Ep. 50: The Wolfpack, NFA - Benefits of a Wolfpack

Summary

Podcast Summary: Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table
Episode 50: The Wolfpack, NFA - Benefits of a Wolfpack
Release Date: August 25, 2024
Host: Berlin Maza

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Introduction

In the landmark 50th episode of Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table, host Berlin Maza welcomes the members of the Wolfpack, a tightly-knit group of firefighters who bonded during the National Fire Academy's Command and Control multi-alarm incidents. This diverse assembly, spanning various regions across the United States, delves into the profound benefits of having a supportive and collaborative network within the fire service. The conversation explores themes of mentorship, relationship-building, personal and professional growth, and the critical role of emotional intelligence in leadership.

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The Formation and Essence of the Wolfpack

Berlin Maza initiates the discussion by introducing the Wolfpack, highlighting its origins at the National Fire Academy (NFA) and its evolution into a supportive brotherhood that transcends regional boundaries.

Scott Booth elaborates on the group's genesis:

"[...] we left there, we got the text thread started and it's been non-stop for almost five years now."
[05:34]

Nathan Travis adds:

"These gentlemen give me a lot of confidence and... there's nothing better. And if you're listening right now, you need to get yourself a wolf pack."
[05:53]

The Wolfpack comprises eight seasoned professionals, including Assistant Chiefs, Battalion Chiefs, and Captains from diverse geographical locations, each bringing unique perspectives and experiences to the table.

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Building Relationships and Camaraderie

A central theme of the episode is the importance of building strong relationships within the fire service. The members discuss how their shared experiences at the NFA fostered deep connections that have been pivotal in their personal and professional lives.

Ben Thompson reflects on the bonding experience:

"It really just encourages a safe way to experience that next level up without the overwhelming pressure of being the decision maker from one day to the next."
[38:31]

Jason Lundin attributes much of the group's cohesion to Battalion Chief Troy Gibson:

"He really stepped up that first day and you could tell it was a mission for him to get us together."
[10:05]

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Benefits of Having a Wolfpack

The Wolfpack serves as a critical support system, offering diverse benefits:

1. Professional Growth and Development

   • Members share policies, prepare for interviews, and assist each other through career advancements and personal challenges.
   • Nathan Travis emphasizes the group's role in his promotions:

     "I have promoted twice through my association with the wolf pack."
     [06:26]

2. Emotional Support and Resilience

   • The collective strength helps members navigate personal tragedies and professional setbacks.
   • Deanne Bruce underscores the emotional backing:

     "The more time you spend in the service, the more you realize that you really don't know more than you think."
     [58:48]

3. Knowledge Sharing and Innovation

   • Exposure to diverse perspectives enhances problem-solving and adaptability.
   • Ben Thompson notes:

     "There's a whole lot of dad jokes... and a whole lot of fun."
     [57:48]

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Developing and Mentoring the New Generation

A significant portion of the episode centers on mentorship and the cultivation of future leaders. The Wolfpack members share strategies for effectively mentoring newcomers and integrating the evolving Gen Z within their ranks.

Battalion Chief Troy Gibson shares his mentorship philosophy:

"It's about the family approach... be open to learning and teaching because it's an evolving job."
[32:19]

Scott Booth advises new company officers to prioritize personal growth:

"Fill your own cup before it's going to overflow to your crews."
[71:01]

Nathan Travis highlights the impact of peer support:

"I've used this group to help sharpen me to be a better mentor."
[48:55]

James Satterfield encourages active engagement:

"Never be afraid to ask that senior firefighter for help."
[41:19]

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Emotional Intelligence and Self-Awareness

The discussion shifts to the importance of emotional intelligence (EI) and self-awareness in effective leadership. The group critiques the current training paradigms, noting the absence of soft skills development in standard firefighter training programs.

Deanne Bruce points out:

"It's super uncomfortable... but we have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable."
[61:01]

Scott Booth anticipates a cultural shift:

"It's coming to the fire service... it's just the next step into making our fire service better."
[63:37]

The group collectively advocates for integrating EI and self-awareness into early career development, arguing that these skills are essential for personal growth and effective leadership.

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Recommendations for Leadership Development

The Wolfpack members recommend a variety of resources to foster leadership skills, including books, seminars, and continuous education. They emphasize proactive engagement and personal investment in leadership growth.

Book Recommendations:

• Ben Thompson: Leadership Lessons from D-Day by John Antle.
• Jason Lundin: Leadership on the Line by Ronald Heifetz and Marty Linsky.
• Deanne Bruce: Wooden on Leadership by John Wooden.
• Scott Booth: Leaders Eat Last by Simon Sinek.
• James Satterfield: Works by Simon Sinek, Jocko Willink, and Marcus Aurelius.
• Kevin McDonnell: The 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership by John Maxwell.

Practical Advice:

• Seek diverse mentorship across all ranks.
• Invest in self-growth through education and emotional intelligence programs.
• Lead by example and prioritize the well-being of your crew.

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Conclusions and Key Takeaways

The episode concludes with each member sharing succinct takeaways, reinforcing the central message: having a Wolfpack is non-negotiable for reaching one's full potential in the fire service. They emphasize the following:

• Relationships Matter: Building and maintaining strong relationships at all levels fosters a supportive and resilient workforce.
• Invest in Yourself: Continuous personal and professional development is crucial for effective leadership.
• Embrace Vulnerability: Being open and vulnerable enhances trust and mentorship effectiveness.
• Lead by Example: Demonstrating care and integrity inspires others to follow suit.

Final Thoughts from the Wolfpack:

"Relationships matter at all levels. Take care of your crew, and they'll take care of you."
[80:25]

Berlin Maza wraps up the episode by encouraging listeners to form their own Wolfpacks, invest in their personal growth, and lead with intentionality and curiosity.

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Notable Quotes

• Scott Booth: "Do the right thing at all times... show people you care."
  [51:23]

• Deanne Bruce: "Invest in learning more about ourselves as individuals."
  [54:23]

• Nathan Travis: "If you want to go far and fast and robust, get yourself a pack."
  [57:18]

• Kevin McDonnell: "Relationships matter at all levels. Take care of your crew, and they'll take care of you."
  [80:25]

• James Satterfield: "You'd be robbing yourself of the opportunity to expand your brotherhood and camaraderie."
  [79:08]

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Final Recommendations

For listeners seeking to enhance their leadership capabilities within the fire service, the Wolfpack offers invaluable insights and resources. By fostering strong relationships, embracing continuous learning, and prioritizing emotional intelligence, firefighters and leaders can elevate both their personal and professional lives.

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Be Safe, Be Intentional, and Stay Curious!

Transcript

[Berlin]

Welcome everybody to the Kitchen Table. The Kitchen Table is brought to you by the First Responder Liaison Network. The network is organized for the development, implementation and ongoing support of mentorship and professional development programs inspiring our youth and young adults to mature into engaged civic leaders and resilient community sentinels. Music and graphics are brought to you by Kylephant Productions. And Today on the 50th episode of the Kitchen Table, I bring to you the Wolf Pack. This is a group that came together by attending the National Fire Academy Command and Control multi alarm incidents. They quickly gelled and have stayed connected throughout the years, supporting each other personally and professionally. The Pack truly believes there is strength in numbers and the philosophy that iron sharpens iron. The Wolf Pack goes beyond just one class or shared experience. This is a group of firefighters from literally across the country, from Alaska, Hawaii, Hawaii, the West coast, the Midwest and all the way to the East Coast. All who share a passion for learning with an understanding that we are all truly stronger together. It is a group that has truly embraced their brotherhood within the fire service. They have helped each other by sharing policies, prepared each other for interviews and helped each other throughout personal tragedies. The Wolfpack has continued to push each other to grow beyond their current capabilities to add another tool to the toolbox. Right now, multiple members have traveled across the country and are at Fri the IFC Fire Rescue International in Dallas, working to make themselves better and looking for ideas and ways to bring knowledge home to make their departments better and stronger. For the first time on the Kitchen Table, we host a group of dedicated fire service individuals. We have eight members of the Wolfpack here today. We've got Scott Booth, a 30 year veteran of fire and emergency services, the current Assistant Chief of Health and Safety with Gig harbor fire and medic one in Washington state. Deanne Bruce, a 27 year veteran of the fire service, a Senior Captain with 25 years at the Anchorage Fire Department. Nathan Travis, a Battalion Chief, Little rock Fire Department. 31 years in the fire service, both volunteer and professional. James Satterfield, 23 year veteran of the fire service, 21 years with the city of Danville, Virginia. Fire Department Captain Kevin McDonald, 22 years with the city of Holyoke, Massachusetts. Third generation firefighter and U.S. army veteran. And finally, we have three individuals who orchestrated today's leadership conversation with previous appearances on the Kitchen Table. We have a newly promoted Battalion Chief, Troy D. Gibson Jr. Of the Big island of Hawaii. We have Battalion Chief Ben Thompson of Birmingham, Alabama and Captain Jason Lundin with Renton Regional Fire Authority Department. Just east of Seattle from. From company officer training officer, captain, battalion chief to assistant Chief, this wolf pack has representation in a variety of ranks and perspectives, which makes them truly a strong, cohesive team. A lot of experience and passion on the kitchen table today. Hello, everybody, and thank you for making this happen. How's everybody doing?

[Scott Booth]

We're all doing well.

[Troy Gibson]

Good.

[Deanne Bruce]

Real good.

[Berlin]

And that's the howling. We'll, I'm sure, talk a little bit about that if our listeners don't know what that is from quite yet. But I understand many of you are at Fri this week. A few of you are actually in the same room together. Thank you, Troy, for making this happen and would love to join you guys. The future Conference. I never did get back to you, Troy. I know you threw an invite out there. I feel embarrassed I never got back to you. Life hit. But I hope everyone is enjoying the conference this week. How's that going, by the way?

[Troy Gibson]

It's going fantastic.

[Nathan Travis]

Excellent. Yes, Fri is a good conference.

[Berlin]

It's today. The last day, second day. How many days were there, you guys?

[James Satterfield]

Technically, the first day.

[Berlin]

Oh, today was just the first day.

[Nathan Travis]

Yep.

[James Satterfield]

For a pre conference class, that's what it was.

[Berlin]

Got it. Well, this conversation is going to be deep. This is now episode 50. And just about every single episode, our guests have talked in some shape form or another about the importance of building relationships. Obviously the relations that you guys have there, you know, in the wolf pack. We'll talk about the wolf packs. We talked specifically here in a minute, but we've also talked about mentorship, reaching inside and also outside your fire department to become better. We've also talked about gaining new perspectives. And I think it goes without saying that's what this group is. So if someone will start us off, tell me about this wolf pack.

[James Satterfield]

Well, brilliant. The. The first thing we got to do is actually say Congratulations. Episode number 50.

[Kevin McDonnell]

It's awesome.

[Berlin]

We're all listeners.

[James Satterfield]

We've really appreciated every conversation that you've had and that we thank you. Think it's really important to the fire service, and you're making us all better. And, you know, you're already a. A member of the wolf pack now, too.

[Berlin]

I appreciate that. Wow, that's. That's humbling.

[Scott Booth]

Wow.

[Berlin]

I did not. This is not scripted, but I appreciate that. I appreciate you all for including me in conversation. I think that's kind of what this is all about. So thank you for those kind comments, everybody. Uh, so the wolf pack. Tell me more.

[Scott Booth]

All right, well, I'll just start. This is Nathan Here and I'll get started. We all just joined like we said before. We joined this nice little class, National Fire Academy. We all went up there. There's a large number of us in the, in the class. It didn't take but a day or two and we were, we seemed to jail really quick. Started bouncing ideas off each other, you know, taking some time for some refreshments in the evenings and doing some great networking and it just seems like each and every one of us had something offered to somebody else. And once we, we left there, the, we got the text text thread started and it's been non stop for almost five years now. So I mean.

[Berlin]

Five years. Wow.

[Scott Booth]

It's been going on five years. Yes. It's pretty awesome. It's been pretty amazing. We've, a lot of these guys have, have grown. We've watched them grow through the ranks. They've been promoted, they've shared life experiences together and there's not a better group of people I would try to grow myself with. So it's been great.

[Nathan Travis]

And this is Dan. Yeah, this the, the concept behind the pack. We kind of fell into it organically. It's, I know for me personally it's really emboldened me and helped push my game forward. I have promoted twice through my association with the wolf pack. And I tell you, these gentlemen give me a lot of confidence and, and not only a lot of confidence, but a lot of knowledge and a lot of love and I mean there's just, there's nothing better. And if, if you're listening right now, you, you need to get yourself a wolf pack.

[Berlin]

A question I have on that real briefly is, is you all gelled at the nfa, most of you were close, I guess on the east coast, more or less. Some of you obviously traveled all the way across the country and you built this relationship. Is it unique to the nf? You know, you guys gelled from the nfa. Have you experienced to where you went to a conference near your house? Conference at Fri, we'll say, for example, you know, a conference, a city next, next door. And were you able to build that camaraderie and have a group text read so on and so forth from a smaller conference, or is that from nfa? I guess where I go with that is is it necessary to go to the NFA to build such a strong cohesive unit, if you will, like you.

[Deanne Bruce]

Guys, this is Jason.

[James Satterfield]

I'll, I'll go. So I don't think it's necessary to go to the nfa. However, this Group of guys. For me, I haven't been this close to another group of guys from the fire service since probably I went through my volunteer fire academy 20 years ago. There's something very special and dynamic about the men that we have in, in this group. But I, you know, I think, I think as long as you get like minded individuals who have a passion for the service, they, and a strong drive to get better and better, you're going to be able to find a way to make your own pack. I will say the NFA is great, Fantastic. I've enjoyed several classes there and I've been close with several of the people from each class. But there was just something extra special about every single member who went through this class together with us.

[Deanne Bruce]

Go ahead, Kev.

[Ben Thompson]

Okay. So yeah, I would agree with these guys. I think, you know, we kind of went at a tough time when we met each other. It was right after Covid and you know, parts of the campus were, were kind of closed because they were, they were doing the testing every day and they were checking vaccination cards every day. And so the normal areas that you would go and kind of meet afterwards weren't available to us. And I think that that actually kind of helped make us stronger because you really didn't have a choice but to engage with these, these gentlemen in the class. And like, like Chief Travis said, you know, it was within a day, the first night that we all kind of gelled together. I thought that they did a really good job of putting you in situations where you could meet new people. But I really think that you have to take that upon yourself to put yourself out there and be vulnerable with people that you don't know and seek out those like minded professionals who want to get better at the profession, who want to improve the profession, who care about the profession, who care about the fire service. I think that's what makes this group so special, is that we're all that kind of individual.

[Kevin McDonnell]

Scott?

[Deanne Bruce]

Yeah, what I was going to say is similar to Kevin's point. You know, I've gone to lots of national conferences before and oftentimes you're sitting in a room with 300 people and maybe you to talk to two or three people that are sitting right next to you. But I've been to the NFA over a dozen times in various different classes and it is remarkable how groups can come together when you're isolated to about a 20 person class and you're all working towards a common goal. And honestly, I think our instructors in this class, this specific Class had a lot to do with, with this group coming together so well.

[Jason Lundin]

Hey, this is Ben. I'd like to add something to that.

[Berlin]

Absolutely.

[Jason Lundin]

I'll tell you, we had one secret weapon that really brought us together, though. That would be Battalion Chief Troy Gibson, the Director of Merriment.

[Berlin]

The director of. What is that? What is that?

[Jason Lundin]

The Director of Merriment. And not spelled correctly on purpose.

[Berlin]

Director of Merriment. So blew me in.

[Jason Lundin]

Yeah. So at the, at the, when you go to a class at National Fire Academy, they always identify people, you know, safety officer, someone to plan the after hours things. I've been to two classes and they really pushed the networking part and the. And it was successful both times. The second time was with these guys, and it was much more successful because of Battalion Chief Troy Gibson. He really, really stepped up that first day and you could tell it was a mission for him to get us together and make sure that we were talking and getting to know each other. It was, it was kind of incredible, to be honest. I learned more from Troy that week, watching him bring us together then. I mean, I learned a lot in that class, but I learned a lot from Troy that week. And I really think it's a testament to him stepping up and not being afraid to be that guy, to say, hey, let's all come together. You know what I mean? Because, wow, at the end of the day, we're all grown up kind of, kind of old, grumpy men, sure. Some kind of way. And when somebody's going, hey, let's get together, you're kind of like, oh, who's this guy? Hey, Troy went for it and it worked. Thanks, Troy.

[Deanne Bruce]

Wow.

[Berlin]

So let me actually lean on that a little bit because I heard vulnerable a minute ago. Thank you for, for bringing that up. It was Kevin that mentioned vulnerable, because that's key. We've talked about that a lot on, on the podcast, but obviously vulnerability is huge, but something that Troy had. So I want to, I want to know more about that. So obviously for all the listeners here, you know, the next conference they go to, NFA or not, our listeners could be the next Troy. Right. We could all be the individual sitting in the back waiting for the Troy. But someone needs to take that torch and say, hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do something special here. So. So how does one do that?

[Scott Booth]

What.

[Berlin]

What were some of the traits. What did Troy do that actually ended up, you know, gelling you guys?

[Kevin McDonnell]

So this is James Troy. So we were in that command and control class and, you know, part of that is huge about ICS structure. And I had the benefit, I guess, luxury of being the incident commander for that. So part of that was we developed our command structure just like we would for a fire scene or disaster. And I expanded that to after hours. So with Troy being my director of merriment or our planning chief, we, we set out for the odd house every evening at 7:00 and we had our planning meeting that night. And the beautiful thing about it was we were applying what we were learning in class to just general life. Going out to eat with friends that evening. And for me specifically, it helped the ICS structure click at a deeper level. But Troy, Troy was the type of guy who enjoyed that. He's very outgoing and you need that in your wolf pack. I think you need a diverse group of guys. You need the guys that are kind of introverts and Troy helps bring those people out of their shells. Because if you get 20 Troys in the room, it's, it's not going to end well. It's going to be everybody competing. But, but having that well rounded group of guys, I think it brings the best out of all of us. Absolutely. And he, he really has been our unofficial leader of the pack, if you will, since, since that, that class.

[James Satterfield]

You know, the one thing about Troy is he is a one of one and might, might be imitated but never duplicated.

[Berlin]

We talk about, everybody go get your wolf pack, right? So let's go on the flip side here and talk about what happens to an individual. They don't have a wolf pack, you know, or, you know, let's defining that group around them, you know, with mentors, with peers, with friends from people there to support them. For people to tell you that you're wrong for people to, to, to, to support you when you fall for people to, you know, have that hard conversation with you. What happens to individuals that isolate themselves throughout their career and that they don't get their own wolf pack. They don't get themselves out there. They don't, you know, accept that, you know, that, that helping hand. When Troy says, hey, you want to come out to, to, you know, the after hours with us? What happens to those individuals?

[Kevin McDonnell]

Hey, this James, again, I think they, they never reach their full potential, you know, especially as you promote through the ranks. Kind of my mantra since I got promoted to captain has been relationships matter at all levels. And the only way that, that I know to build successful relationships is through spending time together, first of all, but also being the kind of person that's willing to lead that relationship and also know when to follow. Because to me, one of the traits of a great leader is knowing when to do each, knowing when to follow and knowing when you need to lead. And with somebody that. Because I've seen it over the years, I've had guys who wouldn't go out of town with the trainings unless it was in a group. They wouldn't go solo. They just miss so much, and they don't. They don't fully develop. I feel like, you know, because that goes back to Kevin's part of being vulnerable. When you travel by yourself to a conference or a class or something, you. You open yourself up to a little vulnerability, and. And that's okay. I think that that helps crack that shell a little bit and help you to. To again reach that full potential.

[Scott Booth]

Because.

[Kevin McDonnell]

Because usually growing is painful, joyful and painful. It's kind of like when you're working out, you know, it's joyful, but. But you're going to be sore the next day. And that's really the only way that we can grow. Not in our comfort zone.

[Berlin]

Never reaching your full potential. I mean, that's. That kind of. Go for it, Kevin.

[Ben Thompson]

So, yeah, I would agree with James. I think part of it also is you get to see different perspectives on how people are doing things across the country. Right. And I think that's part of that vulnerability part as well. Like, you know, I'm from the Northeast. We're not. We're not very good at accepting change. We think our way is the best way always. And I see you looking at me, Chief Travis, we're all looking at you. But, you know, I think it's important because your weight, you know, just because you've done things a certain way for 50 years, 100 years, 150 years, doesn't necessarily mean that there's not another way of doing it. It doesn't mean you're doing it wrong or right. Just there is another way of doing things. I think for a lot of us, too, you know, we're all in the same wheelhouse for time and service. We are all taught by the same generation of firefighters. And, you know, I know for us, that generation of firefighters were fantastic at teaching us what we need to know for our type of structures and the type of fires that we're going to go to. But we all know the fire service change. Things that are burning are different. Things are. The buildings are lighter weight if you have new construction. So all that stuff is important for you to get outside of your. Your Comfort zone and take things from different individuals who have experience with that. I think this is. This has done a great, great job for all of us doing that.

[Berlin]

Well, I love you. You mentioned change, so I'm going to actually stay there for just a minute because you said something that's so key, something that I think we all. I don't think enough of us embrace enough. Is. Is that change piece. Because I mean, I mean, I think it was. James said it as well. It's like you can't really improve unless you're changing. But. But yes, if we've known one way, right, for 20 years. Let's say all of us have been in fire service at least 20 years. Everyone in this room, at least your group, but you've done it for so many years. And then you get together with a group, right? Let's say at this conference, you guys. And you're challenged now for a new way of thinking. How hard is it to. Or how hard was it to say, you know what? Maybe that way is actually better than the way I've been doing it for 20, 25, 30 years. Oftentimes you find out that there are better ways to do things than the way you've been doing it.

[Deanne Bruce]

Yeah, for sure. I've got have an observation off of that. I think when I was younger, it was a lot harder to accept a different way of viewing things or maybe a different process to accomplish a goal. I think the more time you spend in the service, the more you realize that you really don't know more than you think. I do think being part of a group like this can help expedite that. Right. You don't have to wait until you got 10, 20, 30 years in to figure out, man, I don't know what I'm doing and I really need some people to shore me up. If you can get yourself a wolf pack and you can surround yourself with folks with different thoughts, different perspectives, it only accelerates your growth, right. Your wisdom, if you will, spinning off of what Kevin had said about getting together with other folks and seeing other ways. There's another benefit of getting together with folks, and that's to realize that we all have all the same problems. And it just helps provide some context and takes the sting out of things that are going on in your local organization that really frustrates you once you realize everyone's dealing with this and everyone's really frustrated about this. And so maybe it's not that big.

[Jason Lundin]

A deal to touch on that question about what happens if you don't Get a wolf pack. The only thing I'll say about that is you're missing out on the best part of this job, which is the people getting to know the people. So don't miss out. Get you a wolf pack. Second was what I found is it's not very difficult for me to accept that, hey, I was wrong. I mean, it's just, you show me something better, no problem. The difficulty comes when you try to bring that back to your department and try to convince everyone else because you're one of, you know, 700. So that's where the wolf pack really comes into play is, you know, hey, I said this. We actually just had a little text on about an incident in, in my city. And the guys were telling me, hey, give me some encouragement to, to try something. And I fell flat on my face and it didn't work. It was a very valid, good advice. I don't really want to go into it, I apologize. But it was, but it was good to have these guys here to bounce ideas off of and to, you know, vent frustration and just hear an understanding here.

[James Satterfield]

So, Berlin, this is Jason. I gotta one. I think by going out and getting all these different perspectives from outside agencies, it's going to make you see, see the world in a little bit different way. Right? And in, in learning about these other methods and how other people do things, it's going to make you more agreeable, to change your ways and because you're going to see that, you know, there 100 different ways to skin a cat. Right. And I think that I would encourage young firefighters to go out, find that wolf pack, go get that training, because just the timing and how we're growing and getting very young very quickly in the fire service. We're asking younger and newer people to step up into leadership positions at a faster pace and earlier and earlier in their career. And so I think that it's really important for the new member to go out and seek that education to complement the experience that they're getting on the.

[Berlin]

Rigs and on the streets, going outside your department. So obviously the wolfpack, you know, you guys have extensive amounts of experience in the fire service today, and even when you all first met years ago at the nfa, at what point is it, I mean, I don't even want to say appropriate, because it's always appropriate, even the day you get hired, even before you get hired. But when should an individual go outside their department to start taking classes, to start going to the nfa, to start creating that wolf pack of individuals outside of their department to learn. When would you say that's when, how and why? We'll just go there.

[Nathan Travis]

Berlin, it's Dan. I would suggest in that three to five year window for a firefighter, we know that three to five year firefighters is when they maybe start to stagnate a little bit, where they have learned a good deal of what they have in their own region or home. And then three to five years, you're starting to become a veteran, and that's a great time to then go out and get some outside perspectives through that, maybe be a little safer, be a little less stagnant, develop that growth mindset. Don't feel like you have it all figured out, because as much as I, and I learn from these guys all the time, it also, it also creates new opportunities in my mind. It makes me look at things in a different perspective. And so I'm constantly growing as opposed to stagnating and sort of just sitting with my own ideas. So I would think three to five years would be a great time.

[Scott Booth]

Well, this is Nathan for me personally, growing up through the ranks and filed at the L Fire Department, I thought that was the only way anything was ever done. You know, I never looked outside the department. I'd always reach out to my mentors and the, the ones who I thought were the hard hitters in my department trying to do the things and to teach me. And so I thought that was all we knew. And there's a little bit of chip on your shoulder when you're young and you want to go out and you, you want to represent your department and you're the best and everybody else is doing it wrong. As you mature a little bit, you, you realize you, you don't know everything and your department isn't the only way to do things. So I actually didn't start my external education or career until I was in my 40s, so 38, 39, before I even started going back to school. So I would got two associate degrees in fire service and a bachelor's degree and I'm working my master's and I, and I didn't start that until I was, like I said, my late 30s when I realized, you know, I got to do more to better myself and all the answers are not in the back door. You know, I can't just turn around to my mentors that are here and get everything that you need. Started going to the National Fire Academy, meeting these gentlemen. I realized that there was multiple factors out there in the fire service and EMS emergency management that I had no idea about. So I started doing education that would prepare me for the next level. So as a firefighter, I started reaching out, preparing me for driver, and moved up to engineer, Start preparing myself to be a captain. Moved in captain row, start preparing myself for the tie in chief. And each time, once I felt like I was ready, those doors opened for me and I moved into them. I think you can't jump too fast. I think there's a, you know, experience and education are synonymous. You have to have both to be well rounded. Education won't teach you everything, and experience will teach you everything. So I think you need a good mix of both. Just making yourself prepared and having those doors open for when they are available to yourself, when those doors open is a very essential. So reaching out these guys. I learned a little bit more about ics. I learned about task books and management teams. I didn't know there's incident management teams were even a thing. You know, I've been fire service for 30 years and 28 years in, I realized that there was such a thing as management teams and task books. So getting outside your department, you're going to learn some things and you're going to find out some things that you didn't know and some better ways of doing the same task that you're doing now.

[Berlin]

Thank you, Nathan. So a question I have now is how important is it to go out no matter what? Now, what I mean by that is, does all your departments, all of those represented here, does your department support you to take any class that you want? I know it's. That's kind of a rhetorical because I know not every department will support you to take anything. But with that being said, like have you guys put yourself out there to pay for your own class because you knew how, how important it was to, to better yourself, Right? There was this conference happening, you know, three states on the other side, you know, fire service related. Not fire service related. In the budget. Not in the budget. But you said, you know what, my wolf pack's going. I know this class was recommended. It's going to better myself. It's going to widen my perspective. So I'm going to go do it. So the question is, how important is that? And is that something that you guys have done? Is that something you guys would recommend? Because it's something that is. That would, that would force one to grow.

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah, I think this is. Kevin, again, sorry. I think it's critical to your growth. You know, our department will allow us to go to pretty much any training that you want to go to, but you are, you are on your own for time off, you are on your own for travel expenses, for food expenses. They don't pay, they won't pay for any of that. And I think a lot, a lot of times that's what gets guys to not branch out into the exterior, external education part of their job. They just don't want to use that time or money to go do that. You know, that was never really an issue for me. The first time I attended the National Fire Academy, I was hooked. And I just, I love going back there to, you know, get that environment and get that, that cohesiveness with other firefighters from across the country. So I think it's critical for you to go out and do it regardless of whether your department supports it or not, financially or time wise.

[James Satterfield]

But, and that's one nice thing about the National Fire Academy, right, is that although you have to put out the initial money for airfare, you get reimbursed through fema, a FEMA stipend and the classes are free. So really all you have to pay for in the end is your meal ticket and food, which, which one would.

[Berlin]

Be spending on their own, in their own money at home anyway, right? So you know, the dates, it's, you're not out of pocket anything, right?

[Nathan Travis]

Berlin is the end. I, I, I, I want to point out too that Kevin is an instructor at the National Fire Academy and that's happened since the Wolf Pack. I don't know how much we all had to do with that, but I would say that that is, I'm here at this conference on my own dime. My department had to restrict the budget for this year because of some unintended costs. And I mean, it's worth it, it's worth it. You will, the money will is well spent because it's invested in yourself. And so don't see it as you're paying for the classes, see it as an investment in yourself and your future in the fire service.

[Berlin]

I'll round that out with saying is none of you or all of you will say have gone out of your way at some point or another throughout your career, paid your way to take a class, to travel somewhere, whatever it may be, to develop yourself, and you wouldn't take it back. Does that sound pretty accurate?

[Scott Booth]

Yes, I'd say absolutely. And just to add to that, it does take time, you know, so education takes time. So these, these courses and these travels, National Fire Academy, some of them are weak, some of them are two weeks long. Most of these conferences are Three, four, five days. So you have to have a good support system at home as well. I don't want to, you know, take away from that or our spouses and our family, you know, they, they do sacrifice, too, while we're trying to get this education to better ourselves. So having that good support system at home and, and your spouses and your family, knowing that you're making yourself better and you're. You're keeping yourself safer by this education goes a long way, too. So it helps having that support behind you.

[Berlin]

James?

[Kevin McDonnell]

Yeah, I was just going to say that for me, as a young firefighter, I had this vision in my mind of the more training, the more experience, the more education I could get before marriage and then before kids. That was super important for me, just because I know that that changes things once you have that dynamic at home, because it's always hard to leave your family. You know, it's hard going away because I don't know, Berlin, if you're like me. But if something is going to happen wrong at home, it's usually when I'm out of town or when I'm at work, always. So my wife likes to. Yeah, my wife likes to restrict. Restrict me going sometimes just because she knows something's going to happen. But, but for those young listeners, soak up as much as you can early on in your careers. Again, if you have that opportunity, even if it's local, get as much knowledge, as much training as you can before kids, before marriage, if you get in the fire service before then. Because I think it will pay dividends later on.

[Berlin]

Absolutely.

[Nathan Travis]

Professional growth is personal growth as well. So don't look at it as just an investment in, in your career. It's also growth in your life.

[Berlin]

I love that. Yeah. Thank you. I mean, obviously, if you go out there and spend money for a class and it's for the fire service. Yeah. I mean, you are developing yourself in many different ways. And that's something that I think we need to all keep in mind as we see Battalion Chief Troy getting to the picture here. So I want to pick on Troy here because he has yet to say anything. So perhaps my, my favorite part of this discussion today is going to be talking about developing and mentoring other people. So we just talked about going out, going to classes, going to seminars, reaching outside your fire department, gathering a wolf pack. Now I want to talk about developing and mentoring not just other people in our departments, not just other people in the fire service, but just this new generation that's coming in. I heard Jason mention a Second ago that we have just a wave of new firefighters coming in, maybe asking individuals to step up earlier than they would have either expected. There's lots of openings, there's high turnover, lots of retirements happening right now. So I'm going to kick this off with Troy. Italian chief Troy Gibson here developing and mentoring new generations. Talk about how that's done at your fire department, but also what is. What does Troy do or, you know, what does the wolf pack do? I know that this is a conversation you guys have had together. I know you guys have all experience trying to mentor new generations. You know, I know you guys are probably picking each other's brains and trying to, you know, how you navigating through the generation of today. So I know that's kind of. That's kind of a lot there. But Battalion Chief Troy, I'm sure you're used to just taking off with it after being asked a question, so go for it.

[Troy Gibson]

Yeah. Thanks, Berlin. And the rest of you guys, I'll go ahead and put that check in the mail. I appreciate those kind words. You know, for me, you know, I just. And I'm enjoying just my last days of captainism, but that company officer, I really tried to embrace that. And I was lucky enough to get a lot of new guys. I have a house that new guys come into. And first you have to be open, vulnerable, accepting, to change. But how I disarm them, because I do believe in that and disarm myself, is with that openness and then learning from them. Mentor, mentee. And the first two days, the pre conference class we attended was how to develop a mentorship program for your department. And I had a junior firefighter here, so that's just my style. That's how it works in my department. It's informal right now. We're trying to make it formal. That's why we're here. But what I, What I've found successful is, you know, asking the questions, learning from them, being open. And I, I really believe in the family approach. And, and that's what a wolf pack is. It's really a family, because wolves, you know, they. They obviously hunt together, eat together, sleep together. It's a family environment. And you have to kind of keep that mentality when they're. Because this isn't a job, it's a career. It's a calling. And, you know, being able to kind of show them what you know, but be open to what they're going to teach you because it's a evolving job. You know, science is not a dirty Word. You know, we need to kind of look at that data. The reason we have all this data is because we. We know things are changing, and I think all of us talked about that. But how I do it is I get out there and I learn from them because I think if you learning and teaching, it's very organic, and that's how it's done at my house. That's what I found to be successful. I think that goes throughout your career. Whatever rank you are, you can learn from everybody below you at the same level and above you, including the fire chief. But the pack will enhance those abilities. And I have, you know, Nathan and Ben, who I've spent a lot of time with, but this whole pack helped me prepare for the position when I was bidding for the job and still. Still are keeping me up to date. And yeah, the usual is I'm kind of the life of the party. But that's part of their preparation is, you know, the new position is different. You're not necessarily in that kind of company officer role where everything you do has somebody with you. You become a little bit of a lone wolf, and your job does change, and there's less talking and. And more listening because it's more of a support role. And I believe in that. At the battalion chief level, my job is to support obviously, tactically, there are places where you'll need to be in command, but that's why you have good captains. And I truly believe in that. But on the mentoring with the new generations, I have children in those generations. I also have young children. It's been a little easier, but talking to all the other guys in the back and saying, how do you guys do it? And then you find your own style. But I found just letting them show you what they know because it is the newest stuff that's been ground truth because they're coming out of our training division, which I think does a fantastic job well.

[Berlin]

So it sounds like for you specifically, obviously listening, being open to learning, you know, having it being a learning teaching environment. Because let's just. You go ahead and say it, that not everyone has the same open mind, as a Troy Gibson will say. So it is hard for some individuals to put themselves out there, you know, when you're. When there's a new wave of generation of firefighters coming in, and it's like, you know, this is the way my way. I've been here a long time. But it sounds like what's important is being open to obviously learning their ways. Right. And obviously you have kids and. And you have kids in these generations, so you probably understand it a little bit more. But for those that. That will say, don't have as much interaction, or is this new generation and, you know, leaning on, again, the importance of having a wolf pack, you know, bouncing ideas off of them, hey, you got kids of this generation. How do they learn? How do they teach? How do they like to interact? You know, so again, it just kind of goes without saying is leaning on each other just helps us become better. Anybody else developing and mentoring new generations. How are you guys doing at your departments?

[Scott Booth]

Scott, jump on that real quick.

[Deanne Bruce]

I think it's. It's been a little bit of a mixed bag across my organization. I will say that our culture has been longstanding about giving firefighters that express interest in company officer level or company officers interested in the battalion level. Just giving them an opportunity to spend time in the seat, you know, with a net, so to speak, as opposed to taking the test, scoring well, getting appointed, and then suddenly you're out there without a net, relying on junior members to try to help you figure it out. And so there's. There's a couple bcs that that's just been. That's just been their way for as long as I've known them. And it's. And it's fantastic. It really just encourages a safe way to experience that next level up without the overwhelming pressure of being the decision maker from one day to the next. And so that's been something that's worked really well in our organization. I would say that it's not a formal thing. Like, you know, once you're a company officer for five years, you have to start doing it. It's certainly more informal and more organic. But I do know that those officers, myself included, when I was still working on the rigs, is to identify those people that you see kind of that spark in that you think have the aptitude or, I don't know, just. Just they. They seem like they. They'd be a good kind of stepping into that role and supporting others as opposed to being supported and doing the work and then just identifying them, encouraging them, and then giving them those opportunities to. To try and offer size and see what they think.

[Scott Booth]

This is Nathan, again, I'll just add one more thing there. I was attended the chief's Edge course Tuesday down here at F. And it's a day full of 40 chiefs that sit in the room, and that's what they call the safe space. And we bounce off the issues that each department's facing off of each other and how they're handling it. And one of the biggest topics was the mentorship and the succession planning and how to reach the younger generation, the Gen Z. During this whole entire conference, they did let a couple of young firefighters in and one of them was a 19 year old female from a EMS fire department. She was on the EMS side. So right at the very end, when we were completely done talking, she did step up and come to the center of the room and she said, I want to thank you for being in this room and listening to you gentlemen. She says, the first time I've ever heard why y'all wanted us to do the things that we're doing. The first time I understood why I have to clean a commode, the first time I ever understood why y'all pick on us, she said, nobody ever explained that to us. And she said, that's what we need. We need y'all to set us down and just talk to us and let us know what's going on because we want to do a good job. We just don't know what we're doing yet.

[Kevin McDonnell]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

So I thought that was very impactful and very brave of her to step up and say that to a group of 40 fire chiefs from around the country that have all have 30 years of experience each. So just take that as a lesson, you know, sit your younger generation down and have that conversation with them.

[Berlin]

Wow. Thank you for sharing. So explaining the why, you know, and obviously in a respectful manner, but in a way where they would understand. Right. I mean, let's just be honest. I'm not, you know, I'm 39 and, you know, a 22 year old is a completely different generation than even me. So it seems like I'd be kind of close to that generation. But it's something that I, you know, need to delicately learn as well as people learn differently, people accept, you know, they, they perceive information very differently. But I think you make a great point there, is that people just want to know the why for the most part. Right. Everyone's here to do a good job, otherwise they wouldn't be here.

[James Satterfield]

So, Jason here, I got one more thing to say to actually, hopefully junior people who are listening to the podcast. We want to reach out and mentor you, but never be afraid to ask that senior firefighter, that engineer, that officer for help. Hey, I don't understand this. Can you tell me more about that? Because I think all of us want to share and pass along the knowledge that we've were given by those who mentored us. And we want to we want to make you the best firefighter that you can be. Right. And I know in my personal experience I had, when I went to the senior firefighter or the engineer or the officer and asked them for help, I have never been turned down by anybody in the fire service.

[Jason Lundin]

This is, this man I want to add. So the one thing I'd say about the mentoring, there's, you know, I work in a really busy battalion with some busy, busy houses, and to be honest, I think guys need to understand that mentoring is not sitting down going, I am going to mentor you. You know, the mentoring never stops. You know it, you're mentoring when you're swapping apparatus at 3 o'clock in the morning because your fire engine broke down. You are mentoring when you are busy, when you're angry, however you handle that, that younger person is looking and seeing how you're doing it. And whether you know it or not, they're gonna, they're gonna take a piece of that. So I just, I think the mentoring never stops. Whether you're a mentor or not. If you're a senior firefighter or an officer, they're watching you.

[Berlin]

Yeah. Thank you for that. Mentoring is not, not always what you're doing. It's also what you're not doing because they're watching that too. James.

[Kevin McDonnell]

Yeah, I was gonna say too. For me, mentoring is a lot like family. It never, like you said, it's never stops, but it also doesn't stop when you punch that clock at the end of the day. You know, if your guys need something on your day off, you should be there for them. You should want to be there for them. And it can be something as simple as is, hey, I run out of gas, I need a ride. It could be something as complex as asking one of your guys a question about, hey, you know, my roof's leaking, I don't have a construction background, can you come over and help me? Anything like that all the way to. I've got several guys in my, my crew that have recently become dads for the first time and walking them through the simple stuff of fatherhood, of expect this, you know, this is normal. Just being a very well rounded mentor and not just so super focused on the job because I think like DM was saying, a lot of what we do overlaps. It's not just a professional investment, it's a personal investment as well. And, and if we're good dads, more than likely we're going to be good company officers. Because being a company officer, there's a lot like being a dad at certain points in your career.

[Ben Thompson]

Brilliant. It's Kevin, too. I think it's so important, too, as that mentor, that, that company officer, even that newly minted chief officer that you listen when, when you. Your people are talking to you and you, you actively listen. You don't think about what you're going to say next, right? You soak in what. Because they know if you're not listening, they pick up on it, you know, absolutely. They're going to shut down. So I think it's so important that you listen to them. I think another part of that is, you know, whenever I get a new firefighter in the house, I always, you know, have that initial meeting with them. And this is what the expectations are. This is how, you know, this is how the house operates. This is how the company operates. This is how I expect you to operate. But also, what now? What do you expect from me as your officer? And take that time to let them really explain to you what, what they expect. They may not know what to expect from you. And I think it's also important to be very honest with them, almost to the point of being brutally honest, because it's. It is a different profession, it is a different calling. You know, there. There are going to see some things and do some things that most people in the population will never do or never see. And I think that listening part and paying attention to them goes a long way as well. And just showing them that you do care about them. If they are important to you, that you're in the house and you're part of their company, they're part of your company.

[Kevin McDonnell]

Berlin, it's James again. I think two. Part of us developing ourselves. A good company officer as a good, as a good chief officer involves us changing our tactics depending on who the individual is. We're talking to mentoring, teaching, because we all learn at different paces. We all learn in different ways. So I've seen company officers who were unwilling to change how they taught people how they mentored. And it just didn't work for their. For their guys under them. And it, to me, it almost goes back to when we were talking about finding out the why earlier.

[Deanne Bruce]

You're right.

[Kevin McDonnell]

I was part of the first generation in my department that came in wanting to know the why, and it offended a lot of people. And now that I've kind of become one of the old guys, I believe that it offended them because they didn't know the why. They just have done it. This is how we've always done it.

[Scott Booth]

This is And.

[Kevin McDonnell]

And you asking me the why. Me not knowing is going to make me feel inferior, and it's going to embarrass me. So I'm just going to. To go off in this defensive manner.

[Berlin]

But.

[Kevin McDonnell]

But as company officers and the people listening who want to be company officers, that's why. Understanding the why and what we do, the way we act, all of that, it's so important to know and to share with those coming in those doors after us.

[Berlin]

So a question I have now is to talk about developing and mentoring new generations or mentoring just, you know, other firefighters or other people in our firehouse. How are you all developing yourselves to become a better mentor? And I asked that question simply because as I look at task books, as I look at preparation for the next step, step to become a leader, formal leader, a company officer or other. As we look at development in our organizations, rarely do we see a class or a course, an academy that involves how to be an instructor, how to be a teacher, how to be a good mentor. It's always, you know, I got to go to icss, got to go, you know, to this class. Got to do blue card Incident management. You got to go to hazmat Incident Command. You got to do tactics classes, EMS class, whatever you have, you. But rarely are we seeing the development of the soft skills of the job. Developing yourself and becoming a good mentor. So I guess unofficially, I mean, officially in the sense that I know you're all doing it, but I guess I'm asking the question is, how are you and what are you doing to develop yourself, either currently or in the past to make sure you were a good mentor to those of the future?

[Nathan Travis]

Berlin, this is Dan. I think I really started to learn mentorship when I. When I got into peer support, because the critical caring for somebody and having those hard conversations, it's not much different from when you're dealing with somebody who's having a problem to talking to somebody about efficiencies they can make in their game and to bring it back to the wolf pack. I've used this group to help sharpen me to be a better mentor. From Troy, I learned how to be fearless and gregarious. From Jason, I learned how to. To listen and be more organized. From. From Chief Travis, I've learned how to be more direct and have candor. And from Kevin as well, I've heard Kevin say some things. I was like, wow, that is. That is radical candor. You know, for Scott, I've learned. I've learned how to be more curious and engage on a larger level and look at systems as opposed to just people. And so, I mean, Ben, I learned how to be more technically minded. I've learned something from James, how to be, how to be more caring and actually really stop and think about not problems, but people as a whole. I mean, I've learned something from every member of this pack. And then I've turned around and, and been a better version of myself than I would have been.

[Berlin]

Absolutely. So it sounds like having that wolf pack in it of itself has helped you become a good mentor. And the lack of having the wolf pack, you wouldn't have been able to develop yourself to the mentor you are today.

[Nathan Travis]

That's a great question. That's absolutely right. These, these gentlemen, I'm still me. I haven't really, you know, changed, but, but each one of them has sharpened, Yes. A segment of my personality and reinforce something that's, that's made me a. Greater than the. The sum of my parts.

[Berlin]

Absolutely. How about a few more on that? Because I really, I kind of do want to know and I'm sure the listeners for them is how are some of you others developing yourselves and making sure that you are a mentor? Because mentorship is necessary. Right. I mean, it's, it's, it's a requirement, if you will. Right. Because the individuals coming up behind us.

[Jason Lundin]

This has been here the way I've been doing it. One is every morning I wake up and I look at my text messages and I have about 38 missed text messages from these guys.

[Berlin]

And that's it.

[Jason Lundin]

Good to see, get to see what's going on around the world and gets me, you know, in tune and other things. I've been listening to your podcast. I listened to one recently and I think it was Frank Leeb. And he said, said no one cares what you know unless they know you care. And that has resonated with me for the last, I don't know, two weeks. And I've been implementing it everywhere I go. So, you know, just talking to the friends and, you know, listening to what's out there and, you know, thank you for having this podcast because it's helped me become a better mentor and a better leader.

[Ben Thompson]

So, Kevin, I think for me, my personally, mine is to, to ensure that I, I do my best to not lose focus of the mission at the end of the day, which is people. You can't do this, be in this profession without caring about people. I get it. Everyone has that 12, 13, 15th EMS run of the day. You know, it's. You would beat up all day, all night, you're tired, you're cranky, you're. You know, you just want to go home to your family. But I really. It's. I think it's important, especially as you, as the mentor, the officer, you know, the person that's the leader is to. To really portray that positive attitude and to always have that in your sights, that the people are the mission. And if you lead by example, I think, you know, a lot of people are going to follow your example.

[Berlin]

Absolutely. Chief Travis.

[Scott Booth]

Yeah. Lou Holtz, I think said it best for me. You know, do the right thing at all times. You know, try to do your best, but always show people you care. And that's one things I always live by. And as I said, those of us who have kids, you know, we all. We all know what it's like. Take care of people and take care of your children. Make sure they. They're provided the best thing. And as you grow up through this fire service, you realize, like some of these guys said earlier, that becomes your family, and you end up. Once you get in the leadership role and the supervisory role, it's just like having a bunch of kids, you know, so you're. You bring them under your wings, you want them to succeed, you want to do well, but you. You know, you also want to protect them. So you. You see those guys that are struggling at home, you see those guys that are struggling with things personally, and you. You got to be purposeful in engaging those. When you see those problems. And sometimes it's not an easy conversation. Sometimes it's. If you. If you don't have that skill set, you actually have to learn it. You have to teach yourself. So there's courses out there for that. But just being real and being honest is the best way to do it. Just walk up and say, how can I help you today? What is it that I can do, you know, to support you and get you through this? So I think just. Just being open, just being honest, and just being real with people goes a long way. They can see that. They can. They can see it when you're fake, and they can see it when you're real. So do the right thing and just show people you care.

[Berlin]

Absolutely. Thank you, Chief Booth.

[Deanne Bruce]

Yeah, that. That's very well said by everybody. I love that. That line of questioning and then. And then the answers that we came up with. The one thing that I haven't heard yet is I think you really need to invest in yourself. And when you were asking the question, I would. What was what I was hearing was how do you develop emotional intelligence? Right. And so I think, I think we need to invest in learning more about ourself as individuals. I can't speak for anyone else on this call, but I know I come from a childhood full of trauma. And until I understood that and knew how to frame it, it really affected who I was as a human being in a negative way. And as I've gotten older and understood myself better, I'm in a program now where you really invest in understanding yourself. You might have heard it, an EFO program, version two. And it's all about understanding yourself better and developing significant emotional intelligence. And so I honestly think that the more time you invest in yourself, the better able you will be to invest in others. And so it can happen a lot of different ways, right? Maybe it's a fellowship through church, maybe it's, I don't know, maybe you play pickleball on the side and there's a group of people there, or maybe it's a wolf pack and you just come together and you love on each other and you're through the good and the bad together, but you begin to kind of put some, some sideboards up on who you are and, and what really, what really makes you tick and what you believe in and what matters.

[Berlin]

Talked about on this on the show is like we've talked hard skills of the job and I think more and more, I'll say 15 of the last 20 episodes, our guests have talked about emotional intelligence, right? We've talked about self awareness. You've talked about un, you know, understanding ourselves before trying to understand other people. So thank you for saying that because that's something that we all have to just want to do. Right? Because you know, our development programs out there aren't putting us through emotional intelligence classes. They're not putting us through self awareness. It's something that we have to invest in ourselves. Understand that it is important for them to, you know, be able to grow in that arena. So, all right, so this is the non negotiable piece. So obviously as leaders in the fire service, as leaders professionally and personally in your own lives as well, we all have a non negotiable, right? Non negotiables in terms of what we won't give up for whatever the, the cause or the purpose is. And there's also things that we must do to ensure that we're going to give it all we can to whoever it is that's depending on us. So I'm going to go out there and fill the Non negotiable with, with what I hear is the lack of having a wolf pack in your career and in your life is going to. It can, it could really deter or stop you from developing to your full potential. I've heard a lot today is, is your inability to develop yourself to your full potential in many of these avenues. So my question I'm going to ask every single one of you is in a sentence or two, what happens if you don't develop a wolf pack at some point in your career and better yet, without having a wolf pack early on in your career. And I'm going to start with James.

[Kevin McDonnell]

Well, two things. One, I think you have blind spots that you're not aware of if you don't have a close circle that can help you identify those in a safe space. And the other is going back to. You're not going to reach your full potential. You're not going to help. You're not going to help your friends or that wolf pack create that full potential. Because a lot of times we focus on how the wolf pack helps us. What we don't see is how we're actually helping the others in the wolf pack and how that's going to benefit them and then they're going to benefit their department.

[Troy Gibson]

Troy, you will stunt yourself in the sense that one of the most rewarding things in my career has been to be a mentor and watch those mentees and just help kind of water those plants and watch them grow. And without a wolf pack, it is going to be very difficult for you to become that mentor and be able to kind of see what I think is the greatest reward in my career has been seeing people that I've helped succeed. That's all I got for that one.

[Berlin]

Is Captain D.N. bruce in the room?

[Nathan Travis]

Yes, sir. I'd say if you want to go fast and be wrong, don't get a pack. If you want to go far and fast and robust, get yourself a pack.

[Berlin]

Chief Nathan Travis.

[Scott Booth]

I'd say in one word, the unknown. I did not know what I didn't know until I had this back. I didn't know the areas I was lacking in. I didn't know where I could do better, what I needed to focus on. The education, the friendship, the resources that I have now are far more than I would have had without them. And like I said, just the unknown. What you don't know without this back.

[Berlin]

Absolutely. Jason Lundin.

[James Satterfield]

The thing that I would say is you'd be robbing yourself at the opportunity to expand your brotherhood and the Camaraderie. I've been able to achieve a lot more professionally because of these men. But I am a better man. I'm a better father, better husband because of all these guys, their support. And you know, I, I truly love every one of these guys. So how can you not say that I would be robbed of a big part of my life without this wolf pack?

[Berlin]

Chief Scott Booth.

[Deanne Bruce]

I'll just simply say that ignorance is bliss. So maybe you wouldn't even know how much you're missing. But the reality is that to, to Nathan's point, you don't know what you don't know and you won't know until you know. So find some people. So you know.

[Berlin]

Well said, Chief Thompson.

[Jason Lundin]

One thing you'd miss out on without a wolf pack is a whole lot of dad jokes. Second thing is a whole lot of fun. And the third thing is without this wolf pack, I may have never, never heard of this program called the Executive Fire Officer Program. I mean, I've got to look into this when we get off this podcast. I'm going to look it up today. So thank you, thank you for that there, Assistant Chief Scott Booth.

[Berlin]

There you go. Kevin McDonnell.

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah, for me, I think the most important part of the Wolfpack is it gives you that opportunity to, to reach your highest success level. It gives you that motivating factor. It gives you that opportunity to have options on things that you make that may come across your desk. I think the, the danger of not having one is you put yourself in a chance to not leave the profession better than you found it. And that's important to me.

[Berlin]

Awesome. And there it is. Lack of having a wolf pack is a non negotiable coming from eight different individuals in this room. So now as we talked about the efo, we talked about emotional intelligence. We talked about, you know, self development, self awareness. In this EFO class, as we sit here and brainstorm here on this podcast, we have listeners tune in. As we know, the wolf pack helps, you know, having a wolf pack in this wolf pack by bouncing ideas off each other. 38 text messages in the morning. Who knows by the end of the evening if you didn't check your phone all day. It's about making things happen. It's about brainstorming, it's about starting a conversation. It's about, you know, maybe something, you know, becomes of something in one's department in a region at the National Fire Academy. But here's my question. Emotional intelligence, self awareness, soft skills of leadership involved in EFO class. Why are they not involved in a lieutenant's task book. Why is it not involved in, you know, JATC apprenticeship? Why is it not involved in battalion chief training? And maybe it is, but I don't see it very often. So the question is, it's rhetorical, but I, I guess how can we start that conversation and getting this earlier for individuals to develop themselves early in their career and not wait until they're in an EFO class 26, 28, 35 years into their career.

[Deanne Bruce]

I honestly think the reason that we don't talk about it, we don't do it, is because it's super uncomfortable. It's disarming. It's a level of vulnerability that most people aren't willing to go to, even with their, their closest family members or their spouse or whoever. But you, you were darn right about the necessity to, to get people to just strip their shell off and, and be real with each other. I think, I think a super critical nature of leadership is, is express vulnerability, is a willingness to tell a subordinate, hey man, I don't know, I don't know, but let's go figure it out together. I think that there are far too many leaders that completely leave so much on the table because they're not willing to bring themselves down a notch and look at themselves at the same level that those are trying to lead. And so why don't we do it? I don't know. Maybe it's not quantifiable, maybe it's not something that you can put into a taskbook or checkbox. But my guess is that there's an awful lot of, well, we're in a male oriented or male dominated profession. There's probably an awful lot of men that find that extremely uncomfortable. And so we got to get comfortable with being uncomfortable.

[Berlin]

There you go. Will we see it in the future in the fire service? Hopefully.

[Deanne Bruce]

I sure hope so. I'm going to do everything I can to spread my message because I think it really matters and I think it's something that is not well under. Yeah, I won't say well understood. It's not well researched in the fire service and, and it's not something that a lot of folks are talking about and preaching about. You got to get outside of the fire service to hear people really, really talking about it and, and beating the drum on it.

[Berlin]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

And I agree with Scott. It's a, it's coming to the fire service. There's no doubt in my, my 30 years of, of serving in this profession, I've, I've seen it progress that Direction. There's more awareness of it now than there used to be, obviously. But just like anything else, we have so much training we have to do now to be an all hazards agency and to just stay on top of millions of different competencies that we have to stay on top of now and then ongoing and reoccurring training, finding the time and the resources to insert this kind of stuff that's already, as Scott say, uncomfortable. It's a challenge for departments. However, like all good things, you know, it will come here and all departments will have to pick it up eventually. The talk is out there, the knowledge is out there. Just like cancer. Awareness was a thing of the past and now it's full blown. This is just that next step into making our fire service better. And it takes individuals like us to, to keep that talk going and to invest in our members and to, to make those things happen. So. But it's coming.

[Berlin]

Absolutely. I'm glad to hear it.

[Jason Lundin]

I'll tell you the, the one thing I'll say about express vulnerability to touch on the importance of it. We talked about it earlier about the, the young firefighters we have, how we're getting younger and younger people are having to step up a lot faster than they would have in the past. And I could speak for myself, I was ended up in a position as a battalion chief probably a lot sooner than I expected. If we do not have our officers trained to show what they don't know, to have that vulnerability, it's going to be dangerous because we're going so fast now. People are getting promoted so young that they have to have that ability to do it. They can't act like they know it all because you don't.

[Berlin]

I love it. If you were talking to a group of newer firefighters and you were suggesting to this individual to start doing this to become better leaders, to start off their career on the right foot to find a wolf pack, what would you say to this individual or these individuals? Start with dn I think getting outside.

[Nathan Travis]

Of your, your fire department, I think there's a lot of safety you don't have any history with, with those people. And then. But it's a, it's a safe zone to make mistakes or really to say that you don't know. And so rather than, I think sometimes when we, when we're in our own departments and we, you know, we're scared to take those risks. I think having an outside group is, is very helpful to be, to be a very safe zone to do that, to explore that.

[Jason Lundin]

This has been the one Thing I would say to a group of young firefighters to touch on kind of what Dean said about, you know, get out and learn. I wouldn't say just go out. I would definitely say go out and learn. But if you can take people with your department out with you, you know, don't just go out by yourself. If you can take a group of your department to go out, you will have so much better chance of implementing good, positive change when you return. And the second thing I would say is, if you feel comfortable going out of your department, have an honest look as why do you have a. Why do you feel so good leaving your department to go learn? Because I'll be honest, you know, I work for a department that's extremely diverse in a community that is, you know, predominantly African American. I'm a Caucasian male. You know, I work with a lot of African American firefighters, and we have a lot of differences in our department. And, you know, luckily I like it. You know, that's. That's why I came to the department I came to. But I think some folks come to just be a firefighter and don't really know, you know, what they're stepping into. So sometimes stepping outside your department isn't really anything more than a retreat, I guess. So I say just be honest with yourself. If you're going out, are you really going to learn? Are you going. Because you're just, you know, feel safer out there, more comfortable.

[Berlin]

So.

[Jason Lundin]

And just be honest and it's okay. You can learn from that. Even if it is more comfortable out there, it's, you know, identify and grow.

[Berlin]

Interesting. I love that.

[Troy Gibson]

This is Troy. So the new firefighter just needs to understand a few fundamental things. This is your family. If you don't know how to treat your family, that's something we can teach you, but most people do, so we'll take that assumption. And if you treat everybody, you know, like your family and your life may depend on that other person, I think that brings a level of heaviness because sometimes when you're new, you haven't had those fires, you haven't been in those positions to create those bonds. We all know kind of after a good fire, there is a bond and adrenaline rush and that carries with you, so kind of letting them know, this is your family. We are here to go home and have fruitful careers, and we will rely on each other. So I. I think that's important for a new firefighter to learn. And it's something that those senior firefighters can articulate. Anybody can tell them, right, because they're brand new, they're a sponge. And then the second thing is to be a student of the profession. I'm a big reader, so, you know, I like to recommend books. Some fire service, some not. But when they get in those books, I think that stimulates that their own thought process. And if they take that throughout their career, many chiefs much smarter than me have said, you know, spending that time reading, by the end of your career, you're going to be pretty good because you'll never learn everything, but you will grow. So those are kind of, I think, really important for new firefighters.

[Berlin]

Absolutely.

[James Satterfield]

Jason, I would want, and I tell my, my new people that I get the opportunity to work with that. I don't expect perfection from you, but I want you to strive for it. And then the second thing is that I can teach them a lot of skills, but I can't teach you the right attitude and the want to and that, that really needs to come from you.

[Berlin]

With that being said, let's transition right into company officers.

[Scott Booth]

Right.

[Berlin]

We just talked to newer individuals in the organization. How do you suggest or what advice would you give to a company officer and growing as leaders themselves and. Or fighting a wolf pack.

[Deanne Bruce]

I'll jump in. I know what I, what I would tell new company officers was to take the work seriously, but don't take yourself too seriously. And that speaks to being, you know, humble, showing humility, really digging in and really digging in and doing a good job, striving to do a good job. But, but just don't take yourself so stinking seriously. The other thing I would, I would remind new company officers, I really remind this to anyone that seems like they're just kind of losing focus, they're losing their passion is just, honestly, sometimes I think when we say remember where you came from, it's like derogatory, like, hey, remember where you came from. But when I, when I'm saying it, I mean, hey, remember how clueless you used to be and don't be so hard on everyone else that's as clueless as you were, if not better than you were when you were that clueless. Right? So just, just take care of each other, pour into each other and, and just try to do, really do, really do good work.

[Berlin]

Chief Jabs.

[Scott Booth]

Yeah. What I'd say for my new company officers is you have to fill your own cup before it's going to overflow to your crews. So develop yourself, Go out there and learn. Find your wolf pack. Find those that you can engage with, that you can bounce ideas off of and because you're not always going to get it right. You're going to need somebody to bounce something off of. But if you're. If you're empty, if you're not filling yourself up, if you're not making yourself better, you're not going to pour that back into your crews either, and they're going to see it. So lead by the example. Make sure you're good, and then that'll flow out to your crews.

[Jason Lundin]

Actually, there is one thing I'd like to add to that. So if it's a new company officer, I would tell them, you have a wolf pack. It's your crew. Don't forget that. And don't leave anybody behind that.

[Berlin]

Go for it. James.

[Kevin McDonnell]

Two things that I would add to that. Telling the new company officer. One, once you become a company officer for crew, it's no longer about you, it's about them. And that's important. And you need to be focused on not only developing yourself like Chief Travis said, but. But now you're responsible for developing your crew and how important that is. Just take care of them. And it's okay to be wrong, but make sure you own your mistakes and don't put it on other people. Because I think that's part of them being vulnerable. And when you do that, even though you're wrong, it builds a lot of trust with. With your crew. When you. When you're able to say, yeah, I made that mistake, that one's on me.

[Berlin]

Let's go to. Let's go to chief officer. So let's say you have a battalion chief or deputy chief, assistant chief, division chief, the fire chief themselves. We'll say, don't have a wolf pack. Right. They've gone their entire career. They don't have a wolf pack. Two questions. Is it too late? And if it's not, because it's not too late. I know that's rhetorical. How would you suggest that? They say, you know what? I haven't had a wolf pack for the entirety of my career, but I'm gonna go get a wolf pack right now. I see the necessity of it. I want to learn. I'm still learning. How would you suggest the chief officer go out and find a wolf pack?

[Scott Booth]

This Nathan. I'll start with that one. No, it's not too late. Like I said, I didn't have the wolf pack until I met these guys. I was just about to be promoted battalion chief when I met them. May have just gotten promoted. I can't remember. It was right around that same time. So that's when I found this pack myself. And I would say, don't just make your wolf pack a bunch of chiefs. You make your wolf pack out of every rank because you're going to need that reminder of what the firefighters are going through. You're going to need that reminder what your company officers are going through. So you're going to need a diverse group for your wolf pack. So if you make it all chiefs, it's not going to be anything but a. But a gripe session. You're all going to say, we got problems, you got problems. And that's all we're going to do is talk about our problems. You need somebody to say, well, yeah, but we have problems down here too, and you can help us. So you need that pack to be diverse of all the ranks. It's not too late. There's plenty of organizations out there that you can join. If you're not part of anything, the IFC or ifc, excuse me, International has groups. Go to these conferences and just start engaging with people and build your network.

[Berlin]

Well said.

[Deanne Bruce]

Yeah, Nathan, I don't know if I could have said that better. I'll just reiterate that it's an absolute necessity, at least at the executive chief level. It's a lonely place to be, right. I've come to realize that if you're doing your job well, no one has any idea. It's only when you mess something up that people notice and, boy, they're going to tell you about it. Right? So. So you're going to, you're going to suffer in silence. You're going to have victory in silence. You, you have to surround yourself with people that can keep the passion that had existed when you were out there. You know, work in the car, medic unit or riding an engine or whatever. Right? Because. Because I think I've. I've been in this position almost two years and I've turned my lights on twice. Like, I mean it, you just don't do that anymore. It's just not part of your regular routine. And so you, It. It's hard to stay focused on the, on the bigger picture, that passion that initially got you into the fire service. And so, man, you've got to surround your. Yourself with people. You have to create a wolf pack if you're gonna, if you're gonna move through what is in all likelihood the twilight of your career as you, as you head off into retirement. So it's. I would, I would argue it's almost more important the higher you get up and the more Isolated you can become.

[Berlin]

Give me a recommended book article class seminar that you would suggest to the listeners something that would help them grow as leaders, starting with Kevin.

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah, so I just recently finished reading Leadership Lessons from D Day from John Antle. Really, really good perspective on Pretty significant event and how they were planning both on success and failure and. And especially the first chapter when they talked to Eisenhower and they talked about how he had a plan in motion, and he had a plan if it failed and if it succeeded. So I. That was a good book for me.

[Berlin]

Awesome. Ben.

[Jason Lundin]

So the book that I recommend is and Things Teaching efo. So I'm not stealing Scott's thunder here, but Leadership on the Line. The last time I was on your podcast, I think I quoted like seven times. You're like, what's your favorite book? And I didn't say it. And I walked away. I was like, what an idiot.

[Berlin]

Leadership on the Line.

[Jason Lundin]

Yeah, Leadership on the Line. Great, great book.

[Berlin]

Chief Booth.

[Deanne Bruce]

I'm gonna say Wooden on leadership. Oh, yes, John Wooden. What I like about this specific book is this is. This was written with a ghostwriter to help kind of refine his thoughts. And his approach to leadership is surprisingly simple, yet profoundly effective and very actionable for the company officer. This was a book that was given to me when I first promoted a lieutenant, and I read it ravenously, and it really has served me well over the years.

[Berlin]

Chief Travis.

[Scott Booth]

That's the one book I'd recommend because I do practice this as well. It's called Leaders Eat Last. I actually practice that at the firehouse. So when it's child time, I'm the last to eat. And my guys can get called out to go to work at any moment, and I may not be on that call with them. So I'm gonna have time to eat, so I'll make sure they're fed and that they're taken care of. So it's. It's a good book, it's a good reminder, and it's a good way to live.

[Berlin]

So, Captain Bruce.

[James Satterfield]

Actually, Jason, I've been nominated to. By the boys to speak for the rest of the guys in the room. Anything by Simon Sinek, who wrote that Leaders Eat Last, Extreme Ownership by Jocko and. And Leif. Radical Candor by Kim Scott, and then Meditations by Marcus Aurelius.

[Nathan Travis]

Radical Candor is by Kim Scott. And the whole idea behind it is if you care about somebody, if you. You care enough about them, you'll correct them because you want them to be better.

[Berlin]

Well said, James.

[Kevin McDonnell]

Outside of, you know, my Favorite book, the Holy Bible. I think the one book that I would recommend would be 21 irrefutable laws of Leadership by John Maxwell. Ironically, it was the first leadership book that was ever given to me, and it's still one that I go back to. And, you know, for the listeners, it's in short, nuggets, very plain, easy to read, and go to YouTube. You can actually watch John Maxwell teach through each chapter. So it's good little nuggets that you can train your crew to be leaders on.

[Berlin]

Awesome books, Obviously, the wealth of resources out there. We talked earlier about, you know, getting out there. There's classes, there's books, there's seminars, there's documentaries and movies that will help us get better. There's a wealth of books that will promise you or promise to help each and every one of you grow. So there you go, listeners. A bunch of books. Here we are. Leadership Challenge. So we're here today because of Troy Gibson and I'm sure Jason Lundin and Ben Thompson, if not each of you. One of you mentioned, you know, spread the word on leadership. Here's a. Here's a. Here's an avenue for the entire wolf pack to spread a message. So the question I have is, how do we continue this leadership challenge? Or, excuse me, how do we continue the conversation on leadership? As a formal question to this group, who do we challenge?

[James Satterfield]

All right, so the first thing that we wanted to do is this is not the full wolf pack. So we are challenging the other portion of the wolf pack. That's Big Ben Kreps, Butcher Frank the Tank, Gavin Keeler, Jonathan Anders, Joshua Brown, Radcliffe, King Thomas Hayes, and Big Lou.

[Berlin]

So there's quite a few individuals there. So what I'll do is I'll gather some contact information, reach out, and see which individuals would be willing to share their leadership message here on the kitchen table. So before we close Today, on the 50th episode, Lasting Wolf Pack Thoughts before we close, starting with Chief Booth.

[Deanne Bruce]

Be curious, not judgmental.

[Berlin]

Chief Thompson.

[Jason Lundin]

Have fun.

[Berlin]

Chief Travis.

[Scott Booth]

Like I said, do the right thing, do it well, and show people you care.

[Berlin]

Captain Bruce.

[Nathan Travis]

Don'T be afraid to be yourself.

[Berlin]

Captain McDonnell, take care of your people.

[Ben Thompson]

And take care of yourself.

[Berlin]

Captain Satterfield.

[Kevin McDonnell]

Relationships matter at all levels. Take care of your crew, and they'll take care of you.

[Berlin]

Newly promoted Battalion Chief Troy Gibson, Senior.

[Troy Gibson]

Love each other.

[Berlin]

Circling back around to Captain Lundin.

[James Satterfield]

Any heights that we've reached, it's because we stand on the shoulders of giants.

[Berlin]

Thank you, everybody, for tuning in today to the kitchen table. We truly hope that you found this time valuable. And we hope that we've inspired you to take action, to lead and to spread the leadership conversation. Until next time, be safe, be intentional, and stay curious.