Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table

Episode 65: Chris Tubbs, Fire Chief - Delivering Public Value
Release Date: March 4, 2025
Host: Berlin Maza
Guest: Chief Chris Tubbs, Fire Chief of Southern Marin Fire District

Introduction

In Episode 65 of Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table, host Berlin Maza welcomes Chief Chris Tubbs, the Fire Chief of Southern Marin Fire District. With over 40 years of experience in the fire service, Chief Tubbs shares his extensive insights on delivering public value within a tribalistic culture. The conversation delves into the intersection of public value and organizational culture, the four Cs of leadership, and the pivotal moments that shaped his illustrious career.

Defining Public Value

Chief Tubbs begins by exploring the concept of public value. He recounts a pivotal conversation with a city manager who advised against using emotional appeals ("burning baby" arguments) when advocating for resources. Instead, Tubbs emphasizes the importance of presenting metrics that demonstrate how the fire service adds value to the community.

Chief Chris Tubbs [05:07]: "You cannot use an emotional argument. You need to start using metrics, right? You need to make an argument for how you're going to add value as a result of what you're asking for."

Tubbs further defines public value as the community's perception of the fire department's role in mitigating risks, reflecting the community's tolerance for those risks. He contrasts the high-response expectations in suburban areas like Marin County with the different service levels in more rural counties, highlighting that neither is superior—it simply mirrors each community's values.

Building Community Trust and Engagement

A significant portion of the discussion centers on building trust and engaging with the community. Tubbs underscores that trust is foundational to the fire department's business model. He shares strategies such as defensible space inspections, which not only educate residents about fire safety but also foster relationships between firefighters and community members.

Chief Chris Tubbs [13:43]: "We're in that conversation. While we're informing them, we're also learning what their concerns are. And you're having this opportunity to build trust."

He highlights the importance of both formal methods, like surveys, and informal interactions, such as open houses and active communication through newsletters and social media. Tubbs shares an anecdote about how his team mandated waving at community members while on patrol—a practice initially met with skepticism but ultimately beloved by both the community and firefighters.

Chief Chris Tubbs [16:41]: "This is an organization-wide responsibility. We can all play a role. Even the simplest act of driving down the street and waving at people."

The Four Cs of Leadership

Chief Tubbs introduces his leadership framework based on the Four Cs: Character, Credibility, Curiosity, and Courage. He elaborates on each:

1. Character

Character is the bedrock of trust and service. Tubbs stresses hiring individuals with strong moral foundations to ensure empathetic and professional interactions during crises.

Chief Chris Tubbs [35:53]: "When you hire firefighters, what do I hire them for? Character. Because when it's 2 o'clock in the morning and they're going to Mr. And Mrs. Smith's house... I need to know that our firefighters are going to be empathetic."

2. Credibility

Credibility involves reliability and integrity. Tubbs explains that in high-stakes situations, firefighters must be trusted to perform their duties without hesitation.

Chief Chris Tubbs [35:54]: "Credibility at its simplest form is I get on the end of a hose line with you and you tell me you're not going to leave me in the fire."

3. Curiosity

Curiosity drives continuous learning and adaptation. Tubbs encourages leaders at all levels to remain inquisitive about their roles and the broader community to enhance service effectiveness.

Chief Chris Tubbs [37:35]: "You have to be curious about everything about your business. If you're not curious about that, you're never going to discover why."

4. Courage

Courage is essential for making difficult decisions that may not always be popular but are necessary for the organization's integrity and effectiveness.

Chief Chris Tubbs [41:02]: "Courage requires making decisions that are not popular, but they're the right decision."

Followership: The Other Side of Leadership

Tubbs emphasizes the importance of followership alongside leadership. He likens the fire service to a rowing team where every member's effort is crucial for success. Effective followership involves understanding one's role, supporting leadership decisions, and contributing to the collective mission without sabotage.

Chief Chris Tubbs [49:22]: "If you are any rower in the crew, you know that your effort directly impacts the entire team's performance."

Measuring Public Value

To ensure that efforts to add public value are effective, Tubbs discusses the necessity of metrics and evaluation. He shares the example of King County's Medic One program, which measures cardiac survivability rates using the Utstein method—a peer-reviewed medical methodology. Such metrics provide tangible evidence of the fire department's impact, aligning services with community-defined values.

Chief Chris Tubbs [68:48]: "Once we have that, then we can begin to build metrics around that. I think one of the hardest to identify, it's been a quandary in the fire service for years."

Tubbs also touches on innovative approaches like applying network theory and predictive modeling to quantify the value of fire interventions, moving beyond traditional output measures.

Pivotal Moments in Chief Tubbs' Career

Reflecting on his career, Tubbs identifies two significant pivots:

1. Embracing Academic Pursuits

Encouraged by a fellow officer, Tubbs pursued academic studies at the Harvard Kennedy School, which deepened his understanding of public value and strategic leadership. This academic journey equipped him with the tools to advocate effectively for his agency's needs.

2. Transitioning to California

Moving from Mercer Island Fire Department to Southern Marin Fire District in California was a transformative experience. Faced with new challenges and a different organizational structure, Tubbs broadened his leadership skills and built a robust professional network, eventually leading to his presidency of the California Fire Chiefs Association.

Chief Chris Tubbs [56:51]: "I was put into a situation where I was stretched and in challenge and... it was an eye-opening experience."

Recommendations for Aspiring Leaders

Chief Tubbs advises emerging leaders to:

1. Engage with Senior Leaders: Learn from those with more experience through mentorship and dialogue.
2. Be Curious: Continuously seek knowledge and remain open to new ideas.
3. Build Networks: Establish relationships beyond one's immediate organization to gain diverse perspectives.
4. Embrace Risk: Step out of comfort zones to foster personal and organizational growth.

For literature, Tubbs recommends "Leadership on the Line" by Marty Linsky, praising its exploration of leadership as an active, challenging endeavor requiring courage and adaptability.

Chief Chris Tubbs [72:26]: "Leadership is about active service, curiosity, and sacrifice. ... Leadership is dangerous. It requires courage, it requires curiosity."

Closing Thoughts

As the episode concludes, Chief Tubbs leaves listeners with a profound reflection on leadership being an ongoing journey of service and personal development. He invokes Teddy Roosevelt's "Man in the Arena" to illustrate that true leadership is demonstrated through actions and active participation rather than mere titles or positions.

Chief Chris Tubbs [76:52]: "Leadership is about active service, curiosity, and sacrifice... nobody who has not been on the battlefield has the right to criticize you."

Berlin Maza thanks Chief Tubbs for his invaluable contributions and encourages listeners to embody the principles discussed to enhance their leadership capabilities within the fire service and beyond.

Notable Quotes

• Building Relationships:
  Chief Chris Tubbs [00:01]: "The idea of building relationships in an agency isn't relegated to one or two people... It is an organization-wide responsibility."

• Public Value Proposition:
  Chief Chris Tubbs [05:07]: "What are we doing? What is our purpose, what is our mission, and what will be a result of that."

• Courage in Leadership:
  Chief Chris Tubbs [41:02]: "Leadership requires making decisions that are not popular, but they're the right decision."

Conclusion

Episode 65 offers a rich exploration of leadership within the fire service, emphasizing the critical role of public value and community trust. Chief Chris Tubbs' insights provide a roadmap for current and aspiring leaders to cultivate effective, empathetic, and courageous leadership practices. Whether you're at the entry level or in senior management, the principles discussed serve as a timeless guide to fostering a resilient and respected fire service organization.

Stay tuned for more in-depth leadership conversations at The Kitchen Table, where Berlin Maza continues to uncover the stories and strategies of leaders across diverse professions.