← Lead Worship Well
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Foreign.
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Welcome to the Lead Worship well podcast. I'm your host, Chris Cootie, and I'm so glad that you're here today. One of the things we think about a lot around here is what it means to be wholehearted as a worship leader. Because the truth is you can get really good at working for God while missing him completely. And we believe that the church, your church, church, deserves a worship leader who is wholehearted, skilled. Yes. Prepared, absolutely. But also in union and communion with Jesus. Today, I get to sit down with someone who has embodied that over a lifetime of ministry. Paul Balasch. Paul has been writing songs for the church for over 30 years. Songs like Open the Eyes of My Heart above all and Hosanna to Just Name a Few have been sung in congregations all over the world. But what's always struck me about Paul is that behind the songs is a man who loves and believes what he's singing. We talk about the difference between personal worship and pastoral worship and so much more. Grab a pen, a notebook and your worship team for this conversation with Paul Balash. Paul, before we get into anything, I want to start somewhere personal. I'm intrigued about the 26 years as a worship pastor at the same church, Lindale, Texas. You could talk more about that. That's a long time. I would love to know what did those 26 years or so teach you about worship that maybe a five year run and jump to another place wouldn't have taught you?
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Really good question. You know, about every five years, sometimes that would come up in our hearts or maybe there was an opportunity, like some offer, if you will, like as years went on, maybe like a bigger church or this kind of a situation, it was like, huh, definitely worthy of prayer. And we would spend time, you know, praying like, lord, you know, maybe this season is. But for some reason, in our heart of hearts, for many reasons, a lot of it had to do with the relationships that we had had. We established people on our team, became some of our best friends, and then some of them became neighbors. So then their kids and our kids were growing up together and now going to school together and now involved in sports and activities together. And I just kind of had that. We had my wife and I had that feeling of like, these are the people we want to do life with. Like, you have to pick at some point you got to pick some people and go, okay, funerals and weddings and new babies and difficulties and challenges and happy times. We got to do that with, with a community and so feel like we've got a good Little. Some a good run going here. We, you know, not perfect people, but people that feel like they're on the same page as us. They seem sincere in their pursuit of God and wanting to serve God, trying to work through the weirdness of church stuff or backgrounds and all that. Anyway, maybe a long answer, but that's sort of what made us go, yeah, let's just hang in there a little longer. And we even had two. What some would call maybe a church split in those 25, 26 years, you know, where, you know, a new pastor or some. At that time, it had more to do with. There was an evangelist at our church, amazing guy, but he was part of the Brownsville revival. And so our church was a little bit of those who experienced that really strong in their hearts. And then the other half of the church that kind of wasn't experiencing that. And I'm up there leading worship each Sunday day, trying to kind of keep us, you know, together, if you will. Not that I had the power to do that, but like the. The heart of like a dad or an uncle maybe to sort of like, hey, family, hey, you know, let's like trying to understand one another and give. Extend some grace to each other. To each one. And those that kind of were like this about the movement of the spirit and others who are like, they just wanted to be touched so they could fall down, you know. Yeah. And it was just sort of like the. The full gamut. And meanwhile, I'm up do the next song in the kiwi. Here we go. And you know, just trying to keep this background music while people are getting prayed for and all that. So, you know, you're just like kind of like a marriage in some ways. I don't know. And maybe it's maybe that some would argue that analogy, but perhaps for some you get to a point where you feel like this is almost marriage, like where you've made a covenant with this group of people and they've sort of committed to you. And maybe that sounds old fashioned or weird, but in other words, you kind of weather some of the difficult times and you hang in there because you sort of. Because of this bedrock covenant foundation. And then you sort of get on the other side six months later and you're like, man, I'm glad we worked through that. Hang in there like this. This is sweet now, man. The presence of the Lord and oh, that was sweet. And really sensing God's favor again. And oh, this is good. You know, I love the.
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Even just the markers along your journey where you even just recalled to your mind that you made an intentional decision to evaluate not just the what we're doing, but the why we're doing it that ended up being the thing that centered you or kept you staying. Because I, I argue often that I know for my generation, I'm 42, and as a worship leader, the coming up of the role of worship leader was also simultaneously running next to this genre that is now exploding and selling millions of records. And unintentionally, we never got into ministry to get the bigger church or the bigger stage. But if we don't take those moments to pause and say actually what's my intention in this whole thing and what am I actually here to do, it's not so hard to see why people end up making these jumps. Because maybe we're here for the wrong reason. And if we're here for that wrong reason, then that jump to the next thing seems like the most logical when in actuality, me shepherding and walking alongside a body of believers and making a decisive choice that this is our people that then drove your longevity. Which is just, it's, it's fascinating to me and it leads me to the part of the conversation I will spend the majority of our time. And at the end of this conversation, for anyone listening, our hope is that this conversation would just get transposed to conversations that you're having with your worship teams, with maybe your staff. This could be a resource that you're listening to. So we, we hope to put tools in your tool belt as you serv. But there's an interesting place I want to pause with you, Paul, as I've respected you from a distance. You've been so encouraging in the comments of things that I've posted. And I say to young worship leaders all the time, you need someone who is miles ahead of you to help you prepare for the journeys and the miles that you have to walk. And you're that for me from a distance and now up close, I think it's one of the most under discussed tensions in worship ministry. It's this tension that there's the worship that we do when nobody's watching and then the worship that we lead when everyone is. And I think most of us as worship leaders live in a confusion about how those two things relate to each other. So let's just dive in. How do we describe the difference? Maybe it's private worship versus public worship. Right. And I think for a lot of worship leaders, the undergirding of some of the tension that they feel is figuring out how to balance the two or actually be honest about the fact that they're lacking in maybe the personal, private worship with God. So let's just jump in and spend minutes and hours on the conversation.
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So good. So good. And I'm not flattering you at all, but I do want to quickly say, yeah, I have loved the things that you've posted. You're. You have a gift to, to really condense and articulate some powerful truths. The spiritual and the practical. Constantly, constantly, Very consistently. Quite often as I go through the tiles of things you post, I'm like, man, well said, really well said. So just know that, yeah, that's a real gift God's given you.
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I'm just trying to help people not make the same dumb mistakes I did. That's really it.
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Exactly. Honestly, Absolutely. So your question. Yeah, it almost sounds. Back in the day, I was like my wife's guitar player and we ended up in Lindale, Texas. And I was like happy to be in this. I was like, hey, I'll play guitar. And it was a keyboard guy and the pastor would lead just with a mic. It was very simple, very. This was Keith Green started this little fellowship. And then of course then the plane crash happened. This was several years after that, but it was still pretty, pretty organic and informal and just a metal building in the middle of East Texas with metal folding chairs. But you know, a lot of like mercy ships people, ywam, like youth with a mission, if you know that. Just a lot of missionary type mentality. Anyway, my wife and I moved down there and we were actually living on Last Days Ministries property in a little mobile home. And just like, here am I, Lord, send me like whatever. So one was step up to play guitar. So after a few times, times maybe a few weeks or months of just playing guitar, there was a time where the pastor said after his message, hey Paul, come on up and lead us in a few songs while we have a time of prayer. Who, who needs prayer? You know, we're going to have a few prayer folks. Come on up and let's pray and yeah, Paul, just lead us. Well, that was not something I was used to doing. I, I was like, hey, I'm just, you know, one of the, I'm just a guitar guy here, you know, who sings bgv. So long story short, that was the beginning of just kind of getting up and leading a little bit and singing. And then he did that again within a week or two. And before you know it, he's like, hey Paul, why don't you put together we can't really pay you much, but we'll give you this, that room that's behind the platform. You can make that an office and just maybe put a team together, see what the Lord does. You know, that was the attitude. And it was like, that's literally what he said. So I remember having a big concordance, one of those old big books, you know, concordance, where it has every word in the Bible. And I remember looking up worship going through that book just over a period of a month or two. And I would just spend quiet time going through that and reading it. And anyway, so the life scripture for me was 1 Chronicles 16, 1 Chronicles 16, where the Lord gives David this paradigm to set up to take the. For the Levites to go into the tent of meeting. And their job description was to praise the Lord, to give thanks and pronounce blessing on the people. That's one of those verses that's worth looking up In Bible Hub, 1 Chronicles 16. Those first four verses there, from 1 to 4. Because it really is the job description of our role. As, if you will, like before we even stand up on a platform and lead anyone publicly, it really describes this sort of priestly, sort of defines very, very clearly what our role is, if you will, if we're called to ministry, this kind of music ministry, if you will. And that is to just spend time with the Lord. The Levites weren't. This was not a public thing. This was just between them and the Lord. They would give thanks, they would praise the Lord and then pronounce blessing. I like that particular translation on the people. I'll tell you why in a minute. Cause it's like the priestly and then the pastoral.
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Yep.
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And so I think there's a big emphasis a lot of times, maybe, I don't know, not trying to be too general here, but maybe a lot of times people are. They think leading worship. It's like the pastoral part. Get up with a guitar, it's got a scripture, got my song list. And it's always about the people, the people. But I love that you're bringing up this idea. And again, it's not your idea, my idea, It's. It's a scriptural foundational right there. And that is to minister to the Lord. So they ministered before the ark of the Lord is the quote in verse 4 of 1 Chronicles 16. Well, we don't have an ark anymore. So the idea of ministry to the Lord is such a key thing, and it's a foundation and was for me, as someone that I Didn't go to worship leader college, you know, like, I didn't. I felt very inadequate. And so just spending time during the week, I would oftentimes just go on the platform, turn on the PA and actually speak on the mic. Just because there was something about being in that physical place, physical proximity of where I'm going to be this Wednesday night or this Sunday. And over time, you have my Bible open, the psalms, and the song list, kind of our song. And I would just spend maybe, you know, 30, 30 minutes one day, maybe an hour another day, maybe only, you know, 15 minutes, maybe I whooped. Maybe one week go by, and I didn't do it that week. But the idea was just cultivating this ministry to the Lord where you're ministering to him in the secret place in private, as you say. I always remember that scripture. Jesus said, when ye pray, King James, when ye pray, go into your closet and pray to your father in secret. You know, and so a little bit of that mentality of just ministering to the Lord and cultivating that habit, if you will. Cultivating. And maybe initially for someone, it might be like, well, you know, it feels funny, like no one's here. And like, that's okay. You know, you kind of get used to just. Do we really believe in the invisible, immortal, omniscient, omnipresent God? Like, here he is, like in this. What seems like an empty room, but here he is. And so we begin to cultivate that for our own heart. And I'll just close this. Sorry it's such a long answer, but. But I guarantee. And I've just seen this in my own life. Just play it. I guarantee will impact how you lead come Sunday morning. You step into that actual physical place, you look out, and now there's people here. But in your mind, you're just, you know, I don't say it over the mic. Oh, by the way, last Tuesday morning, I just want you to know, I was here for an hour. Just me and the Lord. No, it's just something you're cultivating a private devotional life. And then you come out on a Sunday morning, you plug in right before you open your mouth, kind of look around, and you just have that sense of, like, you remember, Wednesday afternoon?
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I've been here before.
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Yeah, yeah. And so then you just whisper right before you open your mouth, Lord, hide your way, Lord, I just yield to you, Lord, have your way.
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You know, it's this personal worship you're talking about. I love the. The priestly function of it. It's not something honestly that we talk about. And frankly we use phrases like quiet time, which I think ends up diminishing what you're talking about. It's. It's going much deeper than just checking off. I read this page in my utmost for his highest and I sequestered 15 to do that. But I'm actually ministering to God alone. And I know, at least for myself, maybe I'm the only one in the room, but for myself the tension is found that I can get up and do the pastoral worship. If we're talking about two sides of the conversation, the personal worship and the pastoral worship, I can do the pastoral worship and be successful for a time. Let me just add that caveat. So nobody clips this and lack the personal worship. And what are the long term. Like, you know, we hear the, the medication commercials on tv. What are the long term unintended side effects of a ministry life where the pastoral worship is more stressed than the personal worship because it's visible and the personal can. It's unseen. What. What have you seen play maybe out in your own life, your own ministry, or others around you that to the person listening who needs to be kind of right set in saying, just because you can be outwardly successful in this and lack the personal does not mean you are being effective and healthy. Because our metrics have gone all over the place. I said a lot there. But your thoughts on the public side of that it can be successful and the personal side be lacking.
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Sure. Well said. I mean, I think it will catch up to you. I think, you know, from week to week you may not notice. From a month to month you may not notice. But it would be like not playing your guitar. Let's say you're a guitarist and maybe you've gone maybe a month or two. You ever gone a month or two without picking up your guitar? You were on vacation, you did this da da da. But all of a sudden you pick up that guitar. It's like you have to get re familiar with that. It feels almost foreign. So that's just maybe an analogy. But it's like you don't necessarily see it. It's not a visible thing. It's an unseen thing. But I just feel like I just didn't want to be a phony. I think fear of being a phony sort of motivated me sometimes, or I felt like I would be found out, which is maybe ridiculous because the truth is you can go pretty far if someone, especially if someone's really skilled vocally or they have a strong talent you know, you can sort of mimic this worship. You can mimic the people on YouTube that are, you know, really have a lot of experience and are a lot of skill and you can, some people can sort of get by. But I do think, especially in my earlier years, I was, you know, I only have maybe a one octave voice, maybe an octave and a half at most, you know, so I just felt like I'm 100% like, Lord, if you don't show up, like, this is going to be terrible. So, like really cultivating a dependency on like, apart from me, you can do nothing. That's like a life scripture. Like, Lord, apart from you just making noise, we're just adding to the noise, as Switchfoot said years ago. And I don't want to do that. And so, yeah, I think it sounds like a weird part of it. For me, the motivation was like fear of eventually being found as like a fraud or a counterfeit. I wanted to step up on the platform with as much integrity as possible. And like I said, there were times where like a week went by and it was a crazy week and I was da, da, da. And I never got around to that. Ministry to the Lord, that's fine. It's not another to do thing on your to do list. It's not a checklist and it's not a guilt trip either. But it's just an admonition, it's an exhortation to say, continue to contend for this, fight for this, even be willing to go to your leadership team and say, you know, heard these two guys talking about how this should be. This ministry to the Lord should actually be like part of my job description. Like, can we make it one of the bullet points? Because I don't see it on here. I see that you want me to do this and I'm over planning center and I'm in charge of this and I do kids ministry. But it's like ministry to the Lord, the Levites, the Levitical priesthood. Like I feel sort of convicted that like I really need to invest in that so that come Sunday morning I can minister from a well that's, you know, a well that's being cultivated. And this is not something that just happens overnight. Like you do three times you minister to the Lord and it's like, well, everything's different. No, no, this is, you don't know. It's not something you can buy. That's what's amazing about it. But it's like, what is that scripture? Humble yourself in the sight of the Lord. He will lift you up, like a little bit of. Think of that mentality of, like, as we humble ourselves, so to speak, with the dependency on the Lord, we show up. We know that we want to connect with the Lord. We want to cultivate our friendship with our God, with Jesus, and our personal worship times. We want to sing scripture because we could back up and maybe later we'll talk. Like, here's a few handles. Here's a few things, like, to get you started, but quickly. I just want to reaffirm that, make that, like, part of your job description, if you will, to maybe go to your leadership, say, can I maybe let go of one or two of these things so that I can. I want to devote at least collectively, maybe a couple hours a week of just me in the sanctuary on my instrument or on a mic with the scriptures open, singing the psalms, reading the psalms out loud, getting the vocabulary of worship off of the page and into my heart and so that it will come out of my mouth in between songs, maybe I used to think, like, how does Darlene Check do that? How to. Like, how does she do that? Between song number three and four is like, how did you come up with that? Well, as we spend time with the Lord, reading the word, reading it out loud, maybe putting a single note melody to us Scripture, all that begins to build into us so that all of a sudden, three months from now, we're in between song number three and four at the church, and the scripture just comes to mind as you go from this song to that. And you hadn't even thought of saying that, but that's when it gets exciting. That's like almost, some might say the prophetic, you know, the priestly, the prophetic, the pastoral. That's where you feel like you're starting to, like, hear from the Lord. The Holy Spirit is bringing up scriptures that you've stored in your heart during these times of ministry to the Lord, and that becomes exciting. Yeah, it's not just about getting through your five songs, but it's your. Your. Your heart is open to, like, in between. Is there, like. Anyway, it's.
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No, it's beautiful because I. I think I keep coming back to this. But most worship leaders, most of us were trained to lead. Very few of us were trained to minister in the secret place to God, to carry that priestly function. So you. You kind of. You did it already. But if there's any more handles to expound on, maybe I'm a. I'm a young leader who's feeling the weight of this, and I'm Saying, oh, I've actually been taught a ton about how to lead on a platform in front of a thousand people, but I have no idea how to navigate that moment with Jesus. Give me some practical handles. And part two of this would be to the person that has that conversation with their senior pastor or leader and says that personal time is not a part of your job. How do you navigate that question, if
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it were to be said, okay, first thing, part A. You know, a few practical things. Now, if you want. Over the years, I've probably said these things. If you just Google, like Balash ministry to the Lord. There's probably a couple over the years. Like, if you want to hear a little bit more extended version. But I would say in. In essence, to just get you started, like, put some training wheels on here and have your Bible open. Imagine that like an actual. A real Bible, I think is kind of with rice paper, you know, that you turn the pages and open that up to a particular. And so you're reading the scripture, maybe with a guitar in your hand or at the keyboard. Even if you don't play anything, have someone show you where middle C is just to get a key center. And as you're reading the psalm, then maybe put just one note and kind of just sing that psalm. You know, the Psalms, it's a songbook. It would be like buying a Beatles songbook and then never actually singing the song. You just go, hey, Jude, don't make it bad. Take a sad song, let it be. Whisper words of wisdom. No, no, the psalms were meant to be sung, and we don't know what the melody sounded like. So I just say, even if it's one note actually. Exactly. Quick song, or quick example of the song called you'd name back in the day. But it was just singing Psalm 63. I'm just kind of ringing. It says, as morning dawns and evening fades, you bring forth songs of praise. And I remember thinking, oh, that almost sounds like that could be the beginning of a Morning dawns and evening fades. Yeah, so. But that's not the point. This is not guitar practice time. It's not trying to write song time. It's really trying to, like, no strings attached, just showing up, just showing up. And in the beginning, 10 minutes might feel like an hour. But just get used to the initial awkwardness of like, well, here. Here we are. And so open your mouth and say to the Lord. And that's why we have the psalms to begin to help you begin that conversation with the Lord. Go ahead and speak out of Psalm. Psalm 92. It is good to praise the Lord, make music to your name, almost high. Amen. And then take that scripture. Now pray that Lord, I believe that I believe it is good. And then maybe you begin to just pick a little bit on your guitar or on the pianos, C chord. And it is good to praise you, Lord, and make music to your name. Lord, I pray that you teach me how to minister to you. Just I turn my heart to you. Teach me to come back to a heart of worship. It's all about you. I'm sorry, God, for this thing. I've made it. Oh, I'm sorry. I really am. I'm sorry for this thing. A commodity, a job. I'm sorry, God, just would you soften my heart? Would you somehow, by your grace, just make my heart tender again and childlike to believe? So that's one thing to do. Take a psalm, read it out loud, and then maybe put a melody to it. And when you find one particular part of that psalm, hang there for a little bit, make that a prayer and sing that to the Lord. And the other quick thing, another way is take a familiar look at your song list, some very familiar songs, and maybe, maybe one stands out. Start memorizing some of these songs, some of the older classics, if you will, like we just sang Heart of Worship. Like that should be almost a prayer that you memorize, Lord, when the music fades and all is stripped away and I simply come longing just to bring something that's of worth, something that will bless your heart. I want to bring you more than a song because that's not what you require. You search much deeper within. You look right through the way things appear. You're looking into my heart. So, God, I'm coming back to a heart of worship. So see what I'm doing here? I'm trying to model this, if you will. Give you a quick snapshot, Polaroid. But for those of you out there and you're like, what do you mean, minister to the Lord? These two things take. Take. Start to memorize little by little, some of these songs that really resonate with you, that. And turn them into a prayer. Speak those lyrics to the Lord. Sure, you can sing them, go ahead. And you can sing it, too. But then at some point, at some point, try to not look at the. Try to get it off of the page into your mind, into your heart. It becomes part of your prayer vocabulary. And like I said, three months from now, you're at the end of your set, you think it's over, and you're just lingering just a few 30 seconds there. And as you do, you say, lord, we've sung these songs to you this morning, but we know worship is more than a song because a song in itself is not what you require. We know you're looking into our hearts and God the best we know how we lift our hearts to you this morning and just receive our worship and our praise in Jesus name, Amen. And you know, you get off the platform and you. Someone says, hey, that was beautiful prayer. You're like, I hadn't planned on that. I was just so it's not about someone saying it. But my point is things will come out of your mouth, they'll rise up because you've taken time to store the word of God and just being in his presence. And then publicly, when you step on that platform, things will come, a scripture will come out, prayers will come out that you hadn't forethought, you hadn't. And in the beginning, frankly, it's not unspiritual if you're just, you know, you do prayerfully put your set list together and there is a scripture that comes to mind. You go after song number three. I think I'm going to recite the scripture. Go ahead, put that in there and just say, you know, after that third song, say, boy, that song just really reminded me of Psalm 42, where it says, why so downcast, O my soul? Put your hope in God bless the Lord. He's the lifter of our countenance. So I say amen. May the Lord lift our countenance. May he lift our spirits this morning as we continue to sing to him. And I'll look back and start the next song. You know what I mean?
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B
Yep. It's a beautiful picture of, you know, I'm sure somebody can list can listen to this and think, well, it sounds like I'm doing that so that I can lead and anything can be done in the. So that that's. It's the very definition of what religion is, is that becomes the thing that is the most important. But how often we get up on a stage intending or with the purpose and intention of pouring out from an empty jug, we've got no filling, we've got no words of scripture to pull from. And the people that I've seen lead me the. The closest to the heart of God, they've been there already. And I use this analogy often, but before we had GPS in our cars. If I was taking you, Paul, to a restaurant that I had been, but you had never been in the old days, some of you aren't young, old enough to remember. Paul would have to follow me because he had no thing that had his bearing of where he was and where this place was. He had to trust his intention and direction in the hands of someone that had been there before. And how I drive is different, but it's all pulling from a well of experience versus. And I think the other thing I would say is, what would you say to the worship leader who thinks that the platform on a Sunday or in the context of a gathering is there a moment to have that personal time with God? Because I've heard that argument too. How would you counter that with the, the priestly responsibility not to just minister to the Lord, but to minister to his bride? How do you, how do you juggle the two?
- [33:09]
A
Well, it generated some laughter and I'll tell you why in a second. But I do want to reiterate. You're correct. What I just described there and tried to just briefly. Model is not a technique. This is not like worship leading techniques. Oh, do this and then this will happen. It's like, ew, yuck. If that's what you took from that, please let me, let me quickly, quickly say no. We were created for his pleasure. All things were created for his pleasure. Okay? So we are his daughters, we are his sons, and it's learning to spend time with him. Another analogy would be Mary and Martha. Okay? In John, I think in John, chapter 10, where Jesus goes to Mary and Martha's house and Martha's like, a lot of us, she's busy, she's a worker. She's like, hey, we got a lot of stuff we got to do. But in this moment, Mary was just there at the feet of Jesus and Martha was, hey, what's up with this? I'm doing all the work. And in that moment, Jesus didn't beat up on Mary or Martha. I mean, and he didn't like, it wasn't a put down. I hear, like, him saying, hey, Martha, in this moment, I'm paraphrasing, okay? But he says Mary has chosen the better part. So it's not like the work doesn't have to be done. Yes, there's work that has to be done. And many of you watching this, you work hard. You're the first ones at church, you're volunteer, you're working with volunteers. You're the last of leaves. All that is like, amazing. But there is a time where Jesus said, choose the better part. Carve time out. Like Mary, sit at his feet where you're just gazing upon him or you're reflecting upon him. You're learning to listen to him. Even in the beginning when you're like, I don't hear anything. I don't know what you're talking about. Well, he's speaking through the scriptures. Read, get the scriptures in your heart over time. Over time. So he's speaking through the Scriptures. And then the Lord over time will teach you to kind of begin to pick up on that still small voice, that hunch, like a spiritual hunch, I call it. You just like in the middle and you're like, should we just move on or should we just pause a little bit here and just linger? And I'll just kind of do this at the bend, maybe just kind of like, let's just link. Let's stay here. Even that extra 30 seconds. Sometimes the Lord, you sense things. Do I get it right all the time? No, sometimes. And you only know that in hindsight. So that's what Sunday afternoon lunches are for, where you go, oh, man, I really thought that was the Lord telling me so. Hope that makes sense. Not a technique. There's a book, a secular book, but it's called Tuesdays with Maury. That is worth reading. It's a beautiful book. But the premise is that this older man, he had a disease and he was going to die eventually. And this younger man wanted to spend time with Mori. And so every Tuesday they would show up on this bench and they would meet and they would just spend time together. And that's what I'm trying to describe is just this desire to, like, be with the Lord and spending time with him. And in the beginning, it's unfamiliar and it's a little awkward and it's a little. I'm trying to warn you ahead of time, but just press through that, Hang in there and don't wait for the results. Don't say, hey, I've been doing this for two months. I don't feel anything different. No, no, just trust that the Lord. It's like, as we show up, as we pursue him, there will come a time where you sense words like, I'll use words like favor. You'll sense some kind of something. God's favor or an anointing. We use that word, we just sense something was different about this past Sunday. And more and more, you'll begin to sense his presence. You'll be more sensitive to his presence. It's not like he wasn't there before, but you're just. You're becoming more familiar with. And it's going to change you. It will change you and me by spending time with him, just being. And I emphasize the word being with him, because all of us, a lot of us watching this, we're doers, man. Just give me. Give us something to do. We want to do it.
- [37:19]
B
I'm guilty of that.
- [37:20]
A
Yep. Same. Oh, yeah. So to just have the faith, the Sabbath faith to rest, the Sabbath faith to go. There's a lot of work to do. But I'm just going to show up. I'm not trying to write a song. I'm not practicing my guitar. I'm just going to play enough of a chord here to give me a key center that I can take, a psalm that I can begin to build. Expand my worship vocabulary, if you will, by getting the psalms in my heart. And that begins to. It gives us more of a language to worship the Lord with.
- [37:55]
B
What would. What would you say to that leader that thinks that the pastoral. In this analogy, we're talking about private worship and pastoral worship. What would you say to the leader that thinks that the two are one and the same? Meaning that when I'm in the function of pastoral worship, I should be having my private worship.
- [38:16]
A
Yeah. Okay. That's why I did smile earlier when you mention that. Okay. At least this is my experience, my opinion, and that is Sunday mornings is more of a. My wife had the perfect analogy years ago, and that is of a waiter or a waitress where, you know, if you went to a restaurant, you show up, your waiter comes to the table, takes your order, and okay, thanks very much. And you're at your table, and there you are, and after 10 minutes, you don't see him. And 15 minutes goes by, and then finally you kind of look over like, huh, there's our waiter sitting down.
- [38:54]
B
Oh, that's perfect.
- [38:55]
A
Yeah. Eating his lunch. Like, hey, hey, man. All that to say Sunday mornings. That is typically not my most intimate time with the Lord because I'm preoccupied a little with my role, my role as a servant, my role to serve others. This is the role is to help others worship. So that's Sunday morning. So maybe quite often I do experience. Wow, thank you, Lord. Like, there's moments where. But in the beginning, I usually hear the opposite. People say, oh, you know, I just feel like it's hard for me to worship when I'm leading worship because, like, I'm. So I'm thinking about this. We have to start the next song. And in this song, there's kind of a modulation, I think, and then this one chord's really Hard for me. And so there's a lot of your word. Your voice is. I feel like I'm singing sharp, and I wish I could hear better. I got too much snare drum in my. Whatever. There's so many reasons, right? And I think.
- [39:59]
B
I think that that's why that. That waiter and diner analogy is a perfect picture. And credit to your wife for that. Because it's. I think, like anything, there's. There's a generation of worship leader that is trying to course correct the overproduction that the gathering of worship has become. That has carried some of that weight of, like, I'm only focused on making sure the click comes in on time, and I'm worried about the lighting, and we're worried about all these tertiary things that the Lord's probably, like, none of that matters. And so what tends to happen is an overcorrection instead of just a subtle, like, jolt of the wheel. And so the waiter analogy is perfect because how often are we recommending a dish that we have in ourselves tasted, right? And so that we would be. That we would carry the balance of understanding that on the platform when the sheep, the children of God, are in the room with us, that we are there to serve, because we've already been under the beauty of what the ultimate chef in the kitchen has cooked for us, and we've tasted it, and we're recommending it to watch the body of believers enjoy and feast on the beauty that is God. And so it's. It's maybe not an overcorrection, but it is a balancing of tension of what is my role there. I've got to eat, right? Every great waiter has to eat eventually. But in the function of serving and waiting, that has to be a thing that I've already done so that I can serve those that have come to dine. And that's a beautiful analogy. I love it.
- [41:33]
A
Good, good.
- [41:35]
B
There's something interesting about your particular journey, and I think a lot of this rolls in. There's a lot of worship leaders out there that want to be the writer, the Levite who is writing songs that the body sings. And I can see the first time I was around you, Paul, I was 18, 19 years old at a youth specialties conference. I was interning at a church, and you were at a breakout. And it was just you on your acoustic, and you talked for an hour while playing a chord progression. It was the most amazing thing, because what I saw in that moment has become clear how you got there. And it was that private ministry to the Lord. That it was just like second nature. Like, it was obvious that you have talked to him while playing your guitar. And I can see how that's literally produced songs that. That millions in the global church have sung. That obviously wasn't accidental. What's that relationship between the private depth and the creative output? How have you seen that play out in your songwriting journey for the church? And maybe speak to the person that's trying to write void of that kind of intimacy with God?
- [42:48]
A
Such a good question. You're really good at this.
- [42:51]
B
Some days, only on Fridays.
- [42:53]
A
Really well stated. See, I think the fruit, you know, the fruit of the spirit. The fruit is a byproduct. So, you know, ministry to the Lord is we're taking care of the roots. You know, we want to make sure the soil is healthy. We're putting our roots down deep into the soil of God's word, God's spirit. I would go to prayer meetings in our neighborhood sometimes. It might be a church I don't go to, but just to kind of hang in the back and hear other people pray. When I was dry, sometimes I would go to some of those, Just sit in the back and kind of hear people praying out loud and going after five or 10 minutes, me just kind of going, wow, Amen. Yes. Yes, Lord. You know, that's one of our responsibilities, is to keep our own heart alive toward the Lord. And we will walk through dry seasons, and, you know, we. There will be times where we're leading and we don't feel a thing. That's okay. Just know that's gonna happen. But you showed up, you've got your tools, and you're a waiter or, you know, waiter or waitress isn't inspired every time they're serving, you know. But we pray, we desire to be inspired. But I just wanted to say that so. So the fruit. One of the fruits, I would say, perhaps, is as you are in these times with the Lord, and you're spending a little extra time there, and you're reading a psalm, you're reading a prayer, you're reading this. Maybe you have a journal. This happened to me a lot. Like, I would journal a lot of things. Journal, sermons. If I was at a prayer meeting, I would write down, oh, wow, that was an incredible thing that she just prayed. Like, that's something we should actually sing. That's like, that could be a song that we sing someday. I was just constantly recording, writing down. I might as well just like an obvious one. Open the eyes of my heart. Just was a prayer. A guy I'm At a house meeting church here in New Jersey as a young believer. And he's like, there's 20 people in the room. Well, Lord, he's like, all right, let's pray before we get started. God, tonight, as we look into your word, we pray, you'd open the eyes of our hearts and give us insight and. And clarity as to your voice, et cetera, et cetera. Amen. You know, and again, in those days, I was just kind of writing down almost anything. And then at some point, when you are in these quiet times with the Lord, you're singing some prayers to him, some scripture, some song, maybe you look through your journal and you leaf through a few pages and you're like, you're in this prayerful mindset already. And maybe you look, oh yeah, oh yeah, I remember that. Another example that would be. Above all, I remember that being in my journal, the last page, I would. Anything that seemed like a possible title or a first line to a song, I would just sort of like, I goes on the back page. And then sometimes when I would be in these moments in the sanctuary by myself, I would open up to that back page, just kind of have it there. And as I'm in the. This worship frame of mind, I'd kind of look over and look at some of those things. And I remember this Tuesday morning at the piano. I'm not a very proficient piano player, but just can play chords. But I do remember just seeing that phrase above all. Not sure why, you know, there was a bunch of. A whole page full of possible. But that particular day when I say, I don't know where that phrase came from, sometimes I'll see a commercial now, now, since then, and it'll be like, these are the benefits and these are that and da, da, da. But above all, it will help you with your psoriasis or whatever, you know, And I just, you know, all that to say anytime a phrase from a prayer or a scripture or a sermon, write it down. It doesn't hurt to write it down. So anyway, that particular day, and I do remember just on an A chord and just saying above all, what could you say to the Lord? I'm in that prayerful mindset. So I'm saying this on behalf of those that are interested and maybe instead of trying to come up with clever ideas and, you know, let me get this going. Like, I think the best, healthiest place maybe to generate songs that others can sing, worship songs, would be in that private, secret time of worship. And you take a phrase and just begin, maybe Open that up. What could I say about the Lord or to the Lord with this phrase? You're above all powers. You're above all kings, all creation, every seven wonders of the world. All wonders the world is ever known. Above all wisdom. Yeah, let's see. Above all treasure. Above all wealth. Yeah. Above all, like, just to declare those things. So again, in the moment, I was like, I'm writing a song. Wrong. No, it was more like, yes, you're above all. You know, like in Isaiah, your ways are higher than our ways. Your thoughts are not our thoughts. Your thoughts are. You know, your ways are higher in that spirit. Just. You're. Again, you're praying scripture. You're kind of half singing, half praying. You're in this frame of mind that is devotional. And I believe that out of that, and I know that from experience. Again, a lot of songs you've never heard of, even the bad songs, songs that I thought were good at the time, that never really. But at least in that moment, I want to. They were prayers that I thought I could construct this in a way maybe that others can sing. This is before there was no CCLI or multi tracks or all that good stuff. It was just at best, maybe this is a song that our church could sing. If we can shape this in a way, finish it. That would be so amazing if, like, hey, guys, here's something that pastor preached on last month. And I wonder if it's a pretty simple course. Maybe we just try this together. Do you remember when he was preaching on God's mercy? So, yeah, we'll just kind of teach this simple chorus. And that's what it felt like. It's beautiful. That's what we did back in the day.
- [49:05]
B
Well, it's, you know, it's my job in these conversations, kind of like a tour guide to just pause and just kind of say, hey, did you. Did you see that little thing right there? Here's the story behind it. What. What you just saw was the. A lot of us as songwriters, I know I've been guilty of this is I believe that I can have a moment of just profound thought apart from a daily discipline of going to the well. Now, I don't get the well to go get the profound thought, but the songs that transcend is. There's a reason why I read some stat that you had like the most and that this is not why you do it. And this is again, I want to, as a tour guide, just highlight this. But there's a reason that Paul has written songs that he's had the most songs on, the most sung across the churches across the world for the longest amount of time. Because those songs, he didn't go to a well expecting it to not, you know, to give him what he needed in an instant. He showed up to the well because it was what he was ministering to the Lord. And those songs have transcended generations and. And I think for. It's convicting for me, because I expect in a moment of just desperation to show up to the well and for it to just pop up a There's a hit, the church is going to sing forever. And God's economy doesn't work that way. It's a daily discipline of going to the well and drinking that in the moment where you need it. And it resonates with the global church. It's going to be at the right time because you've shown up. And I love the fact that you've got a discipline, whatever that is for you as a songwriter who's listening, have disciplines of where you're recording those moments with the Lord. Again, you're not recording those moments to hopefully get a great song, but that you do a good job of be a good steward of those words that he gives you and keep an account of that. I also say for worship songwriters like, we're the scribes of the church who are meant to keep an account of what the Lord's done in our midst so that the people of God, which we're all one, we are very forgetful. And so we need to be reminded of what he's doing. So have the discipline, record it, write it down, because there will be a moment where you'll need to go and grab it. I do want to talk to you, Paul, before we wrap up on a couple things about your new project coming up. I've noticed, at least in my leadership, and maybe it's because I'm older, but I do see a resurgence of songs that are 20 years old, 30 years old. And I'm not just talking about the hymns of the 1800s or whatever, but like these older songs coming back into the flow of our services. You obviously see that as one of the writers of those songs. What do you think is behind that? Why is that? What's the. Have you noticed that?
- [51:51]
A
Sure. Like, I haven't really thought about that, but yeah, in general, it is interesting that you'll. You'll kind of hear an older chorus kind of maybe at the end of a set, kind of thrown in. Sometimes it's spontaneous. Maybe it's because there's a sense that, that probably all the generations in this gathering know this. So we might sing I exalt thee or. Or Here I Am to worship or you know, heart of worship. We were singing a bit, you know, there's some, maybe there's a little bit of that at play. There's two or three generations that have some spiritual recollection of that song. And it resonates. Yeah, interesting. Maybe they were simpler too. Simpler in that oftentimes newer songs, it's fascinating even to be still writing, even occasionally going to Nashville, go into a room, write with some other writers, which I love to do. And it's grateful to still be able to be part of that. But quite often it's like my temptation is man, we've got a strong verse, strong chorus. Why do we need three more verses? I mean, maybe one more verse and. Or quite often I'll be like, man, really great verse. Second verse is feeling really strong. Like I love that. And the chorus just feels. It's like, oh, now we gotta write a bridge. And it's like, I mean, maybe, but does every song have to have a bridge that takes us into this whole other room?
- [53:19]
B
It needs to have four stanzas of four completely different lines for each stanza.
- [53:25]
A
Probably you, you may have studied it, but, but I'm, I'm, you know, I miss the day sometimes, like verse, chorus. Oh, let's go back and repeat that verse again because like, let's really get it down in our hearts and hit that chorus maybe a little bit. Eight bars of like a solo or just something. And we come back and sing it down. Chorus and then bring it back up one more time. And I don't know not to say that I. The longer, bigger song. But sometimes you're like, now we're like eight minutes. What's going on here? It's like so all that to say, I think maybe more and more these days you kind of get to the end or somewhere in a set and people just want something simple that everybody knows. They don't even have to have the words on the screen and they can just maybe, I don't know. I always encourage the songwriters don't write for the church with a capital C. I would encourage you to take that pressure off of you. You don't have to write songs to compete with. With those incredible YouTube bands. You know those churches that are massive and they've got incredibly talented, good looking people. And then I would go back to my church in Texas and be like, we don't look like that. We don't sound like that. Like, we'll probably never be that. Because we were all volunteer and they were just good folks of various generations. And I love that. Just. And we're just so all that. Say, maybe your church looks more like that and so you're not in competition to sound like or look like. Exactly. But just this one thing is write songs for the people that you know. Write songs for that family that just went through that really difficult time last year. For that widow that lost her husband in the last six months. For that teenager that's going through a real challenge. You remember that kid when he was only 12 and now he's 18 and he's kind of going through a rough. Like, get those people in your heart. That's the pastoral part of you. And right out of that, at. And at best, think of how exciting it would be to write a simple chorus that you get to share with your church.
- [55:24]
B
It's good, Paul.
- [55:24]
A
And your church starts singing it like, just start there. Yeah, just. That's good. That's a. That's good. That's enough.
- [55:32]
B
And I. That's what I was going to say just in admonishing and encouraging you like, man, the first worship set I ever led, it was horrible. I was a subpar B string drummer who picked up a guitar, had some decent rhythm and there was a need on a Wednesday night. And one of the two songs I knew was Open the Eyes of My Heart, Lord. And to hear you just kind of process your process, knowing how that song shaped me in my personal worship and my pastoral worship. It's just a blessing to have you in this conversation and pouring out your wisdom and to watch God's favor on your life as you've just been faithful to serve a group of people that he's called you to God in his economy and his grace and mercy and blessing poured out for that song to reach the church. But to hear the heart behind it of a guy who's like, I didn't write that for millions of people to sing for decades. I wrote it for some people in my church to sing is encouraging and beautiful and I love the simplicity around. Yes, we believe your new project. Obviously you were in a room with some great dudes. I love Mitch, I love Benji, the creed type nature of that song. And just talk to us about that song specifically, which is the title track for the whole album recorded here in Dallas, which, by the way, I didn't get the text, the invite to come hang out. I don't know how I missed the. I missed It I probably wasn't in town, but talk to us about the album.
- [57:07]
A
Yeah, well, it was recorded live at Christ for the nations, which is a university that's been around for over 70 years.
- [57:14]
B
Robert Quintana.
- [57:15]
A
Exactly. What a sweetheart. So yeah, they opened up back in the day when I was in Texas leading Quite often I would go to Christ for the nations and do maybe a chapel and a few teachings. And there was always a bit of a kindred spirit over the years. So it was really fun to go back. And you know, there's students from maybe 50 different nations this particular night, the recording. And we recorded about seven new songs and maybe two sort of familiar ones. Did two in Spanish with. Had a couple guests, Danilo. And anyway, yes, We Believe is the title song, if you will, and came out of real quick. Just here's a little songwriter inside track here. So sometimes I just described, you know, you're by yourself, you're ministering to the Lord, but other times you find a few other people that you trust musically and spiritually and you get with them and you get in a room and you say, hey, for the next three, four hours, let's see if the Lord will, you know, maybe we can write something that will help others worship him. So we'll glorify God and help others worship him. That's the criteria in my mind, like if you want to like two bullet points. It's like I want to glorify God and I want to write something that will help others worship. Where it feels like an authenticity prayer, where you're singing a prayer. So anyway, we're waiting for Mitch. He was on a phone call and hey, Benji, da da da, what's been going on? And I said man, you, you, you do this a lot. Like you're one of these writer guys that you're showing up in rooms and like, what's that like? Because with other guys, you know, and he goes, well, you know, anyway, he's just. You're a little conversation. And he said something, you know, you know, you get, you write da da da and you try, you do your best. But at the end of the day like, like, you know, do we really believe? Like every song's going to be some big deal, you know, it's like not really, but just when I heard him say do we really believe that you know, it's going to be. I just kind of. And that happens a lot when I'm co writing. I'm just kind of like listen to that person talk a little bit. So when he Was finished. And then out comes mess. I'm like, okay, Benji, you said something just in passing, but do we really believe? Like, do we really believe? It kind of makes me go like, do we really believe? Like in the resurrection? Like, do we really believe in this place called heaven? Do we really believe in a man named Jesus? That he died to say? Do we believe in that? We need forgiveness. Like, it just like, maybe that's a good starting point. So that became a place to start of. Like, let's begin to write some of that down. Do we really believe? You know, so you're, you're just not trying to edit yet, trying to think too much about it. You're just trying to like react and be like, like in the moment and like I oftentimes as a writer, when I'm in this mode, I picture my Sunday morning. I picture faces, I picture the church people standing and it's like, can I picture them standing and singing? Do we really believe in a man named Jesus? That he died to save us on a Roman cross? Do we really believe? Like, that helps me to imagine and you know, fast forward, like reality and like picture. Can I picture my church multi generation singing this back to the Lord? So beautiful. So, yeah. And then what's your obvious response if you were in the room, Chris? So you kind of. Do we really? Do we really? Do we really? Then what's our course? Yes, yes, yes, we believe. Like, that's the obvious.
- [60:47]
B
Like, absolutely doesn't sing as well. So yes is way better. Better affirmative.
- [60:52]
A
We have to give people a chance to say yes, yes, yes, Lord. But it's also, you know, when it was kind of getting near finished, I thought it's really an opportunity to take inventory of your heart. Like, what do I really believe? And like the disciples, they struggled with some areas of unbelief. They were like, we believe, we believe, Lord, but help our unbelief belief. And I think there are areas maybe that some of us struggle with. Like, you know, I, I struggle with belief in this area. I don't know, way healing or this or that or that, you know.
- [61:27]
B
Yep.
- [61:28]
A
It could be a lot of different things. But anyway, thanks for asking. Yeah.
- [61:32]
B
No, Paul, that songs minister to me. I know as I talk to worship leaders often, I put a lot of emphasis on the diet of songs in our, in our song banks because they're teaching our people whether we intend the things we're teaching about God and the diet of the song that is confessional in that again, that creed type language of these are the Absolute truths that we rally around. No matter our upbringing, if we are in Christ Jesus, we believe these things to be true as a. Again, a server, a waiter, to use that analogy again, as part of your job is to rally the confession of faith around the theological truths of who God is. And there's something beautiful when a unified voice is lifting it. When I could look down the row and be like, dude, I know they're walking through the hardest days in their marriage, and even still, they believe it's lifting my faith. And that we need those kind of songs in our diet of songs in our churches. Yes, there's songs of prayer. Yes, there's songs of. Of praise. There also needs to be songs of confession and declaration and calling ourselves to faith, even long before maybe we even believe it. And so, dude, thank you so much for that song. I want to wrap up with two questions. There's somebody who remembers a question I asked you, and I don't want to forget it because I want to give attention to it. I asked the question of, you go to your senior pastor and you ask, hey, I. I need some time to minister to the Holy Spirit. And the response is, that's something you need to do on your own time. What would you advise the worship leader to do in that scenario? Or the senior pastor who may think that way? What would you say to that? Because there may be somebody who's wrestling with that, that needs that wisdom.
- [63:24]
A
I would say, if I was in your shoes, I would say to the pastor, you're right. Right. You're. You're right. That is something that I personally need to be doing, of course. But I, again, blame it on us.
- [63:38]
B
I know two guys on a podcast.
- [63:41]
A
I'm just saying, like, because just to sort of say, you know, I. I agree with you. You're right. I. I need to be cultivating that 247 relationship with the Lord, you know, to turn my heart towards the Lord a thousand times a day, to learn to walk with him, to abide with Him. I totally get it, Pastor, but I was listening to this podcast, and these two worship leader guys were just talking about the importance that it's actually the role and function in 1 Chronicles 16 of the Levites. You know, again, you tread respectfully on some of these topics. So as a worship leader at a church with three different pastors over those 25 years, you take a humble, humble position. You, not fearfully, but gently just say, what do you think about this, Pastor? What do you think about this? I was listening to these two guys, and I really would like to devote more time to just coming into the sanctuary and just ministering to the Lord. I really want to try that and cultivate that. But I'm just acknowledging to you that understandably, I've got this Martha list checklist of things I have to do every week. And I'm, I'm willing to do that, of course, but I'm wondering if you could, maybe there's something I could delegate.
- [64:55]
B
It's a good way.
- [64:56]
A
Maybe there's one or two things I could delegate that would just free me up just a little bit to make this a priority. And then I'll ask you, Pastor, hold me accountable. That each week I spend at a minimum like a 30 minute period here and another 30 minute period there where I've actually gone into the sanctuary that's empty. And I've actually, with the Bible open and my song list and my journal and my instrument, and I'm learning to minister to him so that my prayer is number one. That I grow in my walk with the Lord, that I grow in maturity and strength. But in addition to that, the fruit, the potential fruit of that will impact our Sundays.
- [65:41]
B
That's a masterclass in that conversation. I know it can happen and I know it has for some leaders and them navigating that from a place of humility. But just clarity is really helpful. Our multitracks conference kicked off last November. It was the first one we'd ever done. And this is kind of my public acknowledgment that I want to invite you to in some way, shape or form to be a part of it in the future. But we always kind of, we kind of frame the conversation at conference around a few questions. What is worship? What is a worship leader? The role of worship leader. I want to ask you as we close, maybe is it just a father in the faith to some younger worship leaders? Another question that we ask is what's in the way? Another way of saying that is what have we let get in the way of our role? And how would you encourage the worship leader, one, to shove that thing out of the way? So acknowledge what, what is in the way for someone listening today? And then how would you give them advice to get that thing out of the way to just make a return back to this role of priest? Oh, okay. If you're on audio, Paul is right now symbolically lifting his iPhone, which is incredibly damaged.
- [67:00]
A
Yeah, I would say we are the most distracted generation ever. It's funny, I posted Shameless Plug here just last night. The opening song of the new album, the first line is, just for a moment, can we leave the world behind us? Just for a moment, can we fix our eyes? That said, just for a moment, can we fix our eyes on Jesus? There is no other reason that we stand and sing these songs. Just for a moment, can we give our full attention to the matchless king of heaven who's worthy of it all? And so the whole premise of the song is to sort of start off, say, hey, guys, time. Just for a moment, can we give God our full attention? Like, we say we love him, we want to worship him, but how about at a minimum, we give him our full attention? How about we start there? Like, imagine that just what is the scripture in Hebrew that just came to mind, Laying aside the weight and sin that so easily distracts us, we're fixing our eyes on Jesus. So I would say do an inventory of your life, of your time, of how you spend your time. And I'm always shocked and ashamed how much I allow myself to be on the phone, like, just looking at these apps. And of course, it's easy to beat up on the phone. I'm grateful for it in a lot of ways. But I also know that, man, after 10 minutes on Instagram, I think, what am I doing here? I did not have that distraction. When I described an hour ago, I described this time going to the church. No one else was there. I have this concordance. I'm looking at worship. There was not like a phone on my desk. There was no notifications. It was just uninterrupted time to just quote, unquote, waste. That's another image. I love that image where this woman had this bottle of perfume, and she goes to Jesus and she pours this, like, Chanel number five, you know, like the most expensive perfume ever. And Judas, he reacted to that. He was real upset about it because he's like, hey, this was totally impractical. We could smell that perfume, sold that on ebay. And so. Exactly, Chris. That's the word waste. And I remember back in the day, that was something the Lord gave me. Just come and waste your time with the Lord. Waste, quote, unquote. Waste that time to the flesh. It feels like. Like a waste of time. And yet think of how much time we waste on these apps. I'm not saying never, ever check it out. But literally, I'm like, all right, I'm going to get on here for five minutes, going to try to see a few people. I follow. Boom, boom, boom. Then I'm out of here. Sure enough, 20 minutes later, it's like I got sucked into some algorithm. Usually guitars, you know, or some Beatles
- [69:47]
B
thing maybe, or some guy just reciting Beatle lyrics and not singing them.
- [69:52]
A
Right, right, exactly. Anyway, so I would say that's my number one thing saying to you. That was a very good question. And that's my thing is all of us have to fight, find our way to limit our use, not say, you know, we thank God for all the wonderful tools that this phone allows us to have. However, we've allowed it to really occupy way more time than we really should. And imagine what if you spend three to four hours a day on your phone. Imagine if you could cut that down, just maybe an hour, you know, and now all of a sudden, that opens up three hours of your life to be able to like go into the sanctuary for 30 minutes, you and your instrument, and just sing out loud and nobody else can hear you and you're just on. You're not self conscious. You can just sing your prayers to the Lord. Oh, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're just, you're beginning to practice his presence. There's an old book from the 1500s called Practicing the Presence of God. A little thin book. Look that up and buy that. You can read it in about 30 minutes. But it's basically practicing the presence of God. Just imagine that. Imagine I'm telling you it's life changing. But don't wait. Just do it by faith and don't look back or look for results. Just trust that as you do that the Lord, you're going to begin to experience more of him, more of his presence.
- [71:16]
B
A moment in his presence never wasted.
- [71:20]
A
Man.
- [71:20]
B
Paul, thank you so much for your encouragement to the body of Christ, your plantedness, your rootedness, your wisdom. And I'm grateful that you have contributed the gifts that God's given you. Really, the outpouring of your personal relationship with Jesus through song has just been such an encouragement to so many. We honor you and we thank you.
- [71:42]
A
Thank you. Praise God. Thanks, Chris.
- [71:48]
B
I don't know about you, but there's something really grounding and encouraging about hearing from someone who has been doing this for decades and still talks about worship the same way, with wonder, with humility, and a deep sense that it's another not about them. I think that's the invitation for all of us, whether you're leading worship this Sunday at a church of 50 or 5,000. Stay close to Jesus, lead from an overflow, and keep showing up faithfully because the work you're doing matters more than you know. If this conversation was helpful to you, encouraged you, would you share it with someone on social media? Share it with your team and if you haven't already, subscribe so you can stay in the know when the next episode launches. But until then, lead worship.
- [72:38]
A
Well.