← Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table 
Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table
Ep. 74: Justin Grimes, Fire Chief - Relationships
01:11:03
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Justin Grimes
When someone walks in the door, a new firefighter, that first year will benefit you the next 20. When I first started, there was a crew and they had a firefighter that they were just like, yeah, this guy's no good. He stinks. You know, whatever. I'm like, well, what did you do with him? You didn't do anything with him. So he's a product of you. He isn't that great because you guys didn't put anything into him. So you put that energy into him. That's a dividend that will just pay and pay and pay and pay again. So. And then it's kind of like having them get sucked into that culture, right? That culture of relationships and alignment and all that kind of stuff. So get your own opinions on people, develop your own relationships. Then, like I said, then we try to mentor them. You know, not everyone has the same level of talent, but everyone can work hard.
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Unknown Host
The First Responder Liaison Network is proud to present to you the Kitchen Table podcast. Join us as we explore leadership from perspectives around the globe.
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Justin Grimes
From firefighters to fire Chiefs, civilians to.
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Unknown Host
CEOs.
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Justin Grimes
Our conversations have one simple goal.
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Unknown Host
Build more leaders. All right, good afternoon and welcome to episode 74 of the Kitchen Table. Today we're right back in Florida as we have Fire Chief Justin Grimes on the show. And today's theme is relationships, Developing them and creating them. Fire Chief Justin Grimes is a 19 year member of the Cocoa Beach Fire Department with 22 years in the fire service. Justin started his career in 2003 at Brevard County Fire and Rescue. Before joining the Cocoa Beach Fire Department, Chief Grimes also serves as the city's Emergency Management Coordinator. He holds a Bachelor's degree from Barrier University in Public Administration and an Associates in Fire Science from Eastern Florida State College. Chief Grimes also holds the rank of Chief at the Eastern Florida State College Fire Academy, where he has been an instructor for the minimum standards, technical, rescue, and continuing education since 2011. Good afternoon, Chief. Thanks for being a guest today. How are you?
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Justin Grimes
Good. How are you doing?
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Unknown Host
I'm doing well, thank you so much. So let's ice break with this working out. When I did a podcast with Chief Lee, I said to him, I never seen a chief that was so jacked, that was so in shape. And you know what his response was? He said, you should see my chief. So here we are. Chief Lee said that you and him are big fitness enthusiasts. But of course, right? This is the fire service, so of course. But let's ice break with that, talk about why you and Chief Lee and I'M sure most of you, if not everyone at Cocoa Beach Fire Department is, you know, is well into fitness and why it's so paramount to you all in your culture and at Cocoa Beach Fire Department?
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Justin Grimes
Absolutely. You know, I think it's one of the foundational points of the fire service. And I think that any person who's not involved in the fire service, any citizen, residential visitor, they all understand and believe that fitness is a part of the fire service. So, you know, I was always into working out since high school, lifting. And it's funny how exercise has kind of changed in these last 25 years with CrossFit and cross training and things have really changed. So I was always big into weightlifting. I ran and did some other type of things like that for cardiovascular, elliptical, all that sort of stuff. But, you know, it was kind of a meathead in the gym, throwing the weights around and stuff. And, you know, you find some, some things that, that limits you on. You know, we're on the beach here, so when you surf or you're out there swimming, you get this major lap pump and arm pump, which, which you kind of realize that, you know, maybe I need to add some more functional fitness in. So always we're always doing air consumption. These guys, your air consumption drills, I try to get down there with them every so often and do some of them and try to stay on top of that. But yeah, fitness obviously is the foundation of it all. Like, if it doesn't matter how good you are on scene, if you don't have the foundation to actually see it through, then, you know, you're never going to be able to accomplish the task at a high level. So, you know, I know it, IT departments. It's funny, years ago when I would, you know, exercise or I'd be drinking a protein shake, I'd always hear from some of the older guys, oh, what's that snake oil you're drinking? Why are you wasting your time in there? You know, and it's changed so much now to where the guys that don't work out, the guys are like, what are you doing, man? Like, this is the foundation of the fire service. Like, you need to be in shape in order to do the job. You know, today I don't know how it is where you're at, but down here in Florida, it's, It's in the low 90s, 100 humidity. You put your bunker gear on for, for one MVC or a fire alarm or, you know, a working time, whatever it may be, man, you're going to be Worked so that fitness has to be the foundation. And I'm glad to see that it's turned the way it has to where people are embracing it versus when I kind of came in the fire service, it definitely wasn't embraced by all. There were some, but a lot of them just looked down on it and thought you were wasting your time.
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Unknown Host
Yeah.
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Justin Grimes
So at least in this region we're in.
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Unknown Host
Well, it actually, ironically enough, Seattle is it known necessarily for its, for its year round good weather, but actually today is going to be nearly 90 degrees. I'm with you there. Right. The most simplest calls, you can now just be taxed that much more because of the weather, the humidity and all the above. So let alone something where you're actually going to be taxed, you know, you got to be in shape. Well, one thing you mentioned is sometimes you said that when the crews are down there doing their drills, air consumption drills, you'll get down there with them. So you're a fire chief, you don't see too often the fire chiefs going down there with the crews, putting their gear on and doing the full on drills. Talk about why you do that.
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Justin Grimes
So I did it a couple weeks ago. 1. The first thing is I think we all need to be humbled. Right. I know Chief Lee mentioned this. I say this all the time. Like as a fire chief, I know we have an important role, but truly we don't need to exist. Right. When people call 91 1, they want fire apparatus with people that are in shape that can help solve their problems, help their medical issues, whatever it may be, they don't say, hey, send me a fire chief and a staff assistant. You know, they have to exist, we don't. So I have to always kind of put myself back into their place, understand what are their needs and what are they facing, you know, so when things change and there's opportunities to make things better, to make the job, whether it's just more efficient or make them be able to do things better because of the challenges they have. I think sometimes it's important for me to still realize that, you know, I used to have this thing and it's, it's kind of changed a little bit, especially as I'm approaching in my, my 50s now. I used to always say I'm always. My goal was for them to be better than me. So for many years I was that the guy that would be like, all right, I'm gonna give everything I have and I will not let you beat me. But the day you beat me will be the Happiest day for me, because now I know where the weak link is. It's me, and I can improve on that. Right. So I would always say joke with them. Like, if we're going to do it, I'm going first. Like, so we all went to Swift Water, and we had to, like, kind of go over a waterfall. I'm always like, I'm going first. You know, that way, if something happens to me, at least there's a promotion. Right. So I was like, but no, I always want to do that. Now it is interesting because the level these. These guys and girls are getting at, it's important for me just to try to keep up, because the days of me being the one that's going to try to beat them, it's getting harder and harder to do. So it's. It's good to understand what they're facing. It's good to be humbled every so often, you know, and obviously, it's good for morale. You know, when the guys have the fire chief down there throwing ladders with them, pulling lines with them, putting the gear on, sweating when it's, you know, 92 degrees, you know, they know that I still understand what they have to do. And I'm not just up here because, you know, as I. As I've moved up, you realize how much more you are stuck in a chair, looking at a computer, going to meetings, and it really, really changes that, the aspect of the job. But for me, I love getting back down there because that is what I signed up for. Somehow you find yourself in these positions. This is not where I necessarily ever thought it would be, but I did think I'd be doing that with those guys, you know.
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Unknown Host
Yeah.
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Justin Grimes
And that's something that I missed, but I think is important to continue to do.
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Unknown Host
Yeah. So a question that I have is. Because that's. That's phenomenal. Right. Because I. I imagine a fire department that had all the ranks, all the way up from firefighter to chief, that had that mindset. Right. So a question that I have is, did your leadership display that for you as you went up the ranks, or was this something that Chief Grimes said? This is what's important to me, and I'm going to display this at every rank that I'm at. And now that I am the fire chief, I'm going to continue that.
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Justin Grimes
It would be number two. Yeah. That we didn't have chiefs that really did that stuff with us. But I always thought about, like, what's the type of chief I would want to have? I would Want to have the chief that's out there throwing his gear on, the one that wants to, you know, be elbow deep in the crap with them, you know, and, like, understand what's going on. And we'll be the first one to say, hey, you know, this is what we got to do. I'll put my life on the line with you guys right next to you. Because, you know, you see, after a while, it's like chiefs kind of like I said before, they're. They're at meetings, they're at city hall, and, you know, you can kind of become detached, and you got to try your best not to become detached. So, yeah, 100, man. I think that that's just such an important thing to continue to try to do. And I, I. My hope is that the next generation we're raising, and I could tell you right now they're right on, on par. They'll be doing it a lot more than I am, is. That's something that I ran with and I want to see carried on to the next couple generations. And right now, like I said, it is definitely on. On pace to be that way.
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Unknown Host
Yeah.
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Justin Grimes
If not more.
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Unknown Host
What would the fire department look like? Your fire department, or all fire departments across the country, adopted that exact mindset where all the ranks, always, from firefighter to fire chief, they all had the mindset of the philosophy of, I'm training the person behind me to be better than me. And then, so as the years progress, all of those firefighters became the officers that were better than their officers, and then they became chief officers who succeeded, those that trained them, and all the way up to the chief, like, what would we look like? How great would that be?
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Justin Grimes
That's. That. Is that ultimately the goal, right? The goal of progress. And, you know, I think about that all the time, and it's. It's a hard ego hit, too, right, because there's. You'll see leaders that, that hold people down because they don't want to get passed up. And so I have one of our great guys here, and, you know, he moved into a higher leadership role. Not Chief Lee, but another one. And I said, hey, man, one of the things you're going to have to learn to do, which is going to be really, really hard, is you're going to have to step back a little bit and continue to embrace what they're doing, and sooner or later, they're going to pass you up in some of these skills, and that should be the best day of your life. You know, that should be. You've done what you, you've done, what you've set out to do as a leader, you have made them better, and now they're better than you. And now you just got to continue to feed them, give them the resources they need to continue to get better. Because ultimately that's, you know, in a leadership, I feel like that's what you're here to do. A lot of it is to make that next group better.
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Unknown Host
Absolutely. And we're going to dive into that, too. So I love that philosophy. I hear a lot of, like, coaching, you know, in your voice. I hear a lot of mentoring. So we'll dive into that in just a second. I just want to mention that today's thought talking points and today's theme, I should say, is about relationships. And I love that because I believe that, you know, perhaps the best part of the best aspect of the fire service is a relationship that we foster and build throughout our, you know, long career, whether it be 25, 30 years. You had talked about firefighter led and chief led as we talk about leadership and we talk about relationships. So first of all, talk about why relationships is so important and then talk about that, that concept of firefighter led and chief led. What does that mean?
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Justin Grimes
So, you know, I, I, you say coaching like, I, I stole that 100% from a football coach, the Florida State's coach. He's always a player led and coach fed, right? So, and that's kind of what we do. And I really thought about him, like, so I tell the guys all the time, you know, when, when we're sitting down, we do committees and things like that. We're having a committee meeting, and I'm like, it's your guys, fire department, man. I'm, I'm not, I'm gonna veto things that don't make sense or don't support the mission or the culture. But if you have a great idea, man, the best idea wins. And that's what we're going to run with. So the idea with the relationships is I always kind of, when someone walks in the door, we embrace them. So when I say that is we don't spoil them. We don't, you know, build up their ego. We do all the things, you know, we, we work them hard, we PT the, the crap out of them. We make them earn it, but we embrace them. And we embrace them. To say, like I said earlier is we want to make you the best firefighter that you can be as fast as possible. Obviously, experience and time are things that we cannot control. Those things are outside of Our limits. But we want to pour everything we have into you. And kind of like you and I spoke about a little bit earlier with training and things like that, that training and coaching kind of becomes a leadership concept. You don't even realize you're doing it and you find yourself in a leadership role. So when they walk in the door, I just always have tried to embrace and get to know the people. Because when we build those relationships with them. Right. You can get them. They can do things they didn't even know they were capable of. Right. You can be challenging, you can be demanding. And because they know that they trust you and that you're doing the right thing for them, you can just really push their limits. And you know, I always start with building that trust. Right. Is. Yeah. One of the quite we talked about is kind of doing the right thing. So we start. It's going to take some time to build that foundation of trust of doing the right thing, making sure you're doing everything and being selfless and putting some things before you to better them. And once you get that trust, you get that relationship built, then we start talking about alignment. Alignment is one of the most important things to me when we're aligned. From sometimes you can't always control things like politicians and city managers, mayors and things like that. But from the fire department standpoint, from the chief all the way down to the probationary firefighter, when there's an alignment in place of thinking because of relationships, I feel like there's nothing that we really can't do. And so that's kind of. I always say, if I'm watching your back and you're watching the guy next to you is back and they're watching the guy next to him, if we're all watching each other's back, you never got to worry about your back. And it's kind of that team mentality. Yeah, right.
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Unknown Host
Absolutely. You said the best idea always wins or the best idea should win.
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Justin Grimes
Yes.
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Unknown Host
We don't always see that though. Right. Sometimes we see. You talked about ego earlier, you talked about humor. You got to have some humility up and down the ranks. So I do agree with that. I mean, the best idea should win because the best idea is what's going to propel us into the direction that we want to be or to solve the problem in the best way. But the best idea don't always win. How do we get to that space where we're embracing that the best idea wins? Because sometimes I'll just throw it out there. The idea from the Rank wins.
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Justin Grimes
You know, I. I think it's obviously harder depending on the situation, but if the culture is in place to where that is the mindset. Right. Because you, you and I can both agree it could be the best idea from a person that no one wants to hear from. Right. And they're like, ah, you know, screw that guy. Like, it's because it's coming from that person, you know. So I think, I think as leaders sometimes, you know, I talked about it and chiefly did is, you know, when we have new firefighters or. Or within our organization, it's. It's trust, it's empowerment and collaboration. Right. Those are the three things we embrace. And so when we bring them in and we sit with this idea, maybe it's not the most popular person. And we have to take that idea. We got to run it through the field. We got to make sure it's embraced. We got to make sure that it's something that makes sense for the culture and for the organization. If it doesn't make sense for the mission, the culture and organization, then we're not going to support it. But let's say it does, then it's important for us to empower that person or empower that idea, support it. And then of course, here's the most important thing, is it could be the greatest idea, but the implementation is terrible.
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Unknown Host
Yeah.
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Justin Grimes
Then it's gonna fall flat. So then we really got to work on the training and implementation. Some things don't need training. Some things are just a mindset change, you know, But I been very open to that stuff because, you know, when I came to the department I'm at now, man, you know, I love it, but we were running like it was 1970s. Right. So some of the things just didn't make sense. And I'm sure you it's had to have happened on your podcast. Well, it's the way we've always done it, you know, and then one would stop and take time and, and get outside to see, well, maybe there's other ways that this can be done better. So we've probably spent the last 15 years really changing that mindset, changing the way we do things, embracing a different type of culture. But, yeah, you're 100% the best idea should win, but it always doesn't. You know, I think it's. It's our. Some of our jobs as leaders to try to make sure that happens, but it's not always a guarantee.
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Unknown Host
I love the quote that you said play. It was a player led coach fed. Is that what it Was.
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Justin Grimes
Yeah, yeah. That came from Mike Norvell from the Florida State Seminole.
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Unknown Host
Yes, that's right.
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Justin Grimes
We adapted it to firefooter led.
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Unknown Host
So that's. I, I love that. And so we talked earlier offline about, you know, sometimes we find ourselves in leadership roles based on the things that we've accomplished, based on the things that we've done, based on informal leading in the department and so on and so forth. So my question is how, how like in your department, we'll say, for example, and we talked with chiefly a little bit about this is how do we get people in that place where, you know, we got the firefighters leading? So I guess the question is, I'll just ask. The question is, can firefighters lead chiefs?
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Justin Grimes
Yeah, that's a great question. Right. So I would say yes and no. Obviously, we know there's some egos that will just not handle that right there. You're not going to necessarily have a firefighter directly.
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Unknown Host
Right.
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Justin Grimes
Tell a chief what to do. But I think what can happen that firefighter. So all the best organizations, teams, whatever, they have leadership at every level.
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Unknown Host
Yes.
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Justin Grimes
Right. It's not like they always say a good team can have a great coach, but no leadership at the, so we need to have leaders at the firefighter level, company officer level, at the district level, you know, all those different things. So those firefighters sometimes, you know, can make some real, real quality change, whether it's a mindset, whether it's embracing fitness or, or changing a tactic or whatever it may be. And then what happens is once they get that buy in from all those other firefighters and then maybe some buy in from some officers, next thing you know that that chief may have embraced that leadership from that firefighter without even knowing it. They've like steered them, you know, it's, it's agreed, slow process and it takes some time. But I do think that that's something that's really awesome is that you can kind of help lead some without actually leading them, you know, going back to.
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Unknown Host
You know, the best idea always wins, we see. And oftentimes, you know, firefighters, company officers, you know, those that are what just say maybe less tenured, less rank in the room, have great ideas. Yeah. At some point, those below you will be. Will surpass you. And that's the goal. And I'm already seeing it now, like I'm, I'm a captain now. I've been a company officer going on five years now. And the firefighter fundamentals, even though I know all of them and I'm great at them, I'm Starting to see the young firefighters do things faster than me, better than me, and it's like, next level still. Yeah. And at first I'm like, wait, no. But then now it's like, well, no. Yes. Because, like, taking hydrants and, you know, throwing ladders. Like, I should know all of it, but I shouldn't necessarily be the best at it. Going with the, you know, can firefighters lead chiefs? And that was just an example. Firefighters can lead all the way up the ranks in many avenues. And so, yeah, not necessarily about going down the path of giving direct orders, but, yes, they can be great at things. They could have great ideas. They could have the best ideas at times, and they will be better than others at certain things. And we just have to know that we have to embrace that, and that's okay. And that's actually a sign that. That they. If they are starting to have kind of the better ideas in the room, they are starting to be, you know, highly competent in these areas. That's a sign of, like, success.
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Justin Grimes
Yes. It's happening.
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Unknown Host
Oh, it's happening. Exactly. Yeah. See, that's a great way to put it. The progression is happening.
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Justin Grimes
Ropes are a great one. Right. So, like, I've been doing ropes for, you know, since the mid-2000s, I guess you would say. And, you know, it's evolved so much. That's one of the things that's really evolved so much. And. And, you know, you get used to doing it a certain way. You're teaching it a certain way. Firefighter comes back, hey, got this new piece of equipment, and you're like, I don't want to embrace that, man. I know this way. I don't want to learn it this other way. You finally embrace it, and you go, man, what was I missing? Right? So these firefighters, they'll bring in this new stuff, they'll bring in these new ideas, and next thing you know, man, it's way faster, it's way more efficient. It's way safer, you know, and like I said, it's a way of leading that they don't necessarily even know know that they're leading. And maybe a chief will embrace that and go, you know what? This guy's got a great idea, or this girl came up with something that I never thought we'd see in our. Our lifetime of the fire service.
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Unknown Host
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So with that being said, let's go to this, because what is. What would you say is the one leadership trait if I had that? You feel that strong fire service leaders.
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Justin Grimes
Must possess one of the things that we Tend to see. And we all know it is. You'll see like a one way, you know, a guy, it's all about me. I, I So I think in order to truly lead, right, you gotta be selfless. You gotta put the people below you in front of you. And you know, I've seen you had Mike Destefano on. It's funny. It's something we've always done. He was at our fire station for a while too, when he worked for another department. But is that we always made sure. I always was like, hey man, these guys are the ones running the calls. I'll get dinner last. You know, let me go last. He's preached things like that, but those were things that we were already kind of doing right. So we always got to put them first. And I think if we put them first and put their success first. Yeah, you've heard that thing. If you, if you take care of the little things.
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Unknown Host
Yeah.
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Justin Grimes
Take care of themselves. Y I think it's that kind of stuff. If you embrace them, if you give them the tools that they need and you make sure that they're always at the forefront, man, they're going to take care of you.
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Unknown Host
Yeah.
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Justin Grimes
And I feel like that's the really the way. So selflessness sometimes comes across short at the beginning, but the long term payoff is just, you know, infinite because there'll be people there that have your back and will will help you in your time and need because you constantly did that for them.
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Unknown Host
Put people below you in front of you. I love that.
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Justin Grimes
Yeah, man. There's such a, a great idea with that, you know, and, and that is that everyone is better than you at some something. And they always say a judge of character is the way you treat someone that can do nothing for you.
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Unknown Host
Yes.
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Justin Grimes
So you'll see some of these guys, you know, they get into a leadership role and then they kind of. I've seen some where they'll like talk down to their firefighter, what are you doing, man? Like, this is the last thing you should be doing. You should be pumping them up now. You got to make sure there's expectations and they know the chain of command and stuff. But you don't need to talk down to them. They, they probably are better at something than you will ever be. And there's something you can learn from them. You know, there's always an opportunity to learn, you know. So yeah, I 100 think that, that that kind of pays the long term dividends.
- [24:36]
Unknown Host
So here's a question. As a fire chief or say A deputy or a battalion chief, even the training division, even of a fire department. How does, I'm curious, in your department as well. But how do fire departments train their leaders, their current ones and the upcoming ones, to possess characteristics or traits such as selflessness. Put others before you, mentor others so they become better than you. But how do we instill that in our leaders? Because a lot of this stuff is, I don't even want to say innate traits, right? Because, you know, I don't. I. Yes, there are some abilities and traits that people just naturally are gifted at. And I'm not saying natural born leaders. I mean, I guess there can be, but leadership traits can be learned and practiced and then we can become great leaders. But some individuals will get there later. We'll say in life or later in their, in their careers. But how do we get in a place where we're helping others become these great leaders earlier in their career? So when they step into, say, former roles as an officer or chief officer, they now have and possess these traits like selflessness or other. How do we, how do we get there?
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Justin Grimes
You know, that that's a good thing. A really good question is that this, it never existed in the fire service. I feel like as I came up, there was no, like formal leadership training, right? And I do think some of it has to be on that individual. Like you're, you're taking the Bugles, you're taking the promotion. That means that you're going to be leading people. Your job is to make sure that they get home safe. Your job is to make sure that they get better. You know, and the only way you can do that is to really kind of do some, some learning like how, how do. That's why when you ask the book, I'm sure you'll talk about it. Like a great book is, is how to win friends and influence people. You know, you really got to figure out on your own what's the, the best way now we need to embrace formal leadership training. And I listen to some of your podcast and I saw that there's a lot of departments that are doing that. And it's something we started doing. You know, we did an officers academy. I actually, I brought the book out. We, I gave everyone this black and red professional book, right? And it has, you know, some inspirational quotes in it. But the most important thing is it has 96 pages that are completely blank. And I told him, I look, what you guys should do to start is just write down your core values, like this is going to be your decision making. Process. These are things you're not going to bend on. Right. Write down your core values. Then start writing down all the things that you see that you like if you were in a leadership role and all the things you would never do. Because we all know, we learn just as much like, man, I'll never do what that guy did. That's wrong. So write all those things down and start developing your leadership style. One thing that's really good about a large department is you get an opportunity of so many different leaders and learn from so many different people. And with the smaller organizations like I'm in now, you don't have as much opportunity there. But there's still you go out and you. And you learn. So we started doing this and I tell them, I know like every December I do like I call my, my personal reflection month, you know, where I sit down and go, how far did I stray from my core values? Why was it out of necessity? Was I just being lazy? You know, do I need to. Because there's changes within the organization. So I will go back through and look at those. And I told the guys to do the same thing. You need to take a month where you just need to do some reflection. But what we did do is we brought in an outside as well on leadership. And this guy was great. I'll give you his information. Then if he's another great guy to reach out to. Absolutely kind of re helped with even me like just saying, because I sat in, it was for our new officers. I'm excited to sit in on this, you know, and just listening to books and some different ideas and some of the things that we already embraced. So I think it's important that we probably need to do a formal leadership training because, man, you know, we always, we kind of joke about it here, but you can make a 15 year wrong decision.
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Unknown Host
Yes.
- [28:39]
Justin Grimes
If you promote the wrong person. So you really got to make sure that the intention is right, the reasoning for promotion is right. I mean, I've sat down with the guys like, why do you want to promote? Well, I've been here a while and I want to raise, well, man, that if you haven't even thought about the responsibility you're about to take on and what, what's being the keys that are being given to you. I don't know that you're ready to promote. You know, I mean, I don't think any of us are truly ever ready to promote. It feels like. But, but the leadership role, right?
- [29:07]
Unknown Host
Yeah.
- [29:08]
Justin Grimes
Leadership role is that thing, thing that when people are Just talking about money and being here a while, you really thought through what you're getting ready to do.
- [29:16]
Unknown Host
The reflection piece. I love this because you said in December you reflect about, you know what across the whole calendar year we'll say about did you veer from your, you know, your core values from what your goals and what you wanted to do. So with that being said, as we continue to talk leadership traits we talked about hard skills are there, right? We know we're training our people in command and tactics and firefighter fundamentals and ems, rope, rescue, swift water, all that we. But as we talk about things that we know we should be developing in leadership development, soft skills of leadership, for example self awareness, emotional regulation, empathy, conflict resolution, resolution. You already talked about reflection which as we know is a super important trait in a leader. But of those four, self awareness, emotional regulation, empathy and conflict resolution, what, what resonates with you the most?
- [30:05]
Justin Grimes
So it's kind of, it's kind of crazy because I feel like all those are really tied together pretty closely. I, I know emotional regulation and empathy, right? Those are some of the things I think just you, you almost can't separate them in certain ways because I've, I, I've said this, I've watched an office or a firefighter lose it and just treat people poorly and don't understand the collateral long term damage they've done because they couldn't regulate themselves emotionally. And the same thing happens at a call. You know, it could be at the station or at a call. No one wants to be with a, an officer or that it is so hyped up they can't understand and they're kind of losing their mind and losing track of what's going on scene. But the same thing happens around the station too. You know, if you have a person that treats people awful, just pops off snaps at any moment, they don't have the ability to control themselves. Now this is a personal opinion for me but you know, we all are human and we all have our moments but that for me is a real sign of weakness when you cannot control your own emotions. So, and then I think it's really important to try to put yourself, as I said earlier with doing the, doing the training with the guys, it's same, same thing when it comes to, to empathy with where they're at emotionally is where is this person sitting? I, I'd love to say things are black and white, but they're not. There's a lot of gray. Treating everyone the same isn't always necessarily treating everyone fairly. Right. So I think that we have to be able to understand where they're coming from, the situation. It takes a lot more work, man. You know, if it's just the code book and it says this, this is what you're going to do. Yeah, that's the easy way out. You know, I think, I think that you got it, you got to empathize and you got to regulate your, your own emotions. Otherwise you can't have real conversations with people and everyone's just yelling at each other.
- [32:01]
Unknown Host
Agreed. How does that, how does that take place in your department? Right. So when, when conversations happen at the kitchen table or in a meeting or whatever, and you start talking about emotional intelligence, you talk about empathy, you start talking about, you know, emotions and reflection. They're not necessarily the most intriguing topics. In a room of a bunch of 20, 25, 30 year firefighters or company officers or chief officers, a lot of people like, turn the other way, like, what are we doing? Like, like, why am I here? Right. So it's not necessarily the most, the, the sexiest topic to talk about in a meeting. Right. So how do these conversations take place in, like, are they embraced by many? And if not, how can we, you know, how do we get to the point where these are normal conversations?
- [32:44]
Justin Grimes
Yeah. So, you know, I think what we're trying to do, and I think I touched on a little bit with, with the relationships and, and getting alignment is, you know, we do rely a lot, I think, on our company officers to, to kind of work out some of those issues. Is it formalized? No. And that's something that we can work on for sure. But, but we do talk to them about it all the time about the same exact topics we talked about. You got to put yourself in their shoes sometimes. You still got to understand the rules. You still got to be able to enforce the rules. How are, you know, like in the old days, like different ways of disciplining people isn't going to work the same with everyone. So you got to kind of figure out what makes them tick to make them understand they made a poor decision or understand how, like, you treated that person. Right. So we really try. I have a couple people that are really highly emotionally intelligent at our department, and I have some that aren't so much, you know, like everywhere. So. And, you know, the ones that just have it naturally are kind of easier to, to use them to help with some of the ones that don't have it as much. But I think it's that constant mentorship. So I think it starts when they Walk in the door. You know, we're, we're bringing firefighters and we're not just training to be firefighters. You know, we're bringing, you know, 18, 19 year old kids in sometimes. We're also raising them, you know. You know, some of them we had a guy never mowed a lawn until he worked for, you know, so some of the things that were just kind of different during our generation are different now. So we're kind of raising them and some of them don't have emotional regulation or understand these things. So we're kind of starting at that ground level. When they walk in the door with the company officers, I'd love to say we have it all worked out. You know, we all would love to say that, but it's still always going to be a work in progress. Yeah, but we really try to focus with the work with our, our company officers to help as soon as they step in the door. I kind of joke. So I wrote one of my notes. One of our officers has something called Man Monday. Right. So some of these guys didn't have skills. Like, you know, this guy is a welder, a fabricator, he's a carpenter. You know, he can do all these different things. So a lot of these guys just didn't have these skills. And they were. The cool thing about this generation is they want to learn. They're very excited about it. They just haven't had the opportunity. So he'd go out there and make them build things, take it apart, do things that they just never did before, you know, and that's some of that mentorship that kind of also plays into that next level, I feel like, of the emotional regulation, empathy and all those type of soft skills because they're kind of growing confidence in themselves that maybe they just didn't have.
- [35:22]
Unknown Host
Yeah.
- [35:22]
Justin Grimes
And we're using some of these leadership traits that some of these older guys have that they can kind of build into it. And then you kind of combination that with the type of culture we have. I feel like there's a little bit of, of understanding more in that world because at the end of the day, without the relationships, you know, that that's what's going to drive everything.
- [35:42]
Unknown Host
Yeah, absolutely. So mentorship, you met, you said the word. We always talk about mentorship at the firefighter level. You know, the new firefighters, probationary firefighters, recruits even. But how about the company officer in the chief ranks? Like, is there mentorship happening at the chief officer level? Like from deputy to battalion or battalion to captain? We'll say yeah.
- [36:00]
Justin Grimes
So that, that's that's another interesting one because, you know, I have two battalion chiefs that have been here longer than I have. So, you know, we've kind of mentored each other along the ways. I. Our deputy chief, Chief Lee, him and I worked at a previous department together on an engine company together. So we've, we kind of have the same alignment and thinking anyway, so we're constantly trying to better each other. And then one of our newest battalion chiefs, he was one of my firefighters out of his first fire, you know, helped him through classes. You know, definitely helped make him, you know, he was one of the first people. I always joked on my pre midlife crisis when he came in. You know, guy was a Marine. He's coming in, he's pushing me at every level, you know, and I'm pushing back and I'm like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna give it to him easy, you know. And now he's one of the guys that's kind of approaching that next level of now the new younger generation is coming in. I'm like, man, you gotta fight and claw as hard as you can, but at some point they're, they're gonna pass you up. So we've been able to do that. Now with the, at the chief level, I feel like with the, the group, we have our fire marshal, I had him on his first fire, you know, so I helped raise him. He was my probationary firefighter. So a lot of the people in this department that are in leadership levels now were my probationary firefighter. I was like the training guy. As you said, in that training role at your department, you kind of don't realize the leadership and mentorship you're doing just by training them, getting to know them, building that relationship. And I think for, you know, the upper chief level, we have to rely on some of the other chiefs around the surrounding departments. You know, when we did a leadership challenge, one of the guys that I've, I've relied on a little bit for some mentorship. I think that's, that's somewhere we have to go sometimes. We always, always need to look outside the department as well. But within the department, I think that, you know, it kind of happens naturally. I, I feel like training, we talked about fitness. I feel like training is the other foundation that builds that. Right, right. Is it, it creates that relationship. They're, they're, they're sweating together, they're working together, they're going through things together, and, and they're finding out their resolve, they're finding out how hard they can work. And then they're just unloading information and, and making them the best version of themselves. So I think that that kind of helps with that mentorship. And then just like I said before, getting outside the department and finding some mentors that are outside the department, going to conferences, conventions, doing that, networking. And you know, there is a world outside of the department we all work in. And that is so important because like I said, we came in and it was the running like the 70s. Yeah. The only way we were to change it was to get outside of the department.
- [38:43]
Unknown Host
Well, Chief Lee talked about that heavily and then Chief DiStefano also talked about that. They both emphasized, you know, getting outside the department, like you just said, because there's another point, point of view, perspective, way of doing things. Because sometimes inside your department, you know, isn't always the best way, even though you might think it is. And if you start thinking that way, it's dangerous to think that the way you're doing it is the only way. So you mentioned something so important. I want to lean on that just a little bit. You had mentioned the chief officers, for example, in your department, you guys will go reach out to other battalion chiefs or chief officers in neighboring organizations to learn from them. You don't see that everywhere. You, you, you see territories or you see departments be very territorial, we'll say, and not reach out to neighboring agencies. And it goes to what you're saying because they're closed off and saying, well, we don't want to do things their way. But some of it is just, is. Is simply understanding why they do it their way. And that will give you the perspective of, yes, we should, that, that, that reiterates why we do our way. Or you might learn a thing or two as to the reason why they do it their way. So my point being is it works for you guys to be able to have your chief officers reach out to your neighboring agencies to learn that is, I think, is so important and key in success. So run with that a little bit and how your organization and those outside organizations are able to collaborate and say, yeah, let's do this together, learn together, mentor each other.
- [40:07]
Justin Grimes
Some of that stuff is just silliness and ego. Right? Is like, we do it better than everyone else. There's no one that can do it better. You know, I remember we. So we have quite a bit of like high rise buildings, you know, and mid rise and our, our first do. And so we really said, hey, we gotta, we gotta change the way we do high rise We've been doing it this old school way, dragging basically a dead body full of, you know, hoes and all this stuff. And it just didn't make any sense. So, you know, we started going to high rise conferences. There's a great one in Pensacola, Florida where you'd see everyone from all over the entire country and you could do like a Denver track to Miami, Dade track to fdny. And you know, we picked little parts of everyone, you know, and then we brought it back and we said, hey, what, what's going to work for us? We made different hose loads, different tactics, and we took all this stuff and we kind of said, you know what, these guys do this on a much more regular basis. So this is a great opportunity for us to learn what works best for us. Same thing, like, we're really big into water rescue. We got a bunch of lifeguards, we brought in people from the outside and we've even taken some of the stuff from our lifeguarding and our water rescue stuff and implemented it in swift water training, you know, so it's, it, it's kind of silly to think that you have the best idea without going out there and exploring in getting input because so many people have said, hey man, we've been trying this, it doesn't work. You know, this, this didn't work out so great. So I think being able to go to the outside, we don't need to reinvent the wheel. We need to find out what works for us. We all have different hazards in our community that we need to, to develop a plan, implement training, get the proper equipment to be able to do that. But we have to learn from somewhere else, you know.
- [41:54]
Unknown Host
Yeah.
- [41:55]
Justin Grimes
So to, to just think that, oh, let's just come up with our own idea or we've always done it this way since 1976. Things have changed a lot, you know, in the last 50 years. So we need to start thinking about adapting to that change.
- [42:07]
Unknown Host
Absolutely. So we talked about so much. We talked about relationships, talked about mentorship, talked about training, we talked about getting outside your apartment. All these philosophies, concepts, traits we'll say are very important to, to, to, to, to, to say the least, and a great leader. Was there a defining moment that shaped you in your leadership philosophy in getting to these traits that, you know, resonate with you heavily?
- [42:34]
Justin Grimes
Yeah, I, I have two. So the, the first one's kind of funny. I was like 19 years old. I would say not everyone's this way, but a lot of younger kids, you're, you're you're just starting to get into the workforce, you're not embracing work, you know, you're like, literally. I was like, literally, for me, just fighting it, like, this isn't where I want to be. You know, I'm just doing this to make money. I'm just. I was literally a time. Time clock puncher, you know, or a seat filler, you know, we all know these exist. So one day I'm sitting, and it's a guy I work with, and we did landscaping and found. Built waterfalls and fountains and did landscape material, rock, things like that. So I'm sitting with him after work, and I go, I go, man, I understand. He goes, what do you understand? I. I don't get how come I can't progress in any way. I go, I come to work on time, I do whatever you tell me to do, you know, and then at the end of the day, you know, I feel like I've done everything you asked me to do. How come I can't get anywhere? And he goes, man, you just answered all your own questions. I go, what do you mean? He goes, well, you get to work on time. He's like, you know, we have this big whiteboard that has all the jobs. He goes, sometimes the jobs start earlier than 8 o'. Clock. He's like, if you see the jobs up there, you know, and you know what jobs coming up, you could just start getting that job ready, start loading up that truck. I go, I can do that. He goes, yeah, man, you can do that. And I go, oh. He goes, he goes, you know, when you're on the job site and you got a, you know, let's just say a wheelbarrow full of rock, and you don't. And you're like, what do you want me to do next? He goes, do you know what to do? And I said, yeah, I know what to do. And he goes, then just do it. And I. I go, I can do that. And he goes, yeah, you can do that. And then the last. He's like, he goes, look at the way you're dressed. I'm like, what do you mean? I was like. I go, you know, we're working outside doing landscaping. He goes, that doesn't mean you can't have pride. And he goes, you look like you crawled out of a dumpster, you know, So I kind of changed this whole mindset of mission first. What is the mission? Once I know what the mission is, man, I'm giving 110% and putting as much pride and energy and effort into. Into it and this guy was just an old drunk guy, you know, that just was a hard worker. Completely changed my life. Like that night I went out, bought all new clothes, we didn't have much money then. New clothes, new work boots, new knife, came back to work, got to work early, jumped on the board, you know, started getting stuff done. Within a year I became a crew leader. And then within another year I became a shop leader which I had the crews underneath me. So. And I didn't even realize it. And like when I'm. When working with the cruise, I'm like, hey guys, here's what we got today. We got waterfall in the morning, we've got these two deliveries and we got this, let's work together, let's get this done, let's get a great lunch, you know, and I'm not even thinking about what I'm doing. But all of a sudden you're leading these crews, they're being more efficient, there's a better attitude. You know, it wasn't just it's hot outside, this sucks, you know, it was a whole different mentality. And then the second one was at my current department, actually an officer I have a lot of respect for. But one of the days we were here and I can't remember what brought up the conversation, but what he told me was, well, he promoted, he shouldn't have to do as much. And I was like, what do you mean? He's like, well he, he promoted to a position that like I don't expect him. I go, that seems like the exact opposite of what like you promote, there's more responsibility, there's more you should be to carrying much more of a load, right? And that's when I kind of knew that wasn't one I, because I was never one of the guys, I was, you know, pushing to promote or whatever. I kind of knew like, okay, if I were getting to promotional spot or I promote, the mindset's got to change. Like you, you promote, you're taking on a lot more. And you know, when I say kind of like we're talking about, it's not just the call or the paperwork, it's. It's. You're driving the lives of others. You're making sure they get home safe. You're making sure that you're putting in leadership and helping develop them and trying to make them better. And that was my mindset. And that was one of those pivotal moments for me as well. You know, the mission first and then making sure that we do things right. Kind of the selfless Idea developing, mentoring, you know.
- [46:37]
Unknown Host
Yeah. It's not even like you were looking for a promotion. Right. You just literally took some advice and said, wow, I can do that. Yes, you did it. And then it became a habit. And then months later, you found yourself as a, you know, informal, but also in a formal leadership role. And I think that's, that's kind of what happens if you're not seeking a promotion, but you're seeking the habits that replicate a great leader in a promotion. It'll happen eventually. Right. Versus seeking motion. Right.
- [47:07]
Justin Grimes
I just didn't understand work ethic. I didn't understand. I was like, I gotta work the rest of my life. I better figure this out, you know, because you're. I was 18 or 19 year old, I think I was 19 and you know, still struggling with the workforce. And I'm just like, you know, and then one day I'm like, it literally, it's like this cloud lifted, you know, these curtains open. I'm like, you know, and from that, from that day, I've always said, you give me the mission, I'm gonna give you 110. I'm gonna put as much pride, energy and everything I can into it.
- [47:36]
Unknown Host
It.
- [47:37]
Justin Grimes
And it kind of carried along with the fire service and it starts, you know, you said at the firefighter level, what's my job? You know, my job is make sure I get my gear on fast, make sure that I, I write my reports, make sure that truck's checked out, all these type of things. Then you get to the next level, which is whether it's driving, you know, and then to the next level where you know, your company officer and like, okay, what's the day going to look like? How are we going to plan? How are we going to prepare? What are we going to do on this type of call? This type of call call, this type of call. Because, you know, sometimes back in the day, man, it was just kind of cowboy like, yeah, let's figure out what's going on. You know, those type of things needed to change. And that's what I felt. My, my position was to help make those changes. Yeah.
- [48:16]
Unknown Host
As we know, like leadership is about influence. Right. And even sometimes unintentionally, like this individual who was your boss who would mention these things, it's not like he was necessarily going out and said, you know, hey, at or Justin, you need to be doing xyz. He just gave you some things, hey, you could do this, you could do this, you could do this. And you just took it upon yourself at that point. But to know that how much influence that those words had. You know, influence. You know, words matter. We hear that all the time. Like to say that however many years later, that was a moment that now defined your leadership style and philosophy to now that you're now a fire chief, you know, of a fire department. Right. So I think I bring it up because it's important for individuals of all levels, whether you're in a formal leadership role or not, that what you're saying to others matters. You don't know how.
- [49:03]
Justin Grimes
How.
- [49:03]
Unknown Host
You don't know how much you were influencing someone to do the right thing or the wrong thing will even.
- [49:07]
Justin Grimes
I was gonna say the second one is the. The wrong thing, too, guys. That they. They lose it emotionally or they treat people poorly. You don't realize, man, if you look at it a chess game. Right. It used a pawn to take a punch on, but that. That reaction in the long game.
- [49:24]
Unknown Host
Exactly.
- [49:25]
Justin Grimes
You know what I'm saying? Like, you created a real problem, a real hole you got to dig yourself out of with that individual because they lost trust in you, you know? Yeah. So, yeah, absolutely, man. I love that. That's where I think the relationships just place so much.
- [49:40]
Unknown Host
Yeah.
- [49:40]
Justin Grimes
You know, into it.
- [49:42]
Unknown Host
That's perfect. All right, well, this is a great segue, because now this is all about action items. So as we talked about relationships today being the theme, we obviously thought about training and mentorship and so much more. But around relationships, if you were talking to a group of new firefighters and you were giving them some advice, some tips, and they're young in their career, what would you say to them or what can they start doing today early on to start developing and creating relationships?
- [50:08]
Justin Grimes
So it's kind of silly. We always kind of joke when they walk in the door with a hey, open your ears and shut your mouth sort of deal, Right?
- [50:15]
Unknown Host
Oh, yeah.
- [50:16]
Justin Grimes
Absorb as much as you can. Just listen and develop your own opinions. That's something that I think is really important because you'll get people in the door, and you know, this exists. We try to. To nip this in the bud, but it's just. It's. It's gonna be everywhere. There's gossip, there's people that don't. Don't care so much for these people, whatever the case may be. I feel like we're pretty limited there, but it still exists, Right. So always say, I want to. You. You develop your own opinions about people. So because you might have a great rel. Someone might tell you, this person's an awful individual. You may. They End up being the best manager. Wedding, you know, you never know. So develop your own opinions and develop your own relationship. So we really want them, you know, pretty much to walk in the door. We're going to embrace them. We're going to try to make them, like I said, the best firefighter we can. And then we, we want them to start building those relationships. And it's so, it's so funny. It happens so naturally with some of them. We have a, A new probationary firefighter here. Man, the guy is, like, so loved. I can't. I don't think the guy says, like, four words a day, you know, but his actions speak so loud. Like, everyone just do. This guy's such a good person. He works so hard. He puts everyone before him. Just doesn't really talk, you know, so sometimes actions will even speak louder than the word words. But, you know, you start developing the relationship. We always say that when someone walks in the door. A new firefighter, that first year will benefit you the next 20. When I first started, there was a crew, and they had a firefighter that they were just like, yeah, this guy's no good. He stinks. You know, whatever. I'm like, well, what did you do with him? You didn't do anything with them. So he's a product of you. He isn't that great because you guys didn't put anything into him. So you put that energy into them. That's a dividend that will just pay and pay and pay and pay again. So. And then it's kind of like having them get sucked into that culture, right? That culture of relationships and alignment and all that kind of stuff. So get your own opinions on people, develop your own relationships. Then, like I said, then we try to mentor them. You know, not everyone has the same level of talent, but everyone can work hard. So, no, I, I, My core value is always towards that stuff, is do the right thing, right? Always give 110 and be positive. So you can always, always ask someone, like, if you give 110, you know, your talent can only take you so far. You can outwork talent, right?
- [52:45]
Unknown Host
Exactly.
- [52:46]
Justin Grimes
If you're trying to be the best version of yourself, man, you're. You're making us happy. So, you know, when they walk in the door, if you can do those three things, try to do the right thing. Be positive. Give 110%, man, you've set yourself up for just moving positive. And then it's, it's learning some of those hard skills and then really focusing on those, those soft skills, like you said focusing on leadership, whether you go upon, take it upon yourself, whether we offer formal training, I think that's something that, that if you stop trying to learn about leadership, it is a use it or lose it skill. You'll find yourself drifting. You'll start talking to people different. You'll. You'll kind of lose that following if you don't really consistently stay on top of it.
- [53:29]
Unknown Host
Yeah, I mean, it's so true about, especially as you talk to firefighters, it's like when you say you have a recruit class, naturally you're gonna have individuals that have more talent, they're gonna be more talented, whether it be because they, you know, they had a previous profession that correlated really well with the fire service, whether they were a volunteer firefighter of 10 years that already been through three academies before they got hired full time. So talent can't be the reason why you are, are, are so great. Those individuals that are brand new, this profession can be great. Just, you got to rely on that work ethic, like you said. So I, I love that because, you know, whether you go professional athletes, right? Like, even Kobe Bryant talked about this, and we always talk about sports on this podcast. It's like he didn't have the most talent and he admitted it, but he outworked everyone in the room. He outworked everyone in the gym, and he was, he was okay with that. He's like, if you come to the gym, just know when you get there. I will have been there for three hours already. Just, just know that. And you're not going to catch up, because five years will go by. I have thousands and thousands of more hours than you. So work ethic is where it is. And I love how you said optimism or being positive, because in addition to that, people will now want, they'll want to be around you now, too, because you're hard working and you're positive in that.
- [54:36]
Justin Grimes
You know, I saw, we kind of talked a little about one of the questions about doing what's right, you know. So, yes, one of the things I always say with doing what's right and the best way I can correlate it to them is, you know, there's a million ways to kind of preach that. So I, I say this and I heard it somewhere, I don't know where, but it makes so much sense to me. When you get done grocery shopping, you have a grocery cart, what are you supposed to do with it? You know what you're supposed to do? You're supposed to go take it to the cart, return now, if you do it, do you get anything for it? I guess at Aldi's you get like a quarter. If you guys have Aldi's, I don't know if you have those here, but most places you get nothing.
- [55:13]
Unknown Host
Right, Right, Right.
- [55:14]
Justin Grimes
No one. No one's going to patch on the back. Thanks for returning the grocery cart. No one's. No one's going to give you an attaboy, but it's the right thing to do, you know? Are you going to get in trouble if you don't do it? No, but it's the right thing to do. I tell them when they come to work, if you just have that mind mindset every single time with every single decision, you're never going to have a problem. Yep. Just try to do what's right. Think about it that way. Sometimes it's harder, sometimes it's more work, sometimes it's a pain in the butt, but it's always going to end up being to your benefit if you just think like that. It's a silly thing, but it does make sense.
- [55:46]
Unknown Host
Well, how about this quote? Because this. This is a quote that I resonate with, and what you just said kind of brought me to it. It says, wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it. Right is right even if no one is doing it. So what do you. What are your thoughts on that? Because what you talked about is like, yeah, no one's telling you to do these certain things, nor is it necessarily wrong. If I don't bring the cart back, what will you say? But there's a part of you that says, you know what? I'm going to go ahead and do it. So right is, you know, it can be subjective, but sometimes we just know what the right thing to do is, and we don't have to seek a priority approval from others. Be like, you know, should I do this? Well, no, if you're asking that question, just like, if something's wrong, it's like, I don't know if this is wrong. Should I really be doing. If you're asking the question, you probably already know the answer.
- [56:30]
Justin Grimes
Yeah. So I have a great story for that. And the funny part about the grocery cart thing is I have a couple of the guys that work here. They're like, you know, I return the grocery card every time since you told me that. You know, that's awesome. I had a lieutenant when I was a district, and he knew the answer. Like, it was like going to go do a company inspection or some sort of public ed. He's like, hey, Do I have to put my blue shirt on? You know, we are button up our, our, our, our class B or depending on what, how your department does it. And so he, I was like, hey man, do what you think is right. And he goes, man, I hate when you say that. And I'm like, well, you know the answer. Why are you asking me? You know, like, you know what you're supposed to do. So, yeah, there's that, that, that Mark Twain, I believe, saying, which was, you know, there's never a, a wrong time to do the right thing and there's never a right time to do the wrong thing that's right. You know, most of these guys, I won't say all, but most of the guys and girls, by the time they get to us, they know the difference between right and wrong.
- [57:30]
Unknown Host
Yes.
- [57:31]
Justin Grimes
It's really for us to embrace that proper decision making. And now there are some, you know, as we get younger people or whatever the case may be, they, they still don't know that. And that's kind of that thing we talked about is sometimes you're raising some of these. Yes, they come in the fire service as they're, as they're young. Yeah, I am 100 behind that. You know, we had a guy that he was testing for promotion and they just got back from Swiftwater class and it's the whole crew at that station, they, they mountain bike, you know, so they're, they're upstairs and they're all talking about their mountain bike trip and you know, all this kind of stuff. This guy I walked downstairs have no clue. He's down there washing everyone's swift water dry suits, you know, doing it by himself, not looking for approval. He didn't even see me seeing him. And I was like, you know, that's one of those moments where you're like, I know this is the right guy. When it comes time, he's going to be the right guy, you know, and he does the mountain biking and stuff with them, but he's not seeking anything for it. He's just doing the right thing, you know, and those are those, those little times that you get so happy as like an officer, a leader with an organization. You see someone doing that and it just kind of bring a little smile to your face.
- [58:46]
Unknown Host
It does, it does. It smiles. Yeah. A sense of pride and says, yeah, we're doing something right around here, so. Absolutely. Favorite book, Chief, I, I assume you read a lot of books. I assume you're into leadership development. But as far as a leadership based book, what's A recommended reading for the listeners.
- [59:01]
Justin Grimes
So there's so many of them. But I, I will say that based on this, this podcast, I think the talking point of, of relationships, I truly feel like the, the book of how to win friends and influence people, it's a, it's an oldie but goodie. I mean, if, if you haven't read it or sometimes I'll listen to them in the car, you know, driving to work and stuff like that in the morning. It's great because you talk about soft skills and stuff. Man, some people just don't understand. That whole book is about that, like, the entire book. It's like a whole, you know, a lesson, like a college class on that. And, you know, some of it's, I would say, you know, older stuff that's, that's. You can't always relate to the same. But it's exactly the same thing as today. You just plug it into today and all those lessons continue to just push. It's, it's like some of the old stoicism stuff, you know, you listen to that stuff. That stuff's from, you know.
- [59:56]
Unknown Host
Yes.
- [59:56]
Justin Grimes
Hundreds of years ago, Biblical time. Yes. Still resonates today. Same with that book. So when you talk about that, that talks about skills all the time on how to influence people, leadership, how to make friends, how to, you know, I'll try to remember, but there's a, a part of the book where he talks about Abraham Lincoln, you know, and, and Abraham Lincoln had criticized someone, and the guy, like, once he saw his criticized guy, challenged him to like, a duel, and he said, like, well, I'm never going to openly criticize people in this way again. There's a, A, A, a, a right way. You always talk about criticism. There's, there's constructive criticism and then there's criticism that is just there to break you down. There's nothing constructive about it.
- [60:46]
Unknown Host
Yep.
- [60:47]
Justin Grimes
You know, so. And that's kind of what he said. It's like, there's a way to do this in a right way, you know, but when it's that type of criticism that's just there to hurt you, that that's not a positive way to do it. So, so there's some really great moments in that book, and I think anyone's looking for leadership, you know, they get Spotify, download it, listen to it on your way to work.
- [61:09]
Unknown Host
Yeah, start there. Yeah.
- [61:11]
Justin Grimes
100.
- [61:12]
Unknown Host
But yeah, I mean, we're talking 100 years. Right. And the concepts, the philosophies are the same as today. Right. There's. Yeah, there's updated versions, there's all that. But I mean, what does John Maxwell say? Right, right. Leadership is influence. Nothing more, nothing less. And we're talking about winning friends, how to influence people, and also understanding that influencing negatively is also leadership. Just not the leadership you're looking for. Right. So we have to understand that influencing others is what we're doing every day with our actions, with our words, the way we carry ourselves.
- [61:42]
Justin Grimes
Yeah. Have some, some young leaders and, you know, trying to make sure that they understand that is like, man, you don't understand the amount of damage you can do. You know, like, again, I think I said it earlier, but you're going to be crawling out of a hole. Your whole job in leadership is to kind of get people to fall. Your job is to make them better. And in conjunction, that kind of happens. But when you kind of alienate them by treating them poorly or not developing a relationship with them, you know, are you really accomplishing leadership?
- [62:10]
Unknown Host
Right, Exactly. With that being said, we move to the leadership challenge, and leadership challenges are opportunity to continue to talk leadership. We're here today because Chief Lee challenged yourself to be a guest. And thank you so much chiefly for the challenge. But is there someone else out there that you would like to formally challenge for us to reach out, to continue to talk leadership?
- [62:32]
Justin Grimes
Yeah, I. I don't know how long you've been in Florida, so.
- [62:37]
Unknown Host
I have a good one for you after this. Yeah.
- [62:39]
Justin Grimes
Yes. This individual, you're gonna get a real treat when you talk to him. It just has a great, long reputation. So his name is Tim Rogers. Uh, he works for Rescue 3 International. But I know he had like 30 plus, probably close to 40 years with the Charlotte, North Carolina Fire Department. And, you know, he is just. He's kind of one of those, I always say, like, godfathers. I don't know where he falls in with, like, swift water, but he's one of these guys that just. He's been to so many deployments, has so much experience. You know, it's one of those things I don't think I could ever touch of what he's been able to accomplish in his career. But, you know, he's so cool is that he wants to mentor people. He's kind of, like, taken our department in a lot of ways and, and mentored a lot of the guys at our department. And, you know, he. He'd be the best one to explain his background, but, I mean, he teaches in Europe, teaches all over the place. And yeah, he is just going to be. I. Like I said it's going to be a real treat for you to talk to him. Just a wealth and wealth of knowledge and leadership and mentorship.
- [63:48]
Unknown Host
Well, I appreciate it. Tim Rogers, is he from Florida or you said for North Carolina. Busy in Florida now?
- [63:53]
Justin Grimes
No, no.
- [63:54]
Unknown Host
Okay.
- [63:56]
Justin Grimes
He's in Waynesville or something.
- [63:58]
Unknown Host
Okay, got it. Because what you said was so funny. You said you don't know how long with Florida. So it's funny because last week we just did an episode with two, two individuals from Phoenix Fire Department. And right before that we had John Lovato Jr. From Florida. So it's like we were bouncing back and forth. So when I, when we hosted the podcast with Chief Lovato, I said, hey, Chief, it seems like Florida is breeding all these great leaders because we on this podcast with 74 episodes, we've had the most guests, state of Florida. And then when we hosted last week, two individuals from Phoenix, I told those individuals, all right, you've now overtaken Florida as the most. And then so now we have you on the show back to Florida. And so with you and Tim Rogers, I'm like, okay, Florida is definitely is running away with this year.
- [64:36]
Justin Grimes
I don't know if you've been up in North Carolina or any of those areas yet.
- [64:39]
Unknown Host
I have not. I have not. So it's great, right? It's great.
- [64:42]
Justin Grimes
And this guy, he'll get you, you know, I said he teaches in Europe. He probably gets you all over the place, you know.
- [64:48]
Unknown Host
That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, I will say that the success of this is just simply by the guests because we can only have the conversation based on the things that you, you know, discuss and have our listeners resonate with, but then to help us further the conversation by going all over. So, so thank you for your time today with that. We always want to show credit to yourself for giving up an hour and a half of your time today. How do we find Chief Grimes in the future, whether it be through articles you write, classes that you may teach, how do we find you if our listeners want to reach out to you?
- [65:20]
Justin Grimes
So the interesting thing is I don't do a lot of the articles and stuff now. I teach at the, the Fire College, Eastern Florida State. I haven't, because I'm actually recently promoting promoted. And, you know, since I've been in this role, I just not have had the time to get out there and teach. But one thing that we do teach in our department is we teach a water rescue technician class. You know, up there in Washington. I know you guys got a lot of water too. It's one of the interesting things to me is that you know, doing all the, the rescue technician, rescue specialist in the state of Florida classes, you know, whether it's, it's rope techs, structural, structural collapse, confined space, trench, whatever it may be, the one thing we have in Florida around us everywhere is water. You know, everyone's got some body of water in their first dew. I don't care if it's a swimming pool, but a swimming pool, pond, a lake, a river and ocean. It's something that I just haven't seen the fire department completely grasp onto, at least in my area yet to where the state has said hey, we're going to make sure because I know more and more fire departments are getting to an issue where hey, we have a water rescue. Can I just put this guy in? I don't know what his level of swimming training is, what his rescue training is inside of water. So because we're on the Atlantic Ocean and we do get quite a bit of water rescues here, we, we had quite a bit of people that are lifeguards. We have a swift walk water team and flood rescue team. We do a lot with water. So we developed this class and what it is is a 48 hour class and at the end of it you can work with USLA to become and that's the United States Life Saving association which is for lifeguarding to get your department as a, an aquatic rapid response team. So what we're able to do is help some of these fire departments that have river, ocean, whatever in their first, first do. Now you actually have guys they, they do the, the swim every year, the qualified 500 meter 10 minute swim, the 464, they do all these things and it's been proven so you know that you can have confidence. I'm going to send them into the water and I'm going to make sure that they can go get that person out. They have all the skills and they have the ability and the fitness to be able to do what they need to do. So that's something that we've been teaching. They can always reach out to me at Jay Grunt times at City of Cocoa beach if you're interested. I, you know we've had some, some departments from outside the state interested as well. But we've mostly been teaching in state, locally, surrounding counties and things like that. So if anyone's listening and that's something they're interested in, that's something that we do teach a couple times a year here.
- [67:58]
Unknown Host
Wow. A couple times a year to 48 hour course. That's a six day course.
- [68:02]
Justin Grimes
Yeah, yeah. Well we do a night, a night portion, the night search. So. And what they do is they'll work with you depending on what's in your first do, whether you got a jetty, a pier, look at it, whatever it may be, they'll be able to help you do pre plan for that, rescue scenarios for that. And we try to use what we have here as best we can because we do, you know, when there's a hurricane, swell or something here, the water will move pretty good. So but we do a lot of time in the pool pool, a lot of time in the river and a lot of time in the ocean and wow those things.
- [68:37]
Unknown Host
Before I let you go, do you have any lasting leadership thoughts that you would like to have our listeners walk away with today?
- [68:43]
Justin Grimes
Yeah, it was something I mentioned to you, I guess one, one funny thing, right, is when you talk about leadership, everyone talks about the inverted pyramid, right? So I told you to look up a banyan tree. Did you look up like I looked.
- [68:58]
Unknown Host
It up and then I didn't get to read all of it. So talk about it.
- [69:00]
Justin Grimes
So I agree 100. We talk about selflessness and the inverted pyramid you're carrying more and more and more, right? So what I try to talk about with alignment and leadership is you got to be more like a banyan tree. So if you're, that trunk is, is the one kind of @ the bottom of the pyramid is those big branches go up those branches, especially on banyan trees, they'll have these aerial roots, roots that go down all the way until they hit the ground and then they'll grow into the ground and they'll become another trunk that'll support that. So I feel like when you have alignment you don't have to have so much heavy weight on your back, right? So the inverted pyramid, you can start to look at it. Well, if I change this, I get alignment. Maybe I can be more like a bandage. That sounds kind of silly, but I can help support the weight of all this extra branches and growth and things so it's not all being held on one person's shoulders.
- [69:52]
Unknown Host
Wow.
- [69:53]
Justin Grimes
So they're, they're somewhat common here in Florida and they're, you know, so when you see a branch that's like, you know, sometimes they'll, they'll spread out like in a huge area. You'll see this branch, you're like, man, there's just no way. Gravity is not going to let that branch be that long. Well it'll drop down and grow its own trunk right off of the branch. So kind of a saying of that inverse pyramid. If we get alignment, you know, then those people at the next level they build into that same foundation and then the next level building that same foundation. So that's kind of what I try to do. Our approach with I love VAN is.
- [70:29]
Unknown Host
Known for its cultural significance of symbolism often representing longevity, fertility and life that branches then build their own foundation. Everything is in line together to help carry the weights of the organization. We'll say help basically support everybody around them. So I love that just a different.
- [70:44]
Justin Grimes
Idea on the same sort of topic if. If you can get alignment within the organization and the culture right so.
- [70:50]
Unknown Host
So thank you everyone for tuning in today to the kitchen table. We truly hope you found this time valuable and we hope we inspired you to take action to lead and to spread the leadership conversation. Until next time, be safe, be intentional, stay curious.