← Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table 
Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table
Ep. 75: Scott Thompson, Fire Chief - Mentorship
01:23:01
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- [00:02]
Scott Thompson
Well, there's three things that every leader should or has to be able to do to be successful. Now, some people do it naturally and they don't know they're doing it. But number one, you got to understand yourself. You got to understand how you think, your biases, your emotional intelligence, what are your triggers. The second thing is we got to understand the influences of the organization. Where does the mission fit in? What is our purpose, the core values, the chosen culture? And that's number two. And then the third thing is you have to understand people. The First Responder Liaison Network is proud to present to you the Kitchen Table podcast. Join us as we explore leadership from perspectives around the globe. From firefighters to fire Chiefs, civilians to CEOs, our conversations have one simple goal. Build more leaders.
- [01:16]
Host
Good afternoon and welcome to episode 75 of the Kitchen Table. On today's episode, we welcome Fire Chief Scott Thompson and we're talking mentorship in the fire service. Chief Thompson entered the fire service in 1981 and he's been formally practicing leadership and coaching fire officers and firefighters for the last 25 years. Chief Thompson has practiced leadership as an operations officer, training chief, emergency manager, chief of department and director of public safety. He has held a leadership position and in two volunteer and five career fire departments. Chief Thompson started his paid career assigned to one of the first organized hazardous materials teams in north Texas in 1986. He spent 10 years assigned to busy suburban fire companies and as division chief, he responded regionally to fire and rescue events. Chief respondents, the Delta 191 crash, tornadoes, wildland fires, mass casualty incidents and a mid rise building explosion. He has been recognized in the region for his command and control practices. Chief Thompson was the keynote speaker at FDIC in 2024. The chief is currently the fire chief of the Colony Fire Department. That is just north of Dallas. Good morning, Chief. Thanks for joining the show today. How are you?
- [02:31]
Scott Thompson
Great, great. Thanks for having me on. I'm looking forward to this.
- [02:34]
Host
Thank you so much. So we mentioned offline and I have to capture this here because this, this conversation and the guests that come on the show are, they're not from my recommendations and they're not from people that I know because my network is not nearly as large as of our guests. But it comes from those that are on the show and they offer people that say, you know what, you got to have this person share a message. And so you by far have been. Leadership challenge is what we call it by. I think it's five individuals, which is by far more than anybody. So I do Want to say thank you so much for taking the time, because I understand you're a busy man, but thank you for what I believe is going to be a great message for our listeners today.
- [03:11]
Scott Thompson
Glad to be here.
- [03:12]
Host
Let's do it. Before we dive into the much anticipated leadership conversation that's gonna involve mentorship and I'm sure, so much more, would you mind sharing just a little bit about who Fire Chief Scott Thompson is?
- [03:24]
Scott Thompson
Yeah. You know, people think this is kind of corny, but I say it all the time. And I look at myself as a firefighter with fire chief responsibilities, and I hit on that a little bit. You know, I'm passionate about the fire service. It's all I've ever wanted to do. I was born just north of New York City, so my dream was always to work in the city for fdny. But as luck would have it, we moved to Texas, which everything has worked out great. But I'm passionate about this. I'm passionate about leadership in the fire service. I love firefighters. I believe in firefighters, and that's just kind of my focus. I got two sons that are firefighters, so it's in the family, and they help keep me focused on what's important. In 2018, I wrote the book the Functional Fire Company. So that involved a lot of research, and, you know, we all have opinions and. And those things we like to share, but. But I try to test each one of those and. And doing the exercise of writing the book and then spending some time trying to disprove all the things that I really believe in coming out of the other side of that, I. I hope I'm. I'm focused and centered on things that I can justify. I really only talk about things that I experience. Like you mentioned in the intro, probably my greatest contribution or the thing that qualifies me to be here and share my message, that I've worked for a lot of good fire departments, and I've worked for some iconic fire service leaders, and they've all invested in me. I've. I've had some great mentors. And so January 6th will be my 40 years of in the fire service as a career firefighter, and 17 years with the colony. And so it's my turn to give back. But I also have a message that I'm trying to push through the American or suburban fire service anyway, about leadership and mentoring and committing to chosen culture. So that's kind of what I'm about. And I got a great, great group here in the Colony, Texas. It's really phenomenal organization. In 17 years, we've had a lot of successes for a suburban fire department. I believe the leadership team, certainly not just Scott Thompson, we figured out a lot of things that a lot of departments are struggling with. We made some mistakes, were by no means perfect. And so that's kind of where the message comes from. It's a work in progress. I'm learning more now than I ever have at any point in my career, and so I'm really embracing that. And I go to a lot of firefighter conferences, and I love hanging around firefighters and listening and hearing what's important to them and then hopefully bringing some of that back to the 5 Station 5 Firehouse Department in the Colony, Texas, and seeing what works for us.
- [06:10]
Host
He said so much there that I want to highlight. First off, you said you go to firefighter conferences and you put yourself out there, you listen, you're still learning because you're the fire chief, right? And it's like I, I, we, we go to, I go to firefighter conferences, and I see a lot of firefighters officers there, and I'm sure there's chief officers there because I don't get to meet everybody. But the fact that you've been in the game for such a long time, but you're still going, you're still learning, and you're still bringing back. If that's not inspiring, I don't know what is. But going back just a little bit, you said early on you're passionate about leadership. So when did that come about? Meaning get into the fire service at a young age, I assume. And I'm sure, you know, most of us, we get in, we want to, want to go fight fire, we want to go do ems, do medic stuff or whatever it is. But leadership itself is not something that's, you know, we're, we're not looking at leadership early on. You're looking at doing the firefighting stuff. Talk about, like, where that passion comes from and saying, I'm going to dive into leadership and then eventually be one that is an advocate, teaches it and all that.
- [07:11]
Scott Thompson
So, you know, leadership is a science and it's an art. And so depending on whose books you read, what mindset you commit to really determines how you define leadership. John Maxwell says leadership is influence. And so I buy into that. But that influence is moving people in a direction to achieve a vision, to accomplish the goals and objective, to get from point A to point B. And so that's something that's kind of always fascinated me, the influence part, when I decided and everybody has a version of this. When I decided to become a firefighter better, because I've always wanted to do it, I was all in. So from day one, I wanted to be a positive influence. Now, as a, as a young firefighter that got assigned to special operations in Plano, Texas, where they hadn't had a young guy in a long time, my influence was very little. And so I still looked for those opportunities. And because I had a HAZMAT background, even as a brand new firefighter on the HAZMAT team, my officers gave me a lot of leadership responsibilities because of my HAZMAT experience. And we were a regional unit, so I had to make sure that I was on my game and that I remained a student so that I would not become irrelevant. So I would say it probably started there and then I was also a volunteer and part paid. I was all in at a young age before I got older. And as a volunteer I got put into a leadership role very young. As you know, in a lot of volunteer organizations, it's kind of by default. And because I was a career guy, even though I was a brand new firefighter, it was assumed that I had experiences that would benefit that organization. So I, I was an assistant chief in Argyle, Texas at a very young age. And the, the fire chief gave me a lot of responsibilities. But, but I always looked at that as opportunity. Never as privileged, never once as privilege. And I always realized that the more responsibility that is given to me, the more I'm expected to invest and sacrifice. And I think that's sometimes where some fire service leaders get it wrong. So that, that's kind of where it started. And then one of the things that I've done for years and years and years, sometimes twice a year, sometimes only one a year. And occasionally I miss some years, but I've always tried to find a high performance fire company somewhere in the country. And I would go spend a week to 10 days with them and ride out with them and I would really focus. You know, they were elite fire companies, they were special ops, they were the busiest, they were this. And I would just try to figure out what made them a little bit better than everybody else. You know, why did they have the reputation that they had this, this last, last summer I went and rode out with Clyde Gordon and Mo Davis in Houston, 2, 2 very busy battalion chiefs. So that's the most recent. But I've ridden with the rescues in New York and obviously Chicago with the squads and Los Angeles, a lot of places. And so I always tried to capture what was, what was Unique in those firehouses. And I really believe, even though, you know, many will say it does start at the top, and I believe it does. But I really, I really kind of focus not as much on organizational leadership, but leadership in those micro and subcultures, the firehouse leadership and then shift leadership or battalion leadership. So, you know, I have a role as the fire chief to provide leadership to the organization, but I want my influence to be at those people that are leading those subcultures and those micro cultures. And so I've just been a student. I started reading and this is going to sound probably a little weird, but my reading really since completing the book, and I still read fire service leadership books, but I really try to read leadership books that have nothing to do with the fire service. I also try to go to trainings or offerings or conferences that have nothing to do with the fire service, where I learn about, you know, what the police chief is dealing with or the public works director is dealing with. I went through Leadership Athens and Leadership Louisville, where they exposed us to all these other departments within the city. And there's something to learn from all of those. But I'm going to wrap up this question in saying that I believe leadership in the fire service is one of the most challenging forms of leadership. And we can talk about that in great detail. Leadership in the military is very impressive. Leadership in competitive athletics where you're driving to win a championship. But if you think about the fire service, we have so many one offs or anomalies that really create some significant leadership challenges. And I don't think most of the people that practice leadership in the American fire service realize just how complex it is. And really the ones that are getting it right, what they're achieving, it's fascinating to me. You get a good shift commander or a good fire officer with a good senior man or woman, and man, that, that is leadership in action. That's to me, what it's what it's supposed to look like.
- [12:20]
Host
So I want to ask, what does that look like? But you as the fire chief, you know, you're so passionate about all of this, whether it be teaching, whether it be mentoring, instructing, attending conferences, bringing it back, creating long term, you know, positive change. What does it look like to those that work within your organization? Because this is your thought process and mentality of what leadership should look like and what you should be doing as chief.
- [12:51]
Scott Thompson
But do.
- [12:52]
Host
How do you instill others within your organization to, we'll say, adopt the same type of mindset. We'll say, because we'll just say that Fire Chief Scott Thompson has this philosophy, but those that work within your organizations don't. Does it work? And so how does that. What does that look like?
- [13:07]
Scott Thompson
Absolutely. And let me say right away, we're not perfect. We have problems like. Like anybody else. But. But you got to kind of when. When leadership leaves your head and goes to a group or an organization, you got to package leadership. Another big mistake that fire officers make at every level is they don't take the time to define what success looks like. So if I'm in a leadership role and I'm expecting to move towards something to lead the charge, to influence people, to move from point A to point B, and I don't know what B looks like, how can I effectively lead if I don't have a clear vision? And that's probably the greatest contribution that I make to the Colony Fire Department is I provide a vision, but I got to package that vision so that everybody in the organization understands it, from the newest person to the most senior. So it starts there. So. So I've got to take the time to develop it, and then I have to articulate it so that people want to buy into it. And then probably the two things that we really focus our leadership around in the Colony, Texas, is the mission and the chosen culture. So there's two things that I've just identified now. We're all in it, taking care of our people. And, you know, we. We talk about servant leadership and those kind of things, but. But you gotta, you know, you gotta break it down to. To what is. What is the leadership movement? What is the influence? And so the first thing has to be to get leaders to buy into a mission mindset. If the organization doesn't do that, leadership becomes much more challenging because the mission is one thing that we can all focus on. It's a rallying point. It's one thing where all the firehouses and all the shifts can come together, and it's the one thing we have in common. So that's a huge leadership tool, maintaining that mission mindset. The second thing is to understand the culture and to commit to a chosen culture. So when those things are clearly defined and you've taken the time to define what success looks like in your work group, to me, those are the essential things that have to be there to be an effective leader. And then I'll wrap it up by saying leadership. Of course, to me, my opinion starts with a look in the mirror. We have to be able to lead ourselves before we can be successful leading others. We have to understand our operational and leadership philosophies. What are our non negotiables, how do our values line up with the organization's core values? And all those things are critical components. So a very simple term or a very broad term, how you look at it as leadership really is a very complex thing. And you know, whenever I want to listen to a leader, whether it's read a book or listen to a podcast, the very first thing I do is look at their organization and find out if they're successful leading at home. You would not believe the people that are on the leadership circuit. You probably have in the fire service. They're talking about leadership and they're, they're one decision away from a vote in no confidence. Nobody knows what the vision is. You ask them what the mission is, they can't answer it. And, and so all the, the critical things that to me define successful leadership are missing. And yet they're teaching because they go after the low hanging fruit. Well, I'm going to talk about servant leadership. Well, okay, there's a lot of books on that and it's great to talk about. You know, I'm going to love and take care of my people, but leadership in action is, is much more than that. And they're going to be people that disagree with that, understand that they're going to be people listening this podcast are going to disagree with what I'm saying. But I always believe if I can form somebody, cause somebody to form an opinion for or against, and this is important when we talk about mentoring. If I can cause you to form an opinion, you can justify for and against, that's leadership and that's learning. That's learning.
- [17:16]
Host
Yes, it is. Wow. You, you said earlier testing and proving theory, something that you do like I, I, I guess how important is that? And talk a little bit about, you know, when you're trying something new, let's just use, we'll throw something out there. The, the, the concept of extreme ownership. We'll say know, you'll hear people say, hey, pick up this book, read it. This is the philosophy we want you to do. But it's one thing to grasp a concept, but then it's another thing, like you said, to test it, to use it, to prove it. Because going to a class, reading a book does not make you now the expert of any of it. You have to practice it, you have to do it. So I guess my point and my question is if you want that culture to adopt whatever mindset, what it is, if it's A leadership mindset that you have to practice that every day because the knowledge sitting by itself is. Is doing nothing. You actually have to implement it. And we're talking about implementing it at the individual level, at the crew level, at the organizational level, and all the above. So talk about that. That testing these theories, improving that they work, because not everything's going to work.
- [18:16]
Scott Thompson
That goes back to defining what success looks like. If I don't know what the target looks like, what am I aiming at every day? What am I leading towards? Leadership is movement. So I've really got to take the time. I've got a saying on my board, and I've said this on several podcasts, so I apologize for repeating it, but on the top of my board it says, start with the end in mind and why, if not this, what? So starting with the end in mind. I didn't coin that it comes from Stephen Covey's 7 Habits. But when you start with the end in mind, you can begin to visualize what the end product looks like or what you hope it is. And from that you can start talking about leaders, intent, goals, objectives. But you're. You're starting to create mental images of what success looks like. So. So you start to develop a mental roadmap. And now you can identify the knowledge, skills, abilities, attitudes and experiences it takes to get there. The next part of that is the why. People like to understand the why. You're not going to get buy in if you can't explain the why. And your leadership is going to be dead in the water. I believe everybody deserves to understand the why. Even a kid on his first day, if he's got questions, we should explain that. Here's the other cool thing. When you understand the why, you become a problem solver. And then the last part of that, if not this, what. So what are my other options if I don't commit to this? So. So that's a part of it. Whenever somebody comes into my organization with a change or recommending a change, the first thing I say is, what problem are we trying to solve? Or how is this going to make us better? Because firefighters are brilliant people and they got creative minds. And if you don't frame out when we're going to take action and when we're not, then you're chasing your tail. You're going in a bunch of different directions. I'm a huge believer. This is something else other people will disagree in. We have just under 100 members. We have three shifts and five firehouses. I expect uniformity and consistency across those shifts and those firehouses, we don't have 15 different ways of doing things. We have the colony way. But to get there, you got to define what that looks like. And I expect everybody below me, my ops chiefs, my division chiefs, my battalion chiefs, captains, lieutenants, apparatus operator and to include the senior man and woman to be leading in that direction. Now that's kind of the structure part of it, the art of it is going to be their personal commitment is going to determine how that's kind of done. It's like on the fire ground in our system, the first engine's job is to address fire attack. That's how we put it. Well, I'm going to leave it up to those company officers how to do that. They're going to pull a can a cross lay or something off the back and they're going to go to work. But they know what the objective is to attack them, get water on the fire. So the same thing can kind of be said in leadership. This is what we want to achieve. We're going to give you tools to get there, the training, but you figure out what works best for, for your team unit, the personalities, the priorities, the passion of your teams. And so we do a lot of experiments with that. We play with that a lot. In our small department we have a very strict engine and truck deployment model. So we don't have it where one day you're riding the engine, the next day you're riding a truck, the next day. We kind of did away with that. Well, that's kind of difficult to lead. That causes some leadership challenges. But if we explain why we're doing it and then if the operations start to image what we said it would look like, now the buy in comes and people start to get on board and then there's momentum and then there's passion and then there's commitment. But it takes a lot to get there. You know, the fire service is all about one liners, T shirts, bumper stickers, and you know, I hear this guy with a great reputation say something and I'm going to believe it's gospel. So because of that, because that's the world we live in, I challenge all my biases. I want to make sure that what I believe is the keep a lot of people listen to me in my organization regionally and I've been given great platforms like this to share my message. I got to do the keynote in FDIC last year. So I take great responsibility in that I have, I have a duty to share some of my thoughts and Opinions and my philosophies, but they've got to be grounded in something more substantial. I can't just become this person that just talks off emotion. And so when I say that is, you know, vertical ventilation, let's just use that, because that's a hot topic in the fire service or searching off the line. You know, the guys in FDNY will say we're absolute morons because we put people on the roofs that we put them on. All right, I get that. But I can tell you as an operator, somebody who's been a firefighter doing it and somebody who's been in the division chief on the inside evaluating the results of it, that's what we're going to do. And we understand it, we train on it, we put the best people doing it. And so. But I read all the stuff against it. I didn't read this stuff to support it. I wanted to hear what all the critics were saying. The same thing with searching off a line, then in her search, working above the fire, whatever you want to call it. So you always got to get both sides of the story. And I don't know who it was, but you hit on it. I don't remember who coined it, but the most dangerous person is the person who's only read one book because you're not getting any. Any other viewpoints.
- [24:03]
Host
Yeah, no other.
- [24:04]
Scott Thompson
And it's really hard, especially in this day, and we're seeing it nationally in politics. We've lost the art of debate. We've lost our willingness to sit down and have a conversation. And here I'll piss off another group with this comment. But one of the reasons why I started going more to firefighter conferences and fire chief conferences is fire chiefs, in my experience only, they don't like to get in the weeds on topics. They don't want to have the tough discussions because they're afraid they're going to be wrong and they're afraid they're going to be called out. You go ask a firefighter a question, you better hold on. He's going to give you your opinion. And. But he's going to. Most of the good ones are going to back it up. That's what I need to hear. I don't need to hear a politically correct fire chief, you know, who's. Who's trying to frame this thing. I want to hear the raw. This is what I believe. These are the challenges that we're facing. And so I know I'm talking. I'm going a lot of different areas.
- [25:01]
Host
I love it.
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Scott Thompson
But that's kind of. So I'm always testing the things that, that, that people say are good or not wrong. I, I kind of do my own litmus test. We, we, we everybody who, who influences our people, we vet. Because there's so much reckless information and careless information. You know, I've got nothing against a guy who's been riding the right seat of a fire truck, sharing leadership lessons in his organization. But you know, to go out there nationally or, or a fire chief who's been doing it for five minutes, and, and just because I have this on my, my collar, I can start teaching leadership, we got to watch out for that stuff. So, so I guess, you know, I'm just a huge student in trying to, to break, I break things down in very, very simple form, understand it at that level and build up from there. And we do that operationally and we try to do it administratively.
- [25:56]
Host
One thing that I loved that you talked about, you said you challenge your biases. You know, you talked a little bit about confirmation bias in today's world, in society, we're always looking for an opinion or a thought or a friend that can back you up in something that you already believe. And sometimes, oftentimes we'll just say, we will ignore what is obvious on the other side or we won't bring that to the table. We'll bring only.
- [26:18]
Scott Thompson
I don't want to hear that.
- [26:18]
Host
Yeah, exactly. So, but, so now I'll go with but it takes a special, we'll say special person, special leader to say, I am going to challenge my biases. I, this is what I want to believe, but let me look on the other side. Let me read and study upon that or ask the group, you know, tear this down, tear this idea that I have forward, you know, poke the holes in this and see, tell me what I'm missing. It takes a special person to do that because not everyone's going to do that and say, hey everybody, let's come to this room and let's, you know, everyone wants their idea to be the right one, is my point. So it takes a strong leader that has that self awareness, we'll say to be able to do that and want that. And so you've done that. And so how, I mean, how important is just to have our leaders say, hey everybody, here's my thoughts on this topic. But it may not be the right one, might not be the best one, but please help me understand the other side because I might be missing something.
- [27:13]
Scott Thompson
Well, you may, or just may agree or disagree based on where you are in your organization. But one of the things that ruined fire department organizations, our individual agendas, it's more about me instead of we. And that's, that's, that's multiplying in the fire service daily. We're trying to make the organization more about the individual than we are the mission. So if I take the time to deep dive and understand both thoughts or multiple mindsets, I answer to 90 people in operations. We have 30 per shift, and then we have about nine in, in administration. So every. I can tell you this. Everybody in operations believes they can run the Colony Fire Department better than I can. You know, and I love it. We got a lot of hard charges, and I want them to think and I want them to be. I want them to be go getters. But when they come in with an idea, I owe it to Fire chiefs love to default to no. Fire chiefs love to just shoot. No, no, no. Because, you know, when I say yes, it's more exposure, it's more liability, it's more work, it's possibly more money. So as people come into me and have their conversations and share their, their mindset, hopefully I've done the homework to respect what they're saying, but to be able to come back with reasoning why we are or can't go with that idea, that concept or whatever. And the only way you can do that, I think, is you got to understand as you're never going to understand all the angles and get it all, but at least you're well rounded enough on the opposing sides where you can make enough of an argument for the best way, not for Scott Thompson, but for the Colony Fire Department. And so I think that keeps us. And it's tough, and it's getting tougher every day, but again, it keeps us in that we mindset and it combats that me mindset. I can, I can immediately recognize when somebody's coming in with a personal agenda. And I'm not talking about how, you know, my wife's sick and, and I got, you know, personal things like that. But when they want to find a backdoor way to get their idea or their thought in, there's nothing positive about that. And, you know, and I use the term cowardice, but, you know, people want to. Want to find somebody to carry their message for them because they don't have the courage or they don't want to do the work. They don't want to. They don't want to put in the work to do the studying so they can justify. So they call the association president or somebody say, hey, I'm not happy to bitch about it. Go talk to the chief about it. Right. There's a problem with that, to me, is that, number one, you don't believe in it enough to carry that flag yourself, or number two, you don't have the courage to do it. And I think we can all agree that courage is lacking in leadership in the American fire service. It's not the courage to crawl down a hot hallway. It's the courage to do the right thing, to go against the majority because it is the right thing and have those uncomfortable conversations. One of the most valuable things a leader can do for the people that look to them for leadership is provide timely, accurate feedback. Right. That's part of our job. But if I'm, you know, you know, I live with these guys, I'm an embedded leader. I don't want them to talk about me behind my back. I don't want to come up with a nickname and call me Captain Hard Ass and this and that. And so what do I do? I avoid the conversation. Well, I'm not doing anybody favors except myself. Right. I haven't invested anything. I haven't sacrificed anything. I've taken the path of least resistance. To me, that's not leadership.
- [31:02]
Host
Timely, accurate feedback. I mean, talk about how. Talk about necessary. Not just in the fire service. I mean, if you talk about professional sports. Right. Feedback.
- [31:12]
Scott Thompson
We do it with our kids.
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Host
We do with our families. Yeah.
- [31:15]
Scott Thompson
So we practice leadership hundreds of times a day. Yeah. Right. And we do it, you know, if somebody was coming into our house, that the plumber was in there and we hired him to unplug our toilet and he's tearing out the walls, we would go in there and say something.
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Host
Yeah, Right.
- [31:30]
Scott Thompson
But we'll let somebody come into our firehouse and start tearing it apart. We'll sit there and drink our coffee and listen to this guy. Bash our organization, bash our guys who are trying. Bash the standards, bash anything that's good, and we'll let them do it.
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Host
Yeah.
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Scott Thompson
Because nobody has a courage. Say, shut up.
- [31:46]
Host
Yeah. So let's go with this now, before we get into the all anticipated mentorship discussion is who teaches this stuff? Right? So like we talk about on this show, the obvious goes, you know, goes without saying. A lot of training in the hard skills of the job, obviously. Right. Pulling hose, thrown ladders, ems, all the above. It's going to be there. But what about the stuff that you're talking about? Training our members to have uncomfortable, necessary conversations. Right. Teaching people how to give timely Accurate feedback to our members. Who's teaching our fire service leaders that. Because that's not what our focus is on when we're in the fire academy, nor coming out of the academy. So you either have it. We talked about mentality earlier, but how do we get our leaders to adopt these types of mindsets so they can have these uncomfortable conversations when they do step into these formal roles?
- [32:37]
Scott Thompson
Well, there's three things that every leader should or has to be able to do to be successful. Now, some people do it naturally and they don't know they're doing it. But number one, you got to understand yourself. You got to understand how you think, your biases, your emotional intelligence, what are your triggers. You know, one of the things I really had to struggle with because I'm such a passionate person and I'm a little bit of a hothead at times, I'll be the first to say I've gotten much better, but younger because I wanted everybody to love this job as much as I did. And I couldn't understand why that was the hardest thing I had to learn as a fire chief. And they're still good people, right? So you got to understand yourself. And I would challenge anybody that's listening who's in a leadership role, formal and informal. The two things that you got to do, you got to take a blank sheet of paper, go into your personal space, whether it's on your boat, your deer stand, drinking your best glass of bourbon, and define your, your operational and leadership philosophy. Get in your head like I talked about. What are your non negotiables, the things that you're not going to compromise. And then the second thing you got to do is define what success looks like under your leadership. I mentioned both of those. But when you grasp those, that's the foundation for how you lead. A lot of officers make mistakes. They don't understand their leadership or operational philosophy. And because of that, they often make comments sitting around the kitchen table or in the firehouse that are counterproductive to what they want to achieve because they don't understand. So they send conflicting messages. So we got to understand ourselves, number one. The second thing is we got to understand the influences of the organization. Where does the mission fit in? What is our purpose, the core values, the chosen culture? And that's number two. And then the third thing is you have to understand people. And I think those three things, understanding yourself in a leadership role, how you view yourself, how others view you, the influences in the organization that you do and do not have control over, you know, you can't, you can't. Maybe there's some things you can. One of the most common questions I get is, chief, our culture sucks. How do we fix it? Well, there's a lot of layers to peel back there. And then I gotta understand, I gotta understand people and, and that's challenging in this fire service with generational differences. You know, everybody's got different life experiences, different personal core values, different future goals. So, so I think just those three things right there we start with, then we can start teaching you how to get to. Yes. How to have conversations that don't immediately turn somebody off or offend somebody. How to, you know, get together and get, get some kind of decision that we've all compromised a little and now we kind of agree to it getting to. Yes. There's, there's a book about that and then, you know, getting people out of their comfort zone. Not, you know, in the fire service. The environment is hugely influential. That firehouse environment. If a person goes into a high performance fire company, chances are they're going to, they're going to be a squared away firefighter, but they go into the, to the, to the nuthouse. They're going to become one one of the, you know, if the environment has no expectations, human beings by nature lazy. And if I'm working my tail off of my days off, I'm raising kids and doing all this and I get a chance to go to the firehouse and relax for 24 or 48 hours, doesn't make me a bad person. It's just that there's no expectation on me unless I have this internal drive to do it myself. So, so understanding the influence of that, that, that environment, how important expectations and accountability. You know, I love these guys that say, well, if you're just meeting the standards, you're doing the minimum. Well, I get what they're saying, but a lot of departments don't even have standards, so, so, you know, hopefully they don't even have expectations. So you got to start with expectations, then we can talk about standards and then we can talk about exceeding the standards. But if I don't have any of those things in place, we're just, we're winging it for 24 or 48 hours at a time. It's something I call 26 hour leadership. And I, you know, I would hope that company officers would take a little bit of time before they walk in the firehouse to get their act together, to think a little bit about what they want to talk about at roll call, what direction they want to take the shift, then go in and practice leadership for 24 hours. And in the 26 hour, be honest with yourself. How did I do? Was I a positive influence? Did I move the fire company for this 24 hours? Did I accomplish the things I want to do? And that gets us our mindset for the next shift.
- [37:25]
Host
Wow.
- [37:25]
Scott Thompson
I'm throwing a lot of stuff back.
- [37:27]
Host
I love it. I love it. And I'm going to just highlight the reason I wrote it and took quick pause because I want to highlight. Because when you. Obviously everything needs a highlight, but I'm just going to say this for the listeners to. To catch up is the action item piece, right? You said take a blank sheet of paper. You got to understand your leadership philosophy. You know, get that down, write that down. Understand it, believe it, preach it, and be it. Understand your non negotiables. We actually talk about that on this show. So we'll do a quick segment on what a non negotiable is to Scott Thompson. But then the second action item is define what success looks like under your leadership. Formal and informal.
- [37:59]
Scott Thompson
So let me give you an example. Yes, please. Yes. So, and this is going to sound very elementary, but I'll define my vision of success for the Colony Fire Department as the fire chief. If the organization, if everybody on duty is committed to being mentally, physically, mechanically, and procedurally prepared, that's number one. Their heads right. Their body's right. Their stuff is right. And then Procedurally, they understand fog. 510, which is our fire ground operation. 510. That's the sheet of music that we all play off. So that's number one. Everybody on duty has got to buy into that. And then there are six things I want them to. To. To really focus on. Number one, maintaining a mission mindset. That's the priority for the day. Number two is taking care of people. But we got to define them versus us. How do we figure that out? What. What is our philosophy on that? Next is utilize all of our resources to prevent or solve problems. We're in the problem solving business. So how do we use all our. If we're using all our stuff to solve a problem, a problem solved is a win. The next is manage risk inside and outside the firehouse. The next is maximize our operational capabilities. And I use this example. When we redefined our pumpers, we, you know, it cost our citizens $1.5 million. We hired Dennis some beer. We brought them in and said, teach us how to maximize the capabilities of these pumpers. We owe that to our community. So maximizing the capabilities that have been given to us to do the job. And then the last one is minimize the zero impact period, the time from when we show up on scene until we start solving the problem. That took me less than a minute to describe to you, but if the Colony Fire Department system is doing that, I'm happy. Yes, I'm happy. But as a new firefighter, I was just able to describe to you what's important. A newly promoted captain, I was able to sit down with you and tell you what's important. So you can go back to your company and say, well, this is kind of what the old man is going to judge us on, so maybe we should understand it. But do you see how I kind of packaged it? But if you ask an engine captain, how do you define engine company success? Well, they're going to say, get out of the house quickly, get water on the fire quick. And those are all good answers. But, but we're not taking it to a level of things that we can kind of work on and, and, and really focus to, to really say, was this a win or a loss?
- [40:29]
Host
Yeah.
- [40:29]
Scott Thompson
Did we have a successful shift or did we just go a shift without anybody getting in trouble, anything getting broken and nobody getting hurt? Which is, is a desirable goal, but you really can't measure what impacted those things.
- [40:42]
Host
Change. Absolutely. And some of what you reminded me of. Dan Shaw was on the show and he talked about, you know, brilliant mind. Yeah. Talked about like the after action review and what you talk about, the PIAs and stuff and how you mentioned the 26 hours and after the fires. Like, well, how everybody do. Well, the fire went out and everybody got. Nobody got hurt. It's like, well, is that really success? I mean, the fire would have went out and no one would got hurt even if we didn't show up. So you can't. That can't be your, your, your measurement of success. Right.
- [41:06]
Scott Thompson
Is it probably going to be your number one answer.
- [41:08]
Host
There you go.
- [41:09]
Scott Thompson
So you want to say, you want to sit down and this is a, this is a cool drill you can do in a fireh. Just your company. Yeah. The next time you go to. Go to a fire or a pin job or a cardiac event, go around and ask everybody not what they did, but why did you do what you did? You know, we tell them what they're supposed to do, but when you say, why did you do it? You're getting in their head and you're starting to figure out the decision. Why did you pull the cross lane instead of the can. Why'd you pull a two and a half instead of the inch? And three, four. Why'd you pull. Why did you decide to go back, get 300 foot instead of 200 foot? And now you're starting to see what that mental representation looks like in their head. And everybody else is getting in their head. So it's not what did you do? Which is mostly what we asked after a pia. But why did you do it?
- [41:55]
Host
Absolutely. And not from a place of why did you do that? Because you should have done this, but just to grasp their thought processes, to understand.
- [42:04]
Scott Thompson
I want to understand the why. I don't want you to be a robot. I don't want you to just do 1, 2, 3, 4, though we offer that to help you. But I want to know why did you pick 1, 2, 3 or 4?
- [42:15]
Host
Absolutely. All right. The all anticipated conversation today, not to say that this is all, not all anticipated, but mentorship is something I wanted to lean on specifically with you. Chief training and mentorship is kind of where I've lived most of my or a lot of my career will say. I love doing mentorship stuff. I've loved learning what other people are doing, what other fire departments are doing. I know there's a lot of talk between there's informal mentoring happening, formal mentoring happening. Some people do it, some don't. Here's why some do and why some are not successful. Your name was brought. It was actually not related to this podcast, but I was having lunch with some mentors of mine, actually, and one of them brought that 49 page document. And it was the Formal Mentoring in the Fire Service. And it's a free download for the, for those listeners out there. It's a document. You can go to fireserviceleadership.com put it in the card, you purchase it, and it's 49 pages and it gives you an outline. You don't have to.
- [43:02]
Scott Thompson
It's free. You just got to put in some information. It doesn't cost you anything.
- [43:05]
Host
Exactly.
- [43:05]
Scott Thompson
Just put in your email, talk about.
- [43:07]
Host
That document and where that came about, why it's so relevant, because people are downloading it. I've downloaded it twice now. Once was five years ago, one was recent. And I always have it, you know, kind of by my side. But what, where, what sparked that? And I mean, where does that come from?
- [43:23]
Scott Thompson
So first of all, let me start off and say I have nothing against traditional mentoring ship the, the, the, the ones that most people refer to. And I say that because people say, well, a formal mentoring Process really defeats the purpose of mentoring because you're making people be mentors and it's not developing organically. I get it. I get it. And to anybody who's ever experienced a traditional mentoring relationship, it's a beautiful thing. The problem with that is, is that not everybody in the organization gets that opportunity. So that was the movement to call it a formal mentoring process. A process where everybody has the opportunity to be mentored. Now, this all started when I worked for Rick Lasky. I was Rick Lasky's training chief in Louisville. And when I got there, I kind of always like when I went to Lake City, he's very, very young, fire department, very busy. And so I had to really find a way to get experience, kind of hyper implemented and really learn from the things that we were doing because the growth wasn't waiting on us. So I kind of always was was mentoring and playing with it. But Rick Lasky really got me focused on mentoring. And we did something in Louisville called the mentor book. And then we built our step up process kind of based on mentoring. So that was kind of the first generation. When I got to the colony 17 years ago, I'm such a believer in mentoring that I say I believe mentoring is the future of fire service learning and leadership. Those organizations that embrace a formal mentoring process are going to have a much easier time navigating the future challenges with the people and the officers that are coming into our organization. So mentoring, to me is the only way that I know of where we can commit to a chosen culture, because that's heavily mentoring, where generations are passing from one generation to the next. Our chosen culture and the things that our organizational wants to value, not has to value, but. But wants to value. And it's really the only way that you're going to get true operational consistency and, and predictability is, is that. But now to do that, not only do you have to have a mentoring program, but you got to give your mentors the mentoring tools. So all this was going on, had great success with mentoring in Louisville and people just because of that started to ask me about it and I was going around giving talks and so forth. And so I just came in here to the office one day and just purged my brain of everything. I thought that a small department would need to consider and design a mentoring program. I didn't want it to cost any, but one of my goals is to get that in every fire department in America. What they do after with that is up to them. I've had well over 50,000 downloads and you don't have to stick to that. It's a framework. You can modify it and change it any way that you want. But I would say a large portion of the successes that we have had in the Colony, Texas have been a result of our commitment to a formal mentoring process. And so I'm just a huge believer in it. I've studied it, we found out ways to measure it and it's just really been. Now it's, it's not easy. And a lot of downloads. I used to, when I had a manageable number, I would follow up with departments that were trying to implement and a lot of them were fizzling out after a year. They just didn't stick with it because they were picking the wrong, wrong mentors. But mostly they didn't give their mentors tools. They created this mentoring model which is, is supposed to connect people and, and position the organization, these people for success in the organization. But I'm going to go back because they never took the time to define what success looks like. You didn't give these men, you were telling these mentors to teach something that they didn't have a curriculum for or the answers to the test. We, we're all in on mentoring in our organization. When you come in here, you're assigned a mentor and you're with that mentor, mentor in some degree. We have five phases in our mentoring program that's included in the packet. And it starts, you know, it ends up with, with kind of giving back. But we go through mastering the basics, preparing for the next level. And to me, mentoring is just a person with more institutional knowledge, investing in somebody with less. And we're helping you connect the dots. We're helping you understand the culture, we're helping you understand the operational leadership philosophy. Mentors also need to be coaches. I need to be successful at doing the job so I can demonstrate what the correct way looks like, how to throw a ladder or stretch a line. All mentors need to be coaches. Not all coaches are mentors. We have a lot of coaches in the fire service are real quick to tell you, hey, you screwed that up. But I don't have the knowledge to tell you how you screwed it up, why it's essential that we do it correctly, why we do it this way, and what the next phase of doing this looks like. And this is how you prepare yourself to get there.
- [48:47]
Host
Absolutely.
- [48:47]
Scott Thompson
Did I answer your question?
- [48:48]
Host
You absolutely did. I'm going to lean just a little further because you talked about like it's a 49 page document. It could easily Be downloaded right now for the listeners out there today. You talked about it. You know, it provides a framework, right? And the reason I bring that up, you don't have to follow it, you know, step by step, every single thing. But there's. There's information in there that will assist those mentors at any level. You know, even a probationary firefighter can be a mentor because they're probationary firefighters to themselves. They're teaching people above them. Shoot. They're teaching the people that are behind them in the recruit academies. But my point is, the framework helps us. It assists us because we're firefighters. We aren't professional. We aren't professional teachers or mentors. Meaning, like what? Pro. And I always talk about this. I was in the training division for quite some time. It's like, just because I'm a training officer doesn't mean I am an expert trainer. I just happen to be in the position. So I do need help. I need a framework. I need to know the playbook. I need assistance that helps me then become an effective instructor and teacher, to then become a good, effective instructor and teacher. So with that being said, I'm sure there's individuals out there, because I've talked about mentoring on this podcast, specifically many, many times, and there's a lot of individuals say, okay, do formal mentoring. There's obviously positive, negative things that work, something that won't work. They always talk about informal mentoring is how it has to be. But why is it that you think that many would say that we cannot have a formal mentoring process? I know you mentioned, like, a lot of individuals won't know the benchmark or what. What is the success look like? So.
- [50:16]
Scott Thompson
Because I don't want to put it. They don't want to put in the work to do it.
- [50:19]
Host
They want to put in the work.
- [50:20]
Scott Thompson
Put in the work to do it. I'll call it what it is. You know, to me, that's a silly statement, right? Mentoring has to be traditional. Well, why show me. Show me a book where it says that. That's an opinion, and it's a valuable opinion. I'm not. But it's like saying we all got to use smoothbore nozzles, right? Or we all, you know, we all got to use these type. Types of ladders. So to me, it's. It's. It's. Well, number one, it. You know, I. I'm comfortable with traditional mentoring. I don't want to learn something else. And formal. That sounds like a lot of work. I got to do some studying, and there's this rigid. There's this rigid thing that we all got to do. No, that's, that's not at all. The only difference between traditional mentoring and formal is that you have something in the. Where everybody can benefit. Because let's think about it. If you go to a good firehouse with a lot of squared away guys, chances are you are going to get a mentor and somebody who's going to invest in you. They're going to go out and work with you and they're gonna, they're gonna, they're gonna stick with you. You go into a crappy firehouse where the guy guys don't care about you, you're not gonna get mentored. And that's not your fault. That's. That's the position you were put in if you're not outgoing. You know, we love to give titles in the fire service. Oh, he's a little weird or he's a little stranger. You know, we size up people. And, and so if I'm not one of the cool kids, somebody's not going to seek me out and want to mentor me. So I get lost. I'm lost. Now nobody's mentored me and I miss that. That's the only difference is we're just creating an opportunity. We've got it to our organization where being a mentor is a privilege. It's not your turn. It's a privilege.
- [52:01]
Host
Absolutely.
- [52:01]
Scott Thompson
And when somebody doesn't. Isn't successful in our organization, the mentors take it extremely personally. So I would love somebody to tell me that mentoring has to be organic. Show me the book and I'll read it. I'll read it. But. But there's no science. It's an opinion.
- [52:18]
Host
Yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that. Because formal mentoring also have that debate.
- [52:22]
Scott Thompson
Tell me where, where I'm wrong in that. Is that it's, it's a mind. It's. It's a fireman mindset.
- [52:27]
Host
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and if you look at the right, you could pick the industry. And I always go back to professional sports, but we'll just use any industry. Right. So I'll ask chief, do you have mentors? Yeah, yeah. I mean, we all. Exactly.
- [52:39]
Scott Thompson
Let me tell. Let me tell you about something really cool. When I was a young, young fireman, I went to twos in Plano, which, which is right in the middle of town. They were regional hazmat and they ran two engine companies out of there. We had four person staffing. Well, Engine 22 was the citywide squad. Went on all the wrecks went on all the fires. And so I went there as a new firefighter. And they hadn't had a firefighter in years. Had some great senior men. Randy Stone, Kevin Wilkerson, I mean, really squared. Ernie Royce, and my first captain. Well, from day one, I would walk in that firehouse and, and there, there was usually eight of us assigned there. And from day one, we had a curb in the bay. All the members would sit there and I would stand in front of them and they would rapid fire questions. Day one, I couldn't even tell you how many wheels were on the fire truck. I didn't even know where the steering wheel was. So they would rapid fire questions at me for 20 or 30 minutes. But this is the cool part. When it was over and I hated it, I would get sick to my stomach. But when it was over, the members of that company saw where I was struggling. And one by one throughout the day, they would come informally and say, hey, let's talk about this, let's talk about this. So that they're investing in me. So. So nobody assigned me a mentor because this company was so close knit and they knew that for them to be successful, I had to be successful. They would work with me. That went on for about six months almost to the day. Don't think we ever missed a shift. And so, you know, I, I couldn't eat anything till that was over. Well, like on the sixth month, Cap calls us out there and everybody's sitting there going, all you guys, get up, Thompson, it's your turn to sit down. That was my rite of passage. So now I got to sit there and question all these guys who'd been questioning me for the last six months. And that was their rite of passage. Saying, okay, you're kind of now one of us. Well, what a cool experience that was. It had stress in it, it had uncertainty. But we were all working towards a common cause. Right? Well, I could have went to any of the other firehouses in Plano and not got that experience.
- [54:52]
Host
Right. Seems like the theme here is understanding what the mission is, understanding what success looks like and working toward a common goal.
- [55:00]
Scott Thompson
And then we have those mentors. This is traditional mentoring. You just get out of paramedic school or the fire academy and your men are. The first thing they say is, forget about all that you just learned. I'm going to tell you how we do it. Now. There's a thousand other ways to say that, but what did you. I'm proud of myself. I just completed paramedic school in the fire Academy, I worked my ass off, I studied. And maybe it's not what we do on the street, but if that's your first words to me, what did you just do to something that I'm proud of and I just committed. You just said, kid, it's not worth anything. Tell me where there's value in it.
- [55:32]
Host
Absolutely. Okay, so Chief, I got these three questions that line up with just this mentorship thing. In your experience, what's the number one trait that makes someone a great mentor?
- [55:43]
Scott Thompson
The willingness to invest for the right reason. So number one, you got to be wanting to give, right? You, you got to be, you got to give your time, your passion, your compassion. So you got, you got to give and then you got to do it for the right reason. It can't be about me. I want to be a mentor. So I get some young kids, tell them how great I am. Now you want to share your experiences, you want to share your wins, but if you just want that to be over somebody so you can make another one of you, that's probably it. So, so the willing to invest and to be open minded and to really want to do it for that person and not for you. So, so to me, that's, that's, it's got to start there because if you don't have that, everything else could be jacked up.
- [56:31]
Host
So with that being said, if it's any different, what mistake or mistakes do you commonly see in newer mentors or in mentorship taking place?
- [56:40]
Scott Thompson
Well, they don't have the tools, number one. So, so they got to make it up. And, and so now you're right back to everybody sharing their philosophies or opinions based on their experiences. And some of that's going to be valuable and, and some of it may not be. So we, we don't give them a, a common direction. We don't give them a road map to success. So that's part of the problem. The other problem I'm going to say is, is if people believe that it's my turn to be a mentor and not that I've earned the right to be a mentor, that's going to mess stuff up. You know, you, you get somebody in there who hates the organization and they're in a mentor role and all they do is spend the time telling you, let me tell you how, how to take care of yourself and, and all the problems that's wrong with this organization. You've done the exact opposite of what you want to do. So, so I would say that would be the answer to that one, one.
- [57:31]
Host
Of the liners that what I use in the kind of my signature line, I guess we'll call it is being intentional versus being accidental. So in this context, it's like to be a mentor, or you could just flip it around and say in your mentor, do you want that mentor to be there intentionally? They want to be there, they want to invest, they want to give their time and knowledge and experience. Or are they accidentally there? Because like what you said, is it their turn to now mentor?
- [57:53]
Scott Thompson
Right. Or somebody saying, you got to mentor the new kid?
- [57:56]
Host
Yeah, it's exactly.
- [57:58]
Scott Thompson
Because the space is in your firehouse.
- [58:00]
Host
Yes, exactly. So with that being said, now we talk about non negotiables. What is a non negotiable trait in a fire service mentor?
- [58:11]
Scott Thompson
Well, I think the first thing is, is that you have to respect men and women. You know, a lot of shenanigans do on a firehouse. And if you got a mindset where you're a bully, you know, you think your job is to be a hazer and break this kid down till he's sitting in the corner sucking his thumb, crying for his mom. You know, I think all those things, you got to be wanting to do it for the right reason, and it's got to be for the good of the whole. And so I think that certainly has to be a part of it. So the non negotiables kind of be as, you know, I'm, I'm not going to be a destructive force. I'm going to be a positive force. And so I got to watch my words and my actions so that I'm. We're moving in a positive direction. You know, everybody says, well, it works in the Marine Corps. You know, they break people down and build them back up. We're great in the fire service breaking people down. We suck at building them back up. And so, you know, I've, I've heard, I've heard firehouses say our job is to get rid of them if they survive our firehouse and they're, they're fit to be an XYZ fire department. Okay. You know, I, I kind of get it, but you're going to have more losses than your wins. So, so I think, you know, you got to define, you know, we're not, we're not going to pick on one person to, to get the, keep the heat off ourselves. I'm gonna provide accurate information. I'm going to do the work to make sure the information is accurate, not just what I think or what I saw on a YouTube that I'm going to try to pass on. So, so you got to be a student, you got to be a coach, you got to be able to demonstrate the stuff that you're talking about. So a non negotiable be. I'm not, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna talk about things that I don't have an understanding of that I'm not a student of. But it can't be about you. You can't have a crappy attitude. You know, you can't be self centered. I think all those things play into it. You got, you got to do it for the right reason. It's got to be something you want to do. It can't be something you're made to do do.
- [60:08]
Host
So I'm going to ask this real quick to see if there's like an example or a thought. So with mentorship being said and again, I'll just go back to sports concepts because it's just what I have in my back pocket. It's like there are some individuals that will naturally thrive in, early on in their career we'll say, right. But for a mentor and a leader and a company officer of that individual, that newer person, their job is easier, right? I never even want to say easy because leadership and mentorship is hard. It should be, it should take work. You should always try to get people to reach their potential, recognize and reach and surpass. But I think true leadership takes place when you're put in environments where you're helping someone that isn't already naturally gifted and already doing everything you know perfectly. Right. The first time you learn or teach, teach them something. That true leadership success takes place when you take an individual or a group or a team that's struggling and get you mentor them up to see success. So talk about that dynamic of yeah, we may not have the individual that is a rock star from the beginning, but as a mentor and leader, this is, this is where I'm at. And let's go. Because my job is now to take this individual or team and we're going to get them to exceed standards.
- [61:26]
Scott Thompson
Yeah. So it's a two part thing, right. We got to have the mentoring tools there and pick the right mentors. So and then we got to bring. So when I do my class, I talk about commitment first, then I talk about culture and then I talk about character. So character is to the individual as culture is to an organization. So hopefully we're bringing people into our organization with good character. So we got to assume that the people that are mentors at least have good character. If they don't, you got a whole nother another kind of problem. Right? So, so hopefully when we do our process, you know, we have a physical agility so they're capable of doing the job. They don't have a train wreck of a past where they're, we know they have character flaws. So again, it's going to have a lot to do in the environment. I have seen kids that, that young men, young men and women that, you know, the first month you look at them and go, oh my gosh, they're never going to make it. And then three months they're, they're doing really well. So it really goes back to that coaching and mentoring a relationship. A big part of mentoring is motivation. Is, is when I said it's two parts. We'll give you all the tools, but that person's got to meet us halfway. And we make that perfectly clear in our organization. We probably let go of above number of people in probationary period because if they're not meeting a standard, we're going to let them go where a lot of organizations will say, oh well, we'll, we'll keep working on them and 30 years later, they ain't got any better. And we've been stuck with this knucklehead for 30 years. Right? So, so if you're going to have standards, if you're going to have, have a process, there's got to be kind of a pass and a fail. This job is not for everybody, and we got to stop making it for everybody. But you know, we got to understand we got to have room for average. Not everybody's going to be above average. Right now my above. My average may be way above your average. My average in my organization may look above average in yours or whatever, but we got to have room for the people that are just going to be average. Not everybody is going to be a rock star, and that's okay as long as they're doing the job. That's why standards are important. If you got to have room for people that are just meeting the standards, because some this is a job and some they're all in when they're here. But when they leave, they're not going to listen to a podcast, they're not going to read a book, they're going to come back in. So we have to have room for those people. But what we want is a, is a, is a, is an environment, is a culture through peer pressure, not through the fire chief that inspires people to Want to be better the role models for what we want to be. So they're drawing people in. You're either going to have the majority of the people are drawing people down, or they're drawing people up. And I'll give you two examples from, from a book that's not Thompson stuff, but in Going Pro by Tony Kearns, he lists three levels of professional. So we would all like to think we're. Am I going too long?
- [64:24]
Host
No, no, I got, no, I got my, the book right behind me.
- [64:28]
Scott Thompson
Professional, Right. So a level one professional is competent enough to do a job that, that's, that's our level one. We got to have room for those. A level two professional is going to become whatever the environment expects them. They go into a high performing firehouse. They're going to be a high performer. A level three professional is somebody who is always pursuing continual improvement. Right. And I. You use a sports analogy. Tiger Wood still goes to a swing coach because he's looking for that little competitive advantage. So as a mentor, then, based on that research, my goal is to be. I'm gonna, I'm gonna get you, I'm gonna get you out of your comfort zone. We're gonna, we're gonna try to get you to continually improve each time we do whatever. All right, so, so we're getting you out of your mental and physical comfort zone is what we're doing. So that ties into three types of training. There's naive practice, there's purposeful practice, and have you heard these. Deliberate practice, naive practice, doing the same thing over and over again, thinking you're going to get better. There's no science that proves that happens. In fact, you're probably going to get complacent. Purposeful practice is when you go out and you focus on something. Stretching a line, throwing a ladder. A senior member demonstrates how it's done. He's going to watch you do it, give you immediate feedback, and you're going to do it until you meet the standard. The highest level of practice is deliberate practice. And that, that ties into a level three professional. Every time you go out, we're working, we're getting outside of our mental and physical comfort zone. That's where the gains come from. So just with those two things right there, as a mentor coach, if I want to create a rock star or an above average person, then my goal is to always challenge you mentally and physically to create a little growth in one of those two areas.
- [66:18]
Host
We talked about being average, and there's going to be average individuals at any profession. But that doesn't mean that person has to live there forever. You can take an average person that's been there for 15 years, but the right mentor, coach or leader then inspires and motivates those individuals to now they're no longer that average. They've been inspired enough to say, you know what? I am now that level two or level three type of a person.
- [66:40]
Scott Thompson
And we just defined our good company officers. Just defined what a good company officers. It's somebody who inspires people to be better right? At the end of the day, isn't that what we want? We want it. We want a number one. We want them to keep people from drifting towards failure. These little things that they do that collectively they're going to end up below average or getting in trouble. But really just think about all if all of our bosses just invested enough to get our people to motivate them mentally and then physically get them just a little bit better. Isn't that the lead? Isn't that what leadership looks like in the American fire service?
- [67:18]
Host
I believe so.
- [67:18]
Scott Thompson
Successful leadership.
- [67:19]
Host
I both successful leadership. Absolutely, I believe so. All right, this is all action item. If you had to give one tip for each of these three groups, one thing for them to start doing today, what would it be? The first group is firefighters. If you were to say, you know what, if you do this today, this will put you on the path of being a stronger mentor than you are.
- [67:41]
Scott Thompson
Now, what would it be? Well, that's easy. I mean, it's got to be a commitment to learning and skill performance. I mean, it's this, this. There's no around that in what we do. You have, you have to be knowledgeable in fire behavior, building, construction, you know, reading, smoke, all you gotta. You gotta start. I wish I would have. In my other days, all I studied was operational stuff, hazmat, and that was good where I needed to be. But I wish I was more diverse in my learning. So. So you gotta, you gotta start being a student. And it's gonna look different on day one because this will run away and will leave. You know, I go a year or two years and I haven't learned anything. I'm behind the eight ball. One of my biggest fears right now is company officers and senior men or women becoming irrelevant because they don't have that commitment to continual learning. So I would say for firefighters, man, day one, you've got to get it in your mind that your, your education starts and it doesn't end till you walk out the door. You're never going to get There you got to be a continual learner and a continual operator where you can perform at at least an average level, but hopefully above both.
- [68:57]
Host
There you go. And obviously that's going to apply to any level, but specifically to a company officer now.
- [69:04]
Scott Thompson
Well, okay, so we're going to assume that they're students, that they have the knowledge part. I have to say a commitment to. To invest. A commitment to investing part. The other part of that would be sacrifice. Those kind of go together. I know you said one thing, but invest would be number one and sacrifice would be number two. You know, when. When I. When I put on the speaking trumpets, I've accepted that responsibility. I took a process. And so with that response, I have to invest in my role and my responsibility. I have to invest in the people that look to me for leadership. I have to invest in my condition, continual improvement and development. I have to invest in the organization because I'm now a leader within the organization. I have to invest in the community because my fire company protects that community. So investment has to be number one and then sacrifice a close number two.
- [69:59]
Host
Oh, absolutely. Okay. The last group is chief officers. Obviously, we're hoping that they're continuous learners, educating, having that mindset, and then investing in sacrifices. They're already doing all the above. What can a chief officer do to continue being a strong mentor?
- [70:17]
Scott Thompson
Think like a fireman.
- [70:19]
Host
Simple. Doesn't have to be complex. Right?
- [70:21]
Scott Thompson
Well, the majority of our organizations are firemen. They make up the most of any organization. Everybody starts pretty much with exception, as a fireman. We like to call ourselves firemen. Right. Firemen have the greatest responsibility for fulfilling the mission. So, you know, and that's something I had to learn. And that's why I say I go to more firefighter conferences than I do fire chief conferences.
- [70:47]
Host
Is.
- [70:48]
Scott Thompson
Is I want to learn what's important to the majority of my organization. If I leave tomorrow, the Colony Fire Department still rolls out. If my organization leaves tomorrow and I'm the only one left, Scott Thompson's in a lot of trouble. So I would say number one, and then let me offer a second one. I know you just find a way to get to yes instead of just defaulting with no.
- [71:13]
Host
Love that we've. We've heard that. And that is. It's very powerful. Find ways to say yes. And that's something that. We had a conversation at the coffee table, kitchen table, if you will, pun intended, on purpose. Is. Is that exact concept. Right. Because we. We do get a lot of no's. Right. But yeses are wins. To the firefighters, the more we can find ways to say yes, the happier they become. Culture, morale start to increase. Because no is said a lot. Finding yeses are little wins, sometimes big wins.
- [71:44]
Scott Thompson
And there's a book on it, getting, getting to yes. But. But, you know, money is sometimes a factor. Political. All those things enter in. And if you can justify the no, that's okay. But if your default is saying no just because I don't want to empower you, I don't want to mess with. Gets me uncomfortable. None of those are valid. You know, I don't have the money for it. Okay, that. That's legit. Or. Or that's a way too risky. Those are job. Excuse me. Decisions I have to make as a fire chief. But I'll give you an example. We do something called Frederick's Friday, and Andy Fredericks has been a huge mentor of ours for years and years and years and years. And so a couple of years back, we put a squad in service, a New York style squad. And one of my firefighters, Mark Bond, came passing in the hall, say, hey, Chief, what do you say we name squad number at 18 after Andy Fredericks? Now, we're not in a county numbering system. It goes outside our, like our numbers 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 is what we have right now. So we're skipping 16 and 17 to go to 18. But what a brilliant idea. I mean, what a brilliant freaking idea. Do you think there's ownership on that rig now? That's an easy one. And you know when somebody like Dave McGrail comes in and says, hey, I want to see Squad 18. I mean, most chiefs say no. The next thing we got a number. We got a number at number 16 because we have 15. I mean, those are the kind of things that's an easy win. Chief Garrett Rice came to me and says, hey, want to put on the back of our rigs? We will come for you because we talk about it. So we put that on the back of our rigs and we buy into that. That's part of our mission. Those are easy. And we get our chops busted.
- [73:31]
Host
Right.
- [73:32]
Scott Thompson
But I mean, it doesn't cost as much, and it builds a mindset. And I can, you know, if we were here all day, I could give you story after story. That mindset has helped us solve some problems.
- [73:44]
Host
Absolutely. You are wanting to understand what affects the majority of the organization, and that was the firefighters. So understanding that concept is great because. Yeah, understanding what's important to the few, it's not that it's bad, but understanding what's affecting or it's going to do the greatest for the majority is it's important.
- [74:05]
Scott Thompson
Well, that's my job, is to do what's best for the majority. But that's with 90 individuals who in their mind have a better way of doing it. And that helps me get distracted. And when I say individual agendas, that sounds like I'm contradicting people coming in with good ideas. They're two totally different things. If I'm coming in with an idea to make the organization better or to solve a problem, that's not an agenda. If I'm coming in because I didn't pass the last promotional test and I want to get part of that change just for me, that's a totally different. Different thing.
- [74:41]
Host
Absolutely. You mentioned books, Chief. So you obviously being a lifelong learner, still learning today as the fire chief, going to firefighter conferences, still reading, still influencing. We have your book the the Functional Fire Company. What is one or two additional books you suggest our read listeners read?
- [75:01]
Scott Thompson
Absolutely. Essential is Deep Survival. Who Lives, who Dies and why.
- [75:06]
Host
That's right.
- [75:07]
Scott Thompson
That, that, that's, that's, that's a really big one for me. And I always reference that one man number two. You know, I guess I'd have to come back with that and, and say, what are you wanting to do? You know, are you wanting to try to build on a weakness? Are you wanting to. To become an expert in something or master something? I mean, I think Tribe is. Is a great book to read. I think Atomic Habits is. Is a great book to read. You know, I, I could go on and on. I mean, I'm looking at my bookshelf and what I'm currently. The, the laws of human nature are a big one, if you want. So if you want to understand people, those are the, the books that you kind of read. You know, Corley's book, the Nine L's is a great book. We want to go in the fire service. The stuff that Frank Biscuits, who writes on leadership is good. What, what Brian Bryce and Anthony Castro came out with is that, you know, the book of search. I believe the book of search is going to be a, going to be the standard for search, but that's very operational, you know, that's going to help you be a better leader from a competence standpoint as an operator. So, you know, poorly asked that all the time. I mean, it just depends what you really want to perfect what you want. You know, Jocko's books are all good. Those are getting motivated. But you got to ask yourself how is this going to help me be a better person in my organization? And a lot of times I just read for entertainment. I get one or two little quotes out of it, but I'm not necessarily really any better. So, yeah. What are the ones that are going to motivate me, are going to cause me to challenge or change my mindset? That's the books that you want to look for?
- [76:52]
Host
Oh, that's key. That's so key. Well, this is a great segue into the leadership challenge. And the reason I say that is you mentioned the book Tribe and earlier I had mentioned that you were leadership challenged by many, many individuals. You mentioned Corley Moore, Viscuso, Rick Lasky. They were all the origines, original east, the original challengers, we'll say challenges, but Rob Fisher was the most recent one. Him and I were chatting because obviously you know that he's from the Pacific Northwest. We were chatting just the other day through email and Rob was the guy that said, you gotta reach out to Scott Thompson. I'm like, yes, I do, because it's been a while since I reached out to him. But his book that he recommended was also tribe. And so this is a great segue into the leadership challenge. And so, Chief, we're here today because you were challenged by many individuals in the fire service. That said, Scott Thompson is a perfect individual to have come talk leadership. So for us to continue this conversation on leadership in the fire service, is there someone out there that you would recommend come be a future guest?
- [77:49]
Scott Thompson
Well, he's retired.
- [77:51]
Host
We have a lot of retirees on here.
- [77:53]
Scott Thompson
He's retired and he's not a big name. He's not in the speaking circuit. But Jerry Wells, it was a battalion chief in Louisville. And Jerry has done a brilliant job of really understanding the world we live in. And he's almost got a preacher type. Not, not preaching to you, but, but almost that motivational kind of gospel. But. And I can get you in touch with him if you can't find them. But, but, but Jerry Wells is, is a good one. You know, just because of my organization. You know, Garrett Rice is my training chief and he does a lot of these. He's got a great perspective. Mark combs is Battalion 9 in Dallas. He just came out and did some training for us. He's a good one. Daniel Deyer is another Dallas guy. I know you just asked for one, but he does some leadership training. Jonathan Patton, who's a B shift truck captain in Arlington. He, my son. He's, he's good on Try it Kind of depends what you want. But Jerry Wells, I think is. Everybody loves Jerry and he, to use your analogy, and I think he got it up there from, he's big on the be here now expression that's in firehouses across the country. And his whole thing is about your commitment. And while you're here. And he was a battalion chief in my battalion. This is what I expect. And, and I. He's proven very successful with the people in the shifts that he has, he has led. Very, very authentic, organic leader.
- [79:28]
Host
That's awesome. Well, thank you so much. So, besides you, Jerry Wells, I'll reach out to him. I'll find his contact info. If I can't find him, I'll reach out to you again, Chief, to see if he'd be willing to take up the leadership challenge to be a guest. And then I got these other names as well. So what I want to say is thank you so much, Chief, for giving up an hour and a half of your time today. It was great to, to connect with you. So, Chief, for us to help credit you. Not to say that you're looking for credit, but I always like to credit our, our guests for you giving up your time today. You teach around the country, you keynote, you wrote the book the Functional Fire Company. You write articles, participate in podcasts, you have multiple courses for individuals and teams to review and to purchase on fire engineering. So for any of the individuals looking or resonate with the message, you can find Scott Thompson in those routes. But how else do we find Fire Chief Scott Thompson if we're looking for him?
- [80:15]
Scott Thompson
Scott with two T's@fireserviceleadership.com that's it. And let me offer one thing. If you go and download the mentoring packet, if you're into training and specifically company level training, I have another packet on there. It's kind of a lengthy title. It's Training, Training basics and essential for the Suburban Fire Department. A starter kit. But in there, I talk about the training season, company preparedness, drills to establish standards. I talk about several different types of drills in there. So feel free. It doesn't cost a thing. Again, download both, both of those documents. You use them any way you want it. The only thing I ask is that you just don't start going around the country charging to teach those classes.
- [80:59]
Host
Absolutely. That is per. Thank you so much, Chief, for the continued resource, the continued helping others, because I actually don't have that download. I do have the mentoring. The fire service downloaded minimum three times over the last four years, but only because I lose my copy or leave one at work, keep it at home. But thank you for that, Chief. So with that being said, I want to say thank you again for being a guest. Before we close, what are your lasting leadership thoughts you'd like our listeners to walk away with?
- [81:28]
Scott Thompson
The fire service is in a transitional period, and like I say, my focus is not on the sitting fire chiefs or the active fire chiefs. I hope to influence future fire chiefs. And so my thought would be if. If you're a captain, if you're a battalion chief and. And you have figured out the art of leading a company or a battalion, give some serious thought to putting yourself in the chief's position. You know, the only way I think we're going to fix a lot of the concerns we have with fire chiefs are for company officers and shift commanders who have been successful, have earned the trust of the men and women to put themselves in that position. We have too many chiefs who come up through other ways, and they don't. They're not in tune with the majority of their organization. So I guess that would be if you truly want to make a difference. Nobody wants to. Well, some people do. I never wanted to be a fire chief, but I wanted the influence of a fire chief to. To contribute to what I call my fire service, the one that I love. So I would say, you know, if. Don't complain about it if you're not willing to put yourself in that position.
- [82:45]
Host
Perfectly said. Thank you, everybody, for tuning in today to the kitchen table. We truly hope you found this time valuable, and we hope we've inspired you to take action, to lead and to spread the leadership conversation. Till next time, be safe, be intentional, stay curious.