Ep. 62: Spencer Davis, Captain - Credibility & Team

Summary

Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table: Episode 62 Summary

Title: Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table
Host/Author: Berlin Maza
Episode: Ep. 62: Spencer Davis, Captain - Credibility & Team
Release Date: January 27, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 62 of Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table, host Berlin Maza, alongside Deputy Fire Chief Bill Mack, engages in a profound dialogue with Captain Spencer Davis. Joined by Battalion Chief Jared Sergey, a former guest and author of No Nonsense Leadership, the conversation delves deep into essential leadership themes within the fire service, including team building, credibility, reputation, and navigating career transitions.

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Guest Background

Captain Spencer Davis is a seasoned firefighter with 18 years of dedicated service, primarily with the City of Norfolk, Virginia. A fourth-generation firefighter, Spencer has extensive experience in heavy rescue operations and serves as a rescue specialist on FEMA Urban Search and Rescue’s Virginia Task Force 2. His role extends beyond firefighting as he instructs for the Virginia Department of Fire Programs and Take the Door Training LLC, focusing on special operations.

Battalion Chief Jared Sergey, a current Norfolk Fire and Rescue Battalion Chief and author, co-hosts today's discussion, bringing his insights from both leadership and frontline experiences.

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Team Building

A central theme of the episode is team building, with Captain Davis emphasizing the importance of creating a team that members genuinely want to be part of.

“If you're building a team that people truly want to be a part of, then they're going to do the things that you ask of them simply because they want to be there, they want to be successful, they want to have a good time.” — Captain Spencer Davis [33:04]

Key Points:

• Camaraderie and Relationships: Building strong, personal relationships within the team fosters trust and cooperation. Captain Davis highlights, “you have to take the time as an officer and really have to get to know your people.”

• Cultural Immersion: Immersing oneself in the firehouse culture, understanding team members’ personal lives, and engaging beyond work-related topics are crucial for team cohesion.

• Team Pride: Establishing pride in the team’s assignment and operations boosts morale and performance. Captain Davis notes, “whatever I am is what my plan is, they’re going to be the best.”

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Credibility and Reputation

Maintaining credibility is vital for effective leadership within the fire service. Both Captain Davis and Battalion Chief Sergey discuss strategies to build and sustain a solid reputation.

“Leadership is a skill. If you want to be good at it, you have to develop that skill by taking classes and failing.” — Battalion Chief Jared Sergey [51:36]

Key Points:

• Consistency in Performance: Leaders must exemplify the behaviors and competencies they expect from their team. Captain Davis mentions, “if you can just take that time and truly… get to know who they are,” emphasizing the need for genuine interaction.

• Mentorship and Role Models: Finding mentors who exemplify strong leadership can significantly influence a leader’s development. Captain Davis recounts how a senior firefighter inspired him: “I want to be like that guy.”

• Handling Promotion Transitions: Both leaders stress the importance of maintaining credibility when transitioning to higher ranks. Battalion Chief Sergey advises, “don’t run from your past,” advocating for self-awareness and humility.

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Leadership Challenges

Transitioning into leadership roles presents unique challenges.

Captain Davis shares his journey from lieutenant to captain, highlighting the weight of responsibility and the necessity of delegation.

“You have to quickly build relationships with the folks that you're stationed with, and you have to kind of push some of that off onto them and do it as a team effort.” — Captain Spencer Davis [73:44]

Key Points:

• Responsibility and Accountability: As leaders ascend in rank, they must embrace greater responsibility for their team’s performance and well-being.

• Delegation Skills: Effective leaders recognize the importance of delegating tasks to trust their team members and foster a collaborative environment.

• Navigating New Roles: Leaders must adapt to their new roles by building trust and ensuring that their team remains focused and cohesive despite changes.

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Action Items and Advice

Both Captain Davis and Battalion Chief Sergey offer actionable advice for current and aspiring leaders in the fire service.

Captain Spencer Davis:

1. Immerse Yourself in the Profession: “You have to immerse yourself in the culture. You have to learn about it. You have to, you know, really study the craft and all that's out there.”

2. Build Strong Relationships: Engage with your team on a personal level to foster trust and camaraderie.

3. Continuous Learning: Utilize resources like Audible for leadership development and stay updated with the latest in fire service practices.

“Leadership alone is just another discipline, and you have to sharpen that skill.” — Captain Spencer Davis [84:01]

Battalion Chief Jared Sergey:

1. Develop Leadership as a Skill: “Leadership is a skill. If you want to be good at it, you have to develop that skill by taking classes and failing.”

2. Embrace Vulnerability: Be open to feedback and willing to acknowledge and learn from mistakes.

3. Promote Self-Awareness: Encourage leaders to reflect on their actions and continuously seek improvement.

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Leadership Challenge and Recommendations

Captain Davis challenges listeners to further the leadership conversation by nominating future guests who exemplify strong leadership in the fire service. He recommends Lt. Randy Jernigan Jr., a respected leader from a neighboring city, highlighting his extensive experience and impactful leadership during critical incidents like the Champlain Towers collapse in Miami.

“He's just a very highly respected guy. He's, he's always pushing, pushing the envelope, pushing things forward…” — Captain Spencer Davis [77:11]

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Closing Thoughts

In their concluding remarks, Battalion Chief Sergey emphasizes resilience and dedication amidst the evolving challenges in the fire service, urging leaders to focus on their roles and contribute positively to their teams. Captain Davis reiterates the importance of viewing leadership as an ongoing discipline, encouraging continual growth and adaptation.

“Getting promoted is not the finish line. It is truly like, it just restarts your career at each level.” — Captain Spencer Davis [84:01]
“When the bay doors go up, you are the only person that's going out there to perform those skills…. Be a practitioner.” — Battalion Chief Jared Sergey [82:24]

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Key Takeaways

• Team Building is foundational for creating a motivated and cohesive firehouse.
• Credibility is earned through consistent performance, genuine relationships, and continuous self-improvement.
• Leadership is a skill that requires active development, mentorship, and a willingness to adapt and learn.
• Career Transitions should be approached with humility, openness to feedback, and a focus on team success.
• Continuous Education and Immersion in the fire service are essential for personal and professional growth.

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Notable Quotes:

• Captain Spencer Davis [00:01]: “This job is just a game of relationships and building and expanding on those relationships…”
• Battalion Chief Jared Sergey [03:08]: “Every leader or officer is a leadership development program in their Organization…”
• Captain Spencer Davis [33:04]: “If you're building a team that people truly want to be a part of…”
• Battalion Chief Jared Sergey [51:36]: “Leadership is a skill. If you want to be good at it, you have to develop that skill…”

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For those looking to cultivate strong leadership within their fire service careers, Episode 62 offers valuable insights and practical advice from seasoned professionals dedicated to fostering effective and credible leadership within their teams.

Transcript

[Captain Spencer Davis]

Truly, this, this job is, like I told you before, I mean, it's a, it's just a game of relationships and building and expanding on those relationships and being able to, to meet new people and, and pull from their experience levels and just talk things through. Because maybe we aren't going to all the fires that, you know, the guys 30 years ago were going to, but we have the ability that we can, we can, I can watch a fire that occurred in Seattle last night, in Baltimore this morning, and watch those with the crews and troubleshooting. That's not experience that maybe I wasn't stretching lines or we weren't putting ladders to rooftops or conducting searches, but we're able to actually watch those in Lifetime and with helmet cameras and you know, the GoPros that put on the coats now and everything is, that's experience for us even if we're not there. So you have to immerse yourself in the culture. You have to learn about it. You have to, you know, really, you know, study the craft and all that's out there. And most of it's free. Very rarely pay for education when it comes to, to this work anymore.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Rescued from a three story apartment building, the First Responder Liaison Network is proud to present to you the Kitchen Table podcast. Join us as we explore leadership from perspectives around the globe. From firefighters to fire Chiefs, civilians to CEOs, our conversations have one simple goal. Build more leaders. Good afternoon. And Today's Leadership Conversation 62. And today we stay in Virginia as we have Captain Spencer Davis on the show. And we're going to be talking team building, reputation, pride, credibility, and a whole lot more. So please tune in. And every so often, we do bring in the leadership challenger onto the show. So today we have Jared Sergey with us. And Jared is a battalion chief with Norfolk Fire and Rescue. He's a former guest here on the Kitchen Table, as well as the author of the book no Nonsense Leadership with that Chief, good afternoon. Thanks for being here today. How are you?

[Chief Sergey]

I'm good, man. Thanks for having me. It's good to be, good to be back on here with you, of course.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Good to see you again and thank you for the challenge today of Captain Spencer Davis. That's how today's conversation is even possible. And so before we start, I'm going to quote you, Chief, because this is one of my favorite quotes I've heard on this show and one that I hope all listeners resonate with, as I did. And Chief, you said every leader or officer is a leadership development program in their Organization. Because in the absence of formal leadership development, we must remember that every leader is an example. Is the example. Or at least they should be. I hope every listener can resonate with that as we dive into today's conversation. So let's start with this before I introduce Captain Davis. Chief, you are the leadership challenger today. Would you mind sharing a little bit on your why? Of all the leaders you could have challenged, you chose Spencer Davis?

[Chief Sergey]

Yeah, of course, man. So I can remember when Spencer came in the fire department and he always had a good reputation, and we ended up on the same shift. When I got promoted to captain, I'm trying to piece this all together. I got promoted to captain, so I went to the C shift. That's where he was working. And I was downtown. He was on the other side of the city, so we didn't run across each other a whole lot. I spent a year at 12, which was a little bit closer to him, so I probably ran with him every now and then. And then, then I moved downtown. So paths crossed a little bit. But, you know, I knew of him. I knew he had a good reputation. And then I had an opportunity to go to 14 and Spencer. I think we got there the same day, if I remember right. But. So I had an opportunity to go to 14, and as I was going there, they. They were having some challenges at that station. Probably, I don't know, maybe it started, I feel like maybe six months or so before I got there. And the battalion chief at the time reached out to me, told me all these problems and said, hey, like, would you be willing to come over? And so I said, sure. So once it was kind of finalized, I can remember there was some movement within the department, specifically on our rescue company. And the special ops chief at the time, right as I went over there, I said, hey, am I going to have a say in the lieutenant that comes here on the rescue? And he said, yeah, of course you have a say. Who do you want? And I said, well, I want Spencer. And so ultimately he came over and we worked well together. And, you know, I was always impressed by his work ethic. Like, just a smart dude all around. Like, I know I learned a lot from him. I, you know, I'm like a break glass in case of emergency guy when it comes to anything special operations related. So, you know, I had. I was familiar, but I wouldn't say that I'm good. And so going there as a captain at 14 was a whole nother challenge for me because one, I had to relearn a lot of that stuff because it'd been years since I even touched it, right. And so now I'm in this position as the captain of the station. And I've always tried to lead by example. And I, I felt a little uneasy knowing that here I am a captain of a special operations station because typically the captains at that time, they came from the rescue, right? They were a lieutenant on the rescue. They were a captain at 14 or 7. At the time I didn't have that path, you know, so, so there I am. And not only am I assigned to an engine, I have to manage a station, but I want to help support special operations. And so I found myself having to relearn a lot of that stuff again. So I was just trying to dive into that. And Spencer was a, was a big help in that kind of, kind of teaching me some things and getting me back on my feet to at least have an understanding. Uh, I'm still not good, but I at least have a better understanding of it. Uh, and so he was, he was a help with that. So learned a lot from him and then spent almost a couple years together. I left to go to the train division. He stayed there and ultimately got promoted. And then I was lucky enough to have him back in my battalion. Uh, now as, as he's the captain over at Station 10, so he's in my battalion again, which is awesome. So one of the main reasons, there's a lot of reasons that I, that I chose him was, you know, he's, he's a mission focused guy. You know, like everybody that comes to work every day, it's, it's about the job, it's about going fire, it's about going to medical emergencies. Like we have fun too, obviously, but it's, it's, it's about the job. He has a good way of just being a teacher and instructing and just connecting with people and understanding how the ways different people learn. He's a force multiplier that people trust, trust him because he does the right thing. You know, that he's, he's credible, he has a good reputation. So people will, they'll look to Spencer for advice. They know he's got their back and because that they, they'll follow him and then they're going to, they're going to, again, they're going to take that sample that he's provided and give it to others. So he's kind of a force multiplier in that way. And, and the, the other reason is that I chose him was one, he's at the time I did the challenge, he was a recently promoted captain and coming out of special operations and I don't want anybody to take this the wrong way, but this is just the way it is. In special operations stations typically you get people that I don't want to say like want to do the job more. I don't know how to frame it. But a lot of self starters. Right. They don't really need a whole lot of motivation because special operations stations just, they just generally draw those types of people who self start. They have a lot of initiative. They want to do a little bit more than you know, what the department generally offers. And I can remember that being a lieutenant at Station 7. I had that at Station 14. And now Spencer being pulled out of that environment and put in gen pop as we would call it. Yes, certainly you could still have those, those self starters, those motivated. I'm not saying that the other stations outside that don't have that, but it's. How do I now how do I take these people outside of my.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Yeah.

[Chief Sergey]

My typical environment and maybe lead these people, motivate them, encourage them when maybe I wouldn't have otherwise had to do so.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Yeah.

[Chief Sergey]

At this different station because it's just a different type of environment. You know, so those, those are the reasons. And you know, I think he's, he has a lot to offer our department. He has a lot to offer to the fire service in general. And I know I was stoked to be able to keep him when he got promoted to captain and hopefully we can, hopefully we continue working together for as long as we could. But yeah, that's, that's it. Sweet.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Well that's awesome. I mean I. To go with what you're saying. I think what you said, you, you kind of knew what you were getting. You knew the individual, you knew his work ethic, you knew what he was all about, you knew his attitude and he was a go getter and yeah like you say, take him out of the environment and put him elsewhere. I think, I mean, I think, I think that's part of it is you called it the gen pop but it's, it's. Sometimes you just, it goes out. I think you and I probably talked a little bit about this on our, on the show and we talked is being a little bit uncomfortable doing something that you are, are not typically used to, but you grow that way as well. Whether you go from like a special op station to a non or from a non to a special op station, there's massive growth to happen either Direction.

[Chief Sergey]

So there was. And that's what I had. I. When I made captain, I went from being a lieutenant at special operations stations for, for about three years, all the same types of things I just talked about to. I mean, one, it was the slowest engine in the city. There were some senior people there and it's like, whoa, this is not what I'm used to. This is not what I. I don't like this. You know, I had to figure out how to adjust.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

All right, well, I think we know a little bit about Spencer already. And Spencer's here, you know, chomping at the bit here. But I'll, I'll introduce Spencer. So Today we welcome Captain Spencer Davis. He's an 18 year student of the fire service and a 4th generation firefighter. For the last 12 years, he's been with the city of Norfolk, Virginia. He has served most his career assigned to one of the city's heavy rescue companies, both as a firefighter and as a lieutenant. After recent promotion, he's now the captain of Engine Company 10, located on the city's east side in the 3rd Battalion. Prior to working in Norfolk, he was a firefighter paramedic in a rural combination fire department on Virginia's Eastern Shore. Captain Davis is a rescue specialist on FEMA Urban Search and Rescue, Virginia Task Force 2, based out of Virginia Beach. He's an instructor of the Virginia Department of Fire Programs, VA Department of Emergency Management and Take the Door Training LLC, based out of Syracuse, NY, focusing primarily on special operations, specifically rope access machinery, entrapments, urban search and rescue, and hazardous materials response. My script here says good morning, Cap, but it's really. Good afternoon, Cap. Thanks for being here. How are you?

[Captain Spencer Davis]

I'm doing well. How are you?

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

I'm doing well. How's the. How's the newborn? Although I found out the other day, not a newborn. One years old. Yes.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

One month old. So what?

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Oh, one month old.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

One month old. One month old yesterday. Yes.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Why did I think one year? Okay, so how's the sleep?

[Captain Spencer Davis]

It's good. It's like being at work a few times after midnight, you know?

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

That's not bad. A few times? Yeah, it depends. It's a few dozen times or a few times. So remind me. Boy. Little boy.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

He's a little girl.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Little girl. See, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get one of these correct.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

50. 50.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

I'm gonna get 50. 50. And that's why I don't gamble anymore, because I just got two wrong in a row. Well, thanks for being here on the show. Thanks for accepting Chief Sergi's leadership challenge today. But before we get going, would you mind sharing a little bit about Captain Spencer Davis before we just dive into leadership?

[Captain Spencer Davis]

Sure. I grew up in the fire profession like I had no other choice. My. My father was a fireman here in the city where I work. I grew up riding the fire trucks with him from the time I was a little kid. And I was just kind of immersed in it. I started volunteering probably at about 15, 16 years old and really just kind of fell in love with the job and liked it so much I said, well, why wouldn't I be paid for it? So fresh out of high school, I'd been accepted to a few colleges and I just decided at this point, I know what I want to do for a living. And I was ready to be a firefighter. So I got picked up by the county in which I live, Accomac county on the eastern shore of Virginia. It's a combination fire department that serves about 40,000 people. There's 12 firehouses over there and they're supplemented as volunteer firehouses with career staffing. So I was picked up by them. They sent me to school over in Newport News to receive my back. Then we called it EMT Enhanced, which is currently like the modern day national registry Advanced curriculum. So I got my enhanced with them. I had already received my firefighter training while I was in high school, so I had, I was ready to start work for them. And I was there for about two and a half years. Very rural. Typically when it came to the EMS side of things, we were transporting patients from 25 minutes to an hour away to hospitals. The call volume was significantly lower than where I work now. However, like, patient acuity was pretty high. We had pretty sick people here where we live, it's very rural, so very bad car wrecks and, you know, things like that. So my goal when I was hired at 18, I remember in my interview they asked me, they're like, where do you see yourself in five years? I was like, well, hopefully in the city of Norfolk. And. And they didn't take offense to that. They kind of knew that at that point in my career, young and wanting to go somewhere busy, that it was kind of a stepping stone. And I took every chance I could to, you know, obtain classes from them and learned as much as I could and had some. Some great role models early on in my career there. And that put me coming into Norfolk. I think I was 21 when I finished rookie school there, which we have about an eight to nine month academy that we, that we do start to finish. Regardless of the time, regardless of prior experience you went through and you did it the Norfolk way, which I still am very thankful for. We've changed our, we've changed our models up depending on staffing wise. We have what we call special hires or lateral hires like a lot of fire departments do. And I'm very thankful that I did kind of learn that had that restart and kind of learned it from the, the fresh, you know, fresh mind of being, you know, just like everybody else. Because there was plenty that I thought I knew coming in as a 21 year old kid who was already, you know, a paramedic and had some experience and I learned a ton in that academy. So I was very thankful for that. And then I was fortunate. So really I'd come to Norfolk with, you know, I had some very basic vehicle extrication classes and maybe even a rope class here or there. But I really had no interest in the technical rescue world. I grew up like my father was an engine captain. He was at a busy engine company as his time as a fireman down at Engine two, which carried a lot of pride for engine company officers. And so all that I really knew was, you know, kind of his career path. And just by sheer chance I landed at a technical rescue firehouse, Fire Station 14. And I kind of fell in love with all the technical rescue world. I had a ton of senior people. It's, you know, it's very different nowadays. I mean, I think the next junior person in line for me may have had 10 years on the job. And there was guys in that firehouse that had 25, 30, 35 years when I arrived. So I had a ton of resources, ton of assets there that really helped me and developed me and put a real special interest in making sure that I understood and knew how to perform the job. And that just opened up doors elsewhere. After a few years of being at 14, I became a field training instructor on the EMS side of the house. I was able to ride and develop and train our future paramedics and our attendant in charge, as we call them, the AICS. Opportunity presented three or four years in that the FEMA Urban Search and Rescue Team Virginia Task Force 2, based out of Virginia beach, had several vacancies due to retirements and attrition and things like that. And I was fortunate enough to be picked up as a rescue specialist pretty early on. And I still, I say that's simply because of timing, not exactly my skill set. I mean, I was still very, very new in my career, but that just kind of allows things just continue to evolve, continue to branch. And my, you know, interest for the, the technical rescue world, hazardous materials, all the special operations stuff, it's kind of where I put a lot of my focus for the first 10, 10 to 11 years of my career was pretty heavily focused in the special operations community.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

So I'm intrigued. Before we get into that, the team building aspect of all this is you went from being a firefighter. Paramedic.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

Yes, yes.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

That's how you start. And then you went over to.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

When I worked in Akomat County, I was what we called a fire medic, or I was a firefighter and a paramedic in a combination department. Yeah, I applied and was hired by an awful fire rescue, starting off as a, As a recruit.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Okay, right, right.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

I was just a recruit firefighter. And we hire everyone at the time everyone was hired and was trained to the skill set of firefighter and EMT enhanced or EMT advanced.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Got it.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

Once we graduate rookie school and you finish your probationary period of about a year, then you have the ability to move into becoming an EMT intermediate at the time and a paramedic. Because we do both. We are. We ride the ambulance half the shift for 12 hours. The other half we're on the fire apparatus.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Got it.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

So I had already come in with that training. And so shortly, six months into my rookie year, I was able to complete our. We have development books that are set for, for everything. Probationary advanced life support, driving engines, driving ladders.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Yeah.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

And so I was able to complete my probationary book early, begin working on my attendant in charge to be an ALS provider. And then I was released to be doing both roles, firefighter and a paramedic.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Got it. Got it. All right, so my question is this is you went from being a firefighter. Paramedic, for the most part, you went over and you went back to recruit school and then you became a firefighter and then you were not really into the tech world, but then after, you know, learning a little bit about you and being so involved with urban search and rescue and all the heavy machinery, entrapments, search and rescue, hazmat, all that. Can you talk a little bit about, because you mentioned timing too. Right. Sometimes we don't get to pick when we get to do things. Right. Sometimes if you, if you sit back and wait, that. That opportunity doesn't come. So sometimes you have to step up earlier than you want it or even step up from an opportunity you think you may not have ever wanted. So as we talk leadership today, can you talk about that experience for you? First of all, not necessarily being interested in tech world, but then also taking advantage of a timing that helped propel your career. We'll say, right?

[Captain Spencer Davis]

And it's true. I mean, timing is everything with our job. And there's sometimes, like, I look at people and, you know, you sit around a firehouse with a few company officers, and maybe they have one problem child or someone they're griping about and they're talking about that person, and I look at them, I'm like, maybe they just didn't have the opportunities. Like, I feel very, very fortunate that, like I said, I had no interest in going to the busiest firehouse in the city. That's just not one that was ever on my radar. And I happened to land there. And then when I landed there, I landed there with a stellar crew, very senior, very, you know, very experienced, very well respected. And that just kind of teed up my future. That the same per, you know, one of my classmates that graduated with me that may have even come to the same firehouse didn't even have the same opportunity. So I still say that the vast majority of my career, I feel like it's just fallen into place because of timing and being around the right people. And I guess some would say that, you know, it's not all to chance. Right. It maybe has something to do with a work ethic and evolvement and involvement, checking on things. But for the most part, I feel like timing has really played a crucial role in a lot of my advancement.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Would you. Would you say that in the last, say, five years, 10 years, any professional career move that you or change that you took advantage of, Was there ever a time where you said, you know what? I wish I hadn't done that? Meaning, like, because, you know, sometimes we put ourselves out there and it's scary. You're like, oh, should I be doing this? Or.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

Right.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

What the hell did I get into? But I'm sure you've had that feeling in any of these. Yeah. So not thinking forward now, is there a time where you're like, you know what? I wish I'd never done that? Or are you saying to yourself, do you find yourself saying, wow, so glad I did that?

[Captain Spencer Davis]

Well, I think it's. I think I have both of those feelings, and it's just in timing, right? So there's been countless times, like, I remember I didn't really have that feeling, like, becoming a paramedic, like, moving up through the ranks of, like, medical knowledge. Like, when I was, you know, an EMT basic, and I saw these guys doing these high level, these cool skills and really turning people around and making them, you know, get better. I'm like, this is. This is really cool. I want to do that. I want to. I want to be that person. So I didn't really have it as much moving up through the ranks of the EMT to an enhanced and intermediate and paramedic. But I can tell you that each time in the fire department that I advanced, right, it's not all of those are necessarily promotions. When I first started riding the rescue company, we have a process in our city where once you have the core classes that are required to be one of those members, you have to sit for an examination, you take a written test, you do practical skills, you get ranked, you get put on a list. And as positions become available, you're able to fall into one of those spots before then. We have what we call backup members. Basically, you are not an official rescue company member, but you're able to act in that capacity. And I remember the days of sliding over as. As the fourth person over on the rescue and thinking this was the coolest thing in the world. I've got these super senior guys that go to all the fires in the city riding right next to me. I'm learning so much from them every single day. And then, boom, four years into my career now, I've sat for the test. I've tested well. I was offered a position. I was able to stay in my same company that was housed at the same firehouse where I was as a probationary member. So I had a great rapport with all of the officers and. And members of that firehouse already. And now I'm the guy. Now I'm the. I'm the rescue person. I'm the rescue company member who is now responsible for. I have to know the job. I have to train the junior members below me how to do my job. And I remember just thinking, man, like, it was pretty nice to just be the guy as the extra person, you know, like, just. I was able to hold onto their coattails, and they showed me the way. And now very quickly, like, I feel like I don't have a ton of experience under my belt, and I've kind of been thrown into that position. And then a few months go by, maybe, you know, a year or so, and you're handling calls correctly, and things are going great, and your reputation's building, and you're really enjoying the job. And you're like, you know what? I remember being nervous about this just a few months ago, and now it wouldn't have it any other way. And I feel like that's kind of tracked the same way. Like, I was the same way when I became an officer. Like, I, I remember getting promoted. I got promoted at a Fire Station 14. I went to Fire Station 7, which is like our sister station for special operations. We used to joke around. Well, either way, I used to joke around because, you know, with 14 comes some personality. And it's the busiest firehouse. There's just a lot of, you know.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Yeah.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

And so we always joked and said that, you know, Station 7 was like our JV squad. They're a little bit slower. They're a beautiful part of town. They're right in the college campus. I mean, it's, it's very envious of us, you know, And I went over there and that was the first time that I'd left 14, really. And it was quite the slowdown. The call volume was, was significantly different, slower the types of calls we had. But I remember thinking, like, what have I done? Like here I've gone from being in the busiest firehouse, going to, you know, very frequent sick people, good fires, bad wrecks every day, to quite a slowdown and covet hit. So I was promoted in 2020 right in the middle of COVID So I went to a slower part of the city. And really the only. The major driving force of their call volume is their college campus, which was pretty much shut down because of COVID And so I remember just thinking, like, man, what have I done to myself? Like, I had no reason. Like, I had seven years in, maybe eight years in the fire department when I got promoted. And I was like, maybe I've just rushed all this away too quickly. And then shortly after being there, I realized it's a different firehouse, but it's. These battalions in our city is very small. It's only 60 square miles, but they're very different. Like, all three of those battalions are like working in three completely different cities, oddly enough. And on the rescue, you know, I'd run, I'd run fires in all three battalions, but until you're stationed down there and you're going on the, the typical calls of that area and their response districts, like, you just don't know what you don't know.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Yeah.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

And when I got to Fire Station 7 and we're responding to multiple high rise buildings to all of the college campus, we're responding to four or five different naval shipyards and marine industries for, you know, technical rescue work. Like, here I was this. I, you know, beating my chest, this awesome tech rescue firefighter. And in my old firehouse, that consisted of we go to house fires and we cut people out of cars very frequently. Took me going all the way downtown to go on my first navy ship for first technical rescue. Rope work for high angle and elevator shafts that are blind. Shaft elevators. Like all this stuff that I used to just kind of scoff and be. God, yeah, they're the slow. They're the JV squad. And I'm like, yeah, it's a whole nother world here. And then I started really to embrace it. And I'm like, I don't even know why I didn't like this spot at first. The guys are great. The firehouse is in great condition. It's in a pretty cool district, and you're seeing stuff every day that for the first eight years of my career, I didn't even know existed in my own center. So it's kind of the same thing there. Like, I just. I very quickly went from thinking, maybe you had some regret as to my decisions to, you know what, Everything's happening for a reason. I'm falling.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

So you wouldn't.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

You wouldn't take anything back, right?

[Captain Spencer Davis]

I mean, not at all.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Yeah. So I mean, I guess that kind of goes without saying is a lot of individuals will say get. They get comfortable and say a spot. And many would not promote because they're like, I love my spot. I love the station of the calls. I love the crew. But sometimes we don't like what you said. Sometimes you don't recognize. Like, yeah, you might get pulled out of your station crew, the battalion, whatever, and you might go to the station that you. That you just will say hate, hate, or never want to go to. But many times it ends up being like, what you said. You're like, well, there's a whole new world out here. There's so much I would have learned. And I don't. I wouldn't take any of that back.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

Right.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

So, I mean, that's. That goes without saying. I. I love that you say that because there's. There's. We see that oftentimes where, you know, we see individuals that just get. I don't even want to say stale. Right. That's the wrong word. People stay motivated and they do a great job, but there are a lot of leaders out there that. That can be great leaders in different positions, but they end up staying.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

And so and one term they like to say in our fire department, if you stay somewhere too long, they like to call it that they feel like maybe you're getting complacent. And I don't even necessarily know if stagnant or complacent's the word, but.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Right. It's.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

You may be very good at that one particular skill or that one particular area, but you don't realize the untapped potential that you may find by going somewhere else and then what you can actually bring back. So, I mean, I was only at Fire Station 7 for just under a year. Then a rescue company officer position opened up, and I was fortunate enough to. To land one of those. And that's when Jared and I came back to 14 together on the same day. At that point, you know, I was able to bring back a ton, like just in a short time, right? 10 months or so, different experience levels and people that I had worked with and conversations I'd had a shift change over, different types of calls that I was quickly able to bring back to my old firehouse where I was very comfortable. That's where I spent most of my career. But I was able to bring skill sets and experience back from, you know, 10 miles away. And so it just. It paid dividends going down there, and I was really thankful for it as well as the officers I had there. So that was my first experience, you know, being a company officer, too. So I was out of my. Out of my wheelhouse, out of my comfort zone of being a firefighter. I had a senior captain there who taught me a ton. Had a. Had a lieutenant who was on the rescue company there. It was housed with me. I was a ladder lieutenant who was able to really instill a lot of things in me as well. So I was able to bring a bunch of that back to 14.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

So that's awesome. That's awesome. I want to lean on something real quick. Chief, from a chief perspective, Spencer just talked about, you know, I love the word you said, Spencer. Untapped potential. So from the B.C. standpoint, how would you achieve. How would you, I guess, tap into that untapped potential? When we're talking about individuals, say, in your battalion, whether it be firefighters or just say the company officers in your battalion that you. That you oversee, like getting them to, you know what, it's time for you to move up. So, yes, you might get moved out of this battalion, you might get moved out of the. The cool area, if you will. But how. What. What are you. What are some things that you do what you say, you motivate to get people to say, you know, go learn something new. You've been your 10 years. I think you can go learn at that different or that other station.

[Chief Sergey]

Well, it's not always easy. The one.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Exactly.

[Chief Sergey]

They typically don't want to. Right. But I always, just like you guys kind of already mentioned, like, I always try to show them the value in going somewhere. And I just, I try to lean on my own personal experiences, you know, that, that experience that I told you at 12, I did not want to go there. Like, I, I tell people all the time, like, I was pouting when I found out I got that assignment and I was doing everything I could do to get out of it. I was trying to politic my way out of it. And I was going. And that's where I went. And it ultimately was a good assignment for me, you know, But I always try to tell people just kind of the same thing. Like you've. If you've accomplished, if you feel like you're that good here, then why not go and get better at doing something else? And like, one of the first things that came to mind when you asked me that question was my driver that I had. He was a ladder driver, had been on a ladder for a while. He was downtown on a ladder on a tower. Specifically, he goes to another tower. I pulled him out. I could have left him on the, I could have left him on the, the ladder to drive, but I pulled him off and made him drive the engine. And, and that's exactly what he. I never forget. He's like, I don't know why you're pulling me off of this ladder. I'm a good operator. And I said, well, that's exactly why I'm pulling you off this ladder is because you, you have like, you've done well here. Like, now it's time for you to go try to master this other skill set. And the, the best thing people can do is just try to immerse their self in that role, that place, that district. It's like downtown. Someone might not want to love going downtown, but now they're going to be surrounded by high rises and fire protection systems and complex buildings, difficult stretches, you know, complex searches, like all these little things you can take advantage of, or you can go to that station and you can sit and throw your hands in the air and you can pout like I wanted to do, and you'll learn nothing about that district. And I've seen that because people will come out of those assignments or those Opportunities. And they won't, they're not pulling any value out of it. Like using the downtown thing against like I could pull somebody that was stationed downtown for 10 years, they don't know anything about putting out a high rise fire. They can't walk me through pump room. They can't. Like, they did not immerse themselves in that opportunity. So I always try to tell people, like, just step outside yourself for a second. And you know, I tell them if they were giving advice to somebody else who is in their position, what advice would they give to that person? You know, and sometimes they see it and sometimes they do, sometimes they leave frustrated. And I always try to remind them, like, look, you can, you're gonna leave upset and, and it's okay to be upset. And I know you're upset, but come talk to me in a year and let me know if. Yes, if you found value, you know, in, in this assignment. So I just try to encourage them to, to one, be open minded. To two, know that there's a lot of different opportunities that the fire department offers and sometimes you don't see it right in front of you. You don't usually understand it or grasp it until it's in your rearview mirror. But just try to tell them, like, hey, there's value in this assignment. There's value in challenging yourself. There's value in trying to take on a new skill set or learn something new and it'll make you a more well rounded firefighter. And yeah, again, sometimes they're like, you know, that's good advice. I need to, I need to look at that way. Or sometimes like, that sounds great, but I still don't want to go. I'm like, that's the best advice I got for you. Yeah.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

No, and I think that's, I think if we were to pull right. This is totally casual, anecdotal, I have no statistics on this. If you were to pull 100 firefighters across the country and do this, we'll call this project, if you will, you pull them out of busy areas, you put them in rural areas, you pull some out of rural area, put them in the tech rescue station, you put a tech rescue guy and make them go hazmat, whatever. I don't know, out of 100 people, you might get 90 that you ask them a year later, like you said, you're like, wow, that was actually awesome. Will you get some that are like still pissy after all that? Yeah, yeah, it says everything. So I think that's such a, it's such a testament that's why I want to ask you both that same question. Because it's like, I think, I think that's where the growth happens is it's just getting pulling into assignments, into something that you never even thought yourself would, that you do, or something that you definitely don't want to do, but then you end up doing it. You're like, all right, well, I got a newfound respect for this thing, or I'm glad I did it. And building a team. Spencer so had mentioned that building a team that others want to be a part of was kind of one of the key aspects, if you will, regarding, you know, leadership. And so can you run with how to build a good team and why it's so important and key in the fire service from a leadership standpoint, I.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

Feel like you have to have that buy in, right? So if, if you're building a team that people truly want to be a part of, then they're going to do the things that you ask of them simply because they want to be there, they want to be successful, they want to have a good time. Word travels quickly, right? So when neighboring firehouses or, you know, maybe on the other shifts are seeing that your crew's doing things together, training frequently, having a good time, going to events away from work together, simple things like, you know, building company T shirts or just small little things like that, that kind of build that camaraderie. And a lot of that just comes from you have to take the time as an officer and you really have to get to know your people. And like, I remember coming in, the good thing about, like our city, we have, we're about 500 to 550 firefighters, but for the most part, it's pretty quick with overtime and of course, the new dreaded mandatories. You meet everybody, you're starting to kind of put the names to faces and, you know, people. But it's a different level when you get assigned with them and you really have to kind of take that time and truly, like, learn who they are. You know, you may have known somebody who's been on your shift for 10 plus years, but you don't really know that. Some of the finer details that I think as an officer, it's your responsibility to understand and, and it has to be like, it has to be organic. Like, you can't just kind of do the, the fake route of just like, you really have to try to build relationships with people and, and simple things like knowing when their birthdays are, knowing how many children they have, knowing the ages of their children, you know, meeting their spouses, like things like that, that I feel, I mean you're with that person at least a third of the year and you have to have that relationship. And I feel like if you can just take that time and of course it's not going to come overnight. You know, I get assigned to a firehouse and within a first few shifts I'm not going to know, you know, the difference. The guys and the girls in my firehouse know their kids names and things. But, but that comes with time and that's just where you have to have conversations. And I believe that that doesn't always have to be fire service related. Like you have to be able to sit and live with people and talk about things outside of the fire service too, which is rare coming for me because I'm kind of a nerd when it comes to the fire department. But, but you have to have those relationships with people and I think that showing them that you truly do care and you care for the right reasons, that opens the door for them to be able to have, buy into you and to kind of embrace what you're trying to bring to the team. So. And then even just when it comes to building the team is just having like pride in your assignment. Right. So I told you that my background up until now as a brand new captain has been the special operations world, the rescue company. Well before then, when I came off the rescue, just as a short time before getting promoted, I went to a ladder company. So. And I'm not saying you have to fake it and I truly do believe that you have to immerse yourself in the company in which you're assigned. Yeah. And so I quickly when I transitioned from the rescue to a, to a ladder company, it was the ladders. You know, the ladder's the best thing in the world. I guess that's a team you're assigned to and that's, that's what you have to truly believe if you want them to be the best.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Yeah.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

And same thing in the engine. So I was, I'm kind of the opposite of how Chief Sergi was. He has a very strong engine background from being an engine company firefighter. And the vast majority of his training that he would push out was in the engine world. That was not me. So aside from riding an engine as a relatively new firefighter and getting my development books done and driving and pumping several fires, other than that my engine involvement was very limited. And part of that I blame on me because I was, I had interest in elsewhere because where my assignments were, and I probably should have tried to stay a little more well rounded of that side of the house. But coming back to an engine company as a station commander, as a fire captain, that's. It was almost new to me. Not new, but it was, it was just unfamiliar. And I have to immerse myself in that. And right now, that is, that's the pinnacle. You know, the engine is the best because that's, that's where I'm at. And that's what, that's what I want my team to understand is wherever I am is what my plan is, is they're going to be the best.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Yeah. I'm gonna ask chief on this as well, but I'll start with you. What is considered a. A winning team in the. In the firehouse?

[Captain Spencer Davis]

So what I would say a winning team is people coming to work, people being positive. Now, obviously, everyone's going to have their days, and I'm going to certainly give you, you know, everybody's got it, you know, has a mulligan with their bad days. But for the most part, a winning team is one that can come together, can communicate very well together, can joke on each other and have that, that kind of fun family relationship, but have a willingness and a drive to want to learn, to want to perform, to be a performer, to have that mindset of like, there's a fine line, I think, between confidence and cockiness. And I want a team that's confident and I want that to come from. Because they train hard, they perform well on calls, they get kudos from other company officers and from other chief officers because they're, you know, they're performers. And I think all of that together will really build a winning team. When there's nothing cooler than going to a firehouse as a new captain and getting text messages and phone calls of people asking to come to my firehouse, I think that's very cool. When people are saying, I really like what you're doing over there, people are talking. It's, it's. We're having a great time. People are learning a lot. It's a fun place to work, and I want to come be a part of that team. I think that's, I think that's very cool. And that doesn't necessarily come from me. That comes from the lieutenant I have assigned with me, comes from my senior operators, comes from the firefighters that put the work in day in and day out. Because the deal is we are a busy firehouse. So even though I came from another, you know, the busiest in the city. This one I think was the second or third busiest engine. So with all of the fun that we have, the training that we put in, we have very busy work schedules. It comes with long nights. It comes with, you know, we're running 15 and 20 calls a day. And if people are still expressing interest and wanting to come be a part of that. Yeah, I take that as. That's a good thing.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

So. Yeah, you built something special there. Right.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

And it's just a short time and, and it's pretty cool because I can't even say that like I cherry pick people.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Right.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

I inherited a crew like that. That company had been there before me. I think I may have maybe brought one or two over, but for the most part that crew was already there. And like they, I guess they embraced me, they were happy to have me. They've had some great officers in the past and unfortunately, just because of, I don't know, just the kind of the transition we're going through right now, I feel like officers have become a revolving door where it used to be. I mean, I went years and years with the same core group of officers and now you're lucky if you get one for six months.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Yeah.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

So. And that's what I told them when I got there is I was really hoping to bring some stability there. Hopefully to keep me there for at least, at least a year. Yeah.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Right.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

Because that's just kind of where we're at right now in the fire department. It's. We're having a great time and yeah, really enjoying it. And like, even like Chief Sergey said, you know, typically your, your self starters, your self promoters, they, they find themselves at the firehouses that ask a little bit more of you because you know, whether it be at a boathouse or the hazardous materials or the technical rescue, just because it brings a little something more. Typically, the people that really have a vested interest in the job find themselves there in our city. And Station 10, where I'm at now is like we joke around with. That is one of the general population, the gen pop firehouses. And I can tell you I feel like I inherited a rock star crew there. Like, even though they're very like, some of them are very new. I have people from five or six months on the street up to. I have operators and some senior firefighters with 20 plus years. And I mean they're, they gel well, they work great on the incidents. I mean they, they truly as being a busy house where you can very quickly become jaded on medical calls. They perform high levels of Care. They. They hold others accountable. So even though I'm outside of that special operations world, I feel like I still have that same alpha personality and just a go getter.

[Chief Sergey]

Absolutely.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

Which is cool because I didn't build that. You know, they. They already had that in them before I got there.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

So. Yeah. Chief, how do you build what. What's a winning team in the firehouse?

[Chief Sergey]

A lot of what Spencer said, and from. From my perspective, especially as a new battalion chief, like, one of the things that I've learned already, I've said it to several people, is like, I'm not a captain anymore, right? And so I've. I'm still learning my place one. And then just knowing that, like, I'm not there. Like, I guess what I'm trying to say is I've already realized just how quickly or I've realized very fast just how much I have to trust company officers. Right. To do all those things that Spencer just talked about. Right. Because I'm not in the firehouse every day. That's not my firehouse to run. You know, I'm just kind of. I'm just kind of renting room at 14 now. Like, I'm not the captain there. You know, I try to. Try to be a good battalion chief, but they run their stations and I try to let them do that. So it's like, from my perspective, like, I. It's. It's non negotiable. They have to do all those things every single day. And a lot of what he already said, you know, working on establishing that good trust within the. Within the station by working on those relationships, if you can create a condition in that firehouse where people are holding each other accountable, which is. That's great. You know, in fact, somebody. We worked. We worked yesterday, right? Yeah, we worked yesterday. One of the lieutenants came up to me, he said, hey, on Tuesday, I know you normally hang out for lineup, but as soon as it's over, I need you to leave. Like, no problem. Yeah, like, he's just. He's like, I got some stuff I need to bring up with the crew, and they're gonna have some conversations amongst each other. I'm like, no problem. I don't need to know anything more than that's none of my business at this point, you know, so creating that environment where people hold themselves and hold each other accountable is good. They're focused on their training and, and you know, why we exist as a fire department, and that's to. To go to fires and medical emergencies, and then when there's Downtime.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Of course.

[Chief Sergey]

Enjoy downtime. You know, you got to do that every now and then. But we're also preparing to go to fires and medical emergencies, and they. And they take that seriously.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Yeah.

[Chief Sergey]

There's also got to be some fun, right? There's got to be some. Some sense of humor. But the one thing that has to be tempered is the fun. Not. Not so much the shenanigans, which. Which I would say are healthy, but just the. Like, I've seen firehouses, and I remember I walked into a firehouse one time as a lieutenant where, like, they were having a blast, and they had this confidence about them, but the. The competency didn't match. You know what I'm saying? So. So that's one thing. And I. And I've said it to company officers, as recently, it's like, hey, it's okay to have a good time here. Right? But when the brass hits, I have to be able to count on you. And if all we're doing is having fun and we're not focusing on the job, it's. There's an imbalance. Right? Like, and it's. It's. It's a teeter totter. And the last thing is just having that. That infectious pride, like doing little things to initiate pride and ownership within the station. Because, again, people see it. They see it like, hey, what's going on over there? Station 10, what's going on over there? What's. What's. Like, why are they coming to work with the same types of uniforms I wear, same rigs, the same pay, the same fire chief, the same everything else? But they're having a ball over in this station, and they're. They're miserable over there. Like, what's going on? Over. Something's happening over there that I could try to recreate.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Yeah, I love that. I love that. I remember you and I talked about that. It's so. It's so true. It's like, why? What are they doing over there? And let's replicate that. Right? That positivity. I know, Spencer, you mentioned that, too. I think you led it off with the qu. Your answer was that positivity. And I know we talk about this on this show a lot is negativity is. It works like, it's more powerful. So if you're going to be that negative person, that negative culture, that's gonna. That's gonna be easy to replicate. Positivity is difficult, but that's something we need to work toward because positivity leads us in the progression, the direction we Want. Negative negativity does not.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

So it's contagious. I mean, it's. So, yeah, I could easily sit around and gripe and trust me, I do at times, but I feel like you have to kind of know your crowd of who you gripe to. And like, I truly feel just like Saving Private Ryan, you know, when he talks about.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

When he talks about, you know, I don't. I don't, you know, go up, they don't go down.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Exactly.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

I truly believe that. And I find myself, I'll curb that sometimes. Like, sometimes I'll let those firefighters, if they need a gripe, I let them gripe amongst each other. But I don't necessarily need to be in the room while they're doing it. And I certainly have my gripes at times and I try to. To not do it as much in front of them.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Right.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

Because that just nothing comes of it.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Yeah, exactly.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

To the table. And it's just aimless bitching.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Yeah.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

It's not really good for anything.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Right. So we just talked about team building. Right. We talked about positivity. We talked about what builds that winning culture. I'm sure credibility has something to do with that as well. So as we talk about, you know, Chief talked about competency.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

Right.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

It's got to match the competency and that energy and that having fun. Everything's got to match. It's got to be balanced. You can't just be all on one side and not the other. But as far as credibility, you know, we all got to be credible individuals. We got all got to be competent. So how does one maintain, but then also form credibility to obviously build that winning culture.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

When it comes to like forming your credibility and maintaining it, you need to try to be that company officer that you wanted to have as a firefighter. And so. And I don't like yet again, timing is everything. I don't exactly have a large Rolodex of people to pull from to go. I had poor company officers and I would never want to do this. There's some benefit to that, right?

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Absolutely.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

You're not always going to have rock stars and you're going to have some things that you take away from people that you're like, ah, probably wasn't the best move or I probably wouldn't have done that. But I can say, you know, my eight years of being a firefighter before becoming a lieutenant, I really, I really didn't have a great deal of that to pull from. I had awesome officers, which is very cool because I felt like There was a trend that these people who I spoke highly of, being my lieutenants and my captains also had great credibility as they were good firefighters. Like, oh, yeah, that was your captain. He was a good fireman. And like we tell our red shirts, our probationary firefighters all the time, when you step in the firehouse, the very first time that you ever step in there, you're going to be getting judged, you're going to be getting evaluated on every little thing you do, how quickly you get on the truck to how quickly you jump up from dinner to help, you know, clean the, clean our galley or kitchen or Navy town, so we call it a galley. Just everything you do, you're under a microscope. And one thing that I truly don't think we always tell our officers as much is that holds true as well. When it comes time for you to promote that same person that you were being, you know, that you were evaluating because they were a brand new probationary firefighter. All of your other fellow firefighters remember everything that you do and every corner that you would cut or every motivation or positivity you bring to the firehouse, that all kind of gets tucked away, too, when it comes time for promotion, that it's not just, oh, I'm a lieutenant today, my church colors changed and now I have some Bugles and some more responsibility. And so now you will listen to me, like, people remember who you were. And I'm not saying, like, you're going to have to change some. Like, I, there's some things that I would do probably as a firefighter that I'm not allowed to do as a, you know, as a lieutenant or a captain, as a company officer. Certainly some of that probably comes with maturity. But there, there's some change that has to take place during that transition. But for the most part, you can't just change your entire personality simply because your responsibility and maybe your rank has changed.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Yes. To go with that. I mean, people, they know who you are.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

Right.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

And prior to, and after getting the bars on your caller. So like you said, I, I think that's one thing that I guess leaders of all ranks will kind of lose credibility quickly is certainly all of a sudden, oh, now you're that guy. Yesterday you're breaking the rules with me. Now you're enforcing the rules that you and I broke yesterday.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

So, and some of that's going to happen. Right. Like some of the things like what I tell, you know, tell the crew about, like, maybe it's an online training thing or whatever the case may be where I, you Know, have to get on the guys about. But certainly things that I, I slipped by the wayside or didn't prioritize as a firefighter. But I also think a lot of that comes with the delivery of how you. How you do things. Like, you just can't. They're people. Right. I feel like the hardest part of this job is not the tactics exactly. It's truly managing people, talking to people, learning how to just how to get your information through to people without being offensive, yet being confident. There's just a balance that comes with that. Going back to it, though, I feel like just one part of that credibility is having. Having a good mentor or role model. And like, I feel like if you can just be attached to, like, if you find. I remember there was a. When I was a. A brand new. I was in rookie school, so I was a recruit. And like I told you before, I really had no interest in any of the special stuff, the ropes, all that, the trenches and things like that. Hazmat especially. That was always just kind of one that I was scoffed at. That's. That's nerdy stuff. It's. It's hard information. It's just not very fun. And I remember being in school and there was a senior firefighter. He's a. He's a current rescue operator, and he was teaching us some hazardous materials. He was teaching some of the rope and vehicle extrication. And like, he was just so calm, knowledgeable, educated. And I was like, that's. And his. And he was a paramedics. Like, he's got all these hard things going for him that he gets pulled in so many directions in the department, and yet he's performing all of them so well. From my eyes of being. Have a little bit of experience coming in of knowing that if this guy's. He's this sharp doing all this stuff, I want to be like that guy. And so I feel like if you find those. Those mentors and I was never stationed with him the rest of my career. Like, I've taught alongside of him. I've worked overtime shifts with him. But as far as I've never truly worked beside that person. And yet I kind of put him up on that pedestal. Like, I want to be like that guy. And then I feel like that's just happened throughout the rest of my career with company officers as well. And so you really have to have that mentor that kind of guides you. And they don't have to. You don't have. I talked about before being fortunate enough to be stationed with Somebody or being assigned to a good firehouse from the get go, you don't have to have that. There's people in your department or maybe in your neighboring department or, you know, with social media now, you find somebody on the other side of the, on the west coast and you find somebody that you can emulate and that you respect. And if you put them up there and really try to follow after them, I feel like that also can kind of help to form credibility as well and kind of maintain your own.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Yeah, Chief, how about you? Credibility, how true is this statement? I guess this will go to both of you. It takes years to build your reputation. Takes hours to lose it, but obviously reputation's huge. But how does one build and maintain that credibility from, let's say a transitioning individual from a firefighter to an officer or leadership role? I mean, credibility is huge. So what would you say?

[Chief Sergey]

Yeah, I, I would mainly be echoing everything that, that Spencer said. I think it starts with, you know, everybody makes mistakes, everybody's gonna have missteps and all that. But, you know, if you can, I'll kind of, I'll kind of throw a question out there.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

I'll.

[Chief Sergey]

People, people say, hey, like, how do I handle the transition from firefighter to lieutenant? Like, do you think it's going to be challenging for me now? There's going to be little challenges within there, but what I tell them, I'm like, look, if you were a firefighter, every day that came to work, that was into the job, that tried to be good at the job, that held the people in the firehouse accountable, you know, like you had that peer to peer accountability. If you're already on that track, it's going to make your transition much more easier because it's like all you really did is you just started wearing a different T shirt, you know, so you're still doing all those things that you did as a firefighter, you have credibility now as an officer. So it's just coming to work, doing the right thing, being into the job, trying to be good at the job, being a practitioner and just staying, just staying focused on what you need to do. So again, everything that Spencer just said, the only thing I'll add is the other thing I think is important when it comes to your credibility is sometimes people turn it around. Right now I'm a, I'm a realist and I'm not always a very warm and fuzzy guy. Sometimes I think firefighters that are, that are lazy, that are incompetent, that aren't there for the right reasons Those people promote and those people become lazy, incompetent company officers who become lazy, incompetent chiefs and so on and so on. Those people are out there, right? Some of them, Some of them reach a point in their career where they're like, man, I've realized now that maybe I should have been a little bit more engaged than I was. Like, it hits them like a warm blanket, especially when they get promoted and they're like, damn. And they call their credibility into question. Like, how am I going to get around this? Everybody knows who I was. The biggest piece of advice I give to people is don't run from it. Like, don't try to pretend. I think Spencer said, like, don't try to pretend to be someone you're not. Like, if that was me in that position, I hope that's never me. I'd be like, hey, look, I know all of you are very familiar with Jared Sergey. I haven't always been, you know, doing everything that I should be doing. I know that about myself. Like, I'm trying to work on that. Like, this is how I was. I know how I was or wasn't. And I'm trying to be better. Like, just, just don't hide from your. Your previous reputation. And you may never turn it around. I mean, if you could turn around in front of your crew, maybe that's all that matters. But just try not to run from your past. Does that make sense, what I'm trying to say?

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

I love it. No, I actually, I love that how you say that. Because it's self awareness, right? Because yes, you're totally right. People will promote that. Call it what it is, right? People that weren't the hardest workers, people that, you know, there was a large list of 20 and all 20 got promoted because there's just that many openings just go around, whatever. At the end of the day, people may change, right? May. Maybe it takes becoming a lieutenant where they now are, are suddenly, obviously this is not the, the hope is that it takes them to get bars to now, you know, finally be a proactive individual that's given back as a mentor and blah, blah, blah, but, but, but you're totally right. It takes some self awareness, but some humility and vulnerability as well to say, you know what? I've been a shithead for 15 years, whatever it may be, but you know, I'm gonna turn this thing around. I'm turn the ship around because I am the individual that has Bugles now. I am looked at as the leader, if you will, in front of these These, these individuals, you know, I could either continue down my path now or I can, you know, build some humility and just say, I'm gonna turn this thing around. So I love that it takes self awareness and it takes a special individual to, to say, you know, maybe they're on their 25th year and they got five years left. I mean, it takes a lot of courage to, to turn that ship around. But hey, I mean, it's, it's never too late to start leading people and.

[Chief Sergey]

There'S little things you could do. Like, like reporting is a popular one that's come up as of recently with us. And like, I had to tell somebody the other day about their fire reports, right? And it's like, oh, I get busy. So I'm not, I would be a hypocrite if I told them, like, well, you know, I made sure I got all mine done.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Right? Right.

[Chief Sergey]

My son's sneaking past. Like, I, when they switched from a certain type of reporting software to a cloud based system, that was the worst thing for me because I could log on at home.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Hold on here.

[Chief Sergey]

Yeah. Oh, I was public enemy number one with not doing my fire reports. And so again, it's like, how do you approach it? Like Spencer said, like, if I have to sit there and tell somebody to do something that I wasn't always very good at, I was like, hey, we gotta start getting better at these reports. I know they get busy. Look, I'll tell everybody right now I was the worst offender when it came to reports. I get it. Just try to do your best for me and knock these things out and I'll, you know, stay on top of them too. You know, that's just one little example. But you can use that in a lot of different things.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Absolutely, you could. All right, I wanna, I wanna jump here. So this is, this is rapid fire. This is where we kind of, we ask, you know what, what do you suggest these individuals do? So, Captain Davis, we, we like to give an action item to the listeners, right? Because the leadership message is a lot to resonate with now. It's kind of like, you heard this, let's go do something. So if you're going to talk to a newer firefighter cap, and there's a group of them, maybe you're in recruit school, they gave you an hour to chat with them and your topic was leadership. Here's the beginning of your career, a long career or rewarding career. Start doing this and it will help you propel your career. What would you say?

[Captain Spencer Davis]

You have to immerse yourself in this profession. Simply coming into work 10 days a month is not going to get you to where you need to be later in your career. I believe now there's a work life balance, don't get me wrong. Which is why I feel like you asked about telling new firefighters. Like, I feel like as you're that, that new firefighter, if you're a 20, 22 year old kid, that's a perfect time that you just need to immerse yourself in your profession. Try to learn as much as possible. Get out, get away from just maybe the jurisdiction in which you work. It's probably. There's a ton of great information in the city or, you know, the area that you work in. But especially with social media now, there's so much out there that you, that you can learn from. So that'd be one thing that I would say. Another one is you have to put your phone down when you're at work and, and engage yourself, engage your, engage your teammates, engage. You know, the firefighters you're stationed with. You can really kind of judge a successful firehouse in a very tight, bonded firehouse by if you can walk in and they're in the galley or the kitchen and they're hanging out and they're writing stuff on the board and having conversations or, or talking things through or they. In the TV room and every single one of them has a phone in their hand and they're, they're playing DraftKings and you know, scrolling through Instagram. So like, and I'm not saying that's a bad thing either, but like a tight group, you have to be able to have that relationship with one another. You have to be able, you know, to, to talk to each other and, and kind of, and bond if you want to be successful in, in this job.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Yeah.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

And truly this, this job is, like I told you before, I mean, it's a, it's just a game of relationships and building and expanding on those relationships and being able to, to meet new people and, and pull from their experience levels and just talk things through. Because maybe we aren't going to all the fires that, you know, the guys 30 years ago were going to, but we have the ability that we can, we can. I can watch a fire that occurred in Seattle last night, in Baltimore this morning, and watch those with the crews and troubleshooting. That's not experience that maybe I wasn't stretching lines or we weren't putting ladders to rooftops or conducting searches, but we're able to actually watch those in lifetime and with helmet cameras and, you know, the GoPros that put on the coats now and everything is. That's experience for us, even if we're not there. So you have to immerse yourself in the culture. You have to learn about it. You have to, you know, really, you know, study the craft and all that's out there. And most of it's free. Like, very rarely you have to pay for education when it comes to this work anymore.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Absolutely. Well, I'm gonna lead on something real quick because you had mentioned immerse yourself. You had mentioned you only come to work. You know, we're here eight, nine, ten days a month. But you did obviously mention life, work, life balance. So I love how you mentioned all the above, because we're not neglecting any of the above. Right. You can't just show up for work nine days a month, and then 21 days a month, you do nothing with the fire service. But then also, you can't work the fire service 31 days a month. You got to be like. You got to step away. So I love how you say that. Immerse. So would you say. Would you be fair to say that to become. And I use sports analogies because I was. I watched sports, I played sports, and I use the term greatness. Right. To be really, really great in the profession of the fire service. Right. You do have to be doing stuff outside of your shifts. Right. Whether reading books, reading articles, deep diving into. Into to research, reading books in the fire service or leadership or whatever. Right. So that's a must. Yes. I know it's rhetorical, but it is.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

Yeah, absolutely. And I was never the best reader. Like, I just. It bored me. I was not big into books, and then all of a sudden, I discovered audible, which was crazy because as a kid, I remember my father was always. I mean, I have a ton of fire service books in my library. Most. Some of them were his, some are mine. And. But I remember as a kid, he did books on tape on a lot of things. Like, he had CDs and cassette tapes of all these different audio readings. And I'm like, gosh, it's so annoying as a kid. Well, I live an hour and a half away from my firehouse. I commute in like 70 miles or so. And so it's perfect. Books podcast. I'm able to cover a ton of ground early in the morning and kind of get my learn on in my own peace and quiet. Is. It's kind of like a fine balance of. It's like, it's Dead time for me. I'm just commuting. I'm not taking time away from the family by doing it, and I'm not taking time away from, you know, the guys in the firehouse and the call volume to be able to do that. So finding that balance of. But you have to educate yourself. And a lot of that information out there is free. So you just have to go out and find it or find someone who can help you find it.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

How about officers? Like, right, so lieutenants, captains, someone that's stepping in from the firefighter role into a formal leadership role, leadership of a crew station or so forth. You were asked to speak for an hour and you were going to give some kind of a leadership advice tip, something for your experience. What would you tell that group?

[Captain Spencer Davis]

Just focusing on the team building would be, is a huge part of that. So I would kind of probably dive back towards expanding on, on the team building aspect of it.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

So how about as a whole. So I'm gonna ask Chief Sergi this question. As far as an action item, Chief, as we, you know, spent the last hour talking about credibility, reputation, we talked about being engaged, knowing your crew, talked about building a team. What's something the group of listeners could start doing today? Something you think that, that they haven't been doing, or just something you could challenge them? Hey, start doing this and this will kind of propel your career.

[Chief Sergey]

You know, it's a leadership podcast and I, I was wondering if you were going to ask me the same question that you did with Spencer. So I took some notes and one of the first things I wrote, so this is what I would offer. When you asked him the question about talking to a company officer, what I would remind everybody is leadership is a skill. Right? Like you, you can come into a leadership position and have some, some charisma and kind of some natural, positive and relatable attributes for people, like, they're just going to naturally be drawn to you, but that doesn't always mean you're going to make them a better firefighter. Does that make sense? Like, you know, just be a fun person to be around and that's a good thing. I'm not saying that isn't. But just to try to remind people that leadership is a skill. And just like forcing a door is a skill, doing a search is a skill, stretching a hose line is a skill, leadership is the same thing. And, and like, I remind, reminded Spencer and all, all the officers in my battalion, like, every single day that a company officer goes to work, they're expecting their Firefighters to do all of those things, to force doors. Well, to do good searches, to stretch lines, provide good ems, all of those things. They should be able to look to you and see you exercise that skill well too, you know, so now there's so many. There's so many things out there to. To harness that skill, you know, Would it be nice to have good mentors along the way? Yeah, that'd be awesome. But not everybody gets that right. So you have to make yourself the expert. Like, listen to podcasts, like, read, like all these things. He said, go take classes outside your own organization. You know, seek out mentors in your department. So it's just, I guess more of a reminder than an action item is just leadership is a skill. And if you want to be good at it, you have to develop that skill by taking classes and failing. Like sitting around in the office, maybe with your fellow officers and saying, hey, like, I'm gonna handle this situation this way. And then you do it and maybe it fails miserably. You know, it's like, well, less learned on that one. You know, like you're exercising leadership just like a. Just like a doctor practices medicine. Like, they make mistakes.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Absolutely.

[Chief Sergey]

So it's kind of the same. The same analogy there. So just reminding everybody that leadership is a skill, and if you want to be good at it, it doesn't happen. It doesn't happen. Just because we change the color of your shirt from. From white to gold. You have to. You have to work at it.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

You have to work at it. You have to do it consistently. All right. You mentioned reading. Spencer talked about audible. It's amazing what audible can do, especially on long drives. Didn't realize you could finish a book just from driving from point A, point B, but it's true. What's a reading? You know, we talked about, we got to be immersing ourselves, got to be learning, got to be reading, got to be looking this in a podcast cap. What's your favorite read? What's on your audible now? What is something that the listeners should be reading in terms of their development?

[Captain Spencer Davis]

So I have a few that I'd written down. Like I told you before, I was really not a big reader until, really until I got promoted. I've always been a fan of, like, podcasts and things like that, but I never really found any books. And I'll tell you that in my first couple of days being stationed as a, as a relatively new lieutenant with, at the time, Captain Sergi, who has, you know, outside of our normal day to day in the Fire service. He has an entire career on just teaching and leadership and he really studies that craft as well. He gave me an entire list of like of books. He's like, hey, look, not saying you got to read them this year, but just start, start you know, picking away at some of these and I think you'll find some interest. And his background of being in the Navy track so well with us being a Navy town that like military books to me have always been like military movies have always been interesting. Some of the podcasts I listen to was, were military based. And so he started just kind of rattling off some books which took me down rabbit holes of finding leadership books that were, a lot of those were military focused. So the very first one I remember him saying was it's your ship. Which that book was probably one of the first. I think I actually downloaded Audible so that I could listen to that book and it was, it was just great. I mean that, that book, I don't know if he's talked about it before on previous podcasts, but basically that, that admiral took over for a ship that maybe was a little subpar and just by doing a few minor things and chipping away at a few identified problems really kind of turned that, turn that ship around and fix things. And I was. That just resonated so well with me in the fire department that you don't have to do drastic changes to fix some things. Just identify the problems, let your people know what those problems are and start kind of trying to conquer them.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Yeah.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

So it's your ship was huge for me. The Wisdom of the Bullfrog, which is pretty classic, you know, leadership book. That was another one that I, I really, I really enjoyed. Let me scroll through here real quick on my Audible, see what else I have that.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

I love it. I love it. It's about. Yeah, well, as you look through there, I think, I think it was from it's your ship. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure it's a parable that's used likely in the military, likely in the Navy. But also I'm sure a lot of other authors reference it is, is, yeah, you turn that ship one degree, you know, you'll go a couple miles, you're not even going to know it was off track. But then you, you know, you go 4,000 miles and the, and the metaphor being, you know, six years from now, two years from now from that little minor change, you will have changed the trajectory of, of your career, of your path or whatever it may be. And that's what it's about. It's about that. That minuscule change that you won't even know made a difference tomorrow or next week.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

Absolutely.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

But it's. Yeah. The rewards down the road. So I love that parable in that book. I know you mentioned you needed. I know what's on your. Your audible is that book called no nonsense leadership 2.0. I think that's on there as well. Yeah, yeah.

[Chief Sergey]

Auto book.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

Oh, that's right.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

You don't have the audio.

[Chief Sergey]

No, not yet.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

I have. I have that on my table that.

[Chief Sergey]

I need to get. I need to get on it.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

I have a question on that, which I'll ask you just. In just a sec, Chief. We got wizard of the Bullfrog.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

We got.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

It's your ship. No nonsense Leadership. How about one more Me?

[Captain Spencer Davis]

It's another classic one.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Which one?

[Captain Spencer Davis]

The Mission.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

The Men and me don't know that one.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

Have you heard of that book by Pete Blaber?

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

I have not.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

That's great, though. Add that one down. It's not a very long one, which a lot of times I'll look at those.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Perfect. Sign me up.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

But that is. That's another. That's just. That's a great one. And it's true, like when you have to just prioritize how you're. How you're leading it at work, everything comes first, right. It's mission and then the men and women in which you work with and then you know yourself. So that's a great book.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Love that.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

I'll check it out. It's another. It's another military focused book, but I think you'd enjoy it.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Yeah. Chief, what's. What's one of your newest reads you got going on?

[Chief Sergey]

So I. The one I just finished was called Think Again by Adam Grant.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

I have that. Yes.

[Chief Sergey]

Yeah. Really good. Not military related. Not fire service related. It was. It was. I don't even. My buddy of mine that I've known forever gave it to me. And it's basically a book that it tries to encourage you to, like, challenge your own assumptions, look at different perspectives, all for the benefit of, like, your own personal growth, you know, and just. That's kind of the main thing is like, oh, I've been in this rigid way of thinking for so long. It gives you kind of a look into how to. How to challenge your own thinking, challenge your own knowledge and. And overcoming some, like, cognitive bias and all those kinds of things. So I think from a leadership perspective, like, I was a great book. I finished it quickly. And I think anybody near the top of an organization that makes decisions that affect large groups of people can benefit from. From that book, I thought it was great.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

I love that.

[Chief Sergey]

That was the one I just finished. Yeah, it was awesome.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Can I ask something on that real quick?

[Chief Sergey]

So, yeah.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Something key. You said, challenge your perspectives. First of all, that's not easy, right? All of us, we like to. We like to be right, right? As humans, we like to be right. We don't like to throw ourselves in conversation where we know there's a heated discussion. But I like how you said, you know, especially when you're up here, when you're a formal leader, the higher you go up, but even at the lower levels as well, challenging your own thinking and perspective is what leads to growth. But it's necessary, especially in the world and the society we live in now. So can you share just briefly, Chief, that how challenging that may be for leaders, but then the necessity of challenging.

[Chief Sergey]

Your perspective, I think it's important because things change, right? I'll give you an example. I remember working on a policy, and you would have thought that. That me and a couple of the guys that I was working with at the time were taking away these chiefs birthdays because we wanted to update a policy. And the reason that they were upset was not because. It wasn't because we were doing it necessarily, is because they had very close emotional ties to that policy, Right. They felt like when they put this thing together, it was the best. And maybe it was. I'm not saying it wasn't like at the time, great policy, right? But things change. And so we come in, we fix it. And so now here I could be in that same position, right? I helped develop a policy. Well, maybe in five or 10 years when somebody comes to me and they say, hey, I know you helped work on this original policy, project initiative, whatever, I have some ideas and I think we can make it better. I'd like to think my initial response would be, hell, yeah, let's do it. It's been five years, 10 years since I looked at it. It needs a fresh look because one, I'm not as close to it, like, like even me as a battalion chief, like, maybe it's a firefighter or a company officer that's doing something that's more applicable to them day to day, as opposed to me that just kind of manages it. So it's like, hey, yeah, let's do it. You know, this is going to be better for everybody. Like, try to lose that emotional tie to that particular thing. Project Initiative, whatever. Because I think if you don't. I think if you don't do that, you're going to drive yourself to being disconnected, and people aren't going to want to bring anything to your attention to try to fix something, because all that happens is you just lead with your emotions and your, you know, you're so emotionally tied to this thing that you're. You're so closed off to any type of change. Yeah.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

It clicks in my mind, like, how many times have we been so connected to. Because I was in the training division, right. And we established some best practices. And so when I'm way far removed from training now, and I see that doing it differently, I'm like, why are you doing it like that? That's not what we did it. Yeah, but. Yeah, you're right. It's hard, but you're. You said that so well, because.

[Chief Sergey]

Yeah, and it's. It's funny even in that. But like, you say best practices. I say best practices all the time. I read this book, and it's about a lot of things, but it gets into how different types of professions will look at change. And it talks about scientists and how as a body of scientists, they like being wrong because it's like, oh, we got this wrong. Let's make it better. And it's just a totally different mindset than certainly the fire service. Hey, it's okay to be wrong. It's okay to say there's a better way of doing things. And again, if we're not careful with that.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

It's exactly, exactly.

[Chief Sergey]

Yeah.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

A little vulnerability coming up here, Cap. Obviously, Captain in a newer house promoted from lieutenant. What is one of the biggest challenge that you face as an emerging leader or transitioning from, say, firefighter to company officer, or even from, we'll say, lieutenant to captain in. In this other area that you were uncomfortable in?

[Captain Spencer Davis]

I would say going from the rank of lieutenant to fire captain, in addition to just, you know, gaining that additional bugle, is now you're. You're responsible for everything in that firehouse, good and bad and different. You're. You're ultimately responsible. So it was. It was. I had a. You know, my previous captain set me up with different tempos of how we would train and how we would do this. And so it was pretty much like he would set those objectives and I would make sure that they were, you know, fell into line. But a lot of that planning and forethought and all that was kind of done, and I just carried it out. Now you kind of get that Feeling like everything's kind of on your shoulders as the station commander. And so I would say just like your time delegation and the planning and things, like, you really just. You have to rely on the. On the other firefighters and your other company officers in your firehouse. I have a lieutenant that works, you know, with me, and we, you know, we discuss the day frequently. We try to plan things out, but ultimately, like, it can't all be on me. And so I feel like. Like that's a. It's just tough to. Trying to think how to even word it, but basically, you have to. You have to quickly build relationships with the folks that you're stationed with, and you have to kind of push some of that off onto them and do it as a team effort and just understand that even though it feels like it's all on you, being the station commander and the success of the firehouse weighs on you. Everyone's there to. To kind of. To burden that. Yeah, another one. Just thinking about it. So my current lieutenant, oddly enough, a couple years before that, but I made lieutenant and got shipped out of 14 and went over to seven. He was my driver. He was my ladder operator. So we had that relationship there. And even before he was my operator, he was one of the senior firefighters at the firehouse, where I reported as a. As a probationary, as a rookie firefighter. So it's just an interesting dynamic of timing, and, you know, we have a good relationship. That's certainly been different throughout the years, but here I am still relatively young, still relatively new in the department, and just trying to. Trying to figure out my own way and try to figure out how to. How to manage my own firehouse and how to try to, you know, keep us.

[Chief Sergey]

Yeah.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

On top of the.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

You know, is that. Is that trial and error, if I can ask, or do you. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

I mean, certainly. I mean, there's. There's plenty of things that come back. I'm like, man, I really bought that.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

But. And that just goes back to. You have to. You have to be self aware, and you have to. You have to be okay with somebody going, hey, that sounded like crap. Or that. Yeah, I don't know if that went very well.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Yeah.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

And being able to go, you're right, it didn't. As opposed to, you know, oh, I'm the captain. That's how it has to be. Like, you have to be open to some criticism and.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Yep. All right, it's time for the leadership challenge. We got to open up the show today with the Challenger Previous kitchen table guest Battalion Chief Jared Sergey Onto the challenge E Captain Spencer Davis. I always say that the most humbling part of this is the opportunity to connect people to help foster and spread leadership conversation. So we get to further the leadership conversation. Cap, is there someone else out there that you would like to challenge to be a future guest on the show? Someone that you believe would add value to members in the fire service around leadership?

[Captain Spencer Davis]

Yeah, one of the first people that came to mind and I was trying to think like, obviously I'm super comfortable with the firefighters and the company officers that are in my city and I don't, I kind of wanted to, to get it out, out, out of Noric, but the first one that just pops in my head is a guy by the name of Randy Jernigan Jr. So Randy is a fire lieutenant over one of the neighboring cities from us over in Newport News. I first met him going through some technical rescue classes that he was assisting with teaching. And then when I was picked up on the FEMA team, he is just a very pivotal role, very instrumental in that program and he's currently a rescue team manager. So he's responsible for when we go out the door. He's responsible for all of the rescue specialists that deploy on that urban search and rescue team. And one of, I've had several deployments with Randy ranging from, you know, relatively smaller hurricane style deployments where a lot of those are riding through and just basically performing damage assessment after, after some of these, you know, storms have gone through, up to some larger ones. Four years ago, we deployed together back in June and July of 21 down to Surfside Miami, Florida when a building at Champlain Towers collapsed there. And I can just tell you that Randy, he's just, he's a leader. Like, he just, he carries that presence with him. He has 20 plus years in the fire department and has a very great reputation locally. And I can tell you on the, on the world circuit or at least the national circuit of the urban search and rescue programs through fema, he's just a very highly respected guy. He's, he's always pushing, pushing the envelope, pushing things forward, broadening out like what we do. As far as, you know, the program was designed typically around urban search and rescue and building collapses. And now they're spearheading a lot of the swift and large water movement type of training sessions. And he's just, he's a guy that when people, when he talks, people listen and I just feel like he really has a great, just a leadership presence and A command presence and just a great reputation that comes with that. He was one of those, like we talked about the credibility aspect, like from the start of it, from a firefighter, from an entry level rescue company member. Like he just has always immersed himself in the profession. Like me. He's a multiple generation firefighter and he just, he just has it like he's just a strong leader and just one that when, when he speaks or when he has a plan comes together, you just quickly find a huddle. There's not a whole lot of, hey guys, come listen here. Everybody's just all eyes on him.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

People are there, People are already, they're there to listen.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

Yeah. So he's just, he's a motivational guy, maybe a little stern. Right. Which in my line of work, I like that sometimes just that good, strong kind of stern leader, especially in our, in our workforce, like in our work field where we're working, you kind of need that. He's a highly motivated guy and just a great leader in my, in my eyes, outside of the normal day to day fire service.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Awesome. Well, thank you for that. What I'll do is I'll reach out, I'll gather contact info of Lt. Randy Jernigan Jr. To see if he'd be willing to be a guest as he was challenged on the kitchen table. So I first of all want to thank you, Captain Davis, out of, for taking time out of your busy, busy, busy day, busy, busy year, if you will, with a newborn. Congratulations again. Thank you again, Chief Sergey, for being a part of this. Thank you for being the originator of the, of the challenges. It made this conversation possible today for our listeners to tune in. So this is what I got, Chief, lasting leadership thoughts before we close.

[Chief Sergey]

There's a lot of challenges going on in the fire department right now. Right. Fire service in general, staffing, retention problems, you name it. There's all kinds of things that are, in my opinion, from my view, are moving the fire department a little bit further and further away from its mission. I believe that. I hope it starts to backtrack, but I feel if we don't fix it, it's going to be headed in a bad direction. And so just to try to remind people that, you know, when you go to work every single day, there's a lot of different things that you will do as a firefighter, but when the bay doors go up, you are the only person that's going out there to perform those skills. So come to work and be, be a good firefighter. Stay focused on your craft and Be a practitioner. I don't care what level you're in. If you're a firefighter, be a good one. If you're a lieutenant, be a good one. If you're a captain, try to be a good one. Chief all the way, all the way up. And then with those challenges in the fire department, it's very easy to be in a leadership position when things are going well. It's very easy to be in a leadership position when we're sending four people home because we have extra leave slots and we don't know what to do with these people. It's easy to. It's easy to lead when the new pay scale just came out and Everybody got a $10,000 raise like those. It's easy to do those things, but you have to have some resiliency about you and remember that in spite of all those things, when you come to work every day, you can. You can create conditions in that firehouse specifically that make the world a better place for those five, six, ten people. And all it takes is your effort, your engagement, and your enthusiasm.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Captain Davis, lasting leadership thoughts you would like to leave the listeners with before we close today, I would have to.

[Captain Spencer Davis]

Say that leadership is. It's just another discipline of our job, right? We have to remain proficient in emergency medical services and hose line deployments and cutting holes and roofs, conducting searches, anything on the specialty sides. But the one thing that I just feel like you have to remember is that leadership alone is just another discipline, and you have to sharpen that skill. You have to challenge yourself, and you have to do it almost on a daily basis. And like we've talked about throughout the podcast, where you can. Where you can gather some of that stuff, but, but find somebody or find something that's going to sharpen that stone for you. And just remember, like, I've now I'm rapidly approaching being a company officer, lieutenant, and captain almost as long as I was a firefighter. And just the one thing that I feel like I just want to stress is getting promoted is not the finish line. It is truly like, it just, it restarts your career at each. At each level. And it. You just. You have to immerse yourself in it even more at each level as you go up, because you're just, you know, your. Your sphere of influence, it just keeps getting bigger as, as you continue to climb up, just realizing that as you promote, like people will promote for all these different reasons, but leadership and being a company officer is just not the finish line in your career. And just stay motivated each position and keep striving for for the next step and being proficient in your current step before you move on, you know.

[Battalion Chief Jared Sergey]

Yeah. Thank you, Chief, for your message today. Thank you for the for the challenge. Thank you, Captain, for everything you've left our listeners with. If today's message resonated with you listeners, please follow the Kitchen table or any podcast on any podcast outlet. Help us continue and further the leadership conversation in the fire service. So thank you for tuning in today to the Kitchen table. We truly hope you found this time valuable. We hope we've inspired you to take action, to lead and to spread the leadership conversation. Until next time, be safe, be intentional, stay curious.