Wearing What You Want with Stacy London

Summary

Podcast Summary: Laugh Lines with Kim & Penn Holderness

Episode: Wearing What You Want with Stacy London
Date: August 19, 2025
Host(s): Kim & Penn Holderness
Guest: Stacy London

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Episode Overview

This lively and heartfelt episode of Laugh Lines dives into aging, identity, and style with the iconic Stacy London. Kim and Penn discuss how fashion and self-expression shift with age—particularly through perimenopause and the midlife era. Stacy London brings her signature humor, expertise, and candor to a conversation brimming with insight for Gen Xers, parents, and anyone who’s ever felt lost in a department store. The hosts and Stacy tackle cultural, generational, and personal shifts in style, all while emphasizing joy and self-acceptance.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Changing Relationship with Fashion as We Age

• Body shifts and confidence: Kim opens up about her evolving body and confusion about what to wear in midlife.
  • Kim: “Items have shifted during flight right now...I don’t know how much I care, but B, I will walk in the store and...I don’t know. What I don’t know.” (13:12)
• Fashion as self-care and joy: They reflect on how looking good can change how you feel, not for others’ approval but for self-esteem.
  • Kim: “I’m not dressing for you…I’m dressing to feel good about myself.” (06:39)
• Gen X and the Uniform Phenomenon:
  • Quarter-zip sweaters as the “Gen X dad thumbprint” and the yoga pants/athleisure trend for moms.

2. Stacy’s Perspective: Midlife, Menopause & Identity

• Rejecting ‘expiration dates’:
  • Stacy: “You don’t have an expiration date for being powerful, capable, hot, any of the things you want to be. It’s the values you held in your youth that have an expiration date.” (10:12)
• The evolution from ‘rules’ to individuality in fashion:
  • Stacy describes why she was reluctant to return to a makeover format and how her philosophy has shifted from giving rules (What Not to Wear era) to empowering self-expression and agency in her new show, “Wear Whatever the F You Want.”
  • Stacy: “We originated the rules and now we’ve got to show people how to break them.” (11:15)

3. Generational Differences & The Store Experience

• Gen X vs. Gen Z and Millennials:
  • Gen Xers and Boomers crave rules; younger people are more creative and body/gender-positive in fashion.
  • Stacy: “Our generation, Generation X, we’re all about rules…young generations are so much more open. Open. There’s so much more body positivity, so much more gender positivity...” (13:22)
• Store overwhelm is real: Even Stacy notes the confusion of in-store shopping with body and cultural shifts.

4. COVID-19’s Impact on Style and Comfort

• Permanent changes post-pandemic:
  • Athleisure, “pajamafication,” and the decline of high heels as style expectations relax.
  • Stacy: “I don’t think anybody wants to wear hard pants again…we have a very different perspective on our work life, our personal life, our priorities.” (20:59)
• Kim: “I loved shoes and I loved my heels. I don’t think I put on a pair of heels to go to a wedding. ...I am in sneakers all the time. I am in the baggy jeans.” (23:32)

5. Practical Midlife Style Tips from Stacy

• Building a wearable, joyful wardrobe:
  • Shop in outfits, not just one-off pieces.
  • Use a “grocery list” for missing basics in your closet to avoid mindless shopping.
  • Prioritize clothing that has “use, value, and joy.”
  • Don’t fear tailoring—alter pieces so they fit and flatter.
  • Stacy: “My two criteria for wearing anything are use, value and joy...and then I also recommend shopping in outfits instead of just a one-off piece because a lot of times we come back and we think we found something brilliant and we can’t figure out what to wear with it.” (25:44)
• On breaking out of color ruts:
  • Kim admits to buying endless black and white—Stacy suggests editing down and being intentional about branching out.
  • Stacy: “It’s about stretching yourself in your closet and figuring out what you can get rid of, because if you have that many of the same thing, you are not wearing all of them.” (43:53)
• Donate or swap excess clothes instead of throwing them away.

6. Fashion & Gender—The Male Perspective

• Penn’s “uniform” and male insecurity:
  • Men tend to buy multiples of what works and are hesitant to try new styles/colors.
  • Stacy notes straight men (especially Gen X and up) often hide their investment in appearance.
  • Stacy: “We all care about the way that we look. Men, women, whatever gender you are…because that’s how we get accepted. That’s just sociobiology.” (32:32)
• Encouragement to experiment:
  • Stacy: “If you want to do something different, then the first place I would start with a man is color.” (33:48)

7. Is “Age Appropriate” Fashion a Thing?

• Stacy’s take:
  • Not really—dress so you feel powerful and happy, not to appease others or age standards.
  • Give (and graciously receive) compliments; kindness is powerful.

8. The Inside Story: Body Image in Fashion Media

• Stacy opens up about her time at Vogue:
  • She felt out of place and responded by being the “class clown” and working thrice as hard.
  • Stacy: “The fashion industry is built on insecurity. It doesn’t run on money. It runs on insecurity...what if we came at fashion from the opposite perspective? See, fashion is an industry, but style is for the individual.” (49:15)
• Empathy and kindness to self:
  • Stacy: “If I can do that, then I can walk through the world with a certain amount of self assurance. Doesn’t mean I don’t have insecurities, but I’m not going to let insecurity run my life.” (51:04)

9. Social Media & Self Esteem

• Guardrails and compassion:
  • The unintended negative consequences of social media are discussed. Confidence, not consumerism, should be fostered.
  • Stacy: “…a lot of the outcomes of social media were possible, but we didn’t think they were probable…all the other things (isolation, comparison, envy) have not been great…Any great stylist will never impose their style on you. They will find the style that lives in you.” (51:14)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Stacy on midlife power:
  • “It’s not that you have an expiration date…It’s the values that you held in your youth that have an expiration date.” (10:12)
• Stacy on fashion rules:
  • “We originated the rules and now we’ve got to show people how to break them.” (11:15)
• Stacy on the power of clothing:
  • “It gives you the power to get people to think what you want them to think about you.” (38:06)
• On male fashion vulnerability:
  • Penn: “I believe that men are more vulnerable than they let on when it comes to fashion and aren’t really wanting to stem out on anything new.”
  • Stacy: “I agree with that…and certainly for our generation, there is some kind of weird…you don’t want anybody to know that you care. Right? But we all care.”
• On body image in the industry:
  • “I was knocked. I had gone through a college eating disorder…I got sick…And my way of dealing with that was by being the class clown, by working three times harder…The fashion industry is built on insecurity.” (48:08)
• Ode to Stacy (Penn’s Song):
  • “She used to be a makeover juggernaut. Now she says wear whatever the F you want.” (64:54)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro banter & trend talk: 02:55–08:03
• Stacy London joins the show: 08:35
• Role of menopause & midlife in fashion: 09:20–11:15
• Evolution from “What Not to Wear” to “Wear Whatever the F You Want”: 11:15
• How to shop at midlife, practical tips: 24:21–31:40
• Cluttered closets & color ruts: 43:21–45:21
• Body image, fashion magazines, and industry secrets: 47:43–51:04
• Compliments, confidence, and age-appropriateness: 46:18–47:43
• Social media and confidence: 51:14
• “Ode to Stacy” original song: 64:04–65:41

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Stacy’s Projects & Final Thoughts

• Wear Whatever the F You Want on Amazon Prime—a show about breaking fashion rules and embracing midlife style.
• QVC clothing line by Stacy London—designed for comfort and relevance, especially for the 40–60+ age group.
• Amazon storefront with Stacy’s personally curated favorite items.
• On thriving in middle age:
  • “I think that middle age…is really an amount of time where you go from a real reckoning to a renaissance. And… the most important thing is identity. ...There is a light at the end of the tunnel.” (59:00)

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Episode Tone & Takeaways

Uplifting, frank, and genuinely funny, this episode blends real talk about body image, aging, and cultural change with practical, actionable tips and plenty of comic relief. Stacy’s presence is empowering, and Kim and Penn bring warmth and vulnerability. If you’ve ever felt confused by changing trends, lost in your own closet, or unsure how to dress your ever-evolving self, this episode offers camaraderie, affirmation, and a healthy dose of “wear whatever the F you want.”

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For More

• Stacy London’s QVC Collection
• Wear Whatever the F You Want on Amazon Prime
• Stacy’s Amazon Storefront

Transcript

[Stacy London]

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[Kim Holderness]

Bombas makes the most comfortable socks, underwear and T shirts.

[Penn Holderness]

Warning, Bombas are so absurdly comfortable you may throw out all your other clothes.

[Stacy London]

Sorry, do we legally have to say that?

[Penn Holderness]

No, this is just how I talk. And I really love my Bombas.

[Kim Holderness]

They do feel that good. And they do good too. One item purchased equals one item donated.

[Stacy London]

To feel good and do good, go to bombas.com and use code audio for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M b-s.com and use code audio at checkout.

[Kim Holderness]

This episode is sponsored by gab.

[Penn Holderness]

As we know, the youth mental health crisis is all over the news and we know that social media is a huge driving factor.

[Kim Holderness]

Did you know the US Surgeon General warns that kids who spend more than three hours a day online are twice as likely to have depression and anxiety?

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, we are huge advocates for prioritizing mental health and that includes monitoring the time that we and our kids spend in front of devices.

[Kim Holderness]

I personally keep my phone out of the bedroom at night so I don't spend hours mindlessly scrol rather than getting a good night's sleep.

[Penn Holderness]

Here's the good news though. A company called Gab has solved that problem by doing something no one else is doing. Their approach is tech and Steps.

[Kim Holderness]

Tech and Steps works by providing kids safe phones and watches tailored to every age, offering the right device at the right time.

[Penn Holderness]

From GPS tracking enabled watches for young kids to increased features and parent enabled apps on the phones for tweens and teens. Each device grows with your child.

[Kim Holderness]

Bottom line, you don't have to give your kids a device that was made for an adult. Get them Gab, which keeps them socially connected safely.

[Penn Holderness]

Plus, school is about to start. Can you believe it?

[Kim Holderness]

A perfect time to help your kids focus on learning by giving them a kid safe phone.

[Penn Holderness]

Use our code to get the best deal on something that'll make parenting easier and give you some peace of mind. Visit gab.com holderness and use that code.

[Kim Holderness]

Holderness for a special offer that's G-A-B-B.com Holderness Are these lavender? He's a little Colorblind, too.

[Stacy London]

Stacy, by all means, wear the leather catsuit. Dress for the job you want.

[Kim Holderness]

Dress for the job you want. Pen. Leather catsuit. Meow.

[Penn Holderness]

Well, that wraps up our show.

[Kim Holderness]

Take care, everybody.

[Penn Holderness]

I don't think we need any more from her. Yeah, we get older every day. Got more wrinkles.

[Stacy London]

That's okay. Yeah, we're laughing.

[Penn Holderness]

When we age, life is like a comedy stage. And that's why we got laugh lines.

[Kim Holderness]

Hey, everybody, I'm Kim Holderness.

[Penn Holderness]

And I'm Penn Holderness. Thanks for joining us on Laugh Lines.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes. If you have ever gone to a hairstylist and asked for the. Rachel, you're home. We. We are your people.

[Penn Holderness]

That was. Honestly, when's the last time you saw Rachel?

[Kim Holderness]

I have to say, it looked good on very few people.

[Penn Holderness]

Right.

[Kim Holderness]

Jennifer Aniston. 10 out of 10.

[Penn Holderness]

But then everybody got it and then.

[Kim Holderness]

And very few people pulled it off. I don't have any. My guess.

[Penn Holderness]

I don't think you could pull off a ra.

[Kim Holderness]

No, my hair's too fine.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay.

[Kim Holderness]

So I would just. Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

Before we get to our amazing interview, Stacy London, who was fantastic, by the way. We are so excited at the time we're taping this. We have had this in our possession for exactly three hours.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes.

[Penn Holderness]

And we can't wait to show it to you. This is our new kids book on ADHD. It's called all you can be with ADHD.

[Kim Holderness]

If you're watching on YouTube, we're showing it to you right now. If you're listening, we're just going to describe it to you.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. It is illustrated by Vin Vogel. It is a way to explain to kids that ADHD is you're going to be okay. You're not alone. You're not broken. You actually have a pretty cool brain. We told this story in a rhyming, whimsical, fun, funny way. As you can see, there's sharks with sunglasses. There's ninjas selling T shirts. That's the kind of stuff you see here. You see other celebrities, famous inventors, and historically successful figures who had adhd. And it's a way for kids to. To hopefully understand it a little bit better. We have been talking about doing this for years, and just having it show up today was deeply emotional.

[Kim Holderness]

I. Everything makes me cry right now. True, it's perimenopause in my daughter, but.

[Penn Holderness]

I cried too, and I'm not crying that much right now.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh, really?

[Stacy London]

Okay.

[Kim Holderness]

So he showed it to me and I started crying. So you go to all you can be with ADHD.com. i don't know if I said that correctly. All you can be with ADHD.com and to pre order. And also we're going to be some school visits. I'm so excited. And we're going to be have some, you know, book tour locations across the country. So go there to find out information on those. But I'm so excited to go into schools. I know. I'm so excited. And we are very, very excited about our interview today. We have the fabulous Stacy London joining us. She's going to be talking to us about how fashion changes as we age. I mean, personally, Penn, I used to really, really care about how I looked. Now, not so much, but it really stems from how my body has changed as I age. I really just don't know, like, how to dress anymore. And we wanted to talk to Stacy Lyndon. First of all, she's an icon. She was so empowering in terms of what I should be putting on my body. And I just, I feel like I got fashion therapy. And I think you're gonna love this interview.

[Penn Holderness]

Before we say hello to Stacy, it is interesting. Some of the, like, everyone's got stereotypes when it comes to fashion, and I think parents or Gen Xers, we've definitely, like, had some stereotypes and probably feel like we're leaning into them a little bit. Right? Like Gen X moms, I mean, we.

[Kim Holderness]

Were very yoga pants everywhere. I mean, millennial moms, too. I don't wanna.

[Penn Holderness]

I. Athleisure.

[Kim Holderness]

Athleisure has become something that you. You can go out around and run your errands and athleisure and not feel bad about yourself. I've been trying to break that. I made a New Year's resolution, like last year to get dressed every day. That lasted for about a week.

[Penn Holderness]

Like, that was a shocking New Year's resolution that you.

[Kim Holderness]

I know, but I just felt. But that's why this podcast is so important. What you wear determines how you feel. For me anyway, right? And looking good does change how I feel. I. I'm not dressing for you. I'm not dressing for, you know, other women. I'm dressing for revenge. No, no, no, no. I'm dressing to feel good about myself. And I gave up on myself after about a week, which says a lot.

[Penn Holderness]

The male stereotype, the dad stereotype, has really become the quarter zip.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh, my God.

[Penn Holderness]

It's like the Gen X dad thumbprint. Like, you know that you're a Gen X dad if you've got a sweater that stops right down here and has, like a high Collar.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh my gosh.

[Penn Holderness]

And I've just noticed it in a bunch of my friends too. Like we all just showed up one year at the, at our like annual trip and we're like, oh, we're all wearing quarter zips.

[Kim Holderness]

It's your uniform.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. I don't know that they're even good looking things. It's just someone told us to buy them or maybe our wives bought them. I don't know what happened, but it just happened.

[Kim Holderness]

I love the conversation today. So do we. We should just get.

[Penn Holderness]

Let's get to it. Absolutely. So Stacy London is a renown fashion expert, author and television personality. You probably know her as the co host of the long running TLC series what not to Wear. With a career though that began in the editorial world at Vogue and Mademoiselle, which we'll talk to her about. Stacey has spent decades helping individuals discover their personal style and boost their confidence through fashion.

[Kim Holderness]

She's the author of the New York Times best selling book the Truth about Style and has become a leading voice in conversations about aging, body image and identity. She is a menopause and perimenopause advocate and she's done such important work helping women through that time and she has a new show on Amazon prime called wear whatever the f you want. So great. And it's such a great follow up to what not to Wear. So welcome to the show, the very fabulous Stacy London. Thanks for doing this. I'm so excited.

[Stacy London]

It is my pleasure. I think you are wonderful and inspirational and honestly, you really have made so, so many people happy. And when the world feels really hard and awful, it's wonderful to watch you guys and not take yourself so seriously. It really, it really means a lot. Oh my God.

[Penn Holderness]

Well, well, that wraps up our show.

[Kim Holderness]

Take care everybody.

[Penn Holderness]

I don't think we need any more from her. That, that's pretty much. No, I'm kidding. We're.

[Stacy London]

I'm waiting for the check in the mail.

[Penn Holderness]

No, same right back at you.

[Kim Holderness]

This is a real treat and everything makes me cry right now because I'm about to send my daughter to college. So that like almost made me cry. So thank you. Anyway. Well, it's nice to meet you and perimenopause.

[Stacy London]

Right?

[Kim Holderness]

Oh for. I know we're going to talk about fashion and stuff but I know you've been.

[Penn Holderness]

Let's talk about perimenopause.

[Kim Holderness]

I know, I know you have done a lot of work in this space too that perimenopause menopause changes like items shift everything. Items have shifted during flight. Right.

[Stacy London]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

And so it does affect how I dress, because a. I don't care slash. I don't know how to do it with this different body. It's. It's. Everything is different.

[Stacy London]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

What the hell?

[Stacy London]

I really think that there should be continuing ed for midlife and menopause. We talk about menopause now. I've been talking about it for so long that it is really very. It's very wonderful to see all of the progress that's been made in women's health and menopause in particular. But I really think that we need a different instruction book, because everybody talks about their expiration date.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh.

[Stacy London]

After 40, it's all downhill. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Exactly. My feeling is that it's not that you have an expiration date. I mean, obviously you do when you die, but you don't have an expiration date for being powerful, capable, hot, any of the things that you want to be. It's the values that you held in your youth that have an expiration date. And things start to change in terms of what you care about and where your priorities are.

[Kim Holderness]

I could not agree more. I didn't realize this would happen, though. So that's neither denied. That is where I'm fully shocked. Okay, so let's back it up a bit. You became a household name. We watched your show about what not to wear, Right?

[Stacy London]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

And love. And kind of loved. Part of the action was, like, you got very firm with these people sort of in fashion intervention. Right. There was, like, these rules, and you had to follow them. Right. But now your show, it feels very menopause.

[Stacy London]

It feels like it's very menopause coded.

[Kim Holderness]

Very menopause coded. It's wear whatever the f you want.

[Stacy London]

Yes. And I will tell you, and I really. I speak for both myself and Clinton when I say we did not want to do what not to wear. Neither one of us was interested in doing what not to wear again, no matter how popular the show was. Because, you know, times have changed and conversations have changed, and this idea of, you know, the two of us surprising people who didn't know that their family thought they dressed terribly. I mean, the whole gotcha of it feels like, you know, we called in these big guns to tell you what to do really, is not at all my philosophy or Clinton's philosophy around fashion now. And he came up with the idea, wear whatever the F you want and said, you're really kind of the only person to do this with me, because we originated the rules and now we've got to show people how to break them. And the wonderful thing about that is that, yes, if you watch what not to wear, that does not negate any of the fashion advice that we gave you because we were really talking about proportion, about body shape, about things that are true. It's geometry, right? It's science. But the idea of helping somebody achieve their truest identity is something that we weren't doing on that show. And it is something, something we can do on this show. So on where whatever the f you want, we make suggestions, but we are literally the guardrails for your car to take us where you want to go. We're not dictating the rules. You're telling us what you want and we're helping you find it.

[Kim Holderness]

I think it's interesting because this is what I find in stores right now. I mean, I used to live in New York. I was a reporter on like a basic budget. But I loved putting together an outfit and I felt very confident in it, right? I felt very confident. Items have shifted during flight right now. Well, A, I don't know how much I care, but B, I will walk in the store and if you tell me, like some of the people that you in this show, you're allowing them just to walk around and they look overwhelmed. I'll walk into a store now at 49 and I'm like, I don't know. What I don't know. And now I'm almost wanting you to tell me what to wear because, like, I just don't know. It's so overwhelming. Are you finding that as people age.

[Stacy London]

Yes. So I do find that, particularly with women who saw, you know, were big fans of what not to wear, will come up to me and say, you know, I love wear whatever the f you want. I love the thesis, but I do need rules to follow or I can't figure it out. Right. And for. It's very interesting, it's striking. You see this 20 year difference, right? Our generation, Generation X, we're all about rules. We want. We, you know, we're look longer, leaner, taller, thinner, whatever. You know, we have that crazy body dysmorphia thing. We grew up with Kate Moss, but younger generations are so much more open. Open. There's so much more body positivity, so much more gender positivity in a way that allows us to be so much more creative than we were on the show. Right. And whatnot to where we were trying to make the most amount of people happy with a makeover in our audience. As well as the person having the makeover. Now, this is really. Wear whatever the F you want is focused on people who are interested in exploring a style they didn't think they could have. Right. So there are rules involved in sort of what we want that style to be, but they're the ones kind of expressing that interest. And I think that what you're talking about in perimenopause is one of the most important things. There's a true loss of identity. Who am I? I don't look like myself. I don't feel like myself. I love that you say items have shifted during play. It's body weight redistribution. You may not even gain weight in menopause. Gaining weight is really more to do with aging than just.

[Kim Holderness]

I don't think I've gained weight since, like, before kids. I'm the same. I think scale number. But it's all shifted.

[Stacy London]

It's all shifted. And it changes where you carry your weight, and it changes the way clothes fit on you. And so this is why I think we need. Well, I mean, this is why I hope I can write a book about midlife fashion, because I do think that there is also. We grew up with the benefit of cosmetic dermatology. We know much more about our health. We know to walk 10,000 steps a day, not smoke, drink less. All of these things that are going to elongate our lives. Right. Our lifetimes. So with this much more time on our hands, I don't think you can look at middle age as the end of anything. It is truly a beginning, and I think that's true for men, too.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. So first of all, the proof that your perspective has changed is I've been sitting here with these shower sandals in view this entire time, not realizing that I was wearing them until we're like, oh, you were on. We're on with Stacy, and I'm wearing ufos, which, by the way, are incredibly comfortable. You're wearing shower shoes, and you haven't even said anything. So thank you for that. No, I do. I want to know more about your change in perspective because you're, you know, you're on air. Outward Persona is important. It's iconic. Was there a particular eureka moment where. Where. Where that shifted, or was it a slow, gradual thing?

[Kim Holderness]

More on this after these words. All right. I love you, babe, but you are definitely a hot sleeper.

[Penn Holderness]

I mean, like, attractive or. That's not what you mean. No, you mean I got it.

[Stacy London]

Yep.

[Penn Holderness]

But I'm telling you, like, with these abnormally warm summer nights, I'm feeling it.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah we are all about cool comfort over here and Bolan Branches Percale sheets are cool, crisp and breathable so you never sleep hot again.

[Penn Holderness]

Bolan Branches Percale sheets are made free from toxins with the finest 100% organic cotton.

[Kim Holderness]

They're made ultra crisp with special cooling weave so you never sleep hot again.

[Penn Holderness]

Plus they come with a 30 night worry free guarantee. Yep. If you don't love them after a month, just send them back.

[Kim Holderness]

My favorite part? They are ethically crafted by expert artisans that earn fair wages.

[Penn Holderness]

You already know that we are happy but bowl and branch users and I'm not joking when I tell you how you can feel the quality immediately.

[Kim Holderness]

Plus they get softer with every wash. You have to love that.

[Penn Holderness]

Feel the difference an extraordinary night's sleep can make with bowl and branch get 15% off plus free shipping on your first set of [e-mail] Holderness that's bowl.

[Kim Holderness]

And branch B O L L a n d branch.com holderness to save 15% and unlock free shipping. Exclusions apply.

[Penn Holderness]

From fitness routines to mental resilience, navigating personal goals to tackling burnout we all need a little help just being human.

[Kim Holderness]

That's what the Life Kit podcast from NPR is here to do. If you're looking to move with more intention or just need thoughtful guidance on living better, Life Kit delivers strategies to help make meaningful, sustainable change.

[Penn Holderness]

You know, life kids, life doesn't come with a manual, but every day you're making choices, some big, some small, that shape the direction of your life.

[Kim Holderness]

Life Kit offers real stories, relevant insights and clear takeaways to help you meet those decision making moments with confidence and clarity.

[Penn Holderness]

I just really enjoy how many topics they cover as well. Recent episodes include financial advice for last minute purchases and why Some People Get Bitten by Mosquitoes more than others. Spoiler alert. The I get bitten by mosquitoes more than others?

[Kim Holderness]

Yes.

[Penn Holderness]

And another spoiler alert it might be the color of clothing that you're wearing.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, I listen to Life Kit because I get to hear thoughtful conversations that unpack the emotional and practical side of personal wellness. Actionable guidance I can actually use no fluff, no judgment, trusted voices and expert advice to help take me to the next step, however big or small.

[Penn Holderness]

Get help tackling common issues like relationships, finances, parenting and your career. Then walk away with a game plan you can implement right away.

[Kim Holderness]

Life Kit isn't just another podcast about self improvement. It's about understanding how to live a little better. Starting now.

[Penn Holderness]

So listen now to the Life Kit podcast from npr.

[Stacy London]

Prime delivery is fast. How fast are we talking? We're talking puzzle toys and lick pad delivered so fast you can get this puppy under control. F we're talking chew toys at your door without really waiting. Fast pads, cooling mat and pet him are fast and fast. And there's training T R E A T s faster than you can say fast. And now we can all relax and.

[Paige]

Order these matching hoodies to get cozy and cute.

[Stacy London]

Fast, fast. Free delivery. It's on Prime. I would say it was gradual until it was like, aha.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, right?

[Stacy London]

Had a real aha moment at around. I'm 56 and I was around 47 when I stopped getting as many calls for work. I stopped getting asked to host more shows. I had been guest hosting on the View for around a year and they chose not to go with me. And so I was feeling already like, huh, makeovers don't really seem to be a thing anymore. And I have only ever done styling. And I'm tired of telling people what to do. And I felt this. Oh, maybe this is where the midlife crisis starts. You start to question what you do because all of a sudden it doesn't seem like it's very relevant to any job or. And I really was like, what else can I do? My book came out a year after we finished what not to Wear. And after like a 22 city book tour, I was sort of like, what do I do now? And it really struck me that I was not interested in telling people what to do, that I wasn't getting dressed every day to, like, be on camera, which made me incredibly lazy. And then Covid happened.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes.

[Stacy London]

And I, I am telling you, I believe this has done something unbelievable to our society. Covid has. I don't anybody wants to wear hard pants again. I mean, I hope they're stretching that denim, you know what I'm saying? Because now we have a very different perspective on our work life, on our personal life, on what our priorities are. Are the same way. I think we have to re. Kind of think our priorities during perimenopause. Because at first I thought it was just me. I'm the only one feeling this way. What is going on with me? I had no reference for menopause. I thought it happened in your 70s or 80s. Like, I didn't know it was a midlife.

[Penn Holderness]

Everyone thought that. Everyone thought that.

[Stacy London]

Yeah, everyone. We. I mean. Cause my, my memory is of Edith Bunker yelling at Archie and there being an episode about her being, you know.

[Kim Holderness]

Going through the change and Whispered, whispered.

[Stacy London]

Right, right. And whisper. Gene Stapleton was 47 when she played Edith Bunker. From my five year old perspective, she was 70.

[Kim Holderness]

I know she looked 70.

[Penn Holderness]

All right.

[Stacy London]

Right. And haircut was everything.

[Kim Holderness]

I mean, golden girls for like 40. Okay.

[Penn Holderness]

I'm just super interested, like what you said about COVID and she was talking about how men are in the conversation. I go to a store now trying to look for clothes, and it looks all the high fashion looks like it was designed by people who had some time during COVID What do you mean? Everything's so much baggier and looser and I can't be wrong about this. Like, I'm trying to go find like a form fitting shirt and I walk into a nice store and they're all like, really? They're like way more breathable. And it's probably good. But I may have some of what you're talking about, Stacy, where I've like, worked really hard to stay thin and I want. I want to look trim. And if I see something that makes me look boxy, but it seems like that's the direction that clothes are going in. Am I crazy here?

[Stacy London]

You know, it's not. You're not crazy. And I'll be honest with you, I'm not as up on men's fashion as I am on women's. But oversized clothing.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Stacy London]

Like when I, when we were shooting Wear whatever the f you want, I just wanted clothes that wouldn't make me look like an elephant on screen. Right. Because on television you do, you gain. You gain like 10 pounds, whatever it is. But I just wanted clothes that were fitted enough to look like they look huge on screen. Every pair of pants was massive. It was like down to my hips tripping on the floor. I really struggled with it. And I do think that there is this push towards, I don't want to say the pajamafication of America, but it's sort of like the casual nation of America. Right? We, and I mean, you guys could be responsible for the pajamafication of America, but we won't go there. It was cute. It was cute.

[Kim Holderness]

It was cute. I will say, though, Covid, it changed everything for me because I loved shoes and I loved my heels. I don't think I put on a pair of heels to go to a wedding. And I think my feet are still recovering, so I can't wear. I'm in sneakers all the time. I am in the baggy jeans. I have a pair of those rag and bone jeans that have the elastic waistband. They look like jeans. But they're sweatband jeans, so. But I have the desire to look better because then I feel better. I mean it's a very Gen X thing. Like if I look better, I feel better, feel better. So where do I've aged? I've changed shape, I got sucked five years of COVID since COVID and I haven't put on real pants. So like where do I start? Where do the people listening start?

[Stacy London]

Well, where you start is where I ended. Which is kind of funny. After spending so much time working on perimenopause, owning a menopause company, feeling like it wasn't the right fit, closing that and becoming an advocate, I realized when I would go out on speaking engagements that women between 40 and 60 would come up to me and say, I don't know how to get dressed anymore. I don't want it to be hard. I don't want to feel like everything has to be fancy. But I do have to go to the office and I can't figure this out. How do I look relevant? How do I look good for my age without trying to look like my 25 year old daughter? And that's why I came up with the idea for a clothing line. So I have a clothing line on QVC which I'm not sure you're aware of or not, but the idea of around it was make everything comfortable and everything elegant. So remember that. I don't know, I guess it was the 80s. Looks like a pump but feels like a sneaker. Yes, that's the secret to my clothes. They look like clothes but they feel like pajamas. Similar to that rag and bone vibe I do. All my pants are elastic waist. Almost everything I do has like stretch but I did brocade and I did like, you know, metallics and things that you wouldn't normally see in a, in a kind of line that is traditionally, you know, the consumer is somebody slightly older.

[Kim Holderness]

Right.

[Stacy London]

I want to make something that brought in Gen X to the social shopping conversation outside of TikTok because I do think that that skews young and I wanted to be able to make a collection that I felt had relevance specifically for somebody just like you, who does, who knows that there are times when getting dressed feels good, but also doesn't want to to spend eight hours, you know, the night before trying to figure out what goes with what and is this still appropriate. One thing I will say that's really changed is that I rely much more on clients now and having long talks with clients way before I will ever get to dressing them. Because one I need to know where you're coming from. Are you coming from a place of insecurity? Are you coming from a place of knowing who you are, or are you coming from a place of, of midlife hormonal confusion? Whatever those issues are, I want to get to those. Because how you feel about yourself and the way that you talk to yourself is just as important as what we're going to put on your body. So in some ways, fashion really starts in the brain. What do you believe and what is true? So if somebody said to you you didn't look good in green, you never did. Your aunt tells you you didn't look green, I told you never, don't ever wear green. It doesn't, it doesn't go with your hair. But that's what somebody told you. And you believe it because somebody told you at a tender age. And we tend to remember criticism more than compliments. And then that gets lodged in our brains as truth instead of just a belief we can unlearn. And so I encourage people when they tell me, I can't wear prints, I can't wear green, I don't do this, I don't try leopard. I want, I'm like, then we're going to have to just try all of it, right? You got to try it. It's like taking one step outside your comfort zone. And I think it's really important because when we talk about even men's clothing being too big, you still have agency, right? I want you to go and get either shirts tailored or have shirts custom made. Now, I'm not saying those are cheap options, but if you can't find what you're looking for, you can have it altered. Certainly. Shirts can certainly be altered to fit you in a way that's more figure flattering for you and fits you the way you want it to. So I also tell people, don't give up just because something doesn't feel completely right. You just have to think about, is it valuable enough to you to change it? Is it inexpensive enough to alter it and does it make sense? Is it something that I know that I'll wear? And my two criteria for wearing anything are use, value and joy. And it has to satisfy at least one. Every purchase has to satisfy at least one of those two things. And then I also recommend shopping in outfits instead of just a one off piece, because a lot of times we come back and we think we found something really brilliant and we can't figure out what to wear it with. So you save yourself a lot of time by shopping an outfit so that you have an outfit ready to go. Then you go home and you play in your closet, and you're like, look, this suit goes with every shirt I own. And I got it in the perfect navy, and it goes with every everything. And then I'm going to get a gray suit and I'll fix that, and then I'll get a black dress. And you start to see what's missing. When you have outfits, then you can play with mixing and matching them. But it's much harder if you bring home a bright floral shirt and realize that none of your neutrals look really good with it or you don't have a color that goes with it. So I. Even if you do buy a single piece, I always say make sure it already goes with two things you own. Okay? Otherwise it would put into your closet.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, those. That's. Those are great rules. Do you have any other, like, shopping tips?

[Stacy London]

And I don't even think of those as rules. I think of those as tips. Right?

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Stacy London]

Those. Suggestions?

[Kim Holderness]

Suggestions?

[Penn Holderness]

Gentle nudges?

[Kim Holderness]

Yes. No. Anything? Yeah, these are great.

[Penn Holderness]

They're gentle nudges.

[Kim Holderness]

Any other. Stacy?

[Stacy London]

Yes. And I will review because I know I just spouted them off. When shopping in outfits, I think is. Is incredibly important. And if you're not shopping in an outfit, you knew specifically that you are either looking for something or something caught your eye that's so wild and it brings you immense joy, then buy it. But think about, even try. I'm just talking about a shirt because I'm using that as an example. I would try the shirt on with pants from the store in the dressing room. Even if, you know, oh, wait, I have pants exactly like this at home, then, you know, you don't need to buy the pants, but it will jog your memory so that whenever you make a purchase, you already have an idea of what it can go with. Otherwise, what happens is that you get a closet full of wonderful pieces that are disconnected. And I like to think of a closet as sort of like a living, breathing thing. And it changes, right? So I'm always looking to kind of find the connective tissue that makes it all work smoothly together. So I started a grocery list. I keep a post it on the door of the inside door of my closet. And when I realized, wow, I'm really missing something, or if I had this one pair of pants, it would really tie together a lot of tops that I don't wear, I put it on the list. So I don't just randomly shop, right? I Want a wardrobe that looks and feels great, that does not make me tense when I open my closet doors and go to get dressed. So I'm going to make a grocery list like I would to bake a cake. I want to turn out right. So I'm going to add all of these things in as I think of them as I dress in the morning or as I put clothes away at night. Wow. All of my sweaters are black, navy, and gray.

[Kim Holderness]

How did you know? Stacy.

[Stacy London]

Right. But when you see that, you can, you can put on the list, find a color that you love to to wear so that you have a color in a bright red or tangerine or beautiful aqua blue. Doesn't matter. But if you notice that you're doing the same thing, you're buying the same pieces over and over, that's when you know you really have to branch out.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, my husband here has five black T shirts. He found a brand he likes. He's a tall guy, he's six five. So like off the rac kind of hard. So he has five of this black T shirt.

[Penn Holderness]

No, I have two of this, but then I have two slightly lighter blacks and then gray.

[Stacy London]

And then like actually important that you know that because blacks, you can't just match black and black, the material and how saturated the color is will make you look like you got dressed in the dark if you don't do it right.

[Penn Holderness]

I know. Thank you for that compliment. I really don't know what I'm doing. I'll say that I'm probably a stereotypical male and I have a theory about about this, by the way.

[Stacy London]

I'd love to hear it.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay. We have like 27 blue button down shirts.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes.

[Penn Holderness]

They all look roughly the same. If we see a shirt that we like, we go online and we buy 65 more of them.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes.

[Penn Holderness]

I believe that men are more vulnerable than they let on when it comes to fashion and aren't really wanting to stem out on anything new.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, fair.

[Stacy London]

I agree with that. And I'll tell you why. My experience styling, and I'm making a distinction here, like with straight men for a reason, is because I do think that certainly for our generation, there is some kind of weird. It's not shame. I don't even know if it's embarrassment. But it's like you don't want anybody to know that you care. Right? But we all care. We all care about the way that we look. Men, women, whatever gender you are in some way, we are going to care about the way that we look because that's how we get accepted. That's just sociobiology. Right. And if you're afraid to jump out of something or. Or a certain pattern of dressing, that's because it's served you well so far. Right. It turns different. If you say to me, I'm tired of black T shirts, and I really want to get some shirts. Like, you've got great black and white hair. Like, I would highly recommend wearing lavender. I think it would look amazing on you.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay. Now, what is lavender?

[Kim Holderness]

It's a lighter purple.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay. I should also mention what is lavender?

[Kim Holderness]

He's a little colorblind, too.

[Stacy London]

Stacy.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Stacy London]

All right. That's fair.

[Penn Holderness]

Sorry. So red, pink, and purple are all kind of.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, okay. I'll look for lavender.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Stacy London]

Yeah. I really like. But again, the reason I say that is if you came to me and you said, I've got five black T shirts, I've got eight pairs of jeans, I've got, you know, 27 blue shirts and a sports coat and a suit. Right. And you said to me you wanted to do something different, then the first place I would start with a man is color. Because I really believe that there you have fewer options in terms of clothes. Right. You can do skinny pants, you can do straight pants, you can do wide leg pants are in now as a trend for men. I don't think that's going to stick around. So generally speaking, there's just not a lot of innovation, I think, when it comes to dressing for men. Because, you know, unless you do want to wear a kilt.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Stacy London]

It's not like. It's not like you have tilts, skirts, dresses. You can wear those things if you want to, no shade. But most straight men are not wearing. Walking around that way. And there are, you know, or, you know, CIS heterosexual straight men. And I think that it is a little bit difficult to create outfits that are really interesting unless you're willing to take some chances. I think it's amazing if you see men on the red carpet now. It's really become almost a standard to see men wearing big brooches right. On their lapels, like diamonds and emeralds. And, like, you know, I totally credit Timothee Chalamet. I really do. He started, I mean, the partnership with Cartier. Genius. Genius.

[Penn Holderness]

He made butter yellow famous. Right. Didn't he turn butter yellow into, like, the new fashion? He was. I saw that. My daughter was like, look, Timothee Chalamet's wearing butter yellow now.

[Stacy London]

Yeah. Yeah. But it's one of my arguments that nobody looks Good in butter yellow.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay, there you go.

[Kim Holderness]

So I will say that I'm watching, I'm trying to spend time with my son and he's obsessed with sports and we were watching this like QB show on Netflix or something.

[Penn Holderness]

Quarterback.

[Kim Holderness]

Quarterback. Yeah. And part of it was one of the quarterbacks forgetting his name. But he's very cute, but definitely younger. And he had a stylist, but it's so cool for my son to see. Okay, this guy spent the afternoon with a stylist to find out what bag he's going to carry and to go with these green pants. And like that's normal. And it wasn't. There wasn't a conversation about like, oh, does this make me look one way or the other? It was just like he wanted to be extra. He wanted to like push the boundaries. And so my son sees that as normal for you. Anything like that. It was some sort of derogatory thing.

[Penn Holderness]

All the people I wanted to be like when I was growing up, with the exception of like Weird Al, wore a suit and a tie when they went to work. And that was it.

[Stacy London]

Yeah, I mean that's what we grew up with. And you know, to some degree I think it's also interesting. Like I used to, I mean, I don't dress it all the way. I dressed on what not to wear. I don't wear 5 inch heels anymore and skin tight pencil skirts or dresses. What a bore. I mean there was a period in the early aughts where everybody was wearing platforms that looked like stripper shoes to me. I was like, we are all wearing clear loose sight heels and we think this is cool, you know, and like butter yellow. Butter yellow I think is a trend that's going to come and go pretty quickly because it's just not that flattering. But for me, I think, you know, men really should have the opportunity. And you know, we always say it's like gay men have great taste and they always dress better or it's more dandy, like, or they have more novelty. But that just isn't fair. It's like it's not fair to lump any group into a certain kind of category. And I wish I even approached my publisher and said that I wanted to write a book on style for men. And they said no. They said nobody will buy it or if they buy it, they'll brown bag it like porn.

[Penn Holderness]

Hang on. Here's the thing though. I do feel like if I'm in a conversation with my buddies and I'm wearing something awesome, someone's gonna say Something.

[Kim Holderness]

Like, we need to get new friends.

[Stacy London]

You know what? I, I don't doubt that. And I think that that is, you know, it's part of our cultural patriarchy and also the fact that, like, why wouldn't your friends say to you, damn, you look good. Where'd you get that shirt? Right? Because that's what women do.

[Penn Holderness]

Most of my friends, that's how I.

[Stacy London]

Get some of my best designer ideas.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, I think most, most of my friends do, but there's always one or two of them that I think are, like, old fashioned and are stuck in this. I, I think very, very arcane belief that if you are fashionable as a male, there's a chance you're gay. Which, by the way, isn't even a bad thing. But, like, why are they attaching those two things to each other?

[Kim Holderness]

I don't know.

[Stacy London]

Well, I mean, because those stereotypes have been around for a long time and I still think, certainly right now, you know, we're still fighting the LGBTQIA issues because we consider these things weird when we talk about them in heterosexual circles. This idea that it's not okay to care about the way that you present, present yourself. I mean, to me, it's so silly because we all have the same brain, right? We're all working with the same sort of, you know, old school, you know, technology in here. This is prehistoric computer. And we, our brains, we make a judgment about anything we see in three seconds. Three seconds. Prehistoric. That's the word I was looking for. Where we're using prehistoric technology. Our brains make us, they force us to make a decision about the person that we see in front of us in order to fight flight or freeze syndrome. Right? Are they safe? You know, that's what it used to be. Can they run from a saber toothed tiger? Are they going to feed me? Am I going to mate with this person? There were literally life reasons to keep the human race going, that we have to make a judgment in three seconds. But as a society now, we make that judgment about, like, huh, her bag is cool, or huh, he's wearing a different color. Right? We use them for different things. Once we know you're safe, once we know we don't have to run away, all of those things. And it's kind of an extension of how we judge people, right? It's just a judgment. So if you control your own narrative, I just. This is the thing about clothes that I will never get over. It gives you the power to get people to think what you want them to think about you. Right? Think about that. Like, that's kind of incredible that instead of somebody making some random judgment, you can, you can impress upon that judgment or you can help shape that judgment by the way you look when you show up. Are you going for a job interview? Are you dressed neatly? Are you dressed, you know, in clothes with no stains or holes? Do you look. Look competent, capable? Do you look like you're good at your job? Or do you look like a mess and I wouldn't trust you to go like, near anything? Or do you look like a mess and you want to work in some like, awesome thrift store? And they're like, come on in. How much can we sell those jeans for? You know, so it really, I always say the suit, it depends on the context and the narrative that you're trying to control. So if you are going to interview at a super old corporate law firm, you know, that's very, very rigid and very, very conservative, you might want to wear a pinstripe suit, right? That's going a visual language they will understand. But if you are going to audition to be a dominatrix, like, by all means, wear the leather catsuit. You know what I mean? Dress for the job you want.

[Kim Holderness]

Dress for the job you want. Pen leather catsuit. Meow. Besides the vegan leather catsuit, what are some Gen X like the, the people listening to this podcast? Women. Let's start with the women. What are some staples you think that we need have in our closets?

[Stacy London]

I'm very careful about this question because if you read Dress your Best or even the Truth about Style, there were a lot of suggestions about what things More, more in Dress your best, we talked about the, you know, the exact kinds of things you should have in your closet. In the Truth about Style, I think I talked more about the kinds of things that certain clothing represents. Right. When I want to feel tough or I want to walk into a situation and feel like I am the, you know, the coolest chick in the room, I'm going to wear leather. I'm probably going to wear a leather jacket or cool leather jeans. That is a great, like, kind of armor for me.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, right.

[Stacy London]

It makes me feel tough. Even when I'm nervous, I can put that on and I can be like, oh, yeah, you can pull this off. Right? So there are certain things I never want to say anymore. There are absolutely certain things you have to have in your closet because you. Everybody's different. Everybody's individual. Not body wise, but in terms of what you're trying to achieve with what you're Wearing. If you are a mom of many kids, I'm not going to say you should definitely get a latex catsuit because you're going to wear that never. Right. Although maybe, I don't know, if you have toddlers, it certainly won't stain. If you get vegan or patent, it'll just, you know, you can wash it with Windex. But really the idea is what are the things that are going to make you happy? Are they going to make you happy? And are they going to have use value? Jeans are obviously I say denim for everyone simply because denim and jeans in particular are like a blank slate. You can test any trend with jeans. So if you're not sure about, let's say Ms. Moneypenny, the sexy secretary look or something like that, again, I'm just making this up. You could do a pussy bow blouse and a very fitted jacket with a pair of jeans and you're already doing half the look. It's a lot easier way to take something that could look very trendy or very forced and make it look much more casual and easy, much more like you. And then if you like it, you can add that pencil skirt and do the whole trend. But it's a really good way to start, is always testing things with jeans.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, I. Any advice for. Okay, I'm just gonna say a friend, but it's really me. Everything in my closet, you were saying all sweaters are like black, navy and gray. That's me. All of my. I do it kind of by color and then style. All white or all back or black? All like, all solid. And every time I go to the store, I come home with another white button up shirt or another black something.

[Penn Holderness]

And you have 40 tank tops, white.

[Kim Holderness]

Tank tops, 40 white and 40 black. Like, so how do I stretch myself when I walk into the store?

[Stacy London]

Okay, well, first of all, I don't think it's about stretching yourself in a store. I think it's about stretching yourself in your closet and figuring out what you can get rid of of.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Stacy London]

Because you have that many of the same thing. You are not wearing all of them.

[Kim Holderness]

No, I'm not. I'm wearing a. I'm wearing a tenth of my closet.

[Stacy London]

Yeah. So usually, you know, the rule is 80, 20. Right. We wear 20% of our clothes 80% of the time and we wear the rest of the 80 clothes 20% of the time. So my feeling is you need to think about what you don't need in there before you can start to put things back. Because when you have 40 white tank tops. And you have, you know, 30 black sweaters or whatever it is, you don't need more than five. And that also sets you up. Right. You can. And this is my other thing, don't throw clothes away. We have enough clothing problems in the world. You either donate them to charity, you do a clothing swap with your friends, you can put them on consignment, online, whatever, or take the tax write off. Right. And what you can do when you donate is you take whatever that amount is and you say, I'm gonna put this back, back into my closet. I'm reinvesting in clothes because I've gotten rid of them. Right before COVID literally right before I sold 27 pairs of high heels because I was like, I'm done.

[Kim Holderness]

Wow, good timing.

[Penn Holderness]

I know.

[Kim Holderness]

Because if you've done that, great timing. After Covid, nobody wanted them. Right?

[Stacy London]

Exactly. But they all sold designer shoes. They do. They have a good second market.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. Also, if I have an 18 year old daughter, obviously I. Hairstyles are very different, but is there such a thing as. I mean, because I walk into stores with her and everything's like, she's very confident and like you were saying, body positivity. I mean, she is 5, 10 and strong and just walks through the world. I'm so jealous.

[Stacy London]

But I will say that again. Yeah, you guys should give yourself a little bit of credit for that. You made an amazing human who now walks through the world in such a beautiful way. That doesn't happen with everybody, guys.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, thank you for saying we worked really hard.

[Stacy London]

Oh, high five.

[Kim Holderness]

We worked really hard because Kate Moss was the person we were supposed to look like. I, I kind of, we went kind of overboard into, you know, anyway, she's great and. But what her stores. I'm using air quotes there. Her stores. I feel like I can't. Like, is there such thing as age appropriate fashion?

[Stacy London]

You know, it's funny, I used to say that there was, but the older I get, the less I believe that I think that just naturally, like, I'm not interested in dressing in what an 18 year old is dressing in. And the more I trust my own opinion, the less I worry about what other things or other people are thinking about my style. I walk out of the house making sure I feel like I can kick ass. I feel like I am going to take over the world. Because everything I do now I try to recommend to other people that I think is important. Anytime I go out, no matter what, I will find one person and say, you look beautiful today. You look Stunning today. You look like a badass today. Whatever it is. Somebody I see on the train, somebody I see on the street, I don't care. I just want somebody to know because it's been done to me.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, and then they're texting their friends, oh my God, Stacy. Linda just said I look amazing, which I've done.

[Stacy London]

You know, I love to do that to people who watch. Watched what not to wear or watching whatever the f you want. And they'll come up to me and they'll say, you know, oh, I grew up with you. I'm like, thank you very much. You're a grown person now. You were four when you were watching. Lovely to hear, lovely to hear. I was like, all of you got to watch the 360 mirror. Clinton and I, like, aged on television in that 360 degree mirror. Every contributor only had to go in three times. We had to go in three times every week.

[Kim Holderness]

It got, well, but iconic, right? Iconic.

[Penn Holderness]

While we're going back in time, like, I'm, I'm getting increasingly fascinated just listening to you talk. And I'm going to tell you why. You're, you're very confident, you're very self assured, you are clearly an authority. You're very comfortable in your own skin. And I want to know more about your past. Like, you went through Vogue in like the, you know, 80s and 90s when it was a pretty cutthroat time where sexism was everywhere, where you had to kind of be a badass.

[Stacy London]

I will say that I was £180 pounds. I'm 5 6, and I was £180 when I worked at Vogue. I was by far, I was like a size 16. And I was, you know, everybody who worked at Vogue was a negative zero, right? And I was knocked. And I had gone through, you know, a college eating disorder. I got sick, I wound up in the hospital. I had to gain weight. Then I had to, you know, balance out all of these things all while at Vogue. And my way of dealing with that was by being the class clown, by working three times harder than everybody else. I worked with three editors instead of one and, you know, really had to prove myself. Like, I didn't want to be sort of, I don't know, you know, back in those days, we weren't even talking about body positivity. I would walk into a store and say, hey, do you have a size 8? And they would be like, we don't carry larger sizes. What? Wild, wild, wild, wild, wild, wild times. But it was what I came out of it with was that really, the fashion industry is built on insecurity.

[Kim Holderness]

That's what it's on.

[Stacy London]

It doesn't run on money. It runs on insecurity, and it runs on money. But you know what I mean. And what if we came at fashion from the opposite perspective? See, fashion is an industry, but style is for the individual, and that's where we get to control the narrative and make our choices. And once I realized that, having studied philosophy, psychology, and literature in college, when I got to what not to wear, the last piece of that puzzle was truly learning compassion. Compassion for people who I thought were so wonderful, who would look at themselves in the mirror and cry or not believe that they'd let themselves go or. Or couldn't believe that they could look so beautiful. And it wasn't the what not to wear stories. It was what happened after. People would get the job of their dreams, meet the love of their life, have children, like, have better relationships with their kids, get divorced. They would change their lives based on this very significant visual transformation. And so I don't know where I was going with this. What was I talking about? Oh, and this is why compassion was sort of the last piece of the puzzle for me. Because when I could see people doing it to themselves, I thought, oh, my God, I talk about myself this way, I talk to myself this way. And here I have so much empathy for these other people. I've got to be kinder to myself. And if I can do that, then I can walk through the world with a certain amount of self assurance. Doesn't mean I don't have insecurities, but I'm not going to let insecurity run my life. I'm going to acknowledge it, I'm going to speak to it, I'm going to do what I can to, you know, kind of devalue it. But I'm. I'm always going to give more compassion to myself than I was able to before that show. That show really changed me.

[Penn Holderness]

Well, amen.

[Kim Holderness]

Amen. I mean, I think if we could all strive for that, right? If we could all strive to just talk, be a little kinder to ourselves.

[Stacy London]

A little kinder to ourselves. And also, I just think, unfortunately, one of the downsides of sort of our huge technological advances is that a lot of the outcomes of social media were possible, but we didn't think they were probable. Right. This is what Tristan Harris was saying at the last TED conference about AI. We have this incredibly powerful tool that we're going to unleash to humans with no guardrails around it. And we saw what happened when we had the opportunity to do that with social, and we just, we didn't put guardrails around it. And you see loneliness, depression, isolation, comparison, envy, all of these things that we weren't counting on. We were counting on people connecting, right? And yes, that's the great side, that I can meet somebody from across the world who has psoriatic arthritis like me, right? That's the great part. But all the other things have not been great. And we're not looking at ways to counteract that. We're not looking at ways to make people, people feel more confident about themselves. And that isn't about giving advice. That's about helping people find what helps them. And any great stylist will never impose their style on you. They will find the style that lives in you.

[Kim Holderness]

Changing lives through style and fashion is Stacy London. More on this after these words. This is an ad by BetterHelp.

[Penn Holderness]

Hey all, this is Penn and Kim Holderness from the Laugh Lines podcast.

[Kim Holderness]

Being a parent isn't easy. Being a whole person while parenting, that can be even harder.

[Penn Holderness]

And trust us, we have been there. Like, it's not just about being present, entirely present when your kids are around, but also fighting time for yourself, right? Like having two kids, I do feel splintered in a lot of directions trying to be a parent.

[Kim Holderness]

With my daughter headed to college, I find myself crying at the smallest thing. It is hard. And on the latest episode of Mind if We Talk, licensed therapist Jesu Joe is joined by Big Little Feelings co founders Dina Margolin and Kristin Gallant, along with Cameron Oakes Rogers, host of Conversations with Cam.

[Penn Holderness]

Together they explore how to identify your evolving needs, parenting as a neurodivergent person, and how to genuinely support the new parents in your life because no one.

[Kim Holderness]

Has it all together. It's the truth. And that's okay. Listen and follow. Mind if we talk Wherever you get your podcasts?

[Paige]

This is Paige, the co host of Giggly Squad. I use Uber Eats for everything, and I feel like people forget that you can truly order anything, especially living in New York City. It's why I love it. You can get Chinese food at any time of night, but it's not just for food. I order from CVS all the time. I'm always ordering from the grocery store. If a friend stops over, I have to order champagne. I also have this thing that whenever I travel, if I'm ever in a hotel room, I never feel like I'm missing something because I'll just uber eats it the amount of times I've had to Uber eats hair items like hairspray, deodorant, you name it, I've ordered it. On Uber Eats, you can get grocery alcohol everyday essentials in addition to restaurants and food you love. So in other words, get almost anything With Uber Eats. Order now for alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details.

[Penn Holderness]

Before we let you go. You have a fan.

[Stacy London]

You can keep me as long as you like.

[Penn Holderness]

You have a fan in the room. Her name is Sam Allen. She's our producer on the show and I'm sure she'd like to say hello. So she, like, she showed up. I'm like, sam, you look nice today.

[Kim Holderness]

I didn't mean that.

[Penn Holderness]

You don't always look nice.

[Stacy London]

Oh, my God, Sam, I'm so excited to meet you.

[Kim Holderness]

Sam is our producer.

[Penn Holderness]

All right, guys, I'm in the back now. We're good.

[Sam Allen]

I was sitting on the screen so I couldn't see you, but I know you've heard this a million times. I grew up watching your show, and I do wear a T shirt every day. Tell me about your mom hurt that you were going to be on the show. And she was like, if you, if you wear a T shirt tomorrow, I will kill you. So we grew up watching you and she's like, you can't wear a T shirt in front of Stacy London.

[Stacy London]

So, yeah, I'm wearing tell your mom I'm wearing polar fleece.

[Sam Allen]

And I, I have to add, like, when you came out, that was also big for me as a proud. Yeah. So that was, like, huge.

[Stacy London]

Ashley, you know, I, I, I, I can't thank you enough for that. And, you know, I've, I've told people many times, if I had known when I was on what not to wear that I was queer, I would have come out sooner. It wasn'. I just didn't know. And that was another crazy thing about midlife was dating women. I never dated women until I was 49 years old.

[Kim Holderness]

Whoa. Yeah. That's crazy.

[Stacy London]

Yeah, Pen, not to worry. But just so you know, 49 the.

[Penn Holderness]

Time dating women is awesome.

[Kim Holderness]

She built shelves for her girlfriend because she's like, I just thought you needed them. And I'm like, oh, God, I need a handy guy.

[Penn Holderness]

Or you don't have that?

[Kim Holderness]

No, I do not have a handy guy.

[Penn Holderness]

She does not have a handy guy.

[Stacy London]

You're wonderful in so many other ways. Not everybody can be all things to one person, right? I mean, I feel like A song.

[Kim Holderness]

In, like five seconds. He can write.

[Sam Allen]

He writes lyrics in his head. I mean, it's incredible.

[Stacy London]

Yeah, I'm really hoping that you'll write a song like, Ode to Stacy by Pen. Oh, get in here.

[Sam Allen]

Write her a song.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

Stacy, I'll send you a song in about 20 minutes. Yeah, I'll send you a song.

[Stacy London]

Really?

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, I'll send you a song in 20 minutes.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. Okay. Before he sends you your song, is there anything besides where. Whatever. I'm sorry.

[Stacy London]

Wear whatever the f you want.

[Kim Holderness]

Sorry. Is there anything else? Sorry. Is there anything else we can help you spread the word on?

[Stacy London]

Well, there's a couple things, you know, I'm hoping we're going to get a second season for. Where the f you want. We're waiting to hear. And in the meantime, we had a storefront for the show so you could shop the looks that each of the people. People were in. And we extended that so that I started a storefront on Amazon of all my favorite things, having nothing just to do with the show, but all my favorite things. Things that I think are comfortable, beautiful, helpful in every category. Pets, home, fashion, beauty. All the things that I love that I will tell you, I had no idea. If you do some, like, real deep diving on Amazon, the stuff you'll find is remarkable, which I just didn't know.

[Kim Holderness]

Right.

[Stacy London]

So I started my own storefront, which I'm very, very proud of. I have tried and tested every product. I can discuss any product at length. And then, you know my. My QVC brand by Stacy London. If you are between 40 and 60, I really encourage you to try it. I encourage you to try it if you're between 60 and 80. And I encourage you not to try it if you're younger because you can. Can probably borrow your mom's eventually.

[Kim Holderness]

I love this. We will put links to both in the show notes. And this has been a joy. I love talking to you. I could talk to you forever. Pen's gonna send you a song. And then when we're in New York, you're gonna take pin shopping.

[Stacy London]

I would. Okay, first of all, like, can we make a, like, pinky swear deal on that? Okay, great.

[Penn Holderness]

That'd be awesome.

[Stacy London]

I actually, Clinton is six' four. Having height is the best thing to dress. Well, I mean, I love it for men and for women, I mean, that elongation is amazing, but it's really great on men, so I would love to take you shopping. And two, I just felt like we would already be friends.

[Penn Holderness]

Yes.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes, we're friends.

[Penn Holderness]

I'M getting that very strong vibe about that. You are a lovely human being.

[Stacy London]

I kind of knew this would happen, I'm not gonna lie. And I don't even know if we talked about fashion enough, because I did. I did know that there were more questions you wanted to ask me. But the one thing that I will say, the most important thing that I'll say is that I think that middle age, if I could call it anything, is really an amount of time where you go from a real reckoning to a renaissance. And for anybody who's in the middle of that reckoning or in the middle of that storm, the most important thing is identity. And it's very hard to keep it when you are going through something that can be a struggle and that can feel both mentally and physically difficult to push through. But I promise you, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. And the more you do on the work of who you want to be, the better your style at this age will be.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, this has been so much fun. It was so nice to meet you.

[Stacy London]

You too, guys. Really, it was an absolute pleasure.

[Kim Holderness]

I feel like I just went through fashion therapy.

[Stacy London]

Okay.

[Kim Holderness]

Sam, what did you think of Stacy London?

[Sam Allen]

I'm starstruck, actually.

[Kim Holderness]

Right. Like to see her sweet face.

[Sam Allen]

And she was so nice.

[Kim Holderness]

So nice.

[Sam Allen]

I'm sure she's told every single day, like, I watched you, I watched you, I watched you. But like, I don't know, like, she seemed genuine.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, well, and you didn't get to. Because you're back there listening to audio. You didn't get to see her. She's like crazy animated and has like a very positive energy about her because.

[Kim Holderness]

She has like that energy that is so enviable. Like, you know those women that are just a force. And so I just was so excited to talk to her. It was so great.

[Penn Holderness]

What'd you learn so much about the, like, the. The different sources of dysmorphia and body images and that being generational like that. I never thought about that. Right. The whole Gen X part of it and what we grew up around. And she obviously was like intimately involved with that, with all the magazines.

[Stacy London]

The.

[Penn Holderness]

It. It didn't sound surprising when she said that all of these fashion magazines pedal in insecurity. But I don't know if I've ever heard it said exactly like that. So she's like, she's a visionary and she comes from a place where she's kind of a cutting edge visionary when it comes to this stuff.

[Kim Holderness]

It is just amazing as a Gen X woman who was a part of the industry that served us, these grossly thin models, as beauty standards. For her to be able to unravel.

[Penn Holderness]

And completely shift the paradigm.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, is. It's. That's pretty amazing work. And I think that I. I am proud of seeing how my daughter and her friends walk around with confidence, eating donuts and cookies and pasta and, like, don't have an. Like, just, like, what if jeans are tight? Whatever. Get new jeans. Like, whereas we were not. We didn't. Or I didn't. I shouldn't give that to everybody, but I did not have that sort of confidence. So if my jeans got tight, I'd be like, oh, stop eating donuts. Anyway, in previous episodes, we were workshopping what to call people who listen to this show. Are they laugh liners? Like, what. What are we. What are we calling this community that we're creating? Because it is a very, very cool group of people that is growing by the minute.

[Penn Holderness]

And. And so here are some suggestions that we got. Patty said she likes laugh liners.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Penn Holderness]

Simple. Gerard said. Holdernessers. Kim said, is this you, Kim, or someone else? Another Kim said laughables.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh, like. Like a lunchable.

[Penn Holderness]

I like that might be my clubhouse leader.

[Kim Holderness]

Because you know what? Because Gen X is so lunchable.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, that's.

[Penn Holderness]

That's my laughables. Perry said, if your studio is the Holder Nest, we are all Holder nesters.

[Kim Holderness]

I like that. So Anne Marie Tapke submitted some ideas.

[Penn Holderness]

She's very creative.

[Kim Holderness]

The Laugh Pack. Love that.

[Penn Holderness]

Yep.

[Kim Holderness]

Fine line, friends. That's because Laugh Lines. Crow's Feet Club. Oh, I sort of like that. The Cackle Club.

[Penn Holderness]

My two favorite of all of these are. So this is me. I like the Laugh Pack because it reminds me of the Brat Pack. And I like the Laughables. But we're gonna keep this open for a little bit.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. So send us your suggestions. You can leave a comment on the YouTube video, or you can email us podcastholdernessfamily.com also, like, maybe they should make.

[Penn Holderness]

The decision anyway because we're naming them.

[Kim Holderness]

So how about we do this? We just. We're gonna crowdsource, and then we're gonna do a vote.

[Penn Holderness]

We'll do a vote.

[Kim Holderness]

Twenty minutes ago, Penn told Stacy London that he'd have a song for her. And I think it's actually been 15 minutes. I've just been sitting here scrolling on my phone, and I have no idea what's about to happen. So here is Pen's ode to Stacy London.

[Penn Holderness]

She said she wanted an Ode to Stacy and like, ode to me. Like, feels and I, I, I do think this is an ode to Stacy, but I decided to use the homonym version. So this is called Ode to to Stacy. Like O e O W E D.

[Kim Holderness]

Like we owe this to Stacy.

[Penn Holderness]

These are things that are owed to Stacy. Okay, so it's both an ode to Stacy and it's owed to Stacy.

[Kim Holderness]

Got it.

[Penn Holderness]

That's some next level shit right there. We feel like Stacy and us are friends. She helps us out with fashion and she says it's okay to be a little bit crazy. These are things that are owed to Stacy.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes.

[Penn Holderness]

She used to be a makeover juggernaut. Now she says wear whatever the f you want.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

She make him feel better about dressing. And Lacey, These are things that are owed to Stacy.

[Kim Holderness]

Love, Bob.

[Stacy London]

This is a pop.

[Penn Holderness]

She taught us that style should be joyful. But maybe don't wear a catsuit to a job interview cuz that may not be employable unless it's for a dominatrix interview. Now a happier fashion life awaits me. These are things that are owed to Stacy.

[Stacy London]

Yay.

[Kim Holderness]

That was incredible.

[Stacy London]

There we go.

[Penn Holderness]

That's what we're owed to Stacy.

[Kim Holderness]

A good job, babe.

[Penn Holderness]

So we're not gonna do that every show.

[Kim Holderness]

I think we should do a song after every show. Okay. Should we read credits? You should sing the credits.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay. Laugh Lines is written and produced by Kim Holderness, Pen Holderness and Ann Maria Tapke with original music by Penholderness, including this song. It is filmed, edited and live produced by Sam Allen and hosted by a cast. As always, we love to hear from you. Please write to [e-mail] or leave a voicemail at three two three and we will talk to you soon on the laply. From real world inspiration to the industrial.

[Stacy London]

Metaverse to total immersion Innovate at the.

[Penn Holderness]

Speed of software within the industrial Metaverse. Transform the everyday with Siemens skincare routines felt overwhelming until I found Panoxyl. With breakout fighting tools like the best selling foaming wash with 10% benzoyl peroxide, pimple patches and acne fighting body spray. Panoxyl makes a difference I can see and feel. Dermatologists recommended and trusted for over 50 years. It's clear why Panox Penoxyl is the acne authority. Find your clear skin [e-mail] or on Amazon. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Kim Holderness]

This is Rose. Rose's flight is delayed again. At this point, she has walked the.

[Stacy London]

Entire terminal twice and has memorized every news headline on the airport tv.

[Kim Holderness]

All she really wants to do is take off.

[Stacy London]

Good thing Rose has a library of free ebooks with Prime. Suddenly she's chasing bad guys, kissing hot vampires, solving murders. You know, living her best life. Free ebooks library. It's on pr.