Podcast Summary

Le Cours de l'histoire, France Culture
Episode: Histoire et numérique, les images du passé au défi du présent
Date: May 2, 2025
Host: Xavier Mauduit
Guests: Daniel Foliard (professeur, Université Paris-Cité), Julien Chou (professeur, Université Paris-Nanterre)

Overview: The Challenge of Images Past and Present

This episode explores the transformation of historical images in the digital age. The discussion centers on the impact of digitization, mass reproduction, and artificial intelligence (AI) on archives, collective memory, and the politics of image access. From colonial photography to AI-generated “memories,” the conversation links long-standing issues of power, erasure, and ownership to contemporary digital challenges—emphasizing how both the status and the use of images have evolved, but also how similar debates endure.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Very Nature of Photographic Image

• Origins and Meaning of Photography:

  • Daniel Foliard recalls the Greek roots: "photos" (light) and "graphène" (to write), suggesting that “a photographer is someone who writes with light.” (00:38)
  • Reference to Wim Wenders and the poetic definition of photography.

• Photography and Mass Reproduction:

  • Julien Chou observes that mass visual culture originated in the late 19th century—with images, engravings, and photography proliferating in the press—a precursor to today's digital saturation. (02:14)

2. From Archive to Algorithm: The Encoded Past

• A Long History of Image Reproduction:

  • Both guests underline that image saturation isn't exclusive to our era; it began with printmaking and early photographic techniques, laying groundwork for the current digital "pixel-encoded" visuality. (03:15–03:55)

• Digital Saturation and Rupture:

  • Daniel Foliard notes that while image circulation has always been high, the current volume—especially with AI models—marks a quantitative break: "On the last year, images generated exceed all photographs produced since the invention of photography." (06:04)

3. Visibility, Bias, and Erasure in Digital Archives

• Making the Invisible Visible:

  • Julien Chou calls attention to the "invisible image"—the billions of photographs lost or unseen in archives, becoming accessible only through digital retrieval tools, including AI. Yet, such tools also introduce new selection biases. (07:18, 11:38)

• Political Control over Image Circulation:

  • Daniel Foliard details how regimes, such as China, meticulously curate official archives, emphasizing traumatic historical periods while suppressing those deemed problematic (e.g., Cultural Revolution images). (08:44)
  • “On écrit le passé aussi selon les images disponibles, ou en tout cas les images qu’on veut bien nous donner.” – Xavier Mauduit (09:50)

4. Artificial (and Biased) Memory

• AI Tools as “Artificial Memory”:

  • Julien Chou introduces the term “mémoire artificielle” instead of “intelligence artificielle,” arguing these systems repackage cultural memory and significant visual stereotypes, deeply shaped by their training datasets. (10:07, 11:13)
  • "Les IA sont des outils de mémoire artificielle... les biais sont énormes." (11:38)

• Western-Centric Databases and Absences:

  • Foliard highlights the absence of non-Western and colonized perspectives in both historical and AI datasets: “Tout ce qui est photo africaine originale est absente... risque d’effacer toute une partie de ce qu’une photographie peut être.” (13:07)

5. Ownership and Ethics of Images

• Case Study: The Daguerreotype of Renty Taylor

  • Discussion of the use and contested ownership of images depicting enslaved persons, especially the case of Renty Taylor—whose descendant sued Harvard for profiting from his image:
    • “C’est une manière de très clairement dire... les communautés descendantes devraient avoir un droit de regard ou moins de parole sur la manière de labelliser, d’étiqueter ces images.” – Daniel Foliard (23:48)

• Extractivism and the Commons:

  • Valid concerns are raised about “digital extractivism”—tech giants appropriating the publicly digitized visual commons for private gain, with little return to contributors or public heritage. (26:01, 32:33)

6. The Fragility and Politics of Digital Archives

• The Illusion of Digital Permanence:

  • Foliard questions the myth of eternal digital archives, warning that digital data is fragile, can be lost, erased, and manipulated—much more easily than traditional paper records. (29:22, 37:12)

• Commercialisation and Political Control:

  • Both guests warn of the dangers of private platforms gaining near-total control of memory, and the risks of hidden censorship, algorithmic bias, or even product placement in generated images. (35:57)

7. Reappropriation, Instrumentalization, and the Flattening of Images

• Historical Reappropriation and Frictions:

  • Contesting the archive means, for both Foliard and Chou, making space for marginalized or “unwanted” pasts to surface, sometimes challenging existing classification systems—including via digital tools. (40:48)

• Loss of Context and Instrumentalization:

  • The digital format often “flattens” diverse images, erasing context and provenance, leading to potential misuse—such as showing ambiguous or traumatizing images to students without proper framing. (45:53)
  • Foliard stresses, “Je crois que c’est important pour tout le monde qu’à un moment les élèves, les gens, aillent voir de la photographie dans des expositions.” (43:30)

• The Nostalgia Trap and Fake Authenticity:

  • Chou notes how AI reconstructs “nostalgic” aesthetics—producing faux-vintage images that reinforce stereotypes rather than authentic historical engagement: “une espèce d’Amélie-Poulanisation de la mémoire visuelle.” (46:22)

8. Responsibility, Agency, and the Path Forward

• Refusing Techno-Determinism:

  • Both guests urge caution—not to mythologize AI or digital archives as either monsters or miracles. Agency remains with human users, researchers, and communities who can shape how tools are used, provided they understand their limits and implications. (54:31, 56:21)

• The Stakes of Collective Memory:

  • The episode closes on a reminder that public and collective debate, transparency, and access are crucial: “C’est un vrai enjeu collectif.” (56:21)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

On the Deep History of the Image

• “Notre monde n’est pas exceptionnel… Le monde saturé d’images, c’est déjà quelque chose d’ancien.”
  — Xavier Mauduit (05:23)

On AI as Biased Memory

• “Ce qui est intéressant, c’est que la génération d’images fonctionne comme une caisse de résonance qui va complètement, de manière exponentielle, exagérer ce déséquilibre-là.”
  — Daniel Foliard (13:07)

On Digital Fragility

• “Il y a une vraie fragilité de ces données numériques. Toutes les bibliothèques peuvent brûler, y compris numériques.”
  — Daniel Foliard (29:22)

Ethics and Ownership

• « Les communautés descendantes ont un droit, devraient avoir un droit de regard... »
  — Daniel Foliard (23:48)

On Reappropriation and Critique

• “C’est important… d’aller voir la photographie dans des expositions. Retrouver quelque chose de tangible.”
  — Daniel Foliard (43:30)

On Political Stakes

• “La grande question, ça va être comment est-ce qu’on va en tant que collectivité, gérer ce commun?”
  — Julien Chou (26:01)

Roland Barthes on Photography

• “La photographie ne dit pas forcément ce qui n’est plus, mais seulement et à coup sûr ce qui a été.” (47:35)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:08 — Introduction of main theme
• 01:18–02:56 — Guests introduce their research and the historical context of mass images
• 03:55 — Long history of image encoding and significance of the pixel
• 06:04 — Explosion in the amount of generated images in the AI era
• 07:18 — The problem of invisible images in archives
• 08:44 — Political uses and erasures in historical photographic archives (e.g., China)
• 10:07, 11:13 — The concept of "artificial memory" and AI biases
• 13:07 — Colonial archives and the absence of marginalized perspectives
• 22:14 — The story of the daguerreotype of Renty Taylor, questions of ownership
• 26:01 — Digital extractivism and cultural commons
• 29:22 — Fragility and impermanence of digital archives
• 32:33 — Political stakes of public vs. private data in digital memory
• 40:48 — The notion of "contested pasts" and why they're important
• 45:53 — The risk of flattening documents in digital formats; importance of context
• 46:22 — AI recreating nostalgic aesthetics falsely
• 47:35, 48:33 — Roland Barthes on the truth claim of photography and its limitations
• 54:31, 56:21 — Need for critical vigilance; collective responsibility in the digital age

Conclusion: Challenges, Continuities, and Agency

The digitization of historical images is not merely a technical matter; it intersects with social, political, and ethical issues around ownership, access, bias, memory, and collective agency. While new technologies present opportunities for broader access and new kinds of research, they also reintroduce old questions—about who controls the archive, whose histories are visible, and how meaning is constructed and contested. The episode ends on an optimistic yet cautious note, urging greater collective awareness, critical engagement, and the development of democratic frameworks for managing visual heritage in the digital era.

Further Reference:

• Daniel Foliard & Julien Chou, Passé contesté, présent numérique, Éditions Le Bordelot
• Daniel Foliard, Combattre, Punir, Photographier, Empire Colonial, 1890–1914, La Découverte