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Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table
Ep. 67: Michael DeStefano, Deputy Chief - Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs for Firefighters
01:02:13
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- [00:01]
Chief Michael DeStefano
I like to describe leadership as that inverted pyramid. The most powerful, quote, unquote person is actually at the bottom of the pyramid. They're holding the weight of the entire department. You know, as a firefighter, I'm worried about me, and I'm worried about who else is on my crew that day. As lieutenant, I'm worried about the crew and making sure that they're safe and they're provided for. As the battalion chief, I'm worried about all of those crews in my battalion. And it just. The higher level you go, it's not actually like, oh, I'm here to be served more. No, you have so much more to serve now. Right.
- [00:43]
Host (Name not specified)
The First Responder Liaison Network is proud to present to you the Kitchen Table podcast. Join us as we explore leadership from perspectives around the globe. From firefighters to fire Chiefs, civilians to CEOs, our conversations have one simple goal. Build more leaders. Good afternoon. And today we're back in Jupiter, Florida. As we have Deputy Chief Michael Defano on the show, we're going to unpack Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs. More specifically, hierarchy of needs for firefighters to be talking culture, motivators, social morale, and I'm sure, a whole lot more. Thanks for tuning in Today to episode 67. Michael de Stephano is a Deputy chief with Jupiter Fire Rescue Department in the town of Jupiter, Florida. Chief DeStefano has been in the fire service since 2004 and has held the ranks of firefighter, paramedic, lieutenant, district chief, training chief, assistant chief of professional development, and now deputy chief of administration. He holds a doctorate degree from Liberty University in strategic leadership, and he is the host of the unbranded leadership podcast. Good afternoon, Chief. How are you?
- [02:03]
Chief Michael DeStefano
I'm fantastic. How are you doing?
- [02:05]
Host (Name not specified)
I'm doing well, thank you. So I didn't get to ask this of Steve Shaw, but I have to ask. So Jupiter, Florida, I mean, I'm up here in Seattle, so as far as we can get from each other, as far as the United States. But the only thing I know of Jupiter, Florida, is that's where all the golfers live. Tiger woods and all them. So I got to ask, is this that town?
- [02:26]
Chief Michael DeStefano
It is. So Tiger woods actually lives just north of Jupiter, Florida. He lives in an area that's like right on the border of Palm beach county and Martin County. But we have a lot of golfers Trump international golf courses there. Admirals Cove, all these.
- [02:42]
Host (Name not specified)
Got it.
- [02:43]
Chief Michael DeStefano
Wow.
- [02:43]
Host (Name not specified)
Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting. So Jupiter Ford, Jupiter Fire Rescue. And so next thing I gotta ask is October 2026. Is that the, that the day you guys start running calls?
- [02:54]
Chief Michael DeStefano
If I remember correctly, it is October 1, 2026. At midnight.
- [02:59]
Host (Name not specified)
@ midnight. Okay, so you're gonna have cruise.
- [03:01]
Chief Michael DeStefano
We're gonna have cruise on shift way before that. Training on shift. So they're gonna be ready to go and cohesive. So when, when the, when the clock turns, you know, midnight. Yeah, it'll be very seamless.
- [03:14]
Host (Name not specified)
It'll be very. Oh, I guess that makes sense. You can't just say, all right, here we are. How big? How big is it? How big is the department? How many stations? How many?
- [03:22]
Chief Michael DeStefano
So we're going to be three stations. Of the three stations, we're going to have an engine and a rescue at each station as well as one station have a battalion chief and one will have an additional ladder truck there.
- [03:33]
Host (Name not specified)
Got it. So, Assistant chief of professional development, I want to start there because I'm curious as to what you oversaw or what your responsibilities were. Was it leadership development? Was it mentorship, was it promotions? What was it? I'm curious.
- [03:49]
Chief Michael DeStefano
So basically professional development. I oversaw the HR portion of the fire department. I oversaw the training division, the health and safety of it. And then we also did like the recruitment, retention as well as professional standards. And the position used to be called Assistant Chief Professional Standards.
- [04:07]
Host (Name not specified)
Okay.
- [04:08]
Chief Michael DeStefano
When more things got added to it, they kind of made it more of. I guess we would call it a happier name than professional standards where it sounds like ia, you know.
- [04:17]
Host (Name not specified)
Sure, sure, sure. Professional. Okay, Professional development. So do you guys do leadership academies within. Did you do stuff like that?
- [04:24]
Chief Michael DeStefano
So short answer is yes, but it wasn't necessarily to the level that I wanted to see it at. As I was on my way out from that department. We had just implemented what was called our leadership academy and it was meant for fire office and it was for. Primarily for lieutenants, which we didn't have captains, we only had lieutenants were on our, on our rescues, our engines and our truck companies. The leadership academy was basically going through and we would teach a tactics portion of it. We would teach a soft skills portion as far as leadership and handling, you know, employees and everything like that. And then we would do a lot of actual hands on training. So the way it worked is you would go into a classroom, basically you would learn about like a building construction for a certain type, let's call it residential. You would learn residential building. You would go into our blue card simulator and you would go through running the calls as like command in the simulator. Then we would go out to an actual residence which was the ones that you just had pictures of that you were using. Like, oh, okay, now I get to put, you know, eyes on it, do the actual 360. And then we would go to our burn building and we would basically light it on fire. So we would go and run the entire simulation that you just ran in the sim lab. But now it was real life, real time to make sure that everything was. Was smooth, that transition, you know, I love that. And then, like I said, we did have the leadership portions of it as well, which is the soft skills. Yeah, there's a. There's an administrative portion to it, and they ran two classes of that before I ended up leaving. And I believe, hopefully they're still doing it there.
- [06:00]
Host (Name not specified)
Yes, yes. Was it only for, like, newer lieutenants? Like, you had a class of, like, of new promotions, a bunch of lieutenants, and then they went through that academy. Is that how that worked or.
- [06:09]
Chief Michael DeStefano
So that's how they did it. At first, the idea was to expand it to where everybody's gonna be able to go through it as well as potential candidates. Anybody who wanted to test for lieutenant would have the ability to go through it. And the way we were setting it up was to kind of make it so that if we could get it to the level that that would be a prerequisite of even testing, is that you would go through this academy. Like in Florida, we have something called Fire Officer 1, which is just state curriculum in order to get certified. And, you know, very, very basic. And the classes, it's a crapshoot. You know, you could take them online, you could do them in person. What you're actually getting out of it, who knows? So we wanted to make sure we had something that. That filled the gap between what you got in the classroom versus what you were actually going to need in the field.
- [06:54]
Host (Name not specified)
That's awesome. So tactical operational stuff, human resource or administrative type stuff, and then employee conflict type stuff. I mean, that's. There you go. I would say, because we see it all the time, right? We see we're heavy, and it's not wrong. We're heavy on the tactical stuff. You say, hey, we're going to do some administrative tasks and, you know, learning about, you know, the new computer network and this, and, you know, the room's empty. But we need that stuff too. Right? We need that stuff too. We need the employee conflict type stuff. And so I love that. Okay, so the theme today that we're talking is Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and specifically for firefighters. And I actually listened to your Your podcast, the Unbranded Leadership, and you did in a segment specifically on this. So for those that want to hear more about it, please tune into the Unbranded Leadership by Chief Michael Stefano, because he talks about this, plus more. But let's, let's. I want to start with how did this come about in your we'll say studies, if you will. Like the fact that you're here talking about the Maslow's hierarchy and the pyramid. Was this probably not something that you leaned on or was taught yourself when you're in the academy, but there was some point where you were taught it. Now you're like, okay, yeah, this is something that we need to understand both in this industry, but both also as developing people. So I'm curious on where this came about in your journey.
- [08:16]
Chief Michael DeStefano
So, weirdly enough, I mean, I think a lot of things are learned out of necessity. So I was doing. I did my master's degree in public administration in 2015 through, I think, like 2017. And at the time, I was in the training division as a training lieutenant. And while I was doing this, I ended up having a. A guy that was with me that was a training lieutenant and was kind of, for lack of better terms, motivating him to get into the union side of things and to really seek the E board. And while we were doing this, some class had came up and they had mentioned Maslow's hierarchy. And I started looking into it, and I'm like, oh, wow, this is really good. We could utilize this for negotiations, for doing our labor negotiations. Kind of looked into it, learned a lot about it. It was great. Fast forward to when I was doing my dissertation for my doctorate degree. And I ended up utilizing Maslow's hierarchy of needs theory as one of the theories to compare everything that I had, the research that I had obtained, and the dissertation was on the motivations and challenges that leaders face in motivating firefighters. So it kind of. It lined up perfectly. You know, I used Maslow's as well as the social exchange theory, but social exchange theory only. Only kind of fits about this much, whereas Maslow's was just across the board, everything matched up. So that's kind of how that started to transpire and. And utilize that as the. The primary. The dissertation there.
- [09:51]
Host (Name not specified)
So going with the Maslows as we have it pulled up here, do you mind diving a little bit into that pyramid and then just basically starting at the bottom level so we can kind of understand. Because the reason why I'm so intrigued, not just intrigued on the Maslows because I'd heard about it, you know, a few years ago, but we don't implement it. We'll say, right, so like, for example, we'll use the recruit academy. We'll even use things like company officer training. Do we keep these things in our minds when we're saying, you know, is this person struggling or why is this person not able to engage? Are they not able to really digest this information? And are we even considering, you know, this pyramid? We'll say, absolutely.
- [10:31]
Chief Michael DeStefano
So, so Maslow Sar kidneys. For those who haven't seen it before, it's, it's basically five different levels and Dr. Basil used it as a pyramid in which each layer builds off of the next layer. So like you said, if you don't have the physiological needs section met as far as the, the needs of the employee or the person, the rest of the, the pyramid doesn't matter because you haven't built off that base. You don't have that foundation. So the first one that's on there is the physiological needs, like you mentioned, and that is literally the needs that we need to survive. I usually call it my survival level. It talks about air, talks about water, food, shelter, sleep, things like that. Right. Those are things that we absolutely have to have met. So when we apply that to the firefighter, that's basically what I, what I utilized it or what I compared it to is like pay. It's, it's our compensation. If I can't afford to put a roof over my head, if I can't afford to put food on my table and I can't afford to have a place to sleep, then nothing else matters. I could be the most gung ho firefighter on the planet. I could be the most motivated person that there is. But that's not going to be my number one focus. My number one focus is going to be meeting my survival needs. And until that's met, everything else is just nice to have.
- [11:46]
Host (Name not specified)
Right. But as we go to the next piece, I think safety is the next piece of the, the, the pyramid. What, what safety is that talking about? Like literal safety, physical safety.
- [11:57]
Chief Michael DeStefano
So it's talking about the safety needs of the actual employee themselves. And, and so I had a couple conversations after I, after I, I posted that, that podcast on Maslow's hierarchy and a couple of people had reached out and they're like, hey, Mike, you put in their sleep as far as your safety needs, but you didn't put in that should have been in the, the survival one. I said, you know, I thought about This a lot and I researched it a lot and I feel like the sleep falls better in the safety needs in the aspect of what we're talking about in the fire service. So in the fire service you're going to get enough sleep to survive. So I took it out of the survival portion, but that doesn't mean I'm going to get enough sleep to maintain a positive thought. Life is. I'm not going to be clear enough or focused enough to actually run calls. So when I was talking about safety needs for the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, we're talking about things like physical fitness, we're talking about things like the, the sleep, the schedule, having that, that work, life balance and most importantly those mental health aspects. That's, that's all the things that, you know, think about your, your health and safety committee at your job.
- [13:04]
Host (Name not specified)
Yes.
- [13:04]
Chief Michael DeStefano
That's everything that you guys talk about in that that's going to fall into our safety needs to make sure that we remain healthy.
- [13:10]
Host (Name not specified)
When it's safety. Does it also, would you say that would also include, you know, I'm sure you've heard psychological safety, you know, individuals that come to work and feel like that they have voice, that feel like they can contribute, they feel like they're appreciated, they feel like that their ideas even matter. Does that also apply into this? Because we know, you know, we can have individuals that just show up, do the job and go home at 8 o'clock the next morning. But are we bringing enough out of people that they feel like they can come forward, forward. And if not, and they don't feel like they don't have voice, they don't want to pursue other, then they're not going to make it above this second level on this pyramid. Do you think, do you believe that that's also included when we talk about safety, that psychological.
- [13:50]
Chief Michael DeStefano
Yes and no. So, so the psychological safety aspect and kind of what you're talking about here of almost like an empowerment and a feeling of belonging. Almost that's, that's a little bit higher in the levels.
- [14:02]
Host (Name not specified)
Okay.
- [14:03]
Chief Michael DeStefano
There is an aspect of safety of being able to voice concern. Yes. And being able to be heard on that aspect. So I think if we break it into kind of two different sections there one is as a level of, you know, I have a voice to make change within an organization. I'm respected in that organization, I have that recognition versus being able to voice those safety concerns to be able to get by.
- [14:28]
Host (Name not specified)
Got it.
- [14:28]
Chief Michael DeStefano
The safety concern aspect 100% falls into that second level.
- [14:32]
Host (Name not specified)
Well, what's the third level.
- [14:34]
Chief Michael DeStefano
So the third level is our. It's. It's called love and belonging. And this is, this is one that, that really popped out during my dissertation, my research studies is it's basically the, the level and the sense of connection that you get from your team, your crew. And I, I relate this one basically directly to camaraderie. And it's funny because while I was doing the research, I heard over and over and over again that one of the biggest motivators of firefighters was camaraderie. They wanted to have that feeling of belonging within their crew, acceptance within their crew. And that real, that family dynamic, which is something that I'm a big proponent of trying to help create in fire service, is a family dynamic rather than a work dynamic. We live together for 24 hours at a time. We literally are each other's keeper. We have to have that type of connection.
- [15:31]
Host (Name not specified)
Okay, well, let's, let's go into the second one because I do want to come back to that piece because as we talk about, you know, the first layer, if you don't have the first, you're not going to be able to have the individual make it up this chain here. So let's go to the second and then the top. And then I'm going to come backwards and talk a little bit about what you're talking about with camaraderie because I do believe, and I kind of want to see your thought when we get there is the top of the pyramid is where we want every employee, obviously, but that's not every employee. Realistically, I don't even know if we're even close in a lot of our organizations. So let's go through 2 and 1 and talk about where we think many of us are in our agencies. But then talking more specifically on improvement, how do we get people to get up there? So what's the second from the top on the pyramid?
- [16:15]
Chief Michael DeStefano
So the second top is our esteem level. And we kind of, this is what we were kind of just talking about with the, the having a voice aspect of it. It's, it's your self esteem, it's your recognition, it's the respect that you gain. I like to relate this back to our, like our senior firefighters, you know, they have a level of respect among their crew and when they say something, it's valued. When they, when they bring something up, people want to hear it, they want to implement it, they want to talk about it. It's not just cast off and cast away. And going back to that third level of the family dynamic aspect. You can be a part of a family, but you can still be that black sheep in the family that nobody respects. Oh, that's just Johnny over there. Don't listen to that guy. So getting to this next level, this esteem level, is when you start to actually feel empowered. And that's a huge, huge aspect of the growth chart that occurs here.
- [17:09]
Host (Name not specified)
And then the very, very top, very.
- [17:11]
Chief Michael DeStefano
Top is our self actualization. This is our, our personal desire to basically be the best version of ourself. This is when you would start to see that person that's now like, okay, I've been empowered. Now it's time for me to empower others. This is what we see as our leadership level. When we hit. This is where you kind of fall into that position of leadership, regardless of rank, regardless of seniority. That's our leadership level.
- [17:36]
Host (Name not specified)
Got it. So I'll ask the question because we hope and thrive and wish that everybody was at the very, very top of this pyramid of the five levels. Where do you think many of firefighters are? Like, I know you'll have many that are probably, I'll just say, not in the very bottom, but maybe the levels three and four from the bottom. You do have some at the very, very top, but would it be fair to say that many lie somewhere in the middle?
- [18:02]
Chief Michael DeStefano
Ish. Yeah. I think, like you just said, so if we, if we go from one, from five, one to five and one being the top, the, the leadership level, I would say most of our firefighters are landing in the level two and three area.
- [18:15]
Host (Name not specified)
Yeah.
- [18:15]
Chief Michael DeStefano
I really, really pray and hope that we're not in the 4 and 5 area because those, those are ones that are struggling.
- [18:21]
Host (Name not specified)
Yeah.
- [18:22]
Chief Michael DeStefano
That are very, very temporary. They're going to be there for a few more months and they're on their way out. But the 3 and 4 level, or I'm sorry, the 2 and 3 level are the ones that are actually growing. They're the ones that, you know, we look at like the 60, 20, 20 rule. Right. You got 20% of the people that are gung ho, they're superb, they love the job. You got 20% that absolutely hate the job no matter what happens. And you got the 60% in the middle. Those are the ones we got to focus on because they're the ones that we can turn and make them into the top 20% rather than letting them slide back. So that second and third level are the ones where we need to focus a lot of our attention on and help build them up.
- [19:00]
Host (Name not specified)
Where does imposter syndrome play a role in any of this if it does. But you'll hear sometimes people say, well, you know, no, I'm not ready for that, or, hey, you're our next lieutenant, or you're our next chief. Like, oh, no, no, no, that's not, that's not me. You know, at what point are. Does imposter syndrome hold us back from getting to that self actualization or basically climbing more of this pyramid? If, if at all? If you kind of follow a little bit of what I'm saying.
- [19:24]
Chief Michael DeStefano
Yeah. So actually I had a great conversation with a, a brand new fire officer in a department that just got promoted, and he was asking for some help with it, and he's like, hey, what are your thoughts on my first shift? I've got this, you know, I got two salty firefighters. They're. They're gung ho. They don't really want to do anything with the, with the department, and they're just, they, they're good at their job, but they stick to themselves kind of deal. And I've also got two brand new firefighters who are really, really, really, like, into the job and they want to learn. He's like, how do I bridge this gap? He goes, but I feel like there's a level of imposter syndrome. And I think one of the things that we see a lot with the Maslow's hierarchy of needs is that it's not a permanent fixture. So once I hit self actualization, I don't remain at self actualization. And a lot of times when we promote into the next rank, we actually knock ourselves back down to about that of, okay, now we're in this new position. We're in a new role within the family. Right. How do we build ourselves back up? We don't have the respect of everybody yet in this new position. I don't have the connection, the belonging yet in this new position. So it's almost like a roller coaster periodization where we have this wave periodization going. So a lot of times our imposter syndrome guys fall into it, especially when they initially promote. They fall back from a level of, of self actualization into that belonging level where they're going, okay, I was great. I had tons of respect as a firefighter. Everyone, you know, they listened to me. They valued me as a firefighter. Well, now I'm a fire officer. I have to regain that respect as an officer not only among just the firefighters, but among the other officers, you know?
- [21:05]
Host (Name not specified)
Absolutely. So I listened to one of your most recent podcast, Chief, and in that you talked about the positive mindset. And I love talking about the mindset, love talking about positivity. But in there you mentioned, you know, there will be times throughout a long career, for example, where an individual might find themselves, say at the top of the Maslow's hierarchy, at the top of that pyramid and everything's great. You know, they show up to work, everything's going well, there's so much autonomy and they're just, you know, life is great. But then there'll be times where something happens. You know, you get moved assignments, move shifts, you get a new crew, you get bumped to another division, whatever it may be. And that individual may find themselves bumped down, we'll say that hierarchy, they find themselves not at that self actual actualization, but recognizing that although you get bumped down Maslow's pyramid, the importance of climbing back up, striving to always get back up to the top of that pyramid, to that self actualization of high performance and things like that. Can you talk about how critical it is to have that positive mindset that you talk about in being an effective leader and just always striving to get back to the top, however or whatever that looks like for that particular individual.
- [22:20]
Chief Michael DeStefano
So it's funny you actually brought this up. I have an article that'll be released later this month from Firefighter Nation called the Negativity Virus. And it talks about like contagion theory, which is basically your attitude is contagious and those around you are going to be impacted by it. The more positive somebody is, the less impacted they will be by negative attitudes. However, it still plays a role, it still takes that hit, you know what I mean? So one of the things that you had mentioned there was, was going and trying to continue to go back up the pyramid every single time. And I think positivity is a major factor in that because it kind of has that motivation for the person as well as the motivation for everybody around them. You know, how am I going to get to that level of respect and recognition if I'm always negative? You know, and one of the funny things is too, because we see this a lot. You have the guy who's a firefighter, he's a, he becomes a salty firefighter, senior firefighter, like you said. He maybe he gets passed up for promotion or something and he becomes a super negative guy. He's disgruntled, he hates, you know, everything about the department. And then there's always this, I don't say, I said always, but there's usually a catalyst at some point where he goes you know what, man? I screwed up. I shouldn't be negative. I'm a. I'm going to change my Life, do the 180. And then he gets promoted, and it's like, oh, man, what. What a great testament of. Of positivity. And he. He turned his career around. That's fantastic. But then the question is, is that what you want to live your career on? Do you now want to be negative at the next rank and they have to turn it around again and then negative, you know? Or do you sit there and you say, okay, that positivity is going to help bridge the gap between those different ranks and those different levels of Maslow's hierarchy. And that's really what it does. Positive. Like, you know as well as I do the person who's happy and positive, I want to be around that person. That's the person I want on my crew. Even if they're not as good as another firefighter, if that other firefighter is negative, I don't care. I don't want them in my crew because I know he's going to bring everybody else down.
- [24:26]
Host (Name not specified)
Yeah.
- [24:27]
Chief Michael DeStefano
So that, as you have that positivity, that's really how you build into that belonging and get to that. That esteem level.
- [24:34]
Host (Name not specified)
Well, as we all know, I mean, negativity, it works, right? I mean, it's. The research shows, which I'm sure, you know, that negativity is so much easier to cling onto. It's so much. It sticks way more effectively, and I think it's a good thing, but it sticks faster than positivity. And so, yeah, I mean, it is hard sometimes to stay positive. But just also know, as leaders, if you are negative, it's probably working more effectively because it's so, so contagious. Let's talk about the micro and the macro culture. When, as we. As we continue to talk about needs for firefighters, as we continue to talk, you know, moving up the chain to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, of, you know, trying to build ourselves up and build up our crews and those around us talk about the micro and macro culture and how that kind of plays a role in a lot of this.
- [25:21]
Chief Michael DeStefano
Man, that was the absolute perfect lead in for micro and macro culture is talking about the negativity and how easy it is to be negative. Right. So during the research that I was doing, I had reached out to a bunch of firefighters as well as lieutenants, and we started talking about the morale of the organization with the department that they were at, and every single one of them other than A handful. I think there was like two or three came back and said that the morale at their station was phenomenal. I said, it's great. We love to bjork together, we love to train together. You know, we run a ton of calls. We get our butt kicked, but we're so happy to be there. We love it. And I said, oh, wow, this is. This is fantastic. What's the morale of the department? Oh, the morale department's terrible. It's for. It's horrendous. Everybody hates being there. And I'm like, okay. And then I ask another one from different station, same department, different station. They tell me the same thing and I ask another. And it kept on going down the line. And different stations, everybody's station had greatest morale. But everyone said the department was terrible. And I was like, wait a minute, guys. If everybody has this, everything's good at your station, then why is the department itself so terrible? And this is where we started creating the micro versus macro culture. The micro culture was things like the belonging aspect, things like the self esteem aspect within our crew, our family that we had in there. You know, there's a. There's an old saying that we utilize all the time and we tell all of our. Our new fire officers is control your bubble. All you can control is your bubble. If you make your bubble good, everything is good. Don't worry about the big bubble. And this was that same factor of it. The department aspect of it was seen as negative because there was lack of communication from upper administration. The pay wasn't good, the benefits and time off wasn't good. There was a lot of mandated overtime, different things that are completely outside the control of the micro culture. So I was like, okay, this, this makes some sense here. What was really funny, though, is when I took these same firefighters and put them into focus groups together and I asked them almost the same questions, and immediately it came back that the crew's culture and the department's culture was terrible. And I was like, wait a minute, you guys just told me that the crew is fantastic. You said that everything was good. But now that I put you with other firefighters who weren't on their crews, the first thing they talked about was how negative everything is. And this goes back to exactly what you were saying. It's so much easier to be negative. And I want to say that I don't. I don't have the research to back this up. This is only just an opinion on my part. But I want to say a lot of it comes down to our society when we look at what we see on tv, on social media, everybody has a negative voice. Everybody hates the world and everything like that. So people assume. Assume that, oh, I just met this person. They must want to talk about something negative. So I'm going to bring up negativity to join in and fit along and to fit in that group and belong to that group. Meanwhile, if they brought up positivity, it probably would have been a positive conversation.
- [28:23]
Host (Name not specified)
First of all, two things. Number one, obviously, the control factor. Yes, obviously, if the organization is in a state of. For morale, we'll say it like, we're not in a. In the business to try to affect the morale of 400 people. Right. I'm in the business affecting the morale at my station. At crew level, I think everyone should understand that it is easier to talk about what's going on. That's bad. How do we. How do we flip that?
- [28:49]
Chief Michael DeStefano
I mean, I recently did a. Actually, I think this is on the. The Positive Mindset podcast that you had listened to the, the thing. But I. I taught a sermon at my church about four months ago, three months ago, something like that. And I opened it up with this study that's a Harvard study. Actually, I don't remember if it's Harvard or not. Is in, like, 1973. It's a study basically on the ability of your mind to recall information. And it says that if you open it up and you start with something positive, that your mind will be able to remember it better and recall it better versus something negative. So the example is if I'm going into school and I, you know, have. I have this great attitude as I go into school, everything's good. I'm so excited to be here. Whatever I learn, my mindset is going to want to recall that because it's good. Now if I go in there and I get a flat tire and all I'm thinking about is how life sucks and I don't want to be here and my class is terrible. Then whatever I learn, my mind's going to bury it somewhere in my brain where I don't ever recall it because I don't want to have that negative status. So for the sermon, I told everybody, okay, before we even begin. And I use this a lot for my. For my classes and stuff. In fact, some of the leadership classes that I was telling you about, we would start off with basically, get a pen and a paper out. I want you to write down three things that you're grateful for. Doesn't matter what it is. You're not Going to have to tell it to anybody. It's just. I want you to think about it and write it down. And that little. That small little factor resets your mind to think of things that are good in your life and resets everything. So now the information that we talk about during that class or during that meeting or during that sermon, the people are that much more likely to actually recall that information. So it goes back to that, though, that negative stuff we try to push out of our mind. But it's so easy to fall right into that trap of negative everything.
- [30:40]
Host (Name not specified)
Totally.
- [30:40]
Chief Michael DeStefano
And just one more aspect, too, of the research is that, remember I told you a handful of them didn't talk about how great the culture was at their station? That handful all had one thing in common. They were all floaters. So they weren't assigned to a specific crew. So they were like the outsiders going into the crew. So I don't have information on. This is something that I have to further study to prove it and to actually have causation with it. But I would imagine, as the outsider coming in, since they're not part of that crew again, what do you think the first thing was that they talked about at the table? Probably something negative. Oh, did you see Chief? So. And so did this. Oh, I can't believe this. This place is terrible. Oh, look how crappy our truck is today, you know?
- [31:21]
Host (Name not specified)
Yeah.
- [31:22]
Chief Michael DeStefano
And just. They immediately assume that, well, if this station's doing it, and then the next station I'm assigned to is doing it in the next station, the whole entire department must suck. This place must be terrible.
- [31:32]
Host (Name not specified)
I did hear this. This was actually. It was on your positive mindset podcast. Because everything you just said about it sticking, like walking into a class with a positive mindset, it goes to remember hearing this. It was from you. But it also goes to what we say is always have an open mind. Like, if you go into a class with a closed mindset, you're probably not going to learn that much. If you go in there and pretend you really have no idea on the subject matter, even if you do have. Even if you're an expert at the topic at hand of a class you're going into, if you act like you don't know anything, you're probably going to take away more from it. Versus, here's this person going to teach me about a bunch of stuff that I already know. You're already looking for something that is negative. We'll say, but I like the grateful piece that you said. I was in a class recently and they talked about being grateful, and it talked about the rewiring of your brain. If you go into a day or if you go into a class, you go into a seminar, you go into something and you're all. And you open it up with being grateful for something. Even if, even if the week is going terrible, even if this class of three days had sucked and now you're going on day four. If you walk in being grateful for just being there to have the opportunity to learn or whatever, you're rewiring your brain to try and take away something positive from it versus just like, ah, all right, I'm just wasting my time again. Well, yeah, if you walk into it wasting your time and thinking that it's going to be a waste of time, yeah, you will.
- [32:48]
Chief Michael DeStefano
You willed it to happen, basically.
- [32:49]
Host (Name not specified)
Yeah, exactly. It's, it's, it's. You're making, you're telling the future. You're more likely of having the future about to take place. How about intrinsic versus extrinsic motivators? Where does that fit into all of this?
- [33:01]
Chief Michael DeStefano
So. So our intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, and we kind of look at this especially with Maslow's hierarchy. A lot of the extrinsic motivation, which would be things like pay time off actual, like medical benefits, things like that, those would all fall under, like, our survival and our security needs. So a lot of the extrinsic would be in the bottom two levels of Maslow's. The intrinsic motivation and the desire to internally do better would be in the top three categories typically. But there's still a level of it that even branches into the bottom two, because that's what motivates someone to even get into the business, into the industry. Without exception of every single person that I interviewed, they all responded with the same reason for getting to the fire surface. There was a bunch of them that had other reasons on top of it, but every one of them said the same thing, which I'm sure you've heard a million times too, when it comes to, like, interviews and stuff. I want to help people. That is an intrinsic motivation. They have a desire to help people, desire to make things better, a desire to fix the problems that the world calls 911 for. But beyond that, there's also a lot of intrinsic motivations for every aspect of our growth. You look at a lieutenant, someone who's promoting the fire officer. Why are they promoting a fire officer? You have either the extrinsic value of they want more money, it's a raise, right? They have. Or they have the intrinsic value of, I want to lead people, I want to make people's lives better, I want to empower people. I want to create that positive environment for the crews, whatever it may be. So there's both levels of that that can occur at different amounts. But I think that as firefighters and as anybody who's in public service, I think we. In fact, I know, because I've read the studies, it shows that we do have a much higher level of intrinsic motivation. As someone who's a public servant.
- [34:58]
Host (Name not specified)
Here's a question for you, chief. As a chief, are you thinking of the Maslow's hierarchy of needs in terms of when you are writing policy at the negotiation table, you know, setting best practice, whatever it may be? Right. Like, are you thinking about, okay, we need to make sure those in this organization, the firefighters and from the ground up, we are assisting and helping make sure that their physiological needs are met. And then also, are we making sure that they're, for example, like, making sure that they, you know, are bargaining for right wages and we are not necessarily just fighting for them and paying the least as possible. But are you assisting and making sure, you know what? Yeah, these do need. You know, they do need fair pay, days off, more vacation, more sickly, whatever, and then moving up as well. Like, safety needs. Like, are we. Where. How. How much is this in your thought process? Right, we talk about safety. Are we getting, you know, good fire engines, good EMS equipment, good safety, ppe? Right, because this all goes to safety. Like, how much is this in your thought processes as a chief? And shouldn't we all be thinking about that at all levels?
- [36:02]
Chief Michael DeStefano
Oh, absolutely. We 100 should all be thinking about all levels. And I'll tell you right now that it is. It is always at the forefront of my mind. So I like when we describe leadership and. And it's almost cliche at this point, but I like to describe leadership as that inverted pyramid. The most powerful, quote, unquote person is actually at the bottom of the pyramid. They're holding the weight of the entire department. You know, as a firefighter, I'm worried about me, and I'm worried about who else is on my crew that day. As lieutenant, I'm worried about the crew and making sure that they're safe and they're provided for. As the battalion chief, I'm worried about all of those crews in my battalion. And it just. The higher level you go, it's not actually like, oh, I'm here to be served more. No, you have so much more to serve now. Right. You, you mentioned something that I absolutely love and you said about the physiological needs and about the pay, especially when it comes to negotiations. I'm telling. I've had so many of these conversations because the guy that I was talking to you about that back in 2015 that I was trying to, to nudge into the right direction for, for union. He's actually the union president now for that department. He's been the union president for like six years now. Phenomenal job of it too, because his heart's in the right place and his motivations are in the right place. But one of the things we used to talk about all the time was a fire chief and a union president who work together instead of being adversarial can take over the world. They can get so many things done on each avenue that it's just, it's amazing to see what can happen with it. But the question I always have in watching adversarial contract negotiations versus good contract negotiations is why, why are they adversarial? Why are they trying to go after the, the firefighter, the union, and saying, well, let's try to get them to work for as cheap as possible. That doesn't help out the department, that doesn't help out the citizens. That doesn't help anybody out. I want those firefighters to be the best taken care of that they can be. I want them to have enough money where they're happy, they're able to survive, but also at the same time provide the best bang for the buck for the taxpayer. But you know what the taxpayer doesn't think about? They don't think about the extra two to three dollars a year in their taxes to make the firefighter happy. They think about that firefighter when they show up on that call and go, wow, this guy's really jam up. He knows what he's doing, he has a great attitude and he's going the extra mile and providing a wow experience. For me, they're never thinking about the two to $3. You know, that's this much in their mind going back to that. I think that that's, that's the forefront of all of it. When we come to policies, when it comes to procedures and when it comes to the. We create. Like I said before, when I was professional development, I still had that, that not so fun side of professional standards. I was in charge of doing all of the investigations. You know, we would go through the investigation process, we would suggest what the discipline would be, and then it be up to the fire chief to, to, to actually Execute the, the, the discipline.
- [39:05]
Host (Name not specified)
Yeah.
- [39:05]
Chief Michael DeStefano
And the question was always, why are we providing discipline? The discipline is only there to curb a behavior. So is there other ways that I can meet Maslow's hierarchy of needs and help that firefighter to be better without just throwing down paperwork on them? And if that's the case, let's do that. That's the much better option of helping build that sense of belonging. Helping build that, hey, this guy is helping me out, helping build that esteem factor of saying, hey, this guy respects me. Even though he's a chief and I screwed up, he still respects me enough and knows that I am capable of being a good firefighter. I just need that right direction.
- [39:42]
Host (Name not specified)
Absolutely. Is your where you're at now in Jupiter? Are you deputy chief of a professional development?
- [39:49]
Chief Michael DeStefano
So it's of admin.
- [39:52]
Host (Name not specified)
That's right. I did read that. Yeah.
- [39:53]
Chief Michael DeStefano
Yeah. We don't have the robust system right now, you know, with only three stations. The other department I used to work for was 34 stations.
- [40:03]
Host (Name not specified)
Yeah, massively. So how much? If I can ask how much? Because obviously I'm going to imagine that, you know, that it's important for leaders development. I know you mentioned social, sorry, soft skills earlier. We talk about that on this show a lot. We talk about the need for individuals to have those soft skills in a strong leader. Right. And a new company officer, even a senior firefighter, obviously a chief level. But how are you going to. What's Jupiter going to do in terms of making sure that that's, again, not missed? We'll say. Right. Because I'm going to go ahead and assume that there's going to be heavy in, you know, in tactics, it's going to be heavy in firefighter fundamentals. And obviously. Right. Every fire department should and must, let's say in 2025, we're recognizing more, I believe. Not to say that it wasn't important 20 years ago. There was just less of a recognition. But there's a recognition now that we do need to put money and training behind our upcoming leaders to make sure that they do have the soft skills to be able to lead effectively. So even though you don't have professional. Deputy chief of Professional development. I'm imagine that's still at the forefront of building up your leaders at Jupiter.
- [41:06]
Chief Michael DeStefano
Oh, absolutely. And so here's the most I can. I've talked about this till I'm like blue in the face. The coolest thing that we get to do with Jupiter is because we're starting a fire department from the ground up. I literally have the ability to hire not only firefighters that we would normally we would promote as we go. I'm hiring every single rank along the way. Battalion chiefs, captains, lieutenants, drivers. So a lot of the problems that we see in an established organization is, you know, I hold a promotion test for captain and I get five people that get on the list. And of those five people, two are jam up. They're fantastic guys. They need to be in that position. The other three are eh, they passed the test but you know, I don't know. Or worse yet, they passed the written but they sucked at everything else. But that written test was what we were basing everything off of. So when I go to promote now all of a sudden I have four positions opened up. What am I going to do? Well, the two jam up guys are going to get it, but now my two eh guys are also going to get it. So you'd have to put so much effort and time into those two guys to bring them up to the leader you want them to be. We get to hire the jam up guys from the start. So that is being able to look at that and say, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna fit the people who actually fit the organization, who fit that role, who fit that model that we were looking for. Man, we're in such good shape.
- [42:32]
Host (Name not specified)
It is, yeah, I remember T shot talk about the exact thing and obviously it's a, it's very unique, right? I mean obviously to start a fire department from the ground up and choose the leaders of all ranks is obviously, it goes without saying, it's a unique opportunity and exciting. Let's go on the hypothetical now. So you hire your organization and somewhere along the way, let's just use the Maslows for example, you find out, you know, at some point, two years into Jupiter's opening, you have some individuals that no longer are having their safety needs met or physiological needs. They have to move to a different state. And now their commute is not what they thought, whatever it may be. There's going to be individuals that were hired for everything, their, their capabilities and potential, but they aren't any longer for whatever reason. Obviously having that curriculum, that, that training, that, that process of making sure it's going to be, there's going to be something that needs to be in place, right? Like we don't all get the number one draft pick in the NFL draft, right? Some of us get no first round draft pick, but you still have to develop the second and third rounder because you didn't have a first round pick that year. So how does that look like at Jupiter moving forward? I mean, obviously there's going to be entrenched mentorship. I'm sure you're going to support members to go out and take classes just like all other departments do. Is Jupyter going to do anything unique, do you think?
- [43:46]
Chief Michael DeStefano
Or we like to say at Jupiter, since it's such a novel department of what we're doing, we're going to do a bunch of novel things to get us to where we need to be along the way. So if it's kind of unique and it's new, like let's try it. Because the worst thing we can do is hey, we messed up, we just won't do that again, you know, no big deal. So doing that moving forward, we're looking at having the same type of thing that we had before. We're going to have a, a leadership academy obviously and getting everybody lined up and on the correct. You know, everybody has experiences from wherever they came from. We're going to be hiring a lot of experienced people into these positions. We're not hiring the brand new guy for a captain, you know what I'm saying?
- [44:29]
Host (Name not specified)
Yeah.
- [44:30]
Chief Michael DeStefano
So empowering them to utilize those experiences while aligning them on the Jupiter way is going to be what's key. And when I say the Jupiter way, it's going to be aligning that culture. So one of the things that I'm a big, big fan of and I'm a big proponent of is if we do like you had said before, the basics, making sure everybody knows the basics of firefighting and the basic skills. Let's teach the basics of leadership. Let's teach the basics of just day to day customer service type things. And, and one of those factors is this thing that I call the, the how can I help you? Culture of from day one, it's how can I help you? When you answer the phone at the station, hey, firefighter Smith, how can I help you? When you get on a call, hey, you called 911, how can I help you? And getting that mantra into your mind of how can I help you? So that way when anything occurs, the first thing you're going to think of as your reaction is how can I help you? And that's going to really become part of that culture that transpires through all the ranks as people move into the newer ranks. That's going to be that mindset that they have and that's going to open up that, that idea for empowerment as well as the idea for whatever I can do to provide you service. Whatever I do provide you customer service. So going back to your hypothetical firefighter, that now their security needs aren't met, their physiological needs aren't met, Whatever it may be, maybe someone on that crew goes, hey, how can I help you? Would you want to stay the night over at my house before shift? Can. Can we get together and I can help you out with like a side job? What can we do to support you? Because everyone's thinking of not only how can I help the customer that we call 9:1, but also how can I help our crew members?
- [46:11]
Host (Name not specified)
I love. I wrote that down. I highlighted that. The how can I help you culture. I mean, that's. That's so basic, but that is so. I never, I've never even heard that. It's not that I don't hear people say that they want to help people. We hear that all the time. But the how can I help you culture? I mean, that just says everything right there. Let me just add. That's the Jupiter thing. That's going to be.
- [46:28]
Chief Michael DeStefano
This is. This is just my mind.
- [46:30]
Host (Name not specified)
This is just. Okay, got it. I love that.
- [46:32]
Chief Michael DeStefano
But having so. So one of the things that that Jupiter does have, though, is we are very pro wow culture. Of, of every experience that people have should be a wow culture from the day. So, like when I got hired on, I walked into my office and there was a big poster up that said, you know, welcome to the team, Michael. And the whole office was set up for me already. And I'm like, wow. And that's exactly what they're looking for, for everything. Wow culture. So whenever you run a call, they want the person to experience wow. When we talk about something in public that want the people to look at it and say wow. You know, that, that's the culture that, that we're really pushing at at Jupiter is that wow culture. How can I help you? The how can I help you culture. That's something that I. I actually got from my daughter because she works for. I'm sure you guys have heard of it, it's well known. Chick Fil A. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And she, she became a manager there. And on her way. She's 18 years old and she's a manager.
- [47:32]
Host (Name not specified)
Wow.
- [47:32]
Chief Michael DeStefano
And they're very, very big on promoting youth and, and bringing them up the ranks and teaching them leadership. And she came home, she's like, daddy, I have to read this book and I have to do this and this and this and this is the homework to become an assistant. And I looked at it And I'm like, oh, let me read the book. I'm like, oh, Bella, the stuff that you're learning, the stuff that they're teaching you, this is like, this is high level leadership stuff. But their whole thing was my pleasure. You know, it became. It's a mantra that every time, my pleasure, it's my pleasure. You know, and that's.
- [48:06]
Host (Name not specified)
I love it.
- [48:07]
Chief Michael DeStefano
She says it all the time at home now because of it. But utilizing that mantra, and that's literally the reply. And they actually think about it. And I was like, wow, that's really good. So I started looking into this, well, what could we use at the fire service? And that's where that whole how can I help you?
- [48:21]
Host (Name not specified)
Think, how can I help you? Culture. And that's. That's the default, right? You said your daughter's doing that at home because it's so you default to, oh, it's my pleasure to help you. Oh, it's my pleasure to get this for you. It's my pleasure to take your order. I mean, if, if the default is how could I help you? I mean, you're, you're. That's talking about customer service at its finest right there. That's. All right, let's move this forward. Chief, we are action item time talking to firefighters, new ones, and you were to give them a. Some kind of a tip, right? Newer, Newer in their career. Give us something that you would tell new firefighters.
- [48:53]
Chief Michael DeStefano
So for new firefighters, it's just keep on learning. Never stop learning. You know, this job is. Is one of those jobs that's always growing, it's always expanding. Technology is always changing. The people that we run on are always changing. Our target hazards are always changing. Just make sure that you're continuously learning your craft, whether it be college level classes, whether it be going to conferences like we were talking about earlier, or just training with your crew and with surrounding crews. One of the things that I'm a big fan of is training outside of your department. I think it's a detriment to us when we have what I call inbred training, where you train with just your crew, just your department non stop. And whatever has been taught for the last 50 years continues to be taught. And all you do is become a vessel of repeating the exact same thing. You know what I'm saying?
- [49:49]
Host (Name not specified)
I do.
- [49:49]
Chief Michael DeStefano
So going to those conferences and talking to people like we're doing right now across the country and seeing those different experiences is huge. To bring that in and to grow everything and making sure that those firefighters know that and Also making sure that they're not restricted from that. I know organizations that won't allow people to go to conferences because they. No, no, we do it the. We do it the city of blah, blah, blah way. Nobody else. We do it better than everybody else anyway. And it's. Do you.
- [50:18]
Host (Name not specified)
Yeah, that's.
- [50:19]
Chief Michael DeStefano
That's dangerous, you know, so absolutely. Continue. Continue learning, continue striving to be a student of, of being of the fire service and then continue to empower others. And that goes back to that. How can I help you? You're always helping out your brother and sister.
- [50:37]
Host (Name not specified)
Love it. How about emerging leaders, let's say new company officers, maybe aspiring someone that's in a new. We'll say in a, In a new leadership role. What would you say to them to continue to grow and propel their career?
- [50:50]
Chief Michael DeStefano
Be humble. I mean, that's as simple as that. Be humble. You may. You got here for a reason. You were promoted for a reason. Obviously you showed something and hopefully it was better than just a high score on a written test. But remember that you are not the best and that you need everyone else's help. This is a team sport. One of the things, and we had just talked about this earlier, one of the things that can really, really help you out in building bridges is asking those questions, even if you know the answer, hey, you know what? I got a. I'm a brand new fire officer and on B shift, I've got a guy who's been a fire officer for 20 years. You know what? Let me ask him. Hey, I got this situation. What do you think I should do? Or what would you do on it? Even if you already have it solved in your head, that bridge that you just created by reaching out and showing that humility of maybe I can learn something from this guy, will create a lifelong partnership with that person that now they will go above and beyond to help you out when things do get tough. Versus the. I know what I'm doing. Look at, look at what's on my collar. I don't need your guys's help, you know, so be humble in everything you do.
- [51:58]
Host (Name not specified)
Absolutely. I love that piece. All right. More generally speaking now, how can firefighters, how can leaders, how can all of us in the fire service be better at adopting the philosophy of Maslow's hierarchy?
- [52:11]
Chief Michael DeStefano
I think you nailed it earlier. It's just keeping it in the forefront of your mind. And everything that you do, whether it's policy, procedures, negotiations, training, everything that we do, I, I truly believe that we can look at Maslows and We can basically write a strategic plan for improving and developing our crews just from using those different levels and, and looking at training. Training is another aspect of it. So when you come out to the drill yard to do a training scenario, are my physiological needs met? Do I have water for them? Do I have a place that's cool? Do we have shelter for them out of the heat? Great security needs? Is everything safe? Are we looking at a safe environment for them to train at? Belonging? Am I creating a, a place where everybody is going to work together and they're not going to be isolated into silos or adversarial against each other esteem? Am I recognizing those guys who do have a lot of information to give? Or am I playing the role of, of a, you know, single person that stands up in the classroom, just talks at everybody, or am I engaging them and bringing out them and saying, hey, what do you think? Think you have more information, you have more knowledge in this than I do. What do you think? And then the self actualization of okay, we're going to go ahead and make it to the point of let's see how we can do. Little Johnny, you're sitting on the lieutenant's list. Let's make you the captain for the, the officer for this scenario and help that out.
- [53:34]
Host (Name not specified)
You know, have Maslows at the forefront, even have a, I'm a very visual guy and not gonna lie if, if I don't have it there in front of me, if I'm not looking at it, if I'm not reminded, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna have it, I'm not gonna be utilizing it. So basically having it at the forefront, however that looks for individuals, don't forget about it, if you will. Your favorite book, Chief leadership based or anything based, your favorite reading, I take it you're, you know, you might be into reading, developing and learning.
- [54:02]
Chief Michael DeStefano
Yeah, definitely. I read a lot of books. I think I've been sitting around 40 to 50 a year for the past like three years and the majority of them are leadership books. But I will say that in my opinion, the number one leadership book is the Bible. I went to Liberty University for my, my doctorate degree and they are an evangelical and Christian university. So we had to use a lot of biblical integration for literally every single thing that we did. And you know, I had, I had read the Bible before when I was a kid and I actually fell out of faith. So getting back into faith was, was big for me within the last six years or so. And when I started at the University about two and a half years ago. I was like, okay, well we'll see how this works of putting biblical integration into it. And man, the stories that you're reading in the Bible, the different warnings that are in there, the ways to lead someone, the ways not to lead someone, what happens when you lead someone poorly. The entire book just opened up itself as a giant leadership book to me. And I'm like, what I'm reading, this is amazing. You know, I mean, I mean we look at, we look at Jesus in, in the New Testament and it literally says that he came not to be served, but to serve others. And that is the premise of servant leadership, you know?
- [55:20]
Host (Name not specified)
Yes.
- [55:21]
Chief Michael DeStefano
So, so definitely a big fan of utilizing scripture as, as my leadership go to.
- [55:27]
Host (Name not specified)
I love that because you're totally right. And all the, the stories in there, there's leadership to be taken from every single story. David and Goliath, I mean, you name it, right? There's just so many. And I love that that's, that was, that was different than what we've had in the past. And that's what this is all about. The name of the show, Chief at the kitchen Table. Can't let you go without you sharing one of your fondest kitchen table stories in your career.
- [55:51]
Chief Michael DeStefano
So every good story starts with so there I was. So there I was. I was a, I was a firefighter at Station 41, which is in Merritt Island, Florida. And it was a busier house. We had a lot of low income area and we had an absolute ridiculous amount of nursing homes. So when I was on the rescue, it was busy, busy, busy. And then our other unit we had, there was a truck company. So I'm at truck, I'm at Station 41 as a firefighter, paramedic. And I had tested twice to be a lieutenant and I failed both times. The first one, I failed the written exam by like one point and didn't move on. The second one I ended up failing the, the assessment center. And I was like, man, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? So I'm talking to the lieutenant, we're at his dinner time, of course, and, and I was like, you know, this crew is just so good. It's so tight, the crew that we have. And I'm like, I don't really want to leave anymore. I don't think I'm going to test for the third one. And my lieutenant, Joey Mata, who's easily one of the biggest mentors that I've had as far as positive leadership goes, he goes, mike, look at this crew. He goes, this is a great crew, but it's not going to last. He's like, someone's going to promote out. Someone's going to leave. Someone's going to go and take a job somewhere else. Someone's going to retire. He goes, it's not going to stay the same. He's like, you need to get comfortable being uncomfortable. You need to leave as a promotion and leave as an officer and go create the same exact environment at whatever station you go to. And then even as higher up, when you move into those higher level positions as chief, create the environment there. And that's how we change the entire fire service. And I was like, all right, Joey, you're right.
- [57:40]
Host (Name not specified)
Wow.
- [57:40]
Chief Michael DeStefano
And that, that's really something that's propelled me in my entire career is okay. My whole life, my whole goal in life is to make whatever my bubble is, Station 41 a shift.
- [57:51]
Host (Name not specified)
I love it.
- [57:51]
Chief Michael DeStefano
If I can do that, life is good.
- [57:54]
Host (Name not specified)
Wow. I, I love that piece. I mean, the way you said that, right? Like, so many of us don't move in our career. We don't promote, we don't move stations, we don't move shifts because of exactly what you said. They love their crew. They love, you know, the, the, the autonomy that they have because they've been there so long. They know the area, everything's easy. But create that environment elsewhere. I love that. Just whatever you're feeling right now, go. Go create that. At a struggling fire station, go create that and bring that positivity over there. Because that's. It's like one of my friends, Eric Rossoff, said out of California, he said, culture change happens one person and one crew at a time. And if you have such a positive environment, but you keep it there, you're only affecting that. But how about you bring that there and there and there, and that's how you change that macro culture. So I love that. Create that environment on another shift or another station. Thank you, Chief. Leadership challenge. We're here today because Chief Shaw kindly challenged you. You got to reach out to Chief DiStefano because he would be an awesome addition. We can only continue this conversation on leadership by asking our guests to reach out to someone else. So is there someone else out there that you would believe would add to the leadership conversation?
- [59:09]
Chief Michael DeStefano
So there is. And, and I'm, I'm excited to, to challenge him because I don't know that he's done any podcasts before. And I don't know, honestly, I haven't even talked to him about to See if he'd be interested in it. But I think I can nudge him in the right direction. But he was a captain for Cocoa beach, and he just got promoted to deputy chief of operations. His name is Steve Lee, and I worked with him briefly at my old department before he went over to Cocoa beach. And then while I was on a rescue there, he was the captain while on for the fireside, while I was on a rescue as a lieutenant there. And he has this really unique ability to relate everything about leadership back to sports. He's a huge sports guy. Big into baseball, coaches, baseball and everything. I used to see him at the fields all the time and everything he does, though. So I, I, I had the, I had this really cool opportunity to help grade some of the captain's exam tests that when they were going through the promotional process as one of the assessors, and he related the entire thing back to coaching baseball and how to, to lead a team when he was trying to promote the captain. And I'm like, wow, such a. So, like, everything clicked, and I was like, oh, this guy's going to be good. And sure enough, he's been a phenomenal fire officer, and I cannot wait to see what he does to that organization as ops.
- [60:33]
Host (Name not specified)
That is awesome. So he's a. Cocoa beach is the name of his new organization.
- [60:37]
Chief Michael DeStefano
Cocoa Beach Fire Department.
- [60:39]
Host (Name not specified)
Where is Cocoa Beach?
- [60:40]
Chief Michael DeStefano
Cocoa beach is just below, you know, where Cape Canaveral is, where they launch the rockets and everything. It's in Brevard county in Central Florida.
- [60:48]
Host (Name not specified)
Central Florida. Okay, so central Florida.
- [60:50]
Chief Michael DeStefano
Got it. Yeah, yeah. It's just south of where Kennedy Space center is.
- [60:53]
Host (Name not specified)
Got it. Well, I love sports and sports. It's funny because a lot of these episodes, I always joke and say, yeah, all right, there's the next analogy. Next metaphors from sports. And if you don't like sports, you might as well shut off the podcast now. So I'm gonna. Well, thank you so much. We'll reach out to Deputy Chief Steve Lee. Is it Steve Lee?
- [61:10]
Chief Michael DeStefano
Yes, sir.
- [61:10]
Host (Name not specified)
And see if he'd be willing to take up Chief DiStefano's leadership challenge. Well, I want to say thank you very much, Chief, for spending the last hour with us today. I don't want to let you leave until I give credit. So you have a, A article coming at the end of the month that's called the Negativity virus. Is that what it is?
- [61:26]
Chief Michael DeStefano
Correct. Yeah.
- [61:27]
Host (Name not specified)
Where do we, where do we find that?
- [61:28]
Chief Michael DeStefano
It'll be, It'll be posted on firefighternation.com firefighternation.com all right.
- [61:33]
Host (Name not specified)
And then also check out the Chief's podcast, Unbranded Leadership. I know it's on Spotify because that's where I found it, but I assume it's also gonna be on Apple Podcasts and other.
- [61:42]
Chief Michael DeStefano
Yes, on YouTube as well. And there's also a website for it as well that has all the stuff, which is unbrandedleadership.com awesome.
- [61:49]
Host (Name not specified)
Well, thank you for sharing that. So, before we officially close Chief, what are your lasting leadership thoughts you'd like to leave our listeners with?
- [61:56]
Chief Michael DeStefano
Stay positive and keep pushing forward.
- [61:59]
Host (Name not specified)
Thanks everyone, for tuning in today to the kitchen table. We truly hope you found this time valuable, and we hope we've inspired you to take action, to lead, and to spread the leadership conversation. Until next time, be safe, be intentional, and stay curious.