← Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table 
Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table
Ep. 63: Stephen Shaw, Deputy Fire Chief - The Weight of our Words
01:05:10
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In terms of building your bench and building your team, building your department, building the people around you, if you're doing something in a vacuum, why, in other words, if you're working on something by yourself, unless you have a really specific reason why, for me, I work in a plus one fashion. In other words, if I'm doing something, there's usually somebody sitting right next to me or in the same meeting or the same phone call. It's redundancy, it's positive redundancy. It's, it's. For example, I called, I called a buddy of mine in Miami Dade one day, he was the EMS chief and he answered the phone, I was calling, I was talking to him and he says, hey, what's going on? And then in the background here, hey, man, hey. I'm like, dude, am I a speakerphone? I got my whole team here. Like, really? But that's, that's how he has his normal conversations is him and his two captains. And every time he's on the phone, they're usually right there with him. And I thought, wow, wow, this is really brilliant. Like, everything you're hearing, they're hearing real time as well. So you're not just transferring information, which is, which is in some cases fine. It's how it happens sometimes. They're hearing everything real time.
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Being rescued from a three story apartment building.
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The First Responder Liaison Network is proud.
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To present to you the Kitchen Table podcast. Join us as we explore leaders leadership.
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From perspectives around the globe. From firefighters to fire Chiefs, civilians to.
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CEOs.
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Our conversations have one simple goal.
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Build more leaders. Good afternoon and today we're staying on the East Coast. As we tune in from Jupiter, Florida, we have Deputy Fire Chief Stephen Shaw on the Kitchen table and the theme today is the Weight of our Words. We're going to talk extensively about what we say matters, especially as leaders in the firehouse. We're talking conversations, empowerment, the plus one mentality, and a whole lot more. Chief Shah is a father, a husband and a 29 year veteran of the Fire Rescue Service. In 2024, he became a Deputy Fire Chief, the Town of Jupiter Fire Rescue Department after serving over 24 years with the Fort Lauderdale Fire Rescue Chief. Shah is an accredited Fire Chief Fire officer and will complete his Executive Fire Officer in April of this year. He is an IAFC hazmat committee member and a hazmat specialist for FEMA USAR Task Force 2. He received his Bachelor's degree in chemistry and a Master's in Business Administration from Florida Atlantic University. He is a registered Nurse through the state of Florida. Chief Shah is an author for Fire Engineering magazine, a speaker for numerous conferences, and the host of the Perspectives on Leadership podcast. He has a beautiful wife and two wonderful boys. Good afternoon, Chief. Thanks for being a guest today on the kitchen table. How are you, my man?
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Thank you so much for having me on today, man. I'm excited to chat about everything you just talked about in terms of the weight of our words and all the stuff you mentioned in prepping for this. I, I got to tell you, I was, I was excited. I, I, I'm really going to enjoy this conversation with you. I know. And I really appreciate what you're doing over there on the west coast to, to bring, you know, people like me, people with different ideas to the forefront. And just, and just talking to Shop, man, it's great what you're doing. Appreciate it.
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B
Oh, well, thank you so much. I appreciate that. And yes, the weight of our words. I'm very excited. Actually, you know what? Why don't we start here? Speaking of the weight of our words, I remember, I don't know if I, I think I sent you an email, maybe not, but I gave you a phone call, and I will say, I am of that millennial generation. I picked up the phone and I will say, of all the leadership challenges, it does start with an email. Maybe secondly will be a phone call. But I remember the phone call just like it was yesterday in December. And you actually said this. You go, I appreciate the phone call because obviously the theme that we're going to talk about is, you know, what we say matters, the weight of our words. And you were like, we've gotten away as a society of talking to each other. And so I never heard someone say, thank you for calling me and not just texting me or emailing me. So I appreciate that. And that's going to be just a great segue into what we're going to talk about. So lots to unpack today. Thanks for taking up Chief Shannon Stone's leadership challenge. That's how this is possible. But before we go to leadership, would you mind spending a minute or two just talking a little bit about Steve Shaw? I understand, spent 24 years Fort Lauderdale, and you're over there in Jupiter now starting something new and exciting there.
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Yep.
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Why don't you share a little bit before we just dive into leadership?
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Well, no, I, I, let's see, where do I start? Yeah, like you said, man, I, I always try to start with the family first. And I, I'm, I'm the reason that is important is because if we're talking about the weight of our words, if we're talking about the. The power we have in our words, our actions have to. To match our words. So, for example, if I'm going to sit here and tell you it's all about family first, but I go into a whole dissertation about me and what my pedigree is and my degrees, and I like to do this and I like to do that and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I go, oh, it's. I have a wife and kids, too. Well, do my actions actually match my words? You know, so I. I always try to start with my. My wife and kids and do that because of a couple reasons. One, I get to do this because my wife pretty much has allowed me to take this journey over to Jupiter to start this new fire department. And it is not easy. There's a lot going on, and it. It takes its toll. So without her blessing, I. I wouldn't be even considering doing this. And on the same time, you know, and the example I usually give is my wife is a. You know, I mentioned this before on, I think, another podcast, but I like to always cover it. My wife is a psychologist, and when she was going to school for her. Her doctorate, she did her dissertation work on firefighter stress and behavioral health. So she interviewed over, like, a hundred people in the fire service, which is a lot. It's a good survey sample. And she came to me during the middle of it, and she says, you know, I'm starting to see some trends here. I'm like, well, what are your trends? She goes, well, first of all, your sleep patterns really suck.
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They do? Yes, they do.
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Yeah. So that got us into the whole idea of, you know, and I'm glad that through our words, these days, that's become a big topic of discussion. And you talk about work schedules, behavioral health, mental health programs, so that it's not. It's not taboo to talk about anymore. The words are starting to result in actions, and that's exciting. The other thing she said was, you know, your coping mechanisms really need some work. And I'm like, what do you mean? And she's like, well, through the data, it shows that you guys are really having trouble navigating through the challenges and whether that's adaptive versus maladaptive coping mechanisms, where. Whether it's the adaptive being going to the gym, talking to people, seeing a psychologist, you know, the positive things versus the maladaptive mechanisms, which are drinking, smoking, drugs, all that kind of stuff, right? And she goes, There's a, There's a struggle there. You guys struggle with that. And for me, I like doing things like this as part of my coping mechanism, actually. Whether it's speaking, presenting, podcast, it helps me process things, you know, But I always tell people that in my personal. I will argue this till the day I die. I believe that through our words, we can provide those coping mechanism, an additional level of coping mechanisms for our brothers and sisters who need to have someone to talk to, have a voice to, to bounce things, be there for them when they need someone to say something, you know, so I always start there. But in terms of why this is important, I know we talked about this a little bit, you know, I think that with this transition I made from retiring from one department and going to build another one, it's. I reflect on those words the most. As I was retiring from Fort Lauderdale, I just, out of all the things I remember, between the good calls and the bad calls and the good days and the bad days and the great relationships, you know, I, I think of. Of the most the words like the conversations and those words that built who I am today, you know, And I'm just really so grateful for all the people throughout my career, whether it was on or off the job that chose to intentionally and deliberately have these tough talks or crucial conversations with me when I needed to hear them. That helped me grow everywhere, from being a firefighter all the way through a chief officer. And I, I can give, I can spend the whole day talking about example after example after example, but I remember them and I value them so, so much. And in transitioning to this job where we're literally creating a fire department in the town of Jupiter, like from the ground up, I've. I've never had my words have so much weight than they do right now. In other words, as we're building this fire department, we're basically translating and interpreting to a town what this is going to look like. And they, they don't know. They never had their own fire department. Like, they do their police department, for example. So my favorite example of this is like, you know, we're, we're building fire station. We're building two additional fire stations. And one day we were talking with the planning and zoning folk, and they're like, okay, so how many people are going to be at this fire station for like, 10. Okay, so you need 10 parking spots now? We need, like, at least 20.
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Yeah.
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Why do you need 20? Well, because of shift change. What shift change? Well, let me explain. And if you take that Idea and expand it by 10,000. That's our day. That's our day around here.
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Wow.
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But it's, it's, it's great because one, it's rewarding being able to explain to people the fire service, our traditions, our history, culture, what we do on a day to day, to people that just maybe never exposed to it right in the beginning so they understand it. But two, it's just a very healthy reminder that people need to know what we do. People, a lot of people just don't know. And it's also a hefty reminder that if I'm going to explain something to somebody, I better darn well know what I'm talking about. I better double check my notes because they're going to take what I say is gospel.
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That's true. Wow. I can lean on so much there. As far as we're having a conversation about, you know, starting a fire department and bringing in people and starting doing something that most of us, the vast majority of us aren't doing, right? We join a culture, we join a fire department, we join this. So one thing I want to lean on at first is with this new journey in terms of building a team, right, because you said you're starting from the ground up, you're building fire stations, you have individuals that aren't in this existing culture where they lean on. Well, this is what we did last time. We did this. It's all, there is no last time, it's all now. And let's build it. So in terms of building your team, chief, how did you go about, or how are you going about building your team? Being that this is a leadership podcast, we're talking about, we're talking emerging leaders, we're talking to, you know, the crews at the ground level, if you will. As far as team building, are you building a team of individuals that you have spent your entire career with that you know, are like minded, you know, their work ethic and they're, you know, kind of on the same page as you? Or are you building a team that's like, you know what? We need diverse perspectives. We need these individuals that think very differently than. I'm just curious on how that, that team dynamic, how are you recruiting that team?
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So, okay, where do I start with that one? If I'm going to make an analogy for those of us that, those of the listeners that have worked at a fire academy or have worked at a paramedic school, working with certain instructors, I think that all of us, when we're teaching together and we get Together for like, lunch or just when we're teaching, we always end up saying, and I've been there, I've been. Whether it's Coral Springs Fire Academy or wherever, we work together. We always. I remember saying, multiple times, man, what a great group. Imagine if we can work together in the same fire department. That's what we're doing right here. Like, the team I have right now is just that, like, we. We jive. We. We worked well together. We're focused on leadership, we're focused on team. All the things you read about, culture, leadership, those kind of things. We have those discussions every single day, usually multiple times a day, because we know as we build this, we have to be setting the standard, setting the expectation, creating the culture. Now, the interesting challenge is. And this actually goes back into the. My EFO program. So when I was in Fort Lauderdale, my EFO program was going to be centered around the homeless crisis and how fire rescue interacts. Well, there's not that much of a challenge in Jupiter. That's different. It's a little bit different. So I changed it to creating a culture and a new organization. Right. So all the research I did, I started to look at some trends that were developing. And one of the main trend, when I was talking to other individuals who were either starting a new fire department, which is a very small number, or that were intentionally addressing change within their organization. Recruitment, retention, the whole nine yards. One of the biggest themes was the need to hire the right people. And we know this in general, if you're in hiring, we do. We always want to try to hire the right people, but nowhere so is that important as what we're doing right here, because we're literally building from the. The ground, the base. Right. So it's. It's going to be an interesting challenge because the people that we're hiring, especially from, like drivers and up, they're all coming from different organizations. Yeah, they're all coming from different places with various. With various backgrounds, different shared experiences, different. Just differences. Right. So the dichotomy is this. We're hiring people with 15, 20, 25, 30 years of experience to come into this fire department. Right. So we're hiring them because of their individual experiences, their resumes or pedigrees. But the challenge is, now that we're all here, okay, we respect your. Your experiences, but here's the boat we're on now. This is a Jupiter fire rescue to our boat. Here is the culture we're establishing. This is the direction we're going. We need to be rowing in the same direction.
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Absolutely.
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That's going to be our challenge. Respecting the experience of those we're hiring on while being on the same boat, going in the same direction.
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Yeah.
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So in doing that, like you said, who we're looking for, it is about the right people. Like, in other words. And we could talk about the. What we're doing here all day. But I will tell you, I think the biggest thing I'm having to address when I talk to people about this because we have a lot of people reaching out a lot.
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Wow, awesome.
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We have to make sure they understand is this isn't a retirement gig. Like, some people are going, oh, that'll be my retirement job. It is the exact opposite.
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Yeah. You're starting something. Yeah.
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We're literally between the training we're doing, the need to grow the organization, the initial training ongoing. It's, it's not my. One of my friends described it to me the best recently. He's a guy who works for another fire department, one of my good friends. He's going to. I'm going to hire him here, right?
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Yeah.
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And he goes, he calls me one day and he goes, you know what? I think I know what to expect. I'm like, oh, you do? What? What can you expect? He goes, well, Steve, I know you and you're a trainer. So every single day we're going to train, aren't we? I'm like, yeah, 100 every single day. The expectation is you will train every day. And whether that's a few minutes, 10 minutes, 50 minutes on a piece of equipment or an SOP or a protocol or whatever, or eight hours out of service in your gear at a fire, you know, fire training, whatever it is, you will train every day. That is the expectation. Yes. He goes, okay, I got that. I could do that. He goes, the second thing is, you're gonna have us doing a lot when we're not training and running calls, Right? I'm like, oh, yeah. He goes, you're gonna have us at HOA meetings and interacting with the public and all these opportunities and meet and greet people. I'm like, yeah, you're gonna know everybody around here. The business owners, the residents, the, the, the travelers intimately. They're going to know you. You're going to know them, and you're going to be very close with them. Yeah, okay, Okay, I got that. And he goes, at night, you may leave us alone. I'm like, yeah, at night I'll probably leave you alone.
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I'll try, but that's.
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It's important to Set those expectations. So the people we're hiring, to answer your question in a very long way.
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No, I love it.
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One of the biggest thing is to making sure we set the expectations. So much so that they have a very clear picture of what they're getting into. This ain't going to be a retirement gig. This is going to be a very busy gig, but also a very rewarding one.
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Absolutely. Well, to go to lean on that a little bit further in terms of. Because like you said, it's a new culture. This, the standard is not even. There's, there's nothing existing. Right. It's, it's built in. The individuals get hired on. And here is Jupiter Florida's fire and rescue. Is that the name of it, by the way? Is it?
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What's that name of the Jupiter Fire Rescue Department.
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Jupiter Fire Rescue Department. So now, you know, talking to the, the listener base now who aren't working in brand new fire departments. Right. Our listener base now is those that are in their fire departments now. They're firefighters, company officers, chief officers. They have this existing culture. And as we talk about like, yes, we're going to set the standard. This is our expectation. But now we're talking to individuals on, well, why should it be different? Meaning like I work for an organization now. And it's like just because we have a certain culture where we may not train every day. Just an example, we should be training every day. But maybe our business owners in our first two area don't know us and that's our norm. But why does that have to be our norm? Right. We can, we don't have to be a brand new fire department to establish that mindset of what you're saying. I know mindset is something that we could talk about today too, but it's like we can, we don't have to be brand new to set that. We'll call it a new expectation that I wish it didn't. It never even had to have been new. But let's go ahead and start that now. So I guess it's not really a question. It's just something in terms of as the listener base tune in, it's like we can start doing this stuff that you're talking about now. We can start building that culture now.
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To your point, I mean, we, the team and I are in a very unique situation where we get to build this fire. We have to address the culture.
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Yes.
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If we don't, it's going to create itself and who knows what that's going to be. So we have to be addressing the culture. But to your point, everybody else out there in the 30,000 fire departments across the U.S. they're in an existing organization with their own unique and wonderful cultures. Right. But to your point, if you wanted to make change or if you found a gap in, in something that was missing and you're like, hm, why don't we do this? We need to be doing this. What do you do to get there? Right.
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Yes.
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So what I would encourage your readers to do is investigate a guy named Dr. John Cotter. Yeah, he's, he's a doctor. He, he basically is the authority on change management, I guess you would call him. Right. So he wrote an article some time ago or a book that had in it the eight steps to create change. Right. And step number one is you have to have this constant sense of urgency. You have to have this, present this and keep this constant sense of urgency in front of you. Okay. So I'm going to give you a practical application of that. So right now, as we're growing this fire department, every time we meet with the town manager, we get together, we sit down, we talk about jfrd. Right. And every time we get together, he leads the same way. He's like, guys, next year, October 1, 2026, we start running calls. So where are we at with the fire stations? Where are we at with trucks? Where are we at with the equipment? Where are we at with the station? Where are we at with this? Where we have that. And he holds us accountable, but he presents that sense of urgency right from the beginning and he holds us accountable. So when he does that, everybody's not, we're not on edge. It's not like an on edge feeling. We're just hyper aware.
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Yes.
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Keeps reminding he doesn't let the foot off the gas.
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Yeah.
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So now that that urgency is there, it's amazing what we get every watch.
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Yeah.
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And this. And the reason I'm telling you this is because this right here is applicable outside what we're doing. If you're trying to start a team or a project or working with whatever, it's so applicable across the board. But I'm getting to what we are getting to watch that in real time. We're living in a petri dish of leadership is what we're doing. But I will tell you this, the results of that, of him starting that and going down, almost like going down that eight step process without even knowing he's going down. It is. I've never seen a municipality working with such efficiency.
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Wow.
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I mean, things just get done. Our things are on time, they're under budget. It's moving like. Like a municipality should work.
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Absolutely.
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And for those people out that are listening, they probably work for organizations where there's red tape and bureaucracy. I'm there too, but I've never seen it work this way before.
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Wow.
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It's not magic, right? It's not like sorcery. It's just. It's just the right people in the right place, but deploying the right thing.
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So it sounds like sense of urgency, accountability, setting the expectations. And I know you talk this word lies funny. You. Corey, said this yesterday a lot, and I. I've heard it. And it's. We talk about this at the end. It's kind of one of the closing statements. Intentionality, right? There's intention about the things that you do. It's not accidental. You're not getting things done accidentally. It's like, oh, yes, I'm glad that got done today. It's like there's an intent behind what you're doing. And I love the sense of urgency. A lot of our listener base and myself, you know, athletes, we talk about, you know, having that sense of urgency the fourth quarter, trying to play from behind, whatever it is. But I. I think what you said is just key, is in terms of trying to see things being done. It's flowing, things are just moving along. You do have to have that sense of urgency, because if you don't, it's like when it gets done is when it gets done. It's like, okay, you wanted to get your thing done by next year, but three years later, you're still working on it. So I love that. I love that. So intentionality is something we talk about quite a bit, going along further about the weight of our words. Chief, Something that I really resonated with, it was on your podcast that you host on the Perspectives on Leadership, you were talking about, I think it was like mentorship or it was just about maybe projects. And you said you never know unless you ask. And that was it so resonated, because that's so true. How many times do a lot of us just get stuck somewhere, having never known what we could have been achieved or gotten accomplished unless we took that step forward or asked something. So as we continue to talk about the importance of what we say, what we say matters, the weight of our words, can you talk about what you. And what. What it means to you, Chief Shaw, on the concept of you never know unless you ask and what that can lead to?
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It's. It's Such a broad scope of a statement. I mean, whether it's an individual, you asking yourself, or whether you're doing it for yourself, whether you're doing for another person, whether it's on the job, whether it's in a relational, whether it's outside the job, whatever. The concept holds water everywhere. So, for example, you know, you have a podcast. I have a podcast, right. So I do it through fire engineering. The reason I have the podcast is because I asked to do it. I just. I'm like, you know what? Let me just ask. So I talked to Bobby Halton, and this is shortly before he passed, actually, a couple years ago. And I called him and I talked to him. I go, listen. You know, I've been writing for a little while. I jump on an occasional podcast. But I would. I have this idea for a podcast. I wanted to run it by you, and I think it would bring value. I. I want your. I would like your blessing to do it. And he's like, Steve, absolutely. Yeah. 100. Absolutely, I want you to do it. And his only caveat was, whatever you do, whatever you talk about, it has to be deployable. In other words, it has to be something that the. The listener can utilize. Whatever you're talking about, can they use it when they're done with your conversation? That's all I ask. And he gave me his blessing.
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That's awesome.
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And. But I asked for it. Yeah, same thing on the job. You know, it. If we. As a. And I was a chief officer, I was always the firefighter who asked to do more. Like, when I first got on the job, my first year in the job, I was a HAZMAT nut. I wanted nothing. The reason I joined Fort Lauderdale Fire Rescue was to join the HAZMAT team, to be quite honest. And my first day on the job, we were all doing introductions. There was 62 of us in a very large class. And I raised my hand. I'm like, hi, I'm Steve. I just came from Deerfield Beach Fire Rescue, and I'm here because I want to be in the HAZMAT team. Because I said that out loud and verbalized and vocalized. It. It got the. The ear of some people. In other words, I was already on that path. I wanted to do it. I was already focused on that. One of my chiefs comes up and goes, hey, you know, I know you're interested, so I'm going to put you out there a little bit more than the other people that are running the calls in the center of the city. I'm going to put you out there with the crew out there. I'm like, thank you. But it was because I voiced it, I verbalized and I asked. And through that course in Fort Lauderdale, I became hazmat technician. I became a hazmat coordinator. At one point, I got my bachelor's in chemistry. I'm on the USAR team as a hazmat specialist. I'm on the IAFC as a hazmat member. I'm involved because I purposely would ask to do more.
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Yeah.
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And they. And now as a chief officer, I look, look at the, the rank and file. I'm wanting people to ask questions. I want people to inquire. I. We need people to inquire and ask, hey, I'm interested in doing this. What do you think? Thank you for. Let's start there.
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Yeah.
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So I just think we don't know we get unless we ask. And then going to a personal level, whether you're asking a girl on a date, whether you're, you know, whatever that looks like, whether you're just taking the. It's a little bit of bravery too, you know.
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Absolutely.
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And not being afraid of what the response is, whether it's a yes or no or whatever, but just putting yourself that having a conversation, there's so much power in that.
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Yeah.
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So I do believe that you never know what you get asked. And I wish I would implore the people out there that are listening do that more like, yeah, as chief officer, even looking back at Fort Lauderdale, I only know what I know. I only know who's doing what as much as I know. Maybe there's someone with a specialty. Maybe there's someone with a desire to be on days or be on a special team. I don't know. Unless you ask.
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B
Yes. Can I land on something, Chief? Because you're right. We might get 10 things of no's. Right. Because, you know, our aspirations of firefighters are sometimes like, yeah, good luck. We're not going to get that right, but we might get 10 no's before we get a yes. But at the end of the day, if you never asked those 11 times, you wouldn't have got that one yes. So can you provide just, just for context for the listeners, like, give a time where you were told no. You actually like. Nope. God dang it. You ask again. Nope. God dang it. But then led to the eventual yes, where you're like, wow, this really shaped me now. So can you just talk a little bit about, you know, you might get no's, but it'll lead to a yes, eventually.
- [26:15]
A
And I can give you a couple right off the bat. That. Okay, so I'll use a hazmat example. I was hungry for Hazmat. I wanted to be in that team. I wanted to be in that truck. I wanted to be the best hazmat technician. After about. I got hired a year later, they hired on a guy who was a hazmat guru. He had owned his own company. He had products out there, this guy, and he was politically savvy. He knew the people in power, right? So I remember one day I was being put out of the hazmat station on a regular basis. This guy gets hired, and I was basically kicked out. That guy took my spot. Oh, now think about. Think about how that feels, right? Like, I'm already on a track and then suddenly, boom, I'm out. Like, what the. What the hell? Now, how you respond to something defines you. Okay, let's. Let's start there. Somebody. My. My good friend Garrett Pingle from Fort Lauderdale had said that to me years ago. I never forgot it. How you respond to something defines you. So here I am, basically almost kicked off a team by a brand new guy. All right? And even my chief buddy, my chief who had put me on the team when the guy got hired on, he walks up to me and says this. He goes, steve, you're going to be a great hazmat tech one day. My thanks, chief. He goes, but that guy right there is a great hazmat tech. So you get me. And I'm like, yes, sir. Gotcha. But I never gave up. I never stopped. I kept going to school, kept pushing, kept asking to be out there. And eventually I was able to keep going again, being put out there and so on. So I never let it affect me because if I would have said, you know what, screw you, whatever, take him. How would I. What does that say about me?
- [27:47]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
- [27:48]
A
And we can't do that. We have to understand that our actions define us. Right?
- [27:53]
B
Yeah.
- [27:53]
A
So that's just one example of that, but perfect. Basically, it was a no, but I kept working towards it. Later on, I applied for to be an EMS captain. I was on a. I was slated to go to a busy firehouse, but this opportunity for EMS captain came up. So I applied for it. And I was actually told by the chief who was doing the interviews, you got it, you're in. And interviewed. Did well right after we interviewed, his best friend interviewed for this, wanted to be the. On the spot, get the spot. So he told me he went for it, went from, hey, You've got the spot to. Hey, you know, we're gonna have to a process to. Hey, yeah, sorry. I just. And I had already rearranged my schedule. I canceled class. Teaching on the side was canceled. Told my wife we were rearranging things. I was about, about to be there. And then because my buddy's best friend wanted to do it, I was totally scratched. And again and again didn't define you. What do I do? Do I go, you know what? Screw you, Blah, blah, blah, blah. No. I'm like, hey, things happen for a reason, right?
- [28:55]
B
Yes.
- [28:55]
A
And because of that, I got to go to my firehouse, be there for three years, have a tremendous amount of experience, have the shared experience with this crew that I wouldn't have had otherwise. Tons of fires, tons of great medical calls, tons of just experiences.
- [29:10]
B
Yeah.
- [29:11]
A
And I'm so grateful for that. But it wouldn't have happened.
- [29:14]
B
Yes.
- [29:14]
A
If I hadn't not given me that opportunity.
- [29:17]
B
Absolutely.
- [29:18]
A
So things happen for a reason.
- [29:19]
B
They do happen for a reason. And I, I, I so believe that, like, things will always work out. It's something that I always live by and try to motivate or tell people, you know, when things, when they're down and stuff. But how much? Because for Chief Shaw, right, There's obviously, there was positivity, there was optimism. You had the mindset of, like, this is not going to hold me down. So can you talk about how important that is? Because we have seen right, wrong or indifferent. We've seen firefighters, officers, and people in the fire service that do let those, oh, the chief just hired his buddy and, you know, it was supposed to be mine. Or we see that all the time. And people go down the other path. They're like, all right, I'm never going to apply for another. I'm not going to step up for this next role now. So there's positivity and optimism that takes place. So as this being a leadership podcast, you know, we need to remain positive. We need to remain optimistic. Things are not going to go our way all the time. In fact, things are not going to go our way a lot of times. But you remain positive. Resilient didn't define you. And there was so much success that led you in that, you know, after the fact. So how important is just staying optimistic, regardless if you're told no five times?
- [30:24]
A
But it's so easy to say stay optimistic. Right. And I get it. It's a whole nother thing to actually do that. I will tell you just, okay, so on a personal level, I Wouldn't be able to do what I'm doing now and be part of this team. That through our experiences building a fire department from the ground up, had it not been for all the experiences, including. And especially the negative ones.
- [30:50]
B
Yes.
- [30:51]
A
The nos, the not yets, the picking of somebody else. You know what, that. That builds you. That. That causes you to grow. If everything's unicorns and rainbows, when do you grow?
- [31:02]
B
Right? Agreed.
- [31:03]
A
When do you know? So I think that people's. And you're right. We. We have to talk about this in terms of perspective now. Unfortunately, I think you might be talking to the wrong person. I don't know why, but I am the most positive person in the fire service. I don't know where it comes from. I don't know why I see everything with unicorn and rainbow glasses. My lens is always positive. Anything that happens, I think, okay, it's a puzzle to be solved. It's a challenge to be overcome. It's a new relationship to build. How do. What am I going to learn from this?
- [31:34]
B
Yes.
- [31:34]
A
And I know that's not the norm. And maybe I got a screw loose. Maybe I'm. Maybe I've got some.
- [31:39]
B
We all do.
- [31:40]
A
No idea, right?
- [31:41]
B
Yeah.
- [31:41]
A
But it's helped me navigate through this. I got 29 years in the fire department, and I'm more excited today than I've ever been before. How is that. I don't even.
- [31:51]
B
How's that possible? Right? That's amazing.
- [31:52]
A
I don't know. I don't know if it's the coffee. I don't know if there's something in my water. I have no idea, bro. But. But to your point, we need more of that. I. Yes, we talked about this. I was. As we're going through some of the notes here, I was thinking about this. One of the things I hate. I hate is when watching people, you just people in general, and especially those you deeply respect, when they're met with adversity and their initial default response is, oh, the world's over. Oh, this sucks, or it's not my fault. It's that guy doing this. Ooh, ooh. That pisses me off. Everything that happens, there's an opportunity there.
- [32:26]
B
Opportunity.
- [32:26]
A
I wish more people saw that. And where I'm at right now, you can't not have that perspective. Everything happens. It's like being on the USAR team. I've been on USAR for, I guess, 10 years now. I haven't done a lot of deployments. I've only done hurricane. I've done surfside But I remember being at Surfside listening to that. The. The. The conversations had by the teams and those people are just amazing that I get to work with. But the. The attitude is, we're going to handle it. We're going to figure this out. There's no, oh, I can't do that. Oh, this sucks. I don't know what's the problem. We got it. We'll figure it out. We got it. Got it. They. They want the adversity. They want the challenge.
- [33:04]
B
Yeah. Wow.
- [33:04]
A
And I wish more people took that mindset to where, oh, there's a challenge. Good. Give it to me. Let me figure it. That's just only going to help you grow. Going to help you grow.
- [33:16]
B
It's about the growth. Yeah. It's run toward the. It's run toward the. The challenge. Adversity. Don't turn around and hide from it. Because you're right. The growth is only going to occur when you're pushed outside the norm or the comfort area of what you're currently working with.
- [33:29]
A
But Berlin, it goes. It goes one step deeper than that, too. Even expanding outside the fire service. What we grow here in the fire service are leaders, and the world sees us as leaders. They saw that during COVID They see that during that pandemics. They see that during buildings collapse. They see it during emergencies. We are the calm center of the storm. We come there and solve problems. Right. We mitigate disaster. So we need people to learn it here, so when they go out from the fire departments, when they go out to their personal lives, their home lives, with their friends when they retire, that they're still able to help themselves and other people navigate through whatever life throws at them. Because some people need help. We can provide that. But start there first.
- [34:10]
B
Absolutely love that. Building it. Yeah. Let's go here, Chief. The plus one mentality this was. Can't remember. Doesn't matter. You wrote that down. I read it. I was like, I love this, and you will lean on something that I'm talking about here in a minute. But this mentality of a plus one, I'm just going to throw it out there and let you run with it instead of me elaborating on what I think you mean by it. But tell us about this plus one mentality.
- [34:37]
A
So you know as well as I do, and I don't even need to ask you, We. We all have a really big problem in the fire service with succession planning.
- [34:44]
B
Yes. We.
- [34:45]
A
We're not. We're not. We're not good at it. Now, there are some People that are very good at it. I've met some as when I said that and I started doing more research, I did realize that there are fire departments out there that actually do have decent plants, but it's the, it's the minimum. You know, it's not a lot for me, I dealt with that in my previous organization where I just was a victim of it. There was not the right succession plan. They don't set me up for their next position I'm in. The training isn't the Cadillac version you need, so you have to figure out how to get the training you need. And my organization through the years has gotten tremendous. Better. Fort Lauderdale has a tremendous program. Right. But back in the day, we struggled as well. So I think about this because in terms of building your bench and building your team, building your department, building the people around you, if you're doing something in a vacuum, why, in other words, if you're working on something by yourself, unless you have a really specific reason why. For me, I work in a plus one fashion. In other words, if I'm doing something, there's usually somebody sitting right next to me or in the same meeting or the same phone call. It's redundancy. It's positive redundancy. It's, it's. For example, I called. I called a buddy of mine in Miami Dade one day. He was the EMS chief, and he answered the phone. I was calling, I was talking to him, and he says, hey, what's going on? And then in the background I hear, hey, man, hey. I'm like, dude, am I on speakerphone? I got my whole team here. I'm like, really? But that's, that's how he has his normal conversations, is him and his two captains. And every time he's on the phone, they're usually right there with him. And I thought, wow, this is really brilliant. Like, everything you're hearing, they're hearing real time as well. So you're not just transferring information, which is, which is in some cases fine. Something. It's how it happens sometimes they're hearing everything real time. So if you're not there, they've heard it, they've been part of the conversation. There's your redundancy right there. I thought about that and that was the way that guy always does things. So I took that and started doing the same thing. So I remember back in Lauderdale, and even now, if I get on the phone with, it could be anybody, Department of Health, another training captain, whoever. I go, hey, so and so, come in here for a Second, Wow.
- [36:56]
B
Really?
- [36:56]
A
They come in, we get the phone, they meet each other, they listen to the conversation, and somebody else has been privy to something that I'm doing.
- [37:03]
B
Wow.
- [37:04]
A
So I think about that plus one all the time. And that goes into everything I'm trying to do. Like, if we're going to a conference, who am I bringing with me? If I'm teaching, who am I co teaching with? That's my next big endeavor right now is co teaching. So, for example, I co taught with my former boss in Fort Lauderdale at Fire Rescue International a couple years ago. It was her first time teaching at a very large venue. So when I saw the venue, I'm like, oh, this is awesome. When she saw the venue, she's like, holy. Oh my God. But she did fine. But I helped her navigate through that initial large speaking event and she was grateful for that and she did wonderful. Same thing. Now, me and my partner Mike, the other deputy chief here, we're going to be putting in a presentation proposal for Fri this year.
- [37:48]
B
Yeah.
- [37:48]
A
Because we're doing it together. So who am I working with?
- [37:51]
B
Love that.
- [37:52]
A
So I try to do that in as many things as I possibly can to develop that redundancy, to develop that plus one, to develop a team.
- [38:00]
B
Yeah.
- [38:01]
A
You know, my boss says it. Well, my boss, Chief Donato, when we're hiring people, we're hiring people that one are going to be good at their job, but they can do their next job above them because we're already thinking about putting them in a position to upgrade, if not be promoted. Wow. Thinking.
- [38:18]
B
I love that. So succession planning, you mentioned that at the beginning of this answer. So we've talked about succession planning in a, in a. In a previous episode. I don't know if you know Eric Sailors out of. Out of the Alameda county on the Bay Area, but his. The theme of his discussion we just met last but just over a month ago, we talked extensively about succession planning. And you said it just two minutes ago, we don't do very good jobs of session plan at all levels. Right. Some levels better than others. So you talked about you're already planning for those people to their step above. Not every department does that. Not every rank is treated that way. But how important is that? Like, I know it goes without saying, it's rhetorical, but we just. We aren't doing that all the time. So I guess two questions, Chief, if you don't mind, like why aren't we doing that since we know that is so important? Or maybe we don't know it's that important, right? Why aren't we doing that? But also, how can we start doing that today, even if it's a brand new lieutenant listening in? And he's like, well, should I really be preparing my firefighter to be lieutenant? Like, I'm a brand new lieutenant myself. Like, so I know it's kind of rhetorical because I guess I know the answer to that question more or less. But why aren't we doing it? How do we get listeners to start doing that regardless of where they are currently at?
- [39:26]
A
So I will say that one reason we don't do it is some. There are people out there who are the silos. The people that they, they, they're, they, they're protective of what they've either created or what they own or the area they, they occupy. They're very creative of this. It, those people. Listen, I hate to say this is way we have no need for them in that fire service right now. They cause so much damage that's beyond what they could see at the time in terms of wasted time trying to retrain somebody or I can go on all day about it. But a lot of people like the silo. That's a bad thing when you have one person that's so protective of what they own that they don't share it at all. There's a problem there that, that has to be identified and addressed. I, I, it's hard for me to use perfect good examples because I don't want to identify anybody. But I would say that if you do identify that, that needs to be a conversation with either that person or the person above them. Say, listen, when that person leaves, we have a lot of, we don't know what to do when that person's gone. That's a problem. If, if, and you know, you, how you can identify that person in one way is if they go away, do things stop in that area or that bureau or that job and they wait till they get back, or you have to call them on their vacation, they have to keep working from a ship or another country. That's, that's a red flag. Okay, yeah, it should be. And again, should be is, you know, theory, I guess. But it should be that once, if you've done it right, you should be able to walk away and there not be a skip in the step. You know, in a perfect world, if we do this right, if I do this right with the people that I'm working with, if I go away for two weeks, I should be able to come back and there's not A, there's no need to call me. And that's the other thing. Some people like to be called. Some people like to be the person that's called. I've actually talked to people that, that want to be that person. They, they about it yet. Person. That's the central point of contact for whatever's in their world. They like it, they feel like it's, it's. They're. Who defines them. Yeah. And I, I struggle with that for those people because when this is over, because eventually this is going to be over for everybody. We're going to retire, we're going to move on, we're going to pass the rain to somebody else. If you don't have, if this defines you and you leave, there's a significant hole in yourself that if you don't have something to fill it that's concerning.
- [41:43]
B
To say the least.
- [41:44]
A
So again, so what can we do? Okay, so the tactical things, again, using that plus one mentality of things. Everything that you're doing, every call you're running, even afterwards, like, what did you learn from that? Grabbing the firefighter, grabbing the driver, having the conversation. What did we learn? What did you think about that? Hey, you know, I noticed this on that call. What do you think? Just start the conversation, start the discussion. So people are not letting an opportunity go to waste. Yeah, it has to be also the norm. It has to be the default setting for. You mentioned a newer officer, right?
- [42:14]
B
Yeah.
- [42:15]
A
I think the newer officers have that opportunity to grasp more information because of their newness then asking questions of the crew because of how new they are as an officer is, is expected. Hey, listen, guys, you know, I'm happy to be here, happy to be this crew. We just had that car fire. What did you think about this? Did you think this worked? Well, you know, having that conversation is not only a way to get information out of them, it spreads the learning amongst that team. Going back to your, your word, intentional, I think, is the key thing right there. In other words, just, just putting it out there in the open, saying, guys, I'm really doing my best to make sure I do my part to set you up for success, to be a lieutenant at one point, even though you're a firefighter, I want to continue that conversation with you. Just voicing that. I think that people don't realize the power of voicing something and. Yeah, vocalizing something.
- [43:06]
B
Vocalizing it. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, to go, I mean, with everything you. As you talked about, we talked about succession planning, we talked about, you know, conversations, intentionality. Sense of urgency. It doesn't matter where you're at, right? Like a two year firefighter, three year firefighter can be educating, mentoring those that are brand new on the job and giving that perspective, bringing the plus one mentality, hey, come to me, come with me to this class, come with me to this. And it's just, they're succession planning, right? A six month person is going to be in the boots of a two year person in less than two years. And so it doesn't have to be at formal rank of succession planning. It could just be the knowledge that I have at two years. You know, you've been here six months, let's get you to know my knowledge at the minimum, two years. Maybe learn it faster and we could do this so by early mentorship, by, you know, by the plus one mentality. Come along with me. And so I just, I just love the plus one everything. And one thing that you mentioned when we emailed is bring a chief. He said one of the other groups had talked about that. When you said that, I'm like, that's a good point. Like, we're bringing our buddies. Like, let's be honest, a lot of times when we go to a class, it's still better than nothing, right? Don't go alone, no silos. The, the next step would be just bring your buddy. Awesome. You're bringing someone with you, you're both learning together, you're having fun. And then let's just say on the furthest end of the spectrum, I'm just throwing it out there. Chief. Now it's, it's not meant to be in any, you know, negative aspect, but bring a chief. But to talk about like how many of us are even thinking about that, like, as you go to the next class, let's bring a chief. Huh? What do you mean bring a chief? Like that? That, that's, I've never done that before, but talk about that. Bring a cheek.
- [44:40]
A
Well, first of all, first things first. That was not mine. I saw that recently in a post on Facebook from the search culture guys. That was Justin McWilliams. Okay. And actually when I heard that, I just, I, I called him like right after I saw that. And he's actually going to be my, my next guest on my podcast.
- [44:56]
B
Got it.
- [44:57]
A
We're listening about that concept.
- [44:59]
B
Okay.
- [45:00]
A
It's byoc. Bring your own chief. I'm like, what?
- [45:03]
B
Love it. No one's ever heard of it, right?
- [45:06]
A
There's so much to break down there. So I really gave him a lot of credit. But now his is very specific. In other words, search culture, right? He's talking about search. And there's a lot of data out there right now being developed. And whether it's Brian Brush or his whole, that whole team that's gathering all that data from the, the firefighter rescue survey, and then there's going to be more coming up with Basil Abraham doing the mayday survey. There's all this fresh, fresh ground truth out there. This data that's out there helping us validate some of the things that we've been doing through the years. Whether it's validating ves, because some people still are skittish, are doing it, location of victims, those kind of thing. This is valuable stuff, man. But to your point, who's going to the classes? The firefighters, the drivers, the officers, the in the field folk. They're hearing it, they're going, they're learning what the new gospel is. Guys like me in the chief's realm. Oh, I can't. We got this to do that I have no time.
- [46:06]
B
So.
- [46:06]
A
It's easy to. It's not everybody, but it's, it's easy. I, I've been there. I know it was a chief. It's hard to, to do the classes they're doing and get out from all the ridiculously multitude of projects we got going on right here. Nobody, nobody sees what we're doing behind the scenes. A lot of times that is true anyway. But to your point, if there's that opportunity for those chief officers who are in that role of decision maker or policymaker and or just advocate for what's out there, having them come back and validate what they've seen from the ground level is important. You know, we, we have this problem a lot. You know, people go to FDIC or conferences, bring back great ideas, but if it's not supported above them because of their inability to explain things or presented the right way, or not having the right data, if it doesn't get up here, it's not going to trickle back down, right? Not always, but a lot of times. But just think about what you just said, the invite. Like, just think about what that does to a guy that's been on days for a while. Okay, let's say for like a bunch of years. And I got a, a dialed in firefighter that walks into my office and goes, hey, Chief, I'm going to this class next week. Do you want to come with me?
- [47:15]
B
Wow.
- [47:16]
A
That it. What?
- [47:17]
B
Wow.
- [47:18]
A
What did you, what did I do to enlist? That honor of going, let's go, let's go.
- [47:24]
B
That's awesome. So we're gonna get into the action items here. I know it's all actionable, all the stuff we've been talking about, which is great. So, so let's ask that real quick. Chief. So firefighter company officer, you, one of your battalion chiefs comes up to you and says, I got this. Even if it's, I don't even want to say down here. Right. Because obviously chief officers, deputies, assistants, fire chiefs, they're talking, you know, adaptive challenges, they're talking about systemic things going on in the organization. They're not talking about hosing ladders. Right, rightfully so. But there's value in those data. It could be purchasing, it could be, you know, operational decision making, whatever it may be. Would you be all about, like when I say you. Because this is more for the group of the chief officers battalions and higher firefighters, couple of officers walk up into your office and say exactly what you say, gee, I go to this class, a two day class next week, or it's a one day, eight hour. Would you consider coming? Would that in your staff and yourself personally, something that would be like, let's go.
- [48:15]
A
So what is the question? Ask the question.
- [48:17]
B
So the question is that happens tomorrow. Like, is it, let's go. Thank you for asking me. I've never been asked. Let's go, I'll clear my calendar. Or is it, is there hesitation behind that? More for two reasons. Number one, because as you know, in the fire service, some, you know, not because something we've never done before, the reason why it's not being done is because we've never done it before. Right. It's like cha. It's like, it's like the whole change element, it's like, it's so change is difficult for firefighters. And because we've never done it that way before, we can't do that because we've never done it that way before. So yeah, we can. We've never invited a firefighter, has never invited a chief to a class before. Well, no, I can't, I'm busy. Plus, we've never done it before. Well, okay, let's change that. So if a firefighter officer walks up into your office, chief, and says, hey, there's this great class coming up next month. It's a four day class, but this one day would be awesome. Would you, would you consider coming with me?
- [49:04]
A
That's, that's a no brainer for me. If I'm finding the time, I'm going. And even if I can't, it's the response that matters, I think, even more.
- [49:11]
B
Yeah.
- [49:11]
A
Like, let's say I couldn't go following up with that firefighter, maybe even a day later or two days later, where I say, dude, listen, just want to make sure you understand. I really appreciate you doing that. Like, I. I don't get asked that a lot, so the fact that you're asking me means a lot. So there's a class coming up. Please keep me in mind. In fact, yeah, I would use it as an opportunity, let's put it that way, because that cat that's out there, just use his words to try to communicate with me. So I'm going to reciprocate. I'm going to continue that discussion with that cat because. All right, so now you open up a can of worms. Okay? So if I got a firefighter that has the. The codes, the backbone, the wherewithal to go, hey, I'm going to invite the chief to come to this class with me. What just happened there? In other words, you have a firefighter who is, without asking, just told you he's into the job. They're going to a class. They're. They're enhancing their knowledge. If I don't address that, if I ignore that and go, yeah, I'm too busy, Shame on me. Shame on me for not addressing that without somebody out there that's showing interest and motivation. I'm feeding that. I'm sending that guy additional classes. I'm seeing if I can sponsor that person. I'm going to try to go with that person. Maybe I have a class I'm going to that he or she would benefit from. You see what I'm saying? So what you just asked me is the opening of a possible communication channel. And if the, if you close that door on that person, what negatively have you done exactly? Now push this guy now. Well, my, My bosses aren't interested. What do they do?
- [50:39]
B
Yeah.
- [50:40]
A
So to answer your question, there's opportunity in the response.
- [50:43]
B
I love that.
- [50:44]
A
Open up and continue that dialogue.
- [50:45]
B
Absolutely. It's. It may not be necessarily the result that that happened right there that you have wanted, but who knows what other opportunity of the future because of the ask, because of the, the weight of the words, if you will, the invite. So I love that. So let's just go to rapid fire chief. And this is actionable all the way across the board. We're talking to firefighters, you know, company officers and chief officers. So we talked succession, planning. We talked about the weight of our words. We talked about perspective, the plus one mentality, sense of urgency, plus 26 other things that we. That I've yet to mention. But if you're talking to a group of firefighters and you're talking about growth, you're talking about become leaders, yes, you're early in your career, but that you're no less of a leader, you are leaders in your role, in your tenure. Now, to firefighters, what would you say to them in terms of start doing this and you will see some success for many, many years to come.
- [51:37]
A
Be hungry with your training. Be hungry with learning. Never stop. Every day, learn something new. Consider every day a training day. Get that into your mindset where that's your default setting. Make sure that every day you're learning something new. It never ends. And it. It's cliche to say the learning never ends, but it don't. Not in today's age. It don't end every day. Ask questions, be having inquiries, be curious. Learn something every day. Be hungry for that. Demand. You want to. Demand you. You want to learn something.
- [52:14]
B
Yeah.
- [52:14]
A
Hungry.
- [52:15]
B
And I'll. I'll ask a question to go further on that. That's not just fire service stuff. That's right. That's.
- [52:21]
A
That's. Oh, yeah. Well, well beyond fire service stuff. Something, whether it's leadership book, whether it's learning a trade, whatever it is. But it's a. Your mind's a muscle. Use that thing. You know, I think it was. Was it Colonel Sanders who said, this is weird? I know. I think.
- [52:39]
B
No, no, I love this.
- [52:40]
A
I think he said, you rust out before you burn out.
- [52:44]
B
Oh, I heard that one, dude.
- [52:47]
A
That. That's where I live right now. Wow. Somebody asked me recently, when are you going to retire? I'm like, dude, I don't even know if I want to retire. But I'm going to eventually. But, yeah. Yeah. What am I doing to keep learning? I want to keep working even though I'm not getting paid. I want to do. I want to be valuable, you know, anyway.
- [53:02]
B
Yeah, I love that. Okay. A couple of the officers, Chief, like, emerging leaders. Right. Maybe someone stepping into that formal leadership role as a lieutenant or captain or maybe someone that's newer, maybe existing longtime company officers, they're still growing, Right. Maybe they haven't, you know, adopted that plus one mentality, but doesn't mean it's too late. Right. They've been there 30 years. Doesn't mean the next class they go to, they can't succession plan the next person behind them. But in terms of everything we talked about today, what's your advice to company officers?
- [53:28]
A
It's simple man. Model behavior. Model the behavior you want to see your people having. So if you want them to train, train. If, if you want them to read articles, let them see you reading articles. If you want them to speak better, speak better in front of people. Model everything you want them to do. It's, it's, it's so easy to say, hey, I need you to do this. But if they see you doing it, if they see you modeling the behavior, well, there's the example that, that's it right there. In fact, you don't even need to say it. The way you model yourself is what they see every day. And if they respect you as a leader, they're going to do what you're doing. You're modeling every day. You might as well keep that in the, in the back of your mind that what you're doing, your actions, they have to reflect your word. Do not, never let your words not reflect your actions. That's, that's the killer, right? If you're going to say something, you have to. The actions have to reflect what you're saying.
- [54:19]
B
They got to match. Yep. Okay. Chief officers, this could be battalions. Assistant chiefs, deputies, ops, Chiefs, Fire Chief. They're still growing, right? Doesn't matter. Like you said. Right. You might be X amount of years in your career. Still growing today, just like the firefighter level. What's up? The chief officers need to continue to do to ensure they're still growing.
- [54:39]
A
So since we're on the subject of words, take every opportunity to default, to dialogue, to start discussions. Make conversations and dialogues and discussions the norm, not the exception. Every time you're, if you get called, if you're, if you're a chief officer and somebody, if you call somebody to the office and the first thing is they're thinking, oh my gosh, I'm in trouble. Why? Why? If they're, if you're calling them to the office and they think they're in trouble, what's happening there? What's the root cause of that?
- [55:10]
B
Yeah.
- [55:11]
A
So I minus default to communication. Like, take every opportunity to have a discussion, whether it's an elevator speech or a longer discussion over a cup of coffee. You mentioned the chief officers and especially battalion chiefs. They are the filter for the upper administration and the ground. They are that filter. They're, that they, they're the translator of what's being set up here down to here. Conversely, they soak up all that knowledge from the field, that ground truth, and then pass it back up to our level so we can hear what's going on and get the pulse of what's happening out there. Their role, their. Their position is so critical, but it doesn't happen if they're not communicating with their people.
- [55:55]
B
Yeah.
- [55:55]
A
So every day is an opportunity to default to dialogue.
- [55:59]
B
And I, I'm glad you said that, because I wrote that down and I forgot to mention it. Make conversations the norm, not the exception. I. That hit home. I think I heard it on one year. It was on the Firefighter Success podcast, actually, that you, that you. That you did a few months back. And if you're only ever getting called down, like the firefighters only ever getting called down because they're in trouble, then it's like, even if you want to give them praise one day, they're already walking into a conversation like, oh, God, what I do now. But if it's. Oh, if you're, if you're making it the norm, conversations are a norm. Your people are going to be wanting to talk to you. They're going to be wanting to meet with you.
- [56:29]
A
Yes.
- [56:29]
B
They're going to be excited. They're not going to have the guard up every time you walk into the room. Chief walks up. So thank you for. I forgot to mention that. And everything we talked about today was about words. It was about conversations. It was about, you know, accountability, but it was about, you know, talking to your people, lifting them up and biting them with you, and going back to the other thing. You know, phone call sometimes goes. Goes a longer way than an email. Thank you. So before we close this off, Chief, and go to a leadership challenge, one thing I wanted to ask you about development of leaders in your organization, because you're building from the ground up. What are you going to implement? Because I asked this question of all of our speakers. I'm wondering what they're doing in their fire department today for leader development. Right. And so we did a project in our leadership cohort last year, and our project was we were tasked with fire officer development, and our group of six changed that into leader development. Little spin off, because we know fire officers are already getting the tactical knowledge. They're, you know, they're getting those operational skills that we know every fire department already does well in, we'll say. But there was not as much on leadership development, whether it be communications, emotional intelligence, conflict resolution, human resource, whatever it may be. Do you have plans or intentions to have a leader personnel development in your. In your new fire department?
- [57:48]
A
Yeah. And that's something we're taking serious in the beginning. It's. It's still in construction, but A lot of the things that each of us have brought from our organizations that have worked, we're deploying them. So whether that's regular meetings with officers, whether that's an officer development program, whether it's a mentorship program, whether it's a book club, you know, we're, we're deploying a lot of things. And that book club idea is the idea of the guy I'm going to connect you with for this leadership challenge in a second. But yeah, we're going to be deploying things that have worked in our organizations, things that are tried and true. And we're still going to experiment, we're going to see what works. And. But it's exciting to put that together because. But the first part of it, and I'm going to sound goofy saying it over and over again, is we're being intentional about it. We're not assuming that they're going to grow as leaders. We're taking that seriously and making sure we guide them in that horizontal growth and that vertical growth as leaders.
- [58:39]
B
Yeah, got it. Okay. You mentioned book club. Your favorite, your favorite book you're reading Leadership Based.
- [58:46]
A
Yeah. So I got some books over here. One I always go to Extreme Ownership. Just one of my go to's. A lot of knowledge there. I'm big on Carol Dweck and her book on, On Mindset.
- [58:59]
B
Yep.
- [59:00]
A
Big person On Perspectives and Mindset is one of those books where I really gleaned a lot of that. It's definitely not a firefighter book, but the, the concepts are still very true in terms of our mindsets and the ability that we can change over time. I can change our mindsets and then I have a whole slew of things in my book. This is just a portion of what I got, but I'm a big fan of John Maxwell.
- [59:23]
B
Oh, yeah, Maxwell Leadership. Yeah.
- [59:25]
A
I just got the book of Search from the Corley Moore.
- [59:28]
B
Oh, yeah, that just came out. Yeah, Yeah.
- [59:30]
A
I haven't started on that, but it's on my, my to do list.
- [59:32]
B
That's awesome. Well, for the listeners here, you could simply only see here. You can't. You can't see. But what you stepped aside. He's got a bookshelf in the back quarterly. Moore did the same thing. He was like, hey, how many, how many you want to see? But I guess the key there is, is, and I think most of our leaders guests on the show have been. They've all been about leading. Like that's what they're saying is leaders are readers. Not every reader out There is a great leader. But what we know about great leaders, if they have a reading club, they have book clubs, they have a list of readings that they constantly go on. So just want to let the listeners know that the chief here stepped aside. He has a bookshelf in the back, and he just shared three books. Okay. We're here today, Chief, because the leadership challenge. We could only have this conversation because leaders are like, you know what? You got to reach out to this person. Is there someone out there that you would recommend to come talk leadership on the kitchen table?
- [60:23]
A
I have a list of people that I would love to direct you to. And it's so. It's so hard because, you know, like, like, you. We surround ourselves with those we want to be like or emulate, and we surrender. So after we look around, after a time when we look around, we're like, wow, there's some amazing people we surround ourselves with, with. And I could, Man, I struggle with this, and I, I, I, I really struggle. But I, I, I did come down to my team here at work, right? So we have this team that we developed, and I'm learning from them. They're learning for. We're learning from each other, right? So the, My counterpart, my. The other deputy chief, his name is Mike DiStefano, and he comes from Brevard County. He was over there for about 20 years, and now he's my counterpart here in the town of Jupiter. And he's, He's. He's just this solid cat, man. He's got his own kind of take on leadership. He has his own platform. He like, like I do. We write articles of fire engineering, and every day we, we talk leadership. Every single day. It's either on the ride in the ride home, when we get here, I'll routinely get here and make a beeline for his office and go right to the whiteboard, and we'll start just whiteboarding things like, hey, man, this is on my mind, and I'll just put it up there, and we just start going to town. So the, the challenge for us is, you know, we, we talk about it all day, but the challenge is going to be how we. How do we deploy this, right? So Mike's got. Mike is that person that I, I'm. I'm loving working with. I love the balance. I love being able to have somebody to bounce things off of and dream of what we're going to be doing as we build the department. So he's definitely something I, I mean, again, it was hard. Anybody in my team, I Could have directed to the people we work with. They're amazing. The town people are amazing. Oh, my gosh. People. I work with the fire engineering in my previous job, but I'm going to go with him because he'll be able to give you a different perspective on what we're doing here from his own take on things, so.
- [62:15]
B
Well, thank you, Chief. And what I'll do is talking with the theme. Going with the theme is the weight of our words. What I'll do is I typically email, but I will gather contact and I'll give him a phone call and I'll. I'll put Chief Shaw's, you know, his recommendation at the top. You know, phone calls sometimes go a lot further than an email. So, yeah, I'll at least hold that part. I'll give him a call and see if he'd be willing to take up the Chief Shaw's leadership challenge. So before we close, you host the Perspectives on Leadership podcast by Fire Engineering. You consult around the country, is that right? You say you go to Fri, you're going to. You're teaching in Indianapolis. Coming up. Fda. So.
- [62:49]
A
So the last week, my EFO program happens to be the same week as fdic, so I'm not going to be there this year. Yeah, I do. I. I love going to the conferences. I love teaching it around the area. I. It's harder now that we're doing the building. This fire department, this is obviously priority, but every so often I get to go out there and present and I love doing that, meeting other firefighters in different parts of the country. I love, love that. It's just harder these days.
- [63:14]
B
How do we find you? How do we find you? Like, do you teach a certain class out there? If someone's like, you know what? I like T. Shaw's message.
- [63:19]
A
Yeah. The easiest thing is my email. It's a Stephen Fshaw me dot com. So it's S, T, P, H, E, N, the letter f. And then shawe.com or through fire engineering. That's a pretty good way to go. A lot of people find me through fire engineering. I'm with our articles or podcasts, whatever. That's pretty easy as well.
- [63:36]
B
Got it.
- [63:37]
A
And, you know, I get a lot of questions about what we're doing here in Jupiter. A lot. Like, we're hiring a training chief right now. I've got, I think, 43 applications right now.
- [63:46]
B
Wow.
- [63:47]
A
They're coming in. I got people calling me left and right about the, the. What it looks like, how it's going to work. So they want to talk to me about that? I love. I could talk about that all day.
- [63:56]
B
There you go.
- [63:57]
A
But, yeah, so reach out. Even if it's just a talk shop, I love that stuff.
- [64:02]
B
Perfect. And I will say to those listeners here, just give them a phone call. Start with an email, but give him a phone call. I do want to say thank you again, Chief, spending the last hour and 10 minutes with us today to share your leadership message. One that I believe hasn't been, you know, man, touched on a lot of the stuff. And so this is, this is new, it's fresh, and I love it. For the listeners, if this message resonated with you, please follow the Kitchen table or on any podcast outlet so we can continue this conversational leadership and spread it all amongst across the fire service around the country and further. So before we officially close, Chief, lasting thoughts to our listeners, I'll just sum it up.
- [64:39]
A
Our words have massive amount of weight, you know, and I encourage everybody to use those words as much as they possibly can. Default to communication, default to conversations. Ask questions. And once those questions are asked, they'll open the door for future conversations and dialogues. And that's what the fire service needs right now. So. But thanks for having me on today, bro.
- [64:57]
B
I really appreciate it. Thanks for tuning in today to the Kitchen Table. Truly hope you found this time valuable. And we hope we've inspired you to take action, to lead and to spread the leadership conversation. Until next time, be safe, be intentional, stay curious.