Ep. 51: Rayne Gray, Assistant Chief - Expanding your Empathy

Summary

Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table: Episode 51 Summary

Title: Expanding Your Empathy
Host: Berlin Maza
Guest: Rayne Gray, Assistant Chief
Release Date: August 30, 2024

---

Introduction

In Episode 51 of Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table, host Berlin Maza, alongside Deputy Fire Chief Bill Mack, welcomes Assistant Chief Rayne Gray. Rayne brings over 26 years of experience from the Phoenix Fire Department and now serves the Buckeye Fire Medical Rescue Department. With a background as a United States Marine, Rayne has steadily climbed the ranks, emphasizing education and leadership development throughout his career.

---

Understanding Leadership Through Self-Awareness

Rayne Gray opens the conversation by addressing a fundamental fear among leaders: the anxiety of inadequacy. He asserts that those who genuinely care about their leadership qualities are often the most invested in personal growth.

Rayne Gray [00:01]: "We all have a fear that we are not adequate. Those who care about outcomes really care about their leadership qualities. They fear that they're not going to measure up to the people they're trying to lead or the task at hand."

Rayne emphasizes that leaders who fear inadequacy are typically proactive—they seek lessons from mistakes, read extensively on leadership, and engage with peers and mentors to continuously develop themselves. Conversely, those who believe they have "it all figured out" are likely missing critical elements necessary for effective leadership in an ever-evolving industry.

---

The Importance of Continuous Learning

Rayne shares his journey of realizing the importance of continuous learning and reading. Inspired by his Marine Corps experience, where leadership discussions were integral, he cultivated a habit of building extensive reading lists supplemented by mentorship.

Rayne Gray [14:28]: "Throughout the course of my career, every time I turn around, there's different recommended reading. I started getting books from different people and asking my mentors, 'What are you reading? What do you suggest I read?' That turned me."

He advocates for leaders to not only read leadership-specific books but also delve into diverse genres that offer valuable lessons applicable to leadership and operational contexts.

Rayne Gray [18:41]: "Harry S. Truman said, 'Not all readers are leaders. All leaders are readers.'"

---

Leadership is About People

Shifting focus to the core of leadership, Rayne underscores that leadership fundamentally revolves around people. He differentiates between management, which focuses on tasks, and leadership, which prioritizes understanding and empathizing with team members.

Rayne Gray [20:28]: "Leadership is about knowing your people. It's about building relationships, developing trust, and expanding your empathy."

He illustrates this with examples from firefighting, where personal life stressors like family issues can impact a firefighter’s performance. Effective leaders must recognize and address these human factors to maintain team performance and morale.

---

Vulnerability as a Leadership Strength

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around vulnerability in leadership. Rayne shares insights on how showing vulnerability fosters trust and strengthens leader-team relationships.

Rayne Gray [36:23]: "Vulnerability is giving someone the power to destroy you and trusting they won't use it."

By admitting his own fears and mistakes, Rayne demonstrates that leaders are human too, making it easier for team members to connect and feel supported. This transparency encourages an environment where team members feel safe to express their own vulnerabilities.

---

Fireground Integrity

Rayne introduces the concept of "fireground integrity," emphasizing the importance of adhering to assigned roles and responsibilities during operations to ensure safety and effectiveness.

Rayne Gray [26:19]: "Fireground integrity is about position and function and doing your job. When you get outside of that integrity, the incident goes poorly, or people get hurt."

He stresses that maintaining fireground integrity is non-negotiable, as it builds trust both within the team and with the community they serve. Consistently upholding standards ensures that firefighters operate safely and effectively under intense conditions.

---

Hot Topic: Vertical Ventilation in Modern Firefighting

The episode delves into the controversial topic of vertical ventilation, questioning its current efficacy in firefighting operations. Rayne discusses how changes in building construction and fire dynamics necessitate a reevaluation of traditional ventilation techniques.

Rayne Gray [40:53]: "Fires are hotter than ever, they're flashing over faster than ever, and building construction is not designed to sustain us on those roofs. So does vertical ventilation actually help us?"

He points out that without coordinating vertical ventilation with water suppression efforts, this tactic can exacerbate fire conditions, making it more dangerous for both victims and firefighters. Rayne calls for a data-informed approach, urging leaders to integrate recent research and fire science into their operational strategies.

Rayne Gray [43:03]: "Be data informed. If you're doing the same thing you've done for the last 20 years, you're probably wrong."

---

Action Items for Leaders at All Levels

Rayne offers practical advice tailored to different leadership stages within firefighting organizations:

1. New Firefighters:

   • Lead from Where You Are: Take initiative in your current role by building relationships and sharing insights.
   • Build a Reading List: Continuously educate yourself through diverse reading materials.

   Rayne Gray [55:22]: "Build a reading list. Identify your strengths and weaknesses, think about yourself, dig into what you know and don't know, and build a plan to fix those deficiencies."

2. Emerging Leaders (Aspiring Company Officers):

   • Embrace Responsibility: Understand the heavy responsibility of safeguarding your team and the community.
   • Lean into Empathy: Develop deep connections with your team members to better support their needs.

   Rayne Gray [51:15]: "Company officers really need to think about what is expected of them and then how they lean into that."

3. Senior Leaders (Established Chiefs):

   • Never Settle: Continuously seek improvement and stay updated with evolving fire dynamics and leadership practices.
   • Stay Curious: Anticipate and adapt to changes to ensure the well-being and effectiveness of your team.

   Rayne Gray [53:43]: "Do not settle. Recognize that the world around you is always shifting, always changing. Stay curious and ask questions."

---

The Power of the Firehouse Kitchen Table

Rayne highlights the pivotal role of the kitchen table in fostering leadership and camaraderie within the firehouse. It serves as a central hub for sharing experiences, learning from each other, and building strong interpersonal connections.

Rayne Gray [55:54]: "The firehouse kitchen table is the epicenter of our culture. So make sure that we use it as the powerful tool that it can be."

He encourages leaders to utilize these informal gatherings to discuss lessons learned, address challenges, and strengthen the collective resilience of the team.

---

Closing Thoughts and Leadership Challenge

As the conversation winds down, Rayne reiterates key leadership principles:

• Lead from Where You Are: Start influencing your environment immediately, regardless of your position.
• Continuous Education: Maintain an active reading list and seek knowledge beyond your immediate field.
• Vulnerability and Empathy: Foster trust by being open about your own challenges and supporting your team’s needs.

Rayne Gray [59:15]: "When it comes to leadership, you have to put in the time. Start leading from where you are. Start reading, start educating, make it part of your conversation with your peers."

He challenges listeners to build a reading list and actively work on understanding their own strengths and weaknesses to enhance their leadership capabilities.

---

Conclusion

Episode 51 of Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table offers invaluable insights into empathetic leadership, the importance of continuous self-improvement, and the need for data-driven operational strategies in firefighting. Rayne Gray's experiences and philosophies provide a robust framework for current and aspiring leaders to develop their skills and foster stronger, more resilient teams.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Rayne Gray [00:01]: "We all have a fear that we are not adequate. Those who care about outcomes really care about their leadership qualities."

• Rayne Gray [14:28]: "Every one of those books has lessons in it, and some of them are specifically self-help, leadership, direct books."

• Rayne Gray [18:41]: "Harry S. Truman said, 'Not all readers are leaders. All leaders are readers.'"

• Rayne Gray [36:23]: "Vulnerability is giving someone the power to destroy you and trusting they won't use it."

• Rayne Gray [26:19]: "Fireground integrity is about position and function and doing your job."

• Rayne Gray [43:03]: "Be data informed. If you're doing the same thing you've done for the last 20 years, you're probably wrong."

• Rayne Gray [55:22]: "Build a reading list. Identify your strengths and weaknesses, think about yourself, dig into what you know and don't know, and build a plan to fix those deficiencies."

---

Final Leadership Challenge

Rayne urges all listeners to take immediate action in their leadership journey:

1. Build a Reading List: Continuously educate yourself through diverse and relevant materials.
2. Identify Strengths and Weaknesses: Self-assess to understand areas for improvement.
3. Develop a Plan: Create a roadmap to address your deficiencies and enhance your strengths.

Rayne Gray [55:22]: "Build a reading list. Identify your strengths and weaknesses... build a plan to fix those deficiencies."

Embrace these steps to grow as a leader, foster meaningful relationships, and effectively navigate the complexities of firefighting leadership.

---

Stay Connected

To continue exploring leadership insights and strategies, tune into Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table and follow Rayne Gray’s contributions on the Fireground Fitness podcast. Embrace a curious mindset, prioritize empathy, and lead with integrity to make a lasting impact in your community and organization.

Transcript

[Rain Gray]

We all have a fear that we are not adequate. And those who, and I think that's the people who really care about outcomes really care about their leadership qualities. They fear that they're not going to measure up to the people they're trying to lead or they're not going to measure up to the task. Those are people who care. The people who are, who are concerned about their performance, who are fear that they're not enough are usually the ones who, and I would expect that they're paying attention to what they're doing. They're looking for lessons learned in the mistakes that they're making. They're reading leadership books. They're. They're going to their peers or their mentors and they're asking questions and they're trying to develop themselves so that they don't make the issue the errors or the they don't have the mistakes, etc. It's the, it's the individual who says, I'm totally good to go. I got it all figured out. There's too many things in this industry, in our business, that are changing constantly. So if you think you have it figured out, you probably need to really reconsider what you're missing. Those are the people that I'm concerned about. The First Responder Liaison Network is proud to present to you the Kitchen Table Podcast. Join us as we explore leadership from perspectives around the globe. From firefighters to fire chiefs, civilians to.

[Chris Stewart]

CEOs.

[Rain Gray]

Our conversations have one simple goal. Build more leaders.

[Chris Stewart]

Welcome everyone, to the Kitchen Table. The Kitchen Table is brought to you by the First Responder Liaison Network. The network is organized for the development, implementation and ongoing support, mentorship and professional development programs inspiring our youth and young adults to mature into engaged civic leaders and resilient community sentinels. Music and graphics are brought to you by Kite Elephant Productions. Our leadership conversation today dives into expanding your empathy and getting to know your people, asking real questions and listening with real intent. We're also talking vulnerability, leaning in and staying curious. Leaders must build a reading list because although not all readers are leaders, but all leaders are readers, our hot topic of the day is vertical ventilation. Should we still be doing it? Stay tuned for the 51st episode of the Kitchen Table. And our guest today is a United States Marine turned to firefighter who has built his career around being a public servant. Over the last 26 years, he has worked his way through the ranks of the Phoenix Fire Department, serving as a firefighter, engineer, captain, battalion chief, and as a Deputy chief over the Phoenix Fire Department Regional Dispatch Center. In 2023, he retired from Phoenix to begin serving as an Assistant Chief for the Buckeye Fire Medical Rescue Department, where he is learning, growing, and stretching into his new position every day. Throughout his career, he has made education a priority, completing multiple professional certifications, as well as completing a Bachelor of Science in Public Safety Administration and a Master of Applied Science in Fire Service Administration from Arizona State University. Our guest enjoys sharing what he's learned and has been teaching and lecturing since he was a corporal of Marines. During his fire service career, he has served as adjunct faculty in the Maricopa Community Colleges, taught and lectured in a wide variety of fire department training programs throughout the state, and has authored and managed innovative curriculum development. In addition to local projects, he sits on the Arizona center for Fire Service Excellence Training Committee, the International Fire Service Training Association Validation Committee, and hosts the popular bi monthly Fire Ground Fitness podcast. Our guest, much like his chocolate lab, has a strong play drive and can be found hiking, cycling, or climbing in the backcountry wherever there is an opportunity to relax. Today, we welcome Assistant Chief Rain Gray to the kitchen table. Good afternoon, Chief. Thank you for joining today.

[Rain Gray]

Oh, thanks, brother. I appreciate you having me on.

[Chris Stewart]

Of course. First off, let's thank Chris Stewart, Obviously an individual who you've known for many years over at Phoenix through this leadership challenge. He said you'd be a phenomenal addition. So. In fact, I was. He emailed me two days ago. Not. Not in. Not in relation to this podcast and the meeting we have today, but he sent me the illuminated sign. I don't know if the new one at Firehouse 15 in Phoenix. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

[Rain Gray]

Oh, nice.

[Chris Stewart]

The. The. Sorry, no good. Dudes. Apparently there's a brand new sign right outside the bay door. And not the bay door, but the entryway from the bays into the. Into the living quarters, obviously, you know. Did you ever work at Firehouse 15 or.

[Rain Gray]

No, but I did work there a handful of times. I never had a permanent assignment there. A busy little firehouse in a tough part of town. So it's a great place to work.

[Chris Stewart]

Yeah. Before we get going, would you mind sharing a little bit about Chief Rain Gray before we dive into this leadership conversation?

[Rain Gray]

Sure. Well, you gave such a brilliant introduction as. As you were saying that stuff. I'm like, did I do all that? So.

[Chris Stewart]

Yeah, you did.

[Rain Gray]

So I've been in this game for 26 years and, you know, I really love that we are having this conversation because for me, I think that discussing what we do in this Business is, is a really important part of moving the, the needle and changing what we do and growing and developing, etc. So, you know, you mentioned in there that, that I think education is important, and I, I absolutely do. And some of that education happens formally when we're going to the universities and the colleges and whatnot. And then so much of our education happens on the line right at the kitchen table. We sit, we talk, we discuss, we grab the whiteboard and we start working through the questions of the day, etc, and our tactics and our strategies and our concerns. And, you know, it's super important that we're willing to be vulnerable with one another, to share the things that we struggle with and, and then work through that stuff. So, you know, you know, who is Rain Gray? You know, I'm the kind of guy who, who wants to dissect and work through and be better tomorrow than I was yesterday. So part of the, part of the conversation we're having today is about growth and development and taking our game to the next level.

[Chris Stewart]

You obviously did 26 years at Phoenix. Is Buckeye a neighboring agency of Phoenix?

[Rain Gray]

Yeah, so we're the western suburb of the Maricopa county alley out here.

[Chris Stewart]

Got it. Question on that, because Chief Stewart also left and went to a neighboring agency as well. So Phoenix is providing obviously phenomenal chiefs to be dispersed throughout the rest of the state, I'm sure the country as well. But obviously your aspirations to branch off. Tell me about that.

[Rain Gray]

Well, I think that, you know, what I would say is the city of Phoenix is a very big fire department, very busy fire department, and the chief officers who are paying attention, who are leaning into the craft come away with a really tremendous skill set. And you take that, that those lessons learned and you go to a neighboring agency and you can really help develop a smaller agency that's growing. And, you know, one of the things that I look forward to in as a, as a transplant, if you will, into a neighboring agency is the opportunity to share the lessons learned and to this, the experiences, et cetera, and pour into the men and women in the Buckeye Fire Department.

[Chris Stewart]

Yeah, we talked on this podcast a lot about getting out of your comfort zone, obviously, to grow. Right. You do an individual that does say, 20, 25, 30 years, even at a single fire department. Many retire out of the single. Out of the department that they, you know, work their whole career. But we do see many that, that do what you say you're talking about. They, they branch out. They obviously put themselves, I would say, right, or I'd like to venture to guess into an uncomfortable position and role. Right? You do 25, 31 way and you say, you know what? I'm going to leave what I know and I'm going to go over here. I know you talked about sharing because a lot of the lessons learned grow. Try to grow a neighboring agency, maybe a smaller agency, but can you talk about that importance of doing stuff like that, like branching out, leaving your comfort zone with the opportunity, but also the privilege to go share what you've learned somewhere else?

[Rain Gray]

Right. Well, so you bring up a really good point. And what comes to my mind right off the bat is that there's a certain amount of arrogance, right, that comes from saying, hey, I. I know some stuff and I'm gonna go to another agency. But. But don't for one minute think that that's not scary as hell. Oh, sure, you're leaving what you're what, you know, you're leaving what's comfortable, and you're heading to a new organization where you don't know the people. And you, you know, we all know in this business that a lot of street cred comes from your experience within an organization. And so as you're meeting new people and building and growing and trying to show up in a new place, that is intimidating and challenging and very difficult. And I think that anybody who's ever taken a promotion or taken a new job or anything like that will attest it's uncomfortable and a challenge. So what I will say to that, though, is that you have to embrace that difficulty and recognize that at every time. And I will say this personal, my personal experience, every time I've promoted or taken on a new position or new opportunity, it's scary. And there's a fear that you're going to fail, and there's a fear that you're going to mess up. And the reality is you will. You're going to make mistakes, you're going to drop things, you're going to break things, you're going to. You're going to screw up, and that's okay. And so as soon as you begin to embrace that, you look into these new challenges and you say, oh, this is going to be okay. And so I'll tell you a funny little anecdote. I called a friend of mine who's a fire chief in Florida, and I said, hey, man, I'm entertaining, leaving Phoenix and trying to take a position in this other organization. And he's like, yeah, that sounds great, man. Good for you. You should do that. And I said, yeah, but I'm a little nervous. I've never been an assistant chief before. And he's like, yeah, okay. So. Well, I just. I just feel like I'm not. I don't know if I have all the right skills. He goes, how long have you been in Phoenix? And I was like, well, 25 years. He's like, what. What do you need? What are you missing? I said, well, I've never built a fire station before. Like, I've never been responsible for that. And that's one of the assignments that I got tasked with as soon as I showed up in Buckeye. Go list of fire station. I've never, never been involved with specking out a fire truck. And he's like, yeah, well, I've never done either one of those things either. And I'm a fire chief. He's like, you have the skills in who you are, the experiences you've had. Lean in on the experiences that you've already had and leverage those experiences in your new position. You're not going to know everything, but what do you know? You know where to go find the information. So go find the information. Phone a friend, send some emails, do some research. Figure it the out.

[Chris Stewart]

Oh, I. I love that, Chief. Thank you for that message. Because, I mean, you. You talked about failing, and you. What I sound. What I heard from that is let failing become a habit, right? I mean, let it become a habit because we're gonna fail. Don't. Don't. If it's. If failing's not a habit, you're not trying hard enough, right? I can't remember who said that. It's like. But he said, if you're not failing, you're not even trying. And it's such a. That's a great message because you're right. Even in my own career, I'll say there were so many points where I was like, I'm not ready for that because I haven't done this. Well, I'm not ready for that because I haven't done this. And it's like, well, it's gonna be rare that you get everything before get to that spot. It's not about having everything right. It's about utilizing what you said. You. You probably. You do have strengths, lean on those. But then also understand that you could find answers to the other things that you don't know yet.

[Rain Gray]

And so we all have a fear that we are not adequate. And those who. I think that's. The people who really care about outcomes, really care about their leadership qualities. They fear that they're not going to measure up to the people they're trying to lead or they're not going to measure up to the task. Those are people who care. The people who are, who are concerned about their performance, who are fear that they're not enough, are usually the ones who. And I would expect that they're paying attention to what they're doing. They're looking for lessons learned in the mistakes that they're making. They're reading leadership books.

[Chris Stewart]

They're.

[Rain Gray]

They're going to their peers or their mentors and they're asking questions and they're trying to develop themselves so that they don't make the issue, the errors, or they don't have the mistakes, et cetera. It's the, it's the individual who says, I'm totally good to go. I got it all figured out. There's too many things in this industry, in our business, that, that are changing constantly. So if you think you have it figured out, you probably need to really reconsider what you're missing. Those are the people that I'm concerned about.

[Chris Stewart]

Yeah. Oh, that's. That's well said. So you mentioned leadership books. You mentioned reading. You meant turning the page, leaning in, always looking for more. So a question on that, Chief, is, is I don't. I mean, this is probably, I don't know, an ignorant comments, but I'll just go ahead and say it.

[Rain Gray]

My favorite.

[Chris Stewart]

Yeah, there you go. Early in my career, I wasn't reading leadership books, right? I mean, I mean, now, like, I'm not in the middle of my career, but the hope would be that everyone is aspiring to become a better leader, right? Regardless of their, their rank or their tenure in an organization. But, I mean, obviously you. I take that you read books, but when did you, you know, say to yourself, right, like, I need to get into leadership books. I need to develop myself. I need to do this and that. I need to be listening to podcasts. I need to be just doing it because a lot of the stuff I'm going to take is not, like, required courses for you in your position. Right. But you're like, you know what? I need to open up this book because I know it's going to become better. When did you, when did you realize that? And so the listeners could start saying to, like, you know what? This is a good point here. I need to start opening up something.

[Rain Gray]

Yeah. Well, so when I was a young Marine, one of my lieutenants, Lieutenant Bill Arnold, I will never forget this man. He. He was transformative in my life in a lot of ways. So I will admit, when I came out of high school, I barely made it out of high school. They. They graduated me so that I would leave. That. That was the plan.

[Chris Stewart]

So I was almost the same. I was almost the same.

[Rain Gray]

So. But the beauty of that is, is I was not a stupid person. I just was. I wasn't an academic and it wasn't, you know, education wasn't important to me. And it just. So therefore I was more, you know, focused on other things. And I get into the Marine Corps and my, my platoon commander, Lieutenant Bill Arnold, he had us all read a book called Killer Angels. And it was a book about the Civil War and the battle of Gettysburg. And then we as a unit talked about it and talked about the lessons learned from that battle, the battle of Gettysburg. And so I don't remember anything about that book at this point. It was 30 plus years ago. What I do remember was we learned something inside the COVID of a book which I had not experienced previous to that. And so I realized that throughout the course of my career, you know, every time I turn around, there's different recommended reading, and I'm like, oh, okay, I can get something from this. And so I started getting books from different people and I started asking my mentors, hey, what are you reading? What do you suggest I read? And that turned me. I've got a. I've got a note in my phone that just has hundreds of books that I have, some of which I've read and some of which are aspirational. Right. For the future.

[Chris Stewart]

Yes.

[Rain Gray]

But each one of those has, every one of those books has lessons in it, and some of them are like specifically self help, leadership, direct books. Right? Sure. But then there's another one. Hold on, I'm looking at my bookshelf. I'm trying to remember. You listen to podcasts and you hear the different folks, leaders, et cetera, who recommend books. And there's one, Jocko Willick. I know everyone here knows Jocko Willink, and he talks about the book About Face. Now, About Face is not specifically a leadership book. It's more of a historical anthology. But in that book, there's so many lessons that get extracted out of it. So you can read these books that are not, you know, that are specifically about leadership, and you can read other books that are more historical or entertaining or what have you, and there's lessons in there. And so that really became exciting for me as I got turned on to that, you know, early in my early 20s. And I just took that lesson with me.

[Chris Stewart]

Yeah. So all your mentors had reading material, reading. They had recommendations, they had all that, right? So, for example, I say that in the sense that, you know, for us, for us out there, like, we. If. If we're considered to be mentors, which, you know, we all should be to. At whatever level that we're at, we should. We should be reading. We should be recommending stuff to those that are working for us with us. Like, we should be bouncing ideas back and forth. Hey, you read this. Let's talk about these lessons learned, right? I mean, it's a rhetorical question, but I guess where I'm going with it is, is we should be pushing each other at all levels to say, hey, are you reading this book? Did you see that documentary? Did you listen to this podcast? This was good. This is good, right? I mean, it's about 100.

[Rain Gray]

And here's the thing. The obstacles have been removed. I have an audible account, as I'm sure you do, right. When you're commuting, you listen to aud, you listen to books on Audible. And yes, yes, take stuff away from it that way. Like, you know, I'll come home at the end of the day and I'll sit down with a book and, hey, man, it puts me right to sleep, you know, But I can listen to an audible, right?

[Chris Stewart]

Yeah, agreed.

[Rain Gray]

That's fantastic. So there's different ways to do it. And I think, I love the idea that you mentioned of. Of sitting down with your, you know, your peers and, and talking about this stuff and processing what you're learning from it. That's. So that's where the learning, or what you read in the book, that's where the learning really takes place. You know, you say, man, this guy said this thing in the book. How do we do that in real life? What does that look like on the fireground? What does that look like in our firehouse? You know, and then, you know, what does that look like as a leader? Me, you know, rain being a leader. What does that look like?

[Chris Stewart]

Oh, love that.

[Rain Gray]

And there's a quote, you know, that I. I think about periodically, which is Harry S. Truman said, not all readers are leaders. All leaders are readers.

[Chris Stewart]

Oh, yes, yes.

[Rain Gray]

So that quote resonates, right? Like, hey, you need to be paying attention to the big picture, Right? We all read the. The company officer book, right? Talks about the. The foundational leadership principles, servant leader, transformational leader, you know, whatever. All the different types of leaders, right?

[Chris Stewart]

Yeah.

[Rain Gray]

But the reality is that as a leader, it. Your one style does not fit all.

[Chris Stewart]

Exactly.

[Rain Gray]

The Leader needs to learn to be the flexible individual. So you are looking at the different people who are your, who are in your responsibility area and you're saying, well, what does, what does John need? What does Susie need? What does Tom need? And you have to be a leader for that individual. So leadership is about, is an aggregate of all the different things that you can learn to do. And for me, it's kind of funny because I go back to my days in the Marine Corps. Leadership was a freaking knife hand and a sharp word. Right?

[Chris Stewart]

Yeah.

[Rain Gray]

Do this thing, get your ass in line, Go. Right. And I, I learned over time that people need some different things from you as a leader. So how do you, how do you do that?

[Chris Stewart]

Yeah.

[Rain Gray]

Right. You have to have the tools in your toolbox to be able to figure out what that person needs. Absolutely. That's just the tip of the spear.

[Chris Stewart]

Absolutely. Well, let's just jump right there then, since. Or stay there, I should say. So. One of the main topics we're going to talk about today is leadership is about people. Right? We've talked about that quite a bit, both on this podcast, but I think a lot of people would say that's a true statement in any industry. But can you talk about what you mean by leadership is about people? Can you talk about relationship building? You talked about your mentors, you talked about idea bouncing. You said you called a buddy of yours, a fire chief down in Florida. So there's relationships there, there's about, it's about people. So can you run with the concept of leadership is about people.

[Rain Gray]

We get caught up in the idea of management, right? We're trying to accomplish a task and, and get things done. But the, the operative piece of that is the human being that's carrying out the mission, right? They're, they're carrying the load, literally physically doing the work. And people are messy and complicated. So what, what do they have going on that presents an obstacle to the work that you're doing? Right. And so let's just use a fire company as a specific example. So your firefighter comes in, they're, you know, some of them are married, they're having kids, that, those are life stressors. And we can tell people, hey man, you gotta leave your shit at the door. But that's just not real. It's not real. It's not a realistic expectation because people have to, they're going to carry that stuff with them, period. So, so you as a leader need to know your people. You need to be trying, at least trying to get to know them. Right. And what does that require? Well, that requires you being a truly thoughtful and empathetic person. And so that takes work. So leadership becomes laborious. Right. You have to put in time and do the work. So you come into the fire station, let's just say as a captain, and you've got three firefighters or an engineer, a firefighter and two firefighters. And your job is to figure out what is their motivation for the day. What are the obstacles to completing the mission. So what, you know, what are your, what are your imperatives for the day? What are you going to do? Well, we're going to run calls, we're going to pt, we're going to eat chow, and we're going to take care of the station and the equipment. Okay, fair enough. Well, what if one of your members is, you know, their kid is in the hospital or they're, they're, they got into a knockdown, drag out fight with their wife? Well, if you don't understand that you're going, or you don't see it or you don't pay attention to it, you just say, hey, leave your at the door. You're going to have a member of your team that is performing at a lower level and you as the leader need to understand that and need to be able to affect change on that or at least demonstrate some empathy.

[Chris Stewart]

Yes.

[Rain Gray]

Right. Maybe that's not the day just to roll out a new program and say, all right, we're going to, you know, whatever, whatever the program might be.

[Chris Stewart]

No, and I love this and I, I wanted to interject a couple times, but I, I, I had to let you keep going because this is, this is so key something that we haven't had many of our leaders on this show talk about. I mean, you talked about relationships, talked about at the company level, understanding your, your, your crew members, but we haven't talked much about really diving down and finding out what motivates our people. But what also what obstacles may or may not be in the way of them. We'll say performing at the highest level as can be just throwing it out there. So how does one develop that? Right, so you said, you said empathy, which is huge. We talk about emotional intelligence on this show, but how does say an officer will say just, we'll keep it there, keep it simple. How's a company officer develop that? Right. Maybe that wasn't a part of their development in becoming an officer. Maybe not. That's an excuse because I believe everyone need, you know, to, to, to build that. Both aspiring to be in the role and Currently in the role. But how does one build those attributes, if you will, to become an individual that says, I'm going to find out how. What motivates my people. I'm also going to make sure I find out what obstacles are in their way each and every day to make sure that we all perform at the highest level every day. How does one do that?

[Rain Gray]

First of all, the fact that you're asking that question of yourself is, is amazing. So you ask that question, then you say, okay, where do I, how do I get to know my people better? So it's about building relationships, developing trust, and then from there it's, it's expanding your empathy. Right. And, and that starts with listening. And listening is a, is an art form, right? We all like to think that we listen, we ask a question, and then somebody starts talking at us and well, yeah, yeah, I'm listening, I'm listening. But you really have to make that a deliberate effort. And there's tools out there. And, and by tools, I mean just practices that you can instill into your, into your daily walking, if you will. There's a great book by a guy named Derek Gaunt. It's called Ego, Authority, Failure. And that was given to me. Shoot, it might have been Chris Stewart. Actually, that book was handed to me. And that book is written by a, it is about leadership and communication. Written by a hostage negotiator. Now, you want to talk about having hard conversations. What? Hostage negotiators are having the hardest conversations on the planet. Right. And so you think, you know, you think talking to your spouse is difficult.

[Chris Stewart]

Yeah, right, right.

[Rain Gray]

It's almost like a hostage negotiation. Anyways, all joking aside, the premise is how do you establish rapport and connection with somebody as quickly as possible? And so in this book, he talks about that and he gives you these practical tools for doing that. And I'm not going to get into it because I'm not going to do it justice, but go read the book.

[Chris Stewart]

Absolutely.

[Rain Gray]

It's when you start realizing, hey, I need to connect with people. Now you have to figure out how to do that. And it starts with sitting down, asking real questions, and then listening with real intent. Getting to know the person, taking the information with you, then doing something with that and learning to, to truly be empathetic and to truly care about your people.

[Chris Stewart]

I love that. I mean, I wrote that down. Building trust and expanding your empathy. Never heard that. Expanding your empathy. That's, that's, that's, you know, we hear, you know, you got to have sympathy, you got to have Empathy for your people. And you said expanding your empathy. So it's like a growth mindset. It's always growing, changing, and it's not a limited, you know, Love that. So anyways, Chief, what's fire ground integrity?

[Rain Gray]

Well, it's about position and function and, and doing your job. You think about, you come onto the fire ground and you get an assignment and whatever that assignment is, right? Your assignment is to go take the front door or you're going to the roof and hey, you got to secure utilities. Well, if you're on your way to go do that assignment and you get distracted and you decide to go do something else, the person who's the incident commander now thinks you're doing one thing and you're off doing another. You've disrupted the integrity of the fire ground. Right. We, we do high risk work as a, as a collaborative group of folks, right? And you know, engine company shows up, high risk organization. But then other units are showing up and joining that incident. And for it to go successfully, we all have to do our part. Now if you get an assignment, holding that assignment with integrity is important. So that's what fireground integrity is. When you get outside of that integrity, the incident goes poorly or people get hurt, injured or killed, you know, and you could, I like to extend that integrity out and it's just integrity, frankly. But in the fire service, in the fire service, we are highly trusted by the community and we're highly trusted by our peers, our co workers and, you know, our family members and our ability to, if we get outside of our integrity, we, we violate the trust of that relationship. And it just, it's an insidious downward spiral from there.

[Chris Stewart]

And you just mentioned the community in your years of experience, Chief, whether it's a Marine, as a firefighter, as a chief role in two different organizations, there's obviously some items to you that's like, you know what? This is a must. My leaders need to have this, or leaders in the fire service have to have this first.

[Rain Gray]

Non negotiable, obviously. Ciao. Gotta have good. Ciao. Okay, this is a tough question. And I say that because there's so many. This job is very complex. And so I had to pull back a little bit. Okay, what all these little details, right, that are non negotiable with me. What are, what, what are they all encapsulated by? And for me, it, it boiled down to something that I heard Frank Lieb say one day, which is training every tour. And that resonates with me. I never really put a I never really put a label on it. It just was something that we did. And so for me, there's been a couple of incidents in my career where I've showed up and I watch a firefighter do something that is completely off script outside of what we do in our business, right? And, and by that, I mean they make a gross error. And not, we're not talking something simple. We're just talking colossal mistake. And when you ask them about it afterwards, you're like, I just, I. The shades came down. Or I, you know, I just, I haven't had, I haven't worked a pediatric code in a long time, and I panicked and I'm like, okay. So for me, the non negotiables is our knowledge, skills and abilities, right? Our KSAs are absolutely critical to the work we do. And frankly, the community expects us to show up and to be, you know, superheroes, right? A super athlete, you know, a medical doctor, you know, an astrophysicist, whatever, right? They expect us to be complete package. And when we show up and we haven't done the fundamentals to maintain our basic skill set or to even advance our skill set based on the context of this, of the, this profession, we are not serving at the level that, that we should be. And to me, that's the non negotiable. So training every tour, I don't think that that means you're laying canvas every single day, but I think what it means is you're assessing what your needs are as a leader. You're, you're assessing what your team's needs are, and then you're doing things to fill those needs. So if you have a firefighter who's, who's learning to become a chauffeur, learning to become a pump operator, then get them out there and do pump operations, help them develop the skill set. You had a backseat firefighter who wants to be a captain, get them some sets and reps, go down to the command training center or go to, you know, go sit down with other company officers and do whiteboard and, you know, work through some stuff. You know, just figure out what your needs are and then go fill those gaps.

[Chris Stewart]

Yeah, I know. It's. The question I'm going to have is it's going to vary com tremendously. But I've always wondered what a, what a, what a training day look like or a drill day or training day look like at a busy house in Phoenix, you know, a house that was running 15, 20 calls a day, and they still made time to train because you Talk about training of a tour. That could be every day, every, every, every set of shifts, every month, whatever it is. But you're always training, right? Concentrating. What does the typical training day look like in the midst of a busy day in Phoenix?

[Rain Gray]

Well, it's. It starts with having a plan. And I know that sounds silly, but you come in with a plan, you know you're going to train. So it's not, you're not just trying to squeeze it in. You actually have a structured plan. And then if you're going to be that busy, it starts with calling your battalion and saying, hey, I'm going to need 30 minutes out of service. I am doing this training at this location. So you're not wasting a lot of time trying to figure out what you're going to do. You're not trying to figure out where you're going to do it. You have a plan in place. And so when you come in, you're optimizing your time by having a preparation in place. And then you call your bc, you say, hey, I need this time. And you know, as the command officers in these busy departments cherish their folks that are out training and so they make room for them and they go out and they train.

[Chris Stewart]

Sounds like leaders need to have the ability to plan well, not waste time and have a good relationship with, whether it be the BC peers or the other companies around you.

[Rain Gray]

Right.

[Chris Stewart]

Fire Ground Fitness podcast. Tell me about it.

[Rain Gray]

Well, much like yourself, I saw a desire and a need to have conversations about the business that we're in. And so it started off as a blog, actually, back in 07, I worked at a little dirty firehouse called Station 39 in, in South Phoenix and. Busy little firehouse. But we were, we go out in the bay and we had a little gym out there and we were grinding and working out and doing training that was very firefighter centric. And so I come from a background as I was a triathlete way back in the day and, and for many, many years, I, I tried to train like an endurance athlete. And I realized that that, that does that, that doesn't hit the modalities that a firefighter needs to hit. I had great energy, a great endurance. I could go long with bottles. That was no problem. But I started losing strength and I started, you know, I didn't have the, the foundation that I really needed. So I started looking at training in a different way from a physical fitness perspective and started looking at, you know, power and explosiveness and other elements of training. So I started to do A more of a blend and made it very fire centric kind of work hardening in a sense. Anyways, years go by, I start promoting, I move out of the station and the blog falls off. And I was like, well, one day I'm working at the, at the command training center and I said, you know where I'm watching these deputies have this conversation and they're talking about all these fascinating concepts that I'd never heard before. I was like, man, this is amazing. This is the kind of kitchen table talk I want to be having. We should, we should start a podcast. They were like, oh yeah, you should do that.

[Chris Stewart]

Of course.

[Rain Gray]

I'm like, yeah, I'm just, I'm just a baby. I, I can't be doing that. No way, man. Anyways, long story longer. The Fireground Fitness podcast was born. I just stole the name from the blog, carried it over, love it because for me it just went hand in hand in glove. Right. So some of the concepts we started talking about early on was just health and wellness. And yeah, they tied right into the fireground fitness. But for me, fireground fitness became more global. Right. It's not just about what you, how you move on the fire ground or your cape, your strength or your explosiveness. It's about the space between your ears. Right. Your ability to think on the fire ground, your fire ground intellect, if you will. That all has to be developed. And then there's the other part of this, which is the mental health component. This job takes a toll on people. And so how do we maintain our mental and emotional wellness? So to me, all of those things need to be part of the conversation. When I was coming on the job, you know, in the, in the late 90s, the, you know, you didn't talk about your mental health. That was not a thing.

[Chris Stewart]

Yep.

[Rain Gray]

And so, and so my objective is to kind of normalize that, that conversation. Normalize the conversation around tactics and, and not polarizing it. But, but let's, let's be vulnerable. I used that word earlier. One another and have real conversations here and be willing to talk about the dirty dark secrets in the fire service. Let's unpack that and be honest with one another about what we're doing here. And I think when we do that, we level up in our level of professionalism and our level of expertise and our, and our total wellness improves also.

[Chris Stewart]

So let's just stay there for a minute because you've mentioned it a few times now and it's a leadership podcast and a leadership conversation. Yeah, I heard you say Vulnerability A few times. Obviously, it goes without saying that a leader needs to be vulnerable in many ways. When did you recognize that vulnerability was a key attribute in a leader? And I mean, you know what I mean? Like, so vulnerability is not something that we think of right off the bat. You're a new recruit, new firefighter. You're not thinking, vulnerability is what I need. Right. That's. That's one of very few attributes.

[Rain Gray]

You're thinking, yeah, right.

[Chris Stewart]

I'm being vulnerable right now. But being in this fire academy. No, but, but vulnerability is key in, in being transparent and building trust and like you said, expanding your empathy with others. But can you run with, with vulnerability and the importance of it in a strong leader?

[Rain Gray]

Yeah. Well, let me start with this. So there's a Simon Sinek quote, and he says, vulnerability is giving someone the power to destroy you and trusting they won't use it.

[Chris Stewart]

Wow.

[Rain Gray]

So when we understand what vulnerability is, vulnerability isn't just over sharing all the time. And you know, here's all my. Right. Because people don't need to hear that, but they do need to hear that you are. That you are subject to errors as well. Right. So as a leader, if you walk around pounding your chest like, I never make any mistakes, well, that's just disingenuous. Yeah, right. It's not real. And people don't. Won't connect with you and won't follow you if they don't believe. Yeah, right. If they don't. If they don't believe what you're selling, they're not going to follow you. So this goes back to establishing relationships and people want to connect with their leaders. That doesn't mean you're going to be best friends and you're going to be out drinking all the time and hanging out and whatever that means to you. Right. But it's about connection in a way that you are showing that you're a human being and that you truly empathize and truly care about them. And how do you do that? Well, you show a little bit of your underbelly. Right. I'm a human being too. I've been a fire captain in the front right seat, nervous about what is going to happen on this call. I've been there. I'm not going to tell you that I wasn't, you know, the first time I key to Mike. I wasn't a little nervous about how the words coming out of my mouth. Right?

[Chris Stewart]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Rain Gray]

So I think that that that shows you, that it shows people that you are in the same place that they Are they either are currently or that, you know, when you talk about. You know, I mentioned earlier, I didn't use the word imposter syndrome, but it's. It's the idea of imposter syndrome, feeling like you're not good enough. Right. And when you admit that, yeah, hey, man, I'm. I. So I went to my boss recently, right? I said, hey, I'm a brand new assistant chief. What am I afraid of? I'm spinning 12 plates. I'm afraid I'm gonna drop six of them. And he said, yeah, yeah, let me tell you a story. And he tells me a story. He's like, you're gonna drop a couple plates. Just do your best to make sure they're not the glass ones, drop the plastic ones, drop the rubber one, Right. But yeah, you know, so prioritize and execute. Figure out what you need to do and then do. And then execute accordingly. But because he was willing to say to me, oh, yeah, yeah, don't worry, you're gonna drop some plates, that helped me. So his vulnerability in that moment when he's saying, yes, I've been down this road. Yeah, I see you. I see what you're struggling with. I feel you. I've been there myself. It's going to be okay. Yeah, that helped me profoundly.

[Chris Stewart]

I bet, I bet that. I mean, those are powerful words. And it goes to, you know, the say that we've all heard, you know, that's leading by example, right? I mean, if you are vulnerable yourself, you're telling others you, you know, feel a certain way, that you're nervous at times and making a decision or whatever you're doing, that's. You're telling others that work for you with you and around you that, wow, this he is. This he or she is human. They. They feel that way. That didn't. Some people might even say, like, wow, I didn't even realize you got nervous. I mean, that's goes such a long way when you're telling others that, you know what? Yeah. And. And it's. You're basically telling others that it's okay to be nervous. It's okay that if you're gonna fail, it's okay for you to be vulnerable. And look, I did it too. Or I am too.

[Rain Gray]

It's interesting. I've said to a few folks over the years, like, oh, man, I got. I got really nervous, you know, public speaking. And they're like, seriously, you didn't look nervous.

[Chris Stewart]

Yeah, wow.

[Rain Gray]

And I'm like, yeah, it's like a duck on the water. Right. My feet underneath the water, paddling like crazy, but on the top.

[Chris Stewart]

Yeah. Common collective.

[Rain Gray]

Yeah. I'm. I'm like, I'm faking it, man. I'm just faking it.

[Chris Stewart]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rain Gray]

And that's. And it's. When you. When you share that with people, it humanizes you in connection.

[Chris Stewart]

Yes.

[Rain Gray]

So I think that's. That's an important part of that.

[Chris Stewart]

Oh, thank you for sharing that. Okay, this is the hot coffee time. Chief. We talked a little bit offline, and what podcast would be a good podcast without getting into something that's either a little controversial or something that has people at the tip of their toes saying, whoa, are we really going to go there? So the answer to that is, yes, we are. So vertical ventilation, Chief, Obviously there's different thought processes, different philosophies, different ways of doing things. Right, right. Wrong or indifferent. Different is okay. But the hot topic we were going to talk about is vertical ventilation. And should we still be doing vertical ventilation? So without me asking any other questions beyond that, let's go into your hot topic of the day.

[Rain Gray]

So this is an interesting dynamic that we are facing in today's day and age. We talk about how new modern construction, we talk about what we understand about the new operational context. And buildings are not. Are not standing up as long as they used to, and we have to be mindful of that. And so fires are also reaching flashover much more quickly than they ever did before. Right. And this is in the last 20 years or so. The operational context has evolved to a point that we're really struggling. And. And by struggling, I just mean fires are hotter than ever, they're flashing over faster than ever. And building construction is not designed to sustain us on those roofs. So the question becomes, does vertical ventilation actually help us? And if you get into the data, you get into the science, right, the ul, et cetera, and look at the work that they're doing. We realize that unless you're venting in the right place at the right time and you're bringing water with you, you're actually making the conditions worse. So if you can't coordinate your vertical ventilation with the. With the suppression, with water, getting on the fire, are you actually helping yourself by getting up on that roof? So it becomes a really difficult conversation because it's a fantastic tool for us. And anecdotally, all of us go in the fire, the guys get up on the roof, you hear the saws ripping and they cut and the smoke lifts because they've changed the flow path. But the problem Is if we're not ready to get water on the fire, it makes conditions worse. It gets hotter, which is not good for victims. The fire grows proportional to the amount of ventilation that we've given it, which also deteriorates the structure and makes conditions hotter for us on the inside, making it difficult. More difficult to do your job. So what I'm saying, and my hot topic is, I guess, is I think it's important that we are thoughtful, smart, aggressive, but mindfulness of what we're doing, and I think we have to be data informed and really be thinking about how this research informs what we're doing, and then we have to think about it and make some changes potentially.

[Chris Stewart]

Oh, so you mentioned something important. You said data informed. We had an individual on the show a few months back, Mark Emery and Stuart Rose, both out of the Seattle area. They said this statement, if you will. He said, we don't. As a fire service, we don't fight enough fires to truly understand fully, so we have to study fires. So I think what you're saying about data informed is key. Just because, you know, when you talk about ul, when you talk about the new studies, when you talk about, for example, new construction, we have to study this stuff, right? And theory, I'm not gonna say theory changes because theory is theory, but things evolve. Things are different. Construction's different, materials are different. Things that are burning are different. So I have two questions, Chief. Are new textbooks updating, you know, textbooks that were given, say, recruits in the academies, or those textbooks that are given to the, you know, company officer, the fire service today, are they updating to align with some of this new research, if you will, from UL and the other organizations that study this stuff? But then all. Well, let's start with that one first. I have a second one. I'll ask in a minute.

[Rain Gray]

So simply stated. Yes. The question is, is. Is it updating at the speed at which is relevant is one of the questions. And our organizations out there paying attention and adopting the changes. So back in 2016, the Phoenix fire Department, we rolled out fire dynamics training to the entire organization, and it was met with some resistance, largely because members had their lived experiences. And so they're like, I don't know what you're talking about, man. You cut a hole in the roof, the smoke lifts. And that is true. What you have to recognize, though, is operational context matters. And so in an agency like Phoenix, where you've got four trucks on your tailboard, you're going to overwhelm that fire with resources very quickly. But if you're in an area where the response times are protracted and you don't necessarily have support on your tailboard, you cut that hole, you open that building up, you change those conditions and you may not be able to truly affect changes to the conditions of the building.

[Chris Stewart]

So question further on that is to just elaborate. Everything that you just said is when did you start learning about the change? Not just learning. Right. Because the learning and the changes have been happening ever since, you know, the studies have come out probably a decade or so ago, more than that now, you know, you've probably been on your fair share of the roof. So you've probably been in incident command with a bunch of crews that, on different fires that were, you know, were up vertical venting, but then obviously this shift. So a lot of experience in a department, but also embracing the change and philosophy and the studies and then moving forward. So when did you and I bring it up? Simply because what can leaders do right outside the policy changes? Like what can fireground incident commanders do? What can initial incident company officers do regarding vertical ventilation? And just a topic around, you know, should we be doing it? Should we not be doing it? I don't even want to say contrary to what their policy and best practice is, but embracing the knowledge, basically what you're saying.

[Rain Gray]

So that's a, so change is very complicated, right? Yes. And because, and let's talk and we'll talk about, we're talking about vertical ventilation. You're talking about an institution that is, that is deeply seated. Yes.

[Chris Stewart]

Right.

[Rain Gray]

And so for us to come in and say no more, no more vertical event, you could make a policy change overnight. You could pull the saws off trucks and you could say we're not doing that anymore. Anymore. That type of knee jerk reaction is a swing to, is a polarizing swing to one side. So the most important thing we can do is dive into the research and say, okay, what, what are the, the fire science engineers telling us? How does that match our lived experience? How? And then where's the operational change that, where that meets in the middle. So we have to, we have, we talk about being data informed. That's what we're talking about is let's, let's pay attention to what's happening. But if you're going to put your head in the sand and say, nope, nope, nope, I'm just going to do what I've always done. Screw you guys, I know what I know. Well, you know, Fire Chief Alan Brunasini once said, if you're doing the same thing You've always done. And I'm paraphrasing here, I. Please, it's not a direct quote. If you're doing the same thing you've done for the last 20 years, you're probably wrong.

[Chris Stewart]

Yeah.

[Rain Gray]

So it's because the changes are happening around us all the time. So I guess, you know, what I would suggest is as an organization, as a leader, you need to gather the information, put it. Get some training, put together, share it with your membership, and then work toward changing in the right direction that you want your organization to go. But, you know, we. There's a thread out there in the. In the community. You want to talk about Hot Topics, I'll throw one more on the table, please. There is a movement where we say. Where people are saying, hey, man, it's all about them. Hashtag them. Right. And. And I would agree. We are here for the community. And then it's about risk management. Right. Are we willing. We gonna. Are we gonna, you know, just pin our ears back and go with no regard for our own safety at all? Well, that's what some would have you believe, right, that that's what we should be doing. We are here for the community. All else aside. But the reality is that I would. I would submit to you that there's really never a good time for a firefighter to die in Atlantic duty. Right. And so if there are things that we can do to prevent our firefighters from getting hurt, injured, or killed, then we have an obligation to do those things. We also swore an oath to show up for the community. So don't hear me wrong here. I am not saying that we shouldn't show up for the community. We need to show up for the community. But the question I have for you is how do we do that? And when is. You know, if you get killed on the way to the call, you're driving like a bat out of hell. You wreck your engine at an intersection with another engine, now you're both out of the mix. Who's going to save that person? Right? So we talk about risk management. We have to. We don't. We can't eliminate risk on this job. It is a very dangerous job. So we just have to be really smart about when we're. What we're doing, where we're doing it, and why we're doing it.

[Chris Stewart]

Yeah. Be data informed, being open to change, learning, putting heads together. And I like what you said, too, is. And it's something I struggle with is, you know, sometimes we feel like we might have a solution to what we would seem as an easy problem to fix and to throw that all we need to do is X knowing that like what you said. Okay, we're no longer going to vertical vent. Yeah, good luck with that. It's about meeting in the middle. It's about understanding what changes we can make to go in the right direction. And yeah, you're never going to get rid of a way of doing things just by, you know, the drop of a hat or so to speak. Well, Chief, we like to offer action items. Right. We just talked about a phenomenal hot topic. Thank you for your insight on that. But now if you were going to talk to individuals, right. And you're going to say, you know what, if you start doing these things you'll probably grow as in fact not probably you will grow as a leader in your role. So regarding today, we talked about leadership is about people. We talked about vulnerability, talked about fire ground integrity. We talked a whole about a whole lot of things. If you're going to talk to a group of firefighters, let's say newer firefighters, what would you tell them? What kind of advice would you give them in their early journey in becoming a leader?

[Rain Gray]

Well, first of all, I would say lead from where you are, right? You the opportunity to lead up the chain of command is present from the back seat. It requires building those relationships and sharing information and insights and then you have an obligation to share that with your chain of command. So take that responsibility seriously and begin providing leadership to your organization from where you sit. And it might be senior firefighter to junior firefighter or it might be junior firefighter up to the company officer and then on from there. But don't be afraid to share what you see and call it out.

[Chris Stewart]

Great advice. How about an emerging leader, say an individual aspiring company officer, maybe a newer company officer. What would you say to those individuals to grow, continue to grow in their, in their new roles as leaders?

[Rain Gray]

So we, I mentioned Simon Sinek earlier and I I wrote down this book leaders eat last and I think that the, the premise, largely the premise is learning how to truly serve and, and how to empathize and serve your people. This is a really important responsibility and I'll just say the end the the company officers is the most pivotal role in the fire service. Right. The fire chief can stand on top of admin and wave their fists and demand policy following of policy etc, but unless the company officer carries that responsibility and carries it into the field, it won't get done. So the company officer is mission critical. And also I'll just add this, not to put too much weight on our company officers, but there is a weight there that we don't often speak to, and that is the burden of responsibility for the men and women that work on their truck. Right. Your crew, you are responsible for their lives and you're responsible to their family and their. And the community and the city management. Right? They're all going to look to you, and if something bad happens, they're going to look to you and say, what. What were you doing or not doing? Why were you outside of policy? Right. And that's your responsibility as a company officer. So those concentric rings of responsibility to all these different people is really, really a significant burden that you have to carry as a company officer. So what I would tell you is company officers really need to. Or emerging leaders who are, who are striving toward that, you know, that company officer level really need to think about what is expected of them and then how they lean into that. So you're responsible for their life safety. And you're like, I was in a dark fire. I don't know what they did. I don't know where they are. They fell to the floor. How was I supposed to know? Well, guess what? This starts before. It starts with training and developing and making sure your folks have the KSAs to be successful. It starts with knowing them, knowing their families, knowing what their struggles are, and then helping them manage that stuff. Right? So anyways, so as an emerging leader, it's a. You really start to need to lean into the empathy learning. Lean into your people, get to know who they are, what they're about, and help them be successful.

[Chris Stewart]

Risk management, like you said. How about senior or established leaders of organizations? Chief, you held many chief officer ranks both at Phoenix and your new department. A lot of perspective regarding leadership. Chief, how do chief officers continue that journey in leadership?

[Rain Gray]

Do not settle. Do not settle. Don't. Don't settle in to what you're doing. Recognize that the world around you is always shifting, always changing. And you got to stay curious. Stay curious and ask questions. Get to know the youth in your organization. Ask questions of them. Really stay connected to your people. Yeah, that's really. I think that's the main thing. And I would also say just lastly, and I think this is really a pretty simple thing, but look up and look out, right? Your job is to see shit coming and to be mindful of that. And so if Fire Dynamics is an example, is sneaking up on you and you're like, oh, my God, I had no idea. Well, you weren't paying attention because the last so I think was like early 2000s, when FDNY and LA City were digging into the fire behavior stuff with NIST and UL. Okay. It's been a long. It's been a minute.

[Chris Stewart]

Yeah.

[Rain Gray]

Right. So we need to be, as leaders, we need to be watching for stuff changing coming down the road because our obligation is to get in front of that stuff, to take care of our people. Right. We can't serve the community unless our firefighters are healthy, strong, robust, well trained, well tooled, etc. So our job is to make sure we're aware of the stuff that is going to impact that and get ahead of it. Right. Cool. Stay curious, my friends.

[Chris Stewart]

Stay curious. I love that. That's how we actually end the show with stay curious. Y okay, listeners challenge. Chief. So before we go to the leadership challenge, we like to say, hey, Chief, we've talked unpacked quite a bit here today. And if you were going to give a message to listeners to start doing something right. They're all listening in. What would you challenge all listeners to start doing today if not already?

[Rain Gray]

Build a reading list. Number one. There you go. Number one. Build a reading list and then I think, identify your strengths and weaknesses, really think about yourself, dig into what you know and don't know, and then build a plan to fix those deficiencies.

[Chris Stewart]

Yeah, there you go. It's simple, right? Some of these things.

[Rain Gray]

Simple, not easy.

[Chris Stewart]

Yeah, simple, not easy. You mentioned the kitchen table a couple times. Chief, how important or how influential is the kitchen table at the firehouse? When we're talking about influence, leadership, any.

[Rain Gray]

Of the above, it's super important. Just last week, myself and the fire chief went out to a station to sit at the kitchen table and talk with the troops. Those relationships are important. The, the firehouse kitchen table. From the day that you come on this job until the day you leave. This job is the epicenter of a firehouse for so many reasons. Right. I can, I'm reflecting back as we're saying, as I'm saying this and I just. So many amazing moments took place at the kitchen table. Lessons learned, life lessons, fireground lessons, story shared, tear shed, etc. So the firehouse kitchen table is pivotal place in our culture. So make sure that we, that we use it as the tool, the powerful tool that it can be. And of course, put the chow on the table.

[Chris Stewart]

Don't mean the good chow, the non negotiable good chow on the table. Absolutely, absolutely. Quality and quantity, you know, can't have either. It's not either or it's both.

[Rain Gray]

That's right.

[Chris Stewart]

Okay. The leadership challenge. Chief, we're here today because Chief Chris Stewart challenged you to be on the show because he said you'd have a great message to share with the listeners, as we all had today. So thank you. But now we get to ask you, Chief, to help us further the conversation on leadership, because leadership need never stop. Leadership in the fire service need continue to grow, and that's why we're here. So is there someone else out there, Chief, that you believe and would like to challenge to be a future guest to share a leadership message?

[Rain Gray]

Absolutely. So I got two. Is that cool?

[Chris Stewart]

Yes, we've had a few. Two tours. Yes, absolutely.

[Rain Gray]

Okay, so Assistant Chief Kelvin Barty, tremendous, tremendous individual. He retired from Phoenix as an assistant chief, and then he went dark for a few minutes, and then he came back out in Rio Verde, actually.

[Chris Stewart]

And. Okay, okay.

[Rain Gray]

Really neat guy. Has some amazing, amazing thoughts, and you'd really do well to hear from him. And the other person who I just absolutely love is Division Chief Heather Marquis from Alameda County. Amazing, amazing human being and fantastic guest. I did have her on the Fire Ground Fitness podcast and amazing conversation. She's well traveled and well informed, and she's an author and just an amazing human being. So that is awesome conversation as well.

[Chris Stewart]

That's. Thank you so much. What I'll do is I'll. I'll reach out to Chief and just gather contact information of both Chief Barty and Division Chief Heather. Heather. How do you pronounce her last name?

[Rain Gray]

Marquis.

[Chris Stewart]

Marquis. Before we close today, what is Chief Rain up to? Obviously, you're over there. Buckeye Fire Medical and Rescue Department. Are you over there as well at B shifter with Chris or what else are you up to?

[Rain Gray]

No, no, I don't have any side hustles right now.

[Chris Stewart]

Okay. Okay.

[Rain Gray]

Other than the Fire Girl Fitness podcast. That's right. Which I put out every couple weeks. And other than that, just gonna jabbing every day and.

[Chris Stewart]

Well, there you go. The Firefound Fireground Fitness podcast. Tune in. You've been at it for how many years now? How long has that been going on?

[Rain Gray]

Well, we just crossed over 100 episodes, so.

[Chris Stewart]

Several years, put it that way. Several years. There you go. Well, before we close today, Chief, lasting leadership thoughts that you'd like to leave listeners with.

[Rain Gray]

I think, in summary, when it comes to leadership, you have to put in the time. So start leading from where you are. Start reading, start educating, make it part of your conversation with your peers. Talk about elements of leadership and really be self critical. Not a bad way, but in a way that is about developing yourself. Ask yourself questions if you're being effective, if you're not, et cetera, and figure out what those gaps are.

[Chris Stewart]

So I love how you say that, Chief. You said leading where you are. Start reading, listening, be vulnerable, and. And a whole lot more. Thank you, everybody, for tuning in today to the kitchen table. We truly hope that you found this time valuable. We hope we've inspired you to take action, to lead and to spread leadership conversation. Until next time, be safe, be intentional, and here we are. Stay curious.