Ep. 66: John Payne, Assistant Chief - Individual Leadership Growth

Summary

Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table

Episode: Ep. 66: John Payne, Assistant Chief - Individual Leadership Growth
Release Date: March 10, 2025
Host: Berlin Maza

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Introduction

In Episode 66 of Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table, Captain Berlin Maza and Deputy Fire Chief Bill Mack delve deep into the topic of individual leadership growth with their distinguished guest, Assistant Chief John Payne from the Bremerton Fire Department. The episode focuses on cultivating authentic leadership qualities, embracing diversity within teams, and the importance of continuous personal and professional development.

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Guest Background

Assistant Chief John Payne brings over 27 years of experience in the fire service. His journey began after volunteering at a fire station at 19 and progressing through various ranks, including firefighter paramedic, lieutenant, captain, and battalion chief of training. Payne boasts a robust educational background with a bachelor's degree in Fire Service Administration, a master's from the Naval Postgraduate School in Homeland Security and Defense, and credentials as an NFA Executive Fire Officer (EFO) and Certified Fire Officer (CFO).

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Leadership Philosophy

Berlin Maza emphasizes the importance of authentic leadership. At the outset, he advises, “Be yourself. Don’t try to be a leader that you really respect. Be that version of you... Learn from others, but lead your way” (00:01). This philosophy underpins the entire conversation, highlighting that effective leadership stems from genuine self-expression aligned with organizational values.

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Individual Leadership Growth

John Payne shares his journey of leadership growth, noting the pivotal role of mentorship and continuous learning. He recounts his admiration for his colleague, Chief Payne, whose approach to leadership—marked by humility, intelligence, and a service mindset—inspired him to develop his own leadership style. Payne highlights the significance of creating measurable and time-sensitive training plans, which set Chief Payne apart (02:39-09:58).

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Embracing Diversity in Teams

Payne underscores the critical importance of diversity within leadership teams. He explains, “You have to have that diversity of thought, that diversity of experience, or you’re not going to be successful” (20:01). By incorporating members from various specialties and generations, teams can harness a wide range of perspectives, leading to more effective decision-making and innovation. For instance, his department’s operations committee includes representatives from different roles to evaluate new proposals comprehensively.

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Difficult Conversations

One of the standout topics is the ability to conduct difficult conversations effectively. Berlin Maza highlights Payne’s adeptness at handling such discussions with empathy and clarity. Payne elaborates on his approach: addressing issues directly but compassionately, focusing on improvement rather than blame. He states, “I care about you and I care about your career... Let’s do it and we’re going to move on from it” (43:06). This method fosters trust and encourages accountability within the team.

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Continuous Learning and Development

Payne advocates for relentless personal and professional development. He advises emerging leaders to “find something that you love, that you’re passionate about, related to our job and then start teaching classes on that” (58:32). By becoming experts in specific areas, leaders can build their credibility and create opportunities for advancement. Additionally, he stresses the value of leadership lessons in everyday experiences, encouraging leaders to extract and apply these lessons intentionally.

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Challenges and Resilience

The conversation also touches on overcoming setbacks and maintaining resilience. Payne shares his experience of being passed over for a promotion, illustrating the importance of seeking constructive feedback and realigning career goals. He advises, “You got to be in the game... pick yourself up, move on” (61:52). This resilience ensures continued growth and prevents stagnation in one’s career.

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Recommendations and Action Items

Payne offers actionable advice for listeners seeking to enhance their leadership skills:

1. Get Caught Being Awesome: Engage in activities that showcase your strengths and passions. For example, teaching classes on specialized topics can highlight your expertise and dedication (58:32).

2. Be Open to Feedback: Actively seek and incorporate feedback to improve your leadership approach. This openness fosters a culture of continuous improvement (61:52).

3. Embrace Diversity: Ensure your teams are diverse in thought, experience, and generational perspectives to enhance decision-making and innovation (20:01).

4. Conduct Difficult Conversations: Address issues head-on with empathy and clarity to build trust and accountability within your team (43:06).

5. Continuous Learning: Invest in both formal education and everyday experiences to continually hone your leadership skills (37:29).

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Closing Thoughts

In his final remarks, John Payne reiterates the essence of authentic leadership: “Be yourself... Learn from others, but lead your way” (71:08). He encourages leaders to understand their unique strengths, commit to their organizations, and remain adaptable to change. By fostering a culture of integrity and continuous growth, leaders can ensure sustained success and positive impact within their teams and organizations.

Berlin Maza concludes the episode by challenging leaders to invite more perspectives and philosophies into their leadership conversations, thereby enriching the collective knowledge and effectiveness of the fire service community.

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Notable Quotes

• Berlin Maza (00:01): “Be yourself. Don’t try to be a leader that you really respect. Be that version of you... Learn from others, but lead your way.”

• John Payne (20:01): “You have to have that diversity of thought, that diversity of experience, or you’re not going to be successful.”

• John Payne (43:06): “I care about you and I care about your career... Let’s do it and we’re going to move on from it.”

• John Payne (58:32): “Get caught being awesome.”

• John Payne (71:08): “Be yourself... Learn from others, but lead your way.”

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Leadership Challenge

John Payne formally challenges retired Deputy Chief Steve DeBayer of Colorado Springs Fire to join the show, praising his exceptional leadership qualities and the way he treats his team with love and respect.

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Recommended Reading

Payne shares his favorite books that have influenced his leadership approach:

1. "Start with Why" by Simon Sinek: Understanding the core motivations behind actions.
2. "The Culture Code" by Daniel Coyle: Insights into building strong organizational cultures.
3. "Leading at a Higher Level" by Ken Blanchard: Strategies for effective leadership.

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This episode serves as a comprehensive guide for emerging leaders in the fire service and beyond, emphasizing authenticity, continuous growth, and the importance of fostering inclusive and supportive team environments.

Transcript

[Berlin]

Be yourself. Don't try to be a leader that. That you really respect. Be that version of you. You know. You know what's going to be necessary for the next generation. You know what's going to be best for the people that you lead, if you know those people. So make sure you get to know those people. You're leading. You're not leading numbers, you're leading people. Get to know the people, and then you'll get to know how to lead them best. Don't deviate from what you know is best because somebody else does it differently. Be yourself. Be true to your organization's values, missions, and principles, but lead your way. Learn from others, but lead your way.

[Vince Lavity]

Apartment building.

[Berlin]

The First Responder Liaison Network is proud to present to you the Kitchen Table podcast. Join us as we explore leadership from perspectives around the globe. From firefighters to fire Chiefs, civilians to.

[Vince Lavity]

CEOs.

[Berlin]

Our conversations have one simple goal. Build more leaders.

[Vince Lavity]

Good afternoon. Today we come all the way back to the Pacific Northwest to Kitsap County. As we tune in from Bremerton Fire Department on the Kitchen Table today, it's a pleasure to welcome Assistant Chief John Payne onto the show. And the theme today is individual leadership growth, becoming the leader you're supposed to be, not the leader that someone else is. But before we get to Chief Payne, I want to welcome Captain Vince Lavity onto the show. Vince is a captain with Bremerton Fire Department. He's a leadership challenger of our guest today. Other than talking shock with our guests each episode, perhaps one of the greatest aspects and playing host of this podcast is having leaders step up and ask other leaders to humbly step up as well, to share their experiences, their stories, their messages on leadership. I personally think that it's leaders job to not only uplift others, but to ask our leaders to challenge them, to ask them to come on the shows, to share their messages, to mentor, to offer up what they know so others can learn. So we have Captain Vince Lavity onto the show. Good afternoon, Cap. How are you?

[John Payne]

I'm doing great, Berlin. How you doing, brother?

[Vince Lavity]

So you and I met a few months back, back at the promotional exam out there in Jefferson county. And we were talking shop, we're talking all kinds of stuff. We were talking about the podcast and you said you got to have John Payne on the show. So of all leaders that you could have chosen, would you mind sharing your why on Chief Payne?

[John Payne]

Well, I know that the segment is short until you have an opportunity to interview Chief Payne, but you know, for me, I kind of. In order for Me to tell you the now and the here and the why, I kind of got to go back a little bit, just a teeny bit and kind of give you. It'll kind of lead me into the why. Chief Payne got here to Bremerton Fire a couple of years before I did. And I've been here about 27 years now, you know, obviously promoting, and now I'm the medical services officer. But back in the day, he and I were just two stupid young medics, right, that came on, came onto the department. He was here a few years ahead of me and was just, I had lateraled in from another agency and he was just so welcoming, you know, I came from a little bit more, you know, started my career with LA City Fire, came up here, moved to a kind of a rural department. And then so I kind of wanted to get back to that urban environment that wasn't Seattle, that wasn't Tacoma. So I thought Bremerton was just the perfect fit. I get here and I meet this gregarious, funny, friendly, low barrier, easygoing guy who also happens to be this incredibly high speed paramedic, which was perfect for me. So, you know, you do your normal thing, your third writer for a little while and then I get the opportunity and he and I get to work on a medic unit together. And we just had this instant friendship connection. I mean it was, it was undeniable. You know, I got to meet his, you know, lovely wife and this was of course before they had, you know, a myriad of children and just had a great connection. We found out that our, our connection really kind of built through humor. And you know, obviously you, Berlin, being a firefighter, as long as you have our humor is pretty jacked up.

[Berlin]

It's pretty troubling.

[John Payne]

Pretty troubling. Whatever you want to call it, troubling macabre, gallows humor. We're all a little fucked up, right? We're all a little messy.

[Vince Lavity]

We are. So it makes us, us, I suppose, right?

[John Payne]

So, yes, he's, he's this fantastic medic to work alongside. He, he gets all the important stuff. But realistically, he was the first of my very close friends to promote having, having been on the department now a couple of years for me and he's literally looking at me through the window. What a, what a clown. He was the first of my close friends to promote. So it's, it's kind of like having your first friends. They the first one to have a baby. You're like, oh my God, you're the first one to do it, you're the first one through the door. Let me know how it goes, you know, and if it's too hot, I only need to be faster than you.

[Vince Lavity]

Right? So. Absolutely.

[John Payne]

So he tests the waters. He, of course, he's a brilliant mind, super intelligent, and so he gets promoted to lieutenant. Well, he leans into this position, you know, and I still kind of look at us as kids, you know, look at it back. Back then. We're still kind of kids. He was the first person that I ever really saw that had a difficult conversation with somebody. And it was, it was so low key. It was during rig checks. It was, you know, it's in the morning, you got music playing in the background, everybody's doing their thing, and he pulls a guy aside, completely know, off, off to the side, has this conversation about, I think it was like rig check sheets or something along those lines. Like, hey, you were here, you know, this particular day. We missed this, we missed this detail. You know, I can't have you missing this detail. And everything we do in the firehouse is typically very friendly. That was a very friendly exchange. But it was, it was very to the point, it was very concise, it was very precise. It was the first kind of like foray into a difficult conversation that I'd ever seen a boss have, you know, without beating their chest and saying, you know, I'm the boss. You do it my way or no way. And then he kind of coupled that with a learning opportunity. And so that was really kind of the first leadership piece that I'd ever seen. You know, from my, from my vantage point, he only continued to grow from there. So once he got into this leadership position, then came all the learning that went with it, right. So he started to lean into all these different classes and decided, you know, man, maybe this, maybe this NFA thing might be a good thing. Maybe these, you know, Art of Reading Smoke with the Dave Dodson series and maybe, you know, air management and some of these other pieces to just fill his bucket, fill his toolbox. And he's really the first company officer that I saw do that. And having been on from a long time ago and being fairly old now in this business, we didn't do a lot of that back then. You know, we didn't, you know, we. Our training was, was. But it really wasn't as robust as it is now. It wasn't as prescribed as it is now. It wasn't as, as measurable, it wasn't as effective. So we're just kind of throwing against the wall to See what would stick. So he was the first one that I really saw that would develop a plan, a training plan. Let's make it smart, let's make it measurable, right? And then let's make it time sensitive. You know, let's go out there and we're not going to pull hose for 45 minutes. We're going to make it a purpose. We're going to make it, you know, a scenario. Here you're pulling up to this three story building, you got a rescue on the second floor. So he was the first one that I ever saw really do that. And to be a young officer, to be put in charge of, you know, older men and women, I mean, that's, that's fairly intimidating. He didn't stop there, though. After that. He, you know, within a fairly reasonable amount of time, he'd had, you know, a little bit of time under his belt as a lieutenant, became a station captain, you know, which instead of just being in charge of a piece of apparatus, now you're in charge of, you know, an entire station, the, you know, the facility, all the maintenance, you know, supplies, you name it. Again, leaned into that position. I never really knew kind of what his end game was. I thought, my God, with, with the speed and intelligence with which this guy works, it's incredible to me. And so he kind of stayed at that station captain for a little while and I think through that had a ton of experience with new people, you know, new probationary employees. I had the opportunity again, work with him at a station on overtime and just to see how his interaction was, he had the opportunity to promote and he ended up promoting to Battalion Chief of Training. And that's where I really got to get to see and be with him day to day. By that time, I had promoted to Deputy Fire Marshal. And so here we are, both working days in the same close proximity. Get to have lunch with him, get to hang out with him. I get to pick his brain a little bit. So like I said, he's thinking on a level way different than I was. You know, he's, he's got that, both have that service mentality, but he's constantly reading, bettering himself, going to classes. To me, he was instant mentor, like, instant mentor. And, you know, yeah, it's kind of funny because, you know, he's younger than me. But I think that's the best part is our mentors, they don't have to have an age limitation. You know, you can, you could be mentored by people that are younger than you. I mean, absolutely, I got the mentor piece, I got the friend piece, but then I got this huge cheerleader. I got this encouraging, vulnerable, approachable, loving human being that, oh, yeah, happens to be very, very smart, is very accomplished. And by that time now he's, you know, he's gotten his bachelor's, he's gotten his masters, he's working towards his efo. He's just a wonderful human being. He really wants nothing but the best for the men and women that, that he. He serves. And he really does have that absolute service mindset. Absolute service mindset. And I gotta be honest with you, Berlin, I can't think of anybody I'd rather work for more. He just really is a wonderful human being and a hell of a good leader.

[Vince Lavity]

Well, thank you so much. I heard. I heard so much there. And with Chief Payne, you know, waiting in the next room to, to come onto the show, things that, that I wanted to highlight, stuff we're going to talk about. We're bringing on a leader today in Chief Payne. Someone that's concise and precise, intelligent, intentional. Someone who has the ability to have difficult conversations, someone that makes himself available, vulnerable, and has a service mindset and so much more. So I just want to say thank you so much, Cap, for, for helping us with the intro today. Thank you for the leadership. Chow lynch of Chief John Payne.

[John Payne]

Thanks, Berlin. It's so good to talk to you again, amigo.

[Vince Lavity]

Chief Payne started volunteering at a fire station near his house. At 19 years old, he got to ride tailboard on an engine for six months, and it did not take him long for him to realize that being a firefighter was he wanted to do for the rest of his working life. Chief Payne became a resident firefighter and moved into the headquarters fire station for the Poulsbo Fire Department. He got accepted into paramedic school and upon completion of that training, he was hired by the city of Bremerton fire Department in 1994. He was a firefighter paramedic for 14 years before becoming promoted to lieutenant. He served eight years as a lieutenant with two years served in the training division. He served two years as a captain and four years as a battalion chief in which he had the privilege of serving as a battalion Chief of Training. Chief Payne is currently the Assistant Chief of Bremerton Fire Department. He holds a bachelor's degree in Fire Service Administration, a master's of the Naval Postgrad School in Homeland Security and Defense. He is a graduate of the NFA EFO program, and he is a credentialed cfo. Good afternoon. Chief, how are you?

[Berlin]

I'm great. Thanks for the invitation. Happy to be here.

[Vince Lavity]

Absolutely. Thank you so much. So, before we get started here, I have to start with this. I hear your father was a fighter pilot in the Navy, did some of the flying, and him and his team were in the original Top Gun movie. Would you tell me a little bit about that?

[Berlin]

Yeah. So I grew up Navy, Brad, obviously, and moved all over the country, but we spent most of our time down in San Diego. He was a fighter pilot in the Navy. Started off with the F4 Phantom during the Vietnam era, and then most of his career is the F14 Tomcat. One of the squadrons that he was a commanding officer of was VF213 Black Lions. And that was one of the squadrons that did the majority of the flying for when they shot Top Gun. So we don't know which scenes are his, but in the. When they're in the bar and they're singing the song.

[Vince Lavity]

Yeah.

[Berlin]

In the background are a lot of the pilots from my dad's squadron doing the background. So my dad was not in that scene, but, yeah, his squadron got to do a bunch of the flying. And in fact, in the. The new Top Gun movie, they use my dad's call sign for one of the characters.

[Vince Lavity]

Which one is it?

[Berlin]

So my dad's call sign was Hondo.

[Vince Lavity]

Oh, interesting.

[Berlin]

Yeah. So, yeah, so he got. I didn't. I was still a kid. My parents got to go see the. The original showing, which was done on the base and one of the hangars with Tom Cruise and Kelly McGill. So, yeah. Yeah, it was pretty. Pretty cool experience.

[Vince Lavity]

That is very cool. Especially with Hondo being one of my favorite characters in that. In that second movie. That is. That's pretty cool.

[Berlin]

Yeah.

[Vince Lavity]

And I'm sure some of the listeners here are saying, second movie. Wait, what do you mean? There's a first one? But that's really cool. I think there wouldn't be too many that would argue that the first one was probably better than the second. Second one was phenomenal, I thought, but the first one was awesome. Well, as we talk about leadership today, as we know, leadership can be learned through an accumulation of, you know, a variety of ways. Right. Through the following of others, through observing and watching, through, you know, formal academics. Right. Trial and error, learning through mentorship and everything, and all the above included. But talk about how your own leadership style was influenced by, for example, your father and. Or being exposed to things like, you know, the military and, you know, moving around a lot and being exposed to that.

[Berlin]

Yeah, I Think a lot of my leadership, at least not my style maybe, but my approach to thinking about leadership comes from being around my dad and watching him. You know, he was, you know, he went through the Naval academy, so he get right in as an officer, and then he worked his way up. He was commanding officer of a fighter squadron, was a test pod on the F18, but then later in his career, he became the commanding officer of an aircraft carrier. And so I got to watch him lead from that military perspective, which is different from how the fire service leadership needs to be. But as he and I have talked, and I'm fortunate that he lives just about 12 miles down the road from me here, is that as I've gone over to talk to him about, hey, boy, I'm dealing with this, I'm dealing with that. We have found that there are an incredible number of similarities between the fire service issues and issues that he dealt with in the Navy. Both kind of administrative issues and then functional issues. And we talk about, I talk about struggles or trials we faced on fire scenes. And it's very similar to the same situations he was facing as a fighter pilot, where split second decisions are critical and you have to respond in the moment. You have to respond based on your, your training, where you just rely on those training instincts and you don't have the time to go through the thought process of, well, this beam is starting to sag. So if I do this, you just have to react. So while there are a lot of differences, I think there's more similarities. I think one of the big things that make us different is that nobody in the fire service started as an officer. We all had to work our way up from the grunt level. We're in the military. You have those people that have done that. But a lot of the officers came right in at the officer level and never did that ground level work, which I think is a benefit to us that unless you've forgotten, you know, we've been in the trenches and we've been out freezing cold in the wet or in the snow fighting a fire. And you know, we talk to people about that, about that shared misery and how that shared misery can really make great bonds between members. So I think there's a lot that you can take away from the military. There's a lot you could take away from any exposure you have. And that's kind of my big messaging today is you can take leadership lessons away from anything. I was blessed to have a leader of my dad's caliber as a, as an example to look at, but not to replicate, just to look at and then assess how what he did does or does not work. In my world.

[Vince Lavity]

Yes, I love that. And I know kind of the theme today that we're going to be talking about is individual leadership growth, which is awesome. I think you just kind of mentioned it there. But then also becoming the leader that you individually are supposed to be and not kind of trying to replicate what someone else is. As we talk about individual leadership growth here, Chief, we know that individual growth is important, right. For anyone at any level. Right. Not just the fire service, but in the fire service. Right. There's individual growth to be had, if you will, for firefighters, engineers, officers, chief officers. Right. Whether it be a team, a team sport, an individual. I mean, you can't teach someone something that you don't know how to do yourself. And I think that goes with the importance of what you're saying is in the fire service, we, we learn from the ground up, which is a, which is a necessity. And it, it helps us become. Be effective later in our career having. Having walked in the shoes of those that work for us and under us. So, but in terms of individual leadership growth, what, what does that, what, what does that look like in the fire service, for example, for an emerging leader? We'll.

[Berlin]

Yeah, I think part of it and part of my position is that you don't need to follow a recipe on how to become an officer. There are lots of different pathways to becoming successful. You don't need to go down one road. The path that worked for me was successful for me, but it is not the path that might work for somebody else because they are a different person with different experiences and different thoughts, and they're going to be a leader of a different generation. I have been an effective leader for my generation of people. And if I think that the way I do it is going to work for the future generation or the generation that says coming in, then I'm really blind to the situation. And it's not a slam on this younger generation that a lot of people say, because I'm sure when my generation came in, we were getting looked at as lazy or this or that because we were wearing masks or we are putting gloves on, on medical calls and so we are weak. No, that's not true at all. And this new generation is coming in and the generation behind them are going to be different. So if I try to make the people that I am trying to mentor into me. Exactly. Well, they're going to fail because this new generation is different and they know that. And they're better at bridging those differences. So for me, that individual leadership is recognizing that either as a leader, training somebody that's coming up, or as the younger person that's looking to come up, don't become the person that you are learning under. But again, like, like I did my father, take away those pearls that will work for you as a leadership and then dismiss those that don't work. You don't have to be me looking.

[Vince Lavity]

At a mentor or a leader, you know, say there's 10 qualities that they possess, if you will. There are some that are going to be more easily replicable, I guess you could say, and some that are like, you know what, that's awesome, or I don't like that. But, but, but, yeah, that's okay. You know, we can take away things that are going to work for you, adopt those, and we're all going to be able to learn from others. I like how you mentioned like the generational thing because I never really heard it in that context before. And like you had learned and had a way of, of leading around with the generation that you are with. So in terms of like team building and stuff, not just team building, but having a diversity of a team, how important is it to have people of different generations, people of different ranks? We'll say just having a diverse team on your committees, on your teams, to be able to see things at a, at a holistic level and not just everyone thinking the same level.

[Berlin]

Yeah, it's critical. You have to have that diversity of thought, that diversity of experience, or you're not going to be successful. Like we have my department, we started an operations committee a number of years ago, so whenever somebody has a new idea they want to buy, like right now, we just had a suggestion made for lithium ion battery extinguishers, special extinguishers that are specially made for lithium ion batteries. So what we do now in the operations committee is whoever finds this new tool, in this case this extinguisher, they do a quick write up to the operations committee, which I am chair of as the operations chief, and then this committee looks over this proposal and says, yeah, it's worth exploring, or it's not worth exploring. If it is, then a member of the committee works with the person that makes the recommendation. Now getting back to the original question, this committee is made up of a very set number of people. One of them is me. One of them is a company officer. One of them is a paramedic. One of them is a tech rescue specialist. One of Them is a rescue swimmer and then we have two open positions. So by doing that, where we get that diversity of experiences so that we have this well rounded tool, if I don't have a paramedic on that committee and it's a medical tool that's brought to me, where's my expert that's here to give me that inside thought? Or where's the generational change that's going to say, yeah, you know what, there's technology that's way better than that. We don't need to do this on an Excel spreadsheet. We have this. So welcoming them, welcoming everybody in those perspectives is critical or you're going to be, we're going to continue to operate in my world, which is, you know, I got hired here in 1994, so I'm even willing to stretch and say I have understanding all the way up to 2010. So that's where, that's where my sweet spot is. And so that's where I'm going to be looking at. And I don't know about all this, I don't know a lot about some of this new stuff that's out there. So getting these young individuals and getting people that have different experiences say, well actually there's a better way or I have a thought on that or I don't think that's going to go over well. The crews is critical, provided I have and the rest of people in my in positions of authority have the humility to kind of say, you're right, you're right, that's a really good thought. I haven't considered that because if you're closed off to that, then one, they're not going to talk to you anymore and then you're just floating on your own, you're going to continue to make bad decisions which is going to drive your agency deeper, deeper behind the curve. And then you're going to start seeing people leave for other departments and things like that. And then now you're in a cancerous cycle.

[Vince Lavity]

Absolutely. Well, I love how you said that with the humility. Because what I was going to say which goes along with that is the self awareness or the self reflection as well, to be able to say, you know what, I have expertise but only up to this point. And then saying, you know what, I need to bring in others because they probably see it or experience it in a vastly different light than I ever have. But it takes that first of all awareness. But it's a step further with you. So with humility to say, you know what, let's go ahead and bring in somebody else that might have. Yeah. Is that. Let me ask. Is that. Was that because. I'm not gonna say. Is that. Because obviously you're doing it now. Was that difficult early on, like, to be able to get to the point where you were like, you know what? I just. I need people in, you know, or is that just the kind of an inherent trait that you've always been, you know, welcoming? Like, I always need people around me that had different perspectives.

[Berlin]

Yeah. My initial reaction was, no, it's not difficult. But then I had to actually be honest with myself and say it probably was. But I think I learned it earlier as a paramedic, preceptor. You know, after a few years of being a paramedic, when I started to precept others, it took me a little while to realize, I don't have to make this person just like me. Like, oh, your iv. Your IV technique is wrong. You should do it this way. Well, their technique still got the line, why do I care whether they held the needle exactly like I do or not? So for the. For a little while, when I was a younger medic in training, I really wanted them to become me. And then I started to realize, no, no, it doesn't matter if it's a. If it still works, if it's effective. It doesn't matter whether they do ABC or adf. The IV worked, the tube went in, the drug got administered, the assessment was done correctly. So I started to learn that it doesn't matter how they do it, as long as it's effective and we're getting the job done. And so that got me to the point where I started to realize that. And not only that, but I ask them, so why do you do it that way? That's not the way I was taught. And then they would teach me, oh, well, they're teaching this now. And then once I got the band, like, dang, that makes sense. That makes a lot more sense in the way I learned it. So by being open to their differences, I started to learn that. Yeah, I've been out of school for 10 years now. What I learned isn't. Isn't the way anymore. There's a better way. But if I'm going to stand on my pedestal and say, you will do it this way and you will read the EKG from this to that, then I'm missing out on those opportunities. So I got that experience younger. But I've also come to realize, and it took me. So I dropped my medic cert When I became a battalion chief, I still had my paramedic through lieutenant and captain. And then my fire chief told me when I was sitting on the line or getting ready to become a bc, like, you have a choice. You can continue to hold on to your medic cert and stay a captain or you can drop it and become a bc. And that was easy because I wasn't really doing medic stuff anymore. But I realized how quickly protocols and drugs and things passed me by that I can still drop a line to do it too. But the actual, like, critical decision making, I don't have that anymore. And that goes across the board of all things. Can I run a pump? Probably. Could I do it quickly? No. Can I do it as efficiently as the guys do every day? No. So I should be deferring to them. So reaching out to people and saying, what do you think? And just yesterday, one of our lieutenants came to me with a question like, hey, should we do A or B? And it was a small thing. In fact, I'll tell you, it was pants, uniform pants. Should we get brand new pants? Because we, we contract with a company, deliver our uniforms. Should we do brand new pants for each person or should we accept very gently used, used pants? I don't care. You're the one that's going to know how they're going to be received by the crews. You know which ones are going to be more comfortable. And that's a very small thing, but it could be operational stuff. What's going to work best for you? I don't care. As long as it works best for you. Over my door I have a sign that most people can't see because it's behind them. But when I'm having conversations and it says, provide vision, allow action, my job is not to give you the actions. My job is to give you the vision and then you carry out the actions. And since you're the one that knows what probably needs to be done, as long as it meets that vision, I don't care.

[Vince Lavity]

Can you say that again? Provide vision.

[Berlin]

Allow vision. Provide vision. Allow action.

[Vince Lavity]

Allow action. I love that. I love these, these little nuggets here. This is awesome.

[Berlin]

I think you take credit for that. I stole that from somebody else. I can't remember who.

[Vince Lavity]

Well, that's. I think that's kind of one of the best things about this show. Not just this show, but leadership in general. Because I think most of the things that we either talk about here or what's written in books, what, what quotes, they're not stemmed from this conversation. They were passed along from generations, decades, millennial, if you will. But it's that continued knowledge being passed down and the reason why. You've heard the reason why. I've heard it. And it just means it's effective and it sticks. And I think that's, that's great. I love the question, and I'm going to use that. You mentioned you all you like to ask, well, what do you think? And it really stirs up the. For. For others to explain their why. Because, yes, you're right, they probably know the newest, latest, and greatest. You know, even though my way was, we'll say, quote, unquote, might have been the best way, but that might have been the best way five years ago, it's probably the ninth best way to do it now. But I wouldn't know that unless I asked them, well, why did you do that? Or what do you think?

[Berlin]

That's one of the things we tell our people when we first hire them. You know, the day when I got hired, it was, don't tell me what your old fire department did. I don't give a crap what they did. You do it our way now, and that can't be what it is. It's. We're going to teach you our way. If you know a better way, you better speak up and tell us. You're part of this department now. Don't let us look stupid. Don't let us be inefficient. If you know a better way, you tell us right now. Be respectful about it. Of course, you better tell us if there's a better way.

[Vince Lavity]

You don't hear that very often. You better tell us a better way. Right? Because oftentimes we will, you know, have people not voice up. You know, there's some times where people know a better way, but, you know, withholding that kind of information can be detrimental just because if there's a better way, more efficient way, a cheaper way, we'll say of accomplishing the same task to save money, to save time, I think it's, it's, it's to the benefit of everybody to share that information. Right? Is that a, if I can ask, is that, is that a cultural thing in your organization where people are like, yes, I will. I will open up and bring my, my, my whys and hows. Is that, you know, because that's a cultural thing, right?

[Berlin]

It's, yes, it is now, but it takes a long time. Like most things at fire service, it's taken a long time to change our culture, to that, you know, Dean Sheldon, he's a big union guy up here in the state of Washington. He worked for Bremerton for a short time. In fact, he got hired both before me and after me. I'm one of the few guys that had the same guy hired before and after me. He had a family medical. He had to leave. Then he came back. He ended up leaving my department and going up to Marysville. And he and I were partners for about a year. And he had already decided he was leaving. And he was on his last shift and he was talking to me about how absurd it is that we go through this whole process of hiring people. You know, the background checks, all the interviews and things, and then we hire them and we treat them like garbage. You know, why would you. Why would you do that? And it never clicked in my mind. I only been on the apartment about two years, maybe three years at the time. But it hit me like, you're right. Why do we treat these people that we want to have be our brothers and sisters? And we're going to call brothers and sisters and do each other, but for that first year, for some reason, 365 days at day 366, magically, we love them. But for the first year, we're going to treat them like a lesser being and harass them. And we never did, you know, like serious hardcore harassment, but we didn't treat them great. Yeah. And so for me, that kind of changed the way I started treating people. And as I kind of started moving up and there was others that felt that way, I don't want to say I made some dramatic change, but as an agency, we started feeling this. And so we started making a change that when we hire people, we're so grateful you're here. Thank you for being here and helping you. We still tease you. You're not going to be coddled. We'll still tease you, but it's a change degree of teasing. It's a. It's far more loving than teasing. There's a. There's a five to one love to tease ratio. But at the same point, we also tell them when we're first talking to them. We've looked at your resume. We know you're smart, we know you have experience. Maybe not the fire service, maybe your experience comes from construction or ship building or, you know, anything else. That all has application in our job. So share that with us. Don't come in and act like you're an idiot, because if you were an idiot, we wouldn't have hired you. Tell us what you know, share with us what you know so we can all be better. It's taken a while to get there, but I think it's a. It's a definite part of our culture here.

[Vince Lavity]

Yeah, appreciating them. Because sometimes it does take years, we'll say, for someone to open up and to share their skill set. We'll say, right, because they're playing the game, the quote unquote, the game for a year or two or three, and then five years into their career, like, well, I didn't know you knew how to do that. Or I didn't know this was your hobbies. I didn't know that was your skill set. And it's like, well, why don't we take advantage of those things earlier?

[Berlin]

And then there's the opposite side. Tell us your weaknesses. And it used to be if we found out your weakness, we were going to attack it mercilessly. If we had a guy, and I love him to death, he still works here, but he got hired just a few years after me, we were still in more of the bullying you mentality, who told us his personal space was very important to him. Well, that was a mistake because now everybody sat on the same side of the coffee table with him just to take away his personal space. Because we found out that he really needs space. Why tell us your weakness? So that we can help you get over it. We had a person that we didn't find out till the academy had a near drowning as a child and was very claustrophobic. And the first time they put on a full mask and blacked out, they had an honest to goodness panic attack. Okay, that person is able to work through it as a great firefighter now. But if we had known that ahead of time, we could have worked through that before they went to the academy and had that moment. So we were not there yet. But we also need, we need to get to the point where people can share with us their weaknesses, knowing that, that they trust us enough that we're not going to take advantage of it, but we're going to say, okay, well, let's start working on that. We can focus on that and build you up so that you can move past that weakness. If it's something that's going to hurt your career, that's the goal. Don't just tell us your strengths, tell us what your weaknesses are too, so we can make those strengths and really help you be successful.

[Vince Lavity]

Yeah, strengths and weaknesses. Because again, at the end of the day, when we hire these individuals, we are hiring them not because we knew or hoped that they know how to put on an SCBA mask without having anxiety. We probably hired them because their character. We probably hired them because of their core values. Right. And so let's, let's, let's, let's stand behind the reason we hire them and support them in their early journey and being successful at the recruit academy, on probation and so on and so forth. Continuing the conversation on being the leader that you're supposed to be. How can an emerging leader be the leader that they're supposed to be when they're still trying to build their own credibility? Right? Because if we'll say, for example, some of the mentors of some of these younger individuals, you know, have mentors in the organization that are highly credible, highly respected, and they get the sense of like, well, I want to be like that person. You know, if I'm trying to be my own self, I'm not going to have as much credibility. How can an emerging leader try to be themselves when they're still trying to build themself credibility?

[Berlin]

Yeah. I think first is understand that you are yourself. You're not changing into something different. You're just gonna, you're just gonna take on different responsibilities. But don't be me, don't be Dr. Sailors you interviewed a little while ago, a good friend of mine. But again, you can learn from them. So I think those two things go hand in hand. Building your, building your confidence, building your credentials. They go hand in hand. I think, like for myself. When I first got hired, I saw that we were missing training on ems. So we had EMS Thursdays in my department. Thursdays were dedicated to ems. We detailed the medic units. We had our EMS training. This was before we had, you know, online training and stuff. The paramedics that were teaching it hated it, hated doing the training. So the EMTs that we're supposed to be training hated it as well. It was a God awful day. And so I asked if it was okay if I could take that over. Just asked my battalion chief, hey, can, can I do next week's training? And I started doing training like I'd make Jeopardy for EMTs. I made a NASCAR game, I made a baseball game, we did a EMT Olympics. I loved teaching and I loved ems. And so putting my two passions together, I was able to build something that started earmarking me as a person that had leadership potential. And that was what my officers told me. Oh, you took this program that was building my credentials while still remaining true to myself. And then I kind of look for opportunities to do other things, small things. This is before I was a company officer. But it's doing things like that you love that help your agency, that where you build your credentials and start showing your leadership chops. Then there's the other side of the credentialing aspect of getting, you know, formal education or credentials, and that's different. It's valuable, you know, as a person that's earned those things. I don't want to say it's not. I think there's value to it, but I don't think it's the end all, be all. You've got to have the experience. You've got to earn the respect of the people in your agency and the surrounding agencies. But don't do it by being something you're not because you're not gonna be able to keep that. Keep up that facade your whole career, it will crumble and you'll lose everybody's respect.

[Vince Lavity]

Yeah.

[Berlin]

Find the things that you're passionate about in the fire service. Become the expert at those things. And that's what I tell every single one of our people when they get off. Probation is all right, your probation's done. Now find something that you want to be the go to person on ladders, rescue, whatever, so that when somebody has a problem, they say, well, I don't, I don't know how this works. You say, you know who you should talk to? You should talk to firefighter X. That guy's a wizard on this stuff. And you become that person and that's how you start building those credentials. But don't, don't try to be somebody.

[Vince Lavity]

You're not leaning on that even further. As you talked about, you know, the training, the formal, the informal, the credentialing, something that we're going to talk about is fire specific and leadership specific. Training is good, but leadership training and lessons are available every day for free. I mean, first of all, how true is that statement? But how necessary is it for leaders, emerging leaders and all leaders to continue to put themselves out there? Because there are so much things out there that we don't need to spend money to go take a class. We can be finding things every day. So talk about the importance of that.

[Berlin]

Well, how true is it? 100% true. There are leadership opportunities everywhere you turn. You know, I didn't, I didn't do it as a leadership experience gatherer when I was younger, but coaching my kids soccer and baseball teams, I look back on it and it's, it's got everything you're looking for in a leader, trying to wrangle up a bunch of 8 year olds, chasing a soccer ball around a field. You know, dealing with the parents is a lot like trying to deal with elected officials. They want their kid to be the starting pitcher, they want their kid to be this or that. And you gotta lovingly engage in why that's not happening. So that's teaching you how to work with this. The people that are above you while managing their kids, who are dealing with your subordinates below you managing schedules and rosters. It's not at all different from being a line officer or, or even my level. It's not that different. I have a person above me, the fire chief, then I have a lot of people below me and I got to please both of them. They got to better manage them. So there's things like that, there's volunteering in your community that you get these experiences again as you develop into a leader. Anything you can do to learn how to handle situations that are going to come up. And in the fire service, we know there's no situation that's not on the table. We go to everything, we see everything. So having been exposed to those different opportunities to deal with crisis, even if it's on a small level like, you know, Billy's mom forgot to pick him up after practice and what are you going to do now to legitimate crisis? Like we see at our jobs here, getting those experiences, it's all around you all the time. If you see them and then just in your everyday life you have opportunities where you, you see challenges and you see opportunities and you take them. Now, if you look at it from the right perspective, there is a leadership lesson in it that you have to extract. You can let it just roll by you, but there are leadership lessons and so many different experiences. If you look at it from the leadership perspective and say, now how, how does this situation apply to my current position or the position I want to achieve? And how could I, how could I have done that better? How could I have learned from it better? But they're, they're all around you.

[Vince Lavity]

Yeah. Just got to, just got to have an open mind like you've talked about already. But also I like how you say extract like we use the word on this show. Intentional. Right. You can't accidentally run into these leadership things. You got to be intentional about extracting, using your word, finding the lessons, ultimately learning from them and then implementing them.

[Berlin]

Right.

[Vince Lavity]

It's one thing to read a book and say I'm done with this book, but it's another thing to actually implement what you read, because otherwise it's just knowledge that's unused.

[Berlin]

Yeah, I'm going to disagree with you a little bit, though. You can accidentally run into leadership situations. You have to be intentional in pulling out the leadership after the fact. So that's when you get home. And I'm a big fan of writing. I have books all over the list. You know, almost journal books are all over the place, and I write down different experiences that happen during the day. And then it's. Then it's being the intentional part of now, did I get the leadership opportunity out of this, or can I now, in hindsight, as I review it in my head, pull the leadership lesson from this? So you can accidentally be intentional.

[Vince Lavity]

Yeah, that's perfectly said. You can accidentally.

[Berlin]

You can be intentionally accidental. Somebody. There's some twist on that, but.

[Vince Lavity]

Yeah, there is a twist on that, but I. I think you made a great point there, because, yes, accidentally we can run into opportunities, which is awesome. And then we got to be intentional also to maybe take advantage of it fully.

[Berlin]

I had one about a year ago, and I actually used it in a testing situation for motions. I was at. At home, I was in my work day off. And in Costco, I bumped into one of our city council members. So I'm shopping with my son, we're in Costco, city council member comes up me, stops me and starts talking to me about work stuff. Hey, what's going on with this? What's going on with that? You don't prepare for that. That was not a conversation I was expecting to have, especially on that day where I'm at home just getting hot dogs and all that kind of stuff. But on the drive home stuff, I assume. Okay, how did I answer that question? How should I have answered that one better? You know, maybe I should send an email to the city council to clarify this or to expand further on that. It's little things like that, you know, that. That pop up that you didn't foresee coming. That if you don't spend the time, as you say, to be intentional about the process of it, that you could completely miss the full cup of juice you could squeeze out of that orange. Where if you think about it and ponder it for a little bit, you can really get a lot of value, that if, if this happens again, this is how I'm going to respond better. This is how I'm going to respond differently.

[Vince Lavity]

Absolutely. Well, you mentioned conversations. Captain Lavity, before we start our conversation, said that you were the first one that he saw that was willing to have a difficult conversation with somebody. This is really, really early on in your guys career, he said, he said this is right when you became a lieutenant or maybe shortly before. But he mentioned difficult conversations. As we know, difficult conversations is not easy for newer officers, for emerging leaders. Right. It's in fact, it's one of the things that I, you know, would say that we all struggle with. Not that struggle is the wrong word, it's just more, you know, we all love tactics. We all love, you know, going out and pulling hose, throwing ladders. Right. One of the things that we don't get a lot of training in or spend time with is having those conversations, those difficult ones in the firehouse with our subordinates and our peers. So can you talk about the importance of a leader and having the ability to have difficult conversations?

[Berlin]

Yeah, they're not easy. No one enjoys doing them. And I'll throw a Kudo back to Vince. He's one of the best at doing them. It's amazing. Someone will walk into his office that I know he's going to have one of those hard conversations with and they walk out hugging each other. Somehow, you know, the lesson is learned, but they still are hugging. It's amazing. I'm not that good. But the importance of those conversations is critical. If I care about you and I care about your career, then I better be bold enough to say when you're going off the rails a little bit and I need to pull you in there and say, hey, Firefighter X boy, this did not go well here. This, this interaction or this, whatever it is, is not in aligned with the policies, not in align with the department, not aligned with our value, not in line with our mission. So let's talk about it, let's get into it. What were you thinking at the time? How did you get here? What situation were you seeing that made you think this was the right decision? But in the end we have to come to some sort of understanding of, well, this is what made that a poor decision. And let's look at what we could do better next time. But I think the important thing is laying down that foundation of I'm not having this conversation with you because I'm angry at you or I dislike you. If I disliked you, I'm going to use this to undermine your career by not mentioning it to you and let you continue to step on that mine over and over until it detonates in your face. I care about you enough that we're going to have this conversation because I want you to be successful. And so let's just get this out of the way. Let's do it and we're going to move on from it. I'm not going to talk about this again to you unless it comes up again. This is a one time conversation. Unless you want to talk to me more about it, we're going to knock this out. I care about you. I want you to be successful. Let's be better. What can I do to make you be better? What did I not teach you? And then let's move forward. But you got to have the conversation or you're going to have it or you're going to miss opportunity over and over and over again. That person is not going to be successful in their career. And so by, by direct line, you're not successful in your career regardless of what rank you retire at. You're not successful because you've torpedoed this person's career because you didn't want to be uncomfortable for a half an hour or an hour.

[Vince Lavity]

Let's, let's try this. How does, how does one put themselves or train up to the point where they become comfortable having difficult conversations? Right? Where they're like, you know what? Like, we will use the example of, I feel so comfortable teaching someone tactics. I feel so comfortable leading an EMS drill. How does one become so comfortable that they're like, yeah, having difficult conversations? Piece of cake. Let's go again.

[Berlin]

I, I learned this through, through, by, by doing it wrong. But it starts off in the very beginning of your career when you're talking with your partner on the medicine or you're talking to your crew on the engine that you, you can say at that moment, hey, boy, that, that cardiac arrest didn't go great. Let's, let's talk about that. And I'm a big fan, and I know not everybody is. I'm a big fan, especially at PIAs, of using names and pointing out, hey, Bob, what the hell were you doing on that hydrant? Hydrant shouldn't take 12 minutes. What was going on? Calling each other out like that. Not in a mean way, but what's going on? And then Bob to say, yeah, that thing was buried under three feet of sand. I had to dig that thing out before I get, okay, good lesson. Or we can say, yeah, I just, I forgot to grab the hydrant wrench, so I had to run back to the rig, get the hydrant wrench, run back. And so we say, you know, maybe we should just have a hydrant wrench in the bag. That'd Be great. But I think being able to, we're adults, we have a grown up job and so we should be able to take grown up criticisms. And so I think to be able to do that at the earliest phases, like, hey, Bill, when I ask you for a blood pressure, I need the whole blood pressure, not just a made up number or just the systolic. Give me the whole thing, Bob, I really need. When you can't find a pulse, tell me you can't find a pulse. Don't make it up. You have those conversations because that's going to build that reputation for you that hey, you know what, When John has this conversation with you, he's not angry at you. We're just trying to get better as a team, as a department, as an agency. And so people realize, hey, when you're going into John's office, yeah, you know, you screwed up most time when you're coming into the assistant chief's office against your will, you know, you're not initiating the contact, it's not good that, you know, you're going in to see John and you know, probably what you did, you probably know what we're going to talk about that. I'm not going to punch you in the face. I'm not going to take away your birthday. It's going to be a first. Let me understand what your thought process was. How did you get to that decision? Because maybe it's a policy issue. Yeah, maybe our policy walked you right into this trap. Maybe we haven't trained you properly and so you didn't know that this was the situation. But if we can say policy is okay, training okay, this is just a bad decision making, then let's talk about that part. Yeah, and so it won't happen again, I'm not here to ring you up, I'm here to learn. Because we might need to make the department different, might need to make our policies or rules different because you were right and the policy is wrong. But you're not going to get scolded. So I think it's building that reputation from the beginning that I care about you, I care about my crewmates, I care about my subordinates, I care about all of that. That's going to be where, where you get it. And it's not too late to, to change. If you've been a jerk about it in the beginning, it's not too late to change. So if you're a lieutenant or, or you know, that middle management officer and you've kind of been a jerk about it in the Past. It doesn't mean you're committed to that pathway. It doesn't mean you have to make a public acknowledgment of it. Hey, guys, gals, I recognize that I've kind of been a jerk in the past when it came to talking to you, and I want to do better. I recognize my shortcoming. I want to do better. So hopefully you'll see that in me. I'm still going to address issues when they come up, but I'm going to try to be better in how I interact with these. Because if you just try to change gears, they're going to think you're faking it and they're not going to buy into it or support you. You got to admit it when you're wrong and then tell them, this is my plan. I'm going to try to do ABC better. And I, then I think 90% of the time, the people will be like, all right, let's give this a shot. But you better not fail again.

[Vince Lavity]

It was what the old saying is like, you can, you can make a mistake, you can make a couple mistakes, but when you're, you're being, when you're trying to learn, you know, try not to make the same mistake over and over and over again. Right? Because failures are going to happen. We're going to make mistakes, but learn from them. But what I took away from that as well is sounds like you got to be a little, you got to be vulnerable, but you also have to be honest.

[Berlin]

So absolutely.

[Vince Lavity]

Let's, let's go here. If I were to hold your chief to one, maybe two non negotiable items, right? Let's say that, you know, as a leader, you know, in your experience, like there's one or two things where you say, you know what, for an emerging leader, for someone up and coming, for someone, have a lot of positive influence, some non negotiable things. Are these one or two things, what would they be?

[Berlin]

Well, first is easy. I think that's if you have a lack of integrity, then, then you're done. You know, it kind of goes back to what you're just saying. You have to be able to admit when you're wrong, admit when you've made mistakes. And so if you don't have any integrity, well, you're not going to do that because one, you don't, you've never made a mistake in your life and you're certainly not going to admit it, you know, so you got to have integrity. That's first and foremost. And like you said, before, when we hire people, we hire completely on who you are, what's your character, what are your moral values? We don't have a single question in our interview process that asks about your experience or your resume. I've already looked at your resume. I don't need you to talk to me about your resume anymore. I know what certifications you have, what skills you have. I want to know who you are. So all of our questions are honest to goodness, trying to gauge what is your character, what are your morals, you know, what are you going to stand up for and what you absolutely stand up against. Because those are important things in our department. And it's the same thing. You have to be able to admit when you make mistakes and you have to have absolute, unquestioned integrity or you're not going to be successful. In my department, and I think in the fire service in general, you have to have it. After that, it gets. It gets a little more. There's a lot to kind of blend together. But I think, as I think about what we're talking about here is the. The developing leader, the young leader. I think it's a commitment to the organization that you have to be committed to whatever your organization is in the sense that you have to be willing to give your time. And frequently it's additional time. It's time that you're not getting paid for, but it's time that you're happy to give because you love this organization, you love the members of the organization, you love the community that you serve. And so it is not a sacrifice to give that extra time. And it goes back to coaching the soccer, coaching baseball, participating in union activities, going door knocking when it's time to do ballot measures or bonds, but it's being committed to the organization to the point where you're also willing to call out when the organization is not going the way you want it to go, in an open format, not complaining at the coffee table and stirring up angst among the crews, but talking to the right people about, I'm not happy with this line. I'm not happy. The path that I think we're going down, a commitment to the organization means you'll call it out when it's going astray because you love the organization enough that you want to fix it. And you're not just going to ride this thing into the ground. You're going to right the ship. And it's having the courage to speak up and say something is wrong. That's a commitment to the organization that I think is critical for Young, developing people to be successful, to show that so that the people in the chief's positions can see that and say, yeah, that's the person. I want to take this organization behind me because we love our organizations. I've been in this department for 31 years now. I want this department to be awesome way after I'm gone. So I want it taken over by people who love it like I love it. And so that's, that's what we want to see. I want to see that you love this department, too. And then I can walk away happy that this is, this organization is going to be in good hands.

[Vince Lavity]

Yeah, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask a question here and because stepping up, giving extra time, things like that, that's. That's hard for some people to grasp.

[Berlin]

Sure.

[Vince Lavity]

Right. We talk about mental health, we talk about balance, work, life balance. We talk about, you know, going home when you've been at work for 48, sometimes 72 hours. But that's difficult for some people to put in that extra time. So I guess my question is, have you seen a very effective leader, a very influential individual, a strong mentor, will say, be effective as they can, Highly effective when. If they didn't give extra time or they were very much so, I'm here And then at 8 o'clock, I'm gone. I'll go extreme real quick. And there was a book that I was reading, it's called Winning. It has everything, it's about athletes. But they said that there is no balance when you're trying to be as great as you can. Now, it wasn't meant to be in the sense that, like, you know, your whole family and everyone in your life sacrifices and, you know, gives up everything for you. But it was about, like, if you want to be really, really good at what you do. Yeah. The balance scale is tipped in the direction of giving your extra time and hard work, because things, things that you want to accomplish. It takes sacrifice. So my question is that's difficult for people, that extra time concept. But have you. Basically everyone gives extra time at things.

[Berlin]

You know, Do I know of somebody that has been able to be really successful without doing that? No, I don't. I'm sure that that person's out there.

[Vince Lavity]

Yeah.

[Berlin]

And I'm sure that there are people that have become chiefs or battalion chiefs or things that have put in very little extra time, but I don't know if they're really as successful as they could have been if they had put in the extra time. I think that there is, there is, there does have to be the balance. And that's very important that you have that conversation with your significant other. That, hey, if we agree, not just me, if we agree that this goal of mine to become this position is important, then there is going to be a sacrifice on this. Like for me going to Naval Postgraduate School, I was. We're gone a lot. You're gone from your family a lot when you're doing that program. And my wife understood that and we had those conversations. But then it's on me when I get back to try to make up for that time as best I can. But I think there is a balance to it. I think that there's a lot of things we can do that are extra, that you have your family with. You know, we talk about mental health and I am a full supporter of the criticality of being aware of our mental health. But I think from my personal experience going down, we have a huge festival in Bremerton every year called BlackBerry Festival. And it's at the end of summer, we set up a tent down there mainly for first aid type stuff. But you go down there all day long, all you get is people coming over to you, want to take pictures of you with their kids and thanking you for your service and wanted to shake your hand. I think that does great things for your mental health because the vast majority of the calls we go on, you're being called this or that or, you know, not loved mainly. And then you go to these public events where everybody is thanking you and you're a hero and you're this and that. I think those things are filling the tank way more than they deplete the tank. So you're doing extra stuff while simultaneously helping your mental health, helping that bucket that you need to have refilled with energy sometimes. And then I think there's the other side. Like I said in the beginning, if there's not an extra something you can do that works for you, then make one. What's your passion? What do you do? Maybe what do you and your wife or your significant other like doing that you can tie back into helping the department or representing in the community. Make a pathway for yourself that crosses both bridges where you're doing the extra, but you're doing it together and you're doing something you love doing. Bring your. Get your kids involved in it. You know, we have one of our, she's a fiance of one of our guys right now. Years ago we used to do a kids stair run, you know, like we do the one in Seattle. We do one for kids here. They put on little sets of bunker gear and they run up our training tower and back down and we have a, there's hot dogs and you get to climb on the rigs. You get to spray water from a nozzle that died years ago. Well, she's passionate about kids and stuff, so she's taking this project on. She came and asked, can I start this back up again with your guys support? You betcha. So there's something that they're coming up with on their own that they're doing as a family that's going to have a lot more. So make one. If there's not one for you, make one.

[Vince Lavity]

Yes. I love that. It goes to the saying I try to live by it is when something's important to you, when something is something you aspire to accomplish or complete, you don't find the time to do it. You make the time to do it right. And so let's go to rapid fire Chief because we go into things that people could start doing today. Recommend something we talked a lot about, obviously, you know, being your own leader, not trying to aspire to be somebody else. We talked about individual leadership, growth, being vulnerable. We talked about having difficult conversations. Now if you're having a conversation with newer firefighters will say, what would you recommend they start doing today? To be able to adopt some of these, these qualities or concepts that we talked about.

[Berlin]

Get caught being awesome. That's what I tell, that's what I tell people all the time. Get caught doing good stuff. Teach a class. Find something that, like before, find something that you love, that you're passionate about, related to, to our job and then start teaching classes on that. One of the things I tell the guys that come to me, they're like, hey, I want to, I want to become a lieutenant. What should I do is like, you know what, the chief and myself, we have to get our training done too. So you put together a class on whatever subject you want and then you send out an email to your shift and then cc the chief and I, hey, I'm teaching a class next Wednesday on, on the high lift jack. Am I going to come to your class from the high lift jack? Probably not. But do I know you're now teaching a class on high lift jacks? I do. That tucks away into the back of my head like, oh, I didn't know so and so was, was interested in high lift jacks. And now next, next month I see you're teaching a class on extrication equipment. And now he's doing this. Gosh. And now we have a special operator position coming open on our rescue truck. Boy, so and so has been teaching all these classes lately, and I see his name come in as a person that's interested in that. I already got this guy's name in my head as a rescue operator because I know he's interested. He's doing these classes. So that's just one example of getting caught, doing good things, even if you're kind of steering the ship towards getting caught, you know. But I think teaching, showing your expertise in something, showing your passion about something is a great first start. It all goes back to what. What do you love? This is a long career we all have ahead of us. Well, the younger people have a long career, out of my career, short ahead of me. But make it do the things you love and you're going to be successful in them. And those things can carry you to wherever you want to go because you're willing, like you said, you're willing to put in the time to do them because you love them. It's not. You're not suffering for your art. You're having pleasure in the art. You know, you're getting accolades for it. Boy, that was an awesome class. I never knew that about the high lifts. I didn't know we could. And so you're getting those pats on the back, which motivates you to do more, which again, gets you seen by the people that are going to make those choices for promotions. Then you get that promotion, there's another big pat on the back. Now you have this wider range of responsibilities. Here's more things I'm passionate about. And it almost starts growing on itself. It's a wave that you're riding a positivity to make you successful to the point where you're on the beach at retirement with a cool, fruity drink in your hand. You're looking back and say, that was awesome. I loved every minute of my career.

[Vince Lavity]

Yeah. So putting yourself out there is key. I'm going to ask you a quick question, Chief on. On. To lean on that further. Someone that's earlier in the career, maybe, maybe a department will say an organization doesn't, you know, maybe they value. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, nor a good thing. Just sometimes it is. Sometimes they value seniority or someone else is a little more qualified than the younger person to go into a spot. But talking about, you know, people that get not. Not burned out. That's the wrong word. But Bitter, we'll say. We'll use the word bitter. Or, you know, I. I've applied for this before. I didn't get it. How important is it to stay in the game? Meaning you might put in yourself for certain spots, like you said, maybe five times. They were denied five times. And that fifth time they're like, okay, I give up. I'm not going to put in. How important is it to stay in there, not get discouraged, continue to put your name out there, because eventually those failures, quote, unquote, we'll call them, is going to lead to success.

[Berlin]

Yep. I used to run track, so in high school, I loved track. And no one ever won a race that didn't get to the starting line. No one. So it's not even possible to be successful if you pull yourself out of it. You got to be in it. You know, everybody has had disappointments in their career. You didn't get a promotion. You didn't get an appointment to some position. And it's okay to be upset. I would be disappointed if you weren't disappointed, because I meant you didn't care in the first place. But you. You got to get back on the ball. I got passed over for a promotion early in my career. For the first time, I was up for lieutenant. I did not get the spot. The person that got it, I felt was not as good as I was. So I was. I was very disappointed. That person did fine. They were a good officer. So, you know, I had a bit of a bias towards myself, but they were fine. And so I was upset for a day or two, but I was fortunate enough that I had a chief that I could go down to his office. I made an appointment and asked him, what do I need to do? Where did I come up short? And I think that's the first thing. We've had people that have come into the chief myself and asked why they didn't get promoted, but it was very. It was more accusing that you didn't promote me. Opposed. As opposed to what? Do. What can I do better Not. Why did Bill get it, not me, but what can I do to be better in my situation? I, again, I've been a paramedic for a long time. I thought I was going to become the medical services officer. That was my goal. I thought lieutenant would be a nice step before that. And so when the chief and I sat together, he said, it's pretty well known you want to be the mso. Everything you're doing with training. And I was QA guy and medical billing guy. Medical supplies. I was doing a lot of the stuff. And he said, you're never going to be the MSO in this department. Well, that's. That's a little crushing. When you have worked your whole, at this point, 12, 13 years of your career towards this one position, and the man that makes the decision says, that's never happening, that that can be difficult. But then he followed up and said, because I see you as our training officer and maybe someday as the operations chief, I think you can do more in those positions. So it was important that I understood why he was making the decisions he made. It wasn't because he didn't see potential in me. It was because he saw different potential in me. And so I needed to reorient what I was doing to prepare myself for those positions, Those positions. So I think if somebody has gotten passed over or not gotten a spot, you have the choice to be better. And you'll probably be better the rest of your career because as you get more and more bigger, you get that circle or that that cycle of woe is me, woe is me, woe is me. You're just going to get worse and worse and worse, and you're never going to get a spot. Or you can go and talk to the decision maker, assuming that that decision maker is open to you. Talk, and I think most people are nowadays, and find out, what, what do I need to do differently? What class do I need to take, what? And then we'll tell you, you know, you did great in the interview. It just. That was so and so has a little bit more training in this, but you did great. Or we'll say, you know, that was awful interview. I don't know what you were doing beforehand, but that was awful. And we'll talk to you about it. And then you do those things, at least some of them. We give you a list of, hey, you need to take these 10 classes, be great, and you get five knocked out. @ least we're seeing you move in the right direction. You heard us, you processed it, and you're working towards improving yourself. But you got to be in the game. You got to put yourself back in the chase. Mope for a day or two, but no more than that, and then pick yourself up, move on. Because you didn't get a spot doesn't mean you're not good at your. Your job. It just means in this case, somebody was a little better. Not that you weren't great. Somebody was just a little better.

[Vince Lavity]

Yeah. But also, you never know what opportunity is, is still out there for you. Maybe you didn't get this one and the next one it finds out you did get and it's better or you liked it more and you wouldn't have known because you were, you know, you spent so much time on, on the other one that we don't, we, we don't close yourself off from other opportunities, I guess is my point exactly.

[Berlin]

Yeah. Be open to it.

[Vince Lavity]

So Vince Laity mentioned that you have a bigger bookshelf than he does. He mentioned that, that you're fond of reading and he pointed to his background. He said, yeah, this is nothing compared to the chiefs here. As we talk about, you know, continued development, there's so much free stuff out there. There's so much reading to be done, studying and learning. What are some of your favorite books and why?

[Berlin]

Well, yeah, so there's, there's leadership books and then there's books and you know, I, I usually have three books going at a time that I'm reading. I have, I have a book at work that I read, then I usually have an audio book and then I have a book at home that I read. So I usually read three books at a time. And I, I don't love leadership books. For the most part they're written for business and we are not a business. And so a lot of the stuff they tell you to do that to be a successful leader doesn't translate very well to the fire service. There again, there's always those pearls you can take out. You can twist it into how it works for the fire service. But I'm not a huge lover of leadership specific books. I love reading biographies of leaders. You know, there's a bookshelf to my right that you can't see in the camera that's got loads of biographies on different world, different leaders, not just world leaders, but leaders. I love reading those because you can take the experiences they had and they translate to the fire service very, very smoothly. And so I can say, oh, there's a, there's a trial this person faced and here's a takeaway, here's an inspiring story on how important it is to treat your people this way. So I love just reading books generally. I'm not like a sci fi type book type guy. I like real stories because I think they have real lessons in them. So I think any book you read, again, if you put it through that lens of reading it from a leadership perspective is good. But if I had to pick kind of a leadership type book, I think Simon Sinek's know your why is that what's called know your why or start with why?

[Vince Lavity]

I believe Start with why.

[Berlin]

That's it Starts with why is one of the most best books I've written to come to an understanding of kind of everything. Understanding your why takes it back to the root where it's no longer a struggle, is no longer work. It's. You're the reason. You're putting in this. The reason I went through the Naval Postgraduate School, not because I love being up all night and because I love writing painful, painful papers, but it's because I love my job. And I knew that that would be very helpful to me moving forward in my career and having a bigger influence. And so the why made it easier. I think that's a great one. The Culture Code.

[Vince Lavity]

Yeah.

[Berlin]

By Coyle is a really good one. And then I think Leading at a Higher level by Ken Blanchard would probably be like my third.

[Vince Lavity]

Okay.

[Berlin]

I think. But yeah, it starts with why. Love that. I've read that multiple times.

[Vince Lavity]

Yeah, no, that's a good one. That's one that's actually recommended to all. At least that was in my department. It's, it's, it's usually up there and in one of the promotional assessment center pre reads, if you will. And it is a great one. That one's been talked about for a while and Simon Sinek has been talked about for, for many, many.

[Berlin]

Yeah, he's, he's, he's awesome.

[Vince Lavity]

That's great. So. Well, Chief, I do want to say thank you so much for today's conversations, but what we do is we, we end the episode with a leadership challenge.

[Berlin]

Okay.

[Vince Lavity]

We're able to continue this conversation, the conversation around leadership in the fire service by asking our leaders to continue to challenge others so that we can add more perspectives and philosophies and messages. So my question is, is there someone else out there that you would like to formally challenge on this show to be a future guest?

[Berlin]

Yeah, I, you know, I've been very fortunate to be. Have gotten to spend some time going through NFA and some of the schooling to be around some pretty amazing leaders, both in the fire service and the military and business. But one of the guys that stands out in my head is just a person I really look up to and try to model as best I can is. He's retired now, but deputy chief Steve DeBayer, he worked for Colorado Springs Fire. He was, he was with me at the Naval Postgraduate School. Brilliant, smart man. But just. I don't know how his, his chest holds his heart in the Guy is so full of love and the way he treated his people. Just getting to listen to him on the phone when we were together, when he was dealing with crises there at Colorado Springs Fire. The guy is just full of love. And he just retired, I think last year. But he's still, he's a member of the National Fire Academy Board of Visitors. He's still a member of the CHDS association board. So he's still very active in our profession. Yeah, I have nothing but absolute respect for, for that guy, and I would love to hear him spend some time with you.

[Vince Lavity]

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for that. So what I'll do is I'll just, I'll gather info from you later and let Chief Debay know that he was formerly Leadership Challenge, but you pay before we officially close today. Chief, I do want to say thank you again for your time, but let's end with this. What would you like to leave our listeners with as your lasting leadership thoughts?

[Berlin]

Yeah, I think the thing I would tell them is kind of what I've already said a few times. Be yourself. Don't try to be a leader that you really respect. Be that version of you. You know what's going to be necessary for the next generation. You know what's going to be best for the people that you lead, if you know those people. So make sure you get to know those people. You're leading. You're not leading numbers, you're leading people. Get to know the people, and then you'll get to know how to lead them best. Don't deviate from what you know is best because somebody else does it differently. Be yourself. Be true to your organization's values, missions and principles, but lead your way. Learn from others, but lead your way.

[Vince Lavity]

Thank you, everyone, for tuning in today to the kitchen table. We truly hope you found this time valuable, and we hope we've inspired you to take action to lead and to spread the leadership conversation. Till next time, be safe, be intentional, stay curious.