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Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table
Ep. 60: Randy Bruegman, Fire Chief (ret.) - Pay it Forward & Leave it Better
01:10:23
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- [00:02]
A
Learning how to be a change manager, learning how to have those courageous conversations, learning how to really strategically position your organization for the 21st century. I think that would be very, very significant. It's about really investing in your culture. And you've got to build a culture that's going to be very, very adaptable and responsive to change in the future. But it also has got to be a culture that is built upon something different than I think we have today. The First Responder Liaison Network is proud to present to you the Kitchen Table Podcast. Join us as we explore leadership from perspectives around the globe. From firefighters to fire chiefs, civilians to CEOs, our conversations have one simple goal. Build more leaders.
- [01:11]
B
Good morning. Today is Leadership Conversation 60. The kitchen table is brought to you by the First Responder Liaison Network. The network is organized for the development, implementation and ongoing support of mentorship and professional development programs, inspiring our youth and young adults to mature into engaged civic leaders and resilient community sentinels. Our core mission is to mentor underrepresented urban and rural youth interested in public safety careers. Music and graphics are brought to you by Kyle Productions. Today's Conversation we're talking a simple concept in leadership paying it forward and leaving it better. We're also talking the importance of differentiating between being successful and being and being significant. To help us further the conversation on leadership, please follow the Kitchen Table on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or any other podcast outlet. As leaders, it is our job to help build more leaders to succession plan and to lead the fire service better tomorrow than it is today. And our guest today is the founder of the Leadership Crucible Foundation. He began his career as a firefighter and rose through the ranks to become fire chief, leading five different organizations for over 27 years. His last assignment as Fire Chief in the city of Anaheim, California marked the culmination of a 40 year career in local government. Our guest is a respected author and lecturer on leadership and managing change, having authored five books and over 50 published articles. His leadership experience, including serving as President of the International association of Fire Chiefs and President of the Board of Directors for the center for Public Safety Excellence, underscores the importance of leadership in individual development and organizational success. It is these experiences and having the honor to lead people who place their lives on the line daily, that has led to his commitment to the importance that leadership plays in developing individuals and leading organizations to be successful. It is that vision that is found and is a driving force within the Leadership Crucible Foundation. Our 60th leadership conversation is with Fire Chief Randy Brugman Good morning chief, how are you?
- [03:17]
A
Hey, good morning, how are you? It's great to be with you.
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B
So I will say I have Benjamin made to thank for this connection today. And as we talked offline, I think connections is probably the most beautiful thing in the fire service, the people you get to meet and connect with. But before we dive into this conversation on leadership, would you mind sharing a little bit about Randy Brugman, maybe your fire service career, your journey into leadership, leadership crucible and all that. And then we'll just dive into talking leadership.
- [03:44]
A
Okay. Well, I mean like, like many people, you kind of, you, you kind of fall into your passion and that's what happened with me and that's how I, I think the fire service found me. I, I really didn't find the fire service. I was growing up in Nebraska and was working in Nebraska after I graduated from high school and my brother in law said, hey, we need some help on our, he was a volunteer firef said I need, we need some help on our local community fire department. So I signed up. And then about a year, year two, I just, you know, fell in love with, you know, the aspect of the job and started to research and you know, found that people actually got paid to, to you could make a career out of this. And that's really what led me to, into the fire service. I had no vision, you know, I thought I was going to work construction and just, you know, do that the rest of my life because that's what my family did and but you know, I kind of fell into this passion. I found it and, or it found me and then I pursued it and so that's kind of, kind of how I got into it. It was by accident really and went to Fort Collins, Colorado, tested, you know, one of those tests like they are today. I mean, I think there were two days of testing, just a written test. You know, there was over, I think 12, 1500 people. Ah, yeah, those two days they were hiring eight people. I'm going, there's no way, there's no way I'm ever going to get hired. And you know, sure enough, you know, got the letter about two and a half months later and said you start on January 1st.
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B
Wow.
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A
Pretty lucky.
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B
I know.
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A
We all are.
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B
So I have to start here because I, I'm fascinated about this. My wife and I. Disneyland is our favorite place on the planet. So you were the fire chief of at Anaheim. Can you tell me just a little bit about what it was like to be the fire chief of the town and the City where people would say is the most, you know, the happiest place on the planet. Because for my wife and I, it literally is. And I'm just fascinated to hear about what it was like to serve that community.
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A
Well, you know, I feel the same way. When you walk through the gates of Disney, it's like, you know, you've entered a different world and, and all your stress goes away.
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B
Yes.
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A
We, of course, we live close enough that we would go often, go over there once a week, couple times a month, and just walk around.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Just to enjoy the atmosphere. But, you know, Anaheim's a really interesting city to be a fire chief, police chief, because it's really complex. It's not only Disney, but you've got the Angels baseball team, you've got the Anaheim Ducks, you've got the largest convention center on the West Coast. And there are some days if everything's operational, the city double doubles in population. Wow. And so there's a lot of complexity to just managing the different events. But also, as we know, from a homeland security standpoint, you know, it's, it's a high, high target venue. It's a high target city. So you have a lot of, you know, things to address and in working with not only your local officials, local elected officials, but, you know, all of the high powered folks at Disney and some of the, you know, the sports teams and then also just working with the local, state and federal agencies with homeland security issues. So it's just, I, I really love the job. It was just, it was something new every day.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
Yeah.
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B
One more curiosity question. Was there a fire station within Disney or right next to it that, you know, was the fire station that served Disneyland or what was that?
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A
Well, we actually provided the paramedic, we provided first response into Disney. But Disney has a, what? They have a Disneyland fire department.
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B
Oh, they do? I never.
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A
Yes. And they have three or 400. Most of them are part time. Many of them are retired firefighters.
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B
Oh, got it, got it.
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A
Retired chief officers, but they roll up under their security division.
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B
Oh, interesting.
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A
And they take care of the first response. They also have nurses throughout the complex. So. So we would always respond in. We had, we had four paramedics that were assigned for a specific period of time every day. They responded out. They originally were. When I went there, we were responding from the back lot.
- [08:12]
B
Got it.
- [08:14]
A
They had a double wide set up. And we talked through the logistics of that. And we actually then moved them to two separate stations because we, we felt like they could get in as fast, if not Faster into the park than going through the backlot. So. So. But yeah, I mean they do the kind of. The first response. They have limited equipment.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And so but we work very, very closely together with them.
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B
That makes sense. I guess that makes more sense than what I would have thought. I just would always intrigued about that. The dynamic and how that works.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So let's talk the leadership crucible. So I've listened to some of the podcast episodes. Benjamin Mate brought that up to me. Like I said, he and I connected a couple years ago. But talk about. Well, let's start off with this leadership crucible. And I'll quote a crisis in leadership. That's something that you have on your website. That's something that you, I think you had said. So it's a quote from you. So can you talk about what that means? What is a crisis in leadership and what really inspired the. The start of the leadership crucible. And what I would. And correct me if I'm wrong, Chief, the, the need or the will or the passion in trying to build future leaders to lead the fire service better tomorrow than it is today than it was yesterday.
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A
Yeah, well, there's kind of an interesting lead up to that to be honest. You know, when I retired, I retired at the end of 2018 and took about six, six, seven months off. And then Jones and Bartlett had called and I was just finishing up the 21st century fire and Emergency Services report. I co chaired that led that for the center for Public Safety Excellence in the International City County Managers association, which really looked at the future of the fire service and some of the critical issues that, that, that we will face and are facing already today. But at the same time then Jones and Bartlett called, said we wanted you to. Wanted, wanted me to rewrite a couple of my textbooks that I had previously written. So I got into that. So I was doing a lot of research on what was occurring on the leadership front, not only from a local but a national perspective. And then just watching as we went through Covid and watching, you know, the debacle that was occurring and just the lack of. Of information based leadership and it really drove me to this discussion with a couple of my peers, Ben May being one of them, Dave Adams, another, who used to be the, he was the founder, co founder of emergency reporting. And I was doing some work with them, doing some consulting with their, their CEO and doing some podcasting with them. And Dave reached back out after they were bought out by ESO and said hey, I think you should continue your podcast. And I said well, you know, I'd like to do that. I like doing that. But I said, I think there's a bigger mission here. I said, you know what? I'm, what I'm viewing not only through my research, but just the observations during that two to three year period. I said, we have a real leadership backing in our country. And my concern is the next generation of leaders that are coming up, like yourself, are witnessing this and saying, that's what leadership is, that's what good leadership is. And in fact, we know it's not. And so I wanted to make a difference somehow. Didn't know at the time it was going to be the leadership crucible. I mean, that, that actually took about a year of thought process with the three of us, you know, just reaching out to different people saying, what should this look like? What should we focus on? And I said, you know, there are a lot of great leaders because I've met a lot of great leaders, a lot of really poor leaders. But I said, there's a lot of great leaders out there that people never hear about.
- [12:07]
B
Agreed.
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A
I said, let's go find them and share their stories because they all have great stories and they all have great perspective and they all have a lot of experience that they could share. And if we could get that out to our younger generation.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So that they would have another, I guess, lens to look through other than social media and what they're seeing on, you know, our normal news channels. I said, I think that that's a, that's a good calling to have.
- [12:35]
B
Yeah.
- [12:35]
A
And then that kind of morphed into, well, we're going to do newsletters and then we're going to create this Pathways to Success series which we can talk a little bit about. But yeah, it just kind of, just kind of blossomed that way. And then, you know, as we started to stand up our board, I said, we need to have a very diverse board, not only in how we look, but, you know, diversity of, of experience. And I said, and they've got to be high flyers because, yeah, if we're not going to, if we're going to go anyplace, we need to have a board that's got a lot of experience and is well respected and so set, set up a board. I've got, I just brought on a 16th member here. She starts next week, her first official meeting. And I've got about 25 people on an advisory council. So we use them. The board meets once a month and the advisory council meets quarterly. And they just provide perspective.
- [13:30]
B
And so does this come in the avenue of courses, classes? How are organizations, if you will, or individuals getting a hold of some of the, whether the curriculum or perspectives and, and information that Leadership Crucible has, if you will.
- [13:49]
A
Well, the information is, is on site. Yeah, it's on our website and anybody can access it for free. And so the podcast and then our newsletters, we do a newsletter a month on a topic and so those are accessible. We're also doing kind of some unique co branding with the three chiefs associations right now where we actually take our material and co brand it for them and then they can send it out to all of their chiefs.
- [14:19]
B
Okay.
- [14:20]
A
Throughout the, or throughout their system. So you know, for example, Wisconsin is one of those and they have about 800 members. So we deliver a. Deliverable for them every month. And it's co branded with their, their, you know, their logo and their insignia and a message from their president and said, this is brought to you by the Wisconsin Fire Chiefs. Arizona's doing it, Great Lakes Division's doing it. And so that's a way that they can provide some material to their members. Co branded. Co branded. And then our suggestion to them is send it out to your stations.
- [14:58]
B
Absolutely.
- [14:59]
A
Yeah. Of course the best, some of the best dialogue in, in, in the fire service is around the coffee table.
- [15:06]
B
Yes.
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A
And I've had a lot of, I've had a lot, a lot of firefighters call me up, say I really like your podcast because of the diversity of your guests.
- [15:14]
B
Absolutely. And that's, I think that's key. Scrolling through, I listened to several episodes leading up to today actually was listening to fascinating things. One of your latest episodes, the individual that went to Duke, played for Coach K. Work for Apple.
- [15:26]
A
I think it's Google.
- [15:27]
B
Yes, exactly. I mean that was fascinating. But I think diversity is totally key because you know, leadership is not confined to the fire service. In fact, we can apply concepts, philosophies, theories, if you will, and all different aspects and apply them to the dynamics of the fire service. So a question that I have chiefly I've always, I like to ask this question on this podcast because it's the fact that there is a leadership crisis, if you will, and fire departments, I would imagine, like throughout the country, not just, you know, around here, there isn't much leadership development right. In its people, whether it be at the company, company officer level, at the firefighter level, if you will. And there is a need for leadership development in people to the point where we have to look outside. Right. We have to look at foundations, organizations to come in and bring us and teach us. So I guess my not really a question, but I guess I can understand the leadership crisis. And so we're itching for information to become better leaders. So I guess throughout your career, Chief, over the organizations that you work for, did you have leadership development programs?
- [16:35]
A
Well, I think it wasn't enough.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Every organization I led, it was not enough. I mean we really good in the fire emergency services about training for the tactical piece.
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B
Yes, agreed. Agree. 100. 100.
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A
I mean our company officer, our chief officers, I mean they're the best of the best.
- [16:57]
B
Yes.
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A
Right. You put those same people in the firehouse and tell them to lead a fire company and they really struggle with it because they don't know they've been really trained. On the tactical piece, we have not invested enough time and energy on the, on the managerial and the leadership piece you need to do as an individual. And you know, a lot of, a lot of what we have been trained to do in, in the fire service is based around passing certifications. Right. And so they check the box on all the management stuff, but they don't really delve into how to build yourself as a leader. And I think that's been one, one of the failings of our profession. But you know what, it happens in others as well. You know, if you, I think, I think one of the things I've learned as a chief and one of the investments that I didn't make enough into was to build the culture of the organizations that I led. And to, to do that you need to have good effective leadership.
- [18:01]
B
Yes.
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A
And so you've got to invest in leadership to build the culture that you want to build. And you know, I, I don't think many departments do that.
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B
Right.
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A
You know, I think, you know, we go about our day to day business, we're really focused on the response piece of it. We're not really, we're not really focused on the people piece of it.
- [18:23]
B
So a question I have, Chief. Why is that if I can exit? I mean, because we don't. It's not a, it's not new. It's not. All of a sudden we're now realizing that we need to invest in our people, invest in leadership, in our people. Because we know we do a great job, like you said. I think we all know that we do a great job in the response piece and you know, we do a great job on, you know, managing, you know, fires and emergency response. But why is it that there's not much investing going on budgetary? I'm I'm talking, like, literally budget, like X, you know, million dollars this year is going to be put to lead to developing our people to become better leaders. So why are fire departments not. And how do we get there since we know we need it?
- [19:09]
A
Well, I, you know, I. I think historically, many of our chiefs have been selected because of their operational proudness. Right.
- [19:19]
B
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
- [19:21]
A
I was, I wasn't one of those. I mean, I was. I, I rose up through the ranks of battalion chief, but I always had a vision that I was going to be a fire chief. So my, My, my, my. I guess track record wasn't really based totally on operational pieces, but most chiefs are. That's their comfort level. So you kind of go to your comfort level oftentimes, even as a leader. You know, one of the things that I think we have to do, whether we come out of the operational piece or the administrative piece or wherever we come out of, we've really got to. We've got to really get out of what we came from and really focus on where we need to go. And oftentimes we're not doing that. We go back to what's comfortable for us. And, you know, for a lot of. I think folks that have risen up through the ranks, they're real comfortable with the operational piece. They're not real comfortable with having to deal with conflict and.
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B
Yeah.
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A
In the station and having to, you know, fire people or discipline people. They don't like that.
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B
Yeah. I mean, you're right. The Fed. The comfortable piece is that because we grew up in the fire stations, obviously it, like, you know, going through the ranks, the stuff that we love to do and the love that we. Stuff to train on is exactly what you said. We love talking about fires. We love going on emergency response, and we ignore those difficult conversations and those conflicts. So is it. Would you say it's harder for leaders? We'll say this podcast is geared toward a lot of emerging leaders in the fire service. In fact, that's how it got started. But would you say it's harder for leaders, upcoming leaders, to see success or to promote through the ranks if they had the philosophy of investing in our people, investing in leadership, and less on the tactical piece, if that makes sense.
- [21:04]
A
Well, yeah, I think you. I think in our jobs, we always have to be focused on the tactical piece and always have to make sure that we've invested enough in training and equipment and all. All of the things. So because we have to keep our people safe.
- [21:17]
B
Absolutely, Absolutely.
- [21:19]
A
That's a big, big part of It. But the other piece of it is. And the reason why a lot of our organizations struggle with change is because we haven't invested on. On that cranial side, if you will, the leadership side of. Of talking about having courageous conversations, you know, building that culture where you can be adapt enough. And that's going to become even more pronounced as we move into the 21st century because the speed of change is going to rapidly impact how we do business. You know, we. Part of that 21st century report. And I'm actually, I've done several presentations on. And, you know, one of the slides that I use is, can you imagine in the next 15 years when a fire truck pulls off and four robots come off of it? I've had audiences go, that is not going to happen. I'm going, you know, let's put money on it right now.
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B
I know.
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A
All you have to do is explore the Internet a little bit and see what they're building.
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B
Yes, exactly. I saw, I walked by one the other day at the mall. What's that thing? My wife said that's a robot that Tesla's doing. I. I thought she was kidding, but yeah, it's crazy. And it's only 15, 20 years away, like he said.
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A
Yeah, yeah. I mean. And you're going to see it before you retire.
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B
That's first I saw a solvent.
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A
I mean, though, those kind of changes take real effective leadership to create a culture, to be able to adapt to that. This is going to be very similar to when they took the horses out.
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B
Yeah, that's a good point.
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A
On the fire station.
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B
Yeah.
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A
There were people that left.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Firefighter says, I can't, you know, if we're not having horses, I'm out.
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B
That's a good point.
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A
Right, because that's what they did and that's what they knew. Well, speed of which we're going to see change happen, it will be much more rapid than it did then, but it was kind of the same. Same thing.
- [23:10]
B
I have a question, Chief. It's kind of. It's going to be a challenging question, I think. Maybe, maybe not. But what would the fire service look like if starting tomorrow. And I'm just going to come up with some arbitrary number just to paint a picture. But starting tomorrow, an increase in the budget of 5% went into the training budget for all departments and it went into intentionally building up leaders on. We'll call it. I mean, we call it on the show the soft skills of leadership. We'll call it the human skills. We'll just call it anything that's not the hard skills of the job, the non tactical piece. But what would the fires look like in the future to come if every fire department invested x amount more money to start offering leadership development and people?
- [23:54]
A
Well, I think, I think that's part of the issue. I mean, what would it look like? It's hard to say. It depends on where the investment went.
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B
Yeah, good point. Yeah, right? Yeah.
- [24:06]
A
If the investment went well, we just want you to get four more certifications on the operational piece. It's not going to take you there. But if it's about, you know, learning how to be a change manager, learning how to have those courageous conversations, learning how to really strategically position your organization for the 21st century, I think that would be very, very significant. It's about really investing in your culture. And you've got to build a culture that's going to be very, very adaptable and responsive to change in the future. But it also has got to be a culture that is built upon something different than I think we have today. Here's the second piece of the equation.
- [24:48]
B
Yes, please.
- [24:50]
A
We hire out of the same gene pool all the time.
- [24:53]
B
Yes, we do.
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A
We go, go to the local colleges, we test, we create all of these barriers to entry with certifications and things like that. And if we really want to diversify our thought process in our organizations and be reflective of our communities, we need to get rid of all of that.
- [25:15]
B
How do we do that?
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A
Well, I mean, we did it in Fresno.
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B
What'd you do? What Fresno do? I'm curious.
- [25:21]
A
Well, we had, we had, we had. I don't know what they, what they're doing now, but at the time we had a lot of, you know, many, many certifications that you had to. Oh, yeah, you didn't have to be a paramedic, but we had a lot of certifications. And that was limiting for a lot of the, the prospective candidates, especially in that area. So we changed it to, you could have to have a GED and not have a felony.
- [25:46]
B
Got it. So very basic, right?
- [25:48]
A
So, yeah, very basic. We'll train, we'll train you. We will train you to do everything else. Yeah, you still have to meet the qualifications. Of course, once you're in, you got to do all the stuff.
- [25:58]
B
Of course.
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A
We really diversified the workforce.
- [26:02]
B
Yeah.
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A
You know, I think, I think organizations need to look at that.
- [26:07]
B
Yeah.
- [26:07]
A
Because we create a lot of barriers to entry. You got to be a firefighter one, you got to be a paramedic, you got to be associates, you got to have this, got to have that.
- [26:17]
B
Yeah.
- [26:17]
A
A lot of the young, young folks out there, they can't afford to do that. We have a very myopic approach to how we're hiring, and I think we need, really need to step back and look at that. So you talk about investment. That's the other investment I think organizations need to make, the cities, the elected officials need to make. Say, if we really want to open up the opportunity for people to come into public safety, we have to be willing to invest in training them after they get here.
- [26:46]
B
Yeah.
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A
Because it's, it's, it's. It's expensive to, you know, take a, you know, paramedic. What is it, 1200 hours now? So you're gone for six, seven, eight months?
- [26:55]
B
Yep, yep. Six, 10 months in some areas. But. Yes. Yeah, I totally agree.
- [27:00]
A
But that's an investment for bringing people in that normally wouldn't have come into the job.
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B
I agree.
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A
When you, you know, when we talk about diversity, it's not only diversity of what we look like, it's about diversity of background and thought, and that's what builds cultures and organizations.
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B
Yeah. I have a question for you, Chief. I love that we went down this path. We do a lot of work up here in the Pacific Northwest. I've been involved in conversations and committees where we talk about, you know, recruiting, we talk about retention, we talk about, you know, diversifying our workforce. But there are. There's a thought process, if you will, that, you know, many would say that it doesn't matter. What does diversity matter? All that matters is that you show up willing to do the job, you get trained, and you respond. Because it doesn't matter what you look like, doesn't matter where you come from. What it matters is that you're trainable. So what would you say? Because there's two. Would you agree that there's two thought process, if you will. There's, there's many who would believe, you know, there's value, high value in a diversified workforce and that we could train you to do this job. There's another thought process that's like, it doesn't matter, the diversity. All that matters is that you show up to work and do your job. So would you. What are your thoughts on that? Because I know you went down the path of if you want a diversified workforce, you need to close down, block or get rid of these barriers and welcome everybody in. But there's many that don't believe that's a necessity. Does that. You follow me a little bit?
- [28:20]
A
Yeah. No. And I think they're Wrong.
- [28:23]
B
I did too. I just wanted your thought.
- [28:27]
A
Yeah. Well, you know, I think, I think, I think one of the things that is extremely. And it's going to become more important is you have to reflect your community. Right.
- [28:37]
B
I, I agree. I agree 100 and. But there are many that don't believe that. Right. Would you agree?
- [28:45]
A
Yeah. I mean the. Anna and, and part of that is the pushback on the whole DEI thing.
- [28:50]
B
Yeah.
- [28:51]
A
I think we're seeing some of that right now. And I've got a kind of a different philosophy about that. I was talking with one of my friends who's a African American chief and I, and we were, we were going, we were talking about the, the, the whole, that whole piece and I said, well, I, I have a whole different perspective. I have a div. What I call diversity. Inclusiveness, opportunity, accountability. Diversity is. Diversity is what we. Diversity in any organization is what we look like. Right.
- [29:25]
B
Okay.
- [29:25]
A
Yeah. But it's, it's also about your experience.
- [29:29]
B
Yes, agreed. 100%.
- [29:31]
A
Yeah. And both are important if you're not, if you're not searching out for people that are reflective of your community but also are bringing diverse thought patterns into your organization. Which we don't do very well in the fire service because we go back and we, we hire the same people all the time. You know, the same type of people. So a diversity of thought and diversity of what we look like.
- [29:56]
B
Yeah.
- [29:57]
A
Inclusion is about bringing those people into the organization, but number two is also engaging them from the time that they walk through the door. Because you cannot be an inclusive organization just because you have, you're diverse just because they're there. You've got to engage them. The, the third piece is opportunity. And opportunity is to a two way street. Opportunity is the organization has a responsibility to provide opportunity for people to advance.
- [30:30]
B
Yes.
- [30:31]
A
They do that through supporting them, to prepare them to promote up whatever their profession is.
- [30:37]
B
Yeah.
- [30:38]
A
Opportunity is also the responsibility of the individual to take advantage of it.
- [30:44]
B
Yes.
- [30:45]
A
If they don't take advantage of it, then that's not the organization's fault.
- [30:49]
B
Agreed.
- [30:50]
A
Last piece, really important. Accountability. Because you can't, you can't create. And this goal goes back to equity. You cannot create equity unless you have accountability in the organization to provide that opportunity to be inclusive, to hire diverse people. But the opportunity accountability also falls to the employee.
- [31:15]
B
Yep.
- [31:16]
A
Is they've got to be willing to step up.
- [31:18]
B
Got to be willing to step up. Yes.
- [31:19]
A
And do what they need to do successful. And you know, we can't give people a handout and create A diverse worst and create equity. Of course we can give them a hand up. And that's what, you know, that's kind of my thought process.
- [31:35]
B
I love that. I love that the accountability piece is something we don't talk about much. I think it's something that we, we say a lot and we think about a lot, but it's not something that we actually hold ourselves to. Like, yes, we should be accountable to our, to our own decision making, our own thought processes, but it also comes to, I think it also that mentorship piece in there as well, like to push each other. Right. To encourage each other. And I think that goes with engagement, inclusiveness as well. But yes, accountability definitely plays okay. In fact, I think accountability is necessary in everything. Right. There's no. Without accountability in all these other aspects. It's just a concept. So I, I love how you ended it with. Yeah, you got to have accountability as well.
- [32:16]
A
Yeah.
- [32:17]
B
Talk about pay it forward, Chief, I know pay it forward is something that you are big on. I know we just talked about leaving the fire service better tomorrow. We talked about, you know, making sure people have access and opportunity. But talk about the importance when it comes to leadership, the importance of paying it forward.
- [32:33]
A
Well, you know, the Leadership Crucible foundation was, was founded on two tenants and one was pay it forward and the second was leave it better. And you know, that was embedded in me, I think my first company officer who was a marine. And you know, I think about the second or third day on the job, we're sitting around talking and, and you know, like you do around the coffee table. And he said, well, so where do you see yourself in the next 30 years? You know, you know, 22, 23 year old. You don't really know.
- [33:11]
B
Yeah, right.
- [33:12]
A
Next week, right?
- [33:13]
B
Yeah, exactly. Get through my probation.
- [33:15]
A
Yeah, that's exactly probably what I told him. Yeah. I think he, he said, you know what? He said, I'm going to give you just a really simple piece of advice. He said, if you do these two things, he said, you would create a legacy for yourself. He said, always pay it forward to others and leave any situation you find better. He said, if you do those two things, he said, at the end of the day, you're going to look back and you'll have made a difference. And he said, that's what we're here to do.
- [33:43]
B
Yeah.
- [33:44]
A
And so that always stuck with me. And so when we started the, when we launched the Leadership Crucible foundation and we were talking through this, I said, you know, two things that have always resonated with me and was, was pay it forward and leave it better. And if you can do that, try and do that, you can't always do it, but if you do that and, you know, you think about it, that's what we do on every call. And if you just take that same philosophy and bring it back into the firehouse, bring it back into your organization and say we should, you know, we should be looking at when we're making decisions that, making sure we're making the right decisions for the long term for the next generation, you know, that won't hurt the organization. That will, will leave it better for the next, next, next fire chief or the next company officer that walks into this firehouse, you know that it's well taken care of and everything's in place and you know, all the things that need to happen to, to make that, you know, station run, a lot of times that doesn't happen. As, you know, you've walked into some, A lot, probably a lot of messes already in your career.
- [34:49]
B
I think we all have. Yes. Just leave everything a little bit better than you found it and it'll multiply. It'll be exponentially better years from now.
- [34:56]
A
Yeah. And if you look at the landscape of what happens, and I, I use Washington as a good example at the federal level and it happens at the state level too, but they're kicking the can down the road on so many significant issues that, you know, you just say, just do the right thing. Yeah, the right thing. And that's, that's probably the other. There's two other tenets that really, that really always come to mind when I, you know, when you talk about being an effective leader, paying it forward, leaving it better, do the right thing, even if it's hard. And as you move up in the organization, that becomes more difficult because then you have to discipline people, fire people and things like that. That, that's never easy. But you have to, you know, you have to have that accountability line in your organization or you don't have a culture.
- [35:46]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [35:48]
A
The other is, I think for, especially for public safety people. And this is, this is a phrase that I think John Maxwell, I originally read it, he, I think he wrote a book from success to Significance.
- [36:02]
B
So I have this written down. I love this. Can you say the quote, Chief? Because it's, it's, it's a phenomenal quote. It's from Legacy, right? Yeah, it's from. It's Legacy. Is that from the book, right?
- [36:10]
A
I believe that's correct.
- [36:12]
B
Yeah.
- [36:12]
A
You know, when I, When I read that book and you know, I often, I, you know, it took me back to, you know, when, when you, when you're hired as a firefighter or as a police officer and they pin that badge on you, you're immediately a success. Right. But you're not significant. And so you really have to focus on some of the things we talked about. The pay it forward and leave it better and do the right thing, even when it's hard. If you want to have a life of significance or a career of significance.
- [36:47]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [36:48]
A
And so moving from, you know, just being, having a successful career to having an impactful, significant career or a personal life or whatever it is really is a different thought process. And so, but so often we don't look at that. Yeah, hey, I've got five, I've got five bugles now. So, you know, I'm really, I'm really important. The importance isn't, isn't so much the rank, the importance is what you do with it.
- [37:17]
B
And I'll, I'll say the quote right here for, just for the listeners is successes. Correct me if I'm wrong, Chief, success is very individual based. Right. It's what I did, what I accomplished, what I've done throughout my career. But we should all be striving to be of significance, not of success because significance is the impact that you leave for generations to come. So if you've built a career of significance, you'll be remembered and your impact will have lasted a long time versus your success goes and dies with you when you, when you basically when you retire. So we should all be striving to be of significance, not successful.
- [37:51]
A
Yeah, exactly. And, and you know, I've had, and this is, this is a, just totally on me, but because I've had a lot of great people working with me and, But I've had three calls in the last year from departments from 20 years ago or, you know, in from Anaheim and from Fresno saying, you know, you know, remember when we did that?
- [38:16]
B
Yeah. Wow.
- [38:17]
A
Remember when we laid that out? Well, it's actually going to happen now.
- [38:21]
B
Wow. 20 years, you're saying, and it took that long.
- [38:24]
A
We planted the seed. And you know, there's a, there's an old quote that you, you know, you plant the seed, but you don't send it. You never sit under the shade.
- [38:34]
B
Yes, yes.
- [38:35]
A
And from a leader's perspective, that's really, really true.
- [38:39]
B
You don't do things for benefit yourself for the now.
- [38:44]
A
Got to look at it long term. And yeah, I mean one of the chiefs of Chiefs. And one of the chief in Oregon, he called me up and he said, yeah. He said, I went back and read all your stuff. He said, about 80% of it's happened.
- [38:58]
B
Wow.
- [38:59]
A
But a lot of it just happened under my watch. And I said, well, that's how it happens. I said, so what do you. What. What do you plan for the future?
- [39:08]
B
Is that what you asked him? That's awesome.
- [39:10]
A
No, no, I said, what are you. What are you planning for the future? And he lined out. He. I mean, he was really dialed in. He had a line. Yeah. So. But, you know, and I've. I've worked with a lot of fire chiefs and chief officers. A lot of them don't think that way.
- [39:23]
B
That's. That's powerful. Chief. And I'll highlight that because I think it's important. So for the listeners, we should all be striving to. To not build something that we're gonna. That we're gonna benefit off individually. Right now, we should be building something, a culture, a policy, a practice, whatever it may be, so that those in two, five, or in this case, 20 years later, that generation is benefiting from what we did. And so if we have that philosophy and not worry about what are we going to get out of it tomorrow by what we do today, I think we'll be doing everything that you said, leaving the fire service better.
- [39:58]
A
Well, and bring that back into the firehouse.
- [40:00]
B
And bring that back into the firehouse.
- [40:02]
A
And. And not at the chief's level, because, you know, so oftentimes. Well, this. That's a. That's a chief's job. Let's talk about a captain's job. And I've had this happen, unfortunately, several. Several times. But you. You hire a new firefighter, you put them in a station, and they get. With a disgruntled crew, what happens with that firefighter?
- [40:23]
B
They become the same.
- [40:24]
A
Yeah, they become the same. And sometimes you lose them for their entire career. Yeah, I've seen it. I've probably had a dozen firefighters that had extreme talent, but, you know, they got with the wrong people. They couldn't lead themselves, and, you know, they got sucked into the negativity and all the stuff. And then it was just. But that goes to. To show what. Wherever you're at in an organization, you can have impact. And in that case, that person was not paying it forward, was not leading with significance and. And did damage. I mean, not only to themselves. And then you've probably walked into fire stations or worked with crews like that, and you go, you know, this is the longest 24 hours I've spent.
- [41:15]
B
Some cases. 48. Yes.
- [41:17]
A
Yeah.
- [41:18]
B
You went down a path that I'm going to get to in a second. But I want to capture this next piece before we move forward, because I think we talked leadership crucible. You had mentioned many times about getting phone calls, whether it be from colleagues, from individuals that you worked with 20 years prior. But can you talk, Chief, about the importance of having that network of trusted individuals, of people on your, let's just say, on your team? Right, because your team can consist of people, people in your personal life, professional life. It could consist of people on your crew, on your shift. It consists of people from different ranks. But can you talk about the importance of having that network of people from different perspectives, divers to help you become better, but then help you propel forward in your career because having that team around you helps you grow?
- [42:05]
A
Well, I think there's. There's two things. One is having a network, and second is having mentors. Because a network is. You're connected throughout the system. Right. And, and like you, you're making new connections every day, not only for your podcast, but yourself, yourself personally. And so you create a network of people that you can, you know, maybe reach out to for some advice or just for some perspective. But I always encourage people to get two or three mentors and, you know, maybe one. One in their profession, one outside of their profession, and maybe it's just one that's, you know, more on a personal piece of it and try and get people that have. Bring different perspectives so that you can bounce ideas off of them. I, you know, I have always had two or three mentors when I was going through my career. Ron Coleman was one of them. I don't know if you know Ron, but he passed away about a year, year and a half ago. But he was the former state fire marshal, California, former past president FC Alan Bruni was another one of, one of the folks that I could call up and say, hey, I'm dealing with this. Couple others that you probably wouldn't know, but you know, on a personal side, but, you know, that's really, really important to get perspective. And a good mentor will never tell you what to do. They'll just say, hey, you might want to think about some of these things.
- [43:48]
B
Yeah, yeah, right. They'll let you fail as well sometimes because that's important in your growth. Right.
- [43:53]
A
Yeah. And, and they push and, you know, good mentors will, will ask tough questions.
- [43:58]
B
Yeah.
- [43:59]
A
So if you're not only struggling, but if you are facing Something that maybe you haven't faced before. And you can call and say, hey, I'm dealing with this issue, or I'm facing this personally, you know, you know, what's. What can you give me some, you know, outside perspective? You've got to have mentors that are willing to do that. So it's, it's really important. So I think having a network and establishing your network, not only in this, in the profession, but outside of it is critical because that opens doors, provides development opportunities for you outside of the profession, which are really, really important. But also having mentors in and outside of the profession to really be able to bounce things off, off of, off of them if you run into situations. I know I used to call Ron and Alan a lot and say, hey, have you ever guys ever faced this? Because it might be something as a new chief that I, I had never faced before.
- [44:56]
B
Right.
- [44:57]
A
And they say, oh, yeah, yeah, I've been down that road two or three times. What, what did you find? You might want to look at. You might want to think about these things. That's a good idea. So, you know, just having people to give you some outside perspective, have a little more experience in you, can really be very, very beneficial and, you know, maybe save. Save you from doing something that you probably, you know, making a bad decision.
- [45:24]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I asked that question because I'm. How many in the fire service today, Chief, that don't have mentors? Right. And for whatever reason, whether they're. They don't know how to ask for a mentor, they don't believe in mentorship, or they, you know, don't know how to go about, you know, finding one. But I think at the end of your message right now, is everyone listening to this? If you don't have a mentor, go find a couple mentors now.
- [45:48]
A
And, you know, people are. I think most people are willing to do that.
- [45:51]
B
Absolutely. I think, I think as a mentor, one would be or should be at least fascinated by the ask, if you will. Right. Like, I don't think. I mean, that's what leaders are supposed to do is, Is first of all, be that leader. I guess that definitions within itself. Right. If you're not, you don't have a follower. I mean, are you leading anybody? Right. I know Maxwell talks about that a lot, but yeah, I think a leader would be fascinated to get a phone call or a conversation and say, hey, would you mind being my mentor? And, you know, and I mean, I don't know, would anyone say, no?
- [46:21]
A
I don't think very Many people.
- [46:23]
B
Very many. Exactly. So, yeah, put yourself out there. Okay, let's talk about this. Chief. So we talked about being comfortable, talked about getting out of your comfort zone. So if we were going to talk to three groups, firefighters, company officers, and then chief officers, regarding some of the stuff that we talked about, we talked about, you know, being a change manager. We talked about paying it forward, leaving the place better tomorrow. We talked about diversity, accountability, inclusiveness, and like, 14 other things that I've yet to mention. But if you're talking to, say, firefighters, newer firefighters, and they were becoming leaders. Right, because firefighters are leaders. It doesn't matter where they're at in their career, six months in, 10 years in, they're leaders. What's some advice that you would give to firefighters regarding becoming stronger leaders?
- [47:06]
A
Well, the first advice I would say is lead yourself. You know, and, and the reason why I say that gets back to the, the other thing we talked about is when new firefighters go into a bad crew, Right. Those that can't lead themselves get sucked in. Those that do lead themselves don't. And so leading yourself is a foundational element to being a one to, I think, your personal success. But it's also fundamentally, it's a, it's a fundamental piece of being an effective leader. And if you can't do that, and that starts from the time you walk through the fire station door on day one.
- [47:55]
B
Yeah.
- [47:56]
A
That doesn't mean that, you know, you don't take orders and, and, you know, you don't play, play the game and do what you're supposed to do, but you have to lead yourself and you have to know, know yourself and know what's right and what's wrong and be able to stand up and say, I don't agree with that and, or I'm not going to do that. So it's really, really critical and it's hard, have to do it.
- [48:23]
B
And I think that goes with even company officers and chief officers. Right. That continues. Right. I mean, to be able to lead yourself in all aspects. But, yeah, that's. I think that's key. Okay. You're talking to a company officer, chief, or a group of them, and you were going to give them some advice. Right. And they're still continuing to grow as leaders. What's some advice you'd give to them?
- [48:41]
A
Well, one is get out of your comfort zone.
- [48:44]
B
I love this one. Yes.
- [48:46]
A
Right. Because the, the reality is we get really comfortable in what we're doing. Each and every day we go, you know, we get real comfortable and going, firehouse We've got the same routine and all that, but, you know, there's no growth there. Just doing the same thing over and over again and, and expecting you, you know, a different result is, you know, it's not going to happen. You've got to push yourself, you know, whatever level you're at, you got to push yourself to continue to, to learn new things and get yourself outside of your comfort zone so that you can, that's where you progress. Yeah, you never, you never progress in, inside your comfort zone. And that's, that's really difficult for a lot of people to do. But I think, you know, you, I think the leaders that I've worked with, they're willing to do that. I mean, the good leaders that I've worked with, the ones that really were effective leaders, had great vision, were good stewards, they, they always drove to continue to push themselves. And those are the people that, that, and, and that's the, that's what we need to instill in all of our people.
- [49:55]
B
Yeah.
- [49:56]
A
You know, lead yourself, get out of your comfort zone. You'll do great things.
- [49:59]
B
You do great things. So I'm gonna, let's stay here for a minute, Chief, if you don't mind, I'm gonna give an example to a company officer who's listening of getting out of their comfort zone. Like, what's an example of something that you would say, go out and do this. Even as crazy it may sound, here's an example for me that I would say is like, go to a day shift position, right? Because I say that because firefighters, and I joke around, firefighters never aspire to go to day shift, Right. They were eight, nine, nine days a month. And you're going to say, I'm going to willingly put myself to work five days a month, five days a week, four days a week. No way, no chance in hell. Right? So that's great. So what's a recommendation or advice that you would say? Here's an example of getting out of your comfort zone.
- [50:37]
A
I mean, you use the best one for, for, for the, you know, I think the, you know, 24 hour firefighter is go do something different for a year. You know, go, go say, I want to go into, to, to community risk reduction for a year, or I want to go to fire prevention, whatever they're, whatever they're calling in your organization. Or I want to go on and do a 40 hour training, training officer job or explore the opportunity of going to work for another department for a year and seeing if your organization has an exchange program where you can go work in another. Another department in the city.
- [51:15]
B
Wow.
- [51:16]
A
If you want to get a different perspective of how city government runs, if you're looking to. If you're looking to promote a past, a captain, that's the best thing you could do. If you have to do some of it on your own time. Because if you. If you got to spend some time in each department and see what they do and how they do it, you know, a lot of things that we do, we can translate to. To other departments in. In our organizations, other cities, counties, and we do it really well. But they're doing some phenomenal stuff, too, that we don't even know about.
- [51:52]
B
Exactly. That we don't even know about.
- [51:54]
A
And so, you know, we should be infiltrating. Infiltrating them and stealing as much as we can.
- [51:59]
B
Yeah. Yes. Right. Right.
- [52:01]
A
You're learning a lot along the way. So put yourself. Ask yourself, what. What opportunities could I have in my job to take me out of my comfort zone that would offer me opportunities to learn something that I don't know today or a skill that I don't know today or whatever? You know, I think in most organizations, those opportunities do exist.
- [52:25]
B
They do.
- [52:26]
A
And so. And. But sometimes you're gonna have to do that on your own time, too.
- [52:30]
B
Yeah.
- [52:31]
A
But I mean, it's. It's. It's a worthwhile adventure.
- [52:35]
B
Exactly. It's an investment in yourself for the long term, is what it is.
- [52:38]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And you may find. You may find yourself after you've done that, you. You may find that you want a career change.
- [52:45]
B
Exactly.
- [52:46]
A
They find, hey, I want to be a city manager, or I want to go do this or I want to go do that. And. But you won't ever know unless you, you know, dip your toe in the water, so to speak.
- [52:57]
B
Agreed. And I think. I mean, just to run with that a little more, we. We. We. We are. We use that concept now. We just don't relate it at the bigger levels. Like, so how many firefighters in your career, Chief, have you seen? I just want to stay a firefighter forever. But then they get into. They get a little taste of being a company officer, and then they end up being a company officer. It's like, well, see, it was just because you explored it, you then got to learn about it. But if you never put yourself out there to learn about something, then, of course, you may never want to be it. But, you know, I think that's what you. To go with. What you're saying is, sometimes we just have to learn A little bit about something to really realize, yeah, I don't want to do that, or, no, this is amazing. I'm glad I started learning about this, because that's what I want to be.
- [53:39]
A
Yeah. And you're right. I mean, I've had. I've had many, many an employee that's, you know, they would. They would make that statement. You know, I just. I just want to. I just want to be an engineer.
- [53:50]
B
Yeah.
- [53:51]
A
And I would always share with them. I said, you. You do what you need to do. What. You know, if that's what you want to do the rest of your career, you're a great engineer, do that. But I said, I think you're missing some opportunity. And then they would always say, well, what's the opportunity? I said, I don't know.
- [54:08]
B
Yeah, exactly. I don't know.
- [54:09]
A
And you don't either, because you're not exploring it. Just don't know.
- [54:14]
B
So I love that. Thank you, Chief. All right, chief officers. Now, this could be battalion chiefs, deputies, assistants, fire chiefs himself, because hopefully, even at that level, they're still growing. Right. It's not, all right, I made it. I'm done. It's. No. Now you're in a new role, but you're still continuing to serve yourself and others. What would you say to chief officers and higher to continue their growth as being strong leaders?
- [54:37]
A
You know. You know, that's a. That's a. That's a. An interesting question, especially at that level, because you would have hoped by the time that they got to be a chief officer, they were already doing that.
- [54:52]
B
Agreed. Everything that you had mentioned. Right?
- [54:54]
A
Yeah. And so I. I guess my. My answer would be, hopefully the testing process and eliminated those that had not.
- [55:02]
B
There you go. But sometimes it doesn't. Right? But sometimes it doesn't. So knowing that. Right. Wrong or indifferent, what can. Chief. Let's just. Let's just throw it out there. Right? There's a podcast about growth, podcast about learning. Let's just say you had chief officers that rose to the rank that they're at, and they did not do some of the things that we were talking about today. Right. They did not pay it forward to the career. They leave things better. They weren't change managers, whatever. Some are all of the above. It's not too late to start growing. Right. It's not too late to become better. What would you say to those individuals? Just, you know, start doing this?
- [55:38]
A
Well, I think if you want to make a difference in your career, you really have to ask yourself, what do I need to do to make an impact on the people that I work with, not only in the short term, but the long term.
- [55:53]
B
Yeah.
- [55:54]
A
Number one. Number two is what do I need to do differently or what do I need to learn so that I can impact my organization in a positive way? For the long term, There you go. Not the short term, not the short term.
- [56:09]
B
There you go.
- [56:11]
A
Because oftentimes we, we have a short term perspective on especially I think, you know, folks that are in the, in the firehouse because it's, you know, they live, they're, they're living in those blocks of time, right? Yeah. And but those blocks of time add up to an organizational perspective of the future. And so you can take yourself out of that blocks of time and start to look at what do we need to do today to really position our organization. And that's what chief officers are supposed to be doing. They're supposed to be looking at how do I position my organization, my shift, my battalion today so that they're better six months from now, a year from now, two years from now. What do I need to do? Yeah, because that doesn't happen just by talking about it. You've got to make the investment of building that, that vision, that plan to get whatever you're doing to where you want to go. And a lot of times we, that I've seen a lot of chief officers that they just don't do that. They're just living day to day.
- [57:18]
B
Well, yes, and I'll kind of lean on that a little bit, Chief. So I'm sure you've seen it right, like whether it be chief officer, whether it be anybody. But you're right, chief officers are in better position to make larger organizational impact for the future. But we, they're, they're, they're chief officers right there. They're individuals out there that got a year left and they're not focusing on the future of the organization. Right. They got a year left, they got six months left. But as you just stated, like that's what the focus should be is planting that seed that they'll never be able to benefit sitting in the shade in. Right. So that's difficult. So it's not really a question. But we see that a lot with individuals that are almost done in their career and their focus is not about planting that tree, planting that seed. It's about, well, I got six months left and I'm just riding it out.
- [58:07]
A
Yeah, I think, and I think that's really common not only in our profession, but in many professions. And it's unfortunate I mean, that's part of, I guess some people's human nature. But I've seen the, I've seen the, the opposite to be true as well. I've seen people that were at the end, hitting it to the end, the.
- [58:29]
B
Very last day and beyond, and beyond.
- [58:32]
A
They were walking out the door or hand, and you go, here's the 12 things that need to happen tomorrow.
- [58:36]
B
Yeah, yeah, right.
- [58:39]
A
And then they would call you and say, did you get those things done.
- [58:41]
B
Exactly 20 years later? Or like, this is what. Yeah, yeah.
- [58:46]
A
So it's, you know, I think, I think it's, it's an individual thing. But, but, you know, if you really want to leave, but if you want to build your own legacy, you can't, you can't be. I mean, if the people that do that, this is my observation.
- [59:02]
B
Yeah.
- [59:02]
A
The people that, that, you know, a year out, they're just writing it out. Well, the fact of the matter is they've been writing it out for a longer than a year.
- [59:09]
B
That's, that's a good point. That's a good point. That's, that's, that's a great point.
- [59:13]
A
Yeah. Their legacy is I, I just got by, you know. So you have to ask yourself, what do you want your legacy to be? You want to get by or do you want to make a difference? You want to make an impact. And if you want to make a difference and make an impact, you're going to ride the horse till the end.
- [59:31]
B
I know you've written a lot of books. I know you've authored a lot of articles. This is being. There's so much resources out there. What are some favorite readings of yours that we can latch on to and say, you know what? The Chief said that one. I want to pick that book up. What are some of your favorite readings out there?
- [59:47]
A
Well, I've got, I've got. Thanks for sending me the list before about. Because they made me go back and think about what's really impacted me. And so there were four books, I think that have really. And I, they're all on my shelf and you know, I go back to them often but really have, have kind of influenced my leadership style. But also are just a good desk reference and a reminder. The first is Servant Leadership by Robert Greenleaf. You probably heard of the book. I mean it was, it was written, I think back in the late 70s, early 80s. He was far ahead of his time. Yeah. In fact, I think, I think if you go back and read that book now, a lot of what, especially Gen Z is Looking for is servant leadership philosophy. And so I think as we look at five generations in the workforce, I. I think the aspect of servant leadership has really come to play. So that's a good one. The other one's called Paradigms by Joel Barker. Paradigms is about how we kind of view our world, and he kind of walks us through how that can impact we become the decision processes that we make or don't make. And so I got to hear him speak when I was a young firefighter, when he came through in Fort Collins, really back in the day, and really changed my perspective. It really made me step back and start to look at things in a different way. So that, that book again, some influence. 21 laws of irrefutable Leadership by Maxwell.
- [61:37]
B
Maxwell Y.
- [61:38]
A
Excellent book. He just kind of walks through those 21 laws of, of effective leadership. And so it's. That's a really good book. And then the last book for me is. It's called Halftime.
- [61:53]
B
Yeah, I don't, I don't know this one. I'm intrigued about this.
- [61:56]
A
It's a. It's a. It's a small book, and it's by a guy named Bob Buford. I think he was a professional athlete. But he talks about looking at your life as if you're playing a game, football game, and what do you do when you're at halftime? What's going to be the rest of your life?
- [62:16]
B
Interesting. I'm gonna look that one up. I don't know that I know all these other three. I don't know this one.
- [62:20]
A
And so it's, it kind of plays into the whole success to significance focuses on, you know, you've made it to this point. You're. You're at the halftime. You may be a captain, you may be a chief, wherever you're at, you know, you've accomplished a lot. You have some, hopefully you have some success under your belt by the time you get to that point in your life. Right? Absolutely.
- [62:44]
B
Absolutely.
- [62:45]
A
But what are you going to do with the rest of it? It.
- [62:47]
B
Exactly. Are you done or are you gonna keep going?
- [62:49]
A
Yeah, you're at a point where you have decision. It's a decision point. It's really about, you know, what are you going to do with the second half? You know, are you just gonna, you know, run the ball or are you gonna. Are you gonna go for it? You know. Right. It's a easy read, just kind of a different perspective. But it kind of plays into, you know, I think, importance of, you know, preparing yourself for what you want to Do.
- [63:14]
B
Well, and I, I love the parable. I mean, first of all, I love sports. I love football, but. Yeah. How many games are won or lost in the second half? Games aren't won or lost in the first half.
- [63:24]
A
No.
- [63:25]
B
So I, I love that. I, I think it's, it's a must read already, just by the way you explained it. Thank you for that, Chief. So I'd be remiss if I didn't at least ask that. Chief, obviously you're an author of many books. Give us a book or two that you would. Your favorite book that you wrote or a book that you would recommend our readers to read of yours.
- [63:43]
A
Well, I think the Advanced Fire Administration book that just came out.
- [63:47]
B
Oh, that's a newer book. That's a newer one, yeah. Oh, I didn't know that.
- [63:51]
A
Yeah. I mean, well, there's two. There's a. Principles of Fire Administration that's kind of focused really at the, I think the firefighter company officer level.
- [64:02]
B
Yeah.
- [64:03]
A
But the Advanced Fire Administration book I think really delves into some of the stuff that we've talked about a little bit deeper, but it also, I think goes into depth about community risk reduction, marketing, things like that for fire service.
- [64:18]
B
Okay.
- [64:20]
A
In a, you know, I think a more in depth way than I think some of the past textbooks.
- [64:27]
B
Advanced Fire Administration. I love it because kind of going with what you just said, maybe we don't necessarily. Hopefully, but maybe some of us don't necessarily say, you know what, I just, I'm not going to day shift. Right. We talked about getting yourself out of your comfort zone, but maybe it's as simple as picking up a different perspective of a different genre of book. Right. We're all picking up those tactics books. We're all picking up, you know, what's the latest and greatest on ventilation or, you know, search and rescue. Advanced fire administration. Right. I bet you not firefighters in the firehouse, you're not jumping at picking up a topic on community risk reduction and fire prevention and that. But maybe that's going to, what you said, put yourself out of your comfort zone and pick up a different genre of book and go there. So I love that. Advanced Fire Administration. There you go. Okay, so this is my favorite part of the show. Chief, we're here today because Benjamin May said, I've got a leader for you that you have to reach out to that would offer a great message on leadership. So we end the episode with Leadership Challenge. Our goal is to further this conversation. So the conversation doesn't end on leadership. Fire service leaders they listen in and they hopefully continue to share amongst their peers. So is there someone else out there, Chief, that you would recommend for us to reach out to as be a guest on the kitchen table?
- [65:37]
A
Yes, one of my board members.
- [65:41]
B
Oh, he's a board member?
- [65:43]
A
Yeah. I haven't talked to him.
- [65:45]
B
I think I'll let you reach out to him for some. Some of these are. Whoa. I. This is so random. And some of them, like. Yep, I already know what you're talking about. Is it Chief Kenny?
- [65:56]
A
No, Chief Kenny would be excellent too.
- [65:59]
B
Got it. I had Chief Kenny, but who's the other individual?
- [66:02]
A
Jack Rice. Jack was a three star jag. He was the highest ranking JAG officer in the Air Force.
- [66:11]
B
Oh.
- [66:13]
A
When he retired, he went on to lead the American bar Association for 12 years as their executive director. And now he's. He retired from there about two years ago and now he's leading Rocket lawyers. But just a phenomenal leader.
- [66:31]
B
I think that goes with everything that you said today about that diversity and perspective is. I don't know if we've had an individual on this show from the military. Well, we've had individuals on this show from the fire service with military background, but we haven't had individuals that weren't in the fire service from the military. So this will go with your theme today and diversity and perspective and widening that and offering that here for leaders to listen in. Reach out to Jack R. I'll connect you.
- [66:58]
A
And you too. And then. Awesome.
- [67:00]
B
I appreciate it.
- [67:02]
A
Here's another podcast for you to do.
- [67:04]
B
I appreciate that, Chief. Thank you so much. It allows us to continue to grow the conversation on leadership. So thank you. So I do want to say thank you, Chief. Appreciate you taking up the conversation today and helping spread the messages that we know fire service leaders need, need to tune into. So before we close the 60th leadership conversation today, I encourage everyone to go to the Leadership Crucible foundation website. And that is leadershipcruciblefoundation.org there are a wealth of resources available to anyone, individuals and to organizations. The foundation offers newsletters, webinars, curriculum development, and so much more. Also, check out two of their podcasts, the Leadership Crucible and the Leaders of Tomorrow, both available on all podcast outlets. Before we close today's show, Chief Brugman, what are your lasting leadership thoughts that you'd like to leave our listeners with?
- [68:00]
A
Well, I think what I would share with them is, you know, being able to lead others is a real gift. You really have an opportunity to impact and influence the trajectory that they're going to have in their life. From a leadership perspective, if you keep that in mind and you. You hold dear that it's never about you, it's about them and it's about the organization, then I think you'll make a big. You'll make a great difference throughout your career. And so that's what I've. That's what I always tried to do. I don't know if I've always done it, but that's. That's what I've tried to focus on. And. And you know, when you do that, I think you really make a difference for not only your organization that you're. You're in, but also the people that you've been. Been gifted to lead.
- [69:00]
B
And I think you said something key there, chief, too, is you don't know if you always do it. You don't know if maybe you're not doing it, but the fact that you're striving for it always and that you know that you are doing that, that oftentimes I think is key. Right. No one ever asked for perfection in a leader. No one ever asked for a leader to not fail along the way. But if you're always striving for that, I think you're making the right steps. And I think that goes to everyone listening here today is we're striving to be that leader that we want to be. Knowing that we won't be a perfect leader and that we will fail. And that's okay.
- [69:30]
A
Yeah. If. If you can't accept failure, don't. Don't get into a leadership position.
- [69:35]
B
Yeah, exactly. Yes.
- [69:38]
A
Yeah. Yeah. You've. You've got. I've had many failures. Yeah.
- [69:42]
B
As. As have I.
- [69:44]
A
You got to learn. You got to learn. You got to fail forward.
- [69:46]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [69:49]
A
From the mistakes that you make. And. And do it better next time.
- [69:53]
B
And do it better next time. Gotta learn from it is key. And do better next time.
- [69:56]
A
Unfortunately, we see a lot of people that don't do that.
- [69:59]
B
Yes. Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. On both ends. They. They don't fail because they don't even want to put themselves out there who fail. But then they're not learning from the failure when they do fail.
- [70:09]
A
Yeah.
- [70:10]
B
Thank you, everyone, for tuning in today to the kitchen table. We truly hope that you found this time valuable. We hope we've inspired you to take action, to lead and to spread the leadership conversation. Till next time, be safe, be intentional, stay curious.