Ep. 55: Dave McGylnn, Fire Chief - The Training Officer

Summary

Summary of Podcast Episode: Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table
Episode: Ep. 55: Dave McGlynn, Fire Chief - The Training Officer
Release Date: October 19, 2024

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Introduction

In the 55th episode of Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table, host Berlin Maza engages in an in-depth dialogue with Fire Chief Dave McGlynn, a seasoned professional in fire and emergency services since 2001. The conversation delves into the intricacies of leadership within the firehouse, emphasizing the pivotal role of training officers in shaping effective teams and fostering continuous development.

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Guest Background

Dave McGlynn brings a wealth of experience from both municipal and federal fire and emergency service roles. His career progression includes positions as a firefighter, driver, operator, company officer, training officer, and operations chief. McGlynn is not only an accomplished fire instructor and public speaker but also an author of the book "The Training Officer: Do You Have What It Takes?". Additionally, he hosts the Fire Engineering Podcast: The Training Officer and serves on advisory boards for FDIC and Fire Engineering.

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Early Career and Personal Development

McGlynn shares his journey from growing up in New Jersey to ascending the ranks in the fire service. Born in the early '80s to baby boomer parents, he highlights the blend of traditional values with a progressive mindset that has shaped his leadership philosophy.

[04:54] "Success is done by looking in a mirror, not by looking out a window."

He recounts overcoming personal challenges, such as struggling with EMT certification, by shifting focus inward rather than blaming external factors. This introspective approach fueled his resilience and dedication, ultimately leading him to his current role as Fire Chief.

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Role of Training Officers

The discussion pivots to the essential functions of a training officer within the fire service. McGlynn emphasizes that training is not merely about logging hours but ensuring quality education that translates into effective performance on the job.

[25:50] "If you're training people poorly, you could have a thousand hours per individual, but they suck at their job, so you suck it as a training officer."

He asserts that true leadership manifests when trainees exhibit the skills and conduct expected of them, reinforcing that the effectiveness of training is measured by tangible performance outcomes.

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Key Qualities of Effective Training Officers

McGlynn outlines several critical attributes that make a training officer successful:

1. Humility and Confidence

   • Humility: Recognizes that they do not possess all the answers and values the expertise of their team members.
   • Confidence: Maintains authority and command in training settings, ensuring respect and adherence from trainees.

   [19:21] "You have to be humble, but you also have to be confident."

2. Continuous Learning

   • Training officers must remain students themselves, continually updating their knowledge to effectively develop others.

   [19:14] "You have to keep learning. How are you going to effectively develop others if you don't know the updated content and curriculum?"

3. Educator Mindset

   • Focuses on succession planning and empowering others to surpass their own capabilities.

4. Positive Influence

   • Recognizes the immense responsibility of influencing trainees positively, avoiding negative impacts that can hinder performance and morale.

5. Mutual Trust

   • Builds a foundation of trust, ensuring that trainees believe in their training officer's intentions and capabilities.

   [36:11] "Mutual trust is you believe they have the capabilities of doing the thing and you're going to try to give them that nudge."

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The Training Officer Podcast

McGlynn discusses the evolution of his podcast, originally titled "Networking with Dave McGlynn", which he rebranded to "The Training Officer" to better reflect its focus. The podcast serves as a platform to share insights on personal and professional development, training methodologies, and the importance of psychology and sociology in training programs.

[15:12] "Everybody has a training officer. Everybody resonates with what that means."

He highlights the value of digital platforms in expanding the reach and impact of training discussions, allowing for a broader exchange of knowledge beyond geographical constraints.

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Role of Books and Continuous Learning

A significant portion of the conversation centers around the importance of reading and continuous self-improvement. McGlynn recommends several leadership books that have influenced his approach:

1. "The 26 Critical Lessons Every Leader Should Know" by John Maxwell

   • Emphasizes learning from mistakes and adapting strategies accordingly.

2. "Command Presence" by Frank Ritchie

   • Offers insights from both management and union perspectives, valuable for handling labor relations.

3. "Rescue Me" by Jesse Quinaulti

   • Focuses on the human resources aspect of leadership, exploring sociological factors in team management.

[64:28] "You have to be a student. You have to keep learning."

McGlynn underscores that leaders should not confine themselves to a single genre but should seek diverse knowledge to better understand and lead their teams effectively.

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Advice for New Firefighters

When addressing newer firefighters, McGlynn advises them to embrace their inherent influence and actively participate in training and mentorship roles:

[53:18] "If you want to get promoted here one day, you better be involved with training."

He encourages new recruits to share their fresh knowledge and experiences, positioning themselves as mentors to enhance the team's overall competence and cohesion.

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Advice for Emerging Leaders

For aspiring company officers and training officers, McGlynn emphasizes the significance of continuous education and self-development:

[56:11] "Not all readers are leaders, but all leaders are readers."

He advocates for setting reading assignments and engaging in mock training sessions to build confidence and refine instructional skills. This proactive approach ensures that emerging leaders are well-prepared to handle both the technical and interpersonal aspects of leadership.

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Perspectives on Chief Officers

McGlynn reflects on his role as a Fire Chief, highlighting the balance between operational responsibilities and administrative duties. He stresses the importance of never forgetting one's roots and maintaining a genuine connection with the team.

[73:02] "Never forget where you came from and understand that, that there's two certainties in life and especially it resonates with the fire service."

He advocates for a leadership style that prioritizes the collective good, emphasizing teamwork and mutual respect over individual accolades. McGlynn shares his challenges and sacrifices in the chief role, underlining the need for passion and dedication in high-responsibility positions.

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Final Thoughts and Recommendations

In closing, McGlynn challenges listeners to maintain their passion and engage in preventative maintenance for their personal and professional well-being. He reiterates the essence of leadership in the fire service: being a positive influence, fostering mutual trust, and continuously developing oneself and others.

[78:23] "Never lose your passion. Find a new way to fall in love with this every day."

He encourages participation in events like FDIC and promotes his own resources, including his book and podcasts, as tools for ongoing leadership development.

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Notable Quotes

• On Effective Teaching:

  [00:01] "You're not a teacher unless they're learning... if you're not a developer and an instructor, you're not teaching."

• On Continuous Learning:

  [19:14] "You have to keep learning... you are responsible to educate people."

• On Humility and Confidence:

  [19:21] "You have to be humble, but you also have to be confident."

• On Mutual Trust:

  [36:11] "Mutual trust is you believe they have the capabilities of doing the thing and you're going to try to give them that nudge."

• On Leadership Responsibility:

  [34:03] "You are in a position of influence... your power relies heavily on your responsibility to others."

• On Never Forgetting Your Roots:

  [73:02] "Never forget where you came from... it's a we, not me thing."

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Conclusion

Episode 55 of Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table offers profound insights into the role of training officers and the broader spectrum of leadership within the fire service. Fire Chief Dave McGlynn articulates a vision of leadership grounded in continuous learning, humility, mutual trust, and a steadfast commitment to team development. His experiences and recommendations serve as a valuable guide for current and aspiring leaders aiming to foster excellence and resilience within their organizations.

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Connect with Dave McGlynn:

• Book: "The Training Officer: Do You Have What It Takes?" available at Firefighter Book Club or Amazon.
• Podcast: The Training Officer Podcast
• Social Media:
  • Twitter/X: @chief_mclynn
  • Facebook: Dave McGlynn
  • Instagram: Dave McGlynn
  • LinkedIn: Dave McGlynn
• Upcoming Event:
  • FDIC April Conference: Early bird registration available. McGlynn will be teaching sessions on training officer competencies.

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Remember: Effective leadership is a journey of continuous growth, self-awareness, and unwavering dedication to the betterment of your team and community.

Transcript

[A]

You're not a teacher unless they're learning. It's the same thing as you're not leading unless people are following you. If they're not performing the skills that you have offered them and they are not conducting themselves in a firehouse as the people that you're trying to develop them to be as humans and as adults and as stewards to the community, then you're not doing anything because nothing you are are doing is showing in in as a result in their performance or the way they conduct themselves. So on paper you can have this bang up training program. That's why I, I get, I'm not getting in rabbit holes. I get in his arguments with people about quality versus quantity. I don't care how many, you know, confirmed or documented training hours each person in your organization has. If you're training people poorly, you could have a thousand hours per individual. But they suck at their job, so you suck it as a training officer. So don't sit there and be like, I trained a thousand hours this year. Like, who gives a shit? They suck at their job. So their performance is based on your capability and being a developer and an instructor. If you're not doing that, you're not teaching. So therefore your students aren't learning. You're not a teacher.

[B]

Apartment.

[A]

The First Responder Liaison Network is proud to present to you the Kitchen Table Podcast. Join us as we explore leadership from perspectives around the globe. From firefighters to fire Chiefs, civilians to CEOs, our conversations have one simple goal. Build more leaders.

[B]

Good evening everyone and welcome to the Kitchen Table. The Kitchen Table is brought to you by the First Responder Liaison Network. The network is organized for the development, implementation and ongoing support of mentorship and professional development programs inspiring our youth and young adults to mature into engaged civic leaders and resilient community sentinels. Music and graphics are brought to you by Kai Elephant Productions. Just going to cut to the chase here today we're having a conversation around all things training officer. We're just going to leave it at that because you'll want to tune in to today's episode to get schooled up on what it takes to be an effective, good training officer. Our guest today has been in fire and emergency services since 2001 with a career spanning municipal and federal roles. He currently serves as a professional fire chief within Federal fire and emergency services. Over his tenure, he has had experiences as a firefighter, driver, operator, company officer, training officer, and operations chief. He has shared his knowledge as a featured speaker at FDIC International and serves on the advisory board for FDIC and Fire Engineering. As an accomplished fire instructor and public speaker, our guest has contributed articles to Fire Engineering magazine and Fire Federation and hosts the fire Engineering podcast, the Training Officer. Our guest holds a Bachelor of Science in Fire and Emergency Services Administration, as well as a master of Arts in Organizational Leadership. He is the author of the book the Training Officer. You have what it takes on the kitchen table. This evening. I welcome fire chief Dave McGlin to the show. Good evening, Chief. How are you today?

[A]

I'm good, brother. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

[B]

Of course, of course. Well, I am glad, like we talked off line, glad we're finally able to meet. And I will publicly want to thank first and foremost Chief Steve Presborowski, obviously, who, you know, he made the connection through the leadership challenge. And so thank you, Chief, for accepting that challenge, your willingness to come on the show, to talk leadership with us today.

[A]

So, yeah, again, he's gonna thank you for saying his name, right? Well, you did. You nailed it.

[B]

I did have to ask him and then. So it was some practice. Yeah. I don't want to misspeak someone's name, obviously.

[A]

So, yes, I just call him Priz. I actually can pronounce his name, but I just call him Priz because as we do the circuit, everybody's always like, yeah, Steve. And I'm like, just call him prison. It's easier.

[B]

I like that. I like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's awesome. So I'm going to enjoy this conversation, Chief, because obviously your book, and I know offline I, you know, self admitted, but I'm going to admit even publicly here, I did not have a chance to read your book, but your book, being the training officer, do you have what it takes? I just first of all love the, I love the title. So today we're going to talk about training, the training officer, the training division, talk about leadership as it pertains to all the above and I'm sure a lot more. But before we start on that conversation, do you mind sharing a little bit about Dave McGlynn?

[A]

Thanks, man. So, Dave McGlynn, I grew up in New Jersey. So the name of the town that I grew up in is, is island, which is a section of Woodbridge Township. This is. Now you already know I'm painting a political picture of the, the, the, you know, the, the lines in the sand of how New Jersey's created. So it's one of the earlier states. So there's a lot of, you know, boroughs, townships, towns, everything. Right. So geographically, the best way I can explain it is I grew up literally right outside Staten Island. So if you look at Staten island on a map and then you look to the left, that's where I grew up. So my mother's from Jersey City. My parents were born in the 40s, so I'm quite literally a product of baby boomers. So there's a lot of old school traditional values. However, I was born in the early 80s, which gave me kind of that cusper from the Gen X, Gen X to the millennial thing, which is beneficial for me. Right. Because I have traditional values. But I understand the value in looking at things for the future for progression reasons, so I'm not stuck in my ways. One of the taglines that I had had when I first started teaching was bringing old school traditions with new ideas. So I attribute a lot of that to my. My parents and the upbringing I had. I'm the youngest of four. I got two older brothers and an older sister. My father was a Vietnam veteran. And like I said, they. That I. It was not easy growing up because I was not planned for. But I feel like a lot of my successes, my blessings, my opportunities, and my willingness to be driven no matter what is. Is. Is absolutely attributed to my upbringing. New Jersey's a. We're tough people. So with that, we're constantly trying to prove ourselves and prove that we should have a seat at the table. You grow up under that shadow in New York, especially New York City, and it's. It's a big shadow. So it's tough to, you know, have your seat at the table, per se. And then in the fire service, it's very cutthroat. So anyway, volunteered for a while, tried to get hired in a lot of municipalities. Just, you know, it was just tough. I wasn't driven in the sense that I was making excuses for why I hadn't gotten an opportunity to get on the job. And I was pointing the finger and blaming everybody else. A friend of mine, Terry Kennedy, told me, your problem is you. You need. You're a good fireman. You're a great guy. You need to reevaluate and stop worrying about everybody else. And it clicked. You know, success is done by looking in a mirror, not by looking out a window. When you're looking out a window, you're. Even if you're. If. Even if you're bitching about somebody else, you're. You're their cheerleader. And while it's great hope for people and friends of yours to have success, what are you investing in yourself? So I stopped worrying about what everybody else was doing, started focusing on myself, got hired with the federal government. The first base I was at was in Maine Naval Air Station Brunswick, Maine at Brat, which means it closed. And then I got relocated to Pennsylvania. I went through the ranks in Pennsylvania, made it up to company officer. I was a captain on an engine company and then in the Army. In the DoD you can transfer to other bases. It's a civilian job, just for educational piece for anybody wondering. So it's not like I'm in the army, it's just like a city. Each base is like its own city. You have to be self sustainable. With that comes a police, fire department, etc. So I took a battalion chief job, battalion chief rank up at West Point, the US Military Academy in New York. And I was the training chief there. And that's really where I really developed a lot of my craft opening came up back in Pennsylvania to base them at. Now I didn't have to move my family. We were back in Pennsylvania and I was an assistant chief did operations and then the fire chief position opened up and being only in my early 40s, I didn't know if it would ever work out. But I had nothing to lose and I put all of myself into it. And thus I am now the fire chief. Which is great and it's, and it's hard at the same time, but it's been an amazing journey through all the trials, tribulation, setbacks, and we'll discuss this as we go on. But I never regressed. Yeah, you know, mentally I did. There's times where you're beaten, but I wouldn't be having this opportunity to talk to you and do what I'm doing had I have allowed myself to regress.

[B]

Wow. So I'm gonna stay there for a minute. So when you say allow yourself to regress, what do you mean by that? Like you didn't allow yourself to be held back because of a decision or what do you mean exactly by, by that?

[A]

Multiple things. So a lot happens in our career. There's bureaucracy, there's politics and then there's self inflicted wounds. So you, you can put yourself in a position where in firehouse is tough, you try to find your way, you try to fit in and you can do stupid things to beat a clown, to impress people and fit in. You know, you regret those decisions later, decisions you made for not taking on an opportunity or if you're struggling with training or like for me, I struggled with getting my emt. Seems like an easy thing for most. It was very difficult for me because I made excuse after excuse and why I shouldn't have to be an EMT, firefighter shouldn't be EMTs. Why do I have to be an EMT? And I kept failing because I wasn't taking it serious and understanding that it was actually important and there was value there. These are things that would set you back. I have a beautiful wife, and I have two beautiful children. This job takes you away from your family more than it should. So you make decisions on taking overtime or traveling for training, and it's taxing on your personal life. And never did I ever once allow myself to either quit throwing a towel or be consumed by negative thoughts. So that's what I mean when I say regress. Like, I didn't allow myself to go backwards in my capabilities and doing the job. I didn't allow myself to go backwards in my drive, and I didn't allow myself to go backwards. And what was what mattered the most at home. And I stayed the course. And it was not easy, and it still is not easy. But I owe a lot of that to my parents and in my support at home now with my wife and kids, that there's a lot of shit that gets thrown at us in every aspect between the job, the things you see, the time away, the training, you go to your capabilities, losing out on promotions, getting in trouble, doing something stupid, or somebody bullying you in the firehouse and picking on you because they just don't like you, either because they're threatened by you or you're different, whatever. And those are things that hold us back. And that's where we regress in our. In our abilities, and we lose potentially great firefighters because of. Like, that. Yeah. And I've been through all that, so I can empathize with people when I go through it. And I didn't allow it to consume me in the sense that I'm here today and. Wow, I'm not trying to sound corny. It just. No, that's not easy to pass. 23 years and I still made it through, so I'm pretty happy about that.

[B]

Well, that's a. Well, thank you for sharing that point of view, because I've never heard it. You know, the regress. Regress comes. Comes across as, like, going backwards, per se, but you're using regression as a point of, like, you didn't let something, whether it be a situation, an opportunity, to hold you back from moving forward. And so I love how you say that, you know, and you made you put a good perspective out there, because you're right. The fire Service does take you away from many things, right, wrong or indifferent. And you didn't if you always stayed the course because you know the end goal. So I love how you say that. That was a good point of view there. Yeah. So training and development. So I know a big topic of us for this today is we're going to talk a lot about training and development and the journey that you're going to take us on over the next several minutes or so. But you host a podcast, the training Officer, the training office. So talk about the podcast. How'd that come about? And what are your, what are the topics that are. That are discussed on that podcast?

[A]

Thank you. So in 2018. Well, actually, no, I'm lying. So in 2017, I floated in an idea to, God rest his soul, Bobby Holton. I called him up. I was driving to New Jersey to visit family. I said, chief, I got this idea where I want to interview people and I want to talk to them about, you know, training, leadership, etc. So Bobby's like, oh, this is a cool idea. So I said, yeah, maybe we could do an audiobook. And he's like, yeah, he's like, well, let's, let's, let's figure it out. So some time went by and I thought he forgot about it and he didn't. And he says, well, we're doing this blog talk radio thing and I want you to, to do that thing you talked to me about a few months ago. Instead of doing the, the audiobook, I want you to interview people. We're going to give you a show and we're gonna call it NETWORKING with Dave McGlynn. And I thought, like, Bobby, God rest his soul, but you know, he had his way of doing stuff. But I think I, I always did my thing in a sense that, like, I appreciated direction from my, my seniors, but I also knew what I needed to do. And I felt like no one knows or gives a who Dave McLinn is, so no one's gonna ever watch or listen to the show. If I call it NETWORKING with Dave McGlynn. Like, who's that? Right? So I called it networking for success. And we did that for a couple years and everything just kind of. It's like I, I'm nothing like Vinnie Dunn, but like, Vinnie Dunn has this, this thing where he talks about how he didn't realize his passion was for building construction until like 20, 30 years into it, Right? And I always thought my thing was leadership because I felt like I enjoyed developing and inspiring people. But the key word there was developing People, Right. That was the first word I used. And lo and behold, like, I'm passionate about training and I love training firefighters. I love training people. I love developing people. And it just, I kept, somehow the show just kept taking this, this, this, this turn toward training, training, training, training. And then everything I would teach and write for Fire Engineering was training, training. So we just decided like, we're just going to change the name of the show to the Training Officer. Wow. And, and, and it's, and it's, it's literally now it's going on, I think two years of it being called a training officer and it just works.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Everybody has a training officer. Everybody resonates with what that means. We talk to people about training and I've been blessed that everyone I've had on the show since the beginning to even now with the, the. Not a new format, just a new title. We talk about personal development, professional development, the importance of psychology and sociology, the importance of, of, of training programs, what they should encompass, what they should look like, and then different types of training opportunities. I use my, my, my, my show that Fire Engineering gave me to have people tell others that are listening, you know, like some nuggets, some information, some suggestions where they can find training, different topics. And we talked about apparatus positioning one time just recently we had the president of the ISFSI come on and talk about what they offer. And you know, it's, it's a great way to share knowledge and share training topics and information on a much, to a much bigger classroom digitally, which is just, you know, that's the beauty of our technology. We did this, you know, human beings created this technology where you're in Washington and I'm in Pennsylvania and we're talking shop right now. I mean, how cool is that?

[B]

It's, it's true. Yeah, it's amazing. There's no reason to not connect. There's no reason to not absorb information from across the world, from people that you may never otherwise would have met, talked to, learned about. So you're absolutely right. So I've heard Anthony Castro say this, and I wanted your thoughts on this. So he said, it's always resonated with me. I spent a lot of time in training and I love training as well. But he said every company officer is a training officer. Every company officer is the lead training officer of their self, of their crew, sometimes of their battalion. What are your thoughts on that comment? Because as we're going to jump into training and development, how important is that is that phrase right there? Is that Concept.

[A]

Well, it's extremely important. So, first of all, I'd be remiss to not say that Anthony is one of the best out there. Okay. Love the guy. Probably one of the sweetest people in, in the, the large stage instructor era. He's. He's great. And he is absolutely spot on. Hit the nail on the head, which is how you know that he has experience to back up what he's saying. Because any good training officer, and I say this all the time, while it may not be a necessary or written prerequisite to become an official training officer position. Right. You should have been a company officer. You should have led a crew and, and worked on how you develop that core. Four or five guys that are on your crew, because if you don't know how to do that, you're certainly not going to be able to develop a training program that covers 6,200 people. You're not going to understand how to do that. It starts with that intimate, the intimacy that you have as a company officer. Company officers are lead firefighters. All right? They're. They're a boss, but they're their crew boss, and they're. And their crew. For most cases, if you're doing it right, there's a level of mutual trust, mutual respect, camaraderie, and then there's this strength in continuity and cohesion, and people just really develop each other. Good company officers understand the importance of trying their best to set a standard and training their crew to not only meeting, but exceeding that standard. So if you have aspirations of being a training officer, yet you've never rode the front seat and never ran a drill with your crew, good luck. Because it's going to be a hard road. I mean, you can Google and YouTube videos all you want, but eventually people are going to, we're firefighters. We're going to sniff that out and be like, nah, this guy's fake, man.

[B]

So with that being said, what would you say, this being a podcast where people are going to listen, resonate, and try to take a nugget or two away, or 10 nuggets for that matter, what would you say, Chief, what makes a good training officer? Like, what are some things that they, you know, need to have or be to be an effective training officer?

[A]

There's a number of things. It's a great question. I'm not trying to plug my book. I. I have a list of. I have a top 10 in my book.

[B]

Perfect.

[A]

So there's a number of things. Yeah, there's a number of things. I will. Thanks. I will Say a couple of things. I'll just say this. Some of the most important, you have to be a student. So if you're a training officer, you are not exempt from being a student. You have to keep learning. How are you going to effectively develop others if you don't know the updated content and curriculum? Right. You have to have the capability of being an educator. You're a student, but you also are responsible to educate people. And you have to understand that capacity, what that looks like, what that means. In my experience, an educator is somebody who believes in succession planning. You're giving people the goods that you have or you learned and trying to make them better than you, giving them better opportunities than you, so that you, when you leave, they're ready to take it over and make a great. And during that time, while you're there, they're ready. Then you know, they're just that good. But I would honestly say two of the ones that stuck out for me the most in no, in no certain order is you have to be humble, but you also have to be confident. What do I mean when I say that? Well, you don't know everything. And if you're humble enough to know that you don't know anything, you're going to be an effective training officer. You being the training officer doesn't mean you teach everything. It also doesn't mean you're the smartest guy in the room, nor does it mean you're the smartest guy in the field or on the training ground. So once you accept that humility and you're humble enough to be able to accept that, hey, I don't know all this, but I have a firefighter on the floor who's super squared away with knots, and he's going to help me develop, and I'll facilitate a decent training curriculum that will help develop the rest of the firefighters through his knowledge and capabilities of being the not person. Right? But then you have to be confident because you've done it, I'm sure, yourself, like not you did it to somebody, but you've been in class, we go to classes. How many times you get those classroom hijackers? You know, you get those guys that they, they want to raise their hand, they want to tell every story. They think they know more than the instructor. They think they know more than a training officer. If you're a training officer in your local department, you got guys that, you know, they think they know more than you, better than you. And you know, they're, they're threatened or jealous or they, they, they Scoff at the very validity of your, of your position. You know, though, oh well, of course you're the training officer because you couldn't hack it on the floor or you couldn't hack it in the engine or whatever. You know, like a stowaway position. When you're a train officer, you got to own the room. You have the confidence, your training program and they, they're the students, you're the teacher. You know, how good would you do growing up in school if. If the students were running the classroom, you know, the. That goes back to the saying the inmates are running the asylum. It's not a dictatorship. But make no mistake, you know, you're humble enough to, to tap into those that have information that makes the training better, but you're in charge. It's the same as being an incident commander. There's people inside the building no better than me while I'm outside, I'm still in command.

[B]

You said something very important and it goes to something we've talked about, I think just very recently in the last couple of episodes on the show. Some of our guests have talked about being vulnerable as a leader. You talked about the importance of vulnerability. You talked about just now is admitting or having the humility to, to, to say or to just understand that you're that just because you're training officer leading a training drill or multi company operation, whatever. You might not be the expert in everything. You should be knowledgeable in many of the topics, but maybe not every single one. And being able to admit that, you know what, we got this big drill coming up. I'm not the expert at knots. I can help teach this other portion. But being able to lean on you, your crewmates, your teammates, the other members of your training division, the other officers to say, hey, can you assist me in doing this training event? Because you are better than I am at this. But that's okay, right? Being able to just admit not having that ego, be confident in what you know, but also don't have the ego to say, I know everything, so I shall teach everything. So what do you think about this quote here, Chief John Wooden. I'm sure you know John Wooden coach ucla. Who knows how many championships there's so many, right? He said. And I did I say what I'm about to say because it goes right along the lines of you said educator. And I've loved that because no one on the show has ever talked about being an educator when it comes to being leading a crew or training. And so this brings me to John Wooden and I have like three of his books. But he said you haven't taught until they have learned. When, when, when I read that part, it just, it clicked on so many different levels because we don't talk about that in the fire service enough. I don't believe we don't talk about, you know, we, we will go to a training event and sometimes, oftentimes. Right. And maybe this is just my opinion, but I want your thoughts is we'll teach a drill. Maybe it's to recruits, maybe to our apprentices new, maybe to a new company officer, whatever. But it's almost like we jump to the conclusion too often. Like, well, they didn't get it and I tried teaching so that's, that's, that's on them. But we don't enough talk about, you know, like what you said, the educator part. Like maybe I wasn't enough of an educator to get them to understand or learn that. What are your thoughts on the training officer being in charge or responsible for making sure that they learn because you haven't taught anything until they've learned it.

[A]

So. Great question. So what the coach is referring to, at least in my interpretation, and I'm sure you would agree, is what is the point in what we're doing if they're not performing the task and doing better than they were doing yesterday? So we're wasting each other's time, effort and energy and, and breath. You know, I have this joke where I say I wasted 15 minutes. I'm going to die 15 minutes earlier now because I just wasted 15 minutes of breath that nothing resonated. Right. Which is on me. So you're not, you're not a teacher unless they're learning. It's the same thing as you're not leading unless people are following you. If they're not performing the skills that you have offered them and they are not conducting themselves in the firehouse as the people that you're trying to develop them to be as humans and as adults and as stewards to the community. Then you're not doing anything because nothing you are doing is showing as a result in their performance or the way they conduct themselves, themselves. So on paper you can have this bang up training program. That's why I, I get, I'm not getting in rabbit holes. I get in his arguments with people about quality versus quantity. I don't care how many, you know, confirmed or documented training hours each person in your organization has. If you're training people poorly, you could have a thousand hours per individual, but they suck at their job. So you suck it as a training officer. So don't sit there and be like, I trained a thousand hours this year. Like, who gives a. They suck at their job. So their performance is based on your capability and being a developer and an instructor. If you're not doing that, you're not teaching. So therefore your students aren't learning. You're not a teacher.

[B]

Yeah, I love. This is awesome. You said something so key you said, which is on me, meaning you as the training officer. Right? Saying that's on me. So again, oftentimes, you know, we'll, we'll. We're so quick to say, you know, I tried teaching, but they didn't learn it. Like, sure, maybe that is the case, but are we reflecting enough? Are we having enough humility, like what you said earlier, to say, you know what, maybe I just didn't, you know, teach them in a way that they could have learned, or maybe I just didn't, you know, explain it in a way. So I guess going back to educator, which I love that. So how do we then become. Because we don't think of educator when we think firefighter. We don't think educator when we think company officer. That word right, doesn't. Doesn't necessarily come up. But I guess the question becomes, how do we become better educators? Say, right, say I'm going to be a new company officer. And I know that being an educator is key in developing people because I'm going to be now responsible for them as a crew. What would you say is, how does one develop themselves to be now a better educator as part of their development?

[A]

So one, everything starts with acceptance. Okay, so like, it's the same with, we learn when we're doing EMT and medic, you know, stages of grief. So in reverse, for your capabilities in development and your capabilities in. In progressive aspirations. Meaning, like, so let's say you're trying to be an educator. Well, first you have to accept you're an educator. So in the, you know, sayings, heavy weighs the crown. Let's start this way. You have to be selfless. And that sounds sexy, but it's super hard. Because by nature, every one of us has some level of narcissistic tendencies. If you look at the definition and the traits of narcissism, every one of us has at least one. Even if we're the most humble guy in the world, every one of us has one, right? So, you know, you have to look at it like, are you doing this for notoriety? Are you doing this as a segue for a Promotion possibility later to put on bugles, to put on rank, to be able to pound your chest and say, I'm in charge. You know, like the wedding singer, you know, I have a microphone. You will listen every word I have to say.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Or are you actually interested in developing others? And are you interested in the common good of trying to make our fire service and those that are in our firehouses better at what they're going to do? If not on a cliche don't, you know, for the listener, don't just sit there and say, you know, well, yeah, you know, this isn't an interview. I'm not interviewing you for a job. I don't want to hear your answer. I want you to actually soul search. And, and that's what it takes to answer your question. It takes this level of soul searching and acceptance. On. Do you really care about the well being of everybody? And what I mean when I say everybody is there's people in your firehouse you don't like. Okay? That's human nature. You're going to clash with people. So especially in a society now, we found ways to really clash more than we ever have over stupidity. Are you offering the same opportunities and the same information to those that you don't like? Furthermore, the next question to that, here's the challenge. Are you willing to adjust your methodology so that someone that you don't like can find a way to find commonality that they can retain the information you're trying to give because they don't like you already? So the sound of your voice turns them off, right?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

So you got to find a way to speak language that's common interest to them so that they still get the end result and meet the objective of the training. That's no easy task. So to be an educator, you have to have that capability and wherewithal and discipline to want to educate everyone. Not just those that you think are your hot firefighters.

[B]

Yeah. Not just those that are, you know, that are going to listen to you even if it's incorrect information because they're your friend. Yeah. That is key because it is your responsibility to teach. If you're a training officer, you're in a position of influence, which we're going to talk about very next. The position of influence. It is your job. Otherwise, like you said, which I love what you said is you're wasting time. If you're just saying information and giving information and you know that people aren't gonna listen to you, you are, you're wasting your time. So, yeah, I love how you say you gotta. You gotta be able to navigate. That's what leaders do. They navigate from the situation, right? And it's not going to be the same as you said. It's not going to be easy. In fact, it's not supposed to be easy. It's going to be hard. Hard. Position of influence. That's something that we're also going to talk about. So can you talk a little, Chief, Expand on your thoughts on position of influence as we navigate Continuing leadership.

[A]

I love that you're asking about it. So I can't. I can't claim ownership of it, but I will say that I can't patent it and I can't trademark it, but I know that I'm the only one that's been saying it for like the past 10 years and write it down. Truly, right now. It's. Truly, it's something that I've always believed because you always talk about. They always talk about the, you know, position of power, position of leadership, position of rank, position of authority, right? And I feel like they use those terminologies and they're all wrong. They're all wrong. You're in a position of influence. So like Uncle Ben says to Peter Parker, with great power comes great responsibility. You have the responsibility to influence others. You have this opportunity, no matter what the rank. Early lieutenant, captain, training officer, training chief, whatever it is. Fire chief, operations chief, assistant chief, deputy chief, name it, say it, whatever. Any opportunity you have where you are given a responsibility over other human beings is a position of influence. How are you influencing them? Because in the training officer realm, like you just said before about giving out, you know, blindfold, we talk about blind followers. It's not what you said, but that's what you meant. You know, like I could be teaching only the people that are my yes men, right? And what are they learning? If you're a bad instructor and you teach methodology or information, you have an influence over people. So there's a difference between positive influence and negative influence. You can have a huge impact negatively over individuals, especially when you're the training officer, because you quite literally represent their development. So you could be out bad firefighters with bad tactics because you don't know what you're saying. So you have to understand that this comes with a huge responsibility, and with that responsibility is huge weight over that. Over that influence. You are literally in a position of influence. You have to positively impact your entire organization. So what that means is you could hate the topic, or you could not like the people in the room, or you could just Be having a bad day. And when you're up there and you're either in the field, you're on the training grounds, you're in that classroom and you're trying to give this information out to people and you're just clicking a mouse or you're just like, yeah. So anyway guys, you don't have to put your full gear on. I don't, I don't even want to be out here either. What kind of influence do you have on them? Positive or negative? And as a result, the next training session they're going to expect that same thing. It's going to be half assed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we just keep going and we talk about regress earlier. Right. So then we regress, we become complacent, we start going backwards and we, and we're up our training programs and it is completely your fault. And I hate to just sit there and blame people. Like. Yeah, there's always different levels of things that, that, that affect the outcome of something. But when you're in a position where you have an impact over others, you are in a position of influence. It is not a position of power. Your power, quote, unquote, is, is relies heavily on your responsibility to others and whether or not they accept, accept that you should have that responsibility.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you have to be a positive influence.

[B]

I mean, I'm sure you know this, Chief, is as we talk about having influence on someone, the, the psychology. Right. The statistics show how powerful negative influence is. It's like I, I don't even remember the statistic, but it's like 20 fold. Right. Doing something in minutiae of a negativity that sticks in people's mind. People remember that. People know that you could do 100 things positively, but people may or may not even remember that in comparison to that one negative thing. So I think that's important. And another thing that's important, kind of what you said, Chief, is Yeah. You as an individual say you're put on a bad training event drill, whatever it may be, and you, you being one individual or one individual training officer negatively impacts that drill. It may not be you next time delivering that drill, but people remember that that environment was negative and they might walk in there and give the future training officers a, A, an unfair chance, if you will, at this because people have that, that negative connotation of. Okay, here we go again. I remember my last experience. So yeah, positive and negative is so key in influence and understanding the position. I love how you say it in that manner. Not position of power, position of influence? Right. Wrong or indifferent. Right. There's good influence, there's bad influence. It's all influence.

[A]

Right.

[B]

How about mutual trust, Chief? That was something that we wanted to talk about. Mutual trust.

[A]

So mutual trust, man. So the question is, what is mutual trust? Before you answer it, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna give you my definition of.

[B]

It, but please, please.

[A]

It's knowing that they have your back because they know you have theirs. If you're in a position of influence, whether you're company officer in operations or in, in the training field and training division, whatever, if they don't trust you, or if they know you don't trust them to execute the task or the assignment or the instruction, it is not received. So you are wasting your time and you're wasting their time. Mutual trust is you believe they have the capabilities of doing the thing and you're going to try to give them that nudge, establish the parameters and give them the information they need to go, go forth and do it. If you only give half the information or you set them up for failure. I hated instructors that set you up for failure. Listen, I got fire service and we're going to have drills. We're going to incorporate certain different aspects that, like there's going to be a collapsible floor and I didn't tell you where it was. You know, that's for sometimes throughout the year, we're going to train on mass confidence. But if I'm always setting you up for failure, what are you learning? Learn how to fail. Right? And what, what, Furthermore, what are you walking away with? You're sitting here like, dude, I hate when we do drills. This guy is all the time just setting us up, trying to make a mockery of us, trying to set us up, make us look like idiots. You lose that mutual trust. So they're only going to do just enough to not get in trouble because you have some form of authority while you're running the training ground. Right? Right. So you have to conduct yourself in a manner that they want to learn from you because they believe you're there to develop them, that you're not there just for your best interest or to have create some entertainment, free HBO and set dudes up just to make fun of them, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So mutual trust is, is, is, is, is. It's key. It's. It's the key to success, to anything. If, if they don't believe in you or they don't believe that deep down, no matter what personal argument or some, some nuanced Stupid thing that pops up at the end of the day, they still believe you have their best interest at heart. Okay? If they don't believe that, then you lose your, Your, your complete ability to have a command presence. You, you, you lose everything. It cracks underneath you. They have no faith in you, they have no trust in you. And therefore you're. You're just a talking head.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're wasting your time, you're wasting your energy, you're wasting your breath. You're gonna die 15 minutes earlier because you wasted 15 minutes of breath. So mutual aid is very, very key. And you'll see when you don't have it. I, I say that because I, I've not, I've myself subjected myself to not having mutual trust. There were people within my lead, within my reach, within my capabilities to inspire and influence that I didn't like. Trust. And in turn, I got that reciprocated back to me, and that was my own damn fault. Even if they did something for a reason, for me not to, like, you know, have faith in them, it broke my ability to, to develop them because now they knew I didn't like them or trust them, so they in turn just reciprocated the same, the same idea, the same attitude. So it's very important, and you have to have it. You have to believe in them, and they'll believe in you.

[B]

Yeah, it kind of goes without saying. So as we continue to talk, the training officer and training, we've talked about individuality. We talked about educators, we talked about, you know, people leading the drill. We talked a lot about individuality. So what makes a good training division? I guess, like, what are some important aspects that create that division? So you have that mutual trust. Right. So that training division is in a position of positive influence and not negative influence. So what makes a division as a whole successful.

[A]

In the realm of training? Let's say you're going to run an academy. So you have to have a cadre of good instructors. So if you're running a training division, it's the same methodology. You have to have a cadre of good instructors, a cadre of good subject matter experts. So now let's tie this into leadership. Right? So I'm an officer. I'm either a company officer, I'm even a chief officer officer. And what do firefighters love the most? Firefighters love when their officer comes to them and says, you're my guy. I know you got this. I need you to do this. I need you to get so and so squared away with ground ladders, because I Know you know it. And that influence is, is done through training and through leadership. And those teams are built off of that. You have to seek out those who have capabilities, who are willing to expose and offer those capabilities. People feel there's value, there's purpose. They have validation in, in their existence, in what they perform and what they produce to the organization. But then the best way to make somebody a subject matter expert at something. So let's put it this way. You ready for this? Here's the name. So we seek out our SMEs and we have a good cadre of instructors, but then we develop those who are weak. And how do we develop? Best thing not setting up for failure is have someone teach a class on something they're not strong in and help them. Don't leave them alone. Help them. Right. The reason why I say that is I got really good at search because I got forced to have to teach search. I used to be scared of the door even as an adult. My brothers, I was the youngest four. My brothers one time turned the power off my parents house when they were supposed to be watching me. And they, they. My one brother put on a Freddy mask and had the hand and he, he grabbed me and pulled me into a closet and he put the flashlight under the Freddy mask and said no running in the halls. It freaked me out and I had PTSD over it into my adult years. And as a firefighter, you know, we can't see when we're searching a building. And that was tough for me because I was deathly afraid of the door. So how I overcame that is by teaching search. And I started to learn every angle of search and why it was important. And it's one of the things I talk about training, training program development, leadership all the time. But actually the thing that I want to say I'm good at, but the thing that I actually love, that I don't get to talk about enough is this topic. Search. I love teaching search. I love doing search. It's my favorite thing, literally. And I learned that skill and gain that confidence through being forced into teaching it because it gave me the opportunity to learn every angle, every aspect of, of what, what search meant, why it was important, how we should do it, different methodologies. And that empathy of me being scared searching through dark hallways was able, I was able to tap into those that weren't confident in searching, that I was able to actually work with them and give them that like, reassuring like hey man, like you got this right here. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which which paid off in the long run. I don't mean to sound corny, just I know it paid off because I watch firefighters be scared to, then all of a sudden, like, they got it.

[B]

Yeah, well, I, I. So now I have two questions on that, Chief. So I love that concept. So, so what you're saying is it would be important for training officers. So using the recruit academy as an example, but you can use any topic within the training division or just training in general, even at the company level, is to take on a role or take on a topic that first of all, you're not comfortable with or a topic that you're not very good at because it's going to force you to study up on it to become an SME. Because obviously you're not going to, I would hope, right? When you're going to be tasked, if you will, to train or teach something, you're not just going to walk in blind, right? You're probably going to go in there saying, oh, my gosh, I don't want to embarrass myself, so I better get up to speed. So what you're saying is that's important for. Let's use the academy. It would be important for the truckies, right? The truckee that typically teach, you know, search, vent, all that to maybe, I mean, maybe this is a little bit of a crazy concept, but teach hoes instead, right? Or, you know, whatever it may be, teaching something that you don't typically teach because it would help you develop and help you own that kind of like in what you're saying. So I guess that wasn't really a question. Obviously, the crowd can't see you nodding or, you know, agreeing that that's important. But. So let's, let's talk about.

[A]

I agree with what he just said.

[B]

There you go. I guess the question here is when you say get out there and lecture on something, is that something that you would do? You, for example, or maybe those in your department, in your training division or in your experience would go out there and do, we'll say mock lectures, right? So say, for example, myself, I'm going to be a training officer. I don't, I hate teaching X. But in three weeks, I got to teach this because I was assigned it. Will the training division. Have you seen this? Or put this into play where you'll have your training officers do mock training events, mock lectures, to make sure that in two weeks or three, they are prepared and they're not going in. Hey, good luck. I hope you do okay. But to where you are able to give feedback. That person builds confidence. So when that day comes to present, they are on point. So is that a thing? Are you suggesting that?

[A]

Absolutely. So it's not even mine. I didn't come up with it. So 1. Let me just say this. I love that you said mock. All right, so one of my best friends is a lawyer and he's passed the bar in multiple states, but he practices, he works for. He's a Connecticut state prosecutor, but he's from Jersey, but he went to Quinnipiac and stayed in Connecticut. So how they did preparation and he's now an instructor and professor for. For law school is through mock trial. Okay, so what I'm talking about is something that already exists. It's just we don't implement it enough in our. In our individual departments. And I'm talking about train the trainer. Okay. The best course to action to develop the skills is by giving them that opportunity to teach the class. And therefore not only will they develop, the. The goal is that they will develop perfectly. Okay. But more importantly, when I'm training, when some, when I'm having someone teach a class, I'm having them learn that skill and everything there is to know about that skill so they gain confidence in it. But I'm also training them on how to be a trainer, how to be an instructor, and then coupled with if you can teach a class, you can command a crew. If you can teach a drill, you can command a scene. Okay? So for me, this is this hidden agenda, holistic approach of how I'm going to develop my future up and comers for success succession planning for what my next company officers look like. So internally I have this prerequisite that you need to teach a class because I want to see you gain confidence and I want to see you uncomfortable. The reason why is because this is the controlled environment. I'm right here to rub your shoulders and tell you you're okay. So if you can do that, not only are you going to master the subject that you had to learn to teach, so you don't look like a fool up there, but you gain a level of confidence in how you deal with adversity, pushback, setbacks, and people. People is. Is where you know everything go wrong in a fire, but what really sucks is when Everybody's telling you 10 different ways on how you should command the scene. You know what I mean? Why'd you put the truck there? It should be over here. Like, I got it, bro. You know? So like you being able to have that early on controlled Mock training will set you up for success not as, not only in the aspect of, of mastering the subject or the topic at hand, but for your future aspirations of leading crews. Because you've been through this kind of stressful environment and it was controlled so that we kept you safe and able to get through.

[B]

So what you're saying is you are training people on how to train people?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, it sounds like it's, it's, it's, of course. Right. So in your department. Well, let's see. In all the departments we work for, was that the case? For example, did you see that maybe some divisions, some departments you worked for, or some departments that you saw didn't necessarily have a curriculum where they were training their people to then be able to train? For example, if you're going to go in the training division, you're going to be an academy instructor, you're going to be whatever training officer. Like, was it just, okay, good luck, I know you're good at this topic. Or, or did you see that it was common that those were people that were being trained to then be able to then train? Sounds crazy, but it's not. Doesn't sound crazy. It sounds like, well, why wouldn't we do that? But I just don't see it often, is my point. So is that a commonality? And you know, and if it's not, why isn't it?

[A]

Because people aren't listening to things like this enough and people are communicating with each other. There's no room for growth if you think everything works inside of the four walls of your firehouse or inside of the confines of your first due area. So that's why it doesn't work as the answer right there. People aren't looking for, for other information. They think they already got it figured out. And that's, that's narcissism right there. That's ego, that's arrogance. It's just, it's foolish is what it is. I feel like not knocking any place I've ever been because every place I've ever been I've made great friends, lifelong friends, lifelong brothers, sisters and, and, and camaraderie. But I will say again, it's not like I invented this. I just know it works for me because I've done it in multiple agencies and organizations and fire departments with different, in different geographical parts of the US that there's different attitudes. And it still worked. Not everything was all encompassing for everybody. Not everything was exclusive to everybody. Not everybody had the opportunity to train on everything or learn everything. And what I mean by that is like, yeah, technically we would do a drill and we would say that everybody has to train on this drill. It's mandatory, it's required. But not everybody understood the inner likings of it. Not everybody learned from it, walked away from it, developed, and nobody, for the most part had an opportunity to develop others. If we made somebody train a topic, it's because we were lazy in our planning as the training officer and we were like, oh, so and so you're gonna teach today because you're the boss on the squad company and it's a squad drill. Well, I mean that's not really. Not one. It's not fair to that person too. They're gonna resent training now because it's. It's more like a, a task and punishment at the same time. But we do it through development. You do it through corny or not. You do it through, through verbal reassurance. Like, hey, next month I want to build the training plan. I want to build a calendar. I want us to work on this. Give me some ideas and some topics. What are some things that you think we should train on and will you help me try to train on that? Who's some other dudes that you think could help us train on that? Will you do me a favor and shadow so and so so that they get better, you know, squared away and the ropes side, because you're my ropes person or you're my extrication person. Can you work with so and so and try to help them so the following month we can see if maybe they can teach a class on it so that they develop those skills. It absolutely works. It should be a requirement. Yeah, everybody should teach. From the youngest guy in the firehouse to the oldest person in a firehouse. Everybody should teach something because not only will it keep you fresh, because it'll refresh things that you already know, which is beautiful, is, you know, having that opportunity to refresh something you already know. But then furthermore, it gives you that opportunity to gain confidence in this ever evolving and dangerous ass job that we have.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

So yeah, it. People aren't doing it because they're fools and they think that inside their four walls they got to figure it out. And the people that are doing it are smart and they're developing everybody. It's an all encompassed division. It's an all encompassed department because everybody has some. Everybody's a stakeholder. Not to be, you know, play on words and use that because it's become a buzzword. But quite literally, by the Definition, every organ, every member of your organization should be a stakeholder in the training program.

[B]

Agreed. Okay. So since you, you just said that everyone in the organization should be training, right? From the youngest member of the organization to the, to the oldest member. So now let's just talk to the three groups that we have listed here. So Chief, if you were talking to a group of newer firefighters in the fire service, right, and you were going to give them a tip, something to do, they're early in the careers, you're going to give advice, what kind of advice would you give them? Because they're so early in their career for them to become strong, effective, influential training advocates, Right, because they are training officers. Right? Yes, they're a firefighter, but they're going to be training their peers. They're going to be training those that are six months behind them in the academy. They're going to be helping them develop because they have a little bit more knowledge than them, six months ahead of them. So they are going to be training, we'll say training firefighters, training advocates, if you will. What would you suggest to new firefighters what they could do to become effective training personnel?

[A]

Well, for me personally, I would let everybody know it's in, within my lead and in my reach. Everybody knows that I'm very passionate about training. So I would tell everybody that I would first start with the incentive of if you want a future in this organization, I want you to understand that we value training and we value people that are going to contribute to that training and that are going to contribute to developing others while they develop themselves. I'm going to set that right up front so they know, like if you want to get promoted here one day, you better be involved with training. But then I would also frame it in a way that new people, it's fresh, man, they're sponges, right? So they, you know, we forgot that, that, that they just learned and you know, we forgot it because so much, so many other things go on in the course of our careers. So it's like, hey, you know what you just learned six months ago when you got out of the academy, you know, I want you to pass that on our guys so that we can refresh them, get them re energized because you're coming in here all just, you know, bright eyed and ready to go. And I want everybody else to be that same passion. And then these new kids that come in here, I want you to pass that on to them. I want you to let them know your experience. Like, hey man, we had a Run. We had to do drills, we had to do pt, you know, and I failed a couple quizzes, too. And like, listen, man, I'm going to get you through it because everybody loves to know that they have a mentor, they have a big brother or big sister, but they have a support system. Not everybody's going to run to their captain or chief and be like, hey, I'm screwing up and I'm new because they're afraid of repercussion and reprimand, but they will go to one of their peers. So what's better than the new kid, right? So I would explain that to the new kid. I would frame it in that way. Like, hey, you are already in a position of influence because we just had a new group, a new class, whatever new hires come in and they're going through their onboarding and their. And they're in processing. And I want you to let them know your experience. And, and I want you to, to help us with the gaps that we may have had for you so that we don't have them for them. No.

[B]

So key and something that we may miss, right? Because newer firefighters may not sometimes look at themselves as a leader in an organization. They might not look at themselves as someone that can impact others in training, but no, that is inaccurate. They are equally right. And many times more influential, like you said, with a newer group of individuals who might not be comfortable going to a senior person or the chief officer or the company officer. So, yeah, that newer firefighter that six months a year ahead might be the most important person to that new person. So that's key. How about an emerging leader, Chief? Let's say there's a individual aspiring to be a company officer. We'll say aspiring to become a training officer. We'll say, what's something that you would say to them them to become strong, effective, influential, training people.

[A]

So my buddy Jesse Qualte reuses the. The title very much. I mean, the quote very much. But it's actually Harry S. Truman. The S didn't stand for anything. He just did it to sound sophisticated. So it's not for sophisticated.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

But, yeah, but, but Harry Truman, he said that not all readers are leaders, but all leaders are readers. Meaning that if you accomplish the opportunity to be in, in quote unquote, what would be considered a leader? That'd be reading odds are you were a reader. Okay? And in today's society, there's different types of technology and ways to get information. I'm old school in the fact that I like to have A book. I like reading books, you know, I mean, I got a whole thing of books in my office and. Yeah, yeah, exactly. There you look at that. Beautiful. I love that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I just do. I love to read. And I think that constant reading and developing on your craft and dedication to betterment is your key to success, to being a leader. We have a thing in my department, we have acting captain. So you're not a captain, but you're qualified to be in. Act in the capacity. And then in the event to save on overtime if a captain bangs out, we can have you ride the front seat. Well, before you get there, there's. There's a gamut of things you got to go through. And some of them, other than the. The technical side of it, they have reading assignments and I give them a bunch of different. A bunch, not just one. I mean, like, wow, there's like six different books with at least one or two chapters in each one of them. Books that they have to read. And they're all kinds of things between, you know, John Norman having leadership stuff to Frank Ritchie having command presence stuff to what's his name, Dave Dodson, with the art of reading buildings and the art of reading smoke, you know. Yeah. You know, just all these different things that I have people have to look at, building, construction stuff, you know, all kinds of different things that I have people have to take a look at and read about and learn about. Because you have to understand that one. One of the things that helps you out immensely as a. As a leader is when you read, you understand how to articulate words. So when you're in a leadership role in the fire service, you have to be able to talk to your crews, and they need to be able to understand what the hell you're talking about, what you're telling them to do. Furthermore, you're subject to talking on a radio. You got to make sure that sounds right and the information is articulated and clear. And then you're subject to having to do an interview or sadly and unfortunately and hopefully not, you could be court ordered to have to, you know, sit there and testify on something. Right. We're also responsible for doing reports. And if it's a career side, you're responsible for having to do evaluations and appraisals for people's performance. So you should read, not just read, to understand vocabulary and be able to articulate words. But the information that's in these books is very important. So even if you disagree with it, that generates an idea in your brain that you're Able to reference your experience on why you disagree with what you read, which you're developing that way. Right.

[B]

Development.

[A]

So, you know, Truman was 100 spot on. You know, just because you read doesn't mean you should lead. But every leader should be a reader. I think that the key to success, to becoming an effective company officer and then one day being in some management managerial position, like a chief officer position, is a person who reads. A person who enjoys constant development, learning from different ideas on how everything works. You know, like not to drag on about this, but love it. I don't know if it's one of your questions because I know you had something about the quotes, but I'll just say one of the things and we can elaborate more on the quote later if you haven't.

[B]

I do.

[A]

But one of the things that's the most important thing about Einstein is Einstein was not a genius. He wasn't. Right. Everybody thinks he was, but he wasn't. Einstein liked to look at everything from every angle. He liked to just know why things were what they were. If you want to be an effective leader, you should read a bunch of different ways to lead and to be a human and how to deal with people. And not just that, but building construction science. Different. Different things. I mean, I have a ton of books that have nothing to do with the fire service that have helped me immensely in my capabilities of dealing with people both professionally and personally.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

You know, you should absolutely read. And the sky's the limit. There's no end. You shouldn't just have one genre of what you like to read. There's stuff obviously you like more than other things.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But you should always be looking to read and be in constant willingness to develop.

[B]

Absolutely. I mean, I mean, arguably. Not even just arguably. Right. Like leaders should be reading leadership books in and out of the fire service talk specifically. Right. It need not be just 10 books and fire service leadership and the fire service. Now I'm a great leader. It's read those and those that just have to do with human interaction with psychology, with, you know, all their philosophies on leadership, because that's going to make you well rounded. Because at the end of the day, leadership is about leading the people. And people all come from all walks of life, different ways of learning and teaching and dealing with all kinds of issues and so on and so forth. So two things, Chief. You said something that I never heard before. Well, not something I never heard before, but something I rarely hear in the fire service. You said you give out reading assignments to Acting captains. So we'll just say reading assignments for those too. So you can. For obvious reasons, so they can develop, so they can become better. And these are. I hate to use this word, but these are required assignments. Right. More or less for them. You know, you got to read this. This is going to help you. I mean, that's how. How effective is that?

[A]

At first, when I introduced it, it was. There were already actors there that didn't have to do that. They're like, oh, well, you know, that's stupid. I didn't have to do that. So why is he making you read? You know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I didn't know we were scholars here. And in my most kind of condescending, but Jersey way, I was like, well, that's why you're never going to officially be promoted and you're just always be an actor because you didn't think that that was important. That was my response publicly. So that they all just knew there's a new sheriff in town. And this is what I. This is what I value. And I expect you to value it too, if you want to be a leader under. Under my watch and in this organization. Yeah. So the message, whether it hit waves or not, it was loud and clear. And then the now it's a very reciprocated thing. I got kids that they never read, other than just whatever was stupid that they had to do in school to get to where, you know, they were at. And I got kids that are like, oh, you know, like, hey, do you mind if I read? Like, if can I have that? Because I would, like, you know, they're my books, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I would like 0 Xerox copies of the chapters or the pages I wanted them to read and hand them out if there was two or three of them going through it at the same time. Yeah. I only got one book, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, like, I would get guys to come back to me like, hey, do you mind if I read that whole book? It seemed pretty interesting. And that's like, God, there you go. We're winning.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I gave him one chapter. He wants to read 13 chapters. This is awesome.

[B]

That is. I mean, I know.

[A]

It does work.

[B]

It does work. It does work. I mean, it's obviously a cultural shift. Right. Because, like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

For example, my organization, we don't have reading assignments, you know, And I. I just wonder the day the fire service where, you know, developing and reading leadership philosophy and psychology and human interaction and, you know, development of each other and teaching is. Is becomes the norm or requirement in the fire service. Imagine that. Fire service that year. Yeah, exactly. So before we get to chief officer, let's just go right back up because you mentioned books.

[A]

Books.

[B]

We've been talking about books last 10 minutes. I never say one because even though it says one, but it's. I always say, can I get two? Can I get five? So how about three books, chief? Three. Three of your most favorite books. Something that you would hope that the listeners pick up and buy or read. What are two or three books you'd recommend?

[A]

So? Well, the John Maxwell book. The. The 26 critical lessons every leader should Know. That's. That's not a fire service book, right? So John Maxwell. Anybody doesn't know him, lives under a rock or. You're just not trying to be a leader, right? So, like, I'm not saying he's the end all be all right, but there's things that that dude covers that I'm like, are you sure you were never a firefighter? You know, I like Max, so I would say his for sure. And then I just want to touch on one thing.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Number four of his 26 is the most important. That's the one that resonated with me the most. They're all applicable and they all work and they're. And they all will change over, over your tenure as a leader. But, but the one that stuck with me the most since I bought the book years ago. It's probably 10 years since I had it. I think I got it in like 2014. Number four was. It was. I don't remember the exact title because I have the book in front of me, but it's basically learning from your mistakes. Okay, so your mistakes both as an up and comer, but then as a leader, what didn't work so that you can readjust gears, right? It's like, you know, if you're stuck in the mud and you keep going a high gear and you're just spinning the tires. Well, change gears, bro. You know, like, you might be able to get out instead of digging yourself in a deeper hole. So I really. That always resonated with me as far as the learn from your mistakes thing. Not because he's my friend and not because I'm trying to plug his book. So Frank Ritchie has command presence. It's a great book. Frank is very opinionated on his, on his, his right wing views politically, which, which, which, whatever. But they, they may, it may be why publicly not everybody suggests his book. The book is not full of that stuff. It's a great book. Frank is One of my dear friends. And that book is a very developmental book and it's actually one of, one of. It's one of the assignments I have for my up and comers. It's, it's great, it's great information. He's got a ton of information. The nice thing, the unique thing about Frank on a career side, as if you're trying to be a leader, is Frank retired as a battalion chief in a management position out of the city of New Haven, Connecticut. He was also the union president in his IFF local. So he gives nuggets from both sides, sides of the table, which is really valuable when dealing with labor unions from a management perspective. It's a very, very influential and educational book for, For a leader to, to take from.

[B]

That's command presence. Frank. Richie.

[A]

Yes. R I, C, C I. So it's like, oh, okay, Christina. Richie. But Richie. But his is pronounced Richie. You know, whatever.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then. Yeah, thank you. And then Chris Browski's got his new book out. Anything Chris writes. So like that's the thing. So like, obviously, you know, I know the 101 steps to improve your capabilities to be getting promoted. Because I contributed to it. You know, I wrote a spot.

[B]

But yep. In his, uh, in his show, when he was on the show, we talked about that book specifically because that's one of my favorite books. But.

[A]

Yes, well, so that's what I'm saying. So like, you know, that book is very. So most of Steve's career has been on a career side, but it's very applicable because he doesn't just teach how to ace your promotion exam, even though that's what they titled it. Right. Because that's just what they do. Because it's a grabber and that's okay.

[B]

It'll tell, it'll sell.

[A]

Right, Right. But it's not, it's. It's, it's. It's how to get promoted and then what to do once you put on the Bugles. I think that his book, there's. There's tons out there. The list goes on and on. But I would say a new up and coming leader or person aspiring to lead should definitely grab Pris Broski's 101 tips book. Frank Ritchie's command presence book. Certainly anything John Maxwell. But the one that worked for me was the 26 Critical Lessons for any leader. But Pride and Ownership's a great book to make you love the. The importance of why you know, what we do is great. Five Alarm Leadership is great. First in, last out. Great. John Norman's book Working with Giants is the most underrated John Norman book ever. It is an amazing book. John Norman, Working with Giants. It's a phenomenal book. Phenomenal book. You know, Step up and Lead by Frank Viscuso, you know, another great leadership book. Just, it really talks to you, touches you, you know, teaches that. And I'm not saying it's. The guy's my friend. And Jesse Kunalti is another one who wrote a book that it teaches you all the human resource side and, and the sociology side of being a leader. And that book is called Rescue Me. And it's by Jesse Quinaulti. And it's another underrated book that I think a lot more people should know about, because on the human resources side, there's nothing that compares to it.

[B]

Boom. That's going to be at the top of my list. Wow. Because we don't. We don't. We don't see that often. Right? We don't. I, first of all, I've never heard of that one. That's shame on me. But, you know, you. You get a topic that we should all learn more about.

[A]

Right?

[B]

There's a. Not to say that there's better books than others, because there are. But you can find 20 good books on tactics, right. You can find six good books on building construction. You can find five good books on artificial. You're not going to find too many books on the hue HR side. And it's not as sexy like using the words you said earlier. It's like, it's not going to grab you.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We're gonna talk hr. We're gonna talk with human development. We're talking about communicating better with each other. Like, that's not going to grab people. Well, there you go. It's going to be going to be that much more important for you to pick up Justin Canalti. Rescue me. All right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. We have yet to touch on the chief officers. Chief. So in terms of being strong, effective, ongoing, influential training officers, what do chief officers do to continue that?

[A]

Forget where he came from. I don't want to talk bad about chiefs. I had. I never wanted to be the chief. And I know people say that they're lying. They say that to sound humble, but they don't really mean it. They want to be chief. I didn't want to be chief until about three years ago. And. And then I knew I wanted to be chief and my chief at the time, there was things that professionally we disagreed on, but. But he kept floating what my future was going to look like, and he was always saying, like, we're not going to retire as a training chief, you know, and I can retire doing, just, not just doing operations. He kept saying that, you know, and I didn't know he was leaving. You know, he was trying to leave, you know, he was, he was getting ready to transfer out to a different place and then he was going to retire to get his high three for his retirement. I was just going to help with his, you know, what his benefits were going to look like and everything. But, you know, there was conversations that we had and, and for certain reasons I'm not going to share just because, you know, there's people that still work there and everything like that. But essentially he put it in, in, in a way that really resonated with me and it was like, who do I want to work for? Post his departure, and we had made great strides and great directional changes that were improvements to the organization and the culture and not being arrogant. But I had this fear of what it looked like if either someone else or someone from somewhere else, what they could do to that momentum that we, we were, we were building. And I had just manifested to myself and I prayed and I believed that I was just, I, I needed to, I needed to get into that spot so we can continue to drive it from the team side. So that being said, it's easy for me to say I didn't forget where I came from because I don't want to sound like a jerk off when I say this, but like, for me, being the chief was a sacrifice. I hate being the chief. I don't mean that to be shitty. I love my team, I love my guys. There's just bureaucracy that when you're a professional fire chief and you're in the federal side, there's levels that you're not running a fire department as much as you would like to be that. Let me tell you something. Running the fire department is the easiest thing in the world, man, compared to the other you got to deal with when you're a chief. Trust me. I'm sorry.

[B]

No, I'm listening.

[A]

This is so true, you know, I know it's so raw, but it's just so true. You know, you said the question and like, they can't see me, but you could see, like, my facial expression, like how I had this, like, physical reaction to the question. You know, it's not a hard question. It's just where I'm at mentally right now. So you gotta understand. So like, I've been. I was the acting chief for, for a while. And then I got the official promotion back in February. So I got, I was acting chief in May of 23 and then I got officially promoted in February of 24 to, to permanently be the fire chief. Right. I loved riding the front seat. I mean, guys will say, oh man, I love being in backstep. I love being in the backstop. But I love being a captain. Captain was my favorite thing in the world. And I think because that was my drive and my love. Now I love training and I love training folks and developing folks, but there was nothing better than being a captain. Nothing better than riding that front seat and having your core four group of your crew. Right? And I think that what helps me never forget where I came from and what helps me be a good training, I mean, good, good fire chief. Now chief officer was because or is because I never forgot where I came from. I loved being with the guys. Now I know that there's certain separation that you have to have as you promote up and there's people that will sit there and advocate like, well, I don't eat dinner with my guys because there needs to be. If I got to write them up one day. Like, if you're already thinking you got to write them up, you're probably really shitty at this, bro. Like, I'll eat dinner with my guys all the time. In fact, I forced them to make me food like my mom, my overnight, my God, what are you making me tonight? You know what I mean?

[B]

Hey, we get hungry, right? You get hungry, right?

[A]

You know, chief's gotta eat. Nobody. No, but it's seriously like the key is never forget where you came from and understand that, that there's two certainties in life and especially it resonates with the fire service. So if you promote up to a chief position, or the chief is, there's two guarantees. You're gonna retire and you're gonna die, right? So be better than you were yesterday. But set everything up for a level of succession planning. What good are you if you're not developing your next up and comers so that they can take it even further than what you were trying to to do. If it's all about you and all about what you can hang on your love me wall, what's going to end up in your shadow box, et cetera, et cetera, you're going to, you're going to celebrate your retirement in a phone booth. And what do I mean when I say that is who's going to attend you? They don't care. They're Celebrating your departure because they're glad your ass is out the door, not because they're sad to see you leave. You have to understand that it is a we, not me thing. And I don't mean to sound corny, it just is. I always, I try to say to everybody, like, what is the. The word? The composer. So I have the symphony of guys, and I'm going to call on the French horns and the trumpets when I need them. Then I'm going to call on the string section when I need them, and then I'm going to call on percussion when I need them. My job is to know who I need to call on when and when I need to have everybody playing at the same time. So we make a masterpiece. Your job is to play that and master that. And your contribution is that we perform a symphony and a masterpiece for everybody. So the struggle is real. There's going to be times where you regret being a chief, and there's going to be times where you want to abuse your power of being a chief and be like, nah, bro, you don't. You know, I'm gonna smack you down because I get to. But that doesn't help. You set a standard. You set parameters, you enforce and hold accountability to those parameters and that standard, but you do it for the betterment of everybody. You know, I treat being the chief like everybody is. Is my crew. Like, I, I, in my mind, I take 30 people and I make them four. And it makes me be able to manage my crew in the whole span of control aspect that I approach things as a captain when I'm with my guys, and then when I'm doing policies, procedures, and doing out that outside the firehouse, you're like, oh, that guy's a chief. He sounds like a chief. Well, yeah, but firemen don't like to hear a chief sound like a chief. They want to hear a guy sound like a firefighter. So just don't forget where you came from. It's very hard to do, and people do it, and that's why there's so many shitty chiefs and people that fail. And I'll tell you one thing, though. If it wasn't for bad leaders, I wouldn't want to aspire to become one because I hated working for idiots. So I'm kind of thankful for them, you know?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, you said something just so key. I mean, a lot of was key in there, but for the betterment of everybody is what it was all about, right? Is are you there for yourself, you're there for Others. And like what you said is Frank Viscuso said something, he was on the show year and a half ago or so, he said something similar. You're going to be, you're going to retire. Wouldn't you want to be invited to your retirement party?

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so I guess what you're saying are you, are people invite, are celebrating because you're gone or are they celebrating wanting you there to celebrate with you?

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I mean it's, it's, that's key that goes to that positive influence. So you talked about to certain groups now as a whole, as our listeners tune in and we close today, challenge all listeners to do something.

[A]

I wouldn't challenge them to start now. I would, I would. My challenge would be to discipline yourself, to have preventative maintenance, to never lose your passion. So not, I'm not touching on this because we had discussed this offline. It's just this is, this is applicable here. So when I get new people, I, I, I let them get acclimated and then I try to have a sit down with them. And I've done this since, since I was a captain to being a training officer to be in the operations chief to now being a fire chief over the next 20 years minimum. A lot is going to happen. You're gonna lose friends, you're gonna lose out on promotions, you're gonna have a setback, you can go through a divorce, you're gonna go through a breakup. You're gonna have some kind of difference in opinion. Something's not going to go your way. And you're also gonna see a bunch of nasty that will haunt you that you try not to talk about. That's, that's the added like we only talk about while we see death and mutilation. And it's horrible, bro. This, the, the PTSD comes from all the other crap. And then we just have no room to deal with the death part of it. You know what I mean? That's gonna happen. It's guaranteed. I can't stop you from seeing it. Don't lose your passion. Remember how excited you are and were when you first got into the fire service. And then like let's say listener is a person who just got promoted. Remember how amped you were that you got the Bugles and how amp you were you got promoted. Don't lose that passion. Somebody is going, somebody's going to be your boss and they're going to tell you you're not allowed to do something. They didn't clip your wings, they just put you in A cage. Just wait. Eventually the cage gets bigger or you'll be able to fly out of it, I promise. We started the show early on where I said I didn't regress, I didn't allow myself to get tied down, set back, go backwards, etc. So my challenge and advice to anyone for preventative maintenance is to not lose your passion. Find a new way to fall in love with this every day. I love the. The name of your title of your show is called the Kitchen Table. Right? My favorite place to be is at the kitchen table during lunch with the guys while Price is Right is on. And the reason why is because there is so much. We're an HR nightmare. There's so much banter. Right. Yeah. Right there. Where so much. My wife is. Works in human resource. She always says she's a.

[B]

You're.

[A]

You're an HR nightmare. My God. But there's so. It's. It's just. It's that one hour of the day where we're kind of like, just allowed to really just cut loose. And you talk to any retired firefighter and like, you know, like, yeah, some. Oh, I miss searching hallways. I miss riding the back step. Like, whatever, bro. Like, you know, get on hifty and. And sex yourself up. The true guys, they always say that they miss the kitchen table. So where I'm going with that is, is even if it's just that hour, it could be the shittiest shift and the worst day ever and that hour. Take it in and enjoy it. Never lose your passion. It's a career and it's a lifestyle that will consume a lot of you, but you have to love a piece of it. And, And I think the easiest way to fall in love with it is at the kitchen table. It's just that, that one hour every day where you guys get to just sit there and goof with each other and, and. And. And kind of just love each other. I know it sounds so corny, man. I know it does. I'm just listening to myself saying, like.

[B]

That sounds as you see it now. Obviously, I'm the only one that could see it now, but I could see the, you know, the, the how genuine you are with that. With that. That comment, you know, the passion within itself and you talking about it is. It explains it all. And so I, I totally see what you're saying, and I appreciate that. And I see. And this is something I tell with the, like some probationary firefighters that get assigned to me is, is there's going to be some horrible times in the fire service, they have terrible experiences both with people they work with, things that they see. Maybe, you know, they get, you know, the cold shoulder on an assignment. They, you know, they get, you know, they get forgotten, not included, whatever. But then, you know, like what you said, the cage gets bigger. Eventually you'll be able to spread your wings and go. But I like to kind of what you said is, you know, I tell them, you know, try to remember the day you got the phone call from the fire chief to get hired to come work here, how excited you were, right? And so just don't forget that, you know, 10, 20, 25, 29 years on your last week here. Like, things might be not the way you aspire to be at the end, but just remember, you currently work there and you were so excited at one point. So just try to bring yourself back and then hopefully that kind of gets you out of that temporary state of frustration or whatever it may be.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Leadership challenge. Chief, we're obviously here because Prizzy, that we call him Crazy Priz. Priz. Am I allowed to call him that? Priz.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Chief Rich Borowski, challenging to be on the show, to come talk leadership. And I'm glad we had this conversation, Chief, but what a phenomenal message you shared with all of our listeners today regarding leadership, regarding training, regarding passion. All the above. So now we get to ask you to help us continue the conversation on leadership. So we continue to spread the message that the fire service needs to continue to foster and grow. Is there someone out there that you would challenge because you believe this individual would have a great message to talk leadership on the kitchen table?

[A]

Sure. So I, I have one person in mind, because that's what you want. So I'm going to say Sean Duffy, but I have a number of people that I think would be great to learn something from, from, from talking shop with you, but I'll get to that in one second. So Sean Duffy. If you don't know him, look him up. First time I met him, I thought, this looks like a modern day Buddy Holly skater. Like, if Buddy Holly grew up in the 90s, became a skater and now lived in the late 2000s or, you know, in the 2000s, this is what he would look like. Sean is the most humble dude, and my man is aces. I mean, he knows his. He knows what he's talking about. He's done it, he's seen it, he's lived it, and he is the real deal. And he is so modest. He literally is modest. I mean, I. The dude has no idea, like, how. Dude, I love the guy. I just. He just has no idea how good he is. And. And I think that that's why he's as good as he is, because he. He's. He's.

[B]

He has no idea where Sean Duffy. Where's the base out of.

[A]

So he's in Michigan now. He's actually in Ann Arbor.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. But he's originally from, I think, Florida, and then he moved up to Michigan to work up there. But great. Dude. He's super Irish. So it's spelled the Irish way. It's S E a N, just so you know. You know, There you go. C.N. with the way the Irish spell it, you know, Sean pronounced. But it's. It's spelled cn Whatever. But yeah, so just what I was saying before, just there's a number of people across my mind as. As we've been doing this. This show, and I got to give my hats off to you. Uh, tying into training and just ended it on that is just. It's just like, everything is developmental opportunity. So this conversation for me has been very developmental for just listening to you and then you generating these responses from me like that. I'm just like, you know, if somebody didn't ask, I wouldn't think. And typically, I'm not the one asking. I'm the one asking the questions, not the one answering them, you know, for my podcast.

[B]

So absolutely.

[A]

It was. It was. It was a nice experience for me. So I would say that anybody that gets an opportunity to. To be on these type of things, don't take it as a way to be famous because you're on a podcast, but as a way to really learn something about yourself. Don't, you know, don't say something because it sounds sexy. That's why I kept saying it when I was saying, I'm like, I know that sounds sexy. I actually meant it, you know, Absolutely. But truly, like, this was really good. I. I think that Sean would. Would benefit. You'll benefit from. From the conversation. You'll have a Sean. But I think anybody has this opportunity to talk about. Talk to you and talk about this kind of stuff, it's a. It's a beneficial opportunity. So I appreciate you having me, for sure.

[B]

No, well, thank you for. For accepting the challenge, and I'll reach out to Sean Duffy, gather some contact, or I'm sure I can look him up as well.

[A]

I'll get information for you.

[B]

Awesome. Well, let him know he was Leadership challenge by Chief Dave McGlynn, and we'll hopefully have them On a future episode. So how do we find Chief McGlynn? So obviously you got your book and I'm going to say here publicly, because I'll again, being vulnerable and being honest is what it's all about. I don't have the training officer, but it's at the top of my list. The training officer. Do you have what it takes? And then you also got the podcast. So for those that are into podcasting, obviously you got this new episode with, you know, with McGlynn here, but he hosts his own podcast, so there's another one for you. It's the training officer. How else do we find Chief McGlynn?

[A]

Thanks. So, I mean, obviously I'm on social media, so, you know, I have a training business, so you can check that out. I share content on there.

[B]

So it's.

[A]

It's passion in leading llc. So that's on everything social media. But then I'm on Twitter or X, whatever hell it's called now under chief underscore McLinn. M, C, G, L, Y, N, N. I'm on Facebook, Dave McGlynn. I'm on Instagram, Dave McGlynn. I'm On LinkedIn. Any of those you can find me. All jokes aside, Google me, bro. You know, you'll find me. I'll pop up somewhere. And you. I'd love to talk shop. You know, it's just, I love the opportunities, like I said earlier about the technology we have with the capabilities that we can network and connect with people. It's just. It's really beautiful. So, yeah, I mean, you can find me on there. I'll be teaching out in fdic. So if you're coming out to FDIC in April, be out there. I'm teaching. Do you have what it takes to be a training office officer? You can buy my book. It's at the firefighterbook club.com or on Amazon and it's called the Training Officer. Do you have what it takes? Or just type in the Training officer by Dave McGlynn and it'll pop up. And, and yeah, and I got the fire engineering podcast, the Training Officer, and I think I'm gonna be doing another podcast as a co host. I got suckered in the nap by Stephanie White for Firefighter Nation, where we're going to be talking about mental health, which is. It's going to be weird for me. Steph just brings the weird out of me. I mental health that we're not. We're ending the show. I'm not going down and just end it with my mental Health is very much a part of our, our thing. I don't talk about it very much. It's not a comfortable topic to talk about with me because it's something I struggle with for real and because I feel like people have used it as a opportunity, opportunity for notoriety and not for real purpose. So it's always been hard for me to discuss it because I didn't want to be typecasted into those people that are doing it for the wrong reasons. So that'll be interesting because that's going to be getting a real vulnerable, uncomfortable piece of me when I do that with her. But be on the lookout for whatever she's going to title it. But it'll be about mental health. And the fire service is going to be on Firefighter Nation podcast, but currently on Fire Engineering podcast and it's called the Training Office Officer. And yeah, come out to FDIC early bird registration. I have to plug in them on the advisory board. Sorry. Yes, early bird registration's going on right now. It's open. There's discounted rate. You can try to lock up hotel rooms that are closer to the the venue. It's closer to the convention center. It's in April, I think it's the first full week of April. And I'll be teaching probably Wednesday. Do you have what it takes to be a training officer? But go there and just take it all in. FDIC is awesome.

[B]

There you go. Well, thank you, Chief. I appreciate it and just want to personally thank you again for spending the last hour and a half with us on the show. Your message is one that we haven't had a topic that we haven't had much discussion on or about on this podcast specifically. So I always say this. I'm fortunate to have been able to sit one on one, actually. One of my friend and mentors said he's like, hey dude, you got a master class is what you're going on. You got a master class every single time you sit in front of someone because you get schooled up on whatever topic. So I certainly got schooled up quite a bit today on training as also a passion of mine. So thank you. Thank you everyone for tuning in today to the kitchen table. We truly hope you found this time valuable and we hope we've inspired you to take action, to lead and to spread the leadership conversation. Until next time, be safe, be intentional and stay curious.