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Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table
Ep. 72: John Lovato Jr, Battalion Chief - Chase your Experience
01:21:05
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- [00:02]
A
This profession is a marathon, not a sprint. Take your time, don't worry about your title. Just be. Do a good job in the position you're in and that'll set you on a good pace. And just seek out experience you want. Don't wait for it. Go to trainings, go to classes, seek out your mentors. Otherwise you're just going to get the default setting that your department has or that's around you. But I think we confuse. I don't see a lot, but I do see it where people think, well, to be accomplished in life, I need to have this title. To be accomplished in life, you need to be a good person. The First Responder Liaison Network is proud to present to you the Kitchen Table podcast. Join us as we explore leadership from perspectives around the globe. From firefighters to fire chiefs, civilians to CEOs, work for residential. Our conversations have one simple goal. Build more leaders.
- [01:14]
B
Good morning and welcome to the Kitchen Table. Today we tune into the city of Fort Myers in Florida as we have Battalion Chief John Lovato Jr. On the show and today's theme is being true to yourself. We're also going to talk about training, mentorship, being curious, being a good teammate, professional development, and so much more. Thanks for tuning in Today to episode 72. Italian Chief John Lovato Jr. Has been serving the city of Fort Myers in Florida since 2003, rising through the ranks. Over the years, he took a deep interest in his training, practice and the concept of a cohesive team or crew. With that dedication, he founded a brotherhood, coaching and an initiative and website full of resources for firefighters. Its mission is to help leaders stay engaged, overcome frustrations, grow their influence, and become the leader their people need. Chief Lovato is the author of the book Fix youx Firehouse 7 strategies that produce a Winning Team. He is also the creator of the brotherhood coaching show Fix your Firehouse Academy, as well as the Squad House, all in which are programs and resources designed to help firefighters grow, make positive change, overcome adversity, grow their influence, and so much more. Good morning, Chief. Thanks for being a guest today on the kitchen table. How are you?
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A
Hey, good morning. I'm doing great.
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B
Looking in your backdrop there and looks like it's a beautiful day out there in the morning. Yes, we are.
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A
Oh, freshwater canal back here. So. Wow.
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B
Just saw that too. Wow. Right on the river.
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A
Break off and start fishing. You know, why.
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B
Feel free, right? I mean, that's awesome. Well, you are the leadership challenge of Chief D.J. stone, who was a guest on the show a few months back. Would you mind sharing a little bit about John Lovato Jr. Before we go?
- [03:01]
A
Listen, I'm, I'm just a guy that wanted to do stuff a little bit differently than what I've seen, I guess so. I'm married with two kids. I still like going to fires. I do enjoy my off days more. But I think a lot of the stuff that made me want to do stuff different was I grew up in the suburbs of Chicago in the fire service up there. My grandfather's a fireman, my father's a fireman, and so I started there, but then we used to vacation down here and I got hired down this way. So I already had from a different region. This is all in the U.S. but listen, every place, it's, it's, it's big, it's a big country. So I saw stuff different and came down here. There's some stuff that I like that we did way better down here, but there's some stuff I picked up there. And, you know, I was fortunate to become friends with some guys in this county teaching at the local fire academy. And, you know, they were going to conferences and stuff like that. So that kind of, you know, I started going, chasing my own development and got to learn from people throughout the country, different conferences, classes, and went, man, I kind of like what they're doing and started instituting it as much as I could where I was. So as an engineer, I just started trying to adopt the mentality of a senior man, and that kind of shaped my career as we went forward with it. But, you know, I got hobbies outside the fire service. You know, it's a, it's a great profession. But I, I tell guys, hey, don't have it. Be your identity, have a hobby outside of it, because end of the day, you got to hang up your hat one day. And I think we struggle in this profession with that. So don't identify yourself complete with it, and you'll have less frustrations too, because, listen, T shirts, change truck colors, change staffing names, whatever, just do a good job in the position that you're at and treat people right. And I think that's what's most important.
- [04:57]
B
Two things that already, two things that really just hit home. You said, you, you said chase my own development, and you said, do stuff a little differently. So. But I do want to start off with this quote. It's from your brotherhood coaching. We don't sit around and wait for experience, and we don't rely on our department for professional development. So let's start there because I Know, the theme that we're going to talk about is staying true to yourself. And you just talked about. You chased your own development.
- [05:22]
A
I guess it's just really easy to sit around and make excuses. You know, my department doesn't have good training. We don't have this. And we come become a victim in our own mind, and we create these walls that don't exist. There's opportunities. You got to go get it. Like, well, we don't have a gym at the station. You don't need a gym. You can go work out outside on your own time. You can work out there, whatever. It's just. I do it, too. At times you make excuses, and it's just like, no, I think I just got tired of it. Like, hey, there's opportunities. You know, I always wanted a little better training. You know, I came from. You know, my department trains way better now. Like, it's more structured, and there's a. There's a plan for it. But back before, it was more on the job because the guys that I was learning under used to go to two, three fires a day. So for them, they're like, yeah, you just go to them, they're like, hey, we're not doing that anymore. I think it can be more organized. So, you know, I got around the right people and started going to these conferences and going, wow, I like this. This is a better way. And, you know, that kind of shaped my career because education is one thing, learning it, but you got to implement it. You know, because once you implement it now, you have experience of it. You know, too often we think, well, I took this class, so then I'm good. No, you got to actually implement it and do it. It's like, hey, I got this great workout plan, but I don't follow it. Got it. You got to put it into play. And saying that I. We said something about being different. Like, just because it's different doesn't mean it's good. It's just. It's different.
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B
Right.
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A
So make sure it's actually producing results. Like, focus on the results of something. Like, it's. How is this going to be better? Okay, then maybe we should do it, but not, oh, well, this is different. Let's just try it. Well, that doesn't always go well, because then people are changing just for sake of change.
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B
Yep.
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A
You know, test it out. So we used to do a lot of trial runs. So I'll give an example of anytime one of my guys on my crew want to try something, I said, show me. Try it. We're not going to put it on the rig until we vet it, make sure it's good. So years back I was an acting officer and pulled up to a two story apartment complex with one building almost fully involved and two other buildings as exposures that were involved. And we didn't have a long hose load on our rig and called for a second alarm right away. Just kind of paint the picture of what we had. And we had to put hose together on scene because we grabbed, we stretched our, I think our two and a half off the back and we had put our high rise pack connected to it. And I went, this is bananas because I've got three buildings on fire and we're putting together hose right now now to be, to finally make it in. Like we darkened it down from the outside. So since that I started working on a courtyard lay for our rigs and me and another captain did once we got promoted. It's like, man, we gotta, we gotta do better, right? So we had to get it approved from our admin. Hey, we want to try all this, right? Here's the secret, guys. Tell, tell the bosses we're gonna, we need to trial this as at least can start, start, start it right. So, and what we did is we used the existing hose on the truck. So we had 300ft of two and a half and 100ft of inch and three quarter because that's what we had as a dead load. We put it together, we used a reducer. We didn't use the gated Y because guys were like, oh, I got to do that. I'm like, you're gonna screw up with that. Like that's not how it's made. That's another subject. But we had it on our rig for like three years. And then we finally said, hey, is this, can we do this for the whole department now? Like, it works like it's, it's for those longer extended lays. We're not putting together hose. And we'd show up at trainings with other departments and they were still building it. We're the only crew that had it all together. Well, it's evolved now into we have 400ft of inch three quarter off the back of every engine. Time has changed. The point was, is we vetted it first, we trialed it, we put into play, we showed how it worked, like it was a process. And what's funny is I would ask guys that since they've been hired, they only see the, they saw the change over to the 400ft of inch three quarter and not the two and a half inches recorder. I go, hey, why do you think we used to have the two and a half with it? Oh, friction loss, gpm. I go, no, that's what we had. That's all we had. We used what was already on the rig because they weren't going to buy us more hose for it. Right. So I tell them that, because I said, understand the history of stuff too, you know, that, hey, this is why we used to have it. Because a lot of times, you know.
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B
Yeah.
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A
If we don't understand the history, don't know why we changed or why we used it in a different way, and then we just start repeating repeats, redo's and reruns, that's the same we have. So when we start seeing the same thing happen again, we're like, we've done this before going back and maybe it's a lack of understanding of why there was a change or maybe something dangerous we need to. But yeah, I think a lot of stuff can be, A lot of errors can be dismissed if you, if you know the history.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Of what's going on and understand why you're doing it. But you have to have a really good understanding and that's where the experience comes in.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Go out and do it.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You know, Go out and do it. Yeah. I had an engineer, he goes, hey, let's boys, let's look like we've done this before. And I said, because we have. So let's go train up, you know.
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B
Yeah. That's awesome. Being true to yourself was kind of the theme of today.
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A
Yeah.
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B
What do you mean by being true to yourself? What does that mean to John Lovato Jr.
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A
So I, I said, I think I said before we recorded that the man makes a position, the position does not make the man. So it's like making excuses. Well, I have to act this way because I'm a. This is my title. This is, you know, because I'm. My name is John Levato. I'm also a battalion chief, you know what I mean? I don't identify as a battalion, that's just the rank I got right now. And I got to have to give it up to someone else, you know, so be true to yourself is not only do, you know, we think we have to act a certain way because of our title or job or whatever. But then sometimes, and I've seen it where people will put on a mask like we're not being real. It's like an act, like an actor in a movie and they're acting A certain way, like, hey, but what's important to you? Like, and it's almost like going back, well, I have to be liked or I have to make sure I don't upset this person or that you're not being true to yourself. You can't. It's kind of say what needs to be said and just accept how it. You know. And this has been a lot of journeying on my own, of trying to learn stuff, like, hey, this is what I do because I like it. I don't really give a crap what you think, you know, And I've had some tough conversations with people above and below, and it, like, it just goes back to giving more perspective on, hey, man, you know, why are you doing this? Why do you think this is okay? And I just keep. I do what I think is right based on my experiences. And I. And I think when we. We're not true to ourselves is when we are frustrated, we get angry, sad. All those negative emotions come back with. It's like our body telling us, hey, man, you know, you're not doing it's right. Like, And I'll give you an example. It's. I got told to do something. And, you know, I've just like everyone else, you know, in this profession, always do what you're told, follow orders, whatever. And inside I knew it was wrong, but I'm like, I gotta do what I'm told. And I felt miserable because I knew better. And that's when I learned. Now I'm like, hey, I've had conversations. My bosses, respectfully. I go, listen, if you can't convince me of this, because my experience is telling me we shouldn't do this, I go, I'm gonna take the consequences. I'm gonna say no. I'm like. Because I have a different. I've had different experiences. And, you know, it doesn't matter what someone's title. It's like blindly following.
- [12:58]
B
Like, yeah, yeah, definitely.
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A
Who said, man, we're getting deep here.
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B
But I like it. I like it.
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A
Who said, I'm just following orders? Nazi soldiers said we were just on orders. That's getting a little extreme. I understand.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
When we do that, like, there are no victims. No one's forcing you because the person maybe that told you to do something doesn't have all the information or the best intentions. You know, it gets muddy. But, like.
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B
Yeah, but I love it, though, because you're talking about being true to yourself, and I. I hear a lot of. I mean, I come from a little bit of a. I Come from a training background as well. I spent several years in the training division myself at different times of my career. But it goes to training and mentorship. It's like, some people will say, oh, you know, I didn't have time to train. I'd have time to mentor. Or, why don't we get enough training or mentorship from, you know, our peers, our. Our supervisors, the training, whatever.
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A
Right.
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B
But it's like, at the end of the day, we know training and mentorship is important. Why do we let other things get in the way? Right. Like, oh, I didn't have time today. I got to do XYZ. It's like, no, there's time in the day. There's 24 hours in the day. You talked about creativity earlier. Doing things a little differently, but like, yeah, be true to yourself. If you know something's important, go do it. It's like, if. If you're not gonna get in trouble because you spend a few hours training and mentorship of other people just wasn't a priority. Right. And it's like. Like, you could have done these other things. It's like, yeah, you could have done those other things. But I know training and mentorship of our people is not. Is. Is. Is. Is. Is needed. So, like, if you're gonna get in trouble because you didn't do X and instead you did training and mentorship, what. I mean, what are you scared of? Right?
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A
What's trouble?
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B
Exactly. And then there you go. And then what's trouble?
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A
Someone talking to me.
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B
Yeah.
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A
I talk back.
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B
Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, yeah.
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A
Energy. Someone writing words on paper. Listen, like I said, this might get a little out there, but. But I like it.
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B
I like it. Right? Because, like, my.
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A
We have. We'll talk about progressive discipline very, very briefly.
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B
Yes.
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A
We have counseling forms, written reprimands, and that's really it. So for us, our culture is, hey, man, do you know. Why'd you do. Why didn't you have your gear on the rig ready to go? Oh, I got sidetracked with this. Okay. Typically, first offense is just a conversation with the company officer and the person. Right. Making them aware because, like, unaware, unwilling, unable. Right. Most of the time, from my experience, it's. They're just unaware. Yep. You know, very rarely is it unwilling. But we. Our brains, the way we're wired, we always say unwilling. This guy's being insubordinate. His respects. And then you get. You're going down a rabbit hole. You're like, whoa, maybe they didn't know y. So we Got to retrain that part. But end of the day, you know, I've had to do so with counseling forms. It's. There's. That's. That's it. It's just a piece of paper with me saying, hey, we had a conversation about getting your gear on the rig. Right. Just a piece of paper with words on it. Right. Even a written reprimand. I've got a written reprimand. We have narcotic transfer. I didn't do it right. One time, got a written reprimand. Because of the severity. Doesn't mean I'm a bad person.
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B
Right.
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A
It wasn't intentional. I. I screwed up. No big deal. Right? Now you start getting time off, that affects the wallet. Right? You get fired, that's a big deal. But a lot of times, like, oh, my gosh, I got a. I got a counseling form or I got a written reprimand. Were you doing the right thing? You know, did you learn from it? Because you're either winning or you're learning. You know, that's. I do jiu jitsu. That's. We have there. I do a lot of learning when I'm there, by the way. Either win or you learn. And, you know, we. We dwell on these negative emotions, like, I'm bad about this. Like, if. If someone of our admins, like, hey, make sure you're doing this, or they're getting on top of me. I don't like being. I really can't call it micromanaging because it's just them seeing something that's not maybe addressed, but they're. They're so detached. They don't know. And I would take it, like, I'm not doing my job right. No, that's just maybe being a little bit more involved than they need to be. And I'm. I have to stop taking it personally. And that makes things better for me, where I know they're gonna reach out. I already got it. But as long as you don't take it personally, it doesn't matter. Yeah, like, it's. It's kind of like, really, life is just navigating other people's egos and your own. Like, if you can keep them, you know, they're gonna throw their bad juju at you, and you're just like, wow, you need help. You know, if you don't let it affect you, you're invincible.
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B
Yeah, you're good.
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A
So, you know, and it's because how we're all raised schooling and jobs and do what you're told, and you're in Trouble. You know, I don't know if it's because I've gotten older.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Or what. But I'm like. I tell guys, I go, hey, this is just words on paper. Don't beat yourself up. The whole goal of this is to be a little bit better, but I don't want to have five of these conversations before you get better.
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B
Yep, yep. Exactly. Yeah.
- [17:51]
A
Yeah. Got 50 people on my shift. Yeah.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And, you know, I forgot what we were talking about before the progressive. But I just kind of want to touch on that because, you know, we. We have this fear. And you're like, I had a chief, he's since retired, and, you know, he goes, listen, if you didn't follow policy, have a good reason.
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B
Yeah. Right. Of course. Right.
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A
Yeah.
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B
I mean, tell me why. So.
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A
But you have to, when you ask why, you're not like, you're coming from an actual curious place. Not, you know, why'd you do that? And because that's different. That's. That's just the energy that you're bringing to the table.
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B
Yeah. I love that. Because you.
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A
You.
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B
I was already gonna go here, and then you said the word. So you said, just be curious. So you talked about, you know, the three U's, right. The. The unaware, the unwilling or unable and unwilling. Right. And sometimes we do jump to the, oh, that person was just unwilling to do that. Well, it's like. Well, no. Like, we don't know the whole story. So I was listening to the John Lovato show, and I want to talk a little bit about that about there. I haven't seen any new episodes, but in one of your shows, you. You talked about that. Curious. You said, be curious, not judgmental. Right. And that goes to the thing about, you know, don't jump to the conclusion that someone's unwilling to do something. Maybe they were unaware, maybe they were unable. Like we talked about earlier, did they even have the resources? Were they even aware of the expectations? Right. So can you talk about how being curious about people's actions and not just jumping straight to a. Well, they did that because of X. You know, got a good pen and paper? We got to have a counseling session. Right. So how important is curiosity?
- [19:16]
A
I think it's everything. Because. Because relationships are everything. Like, every problem in the department is a leadership problem and a discussion. Your leadership is based on your relationship with people. So you actually have to be curious. Like, call them up. My boss knows I'm going to ask why when they tell me to do something, if it's not like, Yes, I agree 100% because I need to understand it so that I can deliver it. And I'm the same way with my crews. Like, hey, what's going on here? Oh, I had a good one, and I almost screwed up because we have a station that always needs to have a unit covering it. And so if they get a call, another unit has to go back fill because it's like, it's not an island. But the way our borders are, the next response would be just ridiculous. So when I looked at our. We have an app on our phone where I can see all the units in my city. And when I looked at it, there was no one there. And I could see all the units that were supposed to be involved in covering it in different spots. And I was about to. My instinct was I kind of got. I can't remember exactly, but I got a. I was not happy. And I was like, what the heck's going on? But I said that to myself, right? So I think I ended up texting the group of guys like, hey, is anyone covering this station right now? So I asked because I was curious, because I have just technology, right? Technology fails, and that's exactly what it was. I ended up calling the captain Stormy assigned there, and he goes, yeah, no, we're here. He goes, it's just not updating our apparatus. So the point was I was about to look like a real jerk for no reason at all. Because we're wired to go negative at times. We have to fight that urge. So that's what I mean by being curious. Like, hey, talk me through this. Why'd you guys do that? And when you get their side of it, I can only speak for myself. Like, I had eight years as a captain, and like, I. I always agree with them, you know, I'm like, oh, I get that. You know, I just had something the other day where there's something weird happened or dispatch center didn't send the right unit to something. I'm like, man, what's up with these guys? You know? Yeah, they called me and they said, hey, we just want to let you know what happened. I go, thank you so much for calling me and letting me know, because I did it again. I didn't make a big deal of it, but I'm wired the same way where if you can just pause.
- [21:38]
B
Yeah, oh, yeah.
- [21:39]
A
And stay in that uncomfortable spot and go, all right, I'm having these negative emotions. I'm not going to respond. I'm not going to react. I'm going to respond and find out more Information. So many little issues stay.
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B
Little issues stay little. Yeah.
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A
And there's so many times it comes bigger because it just wasn't addressed or addressed. Right.
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B
Yep.
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A
You know.
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B
Yeah. Or, or you reacted versus you responded. And I love that because you hear that a lot. Right. Just that sit with that awkwardness. Because we are wired, a lot of us as humans, we're wired to react and respond. Right away something comes up, whoa, what are you doing? What are you doing here? Like, like pause for that, for that minute. Right. Because you could have a different response. And you know, that goes with writing an email that goes, oh God. Right. Like, like sit on that email for at least an hour, maybe overnight.
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A
Ready, don't send it or that.
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B
And don't send it.
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A
Either call them on the phone or go sit down with them.
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B
Exactly.
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A
Is amazing how a simple email, which is words on paper, can be misunderstood because you don't see the tone, intention, whatever. I've had mine misunderstood. I've been misunderstood. I've done, you know, and I actually, I learned that from. So my, my department, we have two bcs on duty, one in the north, one in the south. And I'm the junior bc and the senior one, he's been like a Patellan chief like 10 years. Biggest thing I got from him, he just goes, he's like, I'll go talk to him. He's in person. Maybe the phone instead of the email, instead of the text. Because you just. Stuff gets misunderstood and I've removed that. I mean, the only time I send an email out or text is when it's literally like a, it's not a judgmental thing. It's like, hey, what's going on here? Something simple, right?
- [23:24]
B
Yeah.
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A
Anything complex. I prefer I sit, I sit in the. With the. Whoever I need to talk to. If it's a chief officer, if it's a captain and we go, hey, what's going on? You know, because you have. There's so much less issues then.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And more clear understanding. Yep. There's way less room for jump to conclusions. And you're like, oh, okay. Yeah.
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B
And how many times have we done that? Right. We actually sat and had a conversation with somebody after gaining that perspective and have we said like, ah, okay, thanks for explaining now, now I understand. Right. And it's like, okay, now you understand. But we should all be doing that because how many times would all of us be saying, okay, now I understand. Right. It's.
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A
It's a learned skill.
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B
Okay, good. Exactly. So let's talk about. That is a Learned skill. Because I was going to ask you, Chief, because you said that's how you do things. But let's. I mean, maybe you were always this way, but maybe 15 years ago, maybe you weren't always this way. You said it's a learned skill. So I know we're going to talk a lot about training, development of ourselves and each other in our departments. So a second ago you said, since every problem is a leadership problem, who develops leaders? Because in our organizations, we do so well training to, you know, the skill sets, the JPRs of the job. Right. The hard skills of the job. Right. We were doing so much tactics training. We're doing so much hoes and ladders and EMS stuff. But we just said every problem is a leadership problem of some sort. But do our departments have leadership development programs? So who develops leaders to the point where you just said it's a learned skill to go out and have those conversations sit with awkwardness? How are we doing that?
- [25:00]
A
Well, it all depends on what you have in place. So if you have nothing in place formally, then the informal process is people's examples. You're just doing what the guy before you did. Or maybe the way you're raised, all those factors come into play. If you have a formal process, that's good. You know, but most of the formal processes, I feel like, kind of dive into, like a technical part of the job.
- [25:21]
B
Yeah.
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A
I mean, maybe a little bit of leadership, but doesn't have to be that way.
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B
Right.
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A
Like, if you want, like, I don't know other professors that have it, but there's a conference every weekend somewhere in this country and there's guys willing to share. Yeah. And teach you stuff. And that's where you kind of chase your own experience, you know? Oh, I. I don't. I don't have a gym. All right. Go buy a kettlebell. You know, we can find solutions to problems, but leadership part, you're just going to learn from the guy that you're around. That's why the whole. You're the average of five people you surround yourself with. Like, you really gotta be picky because you do. You will change and focus on who you surround yourself with. And if you don't like the way things are being done, go out and learn it and bring it back. You know, end of the day, treat people good.
- [26:10]
B
Yeah.
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A
Like, that's really the easiest. And, you know, maybe, I don't know, it's a combination of. I just wanted something a little bit different and I learned.
- [26:18]
B
Yeah.
- [26:19]
A
And then I wanted my people to do what I wanted because they wanted to, not because I said, oh, yes. Sometimes I have to be like, hey, I really need this. But, like, I don't get pushback, man. We don't have issues. And maybe I'm oblivious to it, but I have, I think, a good rapport with my captains. And, you know, I'm gonna quote one of them right now. He goes. He goes, if you're yelling, you're losing. And one day I asked something, and he goes, you know what? You know what, Johnny? You know, listen, I have my title, but I. I don't like, if people want to call me, that's fine. But me and him, we're also friends outside of work. He goes, I'll do whatever you ask. And I looked at him, he goes, because you're not a dick. I go, thanks, man. Dude, that's. That's just as simple as that. Like, yeah, yeah. Like, I, I. And I liked it because it was simple. He's right. Like, I, I take input if they have a. They want a better idea. I think we talked earlier. I don't know if we're recording yet, but it said the 70 rule with Jocko. Like, yep, yep. So I got it. Like, if they're going to come up with a solution that's at least 70%, then roll with it, man, because that's how they learn, and they'll take ownership of it, and then they're going to make more decisions. And that's how you develop people, is letting. Helping them solve their own problems.
- [27:35]
B
Yeah. How many times have we seen that?
- [27:37]
A
But I hate this one. Figured out you're an adult. Yeah, that's a answer.
- [27:41]
B
Yeah.
- [27:42]
A
Yeah.
- [27:42]
B
Well, how much of that is just simply because they don't want.
- [27:45]
A
They don't know.
- [27:46]
B
They don't know. They don't know. They don't want to put their time in helping.
- [27:48]
A
Right.
- [27:48]
B
They don't want to mentor. They don't want to. They just want to get it off their plate. Hey, I'm. I'm too busy for this.
- [27:52]
A
No, no, no, no, no. It's. They don't want to.
- [27:55]
B
Okay, there you go.
- [27:56]
A
Yeah, that's the excuse we all use. I'm guilty of it, too.
- [27:59]
B
Yeah. How about this one, Chief? You said this earlier. I don't think we were reporting it, but you said your crews, they allow you to lead them. Yeah, tell me about that.
- [28:09]
A
My captains run my ship, my relationship with them. And I. I'm speaking for the other battalion chief, too. It's not just me. It's both of Us, it's a team effort, but our relationship with them and the way we treat them, they allowed us to lead them because I can't force them to do anything. I can write words on paper, counseling forms, whatever. But at least how I see it, they don't do things out of fear. They do it because they want to or they realize it's for the team. We're the only shift that we do a station rotation for, like, two really slow stations and a real busy one. And they understood. You know, the guys at the real nice station didn't want to leave, but they understood why we were doing it, because I explained it and I took the time. You know, the administration. One of the guys wanted. He likes everything the same, but how I see it is people aren't the same. So you can't expect a firehouse to be the same. You can't expect shifts to be the same. We're all different people. And kind of what we said in the meeting was, listen, I'm not. I don't want the other shifts to do this because we're doing it, and I'm not about to stop it because they don't want to. And my counterpart said, this is working for us, and they understood. We explained it, and we went with it. But you know how we treat our captains. That's why they follow us. Like, if we were a jerk all the time, they're gonna resist and do the bare minimum. And, you know, I had a chief years ago, he said, the captain's run the fire department. He's right. So you got to invest in them. And, you know, I've accepted there's ones that are going to train all the time. They're ones that are just going to do the bare minimum. Like, everyone's different, and I just accept where they're at and just try to help. Try to help them become a little bit better versions of themselves, if I can.
- [29:48]
B
Yeah.
- [29:49]
A
You know, what is it that you do, Chief?
- [29:52]
B
Specifically? Like, obviously, you're. You're. You're. You're supporting them where they need support. You're answering the questions or helping them find answers to solutions when they need it. You're mentoring them. But what are some of the things that you do specifically that just allows them to run the show, run the. Run the shift, run the battalion, and you're just there mentoring and answering questions like, what. What does that look like? You know, because I'm a captain now, and I'm trying to. How do I lead from, you know, my battalion and my ship to make sure that my chief, my battalion chief is just, you know, is allowing me to, you know, to run with the, the, you know, make it smooth like what you're saying.
- [30:28]
A
Having conversations. I guess it's a. I, I want. My goal was always to do a little bit more training than I'm doing now. This is an excuse. We lost our training field three years ago. The city sold the land. But we have a, like a really nice one that's about to open up next month. Our training division did a lot of work, did a great job with it. So it's still an excuse. I've done a handful of drills getting companies together to give them the experience. Right. So I would. And if I do drills, I try to do it and let the drill evolve and let them, it's, it's a drill to give them an aha. Like hey guys, I'm a big proponent that if we're doing a long lay I want to double tap the hydrant and relay pump because of water supply issues. So I, we did a drill where they saw it, right. I didn't do it. We have eight stations. Most of them are two piece houses. So I mean it's. I don't get everyone. I did a couple units but the meat potatoes is. I visit my stations almost every shift. If it's not my battalion, I visit other stations whoever needs it, right. Because I have a large response area that if I'm going to our main downtown where admin's at, some other stuff, it's really hard to get to everything. But I'm not there to get the mail. People think, oh, you're just there get the mail. I am getting the mail. I'm there to talk to the captain and talk to the crews and see what's going on and just build that rapport. And if they're in a negative mindset, try to give perspective to help. Right. And then. But I also let them come up with the how we're gonna get stuff. I might tell them what needs to get done and why, but let them figure out the how and help them solve their own problems. That's it. It's nothing. I'm not doing anything crazy. Like I said, I want to do more drills because we've had some department wide drills. I'm like, oh man, I see this. I really got to focus on multi companies so the captains can learn to how important it is to communicate to each other. So we don't have too many people in a, in an apartment or something like that or just Working together. But really I think it just comes down to mentoring and conversations I have. And if they have an issue, help them. And you know, if they want a certain person on their crew, giving them to them, like as long as there's no issues.
- [32:33]
B
Right.
- [32:34]
A
You know, try to put the like minded people together, you know, one crew that the captain is fine. Being a captain is going to retire. The engineers finding engineer. The fireman's fine. Being a fireman. And they all get along, so they're good. Not everyone wants to promote. Everyone's motivated by something different. And I, I understand that and I try to give them as much everything they want. I try.
- [33:01]
B
Yeah.
- [33:01]
A
And if I can't, I explain why. You know what I mean? Like, it's not because I said so. I hate that. You know, I, I told the captain one day, hey, send, send so and so to this station. This time he goes, hey, do you care if I send so and so this other guy? I said, I don't care who you send. I just need a body. And the more senior captain said, hey, that's cool you did that. Because we've had guys in the past that it had to be their way. I go, buddy, I can't take credit. I don't care who goes like the body there. And I had to make a decision because, you know, higher up you go, there's this thing called decision fatigue. So I tell guys, I go, hey man, don't bring stuff up to the admin chiefs to solve if we can solve at our level. Because you're not going to like the solution. Just like you might not like my solution to something. Yeah, sure, but let's, you know, and you know, they got to make a lot of decisions up there. I don't want their job. Hey, you know, my, my path worked out exactly how it's supposed to work out.
- [33:57]
B
Yeah.
- [33:57]
A
And so I try to keep decisions off their plate because, yeah, I might have to now have rapport to try to get it more what I want, you know?
- [34:07]
B
Yeah, yeah. I love that though. I mean you, you are open to that, meaning you are open completely to your company officers to come up with the plans to, you said to lead them. Right. Like you're, you're there to support them, right? Not make decisions for them. But you're open to that because not everybody is, right? Not every, we'll just say every battalion, every battalion chief, every crew command, incident command, whatever it is. It's a lot of times, you'll see, it's, it's, it's got to be their way. Right.
- [34:36]
A
The man makes a position, Right?
- [34:38]
B
Yeah.
- [34:39]
A
And why are you promoting is important. So I don't know if we're gonna get into this, but we are now. So I think it's important of the. Why people are doing something. When I first got hired, I was fine being a fireman. You know, we were going to maybe a couple fires a month. You know, there's some kitchen fires mixed in there, and this is great. And then I got moved to a station with a cap. I had good captains early in my career, and then I had one that wasn't. I was like, if this Jamal can be a captain, so can I, you know? And that's when I started promoting. So I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is. This is crazy. Right? And a lot of my decisions to promote was like, we're not getting enough fire. I kind of want to go to more. So I became an engineer, then captain, and once I made captain, that was my goal. And I had the most fun as a captain. It was challenging, but very rewarding. I think I had a pretty good reputation. And a lot of the guys, I. I've worked with our captains now, and I think I gave him some good examples, and hopefully they learn from my bad examples and don't do that. But I was fine being a captain. And our current fire chief, I think he was fire chief or the deputy chief at the time, he might have been fired chief. He came out, and he is a very good communicator, motivator. Like, he's. He's good with that. And he came out and he kind of talked me up and razzle dazzled me, and, you know, hey, I need you. Need guys like you to take this battalion chief. Because we were. Oh, we were. We were adding a second battalion at the time. And he talked me into working on my acting. Never wanted it. I started doing the acting, and I like the freedom of. Definitely is not as fun, but I like. I liked it. I'm like, all right, I'll do this. He kind of talked me into it, and they end up getting the 2nd Battalion. And then, you know, more people retired, whatnot. And I ended up testing, and I ended up getting it. And I tell guys it's not as fun as being a company officer.
- [36:40]
B
No.
- [36:40]
A
You ask anyone, they'll tell you the same thing. It's not bad because it's what you make it. And I think a lot of my job is just mentorship now.
- [36:47]
B
Yeah.
- [36:47]
A
And I. I try to share good stuff, and I. I try to bite my tongue if I'm starting to get negative or complain about something because it's not productive. Do I do it? I do, I need to stop. But working on it, you know, But I feel like that was the right reason. So like I didn't, I didn't promote from a lack inside. I think when people have a lack inside of them, which could be also like an insecurity, and they promote because they feel like they'll get respected with a certain title, that's a recipe for disaster. Because people respect the man in the position. And just because you have a title doesn't mean you're going to get the respect concerned. You know, we have this balance of, well, if I be, this guy was a captain, so if I make captain, I'll be respected. Well, no, you got to treat people right too. It's. And I think that's where we go wrong and in any profession is when you do it for the wrong leaders. You know, I'm going to quote Jocko again. Good leaders are rare. Bad leaders are common. Because why'd you promote? You know, did you promote because there's a lack inside and some insecurities you want to feel you're never going to fill it. You know, you got to figure out what that issue is and trying to heal it, but you're not going to fill it with a title or more money. Yeah, I mean that's a whole nother conversation. But I think while you're promoting, it is a fact. Like I just look at how our, how we're structured and for most part the guys that take their time, go through the ranks, they don't seem to have that. Some do. So it's not a, it's not a fail safe way. But I really think the, the reason you're promoting is important also. Hopefully you're doing it to, to help the team. Team. You know, anytime I have a performance issue or behavior issue or attitude issue, I've learned to, when sitting down with the person, show them how they're hurting their team. Because no one wants to be a bad teammate.
- [38:30]
B
Right.
- [38:31]
A
Once you make them aware how they're letting the team down, it's kind of, it kind of resonates a little bit more.
- [38:35]
B
Yeah, yeah. And that goes, that's up and down too. Right. Like at every rank. Meaning sometimes, you know, it's the, the firefighter that's, you know, letting the team down due to issues, whatever. But sometimes company officer for the lack of leading, you know, the crew or unmet expectations or maybe he's in the battalion chief or the deputy chief for the lack of having the expectations or providing the avenue for training and mentorship to take place. So, but that, that's up and down, right? That's, that's up and down.
- [39:01]
A
You're either winning or you're learning. So if, if it wasn't good, just learn from it. Don't take it personal. Listen, I, I make mistakes quite often. Yeah, you can fool your boss, you can fool your peers, but you can't fool your subordinates or your wife. You can't fool her either.
- [39:17]
B
True, true.
- [39:20]
A
Unfortunate. My wife will call me out and I'm like, I stopped taking it personal and realized she's right. I just didn't like her tone.
- [39:26]
B
Yeah, that's right. It's a text message, right? You can never. Well, you said something so key. I want to, I want to highlight it because you said it was your fire chief, maybe it was your deputy at the time, but any at the end of the day, is it executive level chief at the end of the day, a leader. You said a good communicator and a motivator. And a motivator, right? Like, like I, I, I'm in a sports. Chief, you're in the sports, obviously. Do jiu jitsu? Do you watch, you know, football, baseball, basketball, any, you know.
- [39:51]
A
No, not at all. It's actually a joke that I have with the guys because I'll like baseball beyond. I'm like, oh, you guys got tennis going and they just, I tried to get into it, I just can't.
- [40:01]
B
And I only bring it up.
- [40:02]
A
Fishing show on. I'll sit down, though.
- [40:03]
B
Oh, what kind of show?
- [40:04]
A
A fishing show.
- [40:05]
B
Oh, fishing.
- [40:06]
A
Oh, yeah. I don't understand it.
- [40:08]
B
But, but the only reason I bring it up is because like, motivation, inspiration, however you want to call it, is, is key. Right. Because when you are on a team environment. Right. I only bring it up because when we're talking about a team environment, you talked about building a winning team. We're in a team atmosphere. We work in groups and there needs to be some inspiration, some motivation. The mentors, the trainers need to be able to inspire the group to do good things, to, to achieve a high level, to reach the potential, whatever. They always got to be good communicators. So you mentioned that the leader, your, your fire chief is a good communicator and a good motivator. I mean, talk about, I mean, how key is that in a leader?
- [40:46]
A
Oh, I, I, once again, it's a learned skill set. It's everything that that's why I think there's struggles, because communication. We say communication, but use it. It's too vague. Yes. You have to, don't assume stuff's gonna happen. You have to make sure you tell people like, hey, this is my expectations of you. If they don't do it, like, hey, what's going on? But maybe we don't say anything because we're insecure inside or, you know, something like that. You know, I am not the person I used to be. I had to learn and overcome my own issues to start addressing stuff to where now it's a lot easier for me. You know, I wish I knew now what I wish I knew then what I know now. And that's the skill set as a fireman, you know, leadership. Like the best training you'll ever get is going to FDTN in Indianapolis. I. I wish I would have done it 20 years ago. I would. I did their fire combat with some group of guys from down here and we went to 30 fires in four days. And it's priceless experience. Anyone, if you want to be good at this job, go there like, like. And I. It ruined me. There's nothing can compare to it, like, better. It made me also, I think a little bit better instructor because I Learned from Jim McCormick and some of those guys that are teaching out there and their training, they are phenomenal, everything they have going on there. So I mean, I had to touch on that a little bit. I know it's most about leadership, but love it. As far as you want to be good at this job and you're not getting enough fire at your place or you don't have regular training, like, no fire department can replicate what FDTN is doing because the amount of personnel they had there helping and the amount of experience they had out there and just how they operate, like, it was amazing.
- [42:28]
B
Wow, fdtn? Is that what it is?
- [42:31]
A
Yeah, Fire Department Training Network. Yeah, they put out monthly, like newsletters that our department subscribes to and we've sent a couple batches of guys up there.
- [42:41]
B
Yeah.
- [42:41]
A
And it's just phenomenal.
- [42:43]
B
Yeah.
- [42:44]
A
All right.
- [42:44]
B
Well, I have to look at the.
- [42:45]
A
Hardest fires I've fought and they were in contact, but still they're deep seated and.
- [42:48]
B
Right.
- [42:49]
A
You learn a lot with it. But yeah, as far as going back to communication, you know, even go back to fire ground, like, hey, I need captains. If you're working, there's one search one's fire attack. They got to communicate each other like, hey, you're grabbing them by the coat saying, hey, this is what we're doing. Okay, cool. And you know, but it all depends on what you learned coming up. But people do appreciate the phone calls. Like something simple. Like we have a captain working on becoming an acting battalion and he made some moves on our roster and I, I looked at it later and I'm like, oh man, this isn't going to work because we didn't have our hazmat tax or hazmat station. No, he's learning. I called him up though, when I was done, I said, hey man, I just want to let you know I'm not trying to piss in your Kool Aid. I go, but I made some moves and I told him why. He goes, hey man, I appreciate the phone call. Because what do we start doing? We start making assumptions.
- [43:36]
B
Yes.
- [43:37]
A
And he's a mature man. He's not going to. But yes, I still do that because I, I want to know why I did it as a learning experience and to realize, hey, it's fine, I noticed this stuff and it was just easier for me to fix it than going to him. And yeah, but man, just making those phone calls and being clear. More, more phone calls and more one on one meetings and less texting and less emails and that'll solve a lot of issues.
- [44:00]
B
So there you go. There you go. Keep it simple.
- [44:03]
A
Yeah, but that learned thing, that learned thing, yeah, because it's real easy to type on a phone or the computer and send something out instead of taking the time to have those conversations.
- [44:17]
B
So I mean, I know you're obviously big on, you know, just continued learning. We're going to talk about chase experience and we're not going to touch that now because I know that's in a segment later, but continued learning, open mindset, you know, optimistic, all that. But you, we keep going back to. It's a learned skill. Right. So it is a learned skill regardless at what age you're at, where you're at in your career, what rank you're at. So meaning you could be a, you know, a captain, a battalion chief, an executive level chief. That's in their 50s. Right. Maybe near retirement. That has been just. We'll just throw it out there as an example. Bad communicator, you know, never really inspired the people, didn't really mentor. But then can become that in their 29th year in the fire service. Right. They could be, they could learn to then become a good communicator at that point. Obviously it's going to take a while to build up credibility, but the Point of it is we keep going back to. It's a learned skill. So let's just use someone that's in their position, that's been there for 10 years. Right. Just use the rank of battalion chief just for an example. We could use captain as well. That has just not been fully present. Not there, but you know, where their people aren't going to them, reaching out to them. They're not wanting to have phone calls and conversations with them. But then, you know, you can develop later too. You could develop in your position and say, you know what, I haven't been this leader that I should have been, but I want to be. Yeah, I got two years left in the fire service, got six years left, whatever it is. But because it's about being open to continued learning, right. To then become better. Because let's just say for example for you, Chief, were you always good at communication? Did you always. Yeah. Right. So at one point where you're like, you know what? I'm now going to be that person that, that always picks up the phone and calls somebody, that I'm going to go have one on one conversations before I start assuming I'm going to be curious and less judgmental. Like how you, when, where does that transformation take place?
- [46:02]
A
I'm still learning.
- [46:03]
B
I'm still learning, still learning. That's the answer right there, right?
- [46:06]
A
It really. No, I'm still, you know, if you don't do the right thing, you're going to have chaos in your life. I'm tired of the chaos. So I'm trying to be better in all aspects of my life. I, I realized when I raised my voice or yell at my kids, they shut down. I don't want to do that no more, you know. So in all aspects of my life, realize, oh wow, this is, this is my issue that I haven't addressed yet. So it probably started as a captain because I had my expectations. So I had to sit down with every single person, go over it and I used to have a nut my first six months the captain. I had a knot, my stomach every day because I was so uncomfortable and it just got a little bit easier. And you know, I've never really, I didn't do formal ones as a battalion chief because I didn't know what they would be. And now everyone's kind of meeting them anyways. And if I have a new captain come on, I go over. They're more like principle based because I also feel like my job is more strategic and less tactic with them. Like they're the Tactic guys. Right. But it's just a learned thing. And keep wanting to, like, I want this to be better. How do I do it? And just trying to have better examples and learn from other people. And, you know, there's people with bad program, as I say, because just like animals can be trained, so are humans.
- [47:23]
B
Yeah.
- [47:23]
A
You were trained by your parents, by your friends, by people at your work. And, you know, you can change it, but you kind of got to get those cobwebs off and go, oh, I don't want to be like that. Right. And it's not easy, but, you know, because I've. I've been told by an administrator before, hey, fire back an email and give them a little dig here and there, show them, like, who's boss. I go, are you nuts? That's a horrible advice. I'm not doing that. But that's how some people operate. Yeah. Like, it works. And I'm like, that's wrong, because I don't want to be treated that way. Right. And I think. I think it comes back to like, hey, how do you want to be talked to? And. But still learn, because it's. It's easy to type on your phone or type on the computer. It's harder to talk in person. But, yeah, it goes way further. And, hey, maybe someone listening to this will go, oh, I'll try that. I don't know. You know, but you have to want it.
- [48:19]
B
Yep.
- [48:19]
A
You know, because, you know, I think this profession changes you and not in a good way. I think the. The constant chaos we're around, the fight or flight response messes with our insides, and so it changes how we are. I think the ego can be way too much influenced by your title at work or even traveling around teaching could. It could enlarge the ego more than it needs to be. That's up to you to control it. But, you know, open the newspaper. How many times do you see, like, a fire chief in the newspaper doing something just. That was bananas. You're like, was. It's. It's. The eagle gets fed too much.
- [48:55]
B
Yeah.
- [48:56]
A
Yeah. And you are not your position. You have a responsibility there. But it's also all those stress that we're around, and you kind of have to figure out best ways to manage it.
- [49:07]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [49:09]
A
And, you know, part of me, you know, I'm a big proponent of, you know, I got started in the fire service in 98 outside of Chicago as a. As an explorer, as a cadet, and. But I'm gonna have my 25 years on with this department for my pension in three and a half years. And while I think I'm doing a good job at what I do, and I do enjoy it at times, I think what's best for me is to retire then and kind of slow things down, be around my family and experience life at a slower pace. Because, I mean, I showed you the freshwater canal that we're on. Go boating. I have a food forest over here that I like. You know, I like simple things, and I'm very calm when I'm home. And the minute I walk in the door at work, it's like the energy level goes up. You're like, what is going on?
- [49:59]
B
Yeah.
- [50:00]
A
And I don't think that's healthy to be around. And so that's why, you know. But I think a lot of guys in our profession, they retire from one or they stay forever and they go someplace else because we get used to that chaos. And if you feel normal, we seek out chaos. Why do you think the divorce rate so high? Enough profession.
- [50:15]
B
Agreed.
- [50:15]
A
Chaos part, it's, it's. It's. You know, I started watching Rescue Me again. I watched it as a young fireman, and I found out it's on Hulu, and I have Hulu, and I put it on. And I see it differently now. And I see a bunch of guys, and it's a TV show, but all they are, are coping with the stress that they're undergoing by doing these habits. The drinking, the womanizing, crazy lifestyle. Right. We've all done it, but that's us coping with it. And I think that's why I see it now. I'm like, like it. It's cool, but I'm like, it's not everything.
- [50:52]
B
Right?
- [50:53]
A
You know, and do what you like. But now that I see that part of it, I'm like, maybe it is time to go and, and live life at a slower pace. Still do be active and, you know, help people out. But. But you see, you see it hijack people, their emotions, egos, whatever. And you're like, man, this isn't. I don't think this is healthy.
- [51:14]
B
Yeah.
- [51:15]
A
You know, why do you think, you know, listen, I'm not a doctor, and I hope you don't ruffle feather, but, you know, there's also. We've got a pretty ridiculous high suicide rate going on. And I. I start wondering why. Why is this happening? You know, And I don't have the answer. I have my theories, and I don't like theories, but what I'm learning about the human body and our experiences more and More I think is the fight or flight even going on Emergency call. Yeah. You see stuff. Listen, man, you know, there's a call that really affected me and I don't want to say it broke me, but it really shook me up. And we, you know, maybe it takes a while for you to happen, but it's not always the calls. It could be how you're being treated there. Yes, whatever. I don't think the human. We were designed for that. That's why this. We're learning about PTSD in the military and our profession of cops. Yeah, cops, dude, they got it worse than we do. I got buddies with it and you know, I don't have an answer, but I, I do think managing it and getting out as soon as you can.
- [52:18]
B
Yeah.
- [52:19]
A
To stay healthy and recover. I hate to say it, but.
- [52:24]
B
I agree.
- [52:25]
A
The real thing, because you just start seeing behaviors like this doesn't make sense. Why is this person doing this?
- [52:29]
B
Yeah, I agree.
- [52:29]
A
Are they screaming? Like if you're yelling, you're losing.
- [52:32]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [52:32]
A
You know, exactly.
- [52:34]
B
Oh, so much there, Chief. What's, what's non negotiable? The Chief Lovato. Like, right. There's, there's, there's traits out there. Right. And sometimes there's like five things where you know what this person. You can't be doing this as a leader or you should be doing this if you want to be a great leader. But if I were to stick it just a one thing, Chief, and you're like to be an effective leader in the fire service, what is just simply non negotiable.
- [52:56]
A
I don't know if I'm going to put the words right, but if someone starts acting like a bully, so maybe they're yelling, demeaning, being mean. Like I said, I don't know if that's the right word. There's actions like that. I just can't stand it. I don't care what your title is. We're going to have a talk. And that's not okay. That's just, that's a hot button for me because that's actually like you're, you're. If you're screaming, yelling, berating someone, you are verbally hitting them and it's not okay to hit someone. So I think that's just toxic. And I don't like that. Like, you know, I mean, like, there's no place for that.
- [53:37]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [53:39]
A
So I guess that'd be my biggest one.
- [53:41]
B
Yeah.
- [53:42]
A
It doesn't. Dude, it doesn't happen.
- [53:44]
B
Right, right.
- [53:46]
A
But that's one that I just, I. I do not like, I guess that that goes back to like poor behavior.
- [53:53]
B
Yeah.
- [53:54]
A
I could be understanding to a certain point. I had it on, on a call once where a fireman kind of got mouthy. They weren't using a water can. Right. And they go, do you want to do it? And they had like attitude to the two officers. And I was like, I brought the officer over, I said, did that just happen? And he addressed it, you know, because I'm like, that's not okay. And we talked and whatnot. But so I guess, you know, manipulative behavior maybe is a better word.
- [54:22]
B
Sure, sure.
- [54:23]
A
Like, no, it's not okay.
- [54:28]
B
Academy, fire academy. Different environment there to where acceptable. If so, why? Why not? Because I guess where I'm going with that is not necessarily the yelling piece of it. It's more like in terms of the psychological piece of learning, of adult learning. We'll say, you know, is there a time and place for, you know, raising your voice to get people to understand the culture of the fire service or learn? Sure, maybe. But at the end of the day, I think the end goal of the fire academies, I believe is to provide an environment where people can grasp information and learn at a fast pace to where they can ingrain it in the short and long term memory. But I guess at the end of the day is regarding yelling, bullying, you know, raising a voice, stuff like that. Is the fire academy a little bit different to where it is acceptable?
- [55:11]
A
So this is all opinion based.
- [55:12]
B
Yeah. And of course. Right, got their opinion with it.
- [55:14]
A
Right. Very subjective. But when we raise our voice first, whatever, it's because we're not feeling heard. So if that's the case, then just do something that can get you hurt. Like, silly. It sounds like my kids school, you know, they'll be like, hey, I just up here, you just want the attention. Now have I raised my voice and cursed? Yes. But I've also said, hey, I'm talking loud and I'm gonna say right now because I want your attention. Or you might be yelling or raising your voice, but you're not yelling at them and you're not demeaning because then people shut down. What's your goal? Exactly. Exactly. You're trying to feel powerful, like a big boy. Because now that I'm older and maybe have status per se, I think that's wrong. And I'll be that way back to you. People don't like that, you know, so it's just, I don't, I still don't think there's room for it. You know, I have different expectations for a recruit, a probie, a fireman. You know, I'll get. I'll share this story. It just happened the other day. So we have. We call them rescues on my department, but they're two firefighters on a medical truck. It's a pickup truck. Right. And they're first out for medical. It's to keep our suppression vehicles available for the higher acuity calls. Right. Well, we had a bad call, and we were having the crews come over to a station to do a debriefing, and they dispatched a rescue unit to a medical call. And I saw that. That rescue unit pull up in front of me. Lights are on, but they weren't going to the call. And I. I was trying to, like, wait, like, what's going on right now? An engine showed up. I talked to the cap. I go, what's going on right now? He walked over. I see a probationary fireman get out of it. I didn't see the other more senior firemen get out. I saw the probationary fireman, and he walks up to me and he has this, like, lost look. He goes. He goes, chief, I'm. I'm. I'm out of service. But they sent me the call. I go, what do you mean? He goes, my partner wrote in, the other fireman rode on the ambulance to the hospital because we don't transport. So it was just him. I go, oh. I said, hey, man, you're out of service. Let. Let the dispatch center know you're out of service. They don't know that. You didn't tell them. They don't know. And he did that, and they sent another unit. He goes, I'm so sorry.
- [57:35]
B
I go, it's okay.
- [57:36]
A
You didn't know because the person he was on it with isn't normally at that station. You know, I understood, and I didn't want him beating himself up. I don't expect you to know that. You know it now. And that's a lesson learned, that we got to make sure these guys know it. But we're kind of relying on the other firemen to kind of clearly communicate it. And it was. It was missed. It was an accident. It was a mistake.
- [57:55]
B
Yeah.
- [57:56]
A
There's no reason to get upset.
- [57:57]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [57:59]
A
Now, if it was a guy they had three years on and, hey, what are you doing right now? You know, have a little bit. And I learned that from my predecessor because I screwed up, and I'm like, hey, why is this? You're just saying, do better. But this other Guy you wanted to write up because I have different level of expectations because your experience. So, you know, we learn teaching our recruit school, we don't put two recruits together, do a search. When I was teaching it, I would take a recruit because I was the officer, or I put another senior person with them and we would lead it because they don't have the sets and reps to make those decisions. So a lot of these younger guys, they just don't have sets and reps and experience to make these decisions. So, like, what are you upset about? You gotta be upset yourself, you know? So we learned that and we were able to teach it better, and we were giving them too much. So the way I used to operate as a captain with a rescue unit, we used to have an engineer and fireman on. Well, an engineer in my department, you gotta have at least three years as a fireman. Most my engineers had more, but I would sign them search, and we showed up together and when we changed though to two firemen on it, I stopped. I paired them up with an engine company. Now because they don't have the experience and sets and reps to make those calls, they can physically do it. And I explained to the guys, it's not that you guys can't search, you know, you give, give me an hour. You can teach anyone really to search, you know, but it's. You don't have the sets and reps to make those audibles up. Shoot, we gotta go out the window or we got to do this now. You know, I don't know how we got on that. No, I love it.
- [59:25]
B
I mean, the story is where it's at right now. You just taught me something I basically teach at fire academies. And what you just said is so true about the search thing. It's like we, we see search go the, the wrong way often, right? I mean, darkened environment, you can't see, audible, you know, distractions, whatever you call it, right? Past devices going off, and then at the end of the first repetition, it's like, what were you doing? I, I didn't really know what to do. It was dark, it's loud. Never done this before. But that concept of, you know, pair them up with the training officer from the first go round.
- [59:55]
A
Yeah, hey, man, get in this room, search that room. They can do that. Yeah. But as far as leading it or making a call to go here or do that, they just, they don't have it. So you're. It's like you're asking some guy to go deadlift a thousand pounds and they.
- [60:07]
B
Got that cheap.
- [60:08]
A
Yeah.
- [60:10]
B
All right. That's awesome. This is action item time. Chief, I know we've talked extensively. I mean, everything here today is an action item. Right? It's a. It's a. It's advice, it's recommendation. Here's what we do. Here's what I believe worked, whether it be, you know, anecdotally, subjectively, objectively at times. But there's all. There's nuggets everywhere to what we can, you know, start doing to become better in our positions and as leaders. So regarding the things we talked about today, we talked about culture. We talked about being a good teammate, talked about being a good communicator. Stay true to yourself. We talked mindset, being curious, and 17,000 other things. Talking to a newer firefighter Chief, what would you suggest they do to adopt some of the mindset and things that we've talked about today?
- [60:50]
A
Well, I just said this yesterday as we. After dinner, we normally go for walks around the firehouse with some newer people. And I said it's. This profession's a marathon, not a sprint. Take your time. Don't worry about your title. Just be. Do a good job in the position you're in, and that'll set you on a good pace. And just seek out experience you want. Don't wait for it. Go to trainings, go to classes, seek out your mentors. Otherwise, you're just going to get the default setting that your department has or that's around you. But I think we confuse. I. I don't see it a lot, but I do see it where people think, well, to be accomplished in life, I need to have this title, Be accomplished in life. You need to be a good person, treat people right. That's it. It's not as complicated as we make it.
- [61:33]
B
That's it.
- [61:33]
A
Be a good human, great profession, but be careful with it, because it's just part of your journey in life. Like, there's more to life outside. Yes. And you got to take care of yourself because, like I said, the. The chaos were around the fight or flight. I think it jacks up our hardwiring.
- [61:50]
B
Yeah.
- [61:51]
A
You know, something we'll learn, you know? You know, we're. We're gonna shoot for a 2472 next contract. Is it gonna happen? I don't know, but there's places doing it. There's places doing it for a reason. It's for our health.
- [62:03]
B
Are you guys on the modified Detroit? What are you guys on right now?
- [62:06]
A
We're on a 2448 with a three week Kelly.
- [62:08]
B
Oh, got it. Yep, yep, yep. Just straight Detroit is what they call it.
- [62:11]
A
I think as I've gotten older, I feel different. On my Cali week, Sure. I had my gallbladder out a couple years ago, and I was off for a month, and I had enough sick time because I didn't. I didn't burn it. You know, we have sick time, vacation. I. I saved it. You know, that was an amazing month. Life just was very relaxed, and I was like, this is. It was a taste of what retirement would be like. Oh, yes. Nice. You know, I still, like. I feel like going to fires and, you know, go on calls, but it's not everything.
- [62:43]
B
It's not everything.
- [62:45]
A
Yeah.
- [62:45]
B
And it's so true. It's not everything.
- [62:47]
A
All right.
- [62:48]
B
You're talking to emerging leaders, Chief. Obviously, an emerging leader has no right to it. Someone that's up and coming in terms of trying to, you know, become a leader in the organization at the rank, whatever it is. I say company officers just because that's, you know, younger leaders, but doesn't have to be younger, but something that's emerging in their role as the leaders in the fire service. What's something that you would suggest they do to adopt the mindset and some of the things we talked about today?
- [63:10]
A
Ooh, I just start developing people now. You don't need a title. You know, don't. Don't talk down on. But just share. So a good example is a buddy of mine. He just got hired with my agency, and he's got 27 years in the fire service, and he worked for a large, very large metropolitan department prior, far from here. And he's got more experience than a lot of people combined. Street experience. Right. And he's. He keeps quiet. He's keeping himself, but people asking questions, and he shares. And he's a probationary fireman, you know, so the point is, if you have stuff to share, share it. But don't be sharing to boost your own ego or to be noticed, because those are for the wrong reasons. I think the reason we do things is important. If you're doing it true to help people be better and make them safer, then good game, carry on, you know, but, you know, what changed for me is when I was an engineer, and I'm like, I'm the senior man of this crew, besides the officer. I need to start acting like it. So I kind of started doing the trainings. I went to the captain. I go, hey, care if I do this? Nope. Already good. You know, he wasn't big on training at the time, but let me run with it. And you know, that started getting the experience in the sets and reps so that when I got to the position, it wasn't my first time.
- [64:32]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [64:33]
A
Well, talk about.
- [64:34]
B
Because this is perhaps one of the biggest talking points that really hit home when I, when you wrote this is chase experience. Talk about chase experience. Because I love that I, I believe I know what that means. We talked earlier about the, the very early on we talked about that quote and it was about, don't sit around and wait for experience. Don't rely on others to help you develop. And I think that goes with chase your own experience. Run with that for a minute, chief.
- [65:02]
A
So that kind of goes back to, you know, you go back long enough and there's, there's crews that used to go to two, three fires a day. You know, they're learning as they go. That was kind of the FTTN. We were going to 8 to 10 a day. You got to practice on the next one and experience was just coming to you. Right. But if you don't have that situation, what are you gonna. Wait, how many fires are you going to? Once a month? Once every six months? Once a year? Like what's that? You're not gonna be, you're not going to be a master of your craft. Not going to be. This is a trade, you know, you're going to go hire an electrician that only wires something once a year. You know, you want to be good, you got to have the experience. It's like that's what's great about Jiu jitsu, but it doesn't matter how many years you've been doing it. How much mat time do you have? I, I have been a bad student lately, so I'm gonna go get crushed. I could go get crushed by a white belt in their 20s right now. You know, it doesn't matter the age, it's just if they have more mat time, they're gonna whoop my butt. This job is the same way. You can go look the part, be the part. You want to be the part. You gotta go chase experience, Go out there, chase it, practice it. And it goes with the actual hands on skills of it because it's a trade, you know, and the leadership aspect of it, you know, if you're not around people, you're like good leaders. Go take some classes, go to some conferences, start practicing, go learn. Can't just constantly read books and learn and not implement. You got to implement this stuff. But you can go upgrade your software. You upgrade Your phone. You upgrade your computer. Right. You gotta upgrade the software. Our brains are amazing, but we gotta upgrade it because the default setting is how you're raised or treated. And I don't know how that was. You know, I. I have a. I have a quote in my head right now, quote. But I sang. Why are you crying? You want me to give you something to cry about? You think that was good programming? No, not really.
- [66:52]
B
Right.
- [66:53]
A
But you know, that's how predis. You know, maybe your parents did at times. But the biggest point is you got to upgrade what's up here. Just don't have everything figured out. Yeah, it's constantly learning. Like I said, I share some stories with you or how I almost act like a horse's ass, jump into conclusion instead of going, let me just call right now and figure this out. That happens a lot now. I just catch myself before I do it. I still have the thoughts. Yeah, I catch myself and you know, it's a constant thing.
- [67:22]
B
Yeah, Well, I was on the. I was on the phone actually, ironically, coincidentally, I was on the phone with one of my mentors, Jesse, just last night. And we, we had just got off this. We're on this advisory board for an academy that's coming up. But anyways, we were. He called me. He's like, hey, how do you think that meeting went? And I'm like, well, what do you mean? What? You're obviously getting at something. He's just like, you know, we were talking about requirements because it's a leadership development program for emerging leaders in our region. And we're trying to find out why certain departments, departments support so many people and some departments are like, supporting nobody. Obviously there's budgetary issues, but obviously some of it is buy in and lack thereof. Understanding the why behind certain things. But we, we see nowadays, Chief, and I kind of want to see if this is similar to what you've seen in your department, in your region. But we see individuals sometimes. I'm not saying this is necessarily wrong. Right. Because there's, there's people with a ton of experience and ton of things that are on that you can't, you know, quantify or qualify. But some individuals will say, climb to the ranks or go through the career, you know, hitting minimum standards on everything, but not going out and chasing more experience. Not going, like, what do I need to promote to this next rank? Okay, I got it and I'm good. Versus, what are the promotional requirements? We'll say I got it, but then I'm going to go chase more because what's more important is not the requirement. What's more important is how am I developing myself in the avenues that I need because I'm continuously chasing experience, building myself up. Because the minimum is not good enough.
- [68:44]
A
First thing is you have to have a desire for it. Listen, is there any aspect of your life where you are minimum standards? I know there is. Mine. So that's why I say it's not for. Not. It's not for everyone. Like some of them. Like I tell guys, our contract, our union contract states the requirements for the ranks. People have their opinions, you should be a fireman. Longer do I think longer is good? I do. But our contract states it, so don't let that determine it. Right. So the contract states the minimum requirements. Right? It's what are you going to do with it? So I'll go back to jiu jitsu. My jiu jitsu coach says, listen, you put the time in on the mats and you put the time in here. I'm gonna give you your belts. So I'm a purple belt. He says, you will be the purple belt that you earn. So there's other purple belts that whoop my butt. There's blue belts with my butt. Right. But he's right. So it's. It's kind of like, what are you gonna be? You're gonna be the. You're gonna be the spouse that you're going to be. You're going to be the parent that you're going to be. You're going to be the. The leader that you want to be. If you're okay with that, then, you know, I can't force someone to be better if they don't want to be better. Like based on what they're meeting the minimum. So that's just where we struggle is maybe your high performers. Why isn't everyone high perform, bro? You're not high performer in every part of your life either. So it's kind of like, hey, they're meeting the part. Help them be a little bit better version of themselves. And it is what it is. You just kind of accept how it, how it happens then. So first you have to have a desire. If you have a desire, then go out and do it. You know, me and you aren't like everyone else, and everyone else isn't like, you know what I mean? I mean, me and you weren't even like each other, right?
- [70:10]
B
Agree. Agree.
- [70:11]
A
That's what. That's what. That's why the whole team thing comes in because everyone brings something to the table. You're like, oh, cool. It's when we think that we're the best and everyone's got to be like us. I think is, is a, is just as bad as being toxic.
- [70:23]
B
Yep, agreed.
- [70:24]
A
So it goes back to if you want, if you have interest in it, you know, So I, I got a, a co worker. I consider them a friend. And he got hurt really bad at a fire long time ago in the icu. And if anyone could have left his job, it would have been him. And he didn't came back. He's got a great attitude.
- [70:51]
B
He's.
- [70:51]
A
He's happy in the position he's in. He does a good job when he's there. He doesn't want to go any higher. He's good. But when he told, he shared that with me. It was years later. He was, listen, man, I just think it's dumb to come into work and not want to do your job. He's like, I'm going to do my job. I don't want to do anymore. Not going to be here any extra. I'm not going to put in more. Right. You got to respect that. You know what I mean? There's other aspects of his life that he's going to put in more than he, He's a better husband, father, whatever, so. And I share that because this is what you're interested in. Cool, man. But don't expect everyone, everyone's got different desires, wants. I'm at a different point in my career. You know, I focus on more developing the next group because of my anticipation to leave. I don't, I don't think I should be teaching our recruit school because I'm not doing it anymore. So I trained my successors and they run what I used to teach, you know, and I let go. Does that make sense? Like, yes. Training part. I don't want to put my time and effort towards our training field. Right. The guys are doing, are doing a great job. But someone got said to me every day, hey, why don't you out there? Like, it's not my thing. I have my job and responsibilities and I do that. But it's, it's that thinking that, well, if I'm doing this, everyone should. No, that's, no, that's what you want to be doing.
- [72:05]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [72:07]
A
So if you keep that, I think that's a little bit healthier aspect. You know what I mean?
- [72:13]
B
I do, I do. And letting go is, is key. Said that because I was a former training officer too, and you know, I, you know, I teach academies and I'm like, oh, they should have been doing this. But it's not me anymore. I. I struggle with that. Just, you know, I, I'm not, not lying. Like I see inefficiencies and stuff, but it's just not me anymore. It's not my role. It's not what I aspire anymore. So I gotta let go. I mean, support the next people, support them, obviously answer questions. But yeah, letting go is, is also a leadership trait, I believe. Right. Like knowing when to let go and knowing when to just go and support the people behind you. All right. We talked so much, Chief, and we talked about, you know, resources and stuff like that. I always like to ask this question. Right. Because people can go out and do this right now if they wanted to too. Well, in addition to everything else we talked about, what's your favorite book reading article?
- [72:54]
A
Something Leadership Man. So I can't remember the title. I think I sent it to you.
- [72:59]
B
Tell me about the map.
- [73:00]
A
So the map. Map is a new one? Yeah.
- [73:02]
B
I've never heard of it.
- [73:06]
A
Listen, before that, the one that got me started being better was Step up and Lee by Frank Viscuso. But the map, I've always been interested in human behavior. Why are we the way we are? Why do we react? The map has opened my eyes to the truth, I guess. You know, like, if I'm upset at you, someone else, they didn't do that. It's something inside me coming out.
- [73:31]
B
Yeah.
- [73:32]
A
And this guy was, I just, I gotta get off some social media because I always wanted to buy stuff. Anytime I was on it, I'm like, oh, this is, this isn't healthy. You know what I mean?
- [73:40]
B
Yeah.
- [73:41]
A
So the guy's got a pretty active Instagram. I can't remember the author's name, but I highly recommend it because it really, it doesn't matter how old you are. Like, when my kids are old enough to understand stuff, I'm going to give to them to read because it really helps you understand human behavior.
- [73:56]
B
Love it.
- [73:56]
A
And if you're triggered, it's you. It's not the other person. It's. It's showing something in you you got to work on. It just helps you understand human behavior more and how to navigate life better. Like, you know, in this country. And I say that because I've got, I got some co workers that are from. Born in other countries. And I always like, yeah, I used to, I traveled in my single days. And I'm like, man, this place is so different. I like this aspect. I like that. And. But in our country, it's very hustle, hustle, hustle. You gotta, you gotta get status, you gotta get money, you gotta buy stuff you don't need. And that's a American culture. And in others, it's slower pace. It's just do your thing. And like I said, I want to buy less now that I got rid of my Instagram because I'm like, man, I just always wanted to buy stuff. And I'm like, this is silly. I don't need it, you know? But I think that's a culture we have. It's a program because of ads.
- [74:54]
B
Yes.
- [74:55]
A
And you're constantly subjected to that. Like, it's proven. You see something seven times, you're gonna go buy it. Like, there's a science behind. You know, when I, when I launched my book, there was a, there was a science behind selling it at the time and doing everything I was doing. Like, we are trainable, we are conditioned as people. So this book kind of opens the curtain and you're like, oh, that's why that happens. That's why I have some of the thoughts I do. That's why I think yelling and screaming at someone is just as bad as hitting. Right. It's. It's. You're subjecting them to stuff, right. And you're yelling, screaming. That's something you got. You're not being heard. And that's why you're acting that way instead of being productive with it, which goes back to you, communication, all that stuff. I'd recommend that to everyone and read it with an open mind. Or.
- [75:40]
B
Open mind. Yeah.
- [75:41]
A
Because it is going to contradict a lot of stuff that you think is true.
- [75:45]
B
I love it. Well, the map is by David Diane Fisher. I believe the navigation and translation to life and human experience. That's obviously the one. Great. I see it on Amazon now. I always, I always joke, your chief, that after the recommendation, the Amazon stock goes up at that very moment because hopefully listeners are buying. But I love it. Thank you for that because again, sharing. We talked about sharing knowledge, sharing experience. This is the book that you resonated with. I'm going to buy it and sw. It's all about. So thank you, chief. Well, with the name of the show being the Kitchen Table Chief, I can't let you go without you sharing one of your. If you could think of one, one of your most fond kitchen table conversations, influential leadership. Anything you'd like to share kind of before we close A little bit.
- [76:27]
A
And this is a tough one because nothing pops up because there's been so many appropriate and Inappropriate.
- [76:34]
B
That's right. That's right.
- [76:36]
A
I still really have nothing. It's just.
- [76:38]
B
Okay, all right.
- [76:39]
A
Use that opportunity to just. People are listening. People are listening. So make sure you're sharing something positive where they can learn from it. Because we, we lease our spots at the firehouse in life, like, want to live forever, right? So, you know, share something that they'll learn from. And I wish something could pop up because, man, there's so many. But nothing just resonates that much.
- [77:07]
B
But that's, that's, that's it right there, Chief. I mean, you think you said it right. There is regardless the story of the conversation, just remember that people are listening. Make it positive, optimistic. Right? That's key because how many times have we seen. Because we know how powerful the. The kitchen table is, right?
- [77:21]
A
You.
- [77:21]
B
You throw negativity around. Negativity is reality now. Because you said it. Because four people are agreeing with you. So I like what you said there. Just everyone's listening. Keep it positive. I mean, that's good enough, right? I mean, that's good enough. All right, well, I just want to say thank you again, Chief, for spending the last 90 minutes with us today. Obviously, we're here because Chief D.J. stone shared your contact information because he said you got to reach out to Chief Lovato Jr. He's going to be an awesome guest. Thank you. Because it's been a couple months since we connected. I appreciate you taking the time out of your day on that beautiful day out there in Florida. But with that, we get to end the episode with furthering the conversation and reach outs with the leadership challenge. Is there someone else out there that you would like to challenge for us to reach out to?
- [78:05]
A
I think a good resource is a former fire chief of mine, Trenton Bowen. He's retired a few years now, but he was. You didn't realize how wise he was until later on. Like, just the way he talked to people and treated people. Like, he was definitely a very influential person to me and I still talk to. To this dad Random at a baseball game a month ago, and he has a very good reputation from the boots on the street, and I don't be able to get a hold of them, but yeah, yeah, he's a good one.
- [78:42]
B
Absolutely. Well, thank you so much. And yeah, we'll always try. And if he's available and willing, that'd be awesome. To add another perspective onto the kitchen table. So thank you so much. Cheat. We'll do a reach out. So with that being said before we close, how do we find Chief Lovato Jr. In the future, obviously we've got your book and then the John Lovato Jr. Show. I haven't seen any new.
- [79:00]
A
Yeah, no, I kind of stepped back. Like I kind of talked earlier about trying to slow stuff down. Yeah. Be more present when I'm home. It was just, I didn't, I didn't care for all the pressure. I'm trying to keep producing, producing, producing. But I, I did keep my one website, my name, john lovato.com where people want to. Any question you need something, reach out, email. It's got resources to the books. It's got resources to the. I have a year long training plan. I made somebody that's some structure. The resources are there for people if they want them. So I'm going to keep that going for now. I kind of just stepped back from a lot of other stuff because it was just, it was consuming me too much.
- [79:41]
B
All right, well, thank you for that also. So John lovato.com is brotherhoodcoaching.com he's got the book fix your firehouse. Seven strategies that produce a winning team. The John Lovato show is still available on major podcast outlets. Got a bunch of episodes on there. So even though you're not currently making still out there or not, it's all, it's still there. It's still there. And I, I, I listen to a bunch of them. A lot of them are short, a lot shorter than, than this episode. So a lot where people can just grab on to, hey, I'm gonna listen to this one or this five today. So there's a lot out there. So thank you so much. Before we officially close, Chief, what are your lasting leadership thoughts you'd like to leave our listeners with?
- [80:21]
A
Just don't be a dick. Yeah, I just said, one guy told me, he's like, listen, just come at people with an understanding and trying to figure out why they made the decision they did and help guide them there. When people are angry or throw anger at us or whatever, we shut down and that's not producing anything. You know, you're winning or you're learning.
- [80:43]
B
Winning or you're learning. That's that, that's going to be, that's going to resonate. I heard you say that about three times. You're either you're waiting or you're learning. Learn or you're winning. All right, thank you for tuning in today to the kitchen table. We truly hope you found this time valuable and we hope we've inspired you to take action to lead and to spread the leadership conversation. Till next time, be safe, be intentional, stay curious.