Podcast Summary: "Fou d'histoire : Pauline Dreyfus, jeter un pont entre la littérature et l'histoire"

Le Cours de l'Histoire, France Culture – 12 December 2025
Host: Xavier Mauduit
Guest: Pauline Dreyfus (author of Un pont sur la Seine)

Episode Overview

This episode explores the deep interconnections between history and literature through the lens of Pauline Dreyfus's novel Un pont sur la Seine. Mauduit and Dreyfus discuss how the story of a small village's bridge on the Seine becomes a microcosm for France’s rural-to-industrial transformation, family sagas, generational shifts, and collective memory. The bridge itself serves as a central metaphor, spanning not just the river but also the divides between past and present, rural and industrial, and even fact and fiction.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Bridge as a Historical and Literary Metaphor

• Location & Personal Connection

  • Dreyfus explains (04:00–04:12) her personal ties to Tomery, the inspiration for her novel's setting, where she spent her childhood and has family roots.
    "C'est là que j'ai grandi, où mes grands-parents avaient leur maison, achetée par mon arrière-grand-père en 1912." (Pauline Dreyfus)

• The Role of the Bridge

  • Initially, the absence of a bridge resulted in fatal ferry accidents (eg. 1828, 18 deaths), highlighting local needs for safer passage and economic growth (05:37–06:06).

• Symbolism and Narrative Device

  • The bridge is anthropomorphized, observing "the direction of History, like a tennis referee turning their head back and forth" (06:47–07:54). This personification allows the bridge to become a silent witness and protagonist of the novel.

2. Social and Economic Transformations

• From Viticulture to Industry

  • The village’s glory once depended on Chasselas grape cultivation—a symbol of rural prosperity exported as far as Russia, preserved through inventive methods (02:09–03:20).
  • With the late 19th- and early 20th-century rise of industry, especially an electricity factory built by Schneider in 1903, labor shifted from vines to machinery, offering more stable (if harder) employment and social mobility (08:12–10:00).

• Cycles of Prosperity and Decline

  • Dreyfus notes families’ shifting fortunes as the factory grows and later declines, reflecting national trends of deindustrialization and rural gentrification (20:49–22:22).
  • Quote: "On est toujours le paysan de quelqu'un." (Pauline Dreyfus, 22:22)

3. Family Sagas and Generational Memory

• Two Branches, Two Paths
  • The novel follows two imaginary brothers: one remains a winemaker, the other becomes a factory worker—mirroring broader societal change (11:47–12:47).
  • War (notably WWI) intensifies family and social divisions; industrial workers are brought home to make munitions while farmers are sent to the front, with lasting repercussions (17:05–18:13).

4. The Literary Approach: Blurring Fact and Fiction

• Historical Romanization

  • Dreyfus defends the blending of documented history with imaginative characters and events:
    "L'histoire est au romancier ce que la perche est au perchiste: ça donne de l'élan." (11:47–12:47)
  • She chooses to fictionalize the village’s name (Saint-Amant, after its church), partly out of deference for real-life villagers (12:53–13:14).

• Attention to Detail

  • A humorous and symbolic motif: the evolution of the moustache as an indicator of shifting masculinity and class (14:13–14:47).

5. Museums, Memory & the Limits of Heritage

• Satire of 'Immersive' History
  • Dreyfus inserts a subplot about a character wanting to open a museum dedicated to the bridge—a playful critique of "parcours immersifs" and the museification of the past (30:17–31:54).
  • She contrasts the static nature of museums with the novel’s capacity to bring history and lives back to dynamic, emotional immediacy (32:21–34:14).

6. Personal and Family History

• Complex Heritage

  • Dreyfus discusses her bicultural background: a Jewish paternal side marked by WWII exile, and a maternal side with a grandfather, Alfred Fabre-Luce, controversially associated with Vichy and condemned postwar—demonstrating the messy interplay of public and private histories (36:52–41:24).

• On the Weight of Names

  • When asked about ties to the famous Dreyfus affair, she quips that though everyone asks, she’s not closely related, but the name carries historical resonance (44:00–44:48).

7. Literature and History: Shared Tools, Shared Duty

• The Historian as Storyteller

  • Mauduit and Dreyfus agree that contemporary historians are excellent narrators, making history as compelling as fiction (52:49–53:28).
  • Quote: "Les historiens sont devenus de très bons conteurs...On tourne des pages." (Pauline Dreyfus, 52:49)

• On 'Roman Historique'

  • Dreyfus resists the label "historical novel," arguing all fiction—except perhaps the ultra-contemporary—is historical by virtue of its embeddedness in a milieu and time (50:00–51:30).

Notable Quotes

• The Bridge as Silent Witness:
  "Le pont, pour moi, il est l’équivalent de l’arbitre d’un match de tennis...il observe le sens de l’Histoire. Le sens de l’Histoire, c’est une girouette."
  — Xavier Mauduit (07:00)

• On Family and Social Mobility:
  "On est toujours le paysan de quelqu’un."
  — Pauline Dreyfus (22:22)

• On Writing Historical Fiction:
  "L’histoire est au romancier ce que la perche est au perchiste : c’est ce qui permet de donner de l’élan."
  — Pauline Dreyfus (11:50)

• On Museums and Fiction:
  "Ce qui est un peu dommage, c’est qu’on ne peut pas transformer ce qui a été de vraies existences en parcours immersif."
  — Pauline Dreyfus (31:30)

• On Her Family’s WWII Legacy:
  "J’ai un pedigree un peu compliqué...deux familles très différentes, une branche maternelle du côté Tonnerie, avec un grand-père très pétainiste...de l’autre côté, une famille juive."
  — Pauline Dreyfus (36:52)

• On Literary Biomimesis:
  "Un roman est forcément historique. Il est enchâssé dans une époque donnée."
  — Pauline Dreyfus (50:20)

Important Timestamps

• 00:08 – Opening metaphor: the bridge between history and literature
• 03:42–04:11 – Dreyfus’s personal connection to Tomery
• 05:37–06:06 – Fatal ferry accident as catalyst for building the bridge
• 07:00–07:54 – Bridge as observer and central character
• 09:06–10:00 – Socio-economic transformation: vineyard to factory
• 12:47 – The two brothers: fiction and history intertwined
• 14:13–14:47 – The moustache motif: details as social/historical markers
• 20:49–22:22 – Shifts in family status across generations
• 30:17–31:54 – Satire on museums and memory
• 36:52–41:24 – Pauline’s family history: Vichy, occupation, Jewish exile
• 44:00–44:48 – Weight of the Dreyfus name
• 50:00–51:30 – All novels as historical novels
• 52:49–53:28 – The contemporary historian as storyteller

Memorable Moments

• Anecdote of Grape Preservation:
  Chasselas grapes from Tomery were so prized they were shipped as far as Russia, thanks to ingenious preservation methods (02:23–03:20).

• The Moustache as Fashion Indicator:
  The transformation of moustache styles from 1900 to the 1960s mirrors changes in masculine identity and social class (14:13–14:47).

• Reflections on Family:
  The family stories in Dreyfus’s novel mirror her own complex lineage, connecting private and public histories (36:52–41:24).

• Museum vs. Novel:
  Dreyfus’s playful jab at “parcours immersif” shows her preference for literature as the more authentic vehicle to inhabit the past (31:30–32:21).

Conclusion

Through playful, precise, and deeply personal storytelling, this episode bridges (quite literally) the gap between history and literature. Dreyfus’s novel becomes a case study in how fiction can flesh out the “blanks” of history, and how both disciplines illuminate the interplay of individual lives and grand historical forces. The dialogue makes a compelling case for storytelling—both historical and literary—as essential to understanding who we are, collectively and individually.

Recommended Reading:

• Un pont sur la Seine by Pauline Dreyfus (Grasset)
• Colette, Ma vie avec by Pauline Dreyfus
• Paul Morand (biography by Pauline Dreyfus, Gallimard)