mood, and helps you sleep better. By combining scientifically proven benefits of meditation and mindfulness with modern practices, the app.

[Susan Dominus]

Has these customized personalized approaches to help you navigate through all of life's moments, whether they're big or small.

[Kim Holderness]

If you're a total newbie or have been meditating for years. Years, there's always content for what you're going through.

[Susan Dominus]

And if you're short on time, Headspace has these quick on the go programs that help you get in the right headspace in just a few minutes.

[Kim Holderness]

With more than 1000 hours of mindfulness exercises, it's got the most complete meditation library I've ever seen. I can feel my mental health getting a boost by taking a few minutes every day, listening to the programming, and reframing my relationship with stress and anxiety.

[Susan Dominus]

So feel good and mean it when you say it. For a limited time, get Headspace for.

[Penn Holderness]

Free for 60 days.

[Susan Dominus]

Just go to headspace.com holderness yes. H-E-A-S-P-A C E.com holderness to unlock all of headspace. Free for 60 days.

[Kim Holderness]

Headspace.com holderness.

[Penn Holderness]

We'Re not lumen here. If you watch Severance, we don't say you have to use monosyllabic words.

[Susan Dominus]

You have a nice growth mindse.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes, we do. Hey everybody, I'm Kim Holderness.

[Penn Holderness]

And I'm Penn Holderness. And you have found the Holderness Family podcast. Congratulations.

[Kim Holderness]

We talk about a lot of things on this podcast.

[Penn Holderness]

We do. I was just doing like a list in my head. We'd talk about perimenopause, adhd, getting old, butt Stuff, but stuff that was a recent one we did, butt stuff that was a colonoscopy, a lot of health related stuff. Right.

[Kim Holderness]

You know, and it' it's just where we can follow where we're curious.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

And this week we're going to be talking about parenting and family dynamics and sibling relationships. And I am deeply and endlessly curious about this topic.

[Penn Holderness]

Yes. And I can back that up. You've been talking about this since way before we heard about this woman who wrote a fantastic book about it. You've always been curious about the roles that different people play according to birth order and also just kind of the nature versus nurture argument. I think you've always been curious about when it comes to raising kids, it.

[Kim Holderness]

Is like a science experiment sitting at your kitchen table every single night because you have these two kids that are. You feed them the same and you provide for them in the same way and you drive them to the same school even. And yet they just are so completely different. So I am just. I'm fascinated by it. Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

And meanwhile, I also believe that you're gonna screw up your kids no matter what, and you just don't really know how until it's all over. Right. But you're gonna screw up. You're not gonna get everything right. So we're gonna get done. We're gonna look at the scoreboard and we're gonna high five each other hopefully and say we raised some pretty good kids. But. Oh, yeah, I bleeped this up.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. We had the opportunity to get an early copy of the new book the Family Dynamic by Susan Dominus. And it's coming out May 6th. And we just had a conversation with her and we did talk a lot about Stu do over. She has some stuff she wishes she could do over. I wish I had just been there's. I mean, Lola's 18 and I feel like I'm still gonna be her parent, but I feel like I have such a short time to be. To be on the record that all I'm doing is like giving as much life advice as I can. And she doesn't really want to hear.

[Penn Holderness]

It from me, nor me, because she's 18. And children, most of them want to show their parents maybe one of the most important things they can show them is that they can do this by themselves. Since they started riding a bike and said, look, mom, I'm doing this all by myself, I don't think that's gonna change. I found myself in my 20s and in some ways in my 30s, trying to show my parents that so I don't think you're done yet, kiddo.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, let's get to this conversation. Susan Dominus has worked for the New York Times since 2007 and teaches journalism at Yale University University. She's a Pulitzer Prize recipient as well as Newswomen's Club of New York Front Page Award and Heart of New York Award from the National Press Club.

[Penn Holderness]

Her article about menopause in the New York Times Magazine, which I think Kim believes she has read a couple years ago, also won a National Magazine Award in 2024. Her book the Family Dynamic is available for pre sale and will be released on May 6th. It's already been called a must read by best selling author Adam Grant and a captivating book on how our early.

[Susan Dominus]

Roots shape our later success.

[Penn Holderness]

Welcome Susan.

[Kim Holderness]

Welcome to the show. Susan dominus, we're excited to have you here.

[Susan Dominus]

I am so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

[Kim Holderness]

I am obsessed, bizarrely obsessed with birth order, sibling dynamics, family dynamics, how they work. And you were too. You were interested enough in exceptional families that you wanted to read a book, but they didn't exist, so you wrote it. So tell us more about why you were so fascinated in family dynamics.

[Susan Dominus]

You know, when I was young, my parents used to go away a lot and sometimes for like a week at a time and I would stay in someone else's house. And when you live with another family for a week and they're basically like in your neighborhood that don't seem that different and then you're in their house, you really start to realize how different every family culture is. So for example, one of the families I stayed with was, you know, dinner time for them was very much about like math games and talking about current events. And I was like, what is this very dinner table. Yeah. And so I became what I like think of as a kind of a family ologist. And then just as a kid, I was very curious about those differences. And I also went to summer camp with the children of several siblings. Like there were cousins, you know, and their uncles and aunts were really extraordinary people. One was a very famous playwright, Wendy Wasserstein. Her kids didn't go there, but her nieces did. And the there was a brother who is an incredibly successful legendary financier and another, another sister. I remember hearing that she had helped found mtv, which was like so cool at the time. So cool. And so I remember thinking, okay, what was going on at the dinner table in that household? Like, how did those siblings come out of one family? So it's like very close to home. And then, what can I say? When I had kids of my own, I started to think about it a little, you know, even a little bit more. So that's where it began.

[Penn Holderness]

And in this book, I think, honestly, summer camp is such an interesting way to start. Right. A lot of times those are people. They may come from different socioeconomic backgrounds from you. You may have something in common with those people. But you made it a point during the book to find all different types of exceptional people.

[Susan Dominus]

I really did, actually. I was really trying to. I wasn't that interested in families of high achieving kids who all came from really upper middle class or wealthy families. Because I feel like that's a little bit like you get on this conveyor belt, you know, it's a factor. Continue on.

[Penn Holderness]

And you're given so many advantages as well.

[Susan Dominus]

Yes, exactly. So I was, you know, I was really interested in families where it wasn't a given that all those kids were gonna do something really extraordinary or leave their mark. I was also interested in families in which the siblings did really different things. You know, it wasn't like, oh, we're incredibly musical, so we're all gonna, you know, raise children, you know, that kind of thing. We're all gorgeous. We're gonna be models. So, yeah, so that was what I set out to pursue. And, you know, there are families from different, like, periods in time in this book. And yeah, there's a range. There's definitely a range.

[Kim Holderness]

So I guess we should back up. What is your definition then of exceptional? Like, as you were going through, filtering through families and trying to find families to talk to you, what was your, you know, how did you judge that?

[Susan Dominus]

I'm really glad that you asked that question. And I confess that I would say that the families I write about are somewhat idiosyncratic in that they are specific to my values and my taste. And so I was interested in people who dreamed big. That was what I was interested in. People who were. I'm gonna write an incredible novel. I'm going to be a civil rights figure. I'm going to be a jurist. I'm going to be an Olympic athlete. And I. I believe that I can do that. So people who are defying odds, people who are overcoming odds, people who were making great art, those are. Or starting, you know, being part of something totally novel and new. Those were the kinds of things I was looking for. Money, not so much.

[Kim Holderness]

Right.

[Susan Dominus]

Innovation, leadership, vision. Those were things that excite me personally.

[Kim Holderness]

The stories were fascinating, and I am obsessed with Things like this. But just like books from my friend, doctor, our friend together, Dr. Lisa Damore. I sometimes get scared to read them because now my kids are 15 and 18, my daughter's about to leave for college. I feel like, well, it's too late. I can't. They're cooked, they're done. I don't know if we fostered ambition, like, I don't know if we did so much. But you actually even wrote, you were questioning yourself. Were we exposed them to enough, encouraging them enough, enriching them enough like all this stuff? I mean, is it too late for.

[Susan Dominus]

But by the way, I myself had that feeling. I mean, there was. My husband was reading the manuscript at one point. It's a moment when a mother in the book is like allowing her child to do something with the dog and not overseeing it too closely and letting her figure it out on her own. And he just wrote, oh, honey, it's too late for us. It's never too late. I mean, I think so much of what parenting is in terms of allowing your. I think so much of the messaging, you know, which is never too late. Your 18 year old's going to graduate from college and say, either I want to try to do this big scary thing, or do you think I should, you know, go straight to law school? By the way, a lot of these families went to law school. Nothing wrong with law school. But are you going to say, honey, you're 22, anything's possible, or are you going to say, I'm a little worried? You know, I think those, like, there's so many inflection points when I think parents can encourage their kids to, you know, with it, you got to your kid and be realistic about it. But I do think there's a lot of opportunities to just let your kid know you believe in them and that they shouldn't count them, you know, cut themselves short.

[Penn Holderness]

So we're not at the finish line yet.

[Kim Holderness]

We have more time, they have more time to cook.

[Penn Holderness]

All right, So I hate asking authors this, and as an author I've been asked this, and I understand why, but you've written a 300 something page, incredibly thoughtful book that you spent years putting together. And now I'm going to ask you to just boil it down as simple as possible and tell us, and, you know, what is the secret sauce? What is, I mean, you use this term to describe your siblings. What is the secret weapon among all of these families that resulted in this sort of exceptionality?

[Susan Dominus]

At the risk of repeating myself, I would say that it really was a sense of possibility in the family. It was, you know, it's not as if there were certain, like, homework rules. I was interested in those kinds of rules. Like families who had their kids. You know, you have to take out one fiction book and one nonfiction book every week, you know, that kind of thing. But honestly, I really think it was a sense of all things possible. Like, a lot of these families had mottos just, like, to that effect. Oh, wow. Yeah. Like, you know, the Holifield family. Unspoken was all things possible. And the mergia's. The mother would say, with God's help, all things possible. Or the. Or the father would say, the sun shines down on all of us. Meaning, you know, we may not be the most advantaged family. We may not, you know, we may be marginalized as a race when they were Latino, but, like, sun's coming down for everybody, you know, so those kinds of messages, I think are important. Hope. I think that.

[Penn Holderness]

Hope, yeah.

[Susan Dominus]

Hope and optimism. Yeah, I think that is. I think that is a huge part of it. I really do.

[Kim Holderness]

To my relief, you know, parents aren't the only influences in how a kid turns out, right? Siblings, the village, as you were just talking about other adults that they were, they played a crucial role. But let's talk about this sibling dynamic. As parents, how do you think we should best. Based on the stories you saw, you followed these six famil. How. How should we be supporting or laying a groundwork for a positive sibling relationship? Or should we just be stepping out and letting it happen?

[Susan Dominus]

It's really interesting because I have to say, by the time I finished this book, I did believe that the amount of social engineering that parents think they can do is sometimes unrealistic. You know, a lot of the things, you know, and sometimes I spoke to more than one family in which the siblings were incredibly close and really pulled each other along, in part because their parents were working so hard that they couldn't fill that role. You know, and so that's not something that any parent would wish for. It just was sort of an outcome of that situation. I do think having a sense of responsive, you know, in inculcating a sense of responsibility for one siblings that is, you know, sort of reasonable. I mean, Bishop Holifield was the older brother of Marilyn Holifield. She was a. She went. She desegregated a high school in Tallahassee. She was a prominent. She's the first black female law partner at a major law firm. And, you know, the one time he told me he really got in Trouble from his dad was when he came home from school without Marilyn, when he was supposed to bring her home. And that left a really strong impression on him. So I think if you can foster the sense of responsibility. And he looked out for Marilyn in subtle, behind the scenes ways her whole life. You know, he really encouraged her to go to Harvard Law School at a time when I think it wasn't necessarily like a given that a young black woman would see her, see herself there. So he championed her. And years later, even when she was, you know, a much older woman and was, you know, running for the board of trustees at Harvard, he was lobbying like hell for her. You know, in his 70s, he was sending emails around. So I find those kinds of stories very touching.

[Penn Holderness]

You said inculcating. I do the New York Times crossroad every day and I have a pretty good solve rate and I've never heard that word before. So I. And as a New York Times writer, could you please tell me what inculcating means? And then I've got a follow up.

[Susan Dominus]

I'm gonna say seeding. S, E E D I, N G. Like, you know, helping foster and grow.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, inculcated.

[Susan Dominus]

But I can say it a different way. I don't know why I use that. It is a fun word to say.

[Kim Holderness]

I have to say we are all about.

[Penn Holderness]

I want to learn. Yeah, I want to learn it. We're not lumen here.

[Kim Holderness]

No.

[Penn Holderness]

If you watch Severance, we don't, we don't. We don't say you have to use monosyllabic words.

[Susan Dominus]

You have a nice growth mindset.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes.

More on this after these words.

[Susan Dominus]

Are you looking for a new podcast for your kids? Maybe something to hold their attention on car trips?

[Kim Holderness]

We know there are a lot of kids podcasts out there, but we found something we think you're gonna love.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. While most of those podcasts are made and hosted by adults, we found one.

[Susan Dominus]

That'S four kids made by kids and hosted by kids.

[Kim Holderness]

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[Susan Dominus]

Wild Interest. It is super well produced with original music, great sound design, and a whole audio mission designed to calm and regulate kids.

[Kim Holderness]

You know, we talk a lot about ADHD in our podcast and one really important thing you can do to thrive with ADHD is regulate your nervous system.

[Penn Holderness]

Absolutely. When people get dysregulated, even people without ADHD actually can.

[Susan Dominus]

It can snowball and make regular life, well, difficult. Well, Wild Interest is actually designed to help regulate kids nervous systems.

[Penn Holderness]

There's calm music and thoughtful subject matters.

[Susan Dominus]

And the vocal tone and cadence are.

[Penn Holderness]

All made with the same result in.

[Susan Dominus]

Calm and happy kids.

[Kim Holderness]

Parents. Try the Wild Interest podcast. You'll be hooked. And it's in its second season, so there's tons of episodes to enjoy.

[Susan Dominus]

Wild Interest Follow wherever you get your podcast.

[Kim Holderness]

Hey Penn. Yeah, you know I love a good spring refresh. Deep cleaning the house, putting winter clothes away and getting prepped for the warmer days ahead.

[Penn Holderness]

No, I remember just this weekend carrying all the bulky jackets up to storage.

[Kim Holderness]

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[Susan Dominus]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Susan Dominus]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Susan Dominus]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Susan Dominus]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

One thing I read that I had to ask about, just because it's an interesting finding and, and I guess I'd never heard this before, that the older siblings are more likely to be academically driven and that the younger siblings are more athletically driven. And I'm super curious about that one.

[Susan Dominus]

Yeah. Or at least that their kind of younger siblings are overrepresented among elite athletes.

[Kim Holderness]

Right. They're more likely to become. Yes, statistically.

[Penn Holderness]

I was actually trying to be nice and say they're more driven. You're saying that they're better athletes.

[Susan Dominus]

I'm not even saying they're better athletes at all. They're more likely, yeah. So there's all sorts of theories about why the oldest sibling tends to be the most academic. Actually, our good friend Adam Grant likes to talk about how there's this, you know, there's one theory which is that the older child actually teaches the younger children and that in teaching you yourself become kind of more, you know, engaged academically. Maybe other people think it's that the oldest child has more time alone with the parents. Other people think like, oh, if the parents pressure the first kid to be academic and the trickle down effect effects to the younger siblings, it's very efficient. Like, don't start pressuring your kids with the fourth one. Like, start with the first one, set the precedent. And then as for the younger stu, the younger siblings being more, you know, highly represented in elite sports, I think there's a lot of things that can explain it. So let's say you think I want my kid to be a soccer star and I'm going to bring him to the developmental league at age five. Right. You think you're getting on it early, but that five year old has a three year old sibling and there he's kicking that ball with that three year old. So I think the younger siblings, siblings get started earlier. They want to, you know, catch up to the older sibling. The parents know how to navigate the, this, the world of sports. And by the way, if that older kid is more academic, maybe the younger kid is like, all right, this is my niche. Like that's, that's his niche. This is my niche or her niche. So I think there's something I don't know if you see that in your own family.

[Kim Holderness]

I do.

[Penn Holderness]

It's all about also like the best way to get good at sports is to get your ass kicked over and over again. And so like for, you know, and without even realizing it, he is inculcating that skill in his, in his younger sibling. So. Yeah, that's good.

[Kim Holderness]

That's all he's gonna say tonight, by the way.

[Penn Holderness]

That's all.

[Kim Holderness]

I, I feel like we have very traditional family dynamic in terms of our children. We have two children. We have an oldest daughter who, if you just looked up oldest daughter and type A plays the part, just, it leans into the part where I'm like, okay, let's, let's unwind a little bit, let's relax. Like, I worry a little bit because she's so oldest daughter and younger son, very much more carefree, the whole thing. But the older sibling, as you were talking, you were telling the story about the Holyfields. It seems like a lot of pressure on the older sibling. Are we putting too much pressure on our oldest kids?

[Susan Dominus]

I think we're putting too much pressure on all of our kids, to be honest. I live outside of New York City and I see it. And by the way, the kids put a lot of pressure. Sometimes I think that parents get a bad rapid gap because the kids put a lot of pressure on themselves, you know, in these high achieving communities. And, but as for the old. Right. So that's why I said, when I talked about, you know, having the older child have moderate sense of responsibility, a measured sense of responsibility. I think it's, you have to know your own kid. That is a message that comes out in all of the research in this book. Know your kids so that you can know what expectations are reasonable. You want to have expectations, but you don't want them to be so high that they're counterproductive and tough, toxic.

[Kim Holderness]

You, you did a lot. You talked about a whole chapter and more about expectations and, and the work and the study around this. What did you find about how those expectations can influence a kid's, you know, being, you know, exceptional, successful? Because my instinct is we, we always don't, we don't talk about our dinner table. We have a lot of fun. There's zero enrichment happening because I feel like they're, they're under such pressure right now already. So, so we, I think, have almost opted out of setting specific expectations. So what have you learned?

[Susan Dominus]

I mean, I, I think that's a great way to go, to be honest, because I think there's this idea that if we just like, we all know that if you set the expectations too high and actually there's research now, very good research, suggesting that if you do set the expectations too high that you are, it's going to be counterproductive and it's going to hurt your relationship and it's going to have your child's anxiety skyrocket. So, so there's this idea that like, if we could just get it right, then maybe it'll be okay, but like, you don't know that you're gon it. Right. And there is enough pressure on so many kids right now. I think kids internalize your expectations. They see it in your facial expressions. They, you know, they, they can read you like a book. I don't think parents need to really lay it on more thickly. I think about things like drug use and, you know, values. I think expect, you know, expectations are totally reasonable. You know, do I expect you to show up at the game if you told your coach you'd be there and they're gonna have to forfeit if you don't?

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Susan Dominus]

I expect you to be there to expect you to, to score a goal and come home with a win. No, that's not, that's not cool.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

You have two college age twins, is that correct?

[Susan Dominus]

Correct.

[Penn Holderness]

I mean, that's just. That's a science experiment itself. That's fantastic. There's no one. That's not surprising that this is something you're interested in. Congratulations on getting them to college.

[Susan Dominus]

And I would like to tell you a funny story about my twins.

[Penn Holderness]

Please do. Please do.

[Susan Dominus]

Lest you think that parents really affect their children's personalities, let me tell you the story of my children. One of my sons was just elected social chair of his fraternity at the University of Wisconsin.

[Penn Holderness]

Let's go.

[Kim Holderness]

Good. That's a good large. Having a lot of fun?

[Penn Holderness]

Yep.

[Susan Dominus]

Had a lot of fun. The other one chose a school in Santa Fe, New Mexico of 400 people. It's called St. John's College and it's a great book school where they literally sit around and read Aristotle and talk about the great books for four years.

[Kim Holderness]

And they are twins.

[Susan Dominus]

They are fraternal twins. I tell you that. I read them the same books every night. You know, at bedtime I fed them the same food. I'm pretty sure we had the same rewards chart on the, you know, on the fridge. And, and I, and they, and they watched my husband and me model the things that we model, you know, for better or for worse. And obviously I, I do like to think they both have good values and that we, you know, helped inculcate that. But I also do think that they, they were going to be who they were going to be almost from, from, from the get go.

[Penn Holderness]

Well, we come out a certain way, don't we, as, as human beings. Like every child begins having a unique personality on day one, it has seemed to us. But I am curious after this work that you've done and your, your children seem to be like, I, I think I feel similarly to my kids. Like, we still got work to do, but the tough stuff is over. Like they've, they've made it to college. Anything that you found that made you wanted to hop into a time machine and, and try something differently or did, was this more affirming? Yeah, go ahead.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Susan Dominus]

Yeah. I'm glad you asked. Some of the most compelling research I came across was research that find that parents jump into quickly about everything from how kids put on their clothing to whether they can, you know, make themselves lunch. And I think if I'm honest, partly being a mom who worked, there were certain things I really wanted to do for my kids. Like I really wanted to make them dinner and I really wanted. And also I wasn't like in a. At a certain point I couldn't play soccer with them anymore, but I could feed them, you know, or, or if one of them was a panic because they couldn't find their favorite magic card, you know what I'm talking about? I felt like, oh, we have to calm everything down and find the magic card. I do think that they were capable probably of more at a young age than I let them explore. And if I could do anything over again, it would be that for sure.

[Kim Holderness]

I have the same answer and it's aww, yeah. Because same. I. They have seen us work hard. And in fact, you wrote in there about how when babies see their parents work hard, they work harder. And I found that fascinating. So they've seen us work hard, but because we work so hard, I want to, I want to make them, I make them breakfast still.

[Susan Dominus]

And I did every morning. Every morning.

[Kim Holderness]

And I pack snacks and water bottles and when they're going to practice, like I'm getting their stuff together and what has happened. My daughter, just being who she is, she is very, she's taught herself these things and she's very capable. My son, through no fault of his own, like the only meals he can make, he can use the air fryer to make chicken nuggets and he can make himself Mac and Cheese. And, like, that's kind of it. And that's.

[Susan Dominus]

He and my son would get along great. Yeah, Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

I mean, but the one from Wisconsin, I'm guessing.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, correct, correct. But it is. I, I don't. I've done him no favors.

[Penn Holderness]

Let me. I'm just gonna jump in quickly for both of you women and just give yourselves a pat on the back here really quickly like this. What you're describing is love. So, like, it's. You guys are the kind of people in a job interview when they ask what your biggest weakness is, and it's.

[Kim Holderness]

Like, I care too much.

[Penn Holderness]

That's you, too. That's you, too, right there. That's you, too. No, this is, like. It's an interesting answer, and I guess it makes sense, but, but you guys are just being.

[Kim Holderness]

But it's true. There were all these examples in her book of these children and, you know, watching their grandchildren, like, trying things and doing things and watching them struggle a little bit, and I'm like, ooh, I don't do that.

[Susan Dominus]

I didn't do that so much. I mean, I will say that. Pen. There's a moment in the book where I think I talk about how Jeanine Groff would put her kid if I didn't. I wish I had. She would put her grandchildren's plastic. Plastic cups and plates kind of on the, on the bottom cabinet so that if they wanted to get their plate in their cup, they could write Genius. And, you know, I think that is an act of love, in a way. It's thoughtful and it's caring, but it's also fostering the kind of independence that I think kids really love. So I, I, I, I do. Right? Do I have any regrets? In a way? No. Like, I felt like those were my acts of love, and they totally received them that way. And it's very concrete, and I think they'll have a lot of, I hope, fond memories of that kind of thing. I do think that I wish I had just let them, like, struggle with, like, the Velcro on the backpack a little bit more, you know, that maybe there's. That maybe there's a happy balance, you know, that kind of thing.

[Kim Holderness]

I don't want to give all these stories away because it is such a fascinating book, and I tore through it this weekend. But is there something that surprised you? Was there something, you know, when you met these people? Was there part of the research or anything that surprised you?

[Susan Dominus]

I think that the big overall surprising. I went into this book thinking I was going to write a book about how parents raised high achieving kids. And to some degree, I was. I was throughout the book interested in, like, the rules and rights and rituals of these families, the family mottos. I was, in fact, surprised by how much the siblings did really help pull each other along and shape each other's lives. You know, what I felt was that the parents kind of would set a certain ambient sense of possibility. But then, you know, the siblings are of the same generation. They can turn to each other and say, like, you know, AI is the future in a way that maybe their parents can't. And I also think, and I write about this a little bit in the book, too, I think that young people can hear advice from siblings and receive it in a really more, much more open way than they might from their parents. So.

[Penn Holderness]

It'S really interesting you said that because they do not accept feedback from us in the same way they accept it from each other. And the way that my children have developed a relationship where they can talk to each other honestly and have the underpinnings of love there as well, I think has been one of the greatest joys of me as a parent, seeing it happen. And I don't think I had anything.

[Kim Holderness]

To do with it.

[Penn Holderness]

I don't think I had anything to do with that. I think that was just them figuring it out on their own.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, I. People act because our kids are very close and they ask and I have no. I have no answers. Because in honesty, my brother and I, he was. I had an older brother. I love him dearly now. We get. We get along, everything's great, but as children, it was chaos. I apologize to my mother. There was a lot of screaming. We fought all the time. So there's gonna be a lot of people listening to this whose siblings aren't super supportive. They totally ditch them at school and they don't feel bad about it, like, all those things. So any advice to the rest of the world?

[Susan Dominus]

I do think that, you know, often for people whose kids are, you know, fighting a lot as young children, I mean, this is just a parent speaking. I'm trying to think about how it related to the book. It does relate to the book, the Marquis. I wish I'd written about a little bit more. Did the Margaret fight like crazy on these incredibly long car rides when there were like seven of them stuffed into a car? Yes, they definitely did. When they got older, they were able to. Not just. They were able to help each other and really, like, guide each other and root for each other in a way they wouldn't Root really for anybody else except their, perhaps their spouses. I mean, there is this thing about family that when the chips are down, I think, you know, parents can often be surprised by how siblings support each other later on.

[Kim Holderness]

So this I al. I loved hearing how these siblings, long term into adulthood were supporting each other. So with the. Would the opposite be true then? If you had a sibling who was on the struggle bus making bad decisions, wouldn't it be true that they would be more. You would be more likely to make those same decisions?

[Susan Dominus]

Yes. I think that that is one of the reasons why there's a lot of pressure on oldest siblings because parents know that how that sibling goes, their younger siblings can go. And there's even really fascinating research about how when, when older siblings have the advantage of being old for their grade, you see the trickle down effect in their younger siblings, regardless of whether that younger sibling is old for the grade or not. Does that make sense?

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Susan Dominus]

In other words, the fact that the older child had some academic advantage filters down into better grades for the younger sibling, no matter when that student was born, like in the birth year.

[Kim Holderness]

It probably is a measure of confidence and all of that.

[Penn Holderness]

Did you look any into third children? Third children to me are fascinating. And I have one story for. Actually, you told me this story. Our son, he had like a tiny boo boo on his finger in preschool. And we were at, we were at the class and it was the smallest little cut and. But he knew because he was adorable, if he cried, he would get all of the attention from the entire class and the teacher, and the teacher was like slowly stroking his hair and giving him, kissing him, rocking him. Meanwhile, this girl in our class who was a third child, she had gotten about a pound of dirt in her eye. She walked in the door, lifted her eyelid, turned the faucet.

[Kim Holderness]

She was three.

[Penn Holderness]

She was three.

[Susan Dominus]

Oh my God.

[Penn Holderness]

And like got all of the water out and walked back out and Kim was like, that's a third child.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, that's a third child.

[Penn Holderness]

There is, there is this sort of toughness and fortitude about a third child that I don't think you can replicate. Yes. Are you one?

[Susan Dominus]

Are you a third?

[Penn Holderness]

Okay.

[Susan Dominus]

Yes, I am. I actually, I always tell people that the reason I speak so quickly is because if I wanted to be heard at the dinner table, I had like, precious little time to get out what I had to say. I wish I had done research on that. I haven't actually seen research on that. But what most research tends to find is that siblings may fill a Role within the family. Like, you may be super tough compared to your other siblings. I mean, I know what you're saying. You saw this. But that relative to the rest of the world, or not necessarily, that they may act a certain way within the family. And so they're perceived to be either the toughest if they're the youngest, or maybe to be the most responsible if they're the oldest. But then they get out into the world and they're not necessarily the most responsible. In a room full of other people.

[Kim Holderness]

We've tried to make home, you know, feel like a safe space. We're not doing a lot of. We just feel like our kids have put so much pressure on themselves. So did any of these families that you talked to, did it look like the kids needed at any time, time motivating? Because there's plenty of people listening. They're like, well, that's great, but my kids don't want to do any of that stuff.

[Susan Dominus]

Yeah, I mean, I'll say two things. You know, there's one study that I really loved which basically looked at, basically the study decided we're going to tell some parents how to connect the value, let's say, of a math class to kids and their own interests and see if parents, by connecting like, okay, you want to. You want to run a glamorous hair salon one day, you know, you're going to have to like, run the numbers, so you might as well take that one extra math class. When they found. And so the parents who received this, like, pamphlets and the websites that encouraged them to connect it, those parents, kids were much more likely to take those classes. And it didn't. It wasn't rocket science. It was about finding what the kid was interested in and connecting the value of whatever the parent was hoping the child would, would, you know, pursue to that child's own interest. So I think that really is about, you know, that does take us back to this idea of like, know your kid, know what's important to your kid and try to motivate your child, you know, by working with that. Whatever you might not, that might not be your dream for your child, but if that's your child's dream, that they want to run a hair salon or they want to, you know, even if they think that they're going to be a famous soccer star, which of course, you know, many, many children do you want to, you know, you could even say, like, well, one day you're going to have to manage your finances. You know, you got to really trust. You have to Trust your financial manager. You gotta like double check those books. Anything, any way to connect it. And so that is one way that parents have been successful motivating their kids. I would say you had a bit.

[Penn Holderness]

About trauma, even generational trauma and how that affects families. You could even probably loop disappointment into this. But. Or setbacks or any of this stuff. Like talk about how that played in the histories of these families.

[Susan Dominus]

You know, what I would say is that it's not that the kids were aware of intergenerational trauma. I think in those families, the way they understood their family story was that their parents were tremendous overcomers. That they had done extraordinary things, they had suffered, they had been through trials, but that they then had managed to succeed in spite of those things. So, you know, you may have a parent like the Holifields parent. They weren't necessarily making history, but they had. The Holield's father had basically gotten himself to tuskegee as a 12 or 13 year old by himself and taken many years to finish college and then gone on to become a really successful real estate developer coming out of the Jim Crow South. So he was a man of great. He'd overcome a lot, basically. Or even I run the story of the. The three Bronte sisters throughout the book. You know, their father, Patrick Bronte was, you know, basically an Irish peasant who's, you know, it's not even clear whether his parents knew how to read. But he was so in love with learning and so in love with books that he was mentored all the way to Cambridge. I mean, he was a tremendous overcomer. So I think that's something that, that young people see and they can't help. But it's not just that they're inspired by it or they feel like they owe it to their parents. I think they, okay, maybe the limits that other people might have internalized that they don't apply to this family. And they're very positive stories and they're very filled with pride.

[Penn Holderness]

And I imagine that works better than our. Like when I was your age, I had to walk through the snow uphill both ways.

[Kim Holderness]

Making it a lecture.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, like lecture thing. It's more of an awareness.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Susan Dominus]

I think it's the casting of the story. But what were you gonna say?

[Kim Holderness]

No, no, I just took much away from the book and I again, don't wanna tell all the stories because it's a great. It's a great read and. But one of the things I took away is there was a way to model it. And you said earlier I mean, they know our expectations. They can see our expectations. But, you know, we don't want kids that are zombies on their phones. So we should be putting our phones down. We should be. I read at night and mostly in bed, but maybe I should be reading out in the living room, like, doing. Like, they. They do see these things.

[Susan Dominus]

And by the way, not. Not just reading, but reading a book, because I think one of the ways that, like, an entire raft of modeling behavior is no longer visible or transparent to our children because it all happens on our phones. So, I mean, I always talk about how when I was growing up, I would see my mom balancing the checkbook like it was all spread out on the table. Not that I balanced my checkbook, but even if I did, it would be on my phone. And so, you know, or. Or reading great literature or, you know, my kids would hear me on the phone. I just hear my mother on the phone, like, laughing with her friend or supporting her through a hard time. If you're texting with your friend, your kid's not seeing that. It is really. You do have to make a conscious effort, I think, to get off of the phones and do so much of your life in real life as much as you can.

[Kim Holderness]

To the point where I have started saying, I am doing this. I'll, like, say why I'm on my phone so that they know, but I don't think that's very helpful either. I just need to it. Get the phone down, get an actual book, sit my ass in the living room so they can actually see it and model it.

[Susan Dominus]

Yeah. Or even just volunteering. I mean, I think that's something kids know when. When you're civically engaged, they. They get that that's just like something you do, that. That's something that you model, and that is something that's very visible. And again, it's. In some ways, it's easier to model values than it is to model achievement, obviously. And it's probably something that's more important to most parents anyway. I think I really admired a woman named Taruka Paulus, whose daughter became Diane Paulus, this legendary theater director and innovator. And Diane talks about how her mother was incredibly present for all of her ballet performances and her piano recitals, but that she had this way of being there and watching, as she put it, without desire. Her mother's hunger was for her to perform and achieve. That was never apparent to her. She just felt like her mother was there to support her, but she didn't feel judged. She didn't Feel critiqued. And I do feel like, you know, I, I don't. You know, Lisa D'Amore always says you never want to be more invested in anything happening in your kid's life than that kid is himself or herself. And I feel like it's a lot of parents struggle on the sidelines of the, you know, the soccer game or at the, the tennis match. I think if anything I would want to sort of work on just, you know, being more, more Zen, being more, you know, more meditation. I think a meditation practice is probably. I think there should be a book about like Zen and the art of parenting.

[Kim Holderness]

Right.

[Susan Dominus]

Like that's the next book that maybe I would be interested in writing.

[Kim Holderness]

I think you hit on something that could be an entire book. When we have talked about it here, just the intensity of parents specifically watching your kid perform or at a sporting event. It's hard.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. You could, instead of doing six exceptional families, you could do six overbearing sports or just one.

[Kim Holderness]

Or like this, this guy, when watching our daughter play tennis, couldn't sit down. And I relate. Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

I didn't yell, I didn't say, like I was incredibly supportive, but I could not sit. I could not sit.

[Kim Holderness]

I mean, and you gotta. And sometimes I would leave because I'm like, I think she can feel how nervous I am. And you couldn't look. I couldn't even look sometimes.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. You were like, tell me what's going on.

[Kim Holderness]

And like they're in a tie break for the state championship. So tell me. You just tell me. Yeah. So I feel like I. This is something I flunked at. Totally.

[Susan Dominus]

Yeah. So I, I think if I could under. So I do think one of the things I really loved learning in this book was that a lot of the parents, they were not overly invested. They didn't coach the coach. They didn't come. They didn't. They came to the game, but they didn't watch practice. Like, you know, they. There was a lot of healthy distance there. And I think that there daughters, an entire generation of parents who've lost the art of being. I mean parents in the 70s were just naturally Zen parents. Right. It was benign neglect. Like there were really healthy boundaries there. And I do think that, that if, you know, it was, it was a major takeaway from, for me for this book is that I thought I was going to be writing a book about parents who were overly invested and over watchful but with great results, you know, of their kids performances. And I just really didn't see that. At least not in the Families that I was interested in writing about. Maybe it just reflects my biases, but these were parents who encouraged their kids, put opportunity in front of them, let them know that they were supported, but then kind of left them alone.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. Don't you. This is what I'm curious about, because I think just by nature of what parenting was in the 70s and 80s, you know, my mom was a piano teacher after school, so she was working. My dad was working, working. We were on our own, but it was fine. Yeah. So we, yeah. And it was, it was great. But I think I wanted to be a little more around. Like, I think, I think I want to, I don't want to say because my mom and dad did a great job, but I, but I think I wanted to be more involved. Like, I wanted to show up at things and they couldn't because they were, they were working. So don't, I mean, generationally, I think we've, like, we've, we all showed up too much. Like, I think we've screwed, like, we've like, overcorrected for this generation.

[Susan Dominus]

You know, I, I, I do. Somebody once said to me, you should at least miss one game a season. You know, like, that's a healthy practice. And yeah, I think there, it's, it's, it's. There was probably an overcorrection for our generation, and I'll be curious to see if the next one, you know, goes back the other way. But I do feel like kids, kids do benefit from having space and from knowing that they're going to be okay even if you're not there and, and running for the goal and not looking over to you to see if you saw that they got the goal. You know, they've gotta be doing these things for themselves. We all know that intrinsic motivation is so much more powerful than external motivation.

[Penn Holderness]

They definitely don't look at me.

[Kim Holderness]

I do. I will say, though, I do miss enough games because they're just, there's so many of them.

[Penn Holderness]

I don't miss too many.

[Kim Holderness]

He's at everything.

He's at.

[Penn Holderness]

See, I just think the most important thing you can do as a parent is show up. And that's metaphorically and literally. I hear you about missing one game, but I think just showing up when you can, there's still some value to that.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Susan Dominus]

Yeah. I mean, that's clearly the choices that we also made. And, you know, it's people. You know, this book took me a really long time to write, and I sometimes felt bad about it. And then I came to the realization that it is partly because I didn't really miss a whole lot of games if I wasn't out of town. And that's a huge consolation to me, you know, and also, also writing the book over many years, I really got to see how people's lives folded at, you know, unrolled, and there were ups and there were downs. You know, you asked what my. My measure of success is like. It's, you know, it's. It's a complicated answer. But certainly success can be a moment in time, too, right?

[Kim Holderness]

Or just even seeing how dealing at the, you know, at the Olympics and one of the siblings, you know, having. I don't want to spoil things, but just how the family supported and stuff, that was just very inspiring to see.

[Susan Dominus]

Yeah. I mean, I definitely found the most inspiring story is not to be about success, but about the way the families rallied around each other. Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

Well, the family dynamic comes out on May 6, but you've got some work to do before then because you got to. You got to pre order this, pre order the, pre ordering the book. Let me explain y'all something to you guys real quick, okay? If you order the book willy nilly, sometime in. In June or July, it's fine. She's gonna love you. She's gonna be thrilled. If you order it before May 6, that goes toward the total sales numbers the first week of May 6th, and gives you a really good chance to get on some very important lists.

[Susan Dominus]

So kind of you. I mean, I do hope that this book takes some of the pressure off of parents to feel like that there is some magic formula and that there is some special sauce. I think that obviously, you know, I do think that, like, as I said, the sense of optimism and giving your kids opportunity and knowing your child, there are some things that you can really try to do, you know, encourage them without breaking them. But, you know, I do hope it takes some of the pressure off of parents and. And because I. I know too many parents who do feel like that if their child has not landed some brass ring, that they. They did something wrong, and that's just not the case.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. And I'm sure it will help a lot of people. But. But. But do it before Macy's.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. You're very prolific, prolific writer. Where can people find you? And we'll put the link in the show notes to pre order and where can people find you?

[Susan Dominus]

Well, I'm Sue Dominus on Instagram. I have. I publish frequently at the New York Times, and I'm at Susan Dominus on Blue Sky. And that's pretty much. And I'm still. I'm old enough to really love Facebook. What can I tell you?

[Penn Holderness]

Susan, let's go.

[Kim Holderness]

So you're the one.

[Penn Holderness]

You're the one.

[Kim Holderness]

You're the one. I've loved getting to talk to you. This has been so much fun. Good luck with the book. It was. It was really. And obviously you're a brilliant writer, so it was. It was a really. It was a joy to read. So thank you very much. I loved that, and I hope it was helpful. And I agree. Like, I need to cut myself some slack that everything I wish I could redo. Yeah, I did. Out of love.

[Susan Dominus]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

It was so funny when you guys were realizing that you were doing too many things for your kids. I just wanted to make sure, you.

[Kim Holderness]

Know, it was out of love.

[Penn Holderness]

That it's out of love.

[Kim Holderness]

I mean, neglect, I think they'll arrest you for. So we were doing too much.

[Penn Holderness]

So I have not seen anyone be arrested for over protection. That would be a fun little. That might be a fun movie or something. Yeah. Or. Yeah, helicoptering.

[Kim Holderness]

Anyway, so we always have a top five list in a. In a podcast. Penn, did you come up with the top five for this one?

[Penn Holderness]

Yep. Top five things I hope my kids are exceptional at. At.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh, okay. I can't wait.

[Penn Holderness]

You ready? Okay. Number five, college.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. Say more.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. Thank you for asking me to say more. I was exceptional at college.

[Kim Holderness]

Weren't you on academic probation?

[Penn Holderness]

Yes. But how do you measure exceptionalness in college? Do you measure it by the gpa? Because I think I measure it by based on, like, look at yourself 20 years later, and what role has college had on your life? Okay, so my academic probation caused me to have to take an internship at the local TV station and work at the Macaroni Grill for six months to get my first job. Real job. Sorry. My friends that I made in college, they are still close friends to this day. I am godparents to some of their children. They are my favorite people on the planet. I learned a ton of social skills that I had not developed in high school. I joined a band. I was in an acapella group. I did a tremendous amount of creative writing, and it led to my. My current occupation, which I would deem somewhat successful.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes.

[Penn Holderness]

And all of that came from college?

[Kim Holderness]

Yes.

[Penn Holderness]

Did I go to class? Not as much as most people, but I don't want my kids to be that kind of excel. Actually, I don't care if they are. I want college to serve as a stepping stool to this them, to the next stage in their life. And I think all you have to do is that to be exceptional. That could mean getting like a 3.5Gpa.

[Kim Holderness]

Which is really hard in college, by.

[Penn Holderness]

The way, like finding a fraternity or a sorority that you love, finding an activity, finding what it is that you want to do for the rest of your life.

[Susan Dominus]

You know what I mean?

[Penn Holderness]

So I just hope that they're exceptional in college, and I don't think that necessarily is your gpa.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. Okay. Number four.

[Penn Holderness]

Number four, I hope they're exceptional at saving and investing money, because I don't think I am. Am no exceptional. And someone in this family needs to figure that out. It's not that I'm not trying.

[Kim Holderness]

No, we are. We. And we have. We. We're doing okay. We're. We're doing fine. We're doing fine.

[Penn Holderness]

That seems like an important thing.

[Kim Holderness]

I wish. I wish we had somebody that, like, watched it and was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. You said business words like Dow Jones.

[Penn Holderness]

And I hope they're good at it, because that's nasdaq. That's like one of those simple things that shows a little bit of willpower and patience and could potentially set you up for a long time. Love it. Number three, I hope they're exceptional at flying jet packs because that's how they're going to get around in, like, 10 years.

[Kim Holderness]

Everybody thinks it's 10, 20 years, but, you know, back to the future thought that they were going to be flying cars.

[Penn Holderness]

I know.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

We don't need roads where we're going.

[Kim Holderness]

We don't need roads.

[Penn Holderness]

Actually, Doc, we still need roads. And we're going backwards now.

[Kim Holderness]

We just have, like, cyber trucks that are just like, super ugly.

[Penn Holderness]

Flying jetpacks are next.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Penn Holderness]

Number two, I hope that they are good at love. I hope they're exceptional at love. Love is the most difficult, sometimes complicated thing. And if you can be exceptional at that, I think that the rest of these may not even matter as much. Right? Yeah, that might be the most important thing. But to me, I have a different number one for thing that I hope my kids are exceptional at.

[Kim Holderness]

Tell me number one.

[Penn Holderness]

Caring for the elderly.

[Kim Holderness]

Stop it.

[Penn Holderness]

I'm going to be elderly soon, and I'd like them to be exceptional at caring.

[Kim Holderness]

No, no, no, we don't have.

[Penn Holderness]

I hope I don't need much caring, but if. If butt wipe time comes around poopy pants, I hope they're exceptional at that.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Penn Holderness]

All right, so we're. We're gonna do a quick wrap because we've got some stuff that I can't tell you about that we have to go.

[Kim Holderness]

Top secret parent stuff we have to deal with. Okay. Okay. Love you guys. Bye. Bye.

[Penn Holderness]

That was the fastest ending ever.

[F]

If you're anything like us, you love attention. And my favorite way to get all eyes on me is with next level, shiny, glossy hair. Which is why we're so excited to.

[Susan Dominus]

Tell y'all about the new Lamellar gloss.

[F]

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[Penn Holderness]

Hey guys.

[G]

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