Ep. 53: Scott Booth, Assistant Chief - Vulnerability & Followership

Summary

Podcast Summary: Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table Episode: Ep. 53: Scott Booth, Assistant Chief - Vulnerability & Followership
Release Date: September 29, 2024
Host: Berlin Maza
Guest: Assistant Chief Scott Booth

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Introduction

In Episode 53 of Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table, host Berlin Maza engages in a profound discussion with Assistant Chief Scott Booth of Gig Harbor Fire Department. The episode delves into the intricate dynamics of vulnerability and followership within leadership roles, especially in high-stakes environments like firefighting. Through personal anecdotes, research insights, and practical advice, Booth elucidates how embracing vulnerability can enhance team cohesion and effectiveness.

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Scott Booth’s Background

Early Career and Move to the West Coast
Scott Booth began his firefighting journey as a volunteer firefighter in Denville, New Jersey, in 1990 during his senior year of high school. Transitioning to a full-time hospital-based paramedic in 1994, he then pursued a career as a firefighter in Howard County, Maryland, starting in 1996. In 1997, Booth relocated to Gig Harbor, Washington, driven by a series of serendipitous events he describes as "God moments" (04:00).

Personal Life and Hobbies
Booth is married to Amy, with whom he shares two children, Jordan and Sheldon, and two dogs. An avid cyclist, Booth engages in long-range cycling and maintains a passion for drumming, often playing in his basement. These personal interests highlight his balanced approach to life, blending rigorous professional responsibilities with fulfilling personal pursuits.

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Vulnerability in Leadership

Embracing “I Don't Know”
Booth opens the conversation by emphasizing the freedom in admitting uncertainty. He states, “There is such a tremendous freedom in simply saying, you know what, I don't know” (00:01). This admission is not about delving into personal traumas but about being honest in situations where he requires team input, fostering a collaborative environment.

Impact on Team Dynamics
Booth argues that recognizing the strength of a team over individual prowess is a form of vulnerability. By relying on team members’ expertise, leaders can enhance effectiveness and efficiency, thereby embodying vulnerability as a strategic strength rather than a weakness (00:01).

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The Story of Opportunity

Discovering Pierce County
Booth recounts a pivotal moment when he found a job opportunity in Pierce County, Washington, through an unexpected placement of a job announcement on green paper in Howard County, Maryland (05:28). This chance finding led to his immediate relocation, underscoring the role of prepared readiness in seizing opportunities.

Seizing the Moment
Booth highlights the importance of recognizing and acting upon opportunities: “The key is to recognize the signs when they come, those opportunities” (08:11). This proactive approach is crucial in leadership, where timing and decisive action can significantly impact career trajectories and organizational success.

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Executive Fire Officer (EFO) Program

Overview and Structure
Booth is nearing the completion of the Executive Fire Officer program (EFO 2.0) at the National Fire Academy. The program focuses on self-awareness, organizational analysis, community needs, and culminates in an in-depth study of the Battle of Gettysburg (16:48).

Purpose and Target Audience
The EFO program is designed not only for aspiring fire chiefs but for any leader seeking to deepen their understanding of self and organizational dynamics. Booth emphasizes its relevance for those who challenge cultural norms and seek innovative leadership strategies (20:06).

Learning Outcomes
Booth describes the program as transformative, enhancing emotional intelligence and fostering a comprehensive understanding of leadership within both organizational and community contexts (21:27).

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Emotional Intelligence and Human Skills

Intersection with Vulnerability
While Booth's research focused on vulnerability, he acknowledges its strong correlation with emotional intelligence. He notes, “Understanding and managing one's own emotions, the ability to empathize with others” as integral components of effective vulnerability (45:04).

Modern Leadership Paradigms
Booth observes a shift towards valuing human skills over traditional “hard” skills within fire departments. He advocates for continuous self-improvement and education through resources like Brene Brown and Simon Sinek to cultivate these essential traits (52:00).

Developing Emotional Intelligence
Booth stresses the importance of self-reflection and professional counseling in overcoming personal challenges to enhance emotional intelligence. His personal journey from dealing with an abusive father to developing resilience exemplifies this growth (46:15).

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The Role of Followership

Critical to Leadership
Booth posits that followership is as important, if not more so, than leadership itself. Effective followership builds credibility and sets a foundation for strong leadership (64:34).

Modeling Behavior
He underscores that leaders must exemplify good followership to foster similar behaviors within their teams. This mutual respect and adherence to organizational values reinforce a cohesive and trustworthy environment (64:34).

Impact on Team Dynamics
Booth illustrates that inconsistent or poor followership by leaders can undermine team morale and effectiveness. Conversely, demonstrating exceptional followership can enhance a leader’s credibility and the team’s overall performance (65:17).

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Challenges in Early Leadership

Earning Credibility
Reflecting on his early leadership roles, Booth admits that his initial challenge was transitioning from a "mouthy" follower to a trusted leader. He overcame this by actively supporting and challenging team members, thereby earning their trust and respect (66:44).

Balancing Authority and Empathy
Booth discusses the delicate balance leaders must maintain between asserting authority and showing empathy. By understanding and addressing team members’ individual needs and strengths, he fostered a supportive and effective team dynamic (69:58).

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Embracing Vulnerability

Strategies for New Firefighters and Leaders
Booth advises new firefighters and leaders to start small by seeking help or acknowledging gaps in their knowledge. For instance, admitting a lack of expertise in a particular area and leveraging team strengths can build trust and improve team performance (72:27).

Creating Safe Opportunities
He recommends leaders actively create situations that encourage shared struggle and vulnerability, thereby strengthening team bonds and enhancing collective problem-solving capabilities (37:47).

Modeling Vulnerability Effectively
For new officers, Booth suggests expressing vulnerability off the fireground to avoid misinterpretations during high-stakes operations. This approach reinforces that leaders value team expertise and promotes a culture of mutual support (77:05).

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Listener Challenge and Leadership Call to Action

Encouraging Vulnerability
Both host and guest advocate for a collective increase in vulnerability within leadership roles. Booth challenges listeners to identify and act upon opportunities to be more vulnerable, thereby fostering a culture of honesty and trust (85:56).

Imagining Cultural Transformation
They envision a fire service culture where even a 1% increase in vulnerability across all members can lead to significant improvements in teamwork, trust, and overall effectiveness (86:11).

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Future Guest Challenge and Closing Thoughts

Identifying Future Leaders
Booth nominates Nick Langlow, an upcoming Deputy Chief of Operations, as an ideal future guest to discuss leadership. He commends Langlow’s integrity and leadership qualities, anticipating valuable insights from his experiences (88:23).

Final Leadership Wisdom
Booth concludes with the poignant statement: “No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care” (90:16). This encapsulates the essence of his leadership philosophy, emphasizing empathy and genuine concern as foundational to effective leadership.

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Conclusion

Episode 53 of Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table offers a deep dive into the nuanced roles of vulnerability and followership in leadership. Assistant Chief Scott Booth shares his journey, research findings, and practical strategies, providing listeners with actionable insights to enhance their leadership skills. By modeling vulnerability and fostering strong followership, Booth illustrates how leaders can build more cohesive, trusting, and effective teams, ultimately driving positive organizational and community outcomes.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Scott Booth [00:01]:
  “There is such a tremendous freedom in simply saying, you know what, I don't know.”

• Scott Booth [08:11]:
  “The key is to recognize the signs when they come, those opportunities.”

• Scott Booth [37:47]:
  “As a leader, one should create opportunities for a team or crew to struggle together instead of relying on chance to offer those situations.”

• Scott Booth [43:28]:
  “You decide how to express that. But I want... to be a little more vulnerable than they're comfortable with.”

• Scott Booth [75:34]:
  “No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care.”

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Actionable Takeaways for Listeners

1. Recognize and Act on Opportunities: Stay prepared to seize unexpected opportunities, much like Booth did with the Pierce County position.
2. Embrace Vulnerability: Start small by admitting when you need help or don’t know something. This fosters trust and collaboration within your team.
3. Develop Emotional Intelligence: Engage in self-reflection and seek resources to enhance your emotional awareness and management.
4. Exemplify Good Followership: Demonstrate effective followership to build credibility and set a positive example for aspiring leaders.
5. Create Shared Struggles: Design training and team activities that challenge your team collectively, strengthening bonds and mutual support.
6. Model Empathy: Show genuine care for your team members by acknowledging their strengths and supporting their growth.
7. Continuous Learning: Utilize resources like books, podcasts, and training programs to continuously develop both hard and human skills.

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By internalizing these principles, listeners can elevate their leadership effectiveness, contributing to stronger, more resilient teams capable of overcoming the challenges inherent in high-pressure professions like firefighting.

Transcript

[Scott Booth]

There is such a tremendous freedom in simply saying, you know what, I don't know. Right. And I think that's where you can start with vulnerability. Right. It doesn't have to be bearing your soul. It doesn't have to be revealing your childhood trauma. It doesn't need to be anything other than, hey, guys, I'm not exactly sure how to solve this problem. What do you think? Right. It starts, it honestly starts there of being willing to say, I don't have all the answers. I really need your help. And when I think about this, I know that there are going to be some people listening to this that think this is a bunch of foo foo garbage. Right. I get it. But my guess is there's not a single listener who thinks that they are better by themselves than they are with their team. And so if you think about being better as a team than being better by yourself, that in and of itself is vulnerability. Right? Because you need to rely on the person to the right of you. You need to rely on the person to the left of you to be as successful as possible. Right? Not that you couldn't do it by yourself, but you'll be more effective, maybe more efficient. That's where vulnerability begins. Being rescued from a three story apartment building.

[Host]

The First Responder Liaison Network is proud to present to you the Kitchen Table podcast. Join us as we explore leadership from perspectives around the globe. From firefighters to fire Chiefs, civilians to CEOs, our conversations have one simple goal. Build more leaders. Good afternoon and welcome everybody to the Kitchen Table. The Kitchen Table is brought to you by the First Responder Liaison Network. The network is organized for the development, implementation and ongoing support of mentorship and professional development programs, inspiring our youth and young adults to mature into engaged civic leaders and resilient community sentinels. Music and graphics are brought to you by Kai Elephant Productions. In our leadership conversation today, we are talking yet again about vulnerability and the strength it can have in effective leadership. We're also going to talk about the importance of shared struggle and how it leads to building trust and building strong teams. We're also talking how followership can sometimes be more important than leadership. What would the fire service look like if as individuals, as teams, as crews and as organizations, we're all just a little bit more vulnerable when leading. Our guest today started as a volunteer firefighter in his hometown of New Jersey in 1990 during his senior year of high school. He became a full time hospital based paramedic in 1994 and his first career job as a firefighter in 1996. In Howard County, Maryland. He then jumped coast to Gig Harbor, Washington, in 1997. He served as a firefighter, paramedic, lieutenant, battalion chief, and currently serves as the assistant chief of health and safety. Our guest spent nine years as union president and founded the department's peer support team. He has a bachelor's degree in public safety and emergency management from Grand Canyon University and is currently finishing up the executive fire officer program at the national fire Academy. Today I welcome assistant chief Scott Booth to the kitchen table. Good afternoon, chief. How are you today?

[Scott Booth]

I'm fantastic, thank you.

[Host]

A member of the wolfpack, a passionate and dedicated group of firefighters that have appeared on the kitchen table several times. And I will start with this. I didn't realize that you started in the east coast. What brought you to the West coast back 20 some years ago?

[Scott Booth]

Yeah. I'll tell you what. It's a super long story. I actually could take up half of our time together today if I were to. If I were to actually tell it. But the short version is a series of God moments brought me out here. I was newly divorced, and I was pretty unhappy being an east Coaster. I always say that it's a great place to be from. I'm glad I grew up there. I'm glad I cut my teeth as a paramedic there, But I'm also glad that I no longer live there. So.

[Host]

Interesting.

[Scott Booth]

Yeah. So, yeah, honestly, it's a crazy long story, but basically how Pierce county came on the. On the radar when I was. I was going somewhere. Yeah. Howard county was a phenomenal place to be a firefighter, but at the time, it wasn't the best place to be a paramedic. Kind of antiquated scope of practice. I worked with amazing people, um, and some of those people actually helped me move on. But I needed to go somewhere, and Pierce county came in, in a. In a pretty surprising way and jumped into the process. The next thing you know, I'm loading a truck and starting to drive.

[Host]

Wow.

[Scott Booth]

And. And showed up in. In Washington six days later, and. And I've never looked back.

[Host]

Wow. So if I may ask, how is it that Pierce County. I'm just intrigued about. Because, I mean, King county, obviously you're in Pierce county, the county over. I'm intrigued on how Pierce county came to the top of the list. How did you find them or how did they find you?

[Scott Booth]

All right, you're going to make me tell at least part of the story, and that's fine. So in. In Maryland, the station that I was. I was assigned to full Time was in Clarksville. Howard county is a, is a large combination fire department. And at this particular house, the volunteers staffed the station on Sundays. That was the only time you saw a volunteer there. You didn't routinely run calls together. They didn't come do ride alongs. But the one position that they didn't provide was a paramedic. And so on Sundays, the paramedic would stay behind and everyone else would rove somewhere else in the, in the county. And I was on probation at the time, and my mso, the shift level paramedic supervisor decided I can't leave a probationary guy out there without any, without any supervisors, right? So on this particular Sunday, I roved into the center of the, of the county, which is the city of Columbia. And we had. It was a triple house. It was a truck engine and a medic. And so I rove in and as we're heading to the morning, the morning meeting, I notice a green piece of paper on the, on the cork board in the hallway and stop and look at it briefly. Pierce County Medic 1 paramedic test. I'll get back to the green paper in a minute. So I go into the meeting, we go do our pt. After pt, we get changed, I wander by again, I take another look at it, I take it down, take a photocopy of it, put it back up. By the time I went home the following morning, I just took it with me. And what is interesting is that the fact that it was on green paper meant that it was an original copy and original mailing. It wasn't something that someone got emailed and they just printed. No one from Pierce County, Washington. And this was a five agency test. That's why it was kind of more broadly shared. So no one from Pierce county had ever heard of Howard county, and no one from Howard county had ever heard of Pierce County.

[Host]

Right.

[Scott Booth]

Yet this original copy of this job announcement shows up in a firehouse that I rarely work out.

[Host]

Huh.

[Scott Booth]

And there it is. First. That is the first of a series of God moments that brought me here.

[Host]

100%. No, I mean, do. I mean, I. You had to have looked into it at some point to find out how it ended up there, right? Somebody put it there. Right.

[Scott Booth]

I asked the person that ran the process and she said, I have no idea how it ended there.

[Host]

Wow, that is interesting. Talk about, you know, and we talk about that a lot, like your opportunity, you know, and it's being, it's there. Not sometimes not even knowing how or why, but sometimes seeing a sign and Then taking advantage. I mean, talk about.

[Scott Booth]

Exactly.

[Host]

Wow.

[Scott Booth]

Yeah. And that's the key, right? That, that's the key not to get all, all faith here, but the key is to recognize.

[Host]

Yes.

[Scott Booth]

The signs when they come, those opportunities. Right. To recognize them. And this is true in a lot of ways. Right? Not just, not just faith or, or you know, professionally or whatever, but to recognize the opportunity and then having the courage to do something about it. Right. Instead of letting that opportunity pass you by.

[Host]

Yes, absolutely. And we'll, I'm sure we'll talk a lot about that. There's something I heard recently. Luck is simply preparation, meeting opportunity. And you can look at luck as just simply, oh, you know, they just have, that person just has good luck. Or you can be someone that is staying prepared, always prepared, and jumps on an opportunity when it's there. And there's the so called luck. But I love how you said that courage too. There's a courage piece to step up and say, you know what, let's go type of a deal. That's awesome. That's quite the story. And I didn't know that, so thank you for sharing. So today's topic we actually have discussed a couple times by a few guests. We've had Deputy Chief Aaron Tyrant out of Puget Sound early, early on in the podcast talked about vulnerable leadership. We actually had Battalion Chief Deana Ali a few weeks ago. She actually talked about modeling vulnerability. We've only had guests that talked about Brene Brown, referenced Brene Brown multiple times on this show from multiple guests. You know, we've talked about, you know, power, vulnerability, being vulnerable, how important it is. So I'm just going to throw it out there before we start vulnerability today in 2024. Right. A necessary quality in being an effective leader. Just throwing it out there. So I, I, I love how, where we're going to go to in today's conversation, but before we get there, would you mind sharing a little bit about who Scott Booth is? I know you talked a little bit about way how you came up to that west coast, but share a little bit about maybe your upbringing, family life and hobbies and then we'll just jump into leadership.

[Scott Booth]

Yeah, perfect. I think my upbringing might have a lot to do with why I, I personally am very comfortable in vulnerability. So grew up in New Jersey and my dad, my father was, was abusive as I remember it, and he left when I was nine years old. The reality is that I was raised by my mother and my grandmother and maybe being raised by women has, has kind of taught me to Be more in touch with emotions. I certainly didn't have. I mean, I didn't have. I didn't have the idyllic childhood, but I certainly didn't struggle. Like. Like a lot of folks, I was. I was certainly on the privileged side of the fence if I had to drop myself in one place or the other. So senior year of high school. Kind of funny. The reason I. I initially got interested in the. In the volunteer fire department in my town in Denville, New Jersey, was honestly what took me to this place was not at all what I found when I finally kind of got here. But. So I was big in theater. That was my thing. I didn't. I tried doing sports. I don't know if I was clumsy or if I just wasn't athletically inclined, but so I did theater. And in Jersey, you may or may not know this, but there's diners everywhere. Right. And so a West coast thing. West coast doesn't have diners, but I guess Denny's is the closest thing to a diner. But. But diners are. They're just part of that New England east coast just culture. Right. So anyway, after a performance, we go to. We go to a diner. That's just kind of the way it went. And we were in this diner one night and one of the guys, he was a volunteer firefighter, and so their pager went off and they jumped up and he. And he told his sister who was there as well, you know, she's. She's like, be safe. And he ran out. And I thought, oh, man, I want to do that. That was it. That's what first got me interested, is how cool it looked.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

So anyway, you know, small town show up. They gave me a blue light for my car and a helmet and a pair of long boots and a long coat and said, if this thing beeps, drive to the firehouse as fast as you can and don't get killed. And that was it.

[Host]

Wow.

[Scott Booth]

That was the extent of my onboarding.

[Host]

There you go. Yes.

[Scott Booth]

And that was 1990. And so, okay, over the course of things, I had a fantastic EMS Captain, Ed Wisniewski was his name. He was a full time paramedic at a local hospital. And then a part, you know, he volunteered on the side and he actually owned a. I think he was either a plumber or an electrician, I can't remember which, but he had a. He had a company vehicle. Anyway, I initially went to college for law enforcement, promptly failed out of all those classes, but was volunteering in the local town spring Garden Township, Pennsylvania. And it was a combination department. They had two drivers and one officer was the entire career for the shift in two stations. And so really the volunteers just did everything.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

And so immersed myself in there, became a resident. So anyway, flunk out of college, head back to New Jersey and got myself into the paramedic program. You know, two short years later I was a certified paramedic working in four different places, just trying to make a living and seeing a ton of critical patients. Just high volume urban ems. Just loved every minute of it. The job in Maryland telling way too much of the story. The job in Maryland was another one of those God moments. I just sent my resume to every county in Maryland that had paramedics. That was it. And then six months later someone called me and said, you want to take a test? I was like, sure, yeah. Went down, took a test and they said, hey, you want a job? I said, sure, yeah. There you go.

[Host]

Hey, opportunity again. Taking advantage.

[Scott Booth]

It was, it was, it was crazy. Anyway, so we already know about getting frustrated with, with my experience in Maryland. Jumping coasts nowadays. A 27 year veteran in this organization. It's changed considerably since the day I got here. I was, I was hired on to open a third station with just an ambulance. Nowadays we have five station staff with five engines, three medics. We still don't have a truck. We didn't have a battalion chief at the time. Now we have a battalion chief. It's just, it's remarkable, you know, it was a large volunteer department with a small career, complementary and nowadays our only volunteers are the chaplains that I have the privilege of working with and overseeing. I have a beautiful wife, her name is Amy. We have been married for 23 or 24 years. We have two kids between the two of us, Jordan and Sheldon. And we have two dogs. We're empty nesters now. So we have two dogs that we treat like little human beings and life is really good.

[Host]

That's good.

[Scott Booth]

Hobbies. I'm an avid cyclist. I, I ride my. I. When I was on shift. I was a, I was a year round bike commuter, did some cyclocross racing, do a little gravel. I mostly stay on the road. Um, but that's really kind of one of my big passions. And, and I still play drums sort of when I was a kid and I've been kind of on and off the drums over the years. Used to play in a bunch of different churches, but now I just play, play in my basement.

[Host]

Awesome hobbies. Yeah. Something to do some now where do you live? Are you in. Are you in Pierce County? I live in.

[Scott Booth]

Yeah, I live in University Place.

[Host]

Okay.

[Scott Booth]

So just the other side of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge. I don't know why I picked up. When I first moved here, you know, I was flown out to kind of figure out where you're going to live, get your uniform fitting, that kind of thing. And. And I just picked a. Picked a apartment complex in. Up There you go. And. And I've stayed there ever since.

[Host]

Oh, wow.

[Scott Booth]

So.

[Host]

Right.

[Scott Booth]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host]

Wow. I was in your neck of the woods just a week ago. We had the. Actually, a week ago today was the Lionheart Golf Tournament, the one that Renton Firefighters. And I was invited last minute over to play over there. And I know Chief Doan obviously plays at Canterwood Golf and Country Club, and that's where we were. I thought. I thought of all you guys because we could hear, you know, the trucks go out. It was Gig harbor fire. Like, oh, yeah, there's those guys. And I, you know, meet with Scott Booth next week. And so it just reminded me because I don't go. I don't go to that side very often usually. Actually, when I do go over there, it's probably for some kind of golf because you guys have great golf down there in the South. Love golf down there. So anyways, yeah. So. Well, thank you for sharing. It's an amazing story, and I'm honored and privileged to have you on the show today, and I'm very excited to talk about the topic today. So vulnerability and effective leadership. That is the topic that you have your EFO paper revolved around. But before we get into that, let's talk about the efo. So, at the National Fire Academy, how far are you into the efo? And tell us about your experience there, and then we'll get right into vulnerability and all that.

[Scott Booth]

I got. I think I got accepted in 2021. So just coming out of COVID and they were in the process of overhauling the program.

[Host]

That's right.

[Scott Booth]

Yeah. I'm in. I'm in. I'm in. What's considered EFO 2.0.

[Host]

Okay.

[Scott Booth]

Yeah. So the prior Fire chief, John Burgess, who's now one of our chaplains, actually, he's the one that endorsed me. I was. I was blessed to. To compete against some of the best in the country and got in on my first ever application. And so it's been an. It's been a really, really cool process. I'm no more than a month away from being done, actually. I fly out. Yeah. Thank you. I fly out to Maryland on the 12th of October for my last class, and. And then I'll be done. It almost. I can't believe it happened as quick as it did. Even though I have some classmates that I was in class with who are already done. They just put the hammer down. Yeah, it's been an amazing experience. Again, I don't have. I don't have any experience with what EFO 1.1.0 look like.

[Host]

Sure.

[Scott Booth]

Chief Doan is an EFO grad. I know several EFO grads, and I'll just speak for what EFO 2.0 is. Yes, EFO 2.0 is all about getting you more aware of what you think, how you think and why you think it. And so it really challenges you to. To confront your biases, to try to understand why you think certain things. It challenges you to look at your organization from a more objective perspective instead of kind of falling into the subjectivity that we're all prone to. Right. And then it really challenges you to look at your community and to try to really understand what your community's needs are. And so those are the first three classes. It's a study of self organization and community. And then you sit down and you write your paper, which we'll get into here today. And then we finish. The majority of what we do when we go back for the last class is a study of Gettysburg. And we dig deep. We go out through the battlefields with a professional guide, and we talk about some of the key leaders through the Battle of Gettysburg. And I'm getting really excited for it. Research, I do. Yeah, it's been one of those things. I think this. This happened kind of organically. I know there have been instructors in the past who have been kind of Gettysburg buffs, and it was always kind of like a side thing that they do over the long weekend. But it was never something that was required, and now it's a requirement to graduate. And I think it's. I think it's an excellent addition to the, to the curriculum is to kind of take a look at it from one more perspective that a lot of people wouldn't take the time to think about. I've never been a history buff. I hated history when I was in high school. But now that I'm older, like a lot of things, right. You begin to get new appreciation for things and, and history is one of them. And I've been fascinated by some of the things I've learned about the Battle of Gettysburg in this. In the last couple weeks, as I've been prepping, so. Yeah, it's right around the corner.

[Host]

Yeah. Well, congratulations. That's quite the accomplishment. And. Well, I mean it. Talk about inspiring for others to learn about. Hear about a question that I have briefly is, who is the EFO for? Who is the target audience? I kind of know the answer to that question, but I kind of want your insight. Who's it for?

[Scott Booth]

Yeah. So the, the. When the very first day, I think it was the very first day of the first class when we showed up, the instructor said, if you're here, it should be because you want to be the fire chief someday. And, and while, and while I appreciate that and clearly that's a, that's a definitely part of it, I don't necessarily think that you have to be the fire chief to take something meaningful away from efo. I think EFO is for any lead, it's definitely for leaders. But for any leader who's interested in maybe exploring more about themselves, about think. If you got anybody in your organization who's like an outside of the box thinker, this is probably for them because they're challenging the cultural norms they are looking to, for innovative ways to do things they are not happy with. Well, we just do it that way because we've always done it that way.

[Host]

Yes.

[Scott Booth]

Anyone who, who, who isn't, who doesn't fall into that mob, that mold, I think is the right fit.

[Host]

Yes.

[Scott Booth]

Now, it is an extremely competitive process. Absolutely. I think the last they opened applications earlier this year, the plan was it was for the application period to be open for 60 days. And I think they had their max number of applicants in like 16. So it's super competitive. There's a lot of folks that are interested in being involved. But I don't want to discourage anyone either because I was. My, my EFO classmates are a broad swath from the fire service.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

And. And I think that's what makes us. Right. So unique and so, so, so powerful is because we are so diverse. Yeah.

[Host]

Well, that's kind of reason I asked that question is this being a leadership podcast. And I know not all of our listeners are obviously aspiring to be fire chiefs. Right. Wrong or indifferent. That's okay. But what I, I believe in my personal leadership is being a good leader. Doesn't have. I mean, we've heard this. It sounds very cliche. It's not for a certain individual, it's not for a rank, it's not for a tenure. Leadership is. There's qualities attached to it that I believe anyone and everyone, especially someone in the public service can, can attach onto to better themselves to then be able to provide better for others. So my point being is, are there, are there qualities, are there learnings that individuals can take away from an EFO program that aren't necessarily aspiring fire chiefs? Yeah, absolutely. And so would, I guess the question I have, Would, would candidates be denied, if you will, if on an application it was an exploration piece, for example, like they applied to get the EFO program and was not aspiring to be, say, a fire chief, but was more of wanting to better themselves, to become a very effective leader at whatever rank that may be. Is that, would that be a deterrent of an applicant?

[Scott Booth]

Yeah, I don't, I don't know that anyone asks you, you know, there's like, you know, a box check, you know, do you aspire to be the fire chief?

[Host]

Right.

[Scott Booth]

I don't think, I don't. I don't remember that being part of the education process. But I've been in class with company officers, battalion officers. When I started the program, when I applied, I was a lieutenant. When I got accepted, I was a battalion chief. And while I was at class, I got promoted to assistant chief. The reality is that, that, you know, if you're a, if you're a tailboard firefighter, probably aren't going to be competitive against, you know, the, the group. But if you are in a position of leadership and you have, you know, aspirations to be more effective, yes, I would think that that alone wouldn't, you know, disqualify.

[Host]

Disqualify you. And I mentioned that simply for this, those listeners out there, I mean, we talk leadership. Here's another opportunity and to encourage you all to consider maybe the EFO program. I understand that there's. Did they revamp the Managing fire Officer program or is that still in its 1.0?

[Scott Booth]

Yeah, I believe I just have. I have a guy, got a guy in my organization that just finished, oh, he just graduated and Lieutenant Robert Wotherspoon. And I want to say that as he was finishing, they're in the process of revamping, revamping it. So I don't have a good finger on the pulse of exactly when that's supposed to reopen and launch in the version 2.0. But I do know that after their experience over the last several years, they are looking to make some changes.

[Host]

There you go. For those listeners out there, there's two awesome opportunities to consider to, to, to up your leadership arsenal, if you will, something to look into for whether it be now or something in your future. Aspirations, the EFO program and the Managing Fire Officer program at the National Fire Academy. So why don't we just jump into this? So your topic of choice for your EFO paper was Vulnerability and Effective Leadership. How. How did that become your topic of choice to write about? I mean, there's obviously dozens and dozens of topics you could have picked geared toward whatever, but that was your topic. Why is that?

[Scott Booth]

Yeah, thank you for asking that. I have been thinking about how I kind of wandered into this. I would say that I've always had a propensity toward vulnerability, just leaning into that. But again, like I, like, I kind of suggested early on, raised by women, you know, in theater. In theater, you need to portray a lot of emotions, get very comfortable with emotion. It was just, it was just the way I chose to lead. And, and I think back to one of my favorite teams was a crew that I, that I was able to lead. And, and we just, it. We transcended that, that typical crew dynamic. You know, we genuinely loved and cared for each other. And so anyway, I walk away from that experience with that kind of in the back of my head, like, man, if I'm going to write something, I feel like I should do this. So there's a story behind this. So on, on day, I think it was the afternoon of day one of the first EFO class. They. We did an exercise as a group and it was kind of one of those icebreakers. And so we were each given a large sheet of paper. We made a four quadrant out of it, and we were supposed to draw pictures. And the first picture was your childhood years. The second picture was your teen years. The third picture was like your professional life. And the fourth picture is supposed to be what you view as your retirement. And so everyone takes 20 minutes and everyone's drawing their pictures. And, and, and so I'm, I'm sitting there, I don't know any of these people, right? I mean, I might have, I might have spoken to the people that were sitting at my table, but I don't know anyone in this room yet. I don't. I've never met the instructors before and I did what I would do in this situation like this, and I just led with vulnerability. And so for my, from my childhood, it was a face crying. For my teen, it was the, the two masks of theater. I don't know if you're familiar with that thing, the smiling face and the crying and. Okay, yeah, okay. For my professional, I don't remember what I wrote. And for retirement, it was like a bike and sunny or whatever. And so I went first for no other reason than I was sitting at the. At the right front corner of the room, and I stood up and I explained my thing. And I had numerous people come to me afterwards saying, holy crap. Like, as soon as you did that, I was like, oh, it's going to be like this. Okay. And so it took us, you know, an hour or more to get through the class. And everyone. Everyone. Not everyone. Most people were really open and a little raw with the way they explained their pictures. And several people came to me afterward and said, because you were vulnerable, I chose to be vulnerable, too.

[Host]

Wow.

[Scott Booth]

Right. So that was the first kind of like, hey. And then I met with one of the. Because you start thinking about your capstone right away, you don't actually get it approved for quite a while, but you need to be thinking about it and researching it from the very beginning. And one of the. One of the instructors said, I kind of feel like you should do something about vulnerability. And I was like, okay, wow. All right.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

And so it took a little time for me to. For me to kind of develop a true research. Valid hypothesis, if you will. It's not a hypothesis in qualitative research, but same kind of thing. Right. It took me a little while to kind of. Kind of knock the edges off it and make it something that I thought was valid for my capstone. But it really started. It's. It started there. It started before there, but it really started in that room where I've led with vulnerability, because that's just what felt right.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

And. And I saw the impact it had.

[Host]

Wow. I mean, talk about, like. Because this is one thing that I've always thought, like, you can't. So you mentioned, like, you led, right.

[Scott Booth]

You.

[Host]

You modeled vulnerability, being the first one in the room. Talk about setting the tone, you know, and people coming up to you and saying, wow, like, through your presentation, if you will. It allowed me to want to be more vulnerable. I mean, I can only. And this is something you can't quantify. Right. It's like things that you. That's. That's the tough part about being proactive is you can't quantify the. The. The alternative. So I only can imagine how not vulnerable some. Some would have been had you not been the first one to go. And so I talk about how powerful that that was, setting the tone for yourself, your class, the paper that you wrote. And I think that's just that that's so key. And we talked about model. In fact, Dina Ali was On the show, our previous guest talked about exactly what you're saying, just modeling vulnerability. So I guess a question that I have is how do you. How does one. Right. So you're an assistant chief. You've got decades of experience in the fire service. How does one get to the point where you said, you know what, I'll go first, and I am going to model vulnerability because I think it's important to me. Like, let's. And correct me if I'm wrong, Chief, if this 20 years ago, maybe you wouldn't have had that. That courage, if you will, to be able to do so. How does one build themselves up so they're not waiting, we'll say, 30 years into their career and say, all right, now I'm in the seat I'm in. I've got 30 years in. And now I'm going to start modeling vulnerability. Because I write, we want our people to be able to be vulnerable to the entirety of their careers. So I know it's kind of a question that might have, you know, way many answers, but, you know, going with vulnerability, how do we encourage people that vulnerability is. Okay, that's a.

[Scott Booth]

That's a great question. I'll just focus on my career. Thinking back over my time as a professional, when I think about how difficult it is to try to be always right, always perfect, I'm the guy that's here to save things. I don't need help. Right. You think about all those negative influences that actually Dina also talked about really challenges our behavioral health. There is such a tremendous freedom in simply saying, you know what? I don't know. Right. And I think that's where you can start with vulnerability. Right. It doesn't have to be bearing your soul. It doesn't have to be revealing your childhood trauma. It doesn't need to be anything other than, hey, guys, I'm not exactly sure how to solve this problem. What do you think? Right. It starts. It honestly starts there of being willing to say, I don't have all the answers. I really need your help. And when I think about this, I know that there are going to be some people listening to this that think this is a bunch of foo foo garbage. Right. I get it. But my guess is there's not a single listener who thinks that they are better by themselves than they are with their team. And so if you think about being better as a team than being better by yourself, then that in and of itself is vulnerability. Right. Because you need to rely on the person to the right of you. You need to rely on the person to the left of you to be as successful as possible. Right. Not that you couldn't do it by yourself, but you'll be more effective, maybe more efficient. That's where vulnerability begins. And for a lot of folks listening to this, like, it's harder now for me. I work in an office environment. I have a team. Right. But we're not running calls. It's harder for me and harder. I show a different kind of vulnerability to the people I lead now than the people that I was leading when we were on an engine company together. Right. Because the context is different. Because the stakes are different.

[Host]

Yes.

[Scott Booth]

Because the work product that we're. That we're spending time in is different.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

So maybe my vulnerability now is more personal and. And making the people I'm working with feel valued and important. The reality is that, you know, I know they already know this, but they're way smarter than me. They're the ones that make. That make everything happen. I'm just the one that is able to help make sure that they're. They can be successful.

[Host]

Yes, Agreed.

[Scott Booth]

Right. So. But when you're on a. When you're on a fire crew, man, the team is what wins the day.

[Host]

Yes.

[Scott Booth]

And everyone has a role, for sure, but any company officer who doesn't think that those firefighters are the ones that. That make the magic might be fooling themselves.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

They might want to rethink their perspective. And the same is true for the battalion chief.

[Host]

Yep.

[Scott Booth]

Sitting in the buggy. Right. If you think for a second that everyone's waiting for you to tell them what to do, you're. You're fooling yourself.

[Host]

Yeah, Totally agree. I absolutely agree. What's. What's shared struggle. I think you wrote that, you talked about that in your paper, right?

[Scott Booth]

Yeah. One of my research participants brought it up, and it was a theme. I don't remember which. Like, I did. I managed to get all my interviews in a single week, which was. I couldn't believe how it fell together. But one of my research participants brought that up first, and then it became a theme that. That really shined out in all of my interviews. Not all. In many of my interviews. And. And it was, you know, some of the examples were on the drill ground, you know, doing a. Doing a really hard evolution together. Some of it was like solving a complex problem. Maybe there's a challenging. There's a challenging thing. We recently went through a schedule change, and maybe it was, you know, the work of researching that and then presenting it not only to the membership, but Then administration to get them to, you know, to buy in, to do it on a trial or whatever the case may be. The theme was that those shared struggles, those opportunities to really work hard together. And I think there's an element of vulnerability and working hard together because inherently, when you work really, really hard, there's always an element of weakness that shines through. Right. Like, I've got a huge aerobic engine, but I'm not the strongest guy.

[Host]

Sure.

[Scott Booth]

Right. And so if I'm working side by side with another firefighter, it's very likely that. That they are stronger than me, but I can go. I can go all day.

[Host]

Exactly.

[Scott Booth]

Right.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

And so. And so there's that. There's that, you know, show of strength and weakness, and it's because the two of us are together that we can be successful.

[Host]

Absolutely.

[Scott Booth]

Is because we complement each other.

[Host]

Yes. That's good.

[Scott Booth]

So that. That shared struggle was. Was something that. That came out of the research that I wasn't searching for, that just happened organically. None of my research questions kind of specifically teased that. That, that key thing out, but it was one that. That several of the participants shared, is that that was a. A quick way to build trust in a team is to. Is to struggle together.

[Host]

To struggle together.

[Scott Booth]

Yeah. And the reason why I really keyed into that is because organizationally, Gig harbor, we. We serve a fantastic community. But if you're looking to fight fire every day, this is not the place you want to come work. On average, we fight a fire a month. Total. Not per shift. Per station. Right, total. And so, you know, whenever you come out of a fire, everyone's, you know, high five in and spiking the ball, and we couldn't. We couldn't feel more accomplished and satisfied in the work we do. But an organization like this, if you're waiting for that, you're going to be pretty unhappy. And so I really think that's a call that's called action of the company officers or the senior firefighters or even the junior fighters firefighters. To find opportunities to create shared struggle.

[Host]

Yes.

[Scott Booth]

And don't just wait for it to happen, because then you're missing so many opportunities. If you're just sitting back, like, as soon as we get that big fire, then we can. Then we can struggle together.

[Host]

No, and. And I love that because you. I wrote. I actually wrote it down. Right here. Is that you wrote, as a leader, one should create opportunities for a team or a crew to struggle together instead of relying on those, you know, on those on. On. On chance to offer those Situations. So that's. I think that's one thing that is kind of an action item in and of itself is like, when we're out doing our drills, when we're out prepping for a training session, are we creating opportunities to just go train where it's going to be a high success rate? Which there's a time and place for that as well. Right. We don't need every drill to kick everyone's ass just to feel like they're a failure, although there's opportunities for learning in those environments as well. But I think that's one thing that we can inject as leaders. Like what you said is, are we creating a training, a drill, a session, whatever it may be, where there's an opportunity for us to struggle with that drill together, to figure it out together, to know that failure is okay. But we're going to go through this together as a crew because we're going to be able to become better at the end of it. And then we show our vulnerabilities within those drills together. And I think that's how we can grow together. So I just love that piece. And that was a quote straight, I believe, from your paper. Right. As a leader, one should create opportunities for a team or crew to struggle together instead of relying on chance to offer those situations. So the next question I have about vulnerability is how do you know when. As a leader, for example, how does one know when vulnerability has worked or not worked? For example, like, how do you measure that versus, you know, let's just say some would view that vulnerability can be a weakness, right?

[Scott Booth]

Totally.

[Host]

How would one know that expressing vulnerability has worked to then better the team dynamic or better the environment?

[Scott Booth]

Yeah, that's a really interesting informed question based on my paper. This is a qualitative research study, right. So it's 100% subjective. You try to provide some objectivity with consistent questioning, but at the end of the day, it is subjective. I think about that team that I was part of, that I had the pleasure of leading, and what I would say, how I knew that we had accomplished something that I hadn't experienced before and I have experienced it since, but not the same way, if that makes sense, is we genuinely loved each other. And it was evident in everything we did. It was evident in the way that we supported each other doing the routine, mundane stuff around the station. It was evident in the way that we cared for each other, both on and off duty. It was evident in the interest that we took in each other. I'll just use the one Example, I am not someone who fishes. I don't care for fishing. I've. I don't know, maybe it's the add.

[Host]

I don't fish either.

[Scott Booth]

The idea of. The idea of sitting there and just doing nothing, just. I can't. I can't do it. Right. So. But there was a guy on my crew, Greg Hoshin, he's now. He's now a lieutenant. And. And Greg lives to fish. It was just. It was one of the most important things in his life. And so when I was at work and when I was sitting there with Greg, fishing was the most important thing to me. Not because I had any interest in it, because it mattered to him.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

Right. And so we would talk about fishing. Conversely, I'm a huge cycling nut. And so those guys would wake up in the morning and they'd watch bicycle racing with me when they could have cared less.

[Host]

Yes.

[Scott Booth]

About some guys running around in spandex on bikes. Like, who even cares about this? But they would legitimately, with interest, sit there and watch for the movie. Because it mattered to me. And that may be one of the ways. And again, you won't know that unless you know each other, you know very, very well. But it was that genuine care and affection for each other. That's how I knew that we were effective as a team. That's how I knew that. That being vulnerable and real with each other, it. It did something.

[Host]

Absolutely. And what I was going to say, because what I heard from that is, I. I suppose one thing, obviously subjective as well, that, you know, that vulnerability has worked or it's effective, is the relationships that are built at the end of the day. Right. Like if you are. The way that you're leading each other, the way you're leading a crew, the way you're working and interacting with each other, and you know that you're being vulnerable and the way that you act, the way that you lead, the, you know, the way that you operate, is that the relationships built are strong versus not.

[Scott Booth]

Yeah.

[Host]

And I think there you go.

[Scott Booth]

You said it better than me.

[Host]

Well, no, no, no. I said it because of what you said and it got it out of me. But I think that's. That's one thing that I think we can all agree with. I think all listeners here as well, is. Is when we are vulnerable, basically what we're doing is we're being our true selves. Right. Because if you're not being vulnerable, you're holding back. How much of a. How strong of a relationship can you have with somebody? A Crew member or other, if you're not being your true self. And I think, you know, with how strong a relationship one has with their crew is strongly based upon how vulnerable you can be.

[Scott Booth]

And hearing your observation, I have maybe it got me to think of something else. Maybe the way that you gauge the effectiveness of your vulnerability is how willing your team is to be vulnerable with you.

[Host]

Agreed.

[Scott Booth]

Right. And so you know, that. That's another observation out of the, out of the paper, out of the interviews, was that not only does vulnerable vulnerability build trust and prove psychological safety and all those things. Right. But several members said that, you know, when I'm vulnerable, it tells you that it's okay if you're vulnerable. Absolutely. Right. And so you're modeling the type of behavior that you. That you want the people you're working with to also, you know, express. Absolutely.

[Host]

And what environment would we have or want or be working in if nobody was vulnerable? Right. I mean, to be as cliche as that sounds, but I mean, I think we would all agree that vulnerability is a necessity. The work that we do. Yeah. If the leader is not going to model it themselves, can we really expect others to bring their true selves to the table to work every day? And I think the answer to that is no. So what I hear from a lot of this as well, Chief, and we've talked about this in a previous episode when the Wolf Pack was on, but we talked a little bit about emotional intelligence. So I think there's, there's a lot of emotional intelligence in here. When we're talking about vulnerability. Right. We're talking about self awareness. Awareness as well. We're talking about understanding how one. How would you best say it? How one interacts with others. But how much of this paper was influenced or not influenced by emotional intelligence? Was that part of your study? Was it part of your research? Because I hear a lot of emotional intelligence in this when we're talking about being vulnerable. Specifically in the paper that you wrote, was it honestly.

[Scott Booth]

No, it was not. And you're not wrong. It does feel, yes, very in line. Understanding and managing one's own emotions, the ability to empathize with others. And then there's the five key elements of emotional intelligence you already mentioned. One, self awareness, but there's also self regulation, motivation, basically your own personal. Why, the ability to be empathetic and then developed highly developed social skills. And so, yeah, that's all very much in line with, I think, what needs to be in place if you're going to effectively model vulnerability. For sure, you had asked me a question in the previous podcast with the Wolfpack. You asked how does one develop emotional intelligence? That you start by digging into yourself. Right. And, and that is, that is largely what the EFO program has, has challenged me and my classmates with, is better understanding ourselves. Right.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

And so whether it's, I've come in, in developing my organization's peer support program which, whether it's supposed to or it just happened this way, I've done a lot of behavioral health programming trying to improve, improve the members their own awareness to, to be more resilient mentally. I've come to the conclusion and I've had some, I've had some legitimate psychologists agree with me. So I don't think it's, it's, it's half baked that a lot of us, they get into this profession, we come here because we're trying to correct a wrong. And I think a lot of us have experienced challenges, traumas, whatever in our lives. And, and I think that if you're going to become an emotionally intelligent person, let alone leader, you really need to start by digging deep and, and, and doing the hard work. I think it's a shame when anyone who's in their adult years, who's living a life that is filled with challenges, many self imposed, that they don't take the time to try to dig into those things that they don't want to talk about. Right. I already talked about my, my abusive father. I was also abused by the next father figure that came into my life. I've had my share of things and I can talk about them now because of the work that I've done in counseling in better understanding kind of what those created the self destructive behavior patterns that I was living my life in, living my life through. And that is how you get to being someone who is more self aware, who's able to regulate their emotions. Right. I was someone that was. Rage was a term that was often used when people talked about me and that was because of what I'd experienced and not having processed it and not having effective ways to deal with it. That's what that was a byproduct of for sure. I can say that with crystal clarity now that I'm in my early 50s. I think that's, that's how you become an emotionally intelligent person leader and that's how you get closer and closer to being comfortable with being vulnerable.

[Host]

Absolutely. And you, I think we talked about this. You mentioned the podcast that we did earlier on is. I think I asked you this question and they talked about emotional intelligence to an extent in the EFO program. Right. When, you know, going back 10 years, 20 years, we weren't talking about emotional intelligence. Right. We weren't talking about self awareness, we weren't talking about self regulation. We were talking about hard skills with a job, this and that. So I love the fact that, you know that this is a topic that's being discussed at that level. But do you believe that emotional intelligence, vulnerability, things that we've talked about, is that gonna start becoming mainstream earlier in development of firefighters and company officers in the career, or are we still needing to wait to get into an EFO program or going to the National Fire Academy to really bridge these? What we would say, I think most of us would say are necessary characteristics and leaders.

[Scott Booth]

Yeah, absolutely. I, I think we're not going to hear less of it. And I think we're, I think we're already hearing. I, I've, I have it written down here. And, and you didn't, you didn't say it, so I didn't get a chance to correct you. But I don't love the term soft skills.

[Host]

Sure.

[Scott Booth]

Because when you compare soft and hard, it's kind of like strong and weak point. And I don't like that. I prefer human skills. And so I think we're already being more aware and more purposeful about acknowledging the human skills, developing the human skills. I don't know about your fire department or the fire departments of anyone else who may be listening today, but I know my fire department is hiring a lot of people that don't look like the people they hired 20 years ago. Right. Many. And actually there's some significant weaknesses in that for sure. Right. It used to be blue collar, a lot of trades people, honestly, we had a ton of people who came with experience from volunteer time. That's not who we're getting anymore. Right, right. Because several reasons. Most, most, the biggest reason, I think, is that the volunteer programs don't exist anymore.

[Host]

Agreed.

[Scott Booth]

At least not around where I'm working. And we're pulling a lot of people out of other professions. You know, we've got attorneys, we've got physical therapists, we've got, you know, counselors that are coming into a job with the fire department. We've got all these people that are highly educated, that have a wealth of experience in another area and they are critical thinking people. Right. They are more in touch because outside of our career, and it's not just our career, but the kind of the macho, ego driven thing is not popular in American culture. Anymore. There's probably some areas where that's still celebrated, but I think in a lot of places, definitely in western Washington that is not highly regarded and, and what we try to model and push in, in our, in our culture.

[Host]

Agreed.

[Scott Booth]

One of the reasons why I love being here and why I'm so glad that I'm from New Jersey and I'm, and I'm a hardcore Washingtonian. Right.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

Is because of, of the way we are here. If, if you want to be a leader in today's fire service, at least in this region, you have to be someone who's got some mastery of the human skills. Otherwise you will not be successful.

[Host]

That's powerful. So, so let's elaborate a little bit further on that. So with those human skills, right, and you talked about like not going to necessarily be successful, we're say highly successful. We'll say, what are fire departments providing that type of training of human skills? And if not, as we talk about this, being an action oriented, you know, recommendations for listeners to start, you know, being a little more self aware as they listen. How does one say, you know what? That is an area that I'm actually lacking in. I've got the skills and we'll use it. We'll use not just necessarily hard skills, soft skills, but I've got the skill set in whatever it may be. Would it be, you know, I'm a good tactician, I'm a great emt, paramedic, but what I am lacking in, or not even say lacking, let's just use, I'm underdeveloped in the human skills. How does one say, you know what, let me go find out who's, who's delivering that type of training so I could become better. How do we do that?

[Scott Booth]

Yeah, another boy, you're just full of great questions. Brilliant. There are truly not a lot of people that are talking about this, that are focusing on this. I certainly do not know of a education program or a class that this is the centerpiece. I think if I was someone who was looking for opportunities and a lot of the modern leader, a lot of the modern leadership thinkers are really rooted in this. But if I were looking to develop that skill set to offset and, or what sort of look for, to, to just go in, in concert with a hard skill set, I think the best way to accomplish that is in reading, right?

[Host]

Yes.

[Scott Booth]

So absolutely. As I look over at my desk here with all the books I've got, you've already mentioned Brene Brown. She's fantastic for some of these things. I love Simon Sinek. Yes. If I were to, if I were to talk about any one person that I think has got a solid handle on how to lead a team and how to lead a team. Well, it's Simon Sinek. And so anything that he writes or does the snippets on YouTube, you can, you can. That's the great thing about, about our modern technological world is you can consume this in any way you want. Yeah, right. If you don't want to read, don't read, watch YouTube videos, listen to a, listen to a book on, on whatever the audiobook thing is. Right. You can, you can get this information in so many different ways that there really is no excuse for, for anyone not to begin injecting themselves with these concepts and ideas. Agree, agree. That's probably where you find it. Yeah. Maybe you and I need to get together and put together a leadership program on human skills.

[Host]

Well, okay, so here we are because I think we will talk offline about that because this is something that I'm passionate about. I can't do alone. Some colleagues and mentors of mine are trying to get something off the ground. But here's a question I have and I apologize if this is a little, if it's a little direct and we'll edit this out if needed. But it's a question that I'm truly passionate about. So I'm just going to go ahead and throw it out there. Whether it be your organization, maybe my organization regionally, a fire service tradition, whatever it may be, maybe all the above. Maybe some of the above. We have task books that say or qualifications requirements, if you will, to become company officers. Now there's going to be a certain level of, you have to be this many years of service. You have to have gone through, you know, command training for X amount of days or hours. You need to have these certifications and classes regarding, you know, fire officer, blah blah, blah. So I haven't seen any that are human skill development. So you being an assistant chief here, chief, is that something as we sit here and talk about the importance of it, is that something that's on your radar to say, you know what, I know the fire service traditionally isn't, isn't, you know, that's not what we are all about. I know there's contractual issues, labor, you know, labor management type stuff. But, but at what point are we saying, you know what, in addition to having a two year degree in fire service, in addition to taking a one week command class, we are saying now that emotional intelligence training is now A part of that requirement. Requirement. Because we recognize that human skill development is a necessity. More so today than we'll just say 30 years ago, even though you could argue 30 years ago, it was just as important, it just was not recognized or talked about nearly as much. So is this something that you are hoping that maybe your fire department, you as an assistant chief, are saying, you know what, we are going to start making this a part of our development? Our company officers. I will say before you answer that question, and I want to always preface this, that, yes, I agree with you 100%. It is every individual's responsibility and opportunity to go out there and find the books, watch the YouTube videos. Because there is a wealth of information that is at the fingertips, something that we didn't have access to 20 years ago. There was no YouTube, there was no audible, you know, there was no Amazon Prime. We could have the book here by 2:00pm you know, and it's 1:00, it could be here an hour. So it's everyone's opportunity to, to say, I am going to do this because I want to better myself. But now, going back to the question, are you and our leaders in roles such as yourselves, thinking about, you know what, let's, let's add this to the arsenal of our company officer development or leader development?

[Scott Booth]

Yeah, that. Am I personally thinking about it? No, I don't know that I am. I know that our, my department's training chief, Scott Corrigan, who's pretty well known regionally, he does some, he does some instructing, I think he does instructing internationally. Actually, he has been injecting some of this into the regular officers training opportunities that we do have. And those are, and admittedly, that's for existing officers and actually it's really for anybody. It's for those on the list. It's really for. We don't turn anyone away. So even if a young aspiring firefighter was like, I want to go to officers training, I mean, I could pay for it, but I can sit in the room and I can take it in. Right, Absolutely. And so he has been injecting some of that, that, those topics into the routine training. But it is not structured. Right. And you're right, there is no task book that talks about how to be a good listener, how to show empathy. Right. You know, how to, how to be, how to be vulnerable with those that you work with in a responsible way. Right. Because, you know, the paper revealed that there's probably some irresponsible ways to express vulnerability that could undermine your credibility Right. So no, nobody is working on it. I will, this will be a pitch, I don't know if nobody's working on it. Nobody's working on it in my organization that I'm aware of. I will throw another pitch out there for, for the NFA though. If you're looking to do training in, in the fire service related areas and you're not looking to have to wear your bunker gear, the NFA is the place for you. There is very little that happens at the NFA that's hands on, I think fire investigation, when it might be one of the few except exceptions to that. But it's all about how you think, how you write, how that, that's, that's where it focuses is on those non hands on skills.

[Host]

Yes. Okay, Right.

[Scott Booth]

And maybe that's another way to say hands on versus non, hands on for hard versus human or whatever.

[Host]

Yes, yes.

[Scott Booth]

Right. Yeah. And so that's another plug for, for the National Fire Academy.

[Host]

Absolutely.

[Scott Booth]

Not to mention the value that comes from getting together in a room with people who are not where you're from. Who are not from where you're from.

[Host]

Exactly.

[Scott Booth]

And just getting all those unique experiences, those unique perspectives. It not only tells you that everyone's got the same problems you've got, but there's a brotherhood and a sisterhood that comes from sitting and breaking bread. And how do you handle this? How do you handle this? I've had this problem. What do you think? Oh, I solved that problem a year ago. Here's what I did. Like all that is, is immeasurable.

[Host]

Absolutely.

[Scott Booth]

As far as value.

[Host]

Yeah. Thank you. So the National Fire Academy is something that we should all at least entertain. Right. At some point.

[Scott Booth]

Totally.

[Host]

It's definitely something that I aspire to, to, to attend, to go, to take classes, to be a part of a program at some, at some point in my career. But it sounds like this is definitely a resource, something that leaders should definitely entertain at some point in their career. Can you talk about the role of followership in leadership? I mean, I know followership is important. Yes, it goes without saying. But talk about being a good follower and what that means to you and why it's important in being a good, effective leader.

[Scott Booth]

Yeah, I think followership is critical, not only valuable, but critical to leadership. And what I mean is, I think the example that I can use to illustrate this best is the way we do acting officers. So in my organization, if you want to, if you aspire to be a lieutenant as an example, you take a test. Right. Everyone does that in My organization. The only way to act, the only way to be the substitute teacher, if you will, is to be on that list. And that gives you the opportunity to jump into the seat every now and then. And so think about how challenging it would be if on the day you're a follower, you're constantly challenging authority, you're kind of being a jackass, you're being disruptive, you're probably breaking some rules. And then one day a month, let's say you sit in the seat and you're suddenly the person who's the leader and you're suddenly the person who's supposed to hold people accountable and get the most. I mean, it's a day, right? But to get the most out of people, to keep the, to keep the train on the rails. And I think what a lot of new leaders. Well, I think it's two different ways. When, if you are someone who aspires to be a formal leader, you need to start being a good follower today because you are showing everyone around you what you expect. You don't even realize it. What you expect. When you're the leader, you're modeling that behavior whether you know it or not. Conversely, when you are a formal leader and you disagree with a decision at the next level above you, two levels above you, and you go back to the firehouse and you start talking smack about that idiot ops chief doesn't know what he's talking about, he's forgotten where he came from, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You're showing the people that you're, that you're formally leading that they could badmouth you behind your back or if you choose to, to. If you choose to willfully violate a policy. And I say that, I say that intentionally because we all make mistakes, right? In the grand scheme of things, we all may miss the mark on something. Chief Doan says it really, really well. If, if you can, if it's legal, if it's ethical and you can and you'll help somebody, then go ahead and do it, right? He. He wants to be a crap. Now I'm going to forget the way he says it. He wants to be a. You could either be a policy driven organization or you can be a. I can't think of the word he uses. At any rate, he doesn't want us to be, to be overlaid in with policies, right?

[Host]

So handcuffed by the word versus doing the right thing, more or less.

[Scott Booth]

Exactly. And so when you willfully violate a policy in front of those you lead, you show them it's okay. For them to pick and choose which policy they choose to follow and not follow.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

Right. Everything you do in followership has a direct relationship to leadership.

[Host]

Leadership. Yeah, It's a good way to put it.

[Scott Booth]

Right. And we all start as followers.

[Host]

Yes, we do.

[Scott Booth]

Everybody starts as a follower.

[Host]

Yep, yep.

[Scott Booth]

Right. And so I think, I almost think I've said it before, probably over overstated it, but I think followership is almost more important than leadership. Right. I think one of the things that you can do as a leader is to be an exceptional follower of those that you are following.

[Host]

Right.

[Scott Booth]

Because you just, you just model that behavior of what. Of how you want people to treat you. Yeah. And. And if you, again, if you have any interest at any point in your career of being a leader someday, you really should take stock of how you're following.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

Today.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

Because some of those people will be around in five years when you finally said, decide it's time to promote.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

And they're going to be like, wait a minute.

[Host]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. You can, you can't turn a switch and say, I'll act this way, but when I make a decision to do that, then I'll stop.

[Scott Booth]

Right, exactly.

[Host]

Yeah. It comes back to modeling behavior, like you said. And it's. Yeah. I mean, I love how you say it. It's. I mean, followership is something that we all are. And, and that's the thing too is even when followers become formal leaders will say you are still a follower in many aspects as well. So it doesn't, it's not that you stop becoming a follower and then you're a leader. You're still continuing your followership journey all the way through. You just also happen to be a formal leader at this point as well. So are you going to be a leader that's, you know, that's following and then you're going to be the decision maker, if you will, but then still continue to be able just use words just because for the sake of it, continue to be a jackass. Well, then there you go. You're a jackass follower attempting to be a good leader as well. And can that really be effective? And I think the answer is not. Not really.

[Scott Booth]

Not really.

[Host]

Yeah. So what's. I want to ask this question because we've talked about, you know, being vulnerable. We've talked a lot about just a lot of great concepts. But you, Chief, what is one of the biggest challenges that you faced when you were an early leader, an emerging leader at, in your career, and how did you navigate through that challenge?

[Scott Booth]

Well, it kind of, I think my biggest challenge was what we just talked about. I was not a great follower. I was very mouthy. I had all kinds of opinions and, and wasn't afraid to share them. And I think, I think the biggest challenge I had when I, when I first had the opportunity to be a formal leader was credibility. I had to, I had to earn the trust of those that I was trying to lead. I had to show everyone that, that I wasn't who you remember. And a lot of that comes with, I think a lot of that comes with age. It comes with wisdom, it comes with experience. In my organization, you can get temporary appointments, right. So if you have a lieutenant who's going to be off for an extended period of time, they will pull someone from the list to kind of be the long term substitute teacher.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

And I, and I had a guy who went out, he went out for a lot of injuries over his career. So I don't remember what it was. I think it was a shoulder, but it gave me like a nine month temporary appointment. And so I got a, I got a crew for like nine months. Right. And so it's not just keeping the plate spinning. If you're going to be there for that long, you actually have an opportunity to, you know, to change or to really lead people. And it wasn't until I had that opportunity that I began to see kind of what made this so cool. Right. What made formal leadership so appealing. Because when I took the test, I really, frankly, I didn't have much interest in promoting. It was just, you know, I skipped a couple tests from when I was eligible. It was just time. It felt like it was time. And so I took it and, and really had no interest. But as I took that crew and I had an opportunity to lead them over extended period of time, I started to see what made it kind of what made it so appealing. And it was an opportunity to help a struggling firefighter who was, who was kind of having a hard time keeping his motivation. I had another firefighter who in reality was being under challenged. And it became apparent to me almost by accident that, oh, that's what's going on here. No one's challenging you.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

Like you're super capable, but no one's challenging you. And because no one's challenged you, everyone thinks you're lazy. You're not lazy, you're far from lazy.

[Host]

Yeah, right.

[Scott Booth]

And so all these things that I learned as I was, as I was kind of going through that experience and I think in the way that I interacted with these individuals. Right. Of taking the guy that just needed to be challenged to taking the guy who was struggling and helping to brainstorm ways that we could influence the things that we could in his, in his professional life and accept the things that we couldn't. I think that earned me some credibility and I began to kind of dig out of that hole, if you will, that I created because of the follower I was before I had that opportunity.

[Host]

Wow. So it sounds like. Because you mentioned credibility and you obviously mentioned having the opportunity to be in that role, to be, you know, to have a crew and so on and so forth, but obviously not everybody has that opportunity, if you will. And there's a lot of individuals, Right. I could even use throw myself in that there's a lot of individuals out there that will just say has a lack of credibility prior to or even stepping into that new role as a former leader. So it does take, and it's kind of a rhetorical question, but I'm just going to throw it out there. It does take added work to earn. You talked about you had to then earn their trust because the trust either may not have been there or you weren't as credible as maybe some others. But then it just goes back to again, kind of what you said is being a good follower all along the way from day one. Because let's just throw this out there as well. Not all of us, not all company officers necessarily wanted to be company officers all along. They maybe at some point in their career, they have an epiphany. Maybe they had a great leader, a company officer supervisor that kind of pushed them and helped them realize, because I believe that's another quality, we'll say another, you know, job of a good coach and a good supervisor is getting the subordinates to help them realize their potential. Right. It's one, it's, I mean, it's one thing to, you know, be an individual that says, you know what, I'm going to be a company officer one day or I'm going to be the fire chief one day. But there's individuals out there that may not have that feeling from day one, but it's, it's, it's the job of formal leaders, in my opinion, to get people to maybe realize this is something that they should be doing because they're good at it or for whatever other reason. So, but going back to followership, I think that's just like you said. It's. I'm glad we went there. It starts with being a good follower along the way because there's less of. I think, in my opinion, there's less of needing to build credibility if you were a good follower all along, for sure. So going back to the main topic of the day, we talked about vulnerability. So regarding vulnerability here, Chief, how would you suggest a firefighter early in their career will say that they embrace that vulnerability is okay for an individual? They've been here six months, they've been here a year, they've been here five years for them to say, you know what? Being vulnerable is okay, and I don't need to feel like it's being viewed as a weakness. What would you suggest to new firefighters to start doing to embrace vulnerability?

[Scott Booth]

Yeah, I think vulnerability, like, like we talked about earlier on, it can be. It can be something as simple as, I'd like to work on this, or I need help here, or, you know, I honestly don't remember how to do this or how to do that, or I don't know the answer to that question. And so it can start in a very. I. I won't say, yeah, no. In an innocent way. And maybe you start with, you know, the next. The next up in front of you. The. Maybe not even the senior. The senior firefighter, but. But whoever's that kind of like three, four, five year firefighter, and that's the person that you. That you kind of try on the vulnerability. Right. Try not for size. See how it fits. See what kind of a reaction you get on something that's. That's really safe. Right. And if you. If you have a good experience with that individual who's like, no, no, yeah, totally. Let me show you, blah, blah, blah, whatever, then you build your confidence in vulnerability. I think. I just. I just think back to how unhappy I was trying to hide my weaknesses. Right. As a young firefighter, as a young paramedic, you know, trying to. Trying to prove to everyone that I belong there. You know, I didn't. I didn't come up through a firefighting family. You heard how I got interested in the fire service. It was on a whim. So I had. There was a lot of imposter syndrome in. In. In the young Scott Booth firefighter. Boy, that's just a miserable place to live.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

You know, Absolutely. So it. It really just starts with. With being intentional about. In a measured way. I get it. People are. A lot of. Some people are more guarded than others. Some people are more open than others, and that's all.

[Host]

Okay.

[Scott Booth]

Yeah. There is no right or wrong way to live your life. I'm not here suggesting that. That Everyone needs to completely flip and become this completely different person. But if everyone who's listening to this can look for an opportunity to be a little more vulnerable in some way while they're at work. Whatever you're comfortable with, if it's something as simple as saying, I could use some help in this area, if it's something like, I don't know, if it's owning a past mistake.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

That can be particularly powerful, especially for a formal leader. Just. Just push yourself outside your comfort zone. Yeah. In my experience, it is rare to find someone who will see that weakness and attack it. Yeah, that is rare.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

Most people who. When they're confronted with vulnerability, it actually is pretty disarming. And it could be empowering.

[Host]

It could be.

[Scott Booth]

Absolutely. I get that it's scary, and I don't know what your culture is like in your. In your organization. I know in this organization, in my culture, I would say for the last decade or more, vulnerability has been celebrated. And it's because Chief Burgess and now Chief Doan have both led with vulnerability, and they weren't shy about it and they weren't ashamed of it. Yeah. It was just the way that they. It's just the way they lead.

[Host]

Oh, I love that. And I think what's powerful, just to recap what you said, is mastering the terms, if you will. I need help in this area. I don't know. I don't understand this. Can you please help? And lastly, ownership of a past mistake. And what that comes down to, I think, is honesty. And. Right. We. We tell people that honesty is a trait that we all need as firefighters. And if you're not taking ownership of a past mistake and you're not saying, you know, can I need help, I made a mistake. Can you help me? Are we truly being honest? I think the answer is no. So I think honesty is just. Is a key. Is a key portion in being vulnerable. So for a young company officer, and I know this is. It's likely the same. It is the same. But if any, in addition, you have a new emerging leader, Right. A new company officer, maybe a new aspiring officer, how would you suggest that they embrace vulnerability and so they're looked at as this new company officer. Embrace the vulnerability, and it's not a weakness. And for that company officer to be okay with that, because we can. Let's just go and throw it out there. Like new company officers will say, there kind of could be a feeling of, well, I need to make sure that I, you know, don't show weakness. I am the New person. I need to show that I deserve this role. I got this command presence, whatever you want to define it or say it's. But how do we suggest that new officers embrace vulnerability as a strength?

[Scott Booth]

Yeah. Some of the research participants were quick to point out that when I asked, I had a question that was specifically, do you see vulnerability as an asset or a liability? That's the way I ordered it. I found. I interviewed 10 people. They were pretty well spread out across zero to five, all the way up to 20 plus years of a service. And what I found was that the more the younger firefighters that I interviewed, they were more likely to see vulnerability as a liability because they were tying it directly to the company officer's leadership qualities on the fire ground. And so what I would say is for the new officer is to look for opportunities to be vulnerable off the fire ground. Right. Because, because the research suggests that it's easy for a firefighter to misinterpret vulnerability on the fire ground because they're relying on you to keep them safe. Right. They're relying on you to make the right choices, to have the right tactics. They're relying on you to make sure they get to go home. And, and it's too easy to misinterpret vulnerability in that context. I, I would say to the new leader, I mean, if you're, if you are someone who accepts a position of leadership in the fire service, you're almost always accepting leadership of a team. Right? Almost always. Until you get to my level where you're, you know, an army of one and super boring and whatever. But you're always, you're always agreeing to be the designated adult on a team. I said it before, I'll say it again. If you think you are the most important person on that team, then you probably have a little bit too high an opinion of yourself. Right. We, this firefighting is a team sport and it requires the input and the expertise and the skills of every member of that team to be successful. And so in the context of your team knowing. Knowing that the team is what makes the group strong, not you as the company officer, I think, I think you start by, by tapping into those strengths that you can recognize in those, in the people on your team.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

And, and maybe it's, hey, you know what? In this, sit in this area, you are better than me in this, so I'm going to rely on you to help guide us. Yeah. Right. And, and, and I personally, that feels like a very safe way to express vulnerability.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

Because you're not Saying I'm weak, don't trust me. You're saying you're strong and we're all going to trust you.

[Host]

Oh, I love that.

[Scott Booth]

Right?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

And the reality is it's going to make the team more effective. There was a, There was an example from my paper. One of the firefighters shared that he was on. I think it was like a, I think it was a, it was structural protection, part of a, of a strike team on a, on a deployment within the state. And he said that the, and the reason why I'm trying to remember the context is that the company officer on this engine wasn't a Wildland geek. Right. A red card guy. And so this company officer said to the crew, which included this member, hey listen guys, this isn't my area of expertise. Right. I know I'm the lieutenant, but I'm really going to rely on you to help us make decisions and to keep us safe. And he said that that lieutenant's willingness to express vulnerability in that way, he said not only strengthen the team, but frankly, it made the team more effective.

[Host]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[Scott Booth]

Right. It can't be scary to acknowledge the strength of a subordinate or a team member.

[Host]

Absolutely right.

[Scott Booth]

Scary.

[Host]

Right, right, right.

[Scott Booth]

Unless. Unless that threatens your own self perception.

[Host]

Right, right, right, right. Absolutely. And I love how you say that because I wrote some things down. And it goes to empowering your members, acknowledging that they are subject matter experts in many arenas that I am not. Right. And. And it goes to the very basics of a crew dynamic. For example, the firefighter, the jump seat firefighter is the expert at taking hydrants and pulling hose. I hope, I hope more so than the company officer. I hope more so than the battalion chief. The engineer is the subject matter expert and driver, operator and engineering, and the apparatus and all the above. So for the company officer to feel like that they are the subject matter expert, you're taking away from the empowerment of others. And that is just the way you said that. It just clicked in my mind that it is okay to allow someone to say, you are the expert. Would you mind sharing? Would you mind teaching? Would you mind helping us become better because of your knowledge, skills and abilities. And it's not me, the formal leader, that has to feel like they have the answers to everything. Because we shouldn't. Nor do we. Well said, their chief. So you are a chief officer. Chief. Obviously I'm not going to let this one slide. We have to go here. So for a chief officer, battalion chief, assistant chief, deputy chief, division fire chief themselves.

[Scott Booth]

Yep.

[Host]

How can one of Your level model vulnerability to their people.

[Scott Booth]

Yeah, I think it's very much in the same way that I just spoke of the company officer is recognizing that you have extraordinarily talented people, people below you, the higher you. When I was a battalion chief, what I saw myself as honestly was I was the person that certainly was like the big picture, eyes, eyes open. But my job was to get resources for the people in front of me that is doing the work so they can be successful. That was it. That was my job. My job, my job was resource management. At the end of the day, they know I'm not going to tell them how to throw the ladder. I'm not going to tell them how to advance the line. I'm not going to tell them this or that. When you tell someone to do search, you don't tell them, do a right hand search and go to the bedrooms for like, you don't, like, like you don't do any of that. Yeah, they're the ones that do that work.

[Host]

Exactly.

[Scott Booth]

So as you get even higher and you're more disconnected, the way that you express a vulnerability is you just are super honest about that.

[Host]

Honest.

[Scott Booth]

Right.

[Host]

There it is.

[Scott Booth]

Yeah, I, I said something on. One of, one of the points that when we were working through before the podcast started is remember where you came from was one of the things that I had written down for the chief officer and it wasn't like, like that's often used like, hey, remember where you came from. Like you've forgotten like, like you're, you're disconnected or you're, or you're, whatever, you're oblivious to the, to the plight of the frontline firefighter. The way I'm saying it is to remember what it, what it was like to be new, to struggle. Right. To deal with really, really hard calls and, and to not get a lot of sleep and all those other things. That's what I want chief officers to be doing is to, is to in essence show a lot of empathy for the people they're leading. Right. Because yeah, you did it once and, and, and arguably you're in a position now where it's not appropriate for you to continue, continue to do that every day because then you wouldn't be effective what you're trying to accomplish, you know, at headquarters. But remember where you came from. Show some empathy to the people you're leading and don't take yourself so darn seriously. Right. Like again, acknowledge the, just the powerful, wise people that are below you that are doing phenomenal work every day, actually taking Care of the citizens. Right. Because that's what we're here for.

[Host]

Yep.

[Scott Booth]

It's not. It's not for me to have to work on a wellness program. Right. The wellness program serves the firefighters, which serves the citizens, but I'm not serving the citizens directly. Right. And so you need to give the credit where it's due. You need to remember what it was like to be dealing with all the things that you dealt with that you don't have to experience every day anymore. Right. Just pour down that. That appreciation for the folks that are still doing the work.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

And don't take yourself so darn seriously.

[Host]

There you go. Support your people as best you can in any way that you can. And don't take yourself too seriously. Listeners challenge. Challenge. Everyone today listening. Right. Challenge everyone to start doing something starting now.

[Scott Booth]

Yep. I think I already said it. I'm going to have to say it again. I would be thrilled if everyone who's listening to this podcast would look for an opportunity to be a little more vulnerable than they're comfortable with.

[Host]

There you go.

[Scott Booth]

And again, you decide what that looks like.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

Right. You decide how to express that. But I want. If I could. If I could just, like, mandate something, and I obviously can't mandate, but if I could really, really encourage everyone to do one thing that was a little more vulnerable than they're comfortable with and just to see what happens. Right. Because I honestly think the proof is in the pudding.

[Host]

Absolutely.

[Scott Booth]

I think. I think for a lot of folks listening to this, it's going to be very well received.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Scott Booth]

And for the ones that. That get taken advantage of because of it, I don't. I don't know what to tell you other than give me a call and let's go grab a cup of coffee and talk about.

[Host]

Yes, yes, I agree. And this is. It's obviously something that we can't. You can't quantify. Again, it's not quantifiable, but I say this a lot. And when I. When I. Whether we do the listeners challenge or a challenge of some sort is imagine. Right. That's all imagined. All the listeners here, as well as you and I imagine the culture change that is implemented if we all did exactly what you said. We all just made a decision, a conscious decision today that each and every one of us are going to be a little more vulnerable just a little bit. Right. And no one's saying how to what extent, but in a decision that we make a policy that's written or just the way we interact with each other, whatever it may be we all just take a 1% increase in showing vulnerability. What would the fire service look like again, quantify, unquantifiable. But we can all imagine and agree that we become better tremendously. You know, 1% by all of us is where massive change starts to happen. So that's the listeners challenge. Chief Leadership challenge. So, obviously, we're here today for many reasons. I know we had your fire chief here on the podcast. We've had the wolf pack here. Many individuals would have agreed and appreciate the fact that Assistant Chief Scott Booth is on the kitchen table today. But we get to ask you now, is there someone out there that you would like to challenge to be a future guest to share leadership on the kitchen table?

[Scott Booth]

You know, I've been thinking about this a lot, and I wasn't sure if I wanted to identify someone internal to my organization or if I wanted to look outside of Gig Harbor. And I'm still a little undecided, but I think the person I'd like to challenge is. He's already been identified. He'll be taking the seat on January 1 as the deputy Chief of Operations with Gig harbor, and his name is Nick Langlow. He's currently battalion chief on a shift. And I admire Nick a lot, but we've done a lot of work together over the years, both in and out of local leadership. He's a man of. Of unimpeachable integrity, and he's got some really, really good ideas about how to not only effectively lead a team, but how to effectively lead oneself. And so I think he'd be a really good guest to come on here and, and just talk about some of his ideas.

[Host]

Absolutely. Well, thank you. I always appreciate and honored and humbled that an individual such as yourself and our guest was continue to put a name out there to say, you know what, this individual would be phenomenal to talk leadership on the show, to share their experiences, perspectives and knowledge. So I'm pretty sure I could obtain his contact information. I've got a good contact in front of me that probably looks. That works very closely with him. So I'll reach out to obtain either a phone number or an email or both. And I will reach out to Italian Chief, soon to be Deputy Chief of Operations, Nick Langlow to see. Well, to let him know that he was leadership challenged. Before we close on the kitchen table today, what would you like to leave our listeners with as far as a lasting leadership thoughts on the kitchen table?

[Scott Booth]

No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care. But I think that there's a tremendous amount of wisdom in that statement. Agree. And I mean, it speaks for itself.

[Host]

It does. I just want to thank you, Chief, for taking your time today on this busy afternoon for, first of all, being a guest on the kitchen table and sharing the phenomenal message on vulnerability, something that we all listeners need to can embrace a little bit more, more of to become more effective leaders. So with that, thank you everybody, for tuning in today to the kitchen table. We truly hope that you found this time valuable, and we hope that we've inspired you to take action, to lead and to spread the leadership conversation. Until next time, be safe, be intentional, and stay curious.