Podcast Summary – Le Cours de l'histoire

Episode: "Franco, histoire d'un dictateur : Le franquisme après Franco, histoire d'une mémoire douloureuse"

Host: Xavier Mauduit (France Culture)
Guests:

• Stéphane Michonneau (Professeur d’histoire contemporaine – Université Paris-Est-Créteil)
• Sophie Babi (Maîtresse de conférence en histoire contemporaine – Université Bourgogne-Europe)
  Date: November 20, 2025
  Theme: Exploring Spain's transition from the Franco dictatorship to democracy, the enduring legacy of Franco, and contemporary debates around memory, justice, and reconciliation.

Overview

This episode delves into the decades following the death of Francisco Franco in 1975, interrogating how Spain managed its transition to democracy, the role of collective memory, and the unresolved questions and traumas stemming from the dictatorship. Through historical analysis, personal reflection, and archival recordings, the historian guests explore why the legacy of Franco remains divisive, why reckoning with the past is still ongoing, and how memory politics continue to shape Spanish society.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The End of the Franco Regime and Spain's Transition (00:08–17:55)

• Death and the Aftermath:
  Franco died on November 20, 1975, after a protracted illness and a carefully orchestrated public departure. Though the dictator believed he had "tied" (atado todo, bien atado) the regime's future securely, what would come next was deeply uncertain.
• Continuity by Design:
  Franco handpicked Juan Carlos as his successor, not out of dynastic line but by personal designation, intending to perpetuate the regime under a "monarchy of the 18 July"—a reference to the 1936 coup.
• Public Anxiety and Division:
  The initial period after Franco's death was marked by unease, as well as disputes among different "families" of the regime (military, phalangists, monarchists, etc.).

  Stéphane Michonneau [15:23]: "La mort de Franco va provoquer une sorte de disputes immenses entre les élites franquistes pour savoir qui remportera le morceau parce que Franco était le point d’union entre différentes familles… Une fois disparu, ces familles tendent à se déchirer."

• Transition vs. Revolution:
  Spain’s transition was meticulously non-revolutionary, aiming for stability—partly as a rejection of Portugal’s tumultuous Carnation Revolution— and occurred gradually from within the existing structures.

  Xavier Mauduit [22:11]: « Le concept de transition précisément s’oppose à celui de révolution. »

2. Memory, Amnesia, and the Politics of Reconciliation (17:55–32:17)

• The Law of Amnesia (1977):
  The first democratic parliament passed a general amnesty, liberating political prisoners but simultaneously precluding prosecution of crimes committed under Franco.

  Stéphane Michonneau [27:55]: "Il y a une mauvaise interprétation qui consiste à croire que cette loi aurait été une loi qui promouvait une forme d’oubli… En réalité, c’est un effet inattendu mais ce n'était pas le débat de l’époque."

• Persistence of Franco's Figure:
  Franco himself remained a symbolic touchstone for many Spaniards; his funeral drew hundreds of thousands, and 40% reportedly experienced his death as losing a close relative.
• Suppressed Desire for Reckoning:
  Calls for judicial reckoning were absent from immediate post-dictatorship debates; the focus was on "passing the page" (pasar página) and national reconciliation, leaving aside demands for justice from victims' families.

3. Democratization Under Threat (32:17–39:56)

• Ongoing Violence and Instability:
  The late 1970s and early 80s saw significant violence (from ETA, extreme left, right-wing paramilitaries, police repression), with nearly 800 deaths during the transition.

  Sophie Babi [32:25]: "Le fantôme de la violence plane… Le personnel politique n’a pas changé fondamentalement en 1976-77."

• The Failed Coup of 1981:
  The attempted military coup (23-F) by Antonio Tejero was a pivotal moment—society was terrified, and the king’s televised intervention became a turning point for monarchy’s image and Spanish democracy.

  Xavier Mauduit [36:30]: "Elle a un effet absolument déterminant… assoit la légitimité du roi Juan Carlos… Puis il y a eu une réaction de la société civile après coup, une immense manifestation."

4. Memory Wars: From Silence to Reckoning (1980s–2000s & Beyond) (39:56–51:43)

• The Politics of Silence:
  Through the 1980s and 1990s, the socialist government (and much of society) preferred to “turn the page,” focusing on economic development and European integration rather than on the wounds of the civil war or dictatorship.

  Stéphane Michonneau [46:34]: "Un silence… une volonté de la part des élites politiques de ne pas instrumentaliser les souvenirs de la guerre civile à des fins politiques… et les Espagnols sont d’accord avec cela."

• The Return of Memory:
  The children and grandchildren of victims pushed for new forms of remembrance and exhumation of mass graves from the civil war, often inspired by international movements (e.g., Argentina).

  Xavier Mauduit [45:36]: "La question des fosses est vraiment celle qui a permis le scandale public… un véritable choc… une émotivité très forte qui a marqué l’opinion…"

• Contemporary Memory Practices & Challenges:
  Questions like the fate of “bébés volés” (stolen babies) and the site of Franco’s tomb (Valle de los Caídos) becoming flashpoints in broader debates about Spain’s past.

  Stéphane Michonneau [52:15]: "C’est une idée de Franco, qui date de 1940… un immense ossuaire… Et ce mausolée va hanter la démocratie espagnole jusqu’à ce que la gauche espagnole décide d’exhumer ce corps…"

5. Symbolic Acts and Ongoing Divides (2019–2025) (51:43–End)

• Exhumations as Political and Media Events:
  The exhumation of Franco’s remains from Valle de los Caídos in 2019 garnered significant attention but minimal public unrest, reflecting a gap between media/political focus and wider public sentiment.

  Xavier Mauduit [55:32]: "Tout le monde se demandait mais qu’est-ce qui va se passer… Bah, il s’est rien passé. Rien du tout."

• Persistent Impunity and Incomplete Justice:
  Recent opinion polls show about 70% of Spaniards believe crimes of Francoism should have been judged, highlighting enduring dissatisfaction with impunity.

  Xavier Mauduit [56:50]: "Il n’y a eu aucun processus judiciaire… trois quarts de la population considèrent que les crimes du franquisme auraient dû être jugés."

• Plural Memory and Lingering Trauma:
  Both historians emphasize the complexity of Spanish memory: there are multiple “franquismes,” multiple opposition memories, and both popular and state narratives, making closure elusive.

  Host [48:28]: "Tout est pluriel dans cette histoire et la mémoire aussi est plurielle."

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Franco’s Shadow:

  Stéphane Michonneau [01:57]: "L’ombre de ce régime portée sur la démocratie est importante… On le voit presque tous les jours."

• On divisions about Franco today:

  Xavier Mauduit [03:27]: "Le rapport des Espagnols au franquisme… est extrêmement controversé, très politisé… il y a une vraie division entre la droite et la gauche."

• On the absence of ‘épuration’ (purge):

  Stéphane Michonneau [20:58]: "C’est un régime de continuité… pour ce qui est des élites économiques et des élites sociales, il y a véritablement conservation."

• On the return of memory:

  Sophie Babi [45:36]: "La question des fosses est vraiment celle qui a permis le scandale public, qui a permis l’éveil de l’opinion publique sur le passé de la guerre civile…"

• On current unhealed wounds:

  Xavier Mauduit [56:50]: "Il n’y a eu aucun processus judiciaire… trois quarts de la population considèrent que les crimes du franquisme auraient dû être jugés."

Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:08–02:47: Introduction to Franco’s death and transition context
• 03:27–04:37: Public perceptions and poll data on Franco’s legacy
• 10:19–12:32: Succession plan and Juan Carlos’ ambiguous rise
• 16:20–21:40: “Familles” of the regime; why transition, not revolution
• 25:39–31:50: Law of Amnesty and its consequences
• 32:25–34:52: Political violence during the transition
• 34:59–38:55: 1981 attempted coup; Juan Carlos’ role
• 42:21–43:05: Early secret exhumations of mass graves
• 45:36–46:34: Waves of memory and silence in the 2000s and before
• 52:15–55:16: The saga of Valle de los Caídos and Franco’s exhumation

Concluding Insights

• Complex, Layered Memories:
  The memory of the Franco regime is far from settled: competing versions exist, woven through family stories, regional experiences, and political contestation. Both the silence of the early democracy and the memory boom of the 2000s form part of a continuous, unfinished reckoning.
• Justice and Impunity:
  The amnesty that enabled a peaceful transition remains a source of bitterness for many seeking accountability for human rights abuses—a debate that is very much alive in contemporary Spain.
• Ongoing Questions:
  The fate of mass graves, the issue of “stolen babies,” and even the physical memory (monuments, toponyms) of Francoism remain unresolved, reappearing periodically in politics, public debate, and cultural production.

Recommended Reading:

• Stéphane Michonneau, Franco, le temps et la légende (Flammarion)
• Sophie Babi, Juger Franco, Impunité, Réconciliation, Mémoire (La Découverte)
• Réconciliation (Memoirs of Juan Carlos I, Stock)

The episode’s rich, multi-voiced discussion testifies to both Spain’s impressive journey into democracy and the enduring, at times painful, complexities of coming to terms with a difficult legacy.