B (3:44)

Agreed, I agree. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's that. And we'll dive into that too. It's. We joke around and it's not even a joke, is, I hate to say the easy part of the job because that's. That's not. That's not entirely accurate. But when you're going to an EMS call, when you're going to a cardiac arrest, like, everyone knows their roles, their jobs, exactly what they need to do. Xyz, abc. But you're right, it's the human element. It's the, the, the. The social skills. It's the human interaction of the job of interacting with each other. The different personalities, the different, you know, ways of learning and interacting is the challenging ways of handling. Not handling the job, but navigating. Because everyone's different. Everyone's got a different style. What might have worked for 15 years might not work in the future with the future generation. So it's, It's. You're. You're totally right. And we're going to get into a lot of that dynamic as we talk. Leadership, mentorship and all the above. So first and foremost, thank you for accepting the leadership challenge, because that's how we're here today. And I look forward to this conversation. But before we just dive into talking leadership, would you mind sharing a little bit about Division Chief David Stone before we jump into the conversation?

A (4:54)

Sure. You know, a part of my story may sound familiar. Me and my brother, obviously, I walked the same path that he did just 10 years later. So interestingly enough, when we. We were growing up, our dad was a fire chief in a local department, and parents got divorced at an early age. And when I was a kid, I would go stay with him on the weekends. My brother was a little bit older, and he just, you know, would go do his thing. So the interesting thing, but the difference between us is when I was a kid, man, I grew up going to fires with my dad. He was a operations chief, and he would ask me at like, 10, 11, 12 years old, hey, do you want to go, you know, to this fire? And I'm staying with him on the weekend. I'm like, of course. What kid wouldn't want to get into, you know, a 1989 Caprice classic with a huge light bar on the top and speed through traffic and then go watch guys go to work, man. So I have a really fond memories of those fires going, you know, as a kid and being exposed to that. But interestingly enough, as I aged up and my brother also aged up, my brother was initially distant and I was close. I drifted into another, you know, you know, way of life or whatever. And my brother basically rounded right into the fire service at 19. So until I chose to grow up, I went a different route. Even though we live on the Gulf, which is a huge lake, and I get it, it's a big lake, we have grown up pretty big. And I make the joke about California earlier, really, because everything that we have ever done in life revolves around the water and the beach and just the. That culture. And so, you know, I went headlong into that, got into music and sort of thing and then just didn't have I volunteer for a little bit. And I was like, yeah, this job is not for me. And I hung her right, and just did my thing. Fast forward to meeting my wife. And then me and her talked about, like, you know, what are we going to do? And we had our plan, and she was going to be a nurse. And I said, okay, well, I'll do something. My brother said, just go to EMT school, man. It's a semester, right? It's a semester in college. Go get your emt. You can ride an ambulance, you can put her through college and then finish whatever it is you're going to do. And that was. That was the direction I was going. Got a job. In fact, a funny story where I'm working now in South Walton Fire District. They took over EMS back in 99. Well, I was working down at the bottom at this. In this area on an ambulance. And when they took over the ambulance service, I didn't have my fire standards. I lost a job because they acquired the EMS system. So. Which was great, you know, like, where I work now is really nice area and one of the few larger growing departments for this area. We don't have a lot of big urban departments, so we're rapidly growing here. Anyways, I lost a job because of that. At the same time, I got. I got married around just before I lost that job and right after I lost the job. Lost the job, meaning I went to part time and it wasn't consistent. My wife was like, oh, hey, by the way, you know, our oldest daughter's on the way. I'm pregnant. So at the time, I remember distinctly hanging out with my dad and my brother at the time, he's like, listen, man, you need to get a real job, Go get your fire standards, be a fireman, get off the ambulance, whatever, whatever. Because I didn't mind it. I liked it riding a box, you know. And so anyways, I remember sitting in a drive through where my dad lives out towards Navarre, where I live now, which is west of here almost to Pensacola. And yeah, man, we were at McDonald's going through the drive thru and I was telling him my flight and I'm like, man, I don't know what to do, blah, blah, blah. And he's kind of hands off, you know, and he essentially looked at me and he said, it's time for you to think of someone other than yourself. You know, you no longer have yourself to take care of. You have another human being that's coming into your life that you need to have set up and be responsible for in a wife and a family. So basically, stop being a dumbass and go to fire academy is what he tell me. You know, it's like, all right, you know, okay, I get the picture. But, you know, I resisted for a long time getting into the job, believe it or not, because I didn't think I could do it. In my mind, I always saw it as my brother's job or my dad's job, and then being a little bit vulnerable here, I. I didn't like heights. I still don't like heights. I don't like small spaces. I still don't like small spaces. But those things prevented me from thinking that I could do it.

B (9:45)

Yeah.

A (9:46)

And, and how many times, whether it's. It's someone who's had a word or two said to him, hey, man, you can't do it. You're not this, you're not that, you can't do it. Or maybe you're in a part of the community. You, firefightings was just never you thought of that as a job or an opportunity until someone says, man, no, you can do it. It's, you know, it. It's not that difficult. So, long story short, that's how I kind of came into the business. And then it was, it was immediately I just kind of found my calling. Right. I think a lot of us, you know, you wouldn't be here talking to some stranger if you didn't have a passion and a calling to this job. And I'm not being over dramatic, it's just that's the connection for me. Um, so now 23 years later, I still love it, man. I still love the job. I mean has its moments, right. I don't love it every day but for the most part, man, we are blessed. Are we not?

B (10:39)

Absolutely.

A (10:40)

Like to like to go to work. Like I don't mind coming, even coming. Today's huge transition for me in the last year. Going to days.

B (10:48)

Yeah.

A (10:48)

But you know, I'm older now. I'm 49. I'm not a kid. I think I could do things that I can't, you know.

B (10:55)

Yeah.

A (10:55)

Stuff hurts longer. So this is a natural progression. But I still get to be connected to the. A job that I love, that I feel a deeper purpose in that so called calling. I think it's calling. I think it's by God's design. Even though I didn't pick it. Yeah, he picked me for it. Such as a time is now to do some things, you know. And so anyways, I love all that. To say that the, the last 23 years have kind of, kind of been a blur, man. Yeah, it's been amazing. Yeah. Supporting my family, hustling a couple extra jobs and then fitting in where I could learn along the way. And now that I look back, I'm like where I came in from 99 till now, man. It was really pivotal when it comes to conferences, technology, information sharing and that sort of thing.

B (11:46)

Yeah.

A (11:46)

Ramped up fast and it is continuing to just.

B (11:49)

Yes. Take off.

A (11:51)

It's like a rocket ship. It's like a fire hose, pun intended of information, isn't it? Yeah, it's absolutely what works and doesn't.

B (11:59)

Yep.

A (11:59)

And kind of go my journey, man. And still love the job, still love my family.

B (12:05)

Yeah.

A (12:05)

Still love to surf as much as I can on a giant lake.

B (12:08)

Yeah.

A (12:08)

You know, there you go. And enjoy life.

B (12:10)

I love it. That's what it's all about. That's what it's all about. So you're the division chief of training. Correct. So you left your previous position as a battalion chief, a shift battalion chief, was it?

A (12:20)

Yeah.

B (12:21)

And Division 2. So out of curiosity, I spent multiple stints in the training division and I. I love training and I love the training division. Love everything about it. Just out of curiosity, how did you get into the. The chief of training role? Being that your battalion chief, new department chief of training, Was it training a just a complete passion of yours or.

A (12:41)

Yeah, I Think I come by it naturally. My brother was always part of it. So of course I tagged along on a lot of stuff. Right. I tagged along on a lot of hands on training. Me and my brother were pretty involved with Kurt Isaacson's efforts early on and in our region. And more opportunity that came about, you know, with my brother, he just like, hey man, you want to go along? I'm like, yeah. So that was probably the initial connection. And then secondarily, I think as I've gotten older and I realize this is a battalion because you're backed away from the action. Right. You're not the one doing the thing. I find a huge satisfaction and watching people get better and perform at a high level. Like, man, when. When stuff connects and the job goes right and you know, it's based off what the guys have did in training. Yeah, it's. It's an exhilarating feeling.

B (13:38)

It is.

A (13:38)

And so I think, I think that's a big part of it. And I'm always just. I wouldn't consider myself a teacher, but I've always communicated in different ways and small groups a little better than big groups.

B (13:50)

Yeah.

A (13:50)

Although I feel like now I'm getting a little better at communicating large groups probably because of experience and small groups, and I'm still figuring out my path. But yeah, this opportunity came about. I. I trained a lot in this area. In fact, we just finished up. Me and my brother kind of just do this as a hobby. This 850-fireman thing here, which is a regional affiliation. I don't even know what you would call it, but it's not a company, it's not a group. It's just brotherhood. Right. So we've established that for our region many years ago, and we just did our first, hopefully annual give back type of thing. And so the point is, like, it's always revolved around that and now we're able to give back. I go 22 years in my current department, this fire district, never advertised from the outside, hardly ever. And they advertise for this position. And I was like, well, I'm three years from a 25 year pension and I should look at that. Long story short, I did for a host of other reasons that just whatever doesn't need to be talked about. I looked into it and frankly talked to my wife about it. Man, we're people of faith. We prayed about it. And I was just kind of like, listen, if doors open, I'm gonna walk through. If they close, I'm in a great spot. I love my job. Love the people I worked in, the city I grew up in. Long story short, doors open and I just kept going forward, man.

B (15:19)

Yeah.

A (15:19)

And it's been really great. It's been very energizing here.

B (15:23)

Right. Let me.

A (15:24)

Different context than I worked in.

B (15:26)

Yeah, I wanna, I wanna lead on that a little bit because I want to talk mentorship. Because you talked about your brother multiple times. I know off, offline here. We talked about kind of that informal, informal mentorship from individuals that you have close connections with and even individuals that you're not necessarily face to face connected with. But before we get there, let's lean on opportunity a little bit because we've talked about that on the show. We've talked about individuals stepping out and not knowing what's out there, but they saw an opportunity and they said, you know what? This, I don't know if I want to do this, but then I'm going to go ahead and say that more often than not. Not just more often than not, I'm going to go and say, a vast majority, if not all of every individual said because of that uncertainty, they wouldn't have taken anything back because of what happened at the end, all the benefits, what became of it at the end. So can you talk about that for yourself as the listeners tune in about opportunity and, you know, hesitant decision making on career path or whatever, about why it worked for you and how you can encourage others to kind of step out there, take, you know, when that door opens, consider it.

A (16:33)

Yeah, man, it's. I'm still going through it. I mean, if we're honest, like, sure. I'm just over a year in this organization now. It's not like crazy far away from me. I knew a lot of the people here is a great organization, great reputation. So it wasn't like I was leaving here to go to an another state to work with strangers. It was very much like one family to another. So it wasn't a huge hurdle. But at the end of the day, when you do anything over 20 years straight in a town that you grew up riding bicycles on the streets and you know, everybody does something foreign, that's pretty intimidating. But at the end of the day, like Chief Thompson says, I think you could apply this to your life like you would like. He applies it to planning and stuff inside the job at Colony where he's at the. What he says is you start with the end in mind. Right? Start with the end in mind. And so when I got to this opportunity, I said, well, what is my end game here? I do not have any other skill sets that make money, right. I play a little music, I can ride a surfboard, that I ain't going to pay my bills. All I've ever known is this or like restaurant work, man. And so let me also back up to. I never chased a promotion. And this, this one's included. It was just opportunity to have a wider influence, a wider positive influence. And I wanted a positive influence because of the negative influences that I've had that almost ruined me on the job. And I said, I am not going to be that person. So, yeah, when the opportunity is put before you, if you're a single dude, no big deal, Not a whole lot of risk. But if you're a man or a woman with a family that leans on you for income, a lot of risk. That was my situation. So me and my wife work like this, you know, I don't make major decisions without her, nor does she without me. It's just how we work, you know? And at the end of the day, if I don't have peace about the decision, and I'll. And I'll say this about what peace is or it isn't, I think peace is based on what information do you have to make a step? So does it make logical sense? First, if the answer is yes and you don't have, and it's some sort of weird feeling, then there may be something deeper there that causes you to hesitate. But there is a point, right, where you got to step in faith. You don't know the end, but by all accounts, and information and wisdom that you gain from others and counseling through others. So I talk my wife, she's like, yeah, I think we should do it. And then I talk to my brother, and he's like, yeah. And then I talk to a few other people in my orbit and they say, yay or no, right? And then that's the kind of, okay, man, I got. I got to take a step. But I 100% agree with you. If you don't take that step, you don't know what the result was going to be. You could be a win or it could fail. But sometimes that failure is your conduit. A conduit in your access and your pathway to something you can never see, right?

B (19:34)

Yes.

A (19:35)

Like how many business people fail and fail and fail. And like. But in that path of failure sent them down another direction.

B (19:44)

Exactly.

A (19:45)

My fear was like, I don't have any other skill set, man. I'm just. I'm a fireman. That, that I know my lane of the Job pretty well and I have some experience. So, you know, luckily this organization took me in and had faith continue to have faith in me. It's a very encouraging environment here with servant leadership at the very top of this organization throughout to the bottom. And so that was another sort of indicator like, okay, this is the right place, I need to be going. But, you know, no one can make that decision for you. You, you gotta weigh all the options. You got to get that counseling from people around you, the different mentors.

B (20:25)

Yeah.

A (20:26)

And I think it's good to get counseling and mentorship from people close and know the details intimately and then get people from way out, like, who are not even connected, have no idea and just give them information, feed them all the pros and cons, you know, and get their feedback.

B (20:44)

And let me, let me lean on that because I love that concept. Right. Mentorship to those that know you. Mentorship from the people that you work closely with, whether it be peers, supervisor, even subordinates. Right. Family members, co workers, whoever. But then you mentioned something that I think we don't talk enough about. Anybody is mentors from far out. So can you talk about that a little bit? So when you say far out, who are you talking about in generality? But also how is that?

A (21:13)

I could say, let me. You know what, I would like to pull it up and give you the guys names.

B (21:20)

Absolutely, absolutely.

A (21:22)

I don't know if that'd be like name dropping anyways. It doesn't.

B (21:26)

No, name dropping happens all the time. So it's.

A (21:28)

So because at the end of the.

B (21:29)

Day, the, the point of this is too is, is the listeners. If it was a name drop, either by a personal colleague, a professional colleague, or somewhere out there in the business world. At the end of the day, if it's a concept or philosophy, a person where people can be like, I want to look that person up. We've met the goal of the podcast. So yeah, absolutely. It's name drop away.

A (21:48)

I'm trying to find my email and, and I didn't even think to load it up for this conversation. But it doesn't matter. I'll just tell you.

B (21:55)

Yeah.

A (21:56)

Because I've done this twice. So I reach out to the people close to me and we talk in person.

B (22:03)

Yep.

A (22:04)

Then what I've done for this job specifically, and I did it when I went to company officer for leadership advice as well, is I picked about six people and I sent them an email and I say, give me your, you know, like for the captain's position when I got promoted, give me Your top three things I need to do and top three things I need to not do.

B (22:25)

I've heard this activity.

A (22:26)

They were way outside. Like they were from, you know, like big city to four or five station. Like where I was working and I currently work.

B (22:36)

Okay.

A (22:36)

You know, urban to suburban. And interestingly enough, the theme was relatively common on it and it was somewhat common sense, most of it. But there was those little nuggets, man, those little experience driven things that I may not have heard of. And, and so when we were talking earlier, I think that's what's prevented me and my journey from any major hiccups because I've had those people. So on this job I reached out to. Who did I send? I sent email out to Kyle Ramagus asking him about training because that's the division he was in. I think I might have sent it out the brush and a couple other people.

B (23:16)

Okay.

A (23:17)

And just getting advice on this job, like what, what can you tell me? Like what, what is your advice for this endeavor? Or in the relation of taking a step. Hey, this is what I have. Like what do you, what do you think? Is this a wise move or not?

B (23:33)

Yeah.

A (23:34)

And you'll be surprised. People don't hold back on information they want to tell you. And me. Well, this is where I screwed up. Right. So if I could help somebody else not make the same mistake. Yep, absolutely. So yeah, there was several other guys. I couldn't find that email, but.

B (23:52)

No, that's right. But so I guess the concept here is chief. So I love this concept because I did an activity like this back in, I think it was 2019. We were in like a leadership class. It's actually in the training division and we were sitting there with our phones, like literally our phones. And the consultant there said text five people right now it was like friends, family members. I can't remember exactly who it was, but it was like it's somewhat the same concept. Like name three things that I can improve on and name three things that you appreciate about me or something like that.

A (24:16)

Interesting.

B (24:17)

And then it was very obviously self reflective because there was something like oh my God, like it made you cringe a little bit. But it was along the same concepts of what you're saying is like it's that immediate feedback or otherwise feedback that you otherwise never would have gotten. So I guess in the case of what you're saying. So we have a little action item for the listeners. It sounds like for the people listening is. Is consider reaching out to people in your department, but also consider reaching out to people that are outside your immediate fire department, Whether it be in a neighboring agency or mentors from way far away, Whether it be about a topic, self improvement, your leadership style, how you teach your mentor, whatever, and just more or less ask them, you know, what can I do to improve? Or what are your thoughts on this topic? How can I be better? Is that kind of the 100 okay.

A (25:00)

Even in direction in life? You know, like for me taking this job here, I reached out for advice to people that are not even firefighters. They're just successful business people in their own life.

B (25:11)

Yeah.

A (25:12)

I said, well, what do you think about this opportunity? You know? And they would send what they would think about it.

B (25:17)

Yeah.

A (25:18)

And then you got to weigh that and make a decision. But I've done that. When I got promoted to captain, I sent it out to a bunch of people and in fact, I'll find them and just email it to you because it's really cool stuff.

B (25:30)

That's, that's, that's, that's cool.

A (25:31)

I love it.

B (25:31)

I love it.

A (25:32)

Yeah. And it was just a lot. Really good advice for the position. You know, what to do, what not to do.

B (25:37)

Okay, so that was your qu. I was going to ask you because a majority of our listener base are company officers. We'll say company officer, training officers. And so I guess my question is, is what did you, what was your. Not to say everything included, but the, the, the generality. What was the, what was the question that you posed in your email to these individuals?

A (25:55)

When I got promoted to. I'm trying to look it up right now as I'm talking to you. When I got promoted. So here we go. I asked for, and I'll just relate it to the job I'm in right now. I don't have the question that I asked him, but I pretty much said, you know, what advice would you give me coming into the training division job? And it was Todd Edwards, Kyle Romigus. Who else? Another local chief, Ralph Everidge. Chief Talbert actually at the time, was a former chief from this department that we were friends with with. He was a mentor of mine, Salzano from down in Fort Lauderdale, Miami area. Another friend of mine over here, Joel, in Escambia County. So people from all over. And basically, what do you device do you have coming into a training division? What do we need to do and to not do?

B (26:47)

I love that. I love that.

A (26:49)

Let me look up to. I can find it right here. Basically, it was what I like to use numbers. So give me three things. Yeah, I need to Start doing and three things to not do upon promotion.

B (27:07)

Yeah.

A (27:07)

And for me that was huge.

B (27:10)

Huge. Yeah.

A (27:11)

So I looked up the wrong word. But anyhow, I'll find it throughout our conversation. Regardless, I'll send it to you.

B (27:19)

I appreciate that.

A (27:20)

You could share it out and maybe I would. Well, I will help somebody.

B (27:23)

And the concept is there. Right. So for the listeners, it's like if you're getting into a company officer role, training officer role, promoting to a battalion chief position, even a chief officer position. Right. It's like reach out to others and just be simple about it. What are some advice that you would offer? Give me three things. What are some things that in your idea, in your mind, I should avoid? And by the end of it, you send it out to five, six, seven people. You have a list of 20 to 25 things. Are you going to implement or take note of up all of them? Probably not. But there's certainly gonna be some nuggets in there that you're gonna say, never even thought of that. I'm glad I reached out kind of thing.

A (27:58)

And there's probably a lot already out there.

B (28:01)

Yeah.

A (28:02)

Online, like.

B (28:03)

Yeah, absolutely.

A (28:04)

Of people doing that. And it's funny, I think in some respects a leadership being one of them. If you come into this job and you're coming as an officer and you really, like, you don't have awareness and you suck, you know, you, you really got your head in the sand.

B (28:22)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (28:24)

Or you just don't care.

B (28:25)

Yeah, right, exactly.

A (28:27)

I, I, and maybe, maybe if you're not intimidated by the responsibility of promotion. And I always thought about, I'm leading three other souls. We had a four man staffing on my rigs. I'm leading three other souls. I'm responsible for them. If that's not a weight on your shoulder, maybe you shouldn't be in the position.

B (28:47)

If you're not at least a little, like you said, intimidated, nervous, you know that something's wrong. Right. Because yeah, at the end of the day, like I certainly come to work, like knowing every single day I'm in charge of the crew, of their safety, of their training, of their development, all the above.

A (29:02)

And that should be, that should be a weight. And I tell people this all the time. If that's a weight on your shoulders. Good. Yeah, that should be a weight on your shoulders because that is a very serious position. The officer makes or breaks people's experience on the job. You're either cultivating or you're destroying someone's passion for this job. Now, some people aren't going to ever be as passionate or excited or thrilled about the job. Because some people. It's just a job. And here's what I got to say about that. Are they meeting your company minimum standards or your department minimum standards standards? If the answer is yes, then that should be good enough.

B (29:45)

Yeah.

A (29:46)

And I had this conversation with my brother very recently when he was going through some stuff a while back with some chief officers. And he has very high expectations and his operational prowess is kind of unique, man. And it. I mean, I worked with him for years over there and adjacent to him. And, and I know that he puts a heavy weight on people, a healthy weight. But there has to be a breakover where what's good enough?

B (30:10)

Yeah.

A (30:11)

Is that good enough? And. And I'll. I'll take a step further. I don't know that I Like, I'm gonna. People, this may sound wrong. I'm not, I don't, I don't. I get the motivational aspect of the job and people posting things for attention, but this minimum standards is one step above incompetence. Kind of pisses me off. And here's why it pisses me off. My minimum standards are not that low.

B (30:36)

Yeah.

A (30:37)

It's not confidence.

B (30:38)

It's probably.

A (30:38)

So I disagree with that because standards are relative to the company. So even probably where you work, you probably have parts of the city or the area you work where like high performers, they're going to jobs like they're getting after it and then other outliers, who returns. That's the nature of the job. So if you're holding your company at a high standard, then, well, good. But at some point you got to say what's good enough.

B (31:01)

Yeah.

A (31:02)

Because if you keep pushing the weight of never achieving, kind of plateauing and cruising as a crew. Right. We start getting in people's minds to second guess what they're doing.

B (31:15)

Yeah.

A (31:15)

And then now the confidence is kind of taking a hit. And it all starts in the mind. I really believe your performance in the field starts here, practices here, and then executes in the moment. So if we're doubtful, if we're not confident to a certain extent, not arrogant, confident in our skills and abilities because we don't feel like we're up to par, that could be. That could affect the job and that could make you sour on the job. So there's a delicate balance, isn't it?

B (31:46)

I totally agree. Yeah.

A (31:47)

Motivation, and then, hey, man, we're going to up the standard, but it's not going to be impossible. I don't know where the good enough line is. Yeah, it's individualistic, I think. I think we have plenty of data on what a good standard is out there already.

B (32:02)

Oh, I agree. And it goes to the quote said by hall of Fame coach Tom Landry. He said, you encourage what you tolerate. And so to go, what you're saying is at minimum standard, minimum, that word right there gives off the connotation of very little because it's a minimum. But you're right, minimum doesn't. Doesn't literally have to mean little bit. The minimum standard could be high expectations, and that's the minimum standard. But I think what you're saying is by good leadership, by individuality of crew and whether the crew continuity or whatever, it's. It's. It's what you set for yourself and your crew that displays that, what that minimum means. And it doesn't have to mean just barely above acceptable, you know, or. Yeah. So I want to ask a question because we went back. It's going back several minutes, but I. I wrote it down, and I want to capture. So you mentioned servant leadership in your organization from the top down, and I know that was a talking point, so I want to make sure we lead on that. So when you say servant leadership from top down, what do you mean by that? So we, I guess the listeners here, and we, you know, we've heard servant leadership, we've heard the concept, the books that are out there, putting others before yourself, being selfless in the way you lead people and the way you present yourself and so forth. But when you say servant leadership from the chief down, what does that look like, for example, in your department?

A (33:18)

I think what it looks like for us here is a consideration of the people doing the job first, all the way to the lowest level. So for the fire chief here, even though he's not engaging with firefighters every day, he's ensuring that the fire chiefs and the. And the officers have what they need. Right. It's so cliche, and I know that's such a vague statement, but the example would be, hey, Chief, you know, I got an issue, you know, can I have immunity every time? And they stop what they're doing if it's not absolutely critical, and they turn and they address and they engage and they listen. Then they commit to providing a solution, and then most of the time in larger places, they'll delegate that solution out. And I understand, I'm in a small department. 5 stations, 10 apparatus we carry cover a large area, but we're a small job. And I understand, like City of Atlanta, friends that live out there. Right. It's, it's a bigger place. But what stops the individual from trying to, or addressing as much as he, he or she can and then delegating to ensure that there's follow through to those things. So here, that's exactly what it is. And it's not only demonstrated, but it's basically expected. You know, I was told by my boss, you know, you, you will serve others. And at the end of the day, if we all recall, when we came into the job, we took a job, that this job is a public servant. Yes, we are servants first. Now, I may be jumping the gun, but how we prioritize things on the job. Right. Reflect that service. So for me, obviously, I'm on the, in the training division. That's something I'm passionate about. So next to running emergencies, serving the public, it's preparing to serve the public, you know, and, and I would expect from those that I lead to put the public first every single time and do it with a smile. A lot of people don't like Brunesi. I like Bruno cd, I like Be Nice. It's the most simple, effective thing that you could do. And you know what that is based in servant leadership. The model in Phoenix early on, which is frankly the model for the entirety of the fire service, in my opinion, when it comes to customer service is the public. Serve them first and then serve each other internally. And I'll say this one last thing. When new firefighters come into the job, one thing I explained to them, as I say, okay, so you're on probation, and we get a lot of guys from other departments, guys and girls, they'll migrate here for the next step in their future and career. And here's what I'll tell them. Whether you're brand new or not, I say when you come in, you have a year of probation. Guys are going to push you, they're going to push your buttons, they are going to physically push your buttons, mentally push your buttons, and they're going to find areas and pick at it. And what they are doing is they are testing you to see if you were going to serve them well first. If you're going to serve that crew well in that station under those circumstances, that perceivably could suck. They, meaning the crew in the organization, have the confidence that at 3am in the morning, it's 26 degrees outside and a homeless person stubs their toe, calls an ambulance, that you're still going to respond with passion and compassion for these people.

B (36:47)

Yeah.

A (36:47)

And do your job that you signed up to do without complaining. I love that. You know, and. And it. At the end of the day, you know, if. If you don't fit that mold, well, maybe you don't fit the organization. Not only that, sometimes probation is tough, sometimes the. The ribbing is tough, sometimes the job is tough. And you know what I say about that? It is. You're right. And I heard it years ago, and you probably heard it too. There's a video circulating the Internet a few years ago from city of Miami Fire department training division. And they had a term on there. They had a big classroom, and this guy was giving his speech, and it was awesome. He found the board T safe. T S A F, T S A F E. And what that stood for basically, was this ain't for everybody. And he said it that blunt, and that resonated me in. In me. Because I'm like, you know what? You're right. It isn't for everybody. There's a reason I'm not flying a plane or an astronaut, even though my mommy and daddy might have told me I could go to the moon. I don't believe that. We're made for a purpose, man. And some of us are made to be firefighters, and some of us are made to be accountants. So T safe. If we build and we. We protect the part of the culture that rears tough firefighters for a tough job, empathetically, we're going to preserve those positive traditions of mental and physical toughness.

B (38:11)

Yeah.

A (38:12)

If we start peeling that layer away and we start allowing less and less and less and less. What you're going to have more of are accidents. You're going to have more incompetence. You're going to have more lack of courage and lack of bravery, which are very real things. Whether you are going into an apartment for cardiac arrest and someone pulls a gun on you or you're going to a working fire with entrapment, Both of it takes courage.

B (38:39)

Yeah.

A (38:39)

And so I'm not a hard ass, but I'm like, there's part of the job that we got to protect that a little bit. It's got to be hard. You got to earn it.

B (38:48)

Absolutely.

A (38:48)

It's got to be tough for everybody, right?

B (38:50)

Yeah. So question, Chief. So you're in the training division now, and I always lean on this concept with individuals that either come from the training division in charge of training or training officer themselves. Is fire departments. Fire. The fire service is. Is. Is. Goes without saying, there's so much training on the hard skills of the job. And I don't want to say hard skills or soft skills but you know, there, there's, it goes without saying the calls that you run and the time and the money that's put on, you know, throwing ladders and you know, incident command and those things. It goes without saying that it's there, it's present is. In your division we talked about servant leadership, we talked about emotional intelligence and I don't know if that's something that we're talking about later or something we talked offline about but is there any intentionality in, in your, in your department or even in your previous department where you are putting money behind teaching? And I didn't want to say hard skills, soft skills, but I'll say it on soft skills of the job. Like as far as company officer development. As far as chief officers for example, is there a development in their ability to express compassion, to have emotional intelligence, to be servant leaders. Did you kind of get the. Can you get what I'm saying?

A (40:03)

I think so. Maybe it's two phase, first phase. As far as what, what did, what did my department, what do other departments do for leadership specifically. It's getting better. But almost unanimously everybody I talk to, nothing.

B (40:18)

Right. Right.

A (40:19)

Self feeding type of thing.

B (40:20)

Agreed.

A (40:22)

And. But how much more like I self fed my whole career because I knew I wasn't going to get it.

B (40:27)

Yeah.

A (40:27)

But now in my current organization last week we just finished what we call ODP 1 Officer Development Program 1 for Step up officers and now we're rolling into officer Development program too. So we have some tactical strategical, that's the fun stuff. But we are hitting hard the soft skills.

B (40:46)

Oh you are. Tell me about it. I want to learn.

A (40:50)

Yep. Basically the committee that we've got together and this is brand new, we did the first iteration in this organization last year on this we all agreed sitting at the table there. Granted, I mean I, I think we're pretty normal department. We're not going to fires every single day. But you know what we're doing every single day? We're showing up to work. We're dealing with you know, lackluster personalities. We're dealing with crap that's handed down from headquarters on things that were not on the schedule and we're dealing with constant human inconveniences.

B (41:24)

Yes.

A (41:25)

So the, it's more objective in my opinion to be able to hit the tactics and strategies and I'm not simplifying the work.

B (41:33)

Right.

A (41:33)

But I'm saying we could practice for that.

B (41:35)

Yes.

A (41:35)

Like pretty easily. It's harder for me to throw a curveball to you for. And I'll ask you this. How do you deal with sarcastic and what's the word? It's sarcasm and condescension. You know, they're, they're doing what you ask. But how do you deal with that?

B (41:57)

And that's, that's, that's the question I think, that you're, you're asking literally and metaphorically and sarcastically within itself is it's because there's no training.

A (42:07)

Right.

B (42:07)

In the EMT academies, the fire academy, we're not teaching people how to deal with personalities of firefighters. Right. But that is the nature of the job each and every day, like what you're saying. And so through lived experience, through, through literal experience, through, you know, life itself, is how we gain the ability to, to be able to navigate those experiences and conversations, if you will. But sometimes they get blown up in our face. Like, it's what many people say. Like Frank Viscuso said it, I think many people said it's like there's fires, but then there's people fires. Right. And more often than not, during the day, you're fighting more people fires. But how many of our people in the stations are equipped to put out people fires? And so that's, that's kind of why I leaned on that is I'm trying to find out more on what departments are doing, because I think we're recognizing that there's people fires all the time, every day. And what are we doing to improve ourselves to, to be able to navigate those every day. And are we. And if so, how are we doing?

A (43:01)

So culture is built on what you're talking about here.

B (43:06)

Yeah, true.

A (43:08)

So there's a concept, right? Leadership is born, right? That's what they say.

B (43:12)

Yes.

A (43:13)

Leadership can be taught. And I'm like kind of both. And here's what I mean by that.

B (43:17)

I agree.

A (43:17)

If your personality is relatable, because leadership is influence, right? Earning trust. Trust is, I mean, probably the principal capital in our job. If you have, if you don't have that, you're not going to be a good officer, period. Where does trust come from? Proving yourself over and over throughout the course of a career until you're there at that point where now you're taking the helm and guys are going to trust that you're going to lead them well by serving. If you served your whole career up to it, you're going to lead them well by that. But, but the point is, if we don't get that right early on in an Expectation in a culture and a company and a crew. And really, even if you're in a department that the department doesn't see it that way, there's no reason why your company can't see it that way or where you can't see it that way. You know, it just takes a lot more effort. But yeah, departments don't seem to focus on that because I don't know that they know how to get there. And that's one of the things that we're working on right now in my organization is. So here's an example. We, we have, we give books at the end of Officer Development one. Officer Development one is Step up. So it's a lot more technical. And then we have a little. We, we introduce a book. Let me see Jason Hovman's book.

B (44:28)

Yes, I have it behind me. It's the, the copy officer book.

A (44:31)

That's it.

B (44:33)

Where is it? And it's sitting behind me. I know you're looking for yours and I've gotten. Look at mine somewhere behind me. It's. Gosh dang it. It's.

A (44:39)

Yeah.

B (44:39)

Jason Holman, earlier guest this year. I'm gonna see who could find it first, you or I. It is called There you go. No exceptions Leadership by Jason Hoboman. That's right.

A (44:50)

So this book.

B (44:51)

Yep.

A (44:52)

This book is given to everyone on OVC1.

B (44:55)

Okay.

A (44:55)

We want you to read it. It's not required, but if you really care about. Go read it. Good. Officer. This is a super good. Yeah, like very well written start.

B (45:05)

Yeah.

A (45:05)

That's not one. My other friend. What is it? John Lovato. This is. So I put a name on there to recommend and this is the guy I want to recommend for you to get with.

B (45:15)

Captain John Lovato. Got it.

A (45:17)

Fix your firehouse like a great company level leadership.

B (45:22)

Yeah.

A (45:22)

So we introduce these books to these guys and say, hey listen, we want you to take this and read it and then when you're done, we want you to pass it on to someone else. Now when they come through Officer Development 2, it's more soft skills based.

B (45:37)

Okay.

A (45:38)

It's more leadership philosophy, it's more personnel issues because Officer Development too is now that now you're promoted to an officer, you're on the list, you're going there, you're going to get there. So you're going to deal with this. So you have the tactics and strategies because you've been stepping up and you proved yourself in the street. That's over here. We're going to talk about the everyday things that mean you were talking about right now? And we're going to give you resources to deal with that. Even though we don't have all the answers, we give them a good. A principled path of best practice.

B (46:08)

Yeah.

A (46:08)

And then we also recommend another book, which I. I think I mentioned this to you. One of the books that changed me and the ones that I really push is emotional intelligence 2.0.

B (46:18)

That's right.

A (46:19)

And it's a fast, easy read. It's impacted me because it made me realize how I react to people and what were my triggers and how are related to people. What was my body language saying, what was my voice inflection saying, what were my eyes and face saying when someone said something stupid? You know, like it's really important. And if we can get guys hooked up early on, how to deal with that. Right. And then how to draw the line of being a disciplined officer, but an empathetic one at the same time. We are like, magic's working. Success.

B (46:56)

Magic is working.

A (46:57)

Yeah.

B (46:58)

I have a question, Chief, because I love this conversation. I mean, you made it so simple too. Offshore development one, you know, officer development two, you made it so simple. So two part question number one is at what point did your organization say this is what we're doing? Because I will say I asked this question quite a bit on the show and nearly 100% is we're not doing anything formally with this stuff. We recognize it's a need, but we're not doing anything formally. But then the two. The second part of this question, Chief, is what kind of feedback do your officers give the chiefs on this program?

A (47:33)

Yes. So literally as I came in the door last year, this was realized. This was one of the things that I had started at my old job. My old job was two stations, no training division. We were a two station department surrounded by mutual aid. About eight, 10 stations covered the area and three different departments. So we didn't have a training division. It was more or less hodgepodge. Now here, this is kind of a thing. That's just what I do. So coming in, they were like, hey, we are currently working on an officer development program. I said, great. I wanted to do the same thing. I wanted it to be an academy concept where you come down here to training division anywhere from three to five days and we're still working on that time frame. Then you're sent out with a taskbook. But that three to five days is going to give you the most meat and foundation we can give you to include books and resources. We have a List of drills you can work on a company level, list of books that you could read and resources you could go on the Internet to look at and enlist a lot of conversations. So that was already in play here. And really it's a matter of resourcing it, depending on where you work. That, first of all, the staff has to see that there is a need and that that's important. That's where it starts. But at the end of the day, it's a hard cycle to break when you're in an older department. And every chief is like, I never got any training. I don't need that. Yeah, well, until you put a priority on it, it's not going to be addressed. That simple. So I'm not exactly sure how to convince leadership of that other than just doing it yourself, even outside of the court. You know, the confines of maybe an organization structure, if you can. It's worth breaking rules, in my opinion, to feed people this information before they get there. But no, I. I really think a big key of it is just resourcing it. And. And I'm only a training division. I'm one right now. I'm literally closed. My application for training captain closed Friday and we're doing interviews in a couple weeks. So at least have two in my division. But that's. To me, that's. We can get a lot of work done. This is one of the main. This is one of the main things. So the officer development one and two was just split up and believe it or not, it was the local here, the union that brought up, along with the management come together and said, we need to have a couple of phases of leadership development. We think this is important. Yes, it is. The union said we want it and I was there championing it as well. And so as we speak, I'm building out these two different phases at two different journeys. In your leadership. So what happens after company officer? Well, my boss currently, right now, the ops chief, is working on a command school. And we went down to Orlando last year to the fire conference and we attended that. Took a lot of notes. I know a good amount of the guys that ran that program and said, all right, well, let's get started on that one. That's another year or two out. But there has to be something for every step. And the command school is also those soft skills. It's a huge part of it. Getting people's mind around getting off a truck.

B (50:38)

Yeah.

A (50:39)

To a car. The fact is, you're not part of the crew anymore. You have to understand that. I Don't mean that negatively. Yeah, but you're not grinding with the dudes at, you know, one in the morning, you know, call 16, whatever it may be in the suck fest because you're still fast asleep in your office.

B (50:58)

Right.

A (50:59)

As a battalion. Right.

B (51:00)

Yeah, that's. I'll go reiterate this again because again, I haven't had anyone that's been on the show that had anything formal. So I love this stuff and it's getting my ideas rolling. So do your company officers now, both the seasoned ones. I say when some that big company officers, 5, 10, 15 years, what's there? How do they receive this being that they're like, I've been a company officer for 15 years, you know, do I really need this quote unquote. I know it's a rhetorical question, you know, I know the answer to that question. But then versus even the new, you know, I'm always in the belief if it's. If you know. No, otherwise it's, it's. You're better because of it. Meaning like the new upcoming company officers, they don't. Won't know otherwise that they didn't have this or need this. They just know this is what expected. Okay, good. Give me the class. I'll go. So is it well received?

A (51:47)

Interestingly enough, we haven't done Officer Development Program 2. However, we did have guys that were promoted in the Last Officer Development 1. We did last year, the first iteration of it and the feedback was all very positive because it wasn't presented in a top down, it was presented in a peer level conversation.

B (52:07)

Okay, that's awesome.

A (52:08)

You know, and the subject matter was around. So here's an encouragement for people. Want to build the program, get a group of people together and say what were the problems you faced and how'd you deal with it? Simple as that. You want inboxes? You'll have 20 of them in like five minutes. Now we, we internally did it and then I was from the outside. Another couple people from the outside migrated this organization. So we didn't alienate interiorly. Right. We were alienating people that we know that were like main issues. But there was tons of those issues we were able to solicit conversation on. So the buy in was great because we're like, man, these are realistic topics. It's not a. Okay, so here's your thought. Hypothetical, you go to a fire at a gas station and you put it out and someone steals a candy bar. What are you gonna do? So stupid. Okay, yeah, yeah, whatever. But no, it's Real life issues that we dealt with and that we're wrong. We admitted where we did wrong and then we explained how we did right on some of those circumstances. You know, as far as support from senior membership, the officer development too, interestingly enough, my boss mentioned to me the other day, I think they're on the fence of requiring all the officers to come back through that program every year paid for it. They're not paid to come in and not be compensated, of course.

B (53:31)

Of course.

A (53:31)

But they come in and just sit in on the class.

B (53:33)

That's.

A (53:34)

And what, what I do when I have those guys in there, high performing and low performing, it doesn't matter. I'll solicit wisdom from them. I'll get their buy in by saying, hey, hey, Lou, you've been here for 20 years. What have been your experiences in this? How did you deal with that? And as soon as they feel like their opinion has value. Right. They're all in.

B (53:54)

Yeah.

A (53:55)

Because now they're sharing their experiences.

B (53:56)

Yeah. I'm going to lean on you a little more, Chief, later, about, you know, how Officer Development 2 comes out because this is, this is just, it's great stuff. I, I enjoy learning and listening to what other departments are actively doing as far as leader development and not just, you know, command officer development or tactics improvement or whatever. Like how are you, you know, building leaders, if you will. Let's jump gears a little bit because I know positive attitude is a non negotiable for you and I love that. And the reason why I want to spend some time there is because I think you and I talked offline or we emailing back and forth on how powerful a negative attitude is, meaning how hard it is to shift negativity. So the importance of making sure there's a positive attitude or environment around us because without it, everything goes downhill quick. So can you talk about why positive attitude is non negotiable to you, Chief?

A (54:53)

Yes, probably because I, I lean pessimistic naturally. And, and if everyone was honest with themselves, it's easier to complain, it's easier to be negative than it is to be positive. Especially in this current cultural climate in this country with all kinds of issues and at every corner, it's easy to just be negative about it. It takes work to be positive. But the reason it's non negotiable for me is because everything is contagious. Negativity is a little easier for people to get on board with because negativity doesn't require solutions. Think about that being negative. Zero solutions. You Just get to and get it off your. I'm just complaining. There is no solution to it. Everything sucks. The pay sucks, people sucks, leader sucks, blah, blah, blah. Easy. It's harder to be positive and it takes work. Because positive, in my opinion is directly connected to solutions. So that's one of my. I have a sign on my office. You know, don't complain unless you're coming in here with a solution one. Number two, you're willing to be a participant in that solution. So we call them idea fairies here. I don't need an idea fairy. I need a solution and I need a positive person who sees it through. It's one of the main, I think critical characteristic characteristics. I don't think I know. The main characteristic of all successful leaders are the positive mindset of can do. And I fight this every single day. Coming in, you know, I, I say to myself on the way in, I got about an hour commute into work, hour and a half on a bad day. And sometimes I'm just like, all right, I need focus today. Help me not to say that thing. So here's an example of that thing. So we were. And I don't know if any of my members listen to this, you know, they'll probably bust my chops for it. But we were. We've been every year, two months out of the year, we do live fire training. November, December, and they're straight roll up drills where certain stations will come in and we'll just throw live scenarios. So we're doing them. And when I came to this organization, my organization had triple layer. The dominant load here is a triple layer load, although the region is quickly moving away from it. So it was no surprise my old organization, I faced some resistance. But I stopped from making the change because I wasn't on the rigs. I was a battalion. Okay, come here. Triple air load, all 200ft. 200 foot is a little harder than 150 in a small area to stretch and to move around obstacles. I'm telling you this because there's a story behind it. So we come in and I'm watching crew after crew stretch because it is a short setback scenario and there's a lot of obstacles and they're doing okay. Not great, not terrible, but they're doing okay. I have been sitting on and I'm a huge believer of the bundled modified bundles that people are using. The modified Minutemans that people are using. It's just superior in every way, in my opinion. So we do these drills and then we hot wash, we do the drill hot wash. So we're doing hot washes. And one of the more wise chiefs here, he's great dude, Chief Adams, he is a master communicator, man, and a great servant leader. So he's helping me do the burns that day, and three or four times I just. I made it a point to basically say how crappy the triple air is. Not the performance, but the load. How terrible is it's terrible. Blah, blah, blah. I'm just balling it out. Well, he pulls me aside and he says, hey, man, I get it. You don't like the load. He's like, but that's what we have here now. Why don't you not focus so much on something we can't change right now, in the moment, and not speak negatively about it, because it's all we have and just focus on how we could do that better, and then maybe we can round back later and trial a different load. And it just made me kind of eat my own words, and I'm like, you know what? You're right. I said, you're right. My bad. I said, no more. You're right. That was a poor leadership move. Leaders shouldn't be really espousing that negativity on the training ground in the moment.

B (59:18)

Yeah.

A (59:18)

And it caught me right there because it was easy for me to complain in that moment instead of saying, hey, I need four guys, two, four, two against in a committee, and we're going to run trials on these new bundles and here's when we're going to do it. I hadn't taken that next step yet, but what do you think I'm going to do in 2025? It's coming. And I have high confidence that the triple is going to be completely dominated by a different load, because for 25 years here, they haven't looked at anything different. But the point is negativity.

B (59:49)

And how many times have we. Are we subject to things are the way they are? Because we've always done it that way. And it does take work to make positive change, because no change. And like what you said, I love it. I've never heard it said that way before. Is negativity requires zero solutions and zero effort. And so it's the path of least resistance, if you will. Positivity and change requires someone to step up with. With the solution. But I guess if you were to round this all out, being that this leadership podcast is positivity equals leader, negativity equals not. And so it's which one is it? So And.

A (60:30)

And we you, you're gonna vacillate. That's just, that's just the real ebb and flow of life.

B (60:35)

Yeah.

A (60:36)

You know, and I'll take it. Furthermore, if you're a leader, company officer, above, when you come in, it's poor practice to live by your emotions because you're having a bad day at home. I'm sorry, Suck it up. You're, you're the grown up here, right? As the company officer, as the chief officer, we are the parents of the crews, if you will. It's funny, I, I, I've mentioned this jokingly a couple times, but I think there may be something to it. I almost think you need to have a couple kids before you promote. Like maybe that's a prereq, man. You gotta, you gotta have toddlers, you know, not to say that all firefighters toddlers, but most.

B (61:12)

No. Yeah.

A (61:14)

We're like herding cats.

B (61:15)

Yes, exactly.

A (61:16)

We learn how to, to deal with things not going our way with opposition, people prying, trying your patience, etc. You know, I think that consistency coming in as a leader every single day, the sort of stoic. The leaders I like to work with were those stoic personalities.

B (61:35)

Yeah.

A (61:35)

Positive, but stoic, you know?

B (61:37)

Yeah.

A (61:37)

That's wisdom, man. Because they were coming in and they said, I may be going through a divorce at the house. But you know what? When I come here, this is what we have to achieve. And I gotta still play boss.

B (61:47)

Yeah.

A (61:48)

I gotta be positive, man. And I can't complain about those things that I have zero influence over.

B (61:53)

Yes.

A (61:54)

So where I came from, it was like this all with a city council and the city doesn't want to pay this. And you know, I can't control that.

B (62:01)

Yeah.

A (62:02)

I just can't. You know what? I can control how we respond to a call, how we're prepared to respond to a call, what we're going to eat for lunch and dinner, who's going to lead a workout. Like, those are the things that we control. And we're going to have the best time doing that. That was one of my first things every single year as a company officer all the way through battalion. My top three goals of the year every year. One of the three was have fun. That's it. We're gonna have fun. Whatever that looks like. We're gonna have a good time. We're gonna smile and we're gonna laugh.

B (62:31)

Yeah.

A (62:32)

You know, because it's extremely important and someone has to be the positive influence.

B (62:37)

Yeah.

A (62:38)

Right. And push that, that side of the house. There's plenty to Complain about. We gotta redirect. Okay. Okay. We got that off our chest. All right.

B (62:46)

What.

A (62:46)

What can we fix?

B (62:47)

Yeah.

A (62:47)

What can we influence today, right here, right now?

B (62:50)

My very first union coin that I got from my very first battalion chief 16 and a half years ago on the. There were three pillars on it, and one of the pillars is make sure you have fun. And so it's key. And then. And then going with another one. We had another individual on the show, whatever, six, eight months ago, and he said this. He goes, you certainly have fun. We're not here to have fun, but you should certainly strive to have fun when you're here. So it was. It's that balance. Yeah, it was good. It was good.

A (63:19)

Very true.

B (63:20)

So let's. Let's go into more action items, Chief, because I love. What can we do? We have so many great nuggets, so many things for us to. To lean on. So. And rounding out, talking to three groups of individuals. The first group will be firefighters. Second group will be company officers, and the third will be chief officers. Yeah. So regarding. And I'll just throw a few topics out there, and you could offer a to do or suggestion in any of these. But regarding whether it be officer development, whether it be about bringing positivity to the table, whether it be about mentorship, any of the above or one of the above, how can newer firefighters in the fire service continue to grow in any of those avenues?

A (63:59)

Two things. Number one, think of yourself less selfless. Think of yourself less by giving back of what you are good at, whatever level. It doesn't matter if you're brand new and you're three weeks in, you know what you can give back. Working hard and serving the crew that you're with. Maybe it's going the extra mile cleaning up a dish. Maybe it's taking care of the tools. Maybe it's, you know, making sure that your house, their house is nice and tidy, the apparatus is nice and tight. Not brown nosing, but working the extra mile. And here's the benefit. When you set that consistent behavior of servant leadership early on in your career. Working hard, giving back, when you promote up, and that's what you demand as your standard and your minimum standard. People are not surprised by it.

B (64:53)

Yeah.

A (64:54)

How many times have we promoted up? And then now staff says, hey, listen, you. You got to be up at this time. You got to do this at this time, and that at this time and a month ago, you were the guy. Screw management. You know, I ain't doing that, or you were lazy or whatever. So what have you done now? You have. Your. Your reputation's gone before you and you. And now you're having to work against the tide and re. Earn the trust that you're not a lazy, turbulence hurt or complainer or negative or whatever. So the point is, give back and give of yourself early and be consistent. And I think that's the same thing that applies to every rank above it.

B (65:37)

Yeah.

A (65:37)

You know that consistency thing I just mentioned for the company officer?

B (65:42)

Yeah.

A (65:42)

I think that's. That's how you grow. Hey, man, how can I remain positive? How can I curb my own negativity? And how can I be consistent? Every day I say the same thing. I remind the members of the mission. I work to have fun. I work to actually smile a lot. Like, literally smile. I'm conscious about my body language. I'm conscious about how I engage people, you know, getting outside of my own comfort zone for the benefit of the others. Right. Exuding confidence when I don't feel I have it.

B (66:14)

Yeah.

A (66:15)

Sometimes you got to pretend a little bit it, Right?

B (66:16)

Yeah. Yeah.

A (66:17)

How many times have you rolled up on an incident you meant, oh, yeah. I don't know what. I don't know what to do. Hey, we're gonna do something, though.

B (66:22)

Yeah.

A (66:22)

Like you fake it till you make it a little bit.

B (66:25)

Yeah.

A (66:25)

My dad had a. On his office, his chief office, this old cartoon. I remember my whole life looking at it, and I don't know why I was drawn to it, but it was basically, you know, the duck swimming in the lake, and he's kicking like crazy on the bottom, but he's all calm on the top. My dad had that, and it was some sort of saying with it. But the point is, that was the life of a chief officer. You know, hey, it's all good. Stoic. We got it. We can handle it. It's not a problem. But beneath, you're going, I don't know what.

B (66:55)

Yeah, yeah.

A (66:56)

Or maybe you're afraid. Or maybe I don't know what it is. Maybe you're insecure about some, but you just don't let it show. I don't mean to fake it. I just mean, hey, man, we got to stay consistent.

B (67:06)

Absolutely.

A (67:06)

Consistency and as an officer and an employee is going to win you dividends for your entire career.

B (67:13)

Yeah. Totally agree.

A (67:14)

In my opinion. And that's all the way up through the chief, all the way up up through the battalion level. At least that's as far as I've been, so.

B (67:21)

Yeah, well, I had a mentor years ago who said it there's fake it till you make it, but there's fake it till you become it. And that becomes more.

A (67:33)

Yeah.

B (67:33)

Yeah. It was more like. Yeah. Because if you are adamantly trying to work and become something and you're working hard at it, you're not faking it because you're. You're genuine to yourself and your development and becoming that. So the fake it till you make it is. Is. Is like you're. You're literally faking it. But if you're wanting to be better and becoming that person that you aspire to be, you're not faking anything. You just. You're just not there yet, but you will be there kind of thing. So it resonated when you said, you know, that command presence, you kind of have to fake it a little bit because. Yeah, you have to, you know, portray that. That confidence in that and, you know, in your decision making.

A (68:09)

It's funny, one of my first battalion, Cheese, and one of my brother's mentors, and he was saying this in relation to hazmat, but I kind of. I've used it throughout my career in different ways. Definitely in the human relations, he says, you know, sometimes doing nothing's an option. Think about that. That. Yeah, doing nothing's an option. Yeah, hold on.

B (68:31)

True. That's very true. Yeah.

A (68:32)

They're dead on the ground. You might want to just do nothing right now until you get more information. You. You have a triggering moment with someone that you're leading, and they are. Passive aggressive. That was the word I was looking for. Oh, that's the hardest personality. I mean, somebody else proved me wrong. That's the hardest personality. Managing the job. Passive aggressive and competent. Not competent. Capable.

B (68:53)

Yeah.

A (68:53)

So they're doing the minimum standard.

B (68:55)

They're doing everything.

A (68:56)

Passive aggressive. The whole. How do you deal with that? Pass aggressive, sarcastic attitude. Well, maybe sometimes when they push that button, doing nothing's option. Hey, you know what? Just go back to your bunk. We'll talk about this. Nick, I love that.

B (69:08)

How many times have any of us, all of us listening in today, yourself and myself, Chief, have. Have we reacted? And we'll just say sometimes overreact to something and said I should have, or I wish I didn't say anything, or I wish I would have done this instead? And it goes to, what you're saying is sometimes if we just don't react at that moment.

A (69:28)

Yes.

B (69:28)

Don't respond with a phone call, text message, or email right away. Maybe think about it overnight. Think about it for an hour first. How many times would we Be in less trouble if you will. That's something I'm working on.

A (69:38)

But I like don't respond to social media posts. That too the bear and designed to poke the bear.

B (69:46)

Yes.

A (69:47)

Whether they're videos of people droning on about something and yelling at the top of their lung or it's some provocative political post.

B (69:56)

Yeah.

A (69:57)

Just do nothing and say nothing, man. You know, think it through. And I'm saying that because ironically, the older I get, the less patience I have for things around me.

B (70:08)

I've just discovered that from the same.

A (70:11)

And what, what's terrible. So I'm just going to be honest with you is that my wife and kids probably sometimes bear the brunt of a poor reaction because I'm. I'm faking it till making it with the guys around me and I'm trying harder with them and not with my family when it really should be the other way around.

B (70:28)

Yeah.

A (70:29)

But yeah, doing nothing's an option, man. Just pull back and be quiet. Like you don't have to say something every time somebody has. Sometimes you don't even have to necessarily put in. So here's another, I think a tip for officers, mostly battalion chiefs. New battalion chiefs. When you get to the that position of a battalion and you come and you're watching people train in the companies train, you know what, Let the boss do the job. If he's running a company drill, just be quiet, man. Hold your opinions back. Don't dominate. Allow that individual to communicate. Maybe say some stuff that's not on track. You pitch into the conversation. Don't dominate.

B (71:13)

Yeah. Don't take over.

A (71:14)

I've had that happen to me so many times. I'm just like, I had an agenda, but apparently he knows it all.

B (71:21)

Yeah.

A (71:21)

It gets worse the longer you're in the seat because there's a breakover and a chief officer where you're not stretching lines, you're not force indoors, you're not doing those things. You don't hold that kind of platform anymore.

B (71:34)

Yeah.

A (71:34)

So you got to be careful how much you're preaching on doing that stuff when you haven't even rode a truck in five years. Because the conversation behind your back is going to be this. Yeah, yeah. I don't listen to him, man. While he's, while he's up there talking it from the stage. I'm doing it in the street, you know, and the guys are going to listen to the officer. So.

B (71:51)

Yeah, all right. Anything in addition to company officer, I'm just gonna stick company officer because that's my level So I want to learn a little more too. Anything else for company officer things that you would suggest they do to continue to grow in their own developments as officers, but make sure they have positive attitudes, mentorship, building emotional intelligence, or anything else.

A (72:12)

Yes. And I'll be. I'll be quick. And I actually typed it out. I love them today because I was thinking about it. So one of the tops of conversation was a favorite book, can I mention emotional intelligence 2.0? So there's a lot of talk about that right now, even in our business. A lot of talk. A lot of people will talk about it, but they know nothing about it. It's a term, but they haven't read the book or they haven't practiced it or maybe they think they practiced it and they'll tell you they I'm emotionally intelligent. All the while demonstrating what emotional intelligence is not. So instead of telling you what it is, let me give you a few things on what emotional intelligence is not. Because sometimes it's easier to identify what something isn't and avoid it than to tell you what it is and remember it.

B (72:55)

Yes, Agree.

A (72:56)

Wow.

B (72:56)

I love it.

A (72:57)

So emotional intelligence. What? What? EI is not number one. EI is not overreacting. We just talked about this. The triggering things. Identify the triggers in your life where you know as soon as they say that thing, it's going to set me off, it's going to piss me off. And when they do. Quiet.

B (73:17)

Yep.

A (73:18)

Count the two. 1,000, 1,002. That's going to calm your mind and prevent you from reacting in anger or reacting in defense. Especially as a company officer when that junior member says something to challenge what you just shared. Because here's the deal. When I came in the job, the company officer held the keys like they. Because there was no periodicals. There was vhs tapes and DVDs of stuff that didn't even really apply. So you didn't know what you know now. Now, you, me, the people we're teaching, they may have Talked to Ray McCormick last week about stretching on the sixth floor of a tenement. You know what I mean? Like, and they know the nuance of a high rise operation. And you're trying to teach that. And so they challenge you. So take two seconds. Don't emotionally overreact. Number two, indifference to emotions. Don't. So when we demonstrate, if you're passionate about something and we downplay it, we're sending a message. You're not important. I'm important. I don't know. Whatever, whatever. So and so. Yeah, I hear you triple Layer sucks, Stone. But you know, do those bundles somewhere else. Like just indifferent to someone's passion. Man, we are throwing water on, on the fire. That is something they're passionate about. Instead of taking that, giving some attention to it, maybe empowering them to do something about the thing that they perceive that needs to be changed. Don't be an idea fairy, Stone. Come up with a committee. I'll help you get to that end. I will do whatever I can as an officer to get you the, the answers to your questions. Next obviously would be selfishness. We, we talked about that. Prioritizing other others around us is going to be huge. When you are selfless. That is something that people admire and want to be like. But it's very tough to do and frankly it's a life journey. The next one would be blaming others. Man, you got to take ownership. You know, I haven't read the extreme ownership book. I've heard some other jocko stuff that's in fact for ODP 2, Officer Development Program 2. That's the book that we're going to probably give to the people coming. Emotional intelligence. And that one not as a required weed read, but you just need to read it. So we, we got to be able to own our own behaviors. Just like I did the other day with the triple air. You know what, you're right, Chief. I shouldn't have said it that way. You're right. I'm gonna, I'm not gonna be defensive about that. And that really kind of I, I think ties into being inflexible. Here's what's ha. Here, here, here's. In my opinion what happens at about the 20 year mark doesn't matter. Where you work, doesn't matter. Your level experience doesn't matter. You think that you've seen enough to where whatever you're doing is going to work always because it hasn't failed yet. Think about that.

B (76:09)

Yeah.

A (76:09)

Oh man, I've been here 20 years. There is no reason we need to use that solid bore nozzle. I've used that fog nozzle for 20 years and put fire out. So an example of that would be a guy named Dale Jenkins. Dale Jenkins is a 40 plus year captain of the Houston Fire Department. Notorious. I mean he has logged every working fire he's been to and he is like amazing. He is a huge advocate of a 35 degree fog attack. Think about that. And now I'm not saying he's inflexible about it, but that is certainly not best practice in our industry these days, is it? Right no, because we know the, the effect of introducing fine droplets, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, we have to be able to adapt and be flexible. This job is changing, and you know what? The human relations landscape is changing faster than anything. How we have to address people coming into the job, what people are sensitive and not sensitive about, what are the boundaries of the tough environment that we want to create. Mental toughness. But we don't want to alienate certain populations or biases of people because we want to win influence. Right. And not piss them off. So we got to be flexible in the culture, specifically.

B (77:23)

Yeah.

A (77:24)

You know, especially if you're in a place like, like where I. Where I work, man. Very wealthy, 90% white population, retired people. So. Right. Like, they, like, I need to be aware of that. And then as we recruit other people from different varied backgrounds, I need to be flexible on how I communicate. Right. Like in the south, as a redneck, you may make a cross joke. Well, it's not cool. Maybe it wasn't cool years ago, but it was accepted. Right. So we got to be flexible. And this is a big one. The next one's a big one for me too, is listening skills. Talked about body language. Well, what about listening? So what about listening? Listening skills are sending a message once again to people that what you have to say is not important. I can tell you there's people I communicate with on the regular and they don't listen. They already have a response in their mind before.

B (78:24)

Yep.

A (78:24)

You know, and then furthermore. What is this?

B (78:27)

Yeah, yeah. Closed off body language. Not interested.

A (78:30)

Yeah, the whole body language thing, the poor listening skills, absolutely critical to success and a company officers, your ability to listen, number one. Number two, on top of listening and, and I'm being a poor example of this in this podcast is I love this.

B (78:45)

I love this.

A (78:47)

On top of listening is practice responding and sound bites. Because people really don't want to hear everything you have to say. It's just a fact. It's a hard truth.

B (78:58)

Hard truth.

A (78:59)

Listen, God gave us two ears and one mouth for a reason. I believe it.

B (79:04)

You know, listen more, listen more.

A (79:05)

Listen twice as much as you talk. You're not that important. You're not that big of a deal. You're just not. And I don't care if you're whoever on social media, in the, in the fire service with this. I talk about this all the time, my friends. Fire fame, right? This fire famous. Cool. Well, the most famous guy in the fire department still is nothing outside of the fire department. So, you know, Check yourself a little.

B (79:28)

Yeah, love it.

A (79:30)

Down to the company officer level. And then the last two one is avoiding feedback. So we talked about feedback earlier. One of the best things that you could do. And I did this as a company officer, no, as a battalion. And I tried to push it in my organization and it never took off. And my brother's organization is the chief of now they actually do this and base promotion off of it. 360 evaluations.

B (79:54)

Yes.

A (79:54)

Get feedback on your performance. You know, like what do the NFL teams and NBA teams and you know, in my field of hobby, surfing, they analyze performance by watching game tape.

B (80:08)

Yeah.

A (80:08)

So two things. Get a camera, Put it on your helmet. Get a camera and put it in your. In your truck if you can carry them. And then do some form formal anonymous evaluation on your performance as a leader.

B (80:21)

Yeah.

A (80:21)

You will get invaluable information. I've done it in this organization and I got some great feedback and some things I needed to tweak. And I did it as a battalion. And what I did as a battalion in my old department is I had very simple. You had to keep it like five questions or less and like very easily answered. So the max time is like eight minutes to do it. Right. So I sent these questions out and I got them back and I brought my leadership on my shift into one room at one station and I said, okay, here's the feedback. This isn't pointed at anybody, even if you think it is. We're all going to consider ourselves and these statements and it was really healthy. We made some good changes. And because again, at the end of the day, we want the men and women, we're leading their life to be fun for feeling comfortable.

B (81:12)

Yeah.

A (81:13)

When you have highly satisfied workforce, you spend less money in sick time and you spend less money on vacation. People want to come to work because they feel connected to their work. And that's our job, me and you and chiefs and officers to cultivate that period. We control it. You said something earlier that reminded me this quote my brother says all the time and I hate it because it's so hard to live by. He says this what you permit, you promote.

B (81:39)

There you go.

A (81:39)

You said it in your com, in your podcast. Permit, you promote. Easier said than done. Because a lot easier said. Yeah, it's very hard. But it's true, isn't it?

B (81:50)

It is true.

A (81:50)

So true. And then, and then. Well, I guess the last one's kind of rounding back to that, that the first one is overreacting and really it's being overly Emotional.

B (82:02)

Yeah.

A (82:03)

Either way, like, you got to control your response to negativity. I mean, positivity is one thing, but there's a breakover on that too. To where you're just kind of cheesy.

B (82:13)

Yeah, yeah, okay.

A (82:16)

You know, some of the stuff on social media, I'm just like, ah, Libra. It's a bit much.

B (82:20)

Yeah, I see what you're doing.

A (82:22)

You're creating a brand of self. But yeah, yeah, come on, man.

B (82:25)

Yeah.

A (82:25)

But yeah, this, this, the overly emotional. Either way, you got to find that middle ground and strike like some consistency. And what I would say, I think the best as a chief officer is that stoic type of wisdom. Even though you may not feel old. I got a little gray now. I perceivably am older, so I gotta own that a little bit. And if you're younger, if you own the attitude of a wiser older person, even at the age of 30, 35, guys are gonna benefit from that because they're going to feel more comfortable, I think, with that because you're, you are the consistent factor of leadership day in and day out for your company. So anyways, that's my last 2 cents, kind of wrapping up my. I love that on emotional intelligence.

B (83:16)

Yeah, yeah. And that last piece that you just said, it reminded me of a guest that we had on the show earlier this year. He said, because we were talking about officer development, we're talking about formal programs, informal programs. He goes and he said these exact words. It was Battalion Chief Jared Sergey out of the East Coast. It was Virginia.

A (83:31)

I know Jared.

B (83:33)

Okay, awesome, awesome. He said this and you might know, he goes, our development program for leaders is you. Is me, is a company officer. He's like, we don't have any formal programs, but you walking around and displaying what leadership should be. And is, that's the program. And if you're a poor leader, that's your officer development program in your organization. So it resonated so well because not every department, unfortunately. And I'll say that is going to have, whether it be the budget or priority or combination of everything, of having these extensive officer development, one and twos. Right. And I'm glad some do. But if you don't, so be it. But everyone is still responsible for the leadership development themselves. So display yourself as one. So.

A (84:19)

Well, you got to be about it that term. Yeah, right. Yeah. Be about it. And I'm pulling up something that, what I call, like, it was an article I wrote a while back and I may try to rewrite it and submit it again. But basically, it's. It's like, what do you need to be right? The best thing you can do as a parent is be the example. So I have two. I have two girls. I'm gonna brag on them a little bit. They are 20. Oh, man, I hope I don't get wrong. 21 and like, almost 24. Right. They are both nurses. My oldest is an ICU nurse and she just stepped down from that because it's so intense and she just wanted to take a chill. My youngest is a labor and delivery nurse, and we homeschooled our girls and that whole bit. And they're. People ask all the time, like, well, you know, golly, how did your girls not get into trouble? Blah, blah, this environment, that. And I'm like, well, we as parents were a very transparent and authentic example of what to be and do.

B (85:21)

Yeah.

A (85:21)

How to treat people.

B (85:22)

Yeah.

A (85:22)

So as officers, it's the same thing, isn't it?

B (85:24)

It's the same thing.

A (85:25)

You gotta have. It's. It's an attitude. It is, you know, so be enthusiastic is one of the things I used to always say. Or. Or be compassionate, passionate, or be willing to change everything that we said. You got to be first.

B (85:39)

Yes.

A (85:39)

Can't demand something from people that you're not or that you're at least not making an attempt in life to do. And then when you fail, be transparent and say, hey, man, I was a real prick. I shouldn't have done that. I shouldn't have said that. I mean, that wins huge amounts of respect when leaders come back and say, man, I made a mistake. My apologies for how I said that. But in a world of type A's, it's a big ask, isn't it?

B (86:04)

It's hard. It's hard.

A (86:05)

And.

B (86:05)

But like, it's. What it said is leadership is not easy. It's not intended to be easy. It's work. It's work. We don't become leaders accidentally. The strong ones work at it each and every day. So I love that, Chief. Thank you for that. The entire list. I love the. I love the. The. This is what you got to do to be an effective leader. And. And emotional intelligence, we talk about a lot, but I think you displayed it way more extensive than we had we've had on the show. So thank you for elaborating on that because we're going to start to hear about that more. We talked about that earlier. It's like, emotional intelligence is not a new concept. It was, you know, there was books and authors writing about it. 20, 25 years ago. But it's coming to light more and I think more in the fire service over the last, we'll say five years, we'll say. So it's not. We're not going away from it. I think more and more people are going to start hearing about it. More departments are going to start implementing it in training. And so thank you for.

A (86:57)

Think about this. Generations of people are coming into the job. And my generation was probably the first one X. That is not a do what you told. You just do what you do what you told. I told you, you're a soldier. Ain't nobody soldiers now. Like, how many guys you know that are 22 years old, right. That. Just do what you told, son. Okay, so some things, yes.

B (87:20)

Yeah, sure.

A (87:20)

We go to operations. Yeah, it's my. It's my way when we're operating. But everything else, you got to be able to adjust your sales. And I'll say this one last thing about leadership. So there's a lot of concepts and leading people and figuring out who you're leading their personalities and how to communicate them. I don't, I don't. I don't think that's not bad advice. But the end of the day, I'll tell you this. It's exhausting. I don't know if you've ever tried to do that. You have four or five personalities in your firehouse and you're trying to communicate differently. No. Find out who you are first and then communicate authentically through that. Authentically using some of the EI stuff that we talked about.

B (88:00)

Yeah.

A (88:01)

That's what you have to change. You don't have to change your personality. You just change how you're communicating it. But you have to be you because you can't be anything else other than you. If you're a negative person, you're gonna have to work to change that.

B (88:14)

Yeah, yeah.

A (88:15)

You know, because that is an actual concerted effort.

B (88:18)

Yes.

A (88:18)

But everything else, like if you're ultra type A, you don't have to be that way. Don't make the excuse. Well, that's just the way I am. Well, that's just the way you are. Then you're not going to succeed. That's not the answer. The way you are got to be able to make these minor adjustments in the area of communication because bygone era man, we don't have soldiers in the fire service anymore. And you got to understand that. And if you don't believe it, taught your friends in fdny and you tell me how it's working out if they're facing the same problems we are, just different.

B (88:47)

Absolutely. Vulnerability, you know, model behavior, growth, mindset, all the above. So yeah, let's go here.

A (88:55)

Chief.

B (88:56)

My favorite part of the show, even though selfishly I say this on every part of the show, that's all. Say it here. My favorite part of the show is leadership challenge because we get to continue the conversation on leadership. It doesn't stop. We get influential leaders to share a message and then they get to say, you know what, this other individual can, can offer a message to the listeners to help grow the conversation and leadership in the fire service. So we're here because I mentioned we had your brother, Chief Shannon Stone, give a message and just a very previous episode a few weeks back. So my question, Chief, is, is there an individual out there in the fire service or any other industry that you would be willing to challenge publicly on this show for us to reach out and say and ask this individual if they'd be willing to share a message on leadership on the kitchen table?

A (89:44)

Absolutely. There's a bunch of people out there. But again, I think is a guy that's understated and he actually brings a book to the table that he's written and he lives it in every sense of the word. A good friend of mine, John Lovato from the Fires Fire Department. John is a battalion chief down there now and he is man, he is a servant leader. He is a big jiu jitsu guy, very disciplined, very fit. But he's not one of those guys that makes you feel bad because maybe I don't want to do jiu jitsu and I like donuts or whatever. Just a good all around guy. I think I showed you his book.

B (90:22)

Fixture, what's it called? Picture Firehouse. Thank you.

A (90:25)

Picture Firehouse by John Lovato. I think he self published and printed this and he used to speak quite a bit in Orlando, but he maybe have backed off last couple years. But he's got a lot of really good stuff to say, you know, and a lot of great experience to share. So I think John would be a great addition. That's awesome.

B (90:45)

That's awesome. What I'll do is I'll send an email to Battalion Chief John Lovato. Is that you say Dan, Chief?

A (90:51)

Yeah.

B (90:51)

Thank you, John Lovato. And I'll gather contact info, hopefully from you. I'll send you an email, Chief, and see if I can gather the info and let him know that he's been leadership challenged by Chief David Stone. So with that being said Chief, I I appreciate you giving the time today to speak with me for the Last hour and 40 minutes on this show before we officially close. I like to end it with this. If you're going to leave our listeners with what I call the lasting leadership thoughts, would you like to leave them with today?

A (91:22)

At the end of the day, I think be the leader you've always wanted leading you if that's the way you approached it. So it's like the treaty, others the way you want to be treated. Right. Golden rule. I think if you do those things, be the leader you've always wanted in the fire service and you did that authentically in a transparent manner, that's not going to come across as weak, that's going to come across as inspiring because you are a little bit vulnerable but also working towards an end and don't have it all figured out. That is the biggest farce in the fire service is that when you promote, you got things figured out, right? No, that's. That's where the learning has started a lot of times. Exactly. And by the time people figure it out is when they're going out the door on retirement. But now in 2024, you don't have to do that. You can be it and seek out this podcast and others books, so much information, surround yourself with good people and be the person that you wanted to come up under and you can't go wrong.

B (92:28)

Awesome. Thank you everybody for tuning in today to the kitchen table. Truly hope that you found this time valuable and we hope we've inspired you to take action, to lead and to spread the leadership conversation. Until next time, be safe, be intentional and stay curious.