What's Up With DEI with Donald Thompson

Summary

Episode Summary: "What's Up With DEI with Donald Thompson"

Laugh Lines with Kim & Penn Holderness dives deep into the intricate world of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) in this insightful episode featuring Donald Thompson, CEO and Co-Founder of the Diversity Movement. Released on February 18, 2025, this episode sheds light on the true essence of DEI, dispels common misconceptions, and explores its practical applications within organizations to foster inclusive and productive workplaces.

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1. Introduction to DEI and Guest

The episode begins with Kim and Penn Holderness expressing their desire to gain a clearer understanding of DEI beyond the buzzword status it has acquired in recent times. Recognizing the need for a more nuanced conversation, they welcome Donald Thompson, a seasoned expert in inclusive leadership and DEI initiatives, to guide listeners through the complexities of the topic.

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2. Understanding DEI: Beyond the Buzzword

Donald Thompson kicks off the discussion by clarifying what DEI truly stands for and what it is not. He emphasizes that DEI is often misunderstood and misrepresented in mainstream conversations.

Key Points:

• DEI Misconceptions:
  • Not Quotas: DEI is not about enforcing numerical targets for diversity.
  • Inclusive Beyond Ethnicity: It extends beyond just race, encompassing gender, neurodiversity, and other facets of identity.
  • Maintaining Standards: DEI does not equate to lowering standards but rather enhancing access and opportunities.

Notable Quote:

“DEI is when a corporation says, you know what, if you're a new parent, let's really look at our parental leave policies so both the mom and the dad can spend time bonding with that new baby.” – Donald Thompson [10:03]

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3. Practical Applications of DEI in Business

Thompson delves into how DEI can be effectively integrated into business practices to drive better outcomes, enhance productivity, and create a more harmonious workplace.

Key Points:

• Inclusive Policies: Implementing equitable parental leave and ensuring equal pay for equal work.
• Merit-Based Hiring: Expanding recruitment efforts to include diverse educational backgrounds and experiences.
• Marketing and Product Development: Tailoring marketing strategies to diverse consumer bases, such as the LGBT community and women in automotive purchasing decisions.
• Risk Mitigation: Reducing legal risks by fostering inclusive communication and understanding diverse employee needs.

Notable Quote:

“When you're thinking about diversity, equity inclusion as it links to the business... if you have managers that don't understand people skills across generations, across genders, across geographies, well, they could use language that feels normal to them but harsh to someone else.” – Donald Thompson [13:55]

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4. Addressing Criticisms and Challenges

The conversation shifts to the challenges DEI initiatives face, particularly the backlash and misconceptions that have led some organizations to pivot away from traditional DEI frameworks.

Key Points:

• Negative Narratives: DEI has been co-opted into narratives of quotas and political agendas, detracting from its foundational goals.
• Leadership Hesitation: Fear among leaders about making missteps can lead to superficial or ineffective DEI practices.
• Rebranding Efforts: Some companies are renaming DEI initiatives to terms like "psychological safety" or "employee engagement" to better align with business objectives and reduce resistance.

Notable Quote:

“Psychological safety is because they're in the manufacturing environment and when employees don't feel empowered to speak up, safety violations happen.” – Donald Thompson [32:32]

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5. The Future of DEI Initiatives

Looking ahead, Thompson offers an optimistic perspective on the evolution of DEI, despite the current cultural and political challenges. He emphasizes the importance of continuous dialogue, education, and adaptability in fostering genuinely inclusive environments.

Key Points:

• Sustained Effort: DEI must be linked to business success metrics to ensure its perseverance and integration.
• Community Building: Encouraging positive interactions and understanding among diverse groups can alleviate cultural tensions.
• Empowerment Through Success: By excelling in their respective fields, individuals can amplify their voices and drive meaningful change.

Notable Quote:

“Most people want to get along with others. And I think most people are getting tired of being mad at their neighbor.” – Donald Thompson [43:16]

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6. Practical Advice for Organizations and Individuals

Thompson provides actionable strategies for both organizations and individuals aiming to enhance their DEI efforts.

Key Points:

• For Organizations:

  • Link DEI initiatives to tangible business outcomes like increased productivity and reduced legal risks.
  • Foster inclusive leadership by training managers to understand and support diverse employee needs.
  • Encourage open dialogue and create safe spaces for employees to express their perspectives.

• For Individuals:

  • Support diverse businesses and entrepreneurs to help bridge the wealth gap.
  • Cultivate curiosity and open-mindedness to better understand differing viewpoints.
  • Practice empathy and grace in daily interactions to build stronger, more inclusive communities.

Notable Quote:

“Be open to listening to an alternative point of view. I don't have to agree with your point of view, but if I hear and understand your point of view, then I can see through your lens and understand why you believe what you believe.” – Donald Thompson [46:03]

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7. Conclusion and Key Takeaways

Kim and Penn wrap up the episode by expressing gratitude for Thompson’s insights and reiterating the importance of approaching DEI with kindness, understanding, and a commitment to continuous learning. They emphasize that DEI, when correctly implemented, benefits everyone by creating more equitable and productive environments.

Key Takeaways:

• DEI is Multifaceted: It encompasses more than just representation, focusing on creating environments where everyone can thrive.
• Misconceptions Must Be Addressed: Clear communication and education are essential to dispel myths surrounding DEI.
• Link to Business Success: Demonstrating how DEI positively impacts business outcomes can garner broader support and commitment.
• Empathy and Open Dialogue: Encouraging understanding and respectful conversations is crucial for meaningful progress.

Final Notable Quote:

“If we learn from each other, we're going to grow together and it's going to be way more fun and more productive.” – Donald Thompson [48:15]

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Resources Mentioned:

• Donald Thompson's Works:
  • A CEO’s Unlikely Path to Success
  • The Inclusive Leadership Handbook
  • DonaldThompson.com
  • TheDiversityMovement.com

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This episode serves as a comprehensive guide for anyone looking to deepen their understanding of DEI, offering both theoretical insights and practical applications to foster inclusive and thriving environments.

Transcript

[Kim Holderness]

Hey, Penn, have you ever had this conversation? You meet someone, they say, hey, how you doing? And without thinking, you just reply, I'm good. You?

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, of course. Right.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, I decided when I say I'm good, I want to meet it. That's why I'm using Headspace.

[Penn Holderness]

Great. So Headspace is the app that helps me and 100 million people with their mental health and well being with guided meditations, mindfulness practices, breathing and calming exercises, and so much more.

[Kim Holderness]

It reduces stress, boosts your mood, and helps you sleep better. By combining scientifically proven benefits of medit and mindfulness with modern practices.

[Penn Holderness]

The app has these customized personalized approaches to help you navigate through all of life's moments, whether they're big or small.

[Kim Holderness]

If you're a total newbie or have been meditating for years, there's always content for what you're going through.

[Penn Holderness]

And if you're short on time, Headspace has these quick on the go programs that help you get in the right headspace in just a few minutes.

[Kim Holderness]

With more than 1000 hours of mindfulness exercises, it's got the most complete meditation library I've ever seen. I can feel my mental health getting a boost by taking a few minutes minutes every day, listening to the programming, and reframing my relationship with stress and anxiety.

[Penn Holderness]

So feel good and mean it when you say it. For a limited time, get Headspace for free for 60 days. Just go to headspace.com holderness Yes. H E A-S-P-A C E.com holderness to unlock all of Headspace. Free for 60 days.

[Kim Holderness]

Headspace.com holderness hey, Penn, have you ever had this conversation? You meet someone, they say, hey, how you doing? And without thinking, you just reply, I'm good. You?

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, of course. Right.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, I decided when I say I'm good, I want to meet it. That's why I'm using Headspace. Great.

[Penn Holderness]

So Headspace is the app that helps me and 100 million people with their mental health and well being with guided meditations, mindfulness practices, breathing and calming exercises, and so much more.

[Kim Holderness]

It reduces stress, boosts your mood, and helps you sleep better by combining scientifically prov benefits of meditation and mindfulness with.

[Penn Holderness]

Modern practices, the app has these customized personalized approaches to help you navigate through all of life's moments, whether they're big or small.

[Kim Holderness]

If you're a total newbie or have been meditating for years, there's always content for what you're going through.

[Penn Holderness]

And if you're short on time, Headspace has these quick on the go programs that help you get in the right headspace in just a few minutes.

[Kim Holderness]

With more than 1000 hours of mindfulness exercises, it's got the most complete meditation library I've ever seen. I can feel my mental health getting a boost by taking taking a few minutes every day, listening to the programming, and reframing my relationship with stress and anxiety.

[Penn Holderness]

So feel good and mean it when you say it. For a limited time, get Headspace for free for 60 days. Just go to headspace.com holderness yes H-E-A--S-P-A c e.com holderness to unlock all of.

[Kim Holderness]

Headspace free for 60 days headspace.com holderness Penn. You feeling that spring travel itch?

[Penn Holderness]

Oh, you know it. I'm looking outside, the sun is shining. It's perfect out.

[Donald Thompson]

I'm ready to head to the beach.

[Kim Holderness]

Vacation season is almost upon us and this year I'm treating myself to luxe upgrades I deserve with Quince's high quality travel essentials at fair prices.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, like the lightweight European linen styles from $30 washable silk tops and comfy lounge sets with premium luggage options and stylish tote bags that carry it all.

[Kim Holderness]

The best part? All Quint's Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar. By partnering directly with top factories, Quint cuts the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us.

[Penn Holderness]

And Quint only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes, which we both love.

[Kim Holderness]

I'm definitely going to be grabbing an Italian leather pouch travel set to upgrade my makeup for our next vacay.

[Penn Holderness]

And I may need to grab like a new toiletry bag as well. For your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from quints. Go to quince.comholderness for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order.

[Kim Holderness]

That's Q U I-n c e.comholderness to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comholderness.

[Donald Thompson]

Now I'm not special. I have my moments of doing it wrong. I'm just saying we have to have that love and empathy and grace because we're all living life for the first time.

[Kim Holderness]

Hey everybody, I'm Kim Holderness.

[Penn Holderness]

And I'm Pen Holderness and you guys. It's the Holderness Family podcast.

[Kim Holderness]

You're very cheery.

[Penn Holderness]

It is. I am. Well, I am cheery. You know, this is generally a cheery, fun, laugh filled podcast and there will be some laughs in this podcast, sometimes we tackle subjects that are very silly and today our topic is not silly. It's coming from a place of love and curiosity.

[Kim Holderness]

Though we're going to go deeper on this podcast on something that Penn genuinely, this, Penn set this all up, genuinely curious about, which is what is diversity, equity and inclusion and just getting a better education about this.

[Penn Holderness]

To be clear. I, I've. I know what it is but like what's up with DEI now? More specific question. I, I feel like I've lost my, my compass on it because all of the, the learning and training that I did several years ago on this, I, I just feel like I'm not seeing very much of it and I also feel like it's become right.

[Kim Holderness]

We dig into that with the wonderful, wonderful Donald Thompson and listen, we love this space and last year you probably heard me talking about how I wanted to create a middle space, like a place where I could learn from my neighbors who we vote differently, we believe different on different topics. But I want to learn why. Because when it comes down to it, like you've probably got a good reason you feel this way.

[Penn Holderness]

Right. So you don't want to disagree with them. You want to listen.

[Kim Holderness]

I want to listen and I'm not talking about. I wanted to create this like a newsroom of sorts to take the daily news. This is the dream Daily News. Tell me what it is and then tell me why the news channel on the right is screaming one thing and why the headlines on the left are so completely different and just tell me.

[Penn Holderness]

Why, why, why they're able to be such different headlines on the same exact fact that is happening. Yeah. Same event.

[Kim Holderness]

I did find this website and this is obviously not sponsored is called Ground News and they sort of aggregate news pieces and they use AI to determine if it leans left, right or kind of sits in the center. And you can kind of toggle to see the statements that are more left and right, but it's not telling me why.

[Penn Holderness]

Right.

[Kim Holderness]

Like the history of it. So that was something I was really motivated on at the end of last year. And then Lola started getting college acceptances and life took over and our house had to get. We had to move out of our house house for a while.

[Penn Holderness]

Sure did.

[Kim Holderness]

So as with all good intentions, it just sort of like fizzled out. But if, if somebody has is creating a space like that, I want to work for you or invest in you like my time, not my money because we're going to college again. So like I want to, I'm just craving that.

[Penn Holderness]

You know what I always think about when you talk about this?

[Kim Holderness]

What?

[Penn Holderness]

Like, you and I went to Charleston, like, four years ago, and we were walking around, like, the historic homes district, like, right by the water on Bay street, and there was. There was a woman with a. A Black Lives Matter poster that was.

[Kim Holderness]

Holding up a flag.

[Penn Holderness]

Did she have a flag?

[Kim Holderness]

They were flags. Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

One of them was a flag. The woman, I think, had a Black Lives Matter sign.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, maybe. Right.

[Penn Holderness]

That she was holding up. And it was a culdesac. Right. And directly on the other side of the culdesac was a guy in a truck holding a Confederate flag. And they were looking right at each.

[Kim Holderness]

Other, and it was like a twers protest.

[Penn Holderness]

No one else was there. Yeah, he had the flag, she had the sign. And eventually walked up and. And spoke to the woman, and we're like, this is really interesting.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

Like you. It's just you and him. He's like, yeah, that's Vern. And I was like, okay. So she's like, yeah, on the weekends, we, you know, come out and they carpool, you guys. No, he's like, one time his car broke down, so I gave him a ride. And so she likes the guy a ride. She's like, because I believe in his ability to display what he wants, but he respects me. And we just stand here. They just stand there with their signs. They don't talk to each other. They stand on opposite sides of this cul de sac. And I. I don't know why that is.

[Kim Holderness]

It was charming, right?

[Penn Holderness]

A little bit.

[Kim Holderness]

No, I. I was under the impression they did have conversations.

[Penn Holderness]

I think they did sometimes. Probably when they got. Okay, sorry. But they also just kept showing up, and it didn't sound like there were ever a whole lot of other people there.

[Kim Holderness]

No, it was just the two of us. It's just the two of them.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

No. But it just goes to show that there can still be respect and there could still be that. So no one does this better than Donald Thompson.

[Penn Holderness]

Correct. Donald Thompson is the CEO and co founder of the Diversity Movement, a fantastic organization committed to prioritizing inclusive leadership through proven and effective training in the workplace. Before starting the Diversity movement, he built an extraordinary career creating and leading companies spanning diverse industries, from tech sales and IT leadership to digital marketing. Donald is the author of A CEOs Unlikely Path to Success and the Inclusive Leadership Handbook. He hosts the podcast High Octane Leadership and is a keynote speaker. Donald also serves on several other advisory boards. So here to talk to us all about diversity Equity and inclusion. Donald T.

[Kim Holderness]

Donald Thompson.

[Donald Thompson]

Thanks. Thanks, Penn.

[Penn Holderness]

Donald Thompson, just to make it clear.

[Donald Thompson]

Have you been waiting Thompson, D.T. whatever you say with a smile, I'm into it.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, wait, have you been waiting on to use that?

[Penn Holderness]

I just wanted to see if it landed and like, yeah, I got a good chuckle out of Donald. Kim talked about it some in the introduction. I want to just chime in and say that I feel the need right now to have just a refresher course on dei. I've heard it so many times in the last six months, it's starting to sound like a buzzword. I feel like it's starting to lose some mean in the minds of like not only everyone else, but also even me. And I, and I've, I've like you've helped me become really, really good at this. But I need to be reminded again of what DEI is.

[Donald Thompson]

Yeah, I appreciate the question. And other. I appreciate being here with friends, but also the opportunity to share this information and insight and diversity, equity, inclusion, simply. Right. Diversity, equity, inclusion. I want to talk about it a little different. I want to talk about what it's not and then we'll talk about what it is. Because the narrative in today's landscape is really reframing it. That's a little unfortunate, but it's true. So it's not quotas, it's not just for black people. It's not lowering standards. So now what is dei? DEI is when a corporation says, you know what if you're a new parent, let's really look at our parental leave policies so both the mom and the dad can spend time in bonding with that new baby. DEI is, are you creating an environment in your organization where there's equal pay for the same work? When you're looking in your organization and you're recruiting, we're not talking about lowering standards, but what we are talking about is increasing access. Are you creating an organization to where you're not just recruiting from the same universities, but you widen the net? So you really are creating a merit based hiring system because you've actually widened the net so that more people have access to that opportunity. Diversity, equity, inclusion has been hijacked to mean a woke narrative, a narrative of quotas, a narrative of a lot of things that it's really not in practice. And what it's done is it's taken people off center for the goodness that we all need in our places of employment, which is a better workplace for all. There's really no downside. If you're thinking about diversity, equity Inclusion as it links to the business. When you're thinking about creating your marketing and your ad spend that's targeting the LGBT community that spends over one trillion doll dollars a year in terms of their buying power. And it's more than that, but it's, that's at a minimum when you're thinking about creating marketing that is more exclusive to women. When you're building a car, if you talk to General Motors, Ford, Chrysler, more and more women are making that significant decision about vehicles in the household. So cars are designed with women in mind. That is inclusion. And what we've done is we've allowed the media, we've allowed the political narrative to create a space to where people that are like minded, like us, feel like we have some really need to disagree. When the reality is if someone is blind or low vision, shouldn't we build websites that they can use as well? That's dei because people that are blind or low vision also buy things, they shop. And so when you're thinking about equity, when you're thinking about diversity, when you're thinking about inclusion, let's not get confused about the loud narrative in the noise of the political crowd. Let's just talk about what it does for our daily lives and why it matters. The last thing I'll say on this to try to keep it super simple for folks. A lot of people enjoy the game of golf. And even if you don't, you understand it enough to know this. It's hard to play the game of golf well with one club. That's why you have 14 clubs in the bag. Because in different situations, each club has a role, each club is different, but it all contributes to having a successful round of golf.

[Kim Holderness]

I don't play golf, but that makes total sense.

[Penn Holderness]

I got it.

[Kim Holderness]

I will say I grew up. My aunt was diagnosed with polio when she was like a year old. So she's paralyzed from always down. She has since passed. But I lived my young life looking at all the places where she couldn't go because she was in a wheelchair. And so now she passed about 10 years ago. But it was a big deal when the building put an elevator in and the new buildings had to have a way to get because they were so many places she could not go. I. And then as a woman, I always took DEI again, I wasn't getting jobs because I was a woman. In fact, I would say quite the opposite.

[Donald Thompson]

The opposite, right.

[Kim Holderness]

But I think I, I think I, you know, they like, I was just, I was able to interview for a job that previously they would not have offered an interview for. I didn't get all the jobs, like at all. But so I, I get a little offended thinking that the things I've accomplished accomplish it because I'm a woman. Like I've been handed these things. Like that's where, like to me, it, what, what, what DEI isn't, is, that's the. Been the misconception. That's not actually a question, Donald, but like, what are some of the other initiatives? Like, what are the, some of the misconceptions about what it is?

[Donald Thompson]

A lot of times when we think about misconceptions, a lot of folks really repeat what they hear the loudest. And so a lot of the misconceptions is that DEI doesn' all of us. And I'll give a very powerful story. I was talking to an executive $7 billion organization. This gentleman was a very strong evangelical Christian and he said, where's my place in this DEI discussion? When we're having a discussion around a lot of these issues, I feel like I'm being attacked. And so what we talked about and what was really cool is we had space to share and we had space to open a dialogue. Honest and candidly, DEI is not meant to change you. It's meant to elevate your understanding of others so that your workplace can be more productive. And if you think about it with that framing now, all of a sudden it's much easier because you're not looking at feeling attacked because of your differences. We just want you to be a little bit more open minded of the people that you work with and talk with. There's a neurodiverse population in our workplace, in our lives today. And a lot of times I'll break it down, down very simply. I'm a very quick study. I can assimilate a lot of information very quickly. I can wing it in meetings. Some people need an agenda a day before so that they can do their prep work so they feel comfortable speaking up in a meeting that they're having. But if you don't structure the meeting properly, a certain subset of the people in your organization don't feel comfortable speaking up because they didn't get a chance to prepare. That doesn't make them less smart as an introvert or somebody that learns differently. It means that they process information in a different way. And if we don't take those things into consideration, then we're not creating a better workplace for all, which is ultimately the goal of what we're trying to do.

[Penn Holderness]

How does the story end for the evangelical Christian billionaire you spoke to.

[Donald Thompson]

So one of the things that was really powerful is when we expanded the conversation to thinking differently about others but not being attacked. One of the things this gentleman did is he said, I'm going to think about this in a new way. I'm going to participate and engage. And I appreciate Don being heard because a lot of times when we have something critical about dei, we feel some kind of pushback is that we're not a good person or we're a racist or different things like that. No, somebody didn't package the information in a way that you could understand and act on it in a powerful way. A lot of the critique is not incorrect. Some of the hardcore naysayers. I'm not really talking about that. I'm talking about people that would like to understand, that are curious, that are okay debating ideas. We don't want to leave any of that discussion on the table because we want to make sure that we're focused on the inclusion component. And so that executive and I have developed a good friendship. We stay in touch. I'm a sounding board for some of the things. He just didn't want his beliefs to be misinterpreted either, and he wanted a seat at the table for things that he was raised and what he believed. And so by finding that openness and that common ground of a dialogue, we were able to move forward in a really powerful way. So thank you, Penn, for having me wrap that around.

[Kim Holderness]

So what, let's. Let's just, like, unwrap it. What are some of the critiques that you think are valid?

[Donald Thompson]

I appreciate the space. Right. One of the things that happens a lot, and especially I'm coming from more of a business lens, one of the reasons we created the diversity movement was, was to link diversity, equity, inclusion to quality business outcomes. There are many folks that bring to the table in the business construct a social justice perspective. Right. That is fine and good and has its place. But when we're thinking about how to win at work, we need to create better attachment to how diversity, equity, inclusion creates a better business, makes you money, saves you money, reduces your risk. Let me use an example very specifically of reducing your risk. It is a very litigious environment these days. So if you have managers that don't understand people skills across generations, across genders, across geographies, well, they could use language that feels normal to them but harsh to someone else. Why not mitigate lawsuits by teaching your managers inclusive language? It is a way that they can communicate with a more broad group. Of employees so they can lead better. But then secondarily, you reduce your list your risk of negative outcomes in the workplace because you're being more thoughtful. So that's the risk component in terms of making your more money. Let's look at the marketing component. And how about having your marketing reviewed by a more diverse group of people so that you don't unintentionally offend someone in a marketing campaign that was well intentioned but lands wrong because nobody in the room looked differently so that you could really think about how that information was going to land on a global stage. Those are things that we talk to CEOs about and they immediately get it because we're not trying to drive dei which they don't fully understand. We build from the bottom up with solving problems that they have or opportunities that they want to go after.

[Penn Holderness]

How important is it to teach DEI from a place of love and understanding? I'm only saying that because, like, some of my favorite, most memorable times of learning about how to be better at this have been when I screwed up and I had no idea what I was doing wrong because I'm 50 and I was raised like, I think I was in a room and I said, why don't we all sit Indian style? And this was like, I think it was like 10 years. It was a while. It was 10 years ago and I've just said it since I was a kid. And there was a, like crisscross applesauce babe. There was someone in the room who.

[Kim Holderness]

Was like, hey, hey, friend.

[Penn Holderness]

You're not gonna believe this. I just learned that that's probably offensive and we got to laugh about it and move on because just some of this that I used to say as a kid, it's like, it's gonna take some disentangling for all of us, right?

[Donald Thompson]

I think that's right. And whether it's looking at it with love, empathy, let's just realize we' and we're all living life for the first time, right? And so if we think about it from that perspective, the way I like to talk about it is practice without penalty. And so in correcting someone, right, you can be gracious by giving them a new way to think about what they're saying. Yeah, I was in a meeting and this is many years ago, but the story is still really unique and powerful. And early in my career, I didn't have any success behind me. And it was early in my sales career, career, big conference room, glass, big leather chairs, all this million dollar deal. And one of the folks was frustrated with. With how the negotiations were going and said, you all are being Indian givers.

[Penn Holderness]

There was a whole Seinfeld about that, but yet. Right.

[Donald Thompson]

And the room, like. And I. Yeah. And the room went silent and everybody looked at me and I. I'm not an indigenous. Like, But. But my heart, my whole body heated up and I'm like, what do I do in this moment if I blow this meeting up? I don't have a backup plan. I kind of need this commission. Right. Like, there's just all this stuff running through my head. And I took 30 seconds before I responded, which is a long time. I think 15 seconds will do. And I said with a smile, I said, you know, I'll just use John. I said, john, I don't remember my history that way. I mean, if anything, it was white man's giver. Right? Oh, and then I said it just like that.

[Penn Holderness]

Right? And.

[Donald Thompson]

But I smiled. I'm smiling the whole time. And the room is silent now for like a minute. And then John says to me, don, until you replayed that back to me, I had absolutely no idea how that landed. Can we get back to the meeting? But can we talk offline? And I apologize. And I said, John, absolutely.

[Kim Holderness]

10 out of 10.

[Donald Thompson]

And we got back into the meeting and then we took a walk around the block and we just talked. Right. But if I was. Was overly a jerk, if I was mad, if I was wearing everything that happened to black and brown people on my shoulder, now I'm blowing up relationships versus having an opportunity to create a bigger and broader narrative. Now I'm not special. I have my moments of doing it wrong. I'm just saying we have to have that love and empathy and grace because we're all living life for the first time.

[Kim Holderness]

I love that and I love that story. And John, I know it's a code word. He did a great job. Yeah. Okay. So wiping DEI and all that, it includes because I think, I think there's a. There are a lot of people who don't understand what it includes because we have advised folks just anecdotally like, how can I make my workplace better for my adhd? And Penn has shared tips, but that required them to go to their human resources and get accommodations. And that's dei, right?

[Donald Thompson]

Yes.

[Kim Holderness]

So. So not having it and not making accommodations for people bad. Is there, is there a situation. Have we. Have we over corrected? And is there. I mean, I don't know how it's too much like dei. Is there. Is there a situation where we've over, correct, corrected. And now it's created this really harmful narrative like why are we so here all of a sudden?

[Donald Thompson]

I got to tell you, and this isn't political, this is factual. When you're trying to win a political race, you take anything that has a potential negative for your opponent and you drive a wedge through that consistently. That's what was done in our last election when we all slow down and sit down together and look at diversity, equity, inclusion, but strip away the acronyms. And just what do people need to be successful at work? Right? If I go to work and I'm a knowledge worker, I need a computer, right? If I'm going to work and I'm a construction worker, I need the appropriate equipment to do that job. Let's just keep it simple, that everybody doesn't need the same size of equipment, same size screen, same size of equipment, of a, of a, of a toolbox. But that doesn't mean, because we don't all fit in that same cookie cutter box that we can't do great work. So accommodations means we're doing some kind of favor for someone versus an accommodation, unlocking the productivity of that individual to be able to do great work at the job. And that's what we're really trying to do. We're trying to unlock, right, the excellence that's in with each employee that you have. And in order to, to do that, we have to recognize that everyone is not the same.

[Penn Holderness]

You mentioned the DEI isn't quotas. I, I believe that to be true as well. I'm just, I'm trying to. And you also talked about how we've kind of gone off center. What is a good, healthy center when it comes to a company where you're, you're not worried about quotas, where you're building a diverse workforce and you're also able to make sure standards and accountability are upheld.

[Donald Thompson]

So it's a great question. It's a deep question. It's one of the things that I encourage CEOs to do is look back at your mission, values and objectives. And most organizations serve a broad subset of our population. If you're in the car business, if you're in the entertainment business, if you just look at the audience that you all serve, right, that you make laugh, that makes your heart warm, that you teach and educate in a beautiful way, that you have fun with, with, right. Your audience isn't all the same. And so that means some of your videos are going to reach different segments of that audience and you take painstaking care to deliver that fun, those jokes, those different things with an area and an air of given and caring. If we teach managers and leaders to be inclusive leaders and lead with thoughtfulness, lead with care first, you can be tough on people. You can grow standards. If somebody misses a sign sales target, you can say, you know what? If you miss the sales target again, you're going to get fired. Or you can say, hey, listen, we missed that sales target. Let's unpack why we didn't get there. I want to understand what we can do better as a manager to help you get there, what you can do better as a team member and what infrastructure we need. I want to interrupt, please.

[Penn Holderness]

So just because the example you just gave, are you saying that oftentimes leaders are afraid of trying to correct those who are part of a dei, not even an initiative? Like, is it tougher to talk to those people 100%.

[Donald Thompson]

Let me give you an example. Let's use generations for a different thing. Right? We're at our age bracket is what I'll say. We're in a similar bracket.

[Penn Holderness]

You sure are.

[Donald Thompson]

We grew up in a command and control environment. You all have a lot of experience in TV and news and different things. And if we think about the language that's used in that environment, the deliberate, you know, kind of iron fist. Right. Of general managers and different things, people don't care how you felt.

[Kim Holderness]

No.

[Penn Holderness]

Right.

[Donald Thompson]

And then with those. And when those lights came on, you smile, you get it done. Don't care if you're tired, don't care if your kid's sick. You got a job to do, you do that job. Right. That's generationally. You can't talk to Gen Z millennial employees like that. And when they will gently get up and leave, write you a bad review, go on Glassdoor and get all of their friends to troll you and your company for the next six years because you had one bad meeting with them. Right? So you have to think differently. And leaders are afraid, so they're on eggshells because they think. And we've created this narrative, you asked, what could DEI have done better? We've created a narrative that you have to know this perfect vocabulary. You have to say everything perfectly right. If you make a mistake, you're going to get canceled. How do you operate in a high octane environment where you have to be perfect with every word you say? Say? I think you have to be thoughtful. I think you have to know how to apologize when you're wrong? I think you have to create an environment where Mistakes are okay as long as we're working together to correct them. But you do see leaders that are being more quiet and on the sidelines because there's a price for getting it wrong in our society. And that's unfortunate.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, I've definitely heard some people say, well, I just don't know what to say anymore. You can't say anything anymore.

[Donald Thompson]

It's. It is an unfortunate component of the way things rolled out and not effective. Because once somebody pulls themselves out of a situation and clams up and are quiet, guess what? We don't have an inclusive environment that is no different of the leader doing it versus we've all been in rooms where someone's an introvert versus an extrovert and no one gives that introvert space to contribute. That's inclusion. In the meeting I was in. I won't name drop. I'm very fortunate. I've worked with a lot of large organizations and C suite organizations, but I was working with a very large financial institution last week and their chief leadership team, so their cfo, their coo, their chief marketing officer, all of the C level titles in the room, and one of the newer members of that leadership team was just kind of really quiet. And the chief administrative officer said, joe, it feels like you have something to say. We're all kind of talking a little bit over each other. Let's all give Joe the floor. And he contributed two to three minutes of things, but he had to be invited because he was a newer member on the team. Little more on the introverted side. But what he added to the conversation was powerful. What I'm trying to share is inclusion is in action, not the theoretical opponent. And it's really about how do we treat one another in our day to day interactions. And doing that with love and compassion doesn't mean we're not trying to win and grow our business and make money and take care of our families. It just means we can do it with a little bit more class and style.

[Kim Holderness]

You work in private companies, so they can in theory do what they want to do. A lot of public spaces, those initiatives, they're being cut. What does that mean in those spaces? Like what does that look like specifically?

[Donald Thompson]

Yeah, there's three kind of groupings. Right. There's a third of the companies that I see that are really cutting DEI and just we're not doing that anymore. Right. And they're, they're making a hard stance. There's a third of the companies that are saying, wait a minute, here are the elements we believe understand and want to continue. And we're going to pivot on the naming of what we call things.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay.

[Donald Thompson]

We're going to change the narrative a little bit from DEI to inclusion to well, being or. And belonging at work. Right. To building a highly engaged workforce. A term that we're using a lot is we're going to focus on employee engagement and that's that middle third. And then there's a third of champions that said, you know what? DEI is something we believe. It's working for us and nobody's going to tell us to stop until we think something, something's wrong with it and we're good to go. And there's the apples, the J.P. morgan's of the world. So it's cutting across those groupings that I'm seeing in businesses.

[Kim Holderness]

I have heard, and this is just something I read online, is they've kept the programs but just renamed them. And I don't know if that's better or worse.

[Donald Thompson]

That's a good point. Whether it's better or worse, it's complex. At the end of the day, I'm not judging businesses for their decisions because they have stakeholders, shareholders, revenue goals to meet. Right. And if they're being attacked and don't know how to manage that attack and their share price is going down. Right. That affects the livelihoods of people as well. And so I really empathize with executives they're having to manage that.

[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, while most of those podcasts are made and hosted by adults, we found one that's for kids. Made by kids and hosted by kids.

[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

You know we talk a lot about ADHD in our podcast and one really important thing you can do to thrive with ADHD is regulate your nervous system.

[Penn Holderness]

Absolutely. When people get dysregulated, even people without adhd. Actually Kim, it can snowball and make regular life, well, difficult. Well, Wild Interest is actually designed to help regulate kids nervous systems. There's calm music and thoughtful subject matters and the vocal tone and cadence are all made with the same result in calm and happy kids.

[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Penn Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Kim Holderness]

That's Holderness to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply CT terms for details. Does DEI just simply need a rebrand?

[Donald Thompson]

It does in many ways in many organizations. Because you know what, if I'm going to talk to a CEO and they're just stuck on a negative narrative around DEI, what is the chances that that CEO is going to write me a check for $100,000 to help them with the culture? And I'm arguing with them. Yeah, about why DEI is good, how wrong you are. Like, like who pays money for an argument like that in business? Right? You pay for collaboration, creativity, productivity. If I go to that same CEO and this has happened in the CEO I was working with in Charlotte Multi Global Company and we talked about psychological safety. The reason that CEO loved that phrase, psychological safety is because they're in the manufacturing environment and when employees don't feel empowered to speak up, safety violations happen. Happen. When you have safety issues in manufacture, you have people are hurt, you have lawsuits, you have fines. So this Leader was very in tune with me when I talked about psychological safety and what leaders can do to create that, because he could map that conversation to how he makes money or reduces his risk. And that is an important thing that DEI leaders, in my opinion, because many came out of hr, came out of social justice organizations, did not and were not trained on the language of business so that we could craft a narrative around DEI that very nicely linked with the goals of the C Suite. And then once you have momentum on something, once you see a return on investment on something, people want to do more of it. And that's just human nature.

[Penn Holderness]

So you talked about arguments that you have with people about, but DEI disagreements. One of the most popular ones you've probably heard before is that those who are protected under diversity, equity, inclusion, minorities, women, people with neurodiversities like myself, they, they, they feel truly protected, they don't have to work as hard, and they know they're not going to get fired.

[Donald Thompson]

Yeah, I, I don't even have arguments like that, Penn. I just kind of smile, okay? I, I, I just really look back at the person. It's like, like, let's really talk about examples to where underperformer gets to stay in this corporate environment, right? It's just not true. Right. CEOs do what they need to do to build their business, right? And whether it is Elon Musk writing a crude email to thousands of employees and just walking them out the door, guess what? He did it. He's a CEO. He owns the business. He did it. So a lot of, so a lot of times I challenge C Suite leaders with what is the business reality or what are you trying to share with me? To move away from something that may be uncomfortable for you to do, right? Either way is fine with me. But I actually try to stay away from conversations where people don't want to hear it and try to move the dialogue to what's moving them, what's concerning them, what they're afraid of, and if we can have that dialogue. I have a lot of pretty awesome conversations, quite frankly, even if they don't start out amazing, right? Because the reason that I'm in the room, the reason, you know, that, that I get a lot of opportunity to speak with folks is I have pretty thick skin. I've heard a lot, I've seen a lot, and I'm difficult to offend. And so I give people space just to speak their truth, and I help them move forward based on how they're they're leaning. One phrase I told Somebody, they were like, well, Donna, can I be open with you? I said, look, I'm a black man in America. I've heard a lot of things. And what you're getting ready to say, that you're on Eggshell Hills. You'll be okay. Just chat with me.

[Penn Holderness]

Just bring it on. Let's have some. What do you got?

[Donald Thompson]

Just have some fun with it. And usually we do. It's. It's. Usually it's better than not.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay, go ahead. Okay, let's look into the crystal ball. What do you see in our future as initiatives are being cut and, you know, in public spaces and in private spaces, what do you see in our future?

[Donald Thompson]

So a couple things. And again, I'll just talk about the realities. Right. So one of the things that's happening or will happen, right. Is there's going to be a significant reduction or cut in the Department of Education. Whether you're Republican, Democrat, doesn't matter. That is on track. Right. Of one of the significant cuts. An impact of that is folks that are lower income, their kids are going to have less support in the educational process. That's an impact. When we think about some of our immigration reform and different things that are happening. Right. Rightly or wrongly, whatever. You agree. Well, if people are afraid to go work on that farm in Iowa, go on that farm in Arkansas because they're concerned about being deported, that farmer's expenses are going to go up. So there is going to be an economic impact to what people are talking about. Culture wars and different things. We just can't be naive about that. What I think will happen, however, and keeps me optimistic even in a land of chaos, is I think that most people want to get along with others. And I think most people are getting tired of being mad at their neighbor.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Donald Thompson]

I think people are running out of steam being mad at their neighbor on corner issues versus all the things that we agree with, which we want our kids to be safe in school. School. We want to be able to work and educate our kids and family. We want to save some money for retirement. We want to be able to afford and buy a house. Right. If we think about those things, I think that whether we call it dei, whether we call it culture wars, I think they're going to run out of steam in three or four months and people are going to realize, wait a minute, my neighbor Carl's okay. If my lawnmower is broke, he's going to loan me his. We may have different politics, but let's focus on the things that we need to to build our community. And that optimism I've got to have, right, to keep running into these headwinds. I am. And so I'm going to keep that.

[Kim Holderness]

So how do we do that? How do we participate in that?

[Donald Thompson]

So we talked about this even before we hit record. Let's just look at where we shop. Let's just look at the organizations that we support. Here's the thing that I thought about the other day. Boycott this, boycott that. Okay, fine. If that's your lane, then do that right. Like you want to go on the. Like I'm mad at this organization. They don't believe xyz. How about we think about shopping with folks that are different than us, that still give us the same quality we expect. But let's expand the number of contractors we look at. If we're going to add an addition on our house, let's expand the number of chefs that we look at. If we're going to have a gathering at our home and we want to have that catered, if we're going to go into a boutique and we're going to get a new pair of shoes or purse, why don't we look in downtown Durham and see if there are different ownership groups and companies not sacrificing the quality of what we want. But let's just look at where we spend. Because entrepreneurship is one of the critical ways to drive down the wealth gap. The second thing is we have to be open minded enough to question the things we hear. And this is my big advice because we're all driven narratives where people have an ulterior motive to, to why they're telling us information. And most times we're just in receive mode and we don't question what I would hope that your listeners that we would all do better is question what we're hearing. Does that make sense? How does it impact and by asking more questions before making statements. We're open to learn and if we learn from each other, we're going to grow together and it's going to be way more fun and more productive. And those are the two things I, I would think about.

[Penn Holderness]

I love you could do this for a living, Donald. Wait, you do. What I love about the first thing you said is it's this. I mean you said you could talk about boycott, but instead do this. Really it's the same thing, but you're putting a more positive spin on it.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, that's right. Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

Like you are. Instead of saying I'm not going to shop it, you're going to say I'M going to shop it because of.

[Donald Thompson]

Yeah, that's exactly right. And it. Here's the, here's the thing. I think we have allowed our ability to think and process information to be outsourced to social media, to be outsourced to the government. And what I would really appreciate if more people did is just be opening, open to listening to an alternative point of view. I don't have to agree with your point of view, but if I hear and understand your point of view, then I can see through your lens and understand why you believe what you believe and find a way we can go forward. But if I don't understand or hear your point of view and I just assume negative intent because you said something that I don't agree with, that doesn't move us forward on any level, on any platform, business, our society, our churches, our music, any of that. And I think we all have the capacity to be a little bit more open and a little bit more critical about what we hear when somebody's pushing a narrative so that we can really make good, better decisions as independent thinkers.

[Kim Holderness]

So, Donald, we started the podcast I was talking about. I was really motivated at end of last year to create a space because I come from a news background that had a true. I don't like, just not unbiased because we're all biased, but kind of a filter of which it explained a middle, so to speak. So there are websites that take AI and they will say like, this is left leaning, this is right leaning. But I, I wanted to create a space of like, explain to me why the, the right is saying this and tell me why the left is saying that. And then I got really bogged down in the details and I, you know, got really busy and my daughter's applying to college and I kind of got. But like, that is what I, that's what I'm, I'm craving because I want my ideals to, I want my ideas to be challenged. Like, I want to know why I'm so passionate about this. And guess what? Like, the people who voted differently than me have really good points on some, some issues. Right? And I need to hear that.

[Donald Thompson]

And because we tune each other out and are just waiting for our turn to speak, we're not getting better.

[Kim Holderness]

Right?

[Donald Thompson]

And that's, and that's no different in my relationship with Jackie and my wife. And if, if I'm just talking, if we're talking past each other, right. That just doesn't work. Right. She needs to be listened to and heard and then she can hear an Alternative approach from me. Right. That's just the way. That's just the way that, that she's wired and built. I either learn that, accept that, realize I made this choice to be in a relationship with her and rock that way. And then what I found is when I give her that space to express, she's much more open to new ideas that I may have. If I don't follow that path, it's a little bit more friction. Well, relationships at work, relationships at our church, relationships in our community. People really want to be heard. I was talking to some Gen Z folks just about a year ago and I had 5 Gen Z emerging professionals on a panel and they said, we don't think we're right all the time, but we believe we should be hurt. That was wisdom to me as a leader and a manager of young people.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

Isn't it amazing that the government that we have created as a country, love our country, love the concept of our free government. But the ways that we elect our leaders are through a debate where you don't listen to the other person. You just clap back at whatever it is that you want to say and then. And everything else is basically yelling into a crowd of people who already agree with you. And neither of those things are the thing that you just said.

[Donald Thompson]

And to add to that, there's no path where it incentivizes Kim Holderness to run for office.

[Kim Holderness]

No.

[Donald Thompson]

Why would I want to go through that pain? Why would I want to be yelled at just because I have a certain idea? Why would I want to put my family at risk, Risk physically. And safety we've created in a government where so few people. Right. Have the apparatus that we've limited our own choices as a country. So another thing that I would say to folks that want to make a change, whatever you're doing, be successful at it. Because our society gives a larger weight in discussions to people who have succeeded in their arena independent of that arena. And so I would encourage people that want their voice to be expanded. Wherever you land, whatever you're doing, whatever you're good at, be great so that you then can take that voice and amplify it and support and help others.

[Penn Holderness]

Thank you for being my North Star when it comes to this issue and helping reorient me. I've felt very lost in the last several months and I'm just. Thank you for coming in and reminding me of all these things and showing us a way to do it through kindness. And it's just. I'm just really grateful.

[Donald Thompson]

I appreciate you All's friendship. I am not just admirers. You all motivate me. As you all are doing your thing and just continuing to grow, it is setting a chart for what can be possible. And Jackie and I are going to be doing more things together in the coming year. Her podcast, Diversity beyond the Checkbox, is now in the top 5% globally. We are the little engine that could. And we really look to you all and what you all have done as a family and as a couple. And I'm really glad to be here. Thank you for the space.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, thank you for being a friend and to Jackie as well. And if we could be a resource to you as you tried. If you want to. If you want to know where we got our Christmas jammies, I can just send you the link and you guys can do that. You'd look great in those, Donald.

[Donald Thompson]

That might get some. Some video spin right there. It might go viral for a lot of the wrong reasons.

[Penn Holderness]

Reasons.

[Kim Holderness]

You're the very best. And where. Okay. Where can people find out more about what you do and the work you do?

[Donald Thompson]

Oh, thank you so much for that space One. You can buy my book, the Inclusive Leadership Handbook. You can go to Amazon anywhere you buy books, it's available. And donaldthompson.com is my personal website. And the diversity movement.com is where we work with companies and try to help them drive their business growth through dei.

[Kim Holderness]

Awesome. Thank you so much. Love, Donald.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, just kind of. Kind of want to put him in my pocket and just pull him out whenever I need to and be like.

[Kim Holderness]

Except for he's bigger than.

[Penn Holderness]

He's probably grown man. Yeah, 100% no. But, like, he's just very useful. I can see why he's built a successful community working with incredibly important people to tackle this particular issue and the.

[Kim Holderness]

Ideal person to disagree with.

[Donald Thompson]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. I aspire to that level of. Of chill when somebody and just openness when. When you say something I don't like. Yeah, I aspire to just channel some Donald Thompson.

[Penn Holderness]

We got to get him and Carlos Whitaker together. They both have the same, like, attitude when it comes to disagreeing. That's very.

[Kim Holderness]

And they're both bald.

[Penn Holderness]

They are both bald. That wasn't wise. I wasn't saying because they both looked.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, you know, their.

[Penn Holderness]

Their vibes remind me me of each other.

[Kim Holderness]

I. I was thinking the same thing, but you know how, like, sometimes you see a tall person and you're like, hey, what's up? Like, you just talk to the tall person because they're tall.

[Penn Holderness]

So this Is true. At parties, if it's, like, really crowded and loud, like, if two tall people walk by each other, they. They don't talk. They just kind of do like a. So, hey, how you doing up there? And I swear to God, it happens all the time. I don't know why.

[Kim Holderness]

I think we should shoot a video on this. Because I saw you. We were walking through a store the other day. I think we were walking through Costco, and another tall person. And another tall person was pushing a cart, and you were pushing a cart, and you both released a hand and did, like, a nod.

[Penn Holderness]

Daddy deuces.

[Kim Holderness]

Like a nod. Wave. And I said, do you know that guy? You're like, no, he's just tall. And I'm like, oh, it's like a little secret club you're in.

[Penn Holderness]

I don't know how to explain it, except that we're in a similar, I guess, elevation.

[Kim Holderness]

But honestly, I'm a foot down here.

[Penn Holderness]

So I think it would happen if there was a girl who was my height, too, too.

[Kim Holderness]

No, I know it's not a gendered. Yeah, there's just. It's very rare that there's a girl.

[Penn Holderness]

Your height, but it does. That's so weird. I. That video would land on 3% of people.

[Kim Holderness]

I think we should do it. And I think that if you guys are still listening and you want us to do this video, I need you to hit me up and slide into my dms, which is apparently not the right thing to say. Anyway. Here we go. We love a top five.

[Penn Holderness]

Yes.

[Kim Holderness]

In our podcast. And I was curious how we were going to do a top five in this one. Anne Marie came up with a great idea. Here we go.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. So as someone who's part of the DEI crew, as a. A diverse person, top five things that offices across the world should have for people with adhd.

[Kim Holderness]

Okay. I can't wait to hear this.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay. Outside looking in this. Just missed the rankings. Chocolate microscopes.

[Kim Holderness]

What is that from? Could you always say. Okay, you always say it.

[Donald Thompson]

They.

[Penn Holderness]

They, like, gave Springfield this huge check for schools, and. And Ralph wanted chocolate microscopes, and they gave him chocolate microscopes. Sorry if anyone got that. I feel you. Yeah. Number five. Walls. Walls are great.

[Kim Holderness]

Say more.

[Penn Holderness]

More walls.

[Kim Holderness]

What do you mean?

[Penn Holderness]

Okay, so it is like, I. The open workspace is great.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

But you know how in severance, they have those little, like, cubicles, they have the dividers that you can, like, pull up that give you, like, a little bit of space. Just because of our propensity to want to. To Wander. Sometimes it's good to have that divider so that we can really like, kind of hunker down and get to work.

[Kim Holderness]

You know, I very briefly worked in one of those big open workspaces. Well, and then a newsroom. You're kind of out in the field a lot.

[Penn Holderness]

You have no choice. You're shouting across the room because you get three seconds.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. But in a more corporate environment, my issue was I'm so sensitive to sound.

[Penn Holderness]

So you're going to like number four.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, if somebody was. Was chewing carrots loudly or slurping soup and there was no divider, I would just have to stand up and walk away.

[Penn Holderness]

Anyway, so number four was a combo of noise reduction headphones and a button you can press if you need to speak to someone that will put a light up, like on their computer or nearby, which is like, oh, someone's here to speak to you.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh, oh, okay. For you. Okay, got it.

[Penn Holderness]

Like a doorbell. Like a little invisible doorbell for people which allows them to continue to focus. And then, you know, sometimes people need to talk to you. So let them talk to you.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

Number three, a recommended five minute stretch slash workout period every hour.

[Kim Holderness]

I think that would benefit everybody.

[Penn Holderness]

A lot of this stuff will benefit everybody. But this is like, stuff for us because we, like, if we sit still without releasing some of our energy, like, I think the people with ADHD might get up and literally sprint for those five minutes. Yeah. Or at least I think I would. Number two, daily top five contests. So we're really.

[Kim Holderness]

I couldn't imagine anything more terrible. But I love this about you.

[Penn Holderness]

Really good at top fives.

[Kim Holderness]

It's a fun little thing. That's a, that's a broad generalization. Not everybody with ADHD is good at the top five.

[Penn Holderness]

We're just creative. We can, we can think up stuff.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes.

[Penn Holderness]

And we're really good at contests. We like contests. So like a Fun Daily Top 5 contest. And maybe that's one of the breaks. Like, okay, here's.

[Kim Holderness]

This is why DEI is getting canceled.

[Penn Holderness]

Maybe.

[Kim Holderness]

I love it. I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

[Penn Holderness]

Also for fun. How much time did I have to come up with this?

[Kim Holderness]

Four seconds.

[Penn Holderness]

Five. Four seconds.

[Kim Holderness]

No, I'm kidding.

[Penn Holderness]

And number one, someone in management who has read ADHD is awesome or sorry to promote that or any, any book helping people better understand what it's. What it is to have ADHD and how you can make the most of them.

[Kim Holderness]

Can I. Can I tell a little secret that we are in conversations to try to make. And this is Not a secret. We've talked about wanting to make ADHD is awesome digestible for kids.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, you can tell the secret that we're talking.

[Kim Holderness]

We're trying to make it a kid's book.

[Penn Holderness]

We are trying to make it a kid's book. And it's gonna. Guys, it's gonna come out so fast.

[Kim Holderness]

Kidding. It's gonna take forever. But we're getting to tell these stories. And one of my favorite moments or several of my favorite moments from these book signings we got to do were the teachers and school staff. There was even a janitor at one of these book signings and they were buying the book. Not because they had ADHD or a loved one had adhd, but the kids in their school community did and they just wanted to learn more about it. So like heart emoji. Love people who want to know more about people that are different than them.

[Penn Holderness]

I think anyone who manages a group of people to learn anything about neurodiverse people, there is a real value to that.

[Kim Holderness]

Do you know what? I'm okay. We're gonna wrap this up soon. I've just started this podcast called Telepathy Tapes and there was this whole. There's like non verbal. They're. They're studying non verbal autistic children and how they are. I've listened to one episode like can telepathically. They can read the mind of like in some cases it's their tutor, some cases it's their nurse, some cases their mom. They could be in different rooms and they hold up a shape and the person like 20 out of 20 gets it right. So there are special like this non verbal autistic kid but can read minds. Like okay, so you know, I don't.

[Penn Holderness]

Normally believe in this stuff, but I kind of believe that's possible.

[Kim Holderness]

It was recommended to me so it might be a little woo woo for our audience, but I mean just talk about like I'm just very curious about kids especially that are dealing with neurodiversity. All kinds.

[Penn Holderness]

And that's something so much more. Yeah, love it.

[Kim Holderness]

That's so cool. Anyway, thanks for coming on this journey. Love you all. Love you for listening. See you next time. Bye. I want my dog to live a long happy life, maybe even hit 19.

[Donald Thompson]

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[Kim Holderness]

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[Donald Thompson]

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