← Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table 
Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table
Ep. 64: Jack Rives, Lieutenant General - True Leadership is More than a Title
01:04:53
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If someone was not properly trained for a job and made a mistake, did something very poorly, I told people that's my fault. If they are properly trained and don't do it right, it's their fault. As a leader, which would you rather have? You'd rather give them the right training and teach them right the right way and hold them accountable? Always hold people accountable for doing their job or you're not doing your job effectively as a leader.
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Being rescued from a three story apartment building.
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The First Responder Liaison Network is proud.
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To present to you the Kitchen Table Podcast.
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Join us as we explore leadership from perspectives around the globe. From firefighters to fire chiefs, civilians to.
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CEOs.
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Our conversations have one simple goal. Build more leaders.
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Good afternoon and today we're back in Virginia as we tune in with Lieutenant General Jack R. On the Kitchen Table. And the theme for today is True Leadership. It's more than a title. We're talking action, decisiveness, open mindedness, compromise, collaboration, teamwork and so much more. Jack L. Ribes received both his Bachelor of Arts in Political Science and Law school degrees from the University of Georgia. Following graduation from law school, he began a 33 year career in the United States Air Force as a military attorney or judge advocate. He served as the Judge Advocate General of the United States Air Force, the senior US Air Force Attorney, and he was the first military attorney to attain the three star rank of Lieutenant General. Jack Rives led and managed some 4,600 legal professionals worldwide, including 2,600 active duty, Reserve component and civilian lawyers. Among his military awards and decorations are the Distinguished Service Medal with Oak Leaf Cluster and the Defense Superior Service Medal. On May 1, 2010, Jack began serving as the Executive Director of the American Bar association, the largest voluntary association of lawyers in the world. He had overall management responsibility for staff operations at the association's headquarters in Chicago, at program sites around the United States and in some 60 countries throughout the world. He oversaw a staff of more than 1,000 people and a consolidated budget of over $200 million. On September 1, 2023, Jack began his current duties as a President of Rocket Legal Professional Services, a subsidiary of Rocket Lawyer, which makes the law affordable and accessible. Since 2008, Rocket Lawyer has helped over 35 million people create over 100 million legal documents and get their legal questions answered. Jack spearheads the company's alternative business structure initiatives and executes AI strategy and solutions that accelerate productivity while being well regulated and controlled by human judgment. Jack is a member of the Georgia Bar association and the American Law Institute. He currently serves on the boards of Q Smart AI and the Leadership Crucible Foundation. And his prior board service includes the board of Trustees of the U.S. air Force aid Society. Good afternoon, Jack. Thanks for being a guest on the kitchen table today. How are you?
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A
I'm doing well, Bern. Good afternoon. It's a pleasure to be with you.
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B
Thank you so much. I am intrigued to talk leadership with you today. Most of our we'll say our guest base has been fire service leaders, so I'm honored to have a three star lieutenant general of the Air Force come talk. Leadership perspective is one thing that we always talk about on this show. So by having you with us today, we get to expand our perspective today and get to tune in to. I'm sure it's going to be a phenomenal leadership conversation. But before we get there, would you mind sharing a little bit about Jack, Jack R. Maybe your journey in life, your leadership positions, and then we could dive into the conversation today?
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A
Sure. Thank you. Berlin. So I come from a small town in northwest Georgia, about 50 miles from Atlanta. I don't come from a military family. When I started college, I had a opportunity for a scholarship through the Reserve Officer Training Corps that gave me a four year commitment in the Air Force. I received what's called an educational delay to go to law school first. And then I was looking forward to serving my four years and getting out and being a litigator probably in Atlanta. My first Air Force assignment was to upstate New York and I really enjoyed it there. But I, I decided, okay, let me volunteer for some other places so I can see more of the world in my four years. So I went from upstate New York to Korea, to Greece, The Philippines, Washington D.C. for the first time. And by the time I'd been in the Air Force nine and a half years, I had moved seven times. So obviously I stayed in more than four years. But I also enjoyed the esprit de corps, the camaraderie and the opportunity to practice law in the United States Air Force. You get to do it the right way. I was really a member of two professions, the profession of law and also the military profession. And so I kept having good opportunities. I did things I didn't think I would even want to do. I moved around the world 16 times. I was able to visit every state and more than 50 countries. I enjoyed every one of my assignments and I had some different sort of opportunities. I enjoyed everything I did and it was worthwhile. And the best part of it were the people I was able to serve with. The military, of course has had an all volunteer force for more than 50 years now. And you learn how to work with people and to collaborate. And even though I became a senior officer, I never issued an order. I would work with people. Just because I didn't issue an order didn't mean that I, I didn't expect my instructions to be followed. I just didn't have to issue an order. I could work with people and make sure they understood what we were doing and why we were doing it. So as I progressed through the military and you, you highlighted my service. My last job, I was the senior JAG in the Air Force for about six years. JAG, of course, is the military term judge advocate for a military attorney. And then I knew a lot of people at the American Bar Association. They had an opening for the executive director position, which is essentially the chief executive officer. I didn't know if I'd really want the job or be good for it, but I decided to apply. So that's one of the lessons for your audience. Be careful what you apply for. I was selected for it and a part of it really that I did with, with every job I had in the Air Force, as well as if you have a positive attitude, you'll get good benefit from it. I went to some places that a lot of people weren't volunteering from. I did some jobs. A lot of people wondered, why would you do that job? But each one was worthwhile, a good experience, and I was able to see how I can make a difference and contribute. So the American Bar association again, I thought I'd be there for a year or two. Ended up being there almost 13 years. I never intended the American Bar association to be my last job. And so I had met the leadership of Rocket Lawyer and they talked to me about moving over to actually start a law firm with Rocket Lawyer. Rocket Lawyer is an online legal service provider. It's been around since 2008 and has helped almost 40 million people, primarily in the United States, but in other countries as well. And they wanted to form their own law firm, which without getting into the technicalities of it, we're doing now through a home base in Arizona. And it's a really good experience. We're able to make the laws simple and accessible and affordable, which is what it should be. People shouldn't be afraid to get legal advice because they, they believe it's too hard to find the right lawyer or it costs too much. So Rocket Lawyer, my job there is focused on making the law affordable and accessible.
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B
I, I'm curious because as you were in the military and you said you moved so many times. You, in fact, 16 times you moved and you visited. You. You've been to every state, you've been to so many different countries, but you said you enjoyed every assignment. Was that because you were an optimistic or positive person? Because there had to have been an assignment that you will say enjoyed less than others. And so how did you get to the point where you actually truly enjoyed every assignment that you got? And I mentioned that and asked that because, you know, in the fire service, being that this is fire service listener base, if you will, there's assignments that we get sometimes that are less coveted or less exciting, we'll call it, but we still got to make the best of things, you know, especially as we talk about opportunities present themselves in unique ways. So talk about, you know, every assignment that you've had, you enjoyed. And how is that?
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A
Yeah, you summarized it well when you said make the best of it, because there are several of the jobs I had, I, I wondered, okay, why does somebody go to law school to do that? Or, you know, I, I did some different sort of assignments. But if you go in with a positive attitude and you want to make the most of it, you're, you're serving with people, you can understand the impact you can have, and you can, you can look back with pride on what you did, and that's what you always want to be able to do. No matter what job you're in for your firemen, you know, there, there are some particular jobs that probably are less desirable, but the key is be able to look back with pride. I attended my, my wife's nephew graduation from UC Riverside about 20 years ago, graduating from college. And I was looking through the program and one, one of the speakers at another California system graduation ceremony had been a woodworker. And he, he, he came from an Italian family. When World War II came along, he volunteered to serve. After he got out of the army at the end of World War II, he, he got married. He was able to get a small house under the GI Bill, but he didn't have any furniture. So he, he bought some simple tools and he, he got plywood essentially, or thrown away wood supplies. He ended up being such a great woodworker that his furniture was in museums all over the world, including the Smithsonian. And he worked until he was in his late 90s. He went as to his shop every day and worked. And the thing I remember he said is, I never left the job without being able to take pride in what I had done. That day. And that ought to be the standard. Whatever you're assigned to do, do it with pride. Do it the right way. Otherwise you would be wasting your time and you'd be wasting the time of your leadership and your colleagues. There are jobs that are less desirable maybe, but they're important or someone wouldn't be doing it. Or one of your challenges may be if you're doing a job that people really don't want, find out if it is valuable and if it's not, let the leadership know. We really don't need to devote good people to this position.
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B
Interesting. So it's a responsibility of the individual in the position, regardless if you like the position or hate the position, is to find the value in it or the non value, but to communicate what you find, if you will. Right. Instead of just holding a position and doing nothing in it.
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A
Yeah, exactly. And again, the key word is pride. You are right. When you complete a job, you ought to be able to take pride in it. If you do it the right way, you can be proud of it. It doesn't mean you're going to get the 100 solution all the time because you can't procrastinate. You can't wait forever to try to make it perfect. But you can do a good job that you can say, okay, I, I did that in the manner I should. If I had more time, I would have done better. But I understand part of the job is doing it within a limited time frame.
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B
You obviously did a 33 year career in the United States Air Force. And I read and you mentioned that you were the first military attorney to attain the three star rank of Lieutenant General. How did you get to that level? Like what? You said you were going to do four years and get out and then you ended up being the first of its kind in this arena, you know, let alone being as, as high up as you went.
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A
Yeah, so I would. Part of it goes back to what we spoke about earlier. Be positive with all your jobs. Make the most of all of them. I knew people who came in the military and as military attorneys, their goal was to be the senior JAG or their goal was to make Colonel. My goal was to serve my four years honorably. And every time I was in an assignment, I did the best I could in that job without worrying about how long I would be there or what I would do next. You know, people who know you and are working the assignments to move on, take care of those things. The promotion to three star is, is fairly complicated, but making it simple at the turn of the century, after 9 11, the United States was involved in the global war on terror. And among the things that happened is we were fighting the Taliban and bin Laden who didn't follow the rules of war and the Geneva Conventions and so forth. And there were people who said since they don't follow them, we don't have to follow them either. And there were people in senior civilian governmental positions who said the rules don't apply to us and we can tell people they can do whatever they want. You know, you don't turn the other cheek, but you treat people like you're being treated. The military judge advocate community said we live by higher standards. We're the United States. We do things the right way. Again, take pride in what you're doing. Don't violate the rules just because the other side is doing that. Play by the rules. Do things the right way. There are rules for, for the conduct of war. The law of armed conflict is, is fairly well established. So the judge advocate community in those early years were saying do things the right way. This is the United States. You, many of your listeners have heard of enhanced interrogation techniques, waterboarding and so forth. The Jan community said that violates the domestic law, it violates international law. We don't train our troops to do it that way. After some bad things happened with American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, the members of United States Congress found some memos that the judge advocates had written that were classified. They had them declassified because it showed that we were saying do the right things. It's interesting because at a, at a typical base, the senior person, I'll speak Air Force terms which the ranks are the same in the army and similar in the, in the Marine Corps. The Navy uses different ranks, but at a typical base a colonel may be the senior person on base. In the Pentagon there are generals all around. Two star generals are all over the place in the Pentagon. At a, when I traveled to a base, if I was a one star or a two star, I was a distinguished visitor. And colonels were treated specially. But within the Pentagon they frequently would have meetings that were for three stars and above for three star generals and the civilian equivalent. And so the leadership in Congress realized that the JAG community had done the right thing, even though there were some issues with it. And we were confronted by some of the civilian leadership, including the Secretary of Defense. You know, why are you saying that? Why do you do this? And we knew it was the right thing to do. We knew even if other people didn't know what had happened or how it had happened or why we had to live with ourselves. We looked at ourselves in the mirror. So we did the right things. And so when the jags were testifying, and while I was a two star general in the Pentagon, I testified before congressional committees, primarily the Senate Armed Services Committee and the Senate Judiciary Committee almost 20 times from 2004 to 2009. And because of the way my colleagues and the other services and I presented things, the leadership in Congress decided, okay, the jags need to be invited into those meetings that only three stars and above are in. And so that's what led to Congress directing that our positions were three star positions. And I happen to be the first one. Among my colleagues from the army and the Navy who were also promoted to three stars, I was the first one to pin on.
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B
You mentioned pride. You, as I asked the question in regards to how did you, you know, you said you enjoyed every assignment and you know, not all of us get assignments that we enjoy every single one of them. But you kept saying, worrying about just every individual assignment, pride in each one. So would you say that success stems from taking care of whatever assignment is in front of you, regardless if you chose it were appointed something that you hated. But the success comes from just taking care of that one at a time because we're not always going to get, you know, the exact assignment that we're looking for. But that's, you know, it's opportunity, but it's taking advantage, but taking pride in every single one.
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A
Yeah, you said that. Well, Berlin. I'll just add that people often say, okay, you went to more than 50 countries, you visited every state, you had almost a dozen and a half different assignments while you were in for that 33 years. Which one did you enjoy the most? And I would tell them I really enjoyed all of them. And then, then I would pause and say, of course, enjoy is a relative term. There were some days that I did not have a particularly fun day, but I was able to do things the right way. You know, lawyers serve their clients and my client was the United States Air Force. I had some joint jobs. I was on the joint Chief of Staff, legal council job when General Colin Powell and General Shalakashvili were the chairmans of the Joint Chiefs. I have the utmost respect for them. But you know, there were days when I worked at the, the joint staff. Most often I'd be at the office before 6 in the morning and I rarely would leave before 7:30 in the evening. And frequently I didn't have time for any Meals, because we were doing, we were so busy. There were, there were times that I would think as I was driving in, in the morning, okay, here's half a dozen things I need to do this day. And then as I was driving home that evening, I was thinking, wow, that was really a busy day. We did all these important things and there were six things I wanted to do today and I didn't do any of them. Yeah, we were doing crisis management and we had to respond to those matters.
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B
Wow, that's. Well, let's dive right into the theme today because as we talk about leadership today, as we talk about opportunity, pride, success, all the above, the thing that we're going to talk about is true leadership. It's more than a title. So I'm sure the listeners have heard throughout their careers. You know, leadership is active. Leadership is a verb. Leadership is more than just words. Leadership is more than a rank. But being that we like to gather perspectives and thoughts from so many different individuals, from the military aspect, from the vast amount of experience that you bring to the table, being a three star lieutenant general, what does that mean to you when you say true leadership? It's more than a title.
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A
Yeah. So when a. So the military I mentioned, I come from the South. When I was a young boy, I called people older than me sir and ma'am, even if they weren't much older than me. So it came easy when I was in the military to call people who outranked me sir and ma'am, because I was raised that way. You know, some people from different parts of the country weren't raised that way. And so they didn't always use the right military courtesies, but we respect the rank a person holds. But you really come down and what's important is do you respect the person who's in that uniform, not just the rank? And so someone in a leadership position can have a title in the military, it's a more senior rank maybe. And the, in the private sector and you know, for, for a fireman, the fire chief, the captain, these are, these are titles. But it's, it's more than that. And all of your subordinates know, and you know, whether they respect you or not for the type of leadership you provide, it's not just the title you have, it's not just the position you're in. You get promoted because people believe you've done a good job and you're well suited for the next position. But not everyone does well in that next position. And so the title is there. But if you don't have the leadership skills, you're not going to be respected for it. You're going to crash and burn. You're not going to be successful.
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B
So you mentioned something interesting there. You said individuals will get promoted to the next position. Some people will say succeed or strive in that position. I'm sure you've heard of the Peter Principle. We've mentioned that in so many episodes long ago, but it just kind of went through my mind as you mentioned that. Have you seen that happen before in terms of.
- [21:47]
A
No, there were. And actually in the, in the JAG Corps, I'll talk about, there were people who did a tremendous job in various assignments. Then they were promoted to a leadership position of a small office maybe, and they're the senior judge advocate, they're the senior military attorney in that position, and they don't succeed in it. So if they're not succeeding, sometimes they're removed after a fairly short time because we can't have an office that has led that poorly. They can move on to other good jobs. They can even be promoted to other jobs. They may get another chance at leadership or they may not. They may not be capable of being a good manager even, or a good leader, but it doesn't mean that they don't have value to the organization. So I, I saw many people and the JAG Corps who were well regarded, had done good jobs, were given a particular leadership challenge, and they didn't perform well. So they were removed from that job. Because we can't have a person who's ineffective being in a job that requires good leadership, good skills, good management skills. And so I, I did frequently see that.
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B
Your, your, your explanation and your verbiage. It kind of goes without saying. You say we can't have certain individuals in these leadership roles because if you're ineffective, we can't have you there. Like it goes without saying. But we see it, right? We see it in industries. We see it to where, whether it be just because the process, lack of accountability, lack of whatever it may be, we do see ineffective leaders in roles all the time. So that's, I want to say, unique to the military because, you know, you just said that you know, they're removed. But these, some of these individuals get opportunities to go to a different division and different assignments, maybe get promoted something else where they could be effective. But that's, that's very interesting. And because we don't in the, we'll just use the fire service, right? But we have ineffective leaders in roles. I mean, we do, right? I mean in many industries as well. So it's, it's intriguing to, to hear that the military or industries that you, that you've been a part of will simply remove people because they, they need effective people in roles.
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A
Yeah, absolutely. So one of the interesting things, when I first started at the American Bar Association, I've been in the military 33 years. Most people in today's world don't have experience with people in the military. You know, it used to be everyone, we had the draft in the United States. Everyone knew their, their father, their brother, their sister, their cousin. They knew someone in the military. Now a lot of people really don't know anyone who has served in the military. And so when I was chosen for the position at the American Bar Association, I was, I was proud of what I'd done in the military. But I told people call me Jack. You know, I left my military rank behind. I'm proud of what I had done in the military. I earned the, the rank I had, but I'm not the type of person who would continue to sign documents with my military rank because that's not the job I was in at the time. But, but I did have responsibilities to be an effective leader and manager at the American Bar Association. And a lot of a common question I got for years was it must have been a really tough challenge to go from the military to the American Bar Association. And I said, actually I hadn't thought of that until the question was raised the first time. But I realized no, everything I did in the military prepared me to lead the American Bar Association. I developed some leadership and management skills that do translate into the private sector. And same thing with my current job at Rocket Lawyer. I, the skills I picked up in other jobs apply in this job. It's dramatically different. You know, I'm not the CEO of the organization. I am the president of the law firm within the organization. But the skills you build up are transferable. If you do things the right way, you're going to learn things that you can use later in life in other positions that, that may be very dissimilar from what you had been in, in the military. You know, I said earlier that I, I didn't give an order, but still people, I didn't have to give an order because especially once I became senior, no one woke up in the morning and, and wondered what they could do to upset the three star general. I went to the American Bar Association. I was in a position where I had little directive authority, especially the American Bar Association. When I arrived there had over 400, 000 members. And people would talk to people, would sometimes introduce me as the leader of the ABA. And I said, no, I'm the person with 400, 000 bosses. And so, you know, you need to work with people, you need to collaborate. Even if you are in a position of authority and responsibility, you don't flaunt it the wrong way. You just work with people and, and that's the way I prefer to do things.
- [26:42]
B
Wow, I love that. So you said exactly what I was gonna go back and say. You said you never issued an order and obviously there's a lot of trust, built credibility. You worked your way up and people around you enjoyed working for you, didn't wanna let you down, however you wanna name it. So my question is, how did you get there? Right? So like we all, you know, we'll use a fire service for an example. We don't have much leadership development, if you will. Right. There's on the job experience. You become competent in your job and the hard skills of the job. And you know, through the years of experience you become, and you gain leadership experience and you become a great leader or ineffective leader, however you want to look at it. But so how did you get to the point where you didn't have to issue an order and that was your leadership style and people viewed you as that.
- [27:26]
A
Yeah. So I've mentioned management and leadership. You manage things, you lead people. And in the military, they have a really good process. You know, I've mentioned that it's been more than 50 years since we had a draft. So that means you have to work with people. No one has to join the military. You want to make it a good experience for them. You want it to be meaningful for them. And so I had early opportunities to be in management positions and in leadership and I got promoted to successfully more challenging positions. If I, you know, I mentioned people who don't, don't always succeed. You mentioned the Peter principal by name. And if I had failed in one of those positions, my leadership potential would have stopped there, probably. Right. And I would have, I would have retired as a lieutenant colonel or colonel. Instead, the leadership kept saying, okay, Jack is doing a good job in this and he's a good candidate to do this job. So when I went to that job, they were pleased with me and I got other positions of responsibility, new challenges. And by proving myself in those jobs, I was able to develop my own skills as a leader and I was able to go to positions of greater responsibility. So that's how it worked again, I didn't, I didn't just come out of law school as a three star general. I started as a captain who was responsible for, early on I had a young airman who worked with me in planes and as a local defense counsel. I had an airman, not even a sergeant, who worked with me as my paralegal manager. And as I went through the chain, I'd have two paralegals working for me and a civilian. And then my first real leadership challenge was at a base in upstate New York. And I had four attorneys who were on my staff. I had five more lawyers who were in the Guard and Reserve. I had six military paralegals and three civilian paralegals. And so I got opportunities to work with them, to learn from them and to manage and lead. And I do emphasize that leaders learn from the people you're leading. You know, you want to encourage good feedback on how you're doing. If you, you know, the saying is if you, if you shoot the messenger, you won't get messages.
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B
It's exactly true.
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A
I would tell people, you know, I worked with people said I really want to know so and so, but they don't really, they had thin skin, they, you couldn't criticize them, you couldn't say negative things. But I told people, look, I, I learned more from criticism than I do from compliments. So by all means, tell me what you don't like. And frequently I'd realize their perception was something that wasn't even accurate. So I, I realized a part of my job was rumor control. And so I, you know, I, but if I, if someone said, you know, we don't like this that you're doing, and I would, I would talk to them about it. I would never say, I would never correct them or say, well, you're wrong with that. Instead I would learn from that and I'd realize fundamentally it's my communication problem is why they believed I was not doing something or I was doing something the wrong way. And that gave me the opportunities to correct the perceptions of what I was doing and why.
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B
As you talk about this stuff, it sounds like you, you brought about on yourself just your own self accountability and everything. And later there's a question that we talk about, well, what's a, what's a book, a leadership book that you'd recommend or individuals to read and you had mentioned extreme ownership is one of them. So this next question is in regard to ownership and accountability. So it's, my question is how does the U.S. air Force and the military Ensure there's accountability. But it sounds like in your case, what you're kind of getting at is, and I know Jocko talks about this in his book, he talks about he doesn't really have to hold people accountable because the people already. They already want to do things. Because if you have to hold people accountable is because they didn't understand the mission. They didn't understand what needed to be done. And it sounds like in your case, you worked with your people and they. You never had to issue an order because your people understood that. So the question is, how do you. How did you have to hold. Or how did you get to the point where you didn't have to hold your people accountable because they knew what needed to be done?
- [31:52]
A
Yeah. So I would say, actually, we always hold people accountable, but we do it the right way. You know, you don't need to rip someone apart if they don't do something the right way. If you. If you look at it and if you take ownership, one of the reasons they didn't do it right is because you didn't explain it properly. You didn't train them effectively. So you need to own it as the leader. You need to take responsibility for it. But then, you know, I would tell people, you know, if you make a mistake, that's okay. You know, don't. Don't be too reluctant to tell me you messed up with something I need to know or I can't handle it effectively. So I would. I would find out what happened, and if someone made a mistake, that was okay, and I would tell them, look, it's. If you made the mistake before, that's okay. I can accept people making an honest mistake. But at some point, I would tell them, you're going to have to go to another job because you keep making too many mistakes.
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B
Right.
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A
The same mistake, the same way. So that you do need to hold people accountable. One of the fundamental problems with a lot of people in leadership positions is they do not hold people accountable. They need to own it themselves and take responsibility for training someone effectively. When I first got to the American Bar Association, I realized they didn't have a very good training program. And so I told my senior leadership team that we're going to have a very good training program in all of these areas, and training is going to be mandatory for everyone. And sometimes my subordinates would say, well, I don't have time for this. And the director of HR would say, well, you know, objected that the day it was assigned, so if he can make time for it, he's a lot busier than you. You can make time for it. And, and so if someone was not properly trained for a job and made a mistake, did something very poorly, I told people that's my fault. If they are properly trained and don't do it right, it's their fault. As a leader, which would you rather have? You'd rather give them the right training and teach them right, the right way and hold them accountable? Always hold people accountable for doing their job or you're, you're not doing your job effectively as a leader? Because some people will do everything right almost all the time. Other people will mess up too often if you don't distinguish between those people, if you give them the same reward, whether they did it well or not, then the people who give the extra effort to learn how to do it and do it the right way are going to say, why should I bother doing it the right way? My boss doesn't care.
- [34:31]
B
Yeah.
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A
So you need to differentiate between those who put in the effort, learn how to do it the right way and, and do it the right way. And back to the word pride. Pride in it. And if they don't do it right, hold them accountable. By all means, hold them accountable. Sometimes you do. Typically, I would at least for the first time, hold someone accountable in private. You know, you don't need to reprimand someone publicly, but if someone keeps messing up or in certain circumstances, you know, you do want to say we're not going to tolerate that here. You have to do it the right way.
- [35:02]
B
It almost goes without saying. You would think right. Like hold yourselves accountable, but also hold those accountable to their work. Because otherwise. Yeah. How can you achieve a high performing organization, high performing crew team, if you're not holding each other accountable to this? We'll call it high standard, but we'll just say high performance. Right. Like we all want to be high performing individuals and organizations. I think that goes without saying. I would hope, but accountability is key. I mentioned, Jack, that I listened to your conversation with Chief Brugman and you were talking about the four goals at the American Bar association and one of the goals was goal number three. And I wanted to lean on this because I love this topic and I want to kind of spend some time here because the goal number three at the American Bar association is eliminate bias and enhancing diversity. So can you explain why that is the number one goal or, sorry, that is one of the goals and why that is so important?
- [35:57]
A
Yeah. So the American Bar association only has four goals. And I would frequently say you Know, goal three is absolutely critical because we, you're never going to do it perfectly, but the American Bar association has a goal of eliminating bias in the legal profession, but eliminating bias in any profession. You know, for a fireman, you, you can't be biased against someone because of things outside of their control. You know, what gender are they, how tall they are, how much they weigh? You know, there are certain standards that a fire department is going to have. The military certainly, certainly has. There is a way, you know, the military lawfully discriminates. You have to be at least a certain height, and below another height, you have to weigh at least a certain amount. One of my really good captains, when I was first in charge of an office, weighed 128 pounds. His minimum weight. He was 6 foot 2. His minimum weight was 128 pounds. And he had to pig out to get up to 128lbs so he could come on active duty in the first place. But we don't want to. We want to give people a fair opportunity to succeed and to excel. And if you're biased against them, whether it's an intentional bias or an unintentional bias, you're not giving them a fair shot. And that, you know, think about, you know, Berlin, you mentioned you have children. How would you like your children to be treated? Would you like it to be a level playing field where they're given the opportunity to prove themselves? Or do you want them to work for somebody who just doesn't like the way they look? Or you've got a daughter and the job is in the past been filled by a boy instead of a girl. Do you want her to be discriminated against because she's not a boy? No. She deserves a chance to, to prove herself. So one of the goals of the American Bar Association, a part of goal three is eliminate bias and also enhance diversity. You know, there's a lot of talk these days about dei, and it can be taken to an extreme. But what enhanced diversity means is, again, a part of it is not being biased against people and having the United States Air Force or the fire department looking like the public you serve, if the only people you had in it looked were from a certain, certain ethnicity, had a certain religion, had come from a certain part of the neighborhood. You're not representing the community. Everyone, regardless of the background, can serve effectively and can make contributions. But if you're biased against them, if you only have people who look a certain way, then people are going to say, okay, that fire department is just A bunch of Caucasian men or, or black women or whatever it may be. So the ABA goal there is to enhance diversity. It's have people in positions based on merit. Yes, but don't deny someone an opportunity based on factors not within their control. You know, where they were born, how they, how they look, their, their religion, their, their family background, where they grew up. There are things that are not within our control. But when I used to talk to judge advocates, especially the new ones, I would tell them there are a lot of things that are not within your control. Something that is within your control is what you've done by volunteering to serve in the United States Air Force. Something within your colleague's control is volunteering to become a farm, a fireman, and, and serving the community by being as effective in the job as possible. That's a decision, and that's something anyone should have control over. And you're denied the opportunity to do it if your organization is biased or if, or if it's not diverse. Diversity means having people who are well qualified in the position and not discriminating against someone just because of background factors, their race, religion, ethnicity, cultural background, whatever it may be, that is not a matter within their control.
- [40:04]
B
So you mentioned eliminate bias, and obviously you mentioned conscious and unconscious bias, because we all have implicit biases, right? I think we would all, I hope we would all agree that there's unconscious bias within us just because of our upbringings or our backgrounds, whatever it may be, our experiences and so forth. How does the American Bar association or the US Military, or in your experience, how have you been able to try and eliminate bias? We'll say, right, recognizing is one thing, recognizing that you have certain biases, but then trying to actively, and we'll use the word intentionally, I know we talked about that, intentionally, strive to eliminate bias where we can. How does one do that? Or how does the American Bar association do that?
- [40:45]
A
Yeah, so it's a goal of the American Bar Association. You know, you should have, you should have worthy goals, strive for. But if you don't know, if you don't have a goal, then you can meander in the desert and any path will get you there. But if you know what you want to accomplish and it's a worthy goal, then you're more likely to do it. So a part of being intentional, a part of eliminating bias is being sensitive to the fact that you have some unintentional biases and being alert to that factor and occasionally looking around a room. I know when I first started the American Bar Association, I looked at the people who were in senior leadership positions, and they all pretty much looked like me. By the time I left. Only about a third of them looked like me. The rest of them were women, people of color, people of different sexual orientations. They were. They were chosen for the job because of their qualifications, though not to fill a square. And people understood that this person was in the job because she was the very best we had. This person was chosen because of his background, and it wasn't because of other factors that really weren't relevant to. Do you have the experience? Do you have the right work ethic? Can you do the job? And yeah, you talked about be intentional. One of the things, Berlin, that I. I commented for you was I noticed your tagline and your signature block on an email you sent me was the intentional and stay curious. And I love that, because a big part of being successful is being curious, you know, asking the questions we've all heard. My wife actually mentioned this at dinner last night, that the only bad question is the one you don't ask. And so you're not going to learn if you don't ask questions. I. When I was younger, I was fairly shy, and I sat in the back of the room and I rarely raised my hand or anything. I rarely wanted to comment. I figured someone else would talk about it. But as you mature, you realize, okay, probably everyone's. A lot of other people, maybe not everyone, but a lot of people are going to have the same question. And whether it's. I was in a meeting the other day with a senior colleague, and one of my subordinates was in the meeting with us, and the other person started using an acronym. And I was trying to figure out what he was talking about, but my supportant said, excuse me, but could you tell me what that acronym stands for? And I thanked him for asking the question because I really didn't know either.
- [43:15]
B
Yeah.
- [43:15]
A
So, you know, the only bad question, seriously, is the one you don't ask. And the people leading a discussion would much prefer you understand what they're talking about than for you to be ignorant. I've heard people. I. I've heard people say, well, I'm blissfully ignorant. If I'm ignorant of something, I'm not going to be blissful about it. I would rather know what I don't know. I'd rather. I'd rather learn what I need to know so that I can do my job most effectively.
- [43:43]
B
Absolutely. So you have worked in the public sector and the private sector. Is diversity important in the workforce?
- [43:52]
A
Yeah. 100 important because the United States as a country of diverse people, you know, we've got all shapes and sizes and backgrounds. However you want to, however you want to talk about what we make up, the end result is the United States of America. When I was at the American Bar association, twice a year we had large meetings, the mid year meeting and the annual meeting. And one of the important meetings was with the House of delegates, which is 600 attorneys from around the country and the world who make the policies of the American Bar Association. One year, my theme for the staff was we are the aba. And I had the graphic come in with a, with hundreds of individual pictures of people on staff. And when they all formed together, they formed the words we are the aba. And I had that as a theme. And I would have individuals say, you know, we are the ABA would be their tagline. But they would build up to it by talking about their own personal experience. You know, one I remember one of the women was her. Her family, her parents had both immigrated from Vietnam and she was the aba. We had another person who love that, who happened to be gay, another person who had whatever background, but together we formed the matrix that became the American Bar Association. We are the aba. So the individual pieces are important, but together is what's really important. So working together, collaborating, that's important. And being sensitive to people who have a different background is important. Getting to know them, understanding what they do, accepting the fact that they're going to do some things differently, but they're dedicated to accomplish the good things that we were trying to do, whether it was in the military at the American Bar association or in my current position at Rocket Lawyer.
- [45:54]
B
That's awesome. So let's move to rapid fire. Chief. As we talked about things like pride today, we talked about accountability. We talking about diversity. We talked about, you know, worrying about your assignment, taking pride in the things you do. Talk about implicit bias, leadership is action. And all the other things that we talked about today. If you're going to talk to certain groups of individuals and just kind of leave them with something to start doing to kind of grow their, their leadership potential to grow as individual leaders, what would you say to these groups and the first one being firefighters?
- [46:24]
A
Yeah. Be alert. Realize that General Patton made the observation that you are always on parade and I, you know, as firefighters, people are going to be looking at what you do when you're in the community. You're not always going to be in uniform, but people are going to know you're a firefighter and you're representing your colleagues as firefighter, I'll ask you the question, do you want to look sloppy? Do you want to give them a bad impression? Or do you want to look like a sharp member of the community, a good citizen who is serving in the fire department? And the answer is obvious. So, you know, realize you are always on parade. They're going to be people who notice you, even if you don't know who they are. They're going to know that you're a firefighter. They're going to respect the fact that you're serving the community. But if they see you looking sloppy or screaming at someone not having respect, you know that's going to be an issue. When I was at the American Bar association, early on, I visited the people in the call center, customer service. And that's a really important job. And I told the people who are providing customer service, they. How important they were. They. They were the voice of the American Bar Association. They talked to more people than I did or the president of the ABA did, because they were on the phone all the time handling the. The customer service issues. So my first time in there, one of the guys providing customer service said, hey, Jack, do you want to listen in? And so he gave me the headphones, and it happened. This one lawyer started ripping him apart, and he was screaming at him and saying all kind of nasty things. I said, boy, this guy's a real jerk. And I remember the customer service representative's name is Reuben. And Reuben looked at me and said, jack, your mic is hot. I didn't realize my mic was on. Yeah, so I. I immediately said to the person on the phone, I said, look, I'm. I'm. I'm not normally assigned to the customer. I didn't tell them who I was or what I was doing. I said, I'm not assigned to the customer service center. I haven't been trained here. My apologies for saying that. I didn't realize I had a hot mic. To his credit, this lawyer who was being a jerk, paused for a few seconds while I was thinking, okay, he's going to file a complaint, and he'll probably want to file it with me, who is the executive director. And I'll say, okay, that's me. But. But he. He was silent for probably at least 10 seconds. And then he. His response was perfect. He said, actually, you're right. I was being a jerk. It wasn't the customer service representative's fault. He was being very polite and professional. I was upset. It wasn't his fault. I was being A jerk. So, you know, I, I appreciate you telling me that.
- [49:13]
B
Wow. And that's.
- [49:14]
A
After that, I, I learned my lesson about.
- [49:18]
B
That's that that's powerful there. Because I'm just gonna stop there for a second because it sound like. Because not every individual would have responded that way. Right. That individual would have. Could have been very offensive, could have filed a complaint, you know, or defensive, I should say, could have got defensive and all that. But that individual. Let's just use both parties. We talked about extreme ownership or accountability earlier. That individual first of all stopped and paused, probably reflected on his actions before opening his mouth and then took individual responsibility or accountability. And so obviously that goes both ways. Right. Like, yeah, that probably led to. I mean, what was the end result, if I can ask?
- [49:54]
A
Yeah. So the end result was he calmed down. The customer service representative, Reuben, really good guy, explained to him what he could do. And the men realized that he wasn't going to be able to get exactly what he was after. But what Reuben was offering was very reasonable and it was fair. Yeah. And so he calmed down. And, and I did check a few times after that, he kept renewing his membership. So that's a part, that's a part of the final answer. Yeah, but you know, that's, and that's one of the important factors. I know when I'm dealing with someone in customer service, a lot of, A lot of times I'll be sympathetic to them. I'll say, you know, I know your job is tough, but.
- [50:34]
B
Right.
- [50:35]
A
I'm actually frustrated. You're. I don't, I'm the victim here. I don't want to take it out on you, but, you know, I would, I would try to carefully explain the situation. A well trained customer service rep. And like at the American Bar association, we did not let people take calls until they'd been through six weeks of training. So they really learn how to handle it effectively.
- [50:57]
B
Of course. Makes sense. Well, so the emerging leader now the same. Right. But if any different, if you're talking to an emerging leader, what's something that you would recommend to them in their emerging role as leaders to grow.
- [51:09]
A
Yeah. So, you know, I talked earlier about, don't be shy about asking questions. But the most important thing I would say for an emerging leader and for a leader is to listen. You know, I learned a long time ago that you learn more when you listen than when you talk. Yes. A lot of times you'll, you'll want to say something so badly you're not going to listen to the other party. But listen, you're going to learn a lot when you listen. And if you're calm and patient and you listen, then you're going to learn more and you can handle it more effectively. But I, I don't know of any good leader who is not a good listener.
- [51:45]
B
Powerful. Right there. You learn more when you listen. You don't know of a good leader that didn't, that wasn't a good listener. I love that.
- [51:52]
A
So you listened to me?
- [51:53]
B
Yes, I did. I listen, I take notes and I try and adopt. So that's why I love this stuff. Okay. There's a high ranking individual in the fire department tuning into this message today. If anything different or anything in addition, what's something those groups of individuals could do to continue to grow as leaders?
- [52:11]
A
Yeah. So again, the fundamental thing I would say is to listen and ask questions when they need to clarify. Realize that people are going to always be looking to you. When you're in a leadership position. You may not realize it, but even walking to your car, the way you drive, or the various things where people see you when you're not, strictly speaking, in the office, they're going to learn about you from that. And it's not going to be sometimes what you would like them to take about you. So you need to be careful. You need to realize that people are going to learn from watching you. And the other important thing for a person as you get to senior positions is sometimes you're insulated from people and they'll tell you what you, you want to know or what they think you want to know. And I would always tell people, look, I, I really need you to be candid with me. I need you to tell me what you really think or what you hear other people saying. You know, sometimes people don't want to say, I believe so, but if you say, okay, you, you don't have to make it personal. So, you know, tell me what your friend John believes about this.
- [53:21]
B
That's right.
- [53:21]
A
Someone else. So, so you, you want to get the candid feedback. I've worked with a lot of people who say they welcome candid feedback, but in fact they really don't.
- [53:30]
B
Right.
- [53:31]
A
You know, they've got thin skin themselves. I've worked with a lot of people who said, you know, for, in a firehouse it's probably different because most of your doors are open. But in an office, I've worked with people who said, I've got an open door policy, but first of all, physically their door was closed all the time. And even if the door was open, they would say, don't bother me. You know that wave, wave you off when you try to come talk to them. So I, when I was in various positions, even as a general in the Pentagon or as the leader of the American Bar association, my door would be open unless I was having a sensitive, private discussion. And when my door was open, if someone came in and said, sorry to bother you, I may hold up one finger and say, you know, let me finish this one thought that I'm typing. But then I would look up to them and I, I would typically get away from my desk and my computer, my keyboard, and I would, I would sit across from them face to face and focus on them. If I only had five minutes, I would tell them, I'm glad to talk to you, I've only got five minutes now. So they knew up front that this was not the time to shoot the bull about things. But let's get right to the point of what you need. So, so encouraging people to tell you what you need to know, you know, it's not going to be a one way street. Leadership involves listening and learning and hearing from other people about perceptions. And perception becomes reality. I spoke before about managing. Gossip was a big part of my job, and it's a part of the leader's job. One year I spoke to the House of Delegates at the American bar Association. It's 600 people who make the policies of the ABA. They meet twice a year. And one year I gave him a presentation that I thought would, you know, I don't want to bore them. So I, I had 10 rumors, the 10 biggest rumors I've heard recently at the ABA. And I went through them and I debunked every one of the rumors for months after that. I was hearing Jack said so and so, and I said, okay. I said, that was a bad rumor. I corrected the rumor.
- [55:31]
B
Yeah.
- [55:32]
A
So after that, when I would tell people, you know, part of my job is rumor control, they would say, oh, give me, give me an example of a good rumor. And I would say, no, I don't give, I don't give examples of the rumors. I've learned that.
- [55:43]
B
Not anymore.
- [55:44]
A
You know, you need to be true to yourself. You need to be honest. What you do speaks a lot more loudly than what you say. And so it's nice if someone gives a good speech or something, but if you're not authentic, people know it and they give you no credibility and they're not going to enjoy even a great speech.
- [56:02]
B
Yeah.
- [56:03]
A
So you need to, you know, I always I always practice leadership by walking around. When I was in the Pentagon, I would frequently, you know, the Pentagon's a huge building, has 30, 000 people in at any given time. But once you know how to get around in the Pentagon, you can go from any spot in the Pentagon to the furthest place away in six minutes just by walking. But, but you have to learn the Pentagon and know how to get to room 5E313, which was my office for a period of time. So, you know, it's a big building. It can be, it can be daunting, it can, it can be a little bit intimidating. But I would, I would go around and see people where they worked and I would just pop in. And especially when I was a senior officer, sometimes they would call back to my office and say, why didn't you tell us General Rise was coming? And my staff would say he had 30 minutes blank on his schedule. We didn't know where he went. He's a free American citizen, he can walk. And so, you know, it was interesting. Typically it would be the more senior people who were more intimidated with me just popping in on them in the office. And I would always try to be friendly and just listen to them. How's your day going? What's going on? What are you working on? And the more junior people, the non commissioned officers, the sergeants, typically really enjoyed me coming by. And so, you know, I'm not saying every senior person didn't like for me to pop in on them. They, they learned that that was part of my leadership style. But I would encourage people in leadership positions to get away from their desk.
- [57:35]
B
Yeah.
- [57:35]
A
And for firefighters, that's easier because you can't be behind the desk and do the job. But, you know, see people where they are and, and you know, the good leaders are the ones who walk around and see, see the, the team as they're preparing to go out to potentially fight a fire, as they go out to help someone with another issue. You know, you're out there, you're not getting in their way, but you're, you're showing that you care about what they're doing.
- [58:02]
B
Yeah, showing face, being with them, meeting people where they're at, not expecting them to meet you where you're at. So I love that we're about to go to Leadership Challenge here. I mentioned the leadership or, excuse me, your favorite book or reading, Leadership Based Extreme Ownership, was that that's the book that you recommend to our listeners? Yes.
- [58:20]
A
Yeah, that's the. If I had to pick one book you know, I said the, the summary of it is own it. You know, take responsibility, have accountability. And the, the full title of the book, you sounds like you read the book.
- [58:33]
B
It was recommended to many of us within our organization. It's one of few books that was globally recommended. Extreme Ownership. So most of us, yes, but that's just, we have listener base from everywhere. So.
- [58:44]
A
Yeah, so, yeah. So the, the full name of the book is Extre Ownership How U. S. Seals Lead and Win. And the writers are two seals who fought in, in Iraq and Afghanistan during the, during the global war on terror. And the two writers are Jocko Willink and Leif Babin. And my company has brought him in to give leadership lectures and, and they, they say things that are based on their experiences and, and you know, they. No one's going to be perfect. I, I don't believe anyone is a born leader. You learn how to do it effectively. You mentioned earlier to lead as a verb. You have to be active and don't be afraid of making mistakes. No one's going to be perfect. The only way you make mistakes is to not do anything. So you make a mistake, but learn the right lesson, take responsibility, say, I'm sorry it was my, it was my mistake, but learn the right lessons from it. So next time when it may be even more critical that you do the right thing, you've learned the right lessons from it. And that's why I don't mind someone making a mistake if they, like I said earlier, if they keep making the same mistake, there may be a problem. But there's a story of Tom Watson who formed IBM. He started off as a cash register salesman working for national cash register 120 years ago. And his first week on the job, he didn't sell a single cash register. And he went back to his boss, you know, the chief salesman, and he said he assumed he was going to be fired. And the chief salesman said, why would I fire you? You know, it's my fault for not teaching you properly. Let's go out together. He took him out and at the end of a year, Tom Watson was the person who sold more cash registers than anyone in the company. And later there's a story about Tom Watson when he, he was president of IBM and he, one of the famous things that happened was, and this is in the 50s when money was even different, but he had a senior, one of his senior people who made a mistake that cost IBM $750,000. And so he was at lunch shortly after it happened and one of his Colleagues said, well, I guess you fired that guy. And Tom Watson said, why would I fire him? He learned a seven hundred fifty thousand dollar lesson. And that's the important thing. You know, don't people make mistakes? Sometimes it's going to cost your company something serious, whether it's money or something else. But if you learn the right lessons from it, your bosses will groom you for the senior leadership positions. And if you made that mistake years before and now you're the leader, you're going to be humble and you're going to accept the fact that no one's perfect.
- [61:31]
B
I love that. I love that. What a way to, what a way to close leadership ownership. Lead by example. That's, that's, that's quite the message. Thank you. Leadership challenge. So we're here today because Chief Randy Bergman challenged you to be a future guest on this show and that's how this conversation is possible. So the goal here at the kitchen table is to help spread this leadership conversation so it doesn't end. To bring in perspectives, to have our listeners base, tune in, adopt and hopefully leave the fire service in a better place tomorrow than it is today. So I'll ask, is there someone else out there that you would challenge to be a guest on the kitchen table?
- [62:09]
A
Yeah, I've got a, a number of people I could bring up, but it happens. The person who's at the top of my mind happens to be a military person as well. He was also a, a military attorney in the Air Force, a judge advocate, Brigadier General Jim Swanson. He's, I've heard him give incredible lectures and discussions on leadership. He's always well prepared, he gives great examples and he, he's the person I'd recommend. General Swanson, that's awesome.
- [62:41]
B
Well, thank you so much for the challenge.
- [62:44]
A
I can give his contact information later if you.
- [62:46]
B
Awesome. Yeah, I'll, I'll send you an email.
- [62:48]
A
Okay.
- [62:48]
B
Thank you so much. So I want to thank you so much for spending just over an hour with us today. So how do we find Jack R in the future if we're looking you up? People resonate with your message today. How can we find you? Do you lecture across the country? How do we contact you?
- [63:04]
A
Yeah, so the easiest thing is, okay, my name, my email address is easy to remember because it's just my first name.my last name@gmail.com. so Jack, you know, it's not John, but it's Jack J, A C K dot Rives and it's spelled like dives or wives. Rives R. I v e s@gmail.com jack.rives gmail.com I encourage your your colleagues, anyone who would like to engage with me. If they prefer to have a conversation, we can set up a time. I'm glad to to speak to anyone who hears your podcast. I'm glad to address any questions or concerns. Anything they would like to talk about I'd be delighted to talk about. So just reach out to me and we can skip either we can go back and forth on email or we can schedule a time for a call.
- [63:54]
B
So I just want to say thank you so much for for your time today and your willingness to continue conversations with others before we close. Lasting Leadership Thoughts to the listeners yeah.
- [64:05]
A
I would say there are three critical things that I frequently are told people through the years when I talk to him about issues like what we're talking about today. Berlin and there are three critical things that any leader needs to do. First, always do your best. Second, always do what is right. And finally, always treat everyone with dignity and respect.
- [64:37]
B
Perfect way to close. Thanks everyone for tuning in today to the kitchen table. We truly hope that you found this time valuable and we hope we've inspired you to take action, to lead and to spread the leadership conversation. Till next time, be safe, be intentional, stay curious.