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- [00:00]
Zach Goldbaum
Wondry subscribers can listen to new episodes of Lawless Planet early and ad free right now. Join Wondry in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. It's the winter of 2002 and Kathryn Coleman Flowers is leading a group of out of state visitors to on a tour of her home, Lowndes County, Alabama.
- [00:30]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
Lowndes county at one point was known as Bloody Lowndes because during Jim Crow the labor was controlled through violence. I knew that it was a scary place to be from and to live in if one was either a civil rights activist or of African descent.
- [00:51]
Zach Goldbaum
And Catherine is both. She's a lifelong activist and now she has a new focus Revitalize Lounge. But attracting investors hasn't been easy. So she's arranged this tour for a prominent community development activist named Bob Woodson in the hopes that he can bring some much needed investment to Lowndes. They've already seen dilapidated homes and a school still heated by a coal furnace. Students and teachers there often get sick from the ash lining the walls of the building. Now they're headed to a family compound, a last minute addition to the tour.
- [01:29]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
We were on the main highway that was paved and then we turned onto a dirt road and it was going up an incline and on that incline you could see several trailers. They were all members of the Mac Means family. Along the side of that dirt road you could see it looked like a stream of water, but it wasn't water. It wasn't. It was a different color. Like it was kind of green looking.
- [01:56]
Zach Goldbaum
It turns out to be raw sewage spilling down the hill. The Mac Means live on a compound of five white trailers. Their closest neighbor is a small country church. The area they're in is so rural that municipal sewer lines don't reach their homes. That means they have to figure out how to dump water and waste on their own. So they straight pipe it, which is a common method of disposal in Lowndes County. They run skin skinny plastic pipes from their trailers to ditches that connect to a larger lagoon about 100 yards away. But when it rains, the waste backs up and flows into the hilly landscape. The head of the Mac Means family, Odell, is in a tough spot. He tells Catherine through tears that they have a septic tank to handle the waste, but it's broken. He's been told by a judge that if he doesn't fix it or install a new one, he could be sent to jail.
- [02:52]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
I wasn't aware that one could be arrested for not having a proper septic system, and I was shocked.
- [03:00]
Zach Goldbaum
Odell and his wife have been going back and forth with a county judge. The McMeans don't have the money to pay for a new system which can cost anywhere from 6,000 to as high as $30,000. But the judge says she's worried about the health of Odell's family, especially the little kids who run free around the property. So she's threatening jail time.
- [03:19]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
I think that part of the issue was that the health department's policies put the judge in a position where she had no other choice.
- [03:28]
Zach Goldbaum
It's not just the macmeans who are getting in trouble for their waste problem. On this visit to the macmeans compound, Catherine is approached by the minister of a nearby church.
- [03:38]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
A gentleman came up to Mr. Wilson crying and told him that he needed help because he could no longer have services at his church because he didn't have a work inceptic system.
- [03:51]
Zach Goldbaum
As for Catherine's visitor, Bob Woodson, who has plenty of experience working in low income communities, the tour was an eye opener.
- [03:59]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
I remember him saying they outlawed debtors prisons in the United States, and to him it was like they were being arrested for being too poor to fix the problem.
- [04:14]
Zach Goldbaum
This trip to the McMeans has shown Catherine that business and community development alone won't fix her struggling county. She needs to address a more fundamental issue that in Lowndes county, being poor is a crime. From Wondry. I'm Zach Goldbaum and this is Lawless Planet. Each week we tell a new story about the true crimes fueling the climate crisis and the people fighting to save the planet or destroy it.
- [04:51]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
It's America's dirty secret because those that can make the changes refuse to acknowledge it because they don't see it.
- [05:12]
Zach Goldbaum
We're spending more than ever. I hate my job.
- [05:14]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
The price of everything has gone.
- [05:16]
Zach Goldbaum
AI is threatening my job.
- [05:18]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
It's crisis after crisis.
- [05:19]
Zach Goldbaum
Nothing is working out. I can't find a We're one disaster.
- [05:23]
Dr. Rogelio Mejia
Take control of change.
- [05:25]
Zach Goldbaum
I need a change.
- [05:27]
Dr. Rogelio Mejia
Disruption is the force of change.
- [05:30]
Zach Goldbaum
Stop the chaos. Stop the madness. Take control. Read James Patterson's Disrupt Everything and Win. The concept of environmental justice arose from an uncomfortable truth. In study after study, experts have shown that environmental harms like pollution and extreme heat typically hit marginalized communities the hardest. Environmental justice seeks to remedy that inequity. But what happens when instead of fixing the problem, the state punishes it? From cash bail to court fees to loitering, America has dreamed up a lot of ways to criminalize poverty. Today we're going to talk about another place. It's inside your bathroom. For many of us, when we flush our toilets or run our faucets, that's that. No more thinking about it or where it's headed. And if you're like me and you live in a city, we're connected to municipal sewer lines, so it's definitely not our problem to deal with. But that's not the case for everyone. If you live more off the grid or in the boonies, you have to figure it out yourself. Septic systems are the way people usually go, but they can cost thousands of dollars to install, and they may not even work properly, depending on your soil conditions. That's the situation for many people in Louds County, Alabama, where residents in rural areas are required by law to buy and maintain expensive septic systems. And if they can't afford it, they face the possibility of arrest. This is a story about one woman's fight for proper sanitation. It's a story not just about the haves and have nots, but about the deeper problems that fester in the fight for environmental justice, problems that for a long time, most Americans thought our country had solved. When Katherine Flowers was 10, she and her family settled in her father's home of Lowndes County, Alabama.
- [07:41]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
Everyone that lived around us was related in some way, everybody in Lowndes County's two first cousins once removed.
- [07:49]
Zach Goldbaum
She grew up in a white cinder block house in the country. All of her neighbors were clustered off a dirt road.
- [07:55]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
If you came into the area, you had to deal with all of us because we were all connected.
- [08:02]
Zach Goldbaum
One neighbor had a manual water pump, and Catherine's whole community relied on it.
- [08:06]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
When we first moved there, people didn't have indoor plumbing or water in their homes, so they would walk to Ms. Neal's house with buckets and go and get water out of the pump. It was a red pump. I'll never forget it.
- [08:21]
Zach Goldbaum
They take turns priming the pump and use the water at home and in their gardens. Kathryn grew up in the 1960s, and outhouses were the standard, but for those times she didn't want to go outside in the middle of the night. She remembers using a slop jar to relieve herself. Lowndes is in what's called the Black Belt, a region named for its dark, fertile clay soil. It's ideal for growing cotton, which is why half of Alabama's entire enslaved population was concentrated there. After the Civil War and emancipation, many of the descendants of formerly enslaved people, like Catherine's family stayed. And over the next century, the Black Belt went from being one of the wealthiest Regions in the country to one of the poorest. Racism, disenfranchisement, segregation, and exploitative labor practices all conspired to keep most of the region's black residents trapped in grinding poverty. But amidst that poverty, the black belt became one of the cradles of the civil rights movement.
- [09:23]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
Most people have heard of the Selwyn to Montgomery march. Most of the march route goes through Lowndes county.
- [09:31]
Zach Goldbaum
Catherine's parents were civil rights activists, and when she was a kid, people would often stop by to talk to her mom and dad looking for advice.
- [09:39]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
She would do all the writing and he'd do all the thinking. So whenever they had a problem, they need somebody to fill out paperwork, especially government paperwork, they would come to him, ask for advice, and she would fill it out for them. So that's why I characterized them as the jailhouse lawyers of our community.
- [09:56]
Zach Goldbaum
Catherine would often go to meetings with her parents and at first found them kind of boring. But as she got older, she followed in their footsteps. She raised awareness about educational neglect in lounge, joined the military like her father and grandfather before her, and eventually became a teacher. Her work took her all over the country, but Lowndes county drew her back.
- [10:17]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
I always ended up going back home. Home was always my first stop. At the end of the day. I'm still a country girl from Lowndes County, Alabama.
- [10:28]
Zach Goldbaum
In 2000, after her father's death, Catherine returned to Alabama to work with the NAACP on a voter empowerment project and help her home county grow economically. She's going to groundbreaking ceremonies for new industrial plants and meeting with national leaders to bring more opportunities to the area.
- [10:46]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
I was a consultant, but my role was to try to bring economic opportunity to Lowndes county. I've always been a great networker. I was always connecting people.
- [10:56]
Zach Goldbaum
But no businesses want to set up shop where the infrastructure is crumbling or non existent.
- [11:02]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
So the economic paradigms around who gets access to growth and can thrive are the ones that already have the access and the ones trying to get the access will not get it. It's harder. The system is designed to help those that have and was not designed to help those that don't have or those that are trying to climb up that ladder.
- [11:28]
Zach Goldbaum
As she's networking and learning about the issues of the county, she meets. The Mac means in 2002, the family criminalized for being too poor to have a functioning septic system. A septic system consists of underground tanks that collect wastewater from people's homes. It's then separated, treated, and slowly released into the soil. But they're expensive. So a lot of people resort to the cheaper alternative, straight piping. But that can lead to waste spreading in yards. And when that happens, county health officials cite residents for not having an approved sewage disposal system. And that's exactly what happened to the Mac Min. In December 2001, they're hauled into the Lowndes county courthouse to stand trial before district court judge Terry Bozeman. She has a special environmental court to handle residents who've been cited for septic issues. The Mac Means have been before a few times over the years. Each time, she pushes them to get their sewage system figured out. And now judge Boseman is losing her patience. O' Dell tells her he's tried everything, but I can't come up with nothing. The judge gives them two months to solve the problem before facing eviction. And the Macmeans aren't alone. By the spring of 2002, there are 37 families in Lowndes county who've been cited by the health department for improper sanitation systems. There have been at least 14 arrests in the past three years alone. One of those arrests is a grandmother named Juanita Reese. She spent four days in jail because she didn't have a septic system. Another, Antonio Hinson, has a warrant out for his arrest because a judge ordered him to install a septic system for $6,000. He ran out of money. In the process of putting it in, Katherine meets with the judges to convince them not to punish people for this. In Antonio's case, Katherine helps him avoid jail time. She promises to bring in outside help. Working with Bob Woodson's nonprofit, Catherine helps raise money for the Mac Means to install six septic tanks. But that's just one family. She and Bob Woodson also have a tense meeting with state health department officials. The health department director firmly believes people without proper sanitation should be held accountable. State law requires them to send legal notices when there's been a complaint and to make arrests if those complaints aren't addressed. But Katherine finally gets everyone to agree that arrests won't solve the problem. They need to find other solutions first before escalating to locking people up. Leaving the meeting, Katherine and Bob work to find private donors.
- [14:10]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
We put in septic systems for families, even relocated some families. We have since found out that a number of septic systems that we put in failed as well. But our belief is that it's largely because designs haven't changed. But the climate has.
- [14:29]
Zach Goldbaum
In Lowndes county, climate change has caused heavier and warmer rainstorms. And remember that dark clay soil that gives the Black belt its name. Well, it doesn't drain well. So all of that additional rain leads to flooding, and all of that flooding can cause septic tanks to fail. Sewage backs up into people's homes or accumulates in pools of waste above where the tanks are buried. So Catherine wants to find a more permanent Solution. And in 2009, it's suddenly more urgent than ever. The health department plans to arrest people again. And this time, Catherine will find something else that will make her skin crawl. In October 2009, Catherine pays a visit to a pregnant single mother of an autistic child. She lives in a mobile home on a few acres of land and is really struggling to make ends meet. And it doesn't help that the health department is breathing down her neck.
- [15:27]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
When I went there, you could actually smell the sewage outside of her home when we were on the inside.
- [15:33]
Zach Goldbaum
At the request of the health department, the woman paid $800 for a test to determine what kind of septic system she needed to inst. The test came back and said the system this woman needed would cost around $10,000. She's making about $700 a month, so that's just impossible. And now the health department is threatening to arrest her. On her visit, Catherine asks to see where the sewage is pooling.
- [16:01]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
So when we went out back behind her mobile home, just at the back door was a pit, you know, a hole full of raw sewage. On top of that raw sewage were mosquitoes. They were like nesting in this water. And I had on a dress, and by the time I left there, they had bitten me so many times, I could see blood spots on my stockings.
- [16:27]
Zach Goldbaum
After that visit, Katherine breaks out in a rash. When it doesn't go away, she calls her doctor to take her blood. The tests come back negative for any common mosquito borne diseases. So she goes to a dermatologist who gives her different creams to help her clear it up. But they don't do anything.
- [16:46]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
The conversation with my doctor was, is it possible that I have something that American doctors are not looking for because they're not expecting this to be a problem in the United States? And she said yes.
- [17:01]
Zach Goldbaum
Catherine doesn't ever find out what caused her rash. But it does make her wonder, is there something spreading in Lowndes county that no one is testing for? It's 2013, and Dr. Rogelio Mejia has just arrived in Lowndes county from Houston, Texas, where he works studying tropical diseases. He's been invited by Catherine Flowers to help get to the bottom of what illnesses might be spreading in Alabama. When he arrives, Catherine takes him out to collect samples. And even though Rogelio's spent his career studying diseases that are linked to poverty, Catherine. He's shocked by what he sees.
- [17:54]
Dr. Rogelio Mejia
I could see where the sanitation lines would run out to a certain point in a city or in a small town and then stop. And it's almost like basically crossing the railroad tracks and then not having any more services. And everyone there is African American on that side.
- [18:12]
Zach Goldbaum
Rogelia looks like he's just walked out of the lab, still wearing dress shoes. And people are wary of outsiders coming around asking questions. Arrests have slowed since the early 2000s, but it's still a crime to have an improper septic system.
- [18:25]
Dr. Rogelio Mejia
Catherine and I went to a home. There were several children. None of the children had shoes on, and they were all running around in the backyard. Think of a rural environment with a lot of tall grass and dirt. Their sewage system. Straight pipe went out to a latrine. It was away from the home, but you could tell the children still played by it because there was a soccer ball in it and there were toys strewn around.
- [18:52]
Zach Goldbaum
Rogelio changes from dress shoes to work boots pretty quickly after that. In total, he, Catherine, and a group of volunteers collect 55 samples. Rogelio returns to his lab and runs some tests. And he's shocked to find that over 30% of the samples contain a tropical disease that was thought to be eradicated decades earlier in the U.S. hookworm.
- [19:16]
Dr. Rogelio Mejia
Hookworm is a worm that has a large opening where we call its mouth and then has these plates that look like teeth that will then bind to the intestinal lining and then access the venous system and basically suck out blood from the host.
- [19:35]
Zach Goldbaum
Once the worm latches its fangs into your stomach lining, it wreaks havoc on your body. First there's the rash. Then the larva can enter the skin. Your intestines inflame, and in children, it can stunt growth, and a severe infection can lead to cognitive delays.
- [19:53]
Dr. Rogelio Mejia
You get infected through the skin, mostly when you're walking out in the field, and then it starts its life cycle, and it ends up in your small intestines, and it basically feeds off your body.
- [20:07]
Zach Goldbaum
The good news is that it's pretty straightforward to treat and get rid of hookworm with an antibiotic. But the problem is it's easy to get reinfected if the hookworm is still in the environment someone goes back to.
- [20:19]
Dr. Rogelio Mejia
When we talk about treatment, it's only a band aid. It's only giving the child something that they need at the moment. But you're not curing the problem.
- [20:29]
Zach Goldbaum
There are hundreds of millions of hookworm infections worldwide, mostly in developing countries. It used to be a huge problem in the US Especially the South. But as indoor plumbing and sanitation improved, many experts thought the parasites had been eradicated. Instead, Rogelio and Catherine have discovered that hookworm is still widespread in a population health experts have mostly ignored. Rogelio and Catherine hope their findings will bring light to the sanitation problems made worse by poverty and racial inequality in Lowndes County.
- [21:03]
Dr. Rogelio Mejia
There's a feeling in Alabama that there are two worlds, that you have the people who have money and the people who don't. And the people who don't have money. A higher percentage of them are African American, are people of color.
- [21:17]
Zach Goldbaum
And Rogelio believes there's another factor making it worse. Rising temperatures due to climate change.
- [21:23]
Dr. Rogelio Mejia
Before, there was only three months or four months out of the year where the parasites could thrive in the environment and expose people. Now it could be six months, eight months out of the year.
- [21:37]
Zach Goldbaum
It's a stunning realization for Rogelio and his team of scientists. But for the people of Lowndes county, it's just confirmation of what they already knew.
- [21:48]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
I think the community, they knew that something was wrong. They didn't know what it was. They thought, I believe that it was now going to lead to a solution.
- [22:00]
Zach Goldbaum
Rogelio and Catherine finally published their findings in September 2017. It makes international news that a parasite associated with extreme poverty is found in the United States. For a moment, it seemed that Catherine finally had the ammunition she needed to spark a change.
- [22:18]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
But what happened instead? The Health department put on their website that the study was not valid.
- [22:25]
Zach Goldbaum
Instead of accepting the findings and starting to work toward a solution, the state health department refutes the study outright. The health department publishes a letter to their website declaring that the study fails to prove hookworm infection. Part of their argument is that Rogelio and Catherine used experimental technology that wasn't approved by the fda. The testing they relied on is a newer method called PCR. Now you're probably getting flashbacks to 2020 and swabs being stuck up your nose. Because, yes, it's the same kind of lab technique we used for Covid, but a few years earlier, it wasn't understood as well. Although from Katherine's point of view, the PCR technology issue was just an excuse.
- [23:10]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
I was not surprised when they discounted the findings. They took it as a personal affront as opposed to seeing that it was a means to an end to find a long term solution to this problem because they've known about it for years, and their attempt to deal with it was to arrest people.
- [23:29]
Dr. Rogelio Mejia
I think because of politics, they did not believe our study. I know that there's been political problems in the region with the public health department and the people who don't have the proper sanitation.
- [23:44]
Zach Goldbaum
By now, Catherine is convinced that this is about more than just sanitation. To her, the alabama health department is discriminating against the people of lowndes county, and she's determined to get them justice.
- [23:57]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
I think environmental justice is anytime there's contamination of the land, the soil, the air, and the water in marginalized communities that were chosen because of their inability to fight, Whether it's latino or hispanic, whether it is white, whether it is east palestine in Ohio, those are environmental justice communities.
- [24:28]
Zach Goldbaum
So in September 2018, Catherine decides to escalate her fight to the highest echelons of power. In a federal complaint, she takes aim at the health department, saying they violated the civil rights of the residents of lowndes county. She doesn't know it yet, but she's just set in motion a landmark case for Environmental Justice. In November 2021, the Department of justice announced it would look into Catherine flowers complaint against the state and county health departments. This is a huge deal. It's the first time the federal government had opened an environmental justice investigation. In their announcement, a doj attorney said that sanitation is a basic human need, and health officials should protect all their residents, health and safety. Doj investigators get to work. They interview Catherine, hold public meetings to hear from residents, and send inquiries to local and state health officials. While the investigation is underway, Catherine is invited to the white house to celebrate earth day in April 2023. That day, President Joe biden will sign an executive order reaffirming the administration's commitment to environmental justice. But before they hold a public ceremony, Catherine meets with the president privately.
- [25:59]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
The president came into the oval office. He came up to me and he said, hi, grandma. My granddaughter had just been born, like a couple of days before, because I almost didn't come to the event for that reason. And we embraced, and he said, I've been to Selma many times, but I didn't know about this problem. He said, but I'm going to fix it. I think he saw that I was getting ready to break down. He said, come here, let me show you something. He took me around his desk and started pointing out pictures of his grandchildren and telling me about each one of them.
- [26:33]
Zach Goldbaum
It's a tender moment for Katherine. She's proud to be a part of the event. And she's already seen this administration's efforts to address these kinds of problems. Catherine and the President leave the Oval Office and head outside to the sunny Rose Garden.
- [26:48]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
We walked out holding hands because he was trying to prevent me from stumbling over that step.
- [26:55]
Zach Goldbaum
Among the spectators, she sees people she knows from the environmental justice, or EJ movement.
- [27:01]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
And it was an iconic moment and unbelievable for me. When I got outside and I saw all these people from the EJ movement sitting in the audience, it was everything I could to contain myself.
- [27:15]
Zach Goldbaum
Catherine gets to say a few words before introducing the President.
- [27:19]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
I am a country girl from Lowndes County, Alabama, where I learned important lessons about democracy and voting. For years, wastewater infrastructure for many families there has been failing or non existent, not unlike rural communities nationwide. Now, with the help of this White House, we're fixing that.
- [27:45]
Zach Goldbaum
Then Biden talks about what his executive order will do.
- [27:48]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
Environmental justice will become the responsibility of.
- [27:51]
Zach Goldbaum
Every single federal agency. I mean every single federal agency. Among other things, Biden's order aims for 40% of all federal clean energy and climate investments to go to disadvantaged communities like Lowndes. Looking back on that day, it was a huge moment for Catherine. It symbolizes how far she's come.
- [28:16]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
I never thought that I would get a chance to, let alone be in the White House, in the Oval Office with a president, but introduce him to.
- [28:28]
Zach Goldbaum
Can I ask why that story makes you emotional?
- [28:33]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
I think that coming from nothing and having the opportunities, not just that one, but many that I've had, that's what keeps me hopeful. Because I'm sure most people that knew me and grew up with me wouldn't have thought it, that at this point in time, we've experienced the worst of times, but we've also experienced the best of times.
- [29:07]
Zach Goldbaum
Days later, in May 2023, the DOJ and the Alabama state and county health departments reach an agreement. The nearly 18 month investigation found the health departments had a pattern of inaction and or neglect when it came to the health risks of raw sewage. The agreement lays out a plan to make wastewater disposal safer and more equitable. In Lowndes county. That means there's a moratorium on citing people for improper sewage systems. Also, the health departments need to launch a public health campaign about the hazards of raw sewage and work with the CDC to identify those county residents most at risk. The Alabama Department of Public Health starts a program to install approved septic systems. As part of their agreement with the federal government, they also conduct assessments to prioritize who should get the new systems. The state legislature allocates $1.5 million in federal funds to Lowndes county sewage problems. The health department plans to install 60 new septic systems by the end of 2026. For some families, it's their very first septic tank. After decades of residents raising alarms about the problem, there is real work being done to fix it. But all that unravels in April 2025.
- [30:31]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
A major shift in federal policy is sparking concern in one of Alabama's rural counties. The U.S. department of justice ended a settlement agreement with the state over sewage problems in Lowndes County.
- [30:42]
Zach Goldbaum
This is part of President Donald Trump's attack on so called DEI initiatives. In a press release about the move, the administration calls DEI and environmental justice work illegal, basically arguing that the settlement gave the people of Lowndes preferential treatment based on race because addressing discrimination is a form of discrimination or whatever. But now people in lounge who have joined wait lists to get new septic tanks are in limbo. Despite this setback, Catherine somehow remains optimistic.
- [31:18]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
This is an opportunity for the current president to go and see it himself. No president has ever seen this that I'm aware of. And it's an opportunity to fix a problem with a big, beautiful ending.
- [31:36]
Zach Goldbaum
Kathryn Flowers influence beyond Lowndes county continues to grow. She was named a MacArthur Genius Grant winner in 2020, and earlier this year she was an honoree for the Time Earth Awards. Now Catherine's fight has expanded beyond her hometown.
- [31:53]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
California, New York, Texas, Mississippi, Mississippi, Georgia, Kentucky, Tennessee, Indiana. I mean, all over the country, climate change is revealing all of this. Whether we call it climate change or not, it doesn't matter who's in the White House. And whether they want to acknowledge it or not, the work continues. I'm not devastated by it. I mean, I'm a black female in America. I've overcome lots and I will continue to overcome in order to get to where we need to go in this country. We can't give up and roll over. Then when I look at my parents and how they would have dealt with it, they would have kept on too. We have no choice.
- [32:41]
Zach Goldbaum
Fifty years ago, Katherine Flowers sat in her living room watching her parents do the hard and often thankless work a fighting back against segregation and inequality. That fight is not over. And wherever her battles take Catherine next, she continues to draw strength from her roots.
- [33:02]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
The people of Lowndes county are very resilient. Lowndes county could represent the promise of democracy and the fact that everyone should have a human right to water and sanitation. And we have to give people of Lowndes county credit for exposing America's dirty secret.
- [33:35]
Zach Goldbaum
Follow Lawless Planet on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes of Lawless Planet early and ad free right now by joining Wondry plus in the Wondry App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey@wondry.com survey on the next episode of Lawless Planet when an oil boom in North Dakota brings crime and corruption to Indian country, an indigenous woman embarks on an obsessive quest for justice.
- [34:13]
Katharine Coleman Flowers
They said, lyssa, you are going up against an empire. I said, you know what an empire is built of? Bricks. You know how you dismantle one brick by fucking brick?
- [34:32]
Zach Goldbaum
For today's episode we relied heavily on Katharine Coleman Flowers book Waste. Lawless Planet is produced and hosted by me, Zach Goldbaum. This episode was written by our associate producer, Lexi Perry. Our senior producer and senior story editor is Derek John. Senior producer for Wondery is Andy Herman. Our senior managing producer is Nick Ryan. Our managing producer is Sarah Kenny Corrigan. Sound design by Kyle Randall. Music by Kenny Kuziak. Our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Frison Saint. Fact checking by Naomi Barr. Our legal counsel is Deb Droze. Executive producers are Marshall Louie and Jenny Lauer. Beckman for Wondering. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week. Wondering.