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Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table
Ep. 76: Nathan Travis, Battalion Chief - Unexpected Leadership
00:57:58
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- [00:01]
Nathan Travis
Being vulnerable in your failures is the probably one of the biggest key attributes of a leader. So when you make a mistake, take the time to tell everybody you made a mistake. You know, own that mistake. I think owning mistakes will go a lot further than owning the wins and owning the victories, especially in the leadership role. People will follow you more if they know you're willing to take the heat for the mistake that you made and not pass it off to somebody else. What's your emergency? The First Responder Liaison Network is proud to present to you the Kitchen Table podcast. Join us as we explore leadership from perspectives around the globe. From firefighters to fire chiefs, civilians to.
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Host
CEOs, our conversations have one simple goal.
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Nathan Travis
Build more leaders. Check for extension.
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Host
Good afternoon and welcome to episode 76 of the Kitchen Table. Today we're in Little Rock, Arkansas as we have Battalion Chief and Interim Assistant Chief Nathan Travis on the show and today's topic is unexpected leadership. Battalion Chief Nathan Travis has 32 years in the fire service, 56 years of combined service serving 31 years as a volunteer and simultaneously 25 years professional. Chief Chavez started his fire service journey at 18 years old in his hometown Volunteer Fire Department of Redfield. He received his EMT certification in 1996 and joined the Little Rock Fire Department in March of 2000 where he advanced through the ranks of firefighter engineer Captain. Now serving as a Battalion Chief as well as interim Assistant Chief, Chief Travis has degrees in fire service Management, Emergency response and fire Service Administration. He also holds an MBA in Fire Rescue Executive Leadership. Chief Travis served 17 years with the Burn center at Arkansas Children's Hospital as a burn Outreach Coordinator specializing in juvenile firesider prevention. He served as a code enforcement officer for his hometown for 10 years. Chief Chavez recently became an instructor for the National Fire Academy focusing on incident management and leadership. He's been married for 31 years and has six wonderful children, four of whom he has adopted and brought into his family. Good afternoon Chief. Great to have you on the show. How are you?
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Nathan Travis
Really thrilled to be here. Appreciate it.
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Host
Thank you. So I will say another Wolfpack member on the show, you were challenged by a minimum of three other people from the wolf pack going dating back to I think last summer. So thank you for being here. But before we just jump into this conversation and what I'm intrigued to learn more about is this unexpected leadership. But before we get there, do you mind sharing just a little bit about who is Chief Nathan Travis Family hobbies Maybe a little more on this journey to the assistant interim Assistant Chief role and possibly the Fire Chief role.
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Nathan Travis
Well, absolutely. And a lot of this we'll talk about as we get into this topic about expected leadership, because I don't really know how I ended up where I am today. That's. That's an unexpected part of it all. So, you know, started off following in my mother and father's footsteps. They were volunteers in the small town that we lived in. My father in law enforcement, volunteering, and my mother got into the fire service as the EMT and kind of stuck with me as I got a little older. So my wife and I married early, right out of high school at 19, and she was 18. And we were approached by the fire chief there in town as we would join. And sure enough, I moved on over there, found a love and a passion for it, and as they developed the fire department there, they were opening up the EMS. So my wife and I volunteered to become EMTs. My wife was already in nursing school, so it kind of fit with her. So we both joined the EMT side and started running rescue calls and helping the city grow its department as well. Moving on up that. I found that the fire service was a natural fit for me. Serving others is just a passion I've always had, and, you know, helping others and watching my mother and father do the same thing growing up in that small community, and it just. It just felt right. So as soon as I was old enough, I started applying to every fire department that I could find locally that was taking applications. And it took me five years to finally get on to accepted, got on with Little Rock, the largest department in the state of Arkansas. And, you know, my ultimate goal and passion was to be a firefighter until I retired and. Or maybe an engineer and go out that way. And no intent or desire to move up the ranks like I have. Honestly, if you would have picked my class of 32 at the time, through the academy that I graduated with and asked, you know, who's most likely to be a leadership position? I'd probably be, you know, 31 or 32 on that list. So it's the unexpected part of it.
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Host
Humility there. Some humility to start. I love it.
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Nathan Travis
You know, I didn't have that desire, that passion to. To do anything but to serve. And that was my goal. And we'll get into some of this as we. We talk a little bit more. But, you know, found a passion for it. As 10, 12 years into the job, I noticed some things that needed some changing, and nobody was stepping up. And that's kind of how my progression went from there to where I am today. So we recently had a fire chief move to a director spot here in the city, and it's opened up a hole and have the opportunity to move into this assistant chief job while we're waiting to see who's going to be fire chief. And I've thrown my name in the hat for that as well. If it works out, that's great. If not, you know, I'm happy as battalion chief as well. So, yeah, I enjoy doing that job, working and watching the men and women serve here. So I do have a. A passion for leadership. I do have a passion for education, as obvious through my. My little resume there that you read off. I do. I didn't have that passion early on in my career. I. I gained that passion, I guess, as I started seeing the need for me to move up in ranks. The passion to know the job led into the passion for education. And the more you learn, the more you realize you didn't know. And the more I didn't know, the more I wanted to learn, so. And that's where I am today.
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Host
Wow, that's. That's awesome. And before now, I don't even want to go to unexpected leadership yet. Because you said, you said so much that I, I want to ask on that, as you say you're happy as a battalion chief, but you said so much in the sense that you said you saw some areas needing change. You said things like needing to step up or wanting to step up. And you even said something even more key is like you said you're. You'd be happy just being a battalion chief.
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Nathan Travis
Right.
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Host
But there's a need and there's a hole. Can you talk about that dynamic? Because at all ranks in the fire service, there's certain positions, you know, roles, assignments that, you know, many of us will grow to just love, enjoy, and sit comfortably in, whether it be for five years or for the remainder of our careers. But there's also an element of stepping out and saying, you know what? I'm going to step into that role. Even though it was never a. A goal, I never, you know, sought it out. It was never a passion. But some people do. Can you talk about why you did that, why you continue to do that, but also, more generally speaking, why is that important for a leader to have that mindset?
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Nathan Travis
Well, it's actually a great question because the way it happened was it's. I'm sure it happens like this for a lot of people. So I moved over to the busiest station in the state of Arkansas, Station 15 on the truck company. And I had a captain who was a very great captain. A very poor leader, but very great captain. And he, he made me probably the worst version of myself at the time as a firefighter. Focused more on seniority than the right thing. So, you know, it wasn't my job. I was a senior firefighter. As long as I made sure the other firefighters were doing their job, you know, I was content. And it was the wrong mindset. And, and that goes to show the two captains or three captains I had before that, they weren't like that and I was a better version of myself. So your leadership reflects directly upon those who follow you. And good leaders make good employees and bad leaders make bad employees. And I learned that, you know, walking through it. I went and took the promotional test for engineer and taken it several times before just, just to show up and take the test because I was seeing the fall on the ship that I was working. So it gave me, you know, reason to be out of office for a little bit. And so I took the test, accidentally passed, came out number 32 of 32.
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Host
And 32 is a number around there. Okay, yeah.
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Nathan Travis
So 32 of 32 is a two year list. And I had, you know, at the time, there's no way it's gonna get to me, which I was fine with. You know, I just ended up on that list by accident. Wasn't preparing for it, didn't study well, ended up getting promoted. They promoted last five at the same time as we opened up a new fire station. So they moved me over to a new fire station. Long story longer. And I was all of a sudden an engineer. And it, and it hit me that I wasn't prepared for that job. I didn't know the job. I was not a good engineer. I didn't know my apparatus the way I should know it. And all of a sudden I have lives in my hands. You know, I have, you know, the ones going into the structure fire, I'm supplying the water. If something goes wrong, do I feel comfortable? Was, was I ready for that? And, and that revelation hit me that, you know, you can't fake this. I mean, you can for a while, but eventually it's going to catch up with you. So I took it upon myself at that time not to be that guy. So I jumped into the books as an engineer and started studying. And once I got very comfortable being an engineer, where I felt like I was really good, realized that I, I need to do more because then I started acting. Because you could act up, you know, into the next position. And I didn't want to be thrust into a captain's role and not know the captain spot. So I started learning the captain's job. So every time there was a next step, I made sure I knew that step before I walked into it. That's. That's kind of how my evolution started going. So I always, you know, worked one. One level above me to make sure that I was ready. And when positions opened up, I was able to step into them a lot easier without being nervous about the. The scared part of it of not knowing what I'm doing.
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Host
Yeah, you said. You said something very interesting. You said poor leader, great captain.
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Nathan Travis
Yes.
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Host
What.
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Nathan Travis
What.
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Host
What is that?
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Nathan Travis
Great captain as when the. When the bell hit, we made sure we went to work. You know, we did the things that we were supposed to do. We helped the citizens like we're supposed to help them. You know, we knew the job. As far as a leader, he did not motivate, he did not inspire. He did not make sure you knew the job, make sure you knew your job. He expected you to do your job, but there was no motivation in there. And. And that's what I would say. A poor leader, he did not instill in me the need to be a better firefighter. He did not steal the need and me to make sure that if he went down, I knew the job that he had to take, you know, so that's why I'm saying poor leader, great person, great guy to hang out with. Still best friends with him today. He's moved to Colorado and he's retired, but we still keep in contact. However, the leadership side of it was very laissez faire. We had a great time, you know, gym shorts and tennis shoes throughout the day. You know, we didn't have to put on uniforms. That was important. You know, so little things like that. Just, you know, you stopped being the part and just acting the part.
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Host
Well, that's. That's interesting because I. I resonate heavily with that concept because positions don't make leaders, and then vice versa. Well, leaders can make positions, meaning you can make a position amazing by the great leader that you are. But being in a position doesn't. Doesn't make you a great leader. But there are. Let's just go ahead and say there. There are plenty of those in the fire service or in any industry where there are great position holders. We'll say up and down in hierarchy of an organization, a command structure, but not all of them are leaders. How. I mean, the fire service being. I Don't even want to say it's unique because, again, it's probably. It's prevalent in many industries. But we do see a lot of individuals in leadership roles that lack leadership skills. How do we bridge that in the fire service? Are we getting better? In your 30 some years of experience, are we getting better?
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Nathan Travis
We are getting better. Early on, it was you emulated the leader you had ahead of you. There was not a whole lot of classes out there, not a lot of courses on being a leader or how to be a good leader. There was no really good development skills, no professional development. I think we've come a long way in the fire service in that realm. You can take courses just about anywhere now. National Fire Academy, Fri, fdic, you name it. You can find a conference just about anywhere. They're popping up, you know, everywhere. We got probably six different ones in the state now that'll pop up every year where they all hold some kind of leadership course. So there are ways of getting out there and learning, you know, the tactics and the skills necessary to be a good leader. And what you'll find, I think, out of all of them is how you treat others. And that's going to be the. The key to it. You know, are you setting the example? Are you motivating? Are you inspiring? Are you doing the part? And it's a lot more work than just showing up every day at the right time and doing your job. It's. You can order people new jobs, but when you don't have to order them, you're doing a lot better. You know, if they respect you enough to do it without the order, then you're. You're getting into that leadership realm where you're being a true leader.
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Host
Yeah, you as a battalion chief, for example, like, how do you instill that culture? Or how. No, not how do you, but how have you. Let's just go on the assumption here you're a lieutenant, company officer, captain on a battalion that didn't have that much culture in your shift. We'll say that was into leadership development. You step into the battalion chief role and now the interim assistant chief role, and possibly the fire chief role. Like, what if, you know, is that part of your game plan? We'll say, or was, you know, stepping onto the battalion chief role to make sure that leadership development was present with the company officers, the firefighters, the engineers, and if so, how. How did you do that? Or how do you do that?
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Nathan Travis
Well, love, that's going to be by, you know, don't ask anybody to do anything you're not prepared to do yourself. So I've. I've taken that to heart, and that's the way I've always operated. So if I ask my, excuse me, ask my firefighters to clean the restroom, they're gonna know it's because I'll go in there and clean it with them. You know, there's no hiding them. We, you know, we had an issue here many years ago when I first became a captain, a little bit of shift wars, a little bit of a department wars where we had another division or area that was asking my. My guys to do their chores, and I refused to let them. And I would go in there, and I did it every day for over a year and a half as a company officer. I would clean their bathrooms and clean their. Empty their trash. And my guys didn't like that. But it was a direct order from me that you're not going to be disrespected in this role. You know, that's not your job. They have people who can do that. They refuse to do that. So in the loo, I'll step in and do it for you. You know, so. And they respected that. You know, they respect the fact that I stood up for them and I was willing to do the same work that they would. Remember, the ones in that office saw that and some of them changed their minds and started pitching in and helping. And I think that's a lot of it. They will. If you emulate the right thing, everybody will follow.
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Host
Leading by example. Right. Modeling. Modeling the behavior before expecting the behavior. You're a new instructor at the National Fire Academy and you teach incident management and leadership. Like what courses are those? I'm curious because might need to sign up and maybe the listeners here will also sign up. What are some of those?
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Nathan Travis
It's all the command and control courses. So the incident safety, or, excuse me, Incident safety officer, Health and safety. Also all the command and control of incident operations, Target Hazards, Monthly alarm.
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Host
Yeah. Are they all at the academy or do you do any remote or is.
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Nathan Travis
It all remote as well? So the Pico, Stico and Domico courses, Australia decision making and company officer. Those weekends I'll do those leadership courses. I'll do those on the weekends. And I just signed up to start teaching the leadership class at National Fire Academy as well.
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Host
So is that the. Which leadership classes are those? Are those the. The five different ones?
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Nathan Travis
Just two right now. The Leadership supervisor. Leadership. Excuse me, Supervising in leadership. And also the EFO week long.
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Host
Oh, okay. Got it. Nice. All right. Well, there you Go listeners. You'll have to look out for those classes taught by Battalion Chief Nathan Travis. That's awesome. All right, let's get into unexpected leadership. I'm just going to lob that out there because I don't know where this is going to go. What is unexpected leadership, Chief?
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Nathan Travis
Well, to put it in a nutshell, it's when you recognize a need and you take the appropriate actions when no one else will. So I would say that's a good way to sum it up. So always working toward the next step. And this job, the fire service, all about serving others, you know, and that's at the key. Whatever you're trying to do in this job, whether it's self promoting, whatever, at the end of the day you're going to be serving somebody, whether it's the citizens department, it's you're serving. And this fire service, nothing but service. So walking past a piece of paper, no matter what your rank is, do you look down at it and say, you know, somebody should have got that, or why hasn't the trash empty? Or do you take a five seconds and pick it up yourself, you know, so, you know, being there where it matters. That's what I would say as well. So you, you know, really understanding your personnel around you, you know, do they have needs that you can meet, you know, and are you authentic with that and are you trusting with that? So when you see something, do you just say you're going to help or do you, you know, make action to actually help preparing yourself to step into the next role above you? So, you know, putting in the study, putting in the time. Do you, do you understand what your company officer's role is ahead of you? Do you understand what your engineer's role is? I mean, we go into some pretty critical calls from time to time and anything can happen. Are you able to step up when the time comes? Even the small things? You know, I started off, we had a need here in the department for computer system, in the new CAD system and then it went into radios. Nobody was stepping up to get that stuff done. We had brand new radio sitting in it's warehouse for almost six months, you know, and I was like, hey, I've got time, give it to me and I'll do it. He's got the radios out. Then it went into computers, delivering those around all the stations, get them installed. We had them sitting in a warehouse for months, you know, just nobody would take the initiative to do it. It's always somebody else's job. Well, I'll step up and I'll go do it. You know, nobody volunteered for the cad, you know, and stuff that we need on the fire department to make our jobs better. Nobody was taking the initiative to get it done. So in lack of anybody stepping up and seeing that need, I stepped in, you know, and it gave me accesses to areas above my pay grade and, and things that I had to learn. And. But it's. What needs to be done is the right thing, you know, to help get things done. I mean, apartments are big, a lot of moving parts. Some things get overlooked. Well, if you see it, instead of complaining about it, get it done.
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Host
Absolutely. So when you, when you say, like doing something when no one else will, I mean, let's go ahead and go from transitioning from, let's say from, from being on the shift being operations to a date and admin position. It's, let's just go as far as to say, like firefighters, okay, no big deal. Now I want to say no big deal, but we'll step up or act up into an engineer or company officer role. As far as getting those firefighters to step up, let's just say it relatively easier than what I'm about to say. How about when you step up into, say, the battalion or captain role and you say learning to step above. So for example, asking or learning the position above, you say the administrative chief's role, right? So say you have your large department with, you know, 20, 30, 40 captains or 20, 30 or 40 battalion chiefs and there's 20 administrative chiefs. Does it apply there too? Where those battalions or captains should be learning to step above them, the administrative roles above them. Does it apply there? If so, why, why is that?
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Nathan Travis
It does apply there. I like the concept of never having a single point of failure. So a lot of times he's a battalion chief or a administrative chief or somebody in a special position. They'll take all that knowledge and they'll keep it to them. You know, they, they the only ones that know the passcodes. They're the only ones that know who to call. They're the only ones who, you know, can. To get access to this or that, you know, they only wants to know where the keys are. We've all been there, you know, so all of a sudden when, when they go down, they fall down, they're sick, they're off work, or they get mad and they quit. Then all of a sudden everybody's scrambling, you know, like, who do we call to get this done? Now this is overlooked. This has gotten forgotten about. So I don't like single points of failure. So learning those roles will help eliminate a lot of those single points of failures. You know, what can I do to help? You see you're struggling, you haven't got time to this. So let me step in there with you. So I think it's very important for those battalion chiefs to learn administrative roles. Case in point, what we're dealing with right here in Little Rock. One day my, my fire chief decided to take the director position that was open here in the city, and the very next day we're all bumped up. You know, so I haven't served in assistant chief role, but I have served enough doing all these other roles that I know the position, so I know what he's been dealing with. I can step in here a lot easier. I know the, the context that he has across the city. And so now that made this transition a lot easier. Nobody's scrambling, so. So it's very important to keep those single points of failure from happening.
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Host
Absolutely. So can I ask about the culture at Little Rock?
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Nathan Travis
How.
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Host
I mean, obviously this is Chief Travis's mindset in the sense that you have adopted the. I'm going to learn the step above me. I'm going to learn the assistant chief's role being that how many. We'll say how many. How large is Little rock?
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Nathan Travis
We have 433 personnel.
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Host
430. Okay.
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Nathan Travis
BCS 20, 25, 12 BCS on three ships.
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Host
Oh, 12 pieces. Okay. So do the 12 BCS act up and or less less specific, know the roles above them? We'll say Chief Travis does, but have the others. And if not, well, the reason I asked the question is have them to ensure the ease or smoother transition. Say if several administrative chiefs, you know, were to leave the department, not just the fire chief, are all having that mindset.
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Nathan Travis
We do have several. We have a very young battalion chief list currently. We have a few that are on the way out, but the rest of us are going to be around for a while. And I will say there are a good handful of those, maybe not quite half, but a good number of us that we are willing to step into the next role and learn the next role. And I think a lot of that is where you're at in life, obviously. So if you're toward the end of your career, you're not going to waste the time to move up another role. You'll help where you have to, but you're not going to take the time to. To get great at it. And the younger guys, I think they See the need, they're learning it. They. They see me obviously doing everything that I'm doing. And some of the younger ones are trying to follow suit as well. So they'll call me, like, hey, what classes have you gone to? What? Listen, why do you do this? And I'll share with them everything that I've done and why I do it. And I think that it's contagious sometimes.
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Host
Absolutely. Oh, it is contagious. You're right. You mentioned you'll never be ready, but you can always be prepared. And I love that. Something I'm going to mention here, I want you to kind of see where it goes is Simon Sinek. He said, you know, leaders can take all the credit when things go right. You know, they can if they want, but as long as they're also willing to accept all the blame or take all the responsibility if things go wrong. So we see across the fire service, across organizations that blame. There's the leaders cast blame up and down, right? Wrong or indifferent. Maybe not so much as blame per se, but we'll say lack of ownership, to go even more, whether it be generally speaking or even more specific.
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Nathan Travis
For.
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Host
Example, supporting our mentoring, you know, as we talked about, you know, learning up, learning the role above. You talk about the underdevelopment of others and how that's a shared responsibility. But yet, even when little things go wrong, you hear sometimes people say, well, that isn't my fault. How important is the philosophy of it is it's both parties fault, so it's everybody's fault up and down the chain in command, if there's a failure. You talked about single points of failure. The single points of failure. What you're talking about is it's the lack of succession planning, it's the lack of the individual wanting to learn, the step above them. It's the system in place that didn't allow for that to take place. So can you talk about all that, that dynamic and how do we, you know, continue to. To make sure that everyone is prepared?
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Nathan Travis
We don't have a set professional development here in Little Rock. It's something we've always been striving to get to. We've gotten better over the years. We have some places that we're doing better at as far as succession planning and professional development to build each these people up. I think what's come a long way is the mindset of a lot of our captains and our company officers watching some of these chiefs that have moved up in the ranks here lately, the battalion chiefs who are Go getters before them and emulate that need to know the job. So as far as placing blame, you're going to have that no matter where you go. But what I would say is you had Scott Booth on not too long ago. Now, another part of the wolf pack talking about vulnerability. And I think being vulnerable in your failures is the, probably one of the biggest key attributes of a leader. So when you make a mistake, take the time to tell everybody you made a mistake. You own that mistake. I think owning mistakes will go a lot further than owning the wins and owning the victories, especially in the leadership role. People will follow you more if they know you're willing to take the heat for the mistake that you made and not pass it off to somebody else. So I would definitely say that as a personal characteristic that you have to work on. Personally, I don't know if you can learn that you have to push your ego aside, you have to push your pride aside. And, and that's something that a person individually is going to have to work on. But at the end of the day, if you, if you mess up, you need to say you messed up and you need to apologize for it and, and make amends or offer solutions. And how are we going to get past this and take full ownership of it? So same way we go to your victories. I mean, if you were working on things and it benefited everybody, don't go out there and expect or in demand the praise for it. You know, I think I shared that quote with you with Harry Truman, that it's amazing what you get accomplished if you don't care who gets the credit. Yep. That doesn't work well for failures.
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Host
So that's right.
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Nathan Travis
You can spread around, you know, so it doesn't matter who gets that credit. So being prepared as far as learning your, your job and learning the job ahead of you or learning, you know, what you need to do to be a better firefighter, better captain, better company officer. Learning that next chapter, especially when it's outside your comfort zone or your, your known experiences, is probably one of the most important things you can do on this job. I tell my firefighters that they always ask me, we got a bid process where they can move around the city in vacant spots as they come open and senior, senior bid gets it and they'll ask me if they should bid on something. I always tell them, I said, I'm not going to tell you whether you should or should not bid. What I will encourage you do. Is this move going to make you better? Is it going to challenge you Are you going somewhere where you can be comfortable? Are you going somewhere where you're going to be challenged? You know, because if you're going somewhere where you're going to be comfortable, I suggest you rethink it. You know, the city of Little Rock is stretched long ways east and west, and we have some very plain areas where it's fields and industry, and then it goes to the west, where it gets into the mountainous regions and starts the foothills of the Ozark Mountains. So we have some very different firefighting techniques across the city. I would say we have four different zones in the city. So I tell them also, you know, if you want to be a great firefighter, move outside your comfort zone, spend about four years in a battalion, move to another battalion, move to another station every four years. Because what happens when you first move to another station? Everybody's been there. You're nervous. Yeah. You're on edge. You start jumping into your district book. You start learning this station. You go through all the equipment again. What happens after two, three years? You're not doing that anymore. You know, you quit doing it. You stop challenging yourself. You stop growing. So sometimes in order to grow, you have to be uncomfortable.
- [28:40]
Host
Absolutely. So you. You have that conversation with your. With individuals in your battalion, meaning there are some individuals. We'll just. We'll just say it. That will move to a battalion, move to a station, move to an assignment, because they want to. They're seeking comfort. They're seeking, you know, my job is easier here. Right. And I'm not trying to say this in a. In a negative fashion, but it just is what it is. But you will have the car. I think. I think it starts with. With conversations like asking someone, why are you going here? Here's my thought on it. If you want to become the best at what you want to be or reach your goals, you should or should not do this. But these conversations don't always happen. Right. They're just gonna say, there's battalions out there. There's, you know, individuals, other leaders out there that aren't even going to have the conversation. Or even. Let's just go on the other extreme. Yeah. I mean, that'll be an awesome assignment. And you'll. You'll. You'll be comfortable. You'll have a great time. You won't run that many calls, and, you know, and you're just not gonna develop that much. And, you know, that's the extreme. But those conversations happen. So let's talk about that very briefly in the sense that, like, you are number One are just going to go out and have that conversation and be honest with people. You go here. Yeah. You probably are going to develop, you're probably not going to learn that much. You could, you could learn in any situation. Right. And I don't, I don't want to neglect that you can learn in any situation. You can make the boast of everything. But in the sense from a leadership standpoint, you will go out and say, and be honest. Yeah. If you go here, you might not be as developed as if you go here. Here's why I think you should go here. Talk about that.
- [30:05]
Nathan Travis
Yes. And it all comes down to I'll ask you, what's your end goal? You know, why are you moving here? Is it be closer to one of your buddies, close to the friends you feel comfortable? You know, you need to really think about what your end goal is. I mean, if your end goal is promotion, if your end goal is to move into an officer role, then this probably is not the place you need to go to learn to do that, you know, and I'll just give them the examples and I'll, you know, encourage them to rethink it. I won't give them the answer. I won't tell them, no, you don't need to do this. I just encourage them to take a moment and think and I, and it's humbling that they'll even come and ask, you know, my opinion.
- [30:36]
Host
Absolutely.
- [30:37]
Nathan Travis
Always remained approachable and I've always remained honest and, and they respect that. So being approachable is a good thing about being a leader as well. So if you're not approachable, they won't come to you, ask you anyway, and you're, you're always going to have those ones. You know, one of the leadership classes I was in, they asked, what do you do with your slugs? Yeah, so everybody knows what the slug is. And I told him, I said, you know, my slug does the bare minimum, you know, that they are meeting the standard, you know, and you're going to have those, you know, there's nothing you can do about it. You're going to have those guys who come in, they're happy with, you know, showing up at 7 o', clock, you know, doing the shift change and then waiting for somebody to tell them what to do. They're doing the bare minimums. They get a paycheck for doing the bare minimums. They don't go above and beyond. And they are what they are a lot of great guys that they're happy and they're comfortable, you can't. You can't knock that. But the ones who don't want to be slugs are the ones that are going to have to step up. They want to learn, they want to go about, you know, they see another tool, they want to say, hey, can we do that? Or, hey, there's another software out here. What do you think about this, Chief? Can we get it in our department? You know, and I don't discourage any of that. I said, well, bring it to me. Bring me a proposal. Let's. Let's take it up the chain and see how far we get. It might be great. You know, there's always going to be those attributes with financing and money and stuff that always stop a lot of the stuff. But, you know, it doesn't hurt to ask. And I don't want them getting discouraged by me just saying, that's a dumb idea. You're not gonna do that. So you even take the ideas that I don't totally agree with, I'll still run those up the chain just to see, you know, I may be looking at it from a wrong perspective.
- [32:10]
Host
So I'm gonna, I'm gonna key in on something here because you said something so important. You said that you appreciated the fact that individuals came to you to even ask your opinion in the first place, because even that we miss sometimes or don't see all the time. Like some individuals will just. Again, I'm not saying that this is wrong or so on and so forth, but will move battalions, move shifts, and just do it quietly and just. I'm going to go here, I'm not going to ask anyone's opinion, but the fact that you as a leader, two things. Number one, we'll have people that will want to come to you because they believe in you, they trust you, they believe in your honest feedback and opinion on things. But then secondly, like, those individuals are in that mindset of like, they want to seek feedback on. On an opinion before making a decision versus just saying, I know what I'm doing. I got this. So it's really just. It's leadership in all in all in all areas, right? That individual seeking feedback and opinion, but then also the leader themselves that they're reaching out to is. Has built a reputation enough to where people will come to them. So, I mean, those are, Those are just awesome attributes that's really just going to lead us into where I want to go here. So, Chief, you and I, we were chatting the other day, and after 32 years in your career, you recently joined the FEMA USAR team and like I said, 32 years battalion chief acting up into an assistant chief role. But you had mentioned that you went and got back all your shirts right? You went through all the week long trainings that it took to get all the spec ops disciplines this late in the game. And we were talking about the why explain why.
- [33:40]
Nathan Travis
So I just turned 50 this past July. So I'm no, no spring chicken. By no means. However, there was a vacancy in our USAR commander position. So one of the chiefs that was over our use our teams and making sure they were getting their training and getting their certifications and making sure that the program is going in the right direction was off on extended entry leave. And there was a lot of questions getting unanswered and they were calling saying hey, we're out of equipment, we need this, we need that. And I just saw an opening. I was like, it's not being filled. So I moved over and asked if I could take over USAR until he returned. And he said, I do one better, you can just have usar, you know. So I said okay. So I started leading the guys in USAR and making sure they were getting their equipment. Come to find out that there were a lot of certifications that were getting pencil whipped or pushed aside, not taken seriously. And it's like anything else, you know, we had a great use our team for many, many years and has Matt and all those things. But you know, when things are going great, people don't focus on them as much because they're focused on problems. And when you're not focused on things that are going great, they fall apart, you know. And that's kind of what happened. And I wanted to use our team to get back to the level that it was that I remember when I was younger firefighter and so I told the guys that I I'm going to work alongside them and we're going to bring this program back to where it needs to be. I've never been a user guy, never had the certifications, never had and you know, other than basic stuff. So as we put the new use our members through programs, they had to, you know, go to the hazmat tech school, had to do surface water, swift water, rope tech, you know, operations and all that stuff. So every class I enrolled right beside them and I took all the classes with them. I did all the repelling off the bridges, into the rivers, onto the boats, you name it. And, and I've done it right beside them and I've gained more respect doing that than I Have doing anything because they're willing to see that even at my age, I'm not going to lead somebody without understanding what they're doing, you know, and that was. That's basically what it boiled down to. You know, as a battalion chief on operation side, there's no way you're going to remember everything that you've got to remember from, you know, High Rise operations, HAZMAT operations, USAR operations, Wildland operations, you know, you're not going to remember all the ins and out and you have to, you know, fall back to your, your team leaders. Well, I don't want a team leader coming up to me saying something off the wall. We're gonna have to, you know, do a high line here. And I'm like staring at them like, what's a high line? You know, So I want to have that understanding. So I don't want to lead anybody without a full understanding of what I'm leading. So that's why I stepped up beside them and went to the classes with them. And they respect it now and they understand that I'm. I'm there with them, there to fight for them and that they can come to me with anything.
- [36:25]
Host
Yeah, that's really a big commitment there, Chief. And again, leadership, as we mentioned, it doesn't have a rank, doesn't have a tenure, but yeah, 50 years old and battalion chief, acting. Acting assistant Chief. It's.
- [36:36]
Nathan Travis
I felt every day. But I will tell you that after.
- [36:39]
Host
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. All right, so let's go to the pivot Chief. So we understand. I mean, we've talked so much about. Well, I'm just gonna highlight here. I see the theme today is, you know, you see an opening needs to be filled. Right. Talk about leaders needing to step up to fill roles. That's what it's all about. But now talking about, like, pivots in career, because I believe that there's always things that happen to our, in our career, planned or unplanned, that take place, that help propel us into a direction that we can, you know, oftentimes attribute to, like, I am here because of what happened here I am in my position, or I gained this success or achievement because of this assignment or role. And so in your, in your case, Chief, if you can, one decision, one assignment, one role that you can kind of attribute and say, you know what? I remember this, even if it was 30 years ago, and this kind of put me in the path of where I'm at today. And this is the reasons why I.
- [37:35]
Nathan Travis
Think everybody has these Pivotal moments, obviously, and some of us ignore them. Some of us take it for the lesson that it is. So the one I shared about becoming an engineer by accident, and that was the first pivotal moment in my career. So that's the one that made me realize now I'm not following orders anymore. Lives are in my hands and I'm not prepared for it. So that was the very first pivotal moment I had at Station 15. And I went immediately to a new station, opened it up. There were so many things about opening a new fire station, you know, in that same role that I saw. There were hydrants that were missing in the city, there were inspections that had to be separated between other battalions. Anyway, so there's a lot of work to be done that I just poured myself into trying to be a better engineer as well. The second pivotal point was when my company officer that I had at that time, he and I were best friends. Still best friends. We came on the job together, we had a difference in leadership opinion. And I realized the only way I'm going to be able to to prevent this from happening is to be the better leader. So I immediately started studying and wanted to become a company officer because I wanted to instill what I felt like was great leadership skills into my employees, into my cruise. So I took the captain's exam and I studied and I poured into it. And I didn't want to be the same outcome as I had on the engineer exam coming out dead last. So I came out number one on the captain's course and I took it very seriously. So that was very pivotal moment as well. I got assigned downtown at the central fire station, where I'm at still currently. And everybody asked, you gonna bid out immediately when you get here? And I'm like, what's the one area that I have never worked? And I felt uncomfortable people in. Every time I open up the engine bay door, I'm looking at a 42 story skyscraper and it just makes you sick to your stomach. Like, you know, that thing is burning. What's next? You know?
- [39:26]
Host
Absolutely. Wow.
- [39:28]
Nathan Travis
Knowing that I was uncomfortable, I chose to stay right here until I felt comfortable downtown. Yeah. So that was my second pivotal moment. I saw the lack of leadership. So I first pivot moment was the. My personal lack of discipline. Second pivotal moment was the lack of leadership that I saw in job. And then when my mentor, Chief Valentine, decided to retire, or right before he started to retire, he said, the battalion chief list is coming up. Are you going to apply? I said, I have no desire to be a Battalion chief. I don't want to do that job. I love being a captain. I love being a company officer and leading my crew. And then he said, well, did you see the last battalion chief list? I said, yes. He goes, who do you want to work for? For which one of those is a good leader? And my head kind of sank. And I was like, well, I don't want to work for any of them. He said, so if you don't want to work for a bad leader, why don't you be a good leader and start changing the culture? So I took the test, came out number two on that list, and here I am today. Never intended on being a leader. It just seemed that the more I poured into my. My crews, the men and women on the job, the more they respected me, the more I gained their trust, and the more they asked me to take the next role. And when I saw the need, I stepped into it. So there's several moments that seem to keep happening.
- [40:53]
Host
Wow, that's so powerful. Number one is we've talked the first 40 minutes today talking about seeking discomfort, seeking roles that'll push you out of your comfort zone. But then you just said something even more important that I had actually never even heard yet. At least no one actually vocally say it. But then you said you stayed in the discomfort, right? It's one thing to push yourself out there and then having the opportunity to then leave it. You said something above it, and you said, I continue to stay there when you had an opportunity to leave. So, I mean, I think that's just so key in the sense that, like, we. We need to challenge ourselves, leaders need to challenge themselves to become better. And you do so by being uncomfortable and then not running away the first chance you get. Staying in there and continuing to grow propels you to that next step. One thing you said, so, Keith, also is, I've heard this from many great leaders is the concept of what you said in the terms of, like, if you be the leader that you wish you had, right. If you don't want to work for, you know, Captain ABC or Battalion Chief abc, become a captain or become that battalion chief so you can then be the leader that you said that you wish you had. So with that being said is how do you study leadership to make sure that you are an individual where others aren't saying, well, I don't want to work for that individual, so they won't, because that's. It's a revolving door that you don't want to keep happening. Right. Well, I'm going to step up because I don't want to work for xyz. But then you step up, but then others are just saying that about you now. Right. So we also, we want to break that, that, that culture. We want to break that norm. So in Chief Travis is like, when we talk about studying leadership, what does that look like? And how are you putting yourself in a position to where it's like, no, I want to make sure I'm someone that people do want to work for.
- [42:37]
Nathan Travis
I think the best thing you can do, obviously, is serve everybody around you, no matter their position, no matter their rank. If they're cleaning toilets, to writing your their name on your paycheck, you serve them equally. Nobody has more power than the other when it comes to serving. So I will definitely say that's probably the, the first step in leadership is being a servant. There are times to be authoritarian. Don't get me wrong. I mean, that comes with everything. But if you even serve those that you authority over, I mean, that goes a long way as well. So studying for it. There's books out there that you can get. I mean, there's a plethora. You name it, you can get it. In fire service, there's hundreds of thousands of books. I mean, I've read many and many books, pretending one right now that I. That I thoroughly enjoy currently, but I'm gonna pick up another one right after that, and I'm gonna thoroughly enjoy it too. So there's a lot of good nuggets. I go to conferences, I go to seminars. I put myself in places where there's education. I always try to grab one nugget. You're never going to remember everything out of anything you do if you just grab that one nugget and apply it. So that's the biggest thing. No matter what you learn, if you don't apply it, you didn't do anything. Yep. Take it, learn from it and put it in its place. I definitely say, just get out there. Get out of your comfort zone. Go outside of your bubble. The National Fire Academy is a great place to go to. I will say that every class I've ever taken, the National Fire Academy, I walk in with that same feeling that I had here my first day at Central Fire Station. Like I'm in over my head. These people know more than I do. I'm uncomfortable. And you'll realize by day two or three that you know, you know more than you thought you did. There's still a lot to learn, and you're not the worst one in the room.
- [44:15]
Host
You know, I guess that's key. And I'll just repeat that now. Actually, I'm gonna ask you to repeat it because I don't remember all three that you said is we should find ourselves in that. Those spaces. Yes. So say that again. I don't belong here. So say that again.
- [44:28]
Nathan Travis
Yes, I don't belong here. I'm not the smartest guy in the room. I'm uncomfortable. You know, bam.
- [44:33]
Host
I love that. We should all find ourselves in those spaces. And if we're not, go seek those spaces where we feel exactly what you just said. Because I think that is where you're going to grow the most. And I think that's. I think that's kind of our goal. Right. Whether it's intentionally or accidentally, I'll say sometimes. Sometimes we, you know, we go through periods of our career, right? Just say, you know, you're starting a family or just, you know, you just finished a big, you know, apprenticeship program, and you don't want to go right to the next step in the company officer book. You want to relax. We'll say, quote, unquote. But sometimes accidentally putting yourself in those roles and then stepping out, like, oh, my gosh, I'm so glad I did that. No different than an assignment, right? So you got forced. I noticed an apartments will force individuals to go in admin spot because if it's your turn because you got promoted at a certain time and then, you know, how many individuals have you seen, Chief, where it's like, oh, I got to go to this assignment, Right? Of all those individuals that stepped into assignment that they didn't aspire for or to, you go back a year or two later, how many of them would said, I'm so glad I did that. Right? Because of the perspective, the learning that they never would have otherwise gained, Right? So I think that just.
- [45:38]
Nathan Travis
Yeah, that's where I go back to that, you know, you're never ready, but you can be prepared. You know, every new assignment that you have, every new class that you step into, you're always going to have that gut check, you know, like, I'm not ready for this, but unless you stay in it, you're never going to be. You know, that's what I would definitely say. That's where you become prepared. You stay in it. So you feel it.
- [45:57]
Host
Stay in it. Sign up, stay in. All right, Chief, you're talking to new firefighters, okay? We're talking about action item time. A group of new firefighters. Hey, it's the recruit academy or new probation of Firefighters that just hit shift and you're going to give them some, some advice based on your experience. What would you tell them regarding unexpected leadership or just developing early one?
- [46:20]
Nathan Travis
I always tell everybody, I got a lot of guys come in here and the first thing they say coming out of recruit school is, you know, I can't wait to get to your position. I can't wait to be an engineer. I can't wait. You know, as soon as I'm eligible, I'm going to take the next test. And I always slow them down for a second. And I remember, you know, pace yourself. This is a very long career. You know, your times are going to come, but I need you to focus on excellence in the basics. So know where you're at, know your job, and know it well. Once you know it well, then move to the next level. Start learning that spot and know it before you step into it. So you'll benefit tremendously from the understanding of the next rank, inside, inside and out. Before you step into that role. And I think it does a lot better if you know yours. You know your basics, you know how to catch the hydrants, you know how to stretch the hose lines, you know what tact is going to be used. You know what your company officer is going to ask you to do before you even do it because you've studied what he's doing, you understand why, you understand flow paths, you know the things that we overlook. A lot of times you know the basic skills. And then we build on that, you know, so a lot of times we want to jump in there, we get our, our year done or whatever your standard is for your rookie school and you push that off and everybody starts looking to the next promotional test, you know, and then they're on cruise control until that hits. You know, there's no, there's no cruise control. Education never stops. If it does, you become stagnant and you get poor at your job.
- [47:41]
Host
Love that. Love these analogies. There is no cruise control. Gotta keep pushing, gotta keep developing. Love it. All right, with that being said, how about the step up? Let's talk about an emerging leader. It doesn't even have to be a company officer. Let's say an individual that's emerging in their role. They, they see themselves as now leaders in the organization, instructors, maybe a new company officer. What's some advice you'd give them?
- [48:01]
Nathan Travis
Well, I go back to the quote by General Patton and it's always do everything you ask of your, of those you command. So I would definitely tell them that. So General Patton shared a story one time where they were having trouble getting tanks across the creek and they were all getting stuck. So he jumped in the tank and drove it himself and, and forced it across this creek. He popped out the other side, jumped out, and everybody looked at him like he was crazy. He's like, I'm not going to keep asking y' all do this if it's not possible to be done. I just showed you it's possible. I've done it. Now you do it. And everybody got across it after that in those tanks. So always do everything you ask of those you command. You know, if you're grew in your team, are successful on an individual basis or in a group basis, then you'll be successful as well. Absolutely love that.
- [48:49]
Host
It doesn't have to be complex. I, like, I always say, like, it's sometimes it's the simplest words, phrases. Exactly. Examples that we can just do and then do it and, you know, you'll see success as well. Inspirational leaders. Chief, so we just talked so much about knowing the next role. We just talked about leadership and mentorship. I'm sure you've had inspirational leaders in your career and in your life. Would you mind sharing one of them? And if so, why were they so influential on you?
- [49:14]
Nathan Travis
Yeah, I've had many and I will say that. And some of the guys in the Wolfpack have had the pleasure of meeting. He teaches at the National Fire Academy now as well. So if you ever get a chance to meet him, if it's retired Battalion Chief Scott Valentine, he's my mentor. I took his spot here at Central Fire Station. That was my. My goal when I moved up was to continue on his legacy. Very humble, very great leader, all about serving others, all about vulnerability. Inspirational. You know, he's one of those. He didn't have to come in the room and yell at you when you weren't doing what you were supposed to do. He would come in the room and just a nudge, hey, you guys see how dirty the windows are out there lately? And then walk away. And it wasn't two seconds later, everybody was on their feet with scrub brushes, you know, because they respected him enough to do the work. You know, he didn't have to braid them. He didn't have to, you know, shame them. He didn't have to shame me. You know, maybe one little hint and I knew, hey, I'm missing something here. Let me go figure it out. He. He inspired me. He motivated me. I would not be in the position I am today if it wasn't for him, honestly.
- [50:19]
Host
And you mentioned Scott Booth earlier, and when we talked on the show, he talked a lot about vulnerability, like you said. But I would ask because it's always good to hear another perspective on things. Vulnerability is not necessarily a word or a phrase, a characteristic that jumps out at people when they're thinking leadership per se. Right. I'm not saying that it's not important. I, I, it's very, it's non negotiable. You got to be vulnerable as a leader.
- [50:41]
Nathan Travis
Leader.
- [50:41]
Host
But not everybody is, not everybody embraces vulnerability. Some people see vulnerability as a weakness. So can you talk very briefly on vulnerability? It's important in, in an effective leader and why you see vulnerability as a trait that inspired you, especially in your mentor, Scott Valentine.
- [51:01]
Nathan Travis
Yes. I didn't really even put vulnerability as a word until after I heard Scott Booth talk about it, you know, and then it go like, wow, that, that's kind of what we all do. Every good leader that I've been in contact with is because they were vulnerable, is because they shared their flaws. They've shared their weaknesses, they've shared their failures. They've shared the things that have made them better, and they're open and honest about it. It wasn't always about the wins and the, the certificates or the, you know, what they've done or the accolades they have on their, their chest or the ribbons they're showing. It was always the failures. The failures always speak louder than the achievements and how they got past those failures and stood up and kept walking. And I think that's the most important part of the vulnerability piece as a leader is to, you know, pull your guys aside and say, hey, I made a wrong call here. I screwed up. You know, going forward, we're going to try to do better, and I'm going to try to do better myself. You know, I think that is something that we miss a lot of times. We think that being a leader is all about doing the right thing and always the right thing. And if you don't do the right thing, you know, it's got to be somebody else's fault, because I would never do the wrong thing thing. So I think getting past that part and setting aside the pride and the ego when it comes to people's lives, people's, you know, habits, people that you serve and showing them that, hey, I'm human too. I make mistakes and we're gonna get past this together.
- [52:22]
Host
Yeah. Yeah. I think vulnerability. Yeah. I mean, you said it so well and Scott did as well. What goes along with vulnerability too It. It gives other people permission to also be a vulnerable. Because if you're not vulnerable in the way you lead and the actions that you take and admitting mistakes and failures, the people. The people that you lead are also not going to. And so, you know, one. One way of, you know, learning is obviously learning by failure, learning by trust, learning by putting yourself out there over and over again, and, you know, learning and failing together to grow. And so I think vulnerabilities, as you mentioned, it's just. It's just so key. And I. I can understand why, you know, one of your most influential mentors or why they are so is, you know, likely because what you just said is vulnerability. Well, Chief, with the name of this show being the Kitchen Table, I like to ask this of most. I guess I don't get around to.
- [53:08]
Nathan Travis
To.
- [53:08]
Host
To asking this for all of them. Share one of your fondest kitchen table conversations and why.
- [53:14]
Nathan Travis
I'm gonna be honest. I will say every kitchen table conversation is important. Been around the kitchen table now for, like I said, 32 years, my fire service, and it's where I've learned the most. Every single conversation has some value to it, even if it's just a bunch of joking around and, you know, horseplay. You know, guys just, you know, and the gals just picking at each other. Even that's important because that shows that they trust each other. That shows that there's a level of respect in the room. And. And when the bell hits and they all jump up and they leave the table, as a lot of times in Taiichi Pro, I'm sitting there with my plate and the bell hits. It's not for me. They all take off, and I watch them all run out of the room together, and I watch them move as a unit, and I'll jump on the rigs and they're pulling out. It's inspiring. It's inspiring to watch from this level now not being able to, you know, on the task level anymore, but seeing them move together, going from that kitchen table where they're just joking around as soon as they stood up when that bell hits, that trust is there. You can see it, you know, I got your back. I got your back. I got your back. And a lot of that's developed right there at the kitchen table. We're sharing stories. We're sharing, you know, events in our lives. We're sharing our failures and our successes. We're showing our wins. We're even talking about history of the fire department. You know, hey, you remember when this guy did this this guy did that, did this. So the history of the fire department is coming back up, and there's lessons in that. There's valuable lessons in history. You know, we don't want to repeat the mistakes that we've made in the past. So I would say that every single conversation around the kitchen table is the most important one you'll have.
- [54:48]
Host
It's powerful, Chief. They're powerful nuggets here. I love it. Well, Chief, we are. We're here today because you were leadership challenged by, I mentioned earlier, three to five individuals from the wolf pack itself. If that doesn't speak, speak, you know, enough, I don't know what does. But leadership challenge, as you know, it allows us to continue this conversation in leadership. Is there someone out there that you would recommend coming out to the show to share their perspectives and experience on leadership for us to reach out and have a future episode?
- [55:17]
Nathan Travis
Yes, I'd like To recommend Kevin McDonald, the newly appointed Deputy chief or district Chief of Holyoke, Massachusetts. I did have the pleasure, I will say off a side note, to actually travel up to Massachusetts for St. Patrick's Day and march alongside his crews in his department and to watch the men and women there and gather around him and his leadership ability, his Paris, his command presence. They all respect him. They all love him. From either of the neighboring departments that were around him as well, everybody came up to Kevin. I mean, they look for him for. For ideals. They look for him for leadership, for mentorship, for. To develop themselves. It was evident the whole weekend that I spent there and talking to people how much they idolized him and adored his. His candor, his. His leadership skills. So he'll be a good one for you to have on here as well.
- [56:08]
Host
I'm excited. I do know Kevin from. From the Wolfpack text thread, but not. I have not had a sit down nor a zoom conversation or phone call to talk to Kevin. So we look forward to it and yet have another Wolfpack member on the show. So thank you for that. You're over there in Little Rock, Arkansas, teach at the National Fire Academy. How else can we find Chief Travis?
- [56:27]
Nathan Travis
If we're looking for you, hit me on Facebook. You can get me on, you know, all the good social post. Reach out to me. I'm an open book. So if you've got a question, I'll be glad to share it. You can reach me on my email if you'd like or give me my phone number. I'll share it.
- [56:41]
Host
There you go. Awesome. We'll reach out to Nathan Travis again. He is teaching at the National Fire Academy, several classes. So we hope that you're able to resonate today and also reach out to him for further if. If you so desire. I do want to say thank you again, Chief, for spending the time with us today. But before we close, what are your lasting leadership thoughts you'd like our listeners to walk away with?
- [57:04]
Nathan Travis
I would say always show respect. The respect that you want from others, show to everybody, regardless of their rank. Respect the rank, whether you like the person or not, show them respect. If you can resonate with them or not, show them the respect. They may have not earned it themselves, but their position has or what they're going through in life has. Always show them respect and serve them anyway, regardless of how you feel about them. And then you know you have to bite your tongue. You bite your tongue, but you still show them the respect. So I will say that no matter who they are, always show respect. A time will come when they will remember that. And if they don't, those watching will.
- [57:44]
Host
Thank you everyone, for tuning in today to the kitchen table. We truly hope that you found this time valuable and we hope we've inspired you to take action, to lead and to spread the leadership conversation. Till next time, be safe, be intentional, stay curious.