Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table

Ep. 77: Phil Jose, Deputy Chief (ret.) – Curiosity
Host: Berlin Maza
Guest: Deputy Chief Phil Jose (Ret., Seattle Fire Department)
Date: August 21, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores curiosity as a central trait for fire service leaders and instructors. Retired Deputy Chief Phil Jose, known for his teaching on tactical decision-making and “reading smoke,” joins host Berlin Maza to discuss building a culture of inquiry, developing instructional craftsmanship, the value of non-judgmental debriefing, and how curiosity supports continuous personal and organizational growth. Practical examples, strategies, and actionable guidance are shared for all organizational levels.

Key Topics and Discussion Highlights

[00:00 – 03:10] Opening & Guest Introduction

• Dedication to Deputy Chief Bill Mack, podcast co-founder, embracing his legacy of significance and planting trees for the future.
• Phil Jose’s background: 30 years with Seattle Fire Department, extensive teaching experience, and passion for developing tactical decision-making curricular resources.
  • "I enjoyed every minute of that for sure." [03:10, Jose]
• Transition into retirement, continued teaching, and family/life updates.

[03:10 – 12:54] Tactical Decision Games (TDGs) & Training Scenarios

• TDGs are online, scenario-based exercises hosted with FireEngineering.com to develop real-world tactical decision-making.
• Drawn from Marine Corps “Tactical Decision Games”—not about right or wrong, but about why decisions are made, and understanding critical factors in play.
  • "It's not really about whether any individual decision is right or wrong. What it is about is understanding the thinking behind the decisions." [10:45, Jose]

Notable Segment

• TDGs require a facilitator with a base perspective of curiosity, not judgment. [12:54]
  • "Their base perspective has to be curiosity and not judgment. Yes." [12:41, Jose]

[12:54 – 21:24] Feedback in Training: Cultivating Reflection

• Current TDG tools haven’t automated detailed feedback, so emphasis is on group or self-reflection and peer learning.
• Real-world simulations challenge clarity, common language, and communication within fireground operations.
  • "We think we have a common language. But we don't." [16:35, Jose]
• Instructor note: Effective learning happens not through perfection, but consistent, reflective improvement.

[21:24 – 31:01] Instructional Craftsmanship: Building Effective Instructors

• Jose explains his “Instructional Craftsmanship” course, focusing on developing instructors’ skills at the front of the room—not just technical knowledge, but engagement and questioning strategies.
  • Traditional lecture method is least effective—guided discussion and open-ended questions foster learning.
  • "You have to learn what questioning strategies are, what's a good question." [32:27, Jose]
• Importance of psychological safety to encourage participation.

Notable Quote

• "If the first 10 questions that you ask as an instructor, you immediately provide the answer, you are guaranteeing that your students are not going to answer any of your questions the rest of the time that you're in there." [26:36, Jose]

[31:01 – 47:30] Developing a Culture of Learning & Teaching

• Systemic change toward a learning-oriented organization is slow, but pays dividends—especially in large organizations.
• Effective instructor development can prevent costly failures and improve new recruit success.
• "Invest in the people...their return is going to be there. We're just more comfortable investing in stuff." [53:29, Jose]

[53:41 – 66:30] Curiosity as a Cornerstone of Leadership

• Curiosity enables leaders and instructors to root out cause and effect, foster innovation, and avoid complacency.
  • "I've always been a curious person. I've always been somebody who, who asked why..." [54:16, Jose]
• Discusses “satisficing” (from Gary Klein’s RPD model): Under pressure, people choose the first solution that seems workable—not always the objectively “best.”
  • Mistakes are often traced to gaps in experience, training, or institutional support—not moral failings.

Notable Quote

• "The curiosity has to come. Like, okay, how did they make this decision? What were they thinking about? How are they trained? What does their experience level say? These are all critical factors." [56:45, Jose]

[66:30 – 81:05] Training on Curiosity & Navigating Resistance

• Curiosity is an innate trait, but routinely suppressed by institutions and education; leaders must actively revive and reinforce it.
  • "We systemically breed curiosity out of people." [66:48, Jose]
• Resistance to inquiry often stems from fear of mistakes or desire for predictable outcomes, but mistake-based learning develops decision-making under pressure.
  • "The source for the actual change is, is through being inquisitive about everything that's happening and how it's working out." [64:31, Jose]
• Changing culture requires persistence, coalition-building, and often subversive “stealth” tactics—building cadres of like-minded instructors and outlasting resistance.

[77:47 – 91:18] Replace Judgment with Curiosity

• "Replace judgment with curiosity."—Dissect decisions by seeking to understand, not to blame.
• Top-down (judgment) approaches erode trust and growth; curiosity-driven debriefings uncover training needs, support recovery from mistakes, and foster innovation.
  • Leaders must ask: What information did the decision-maker have? What cues did they value or miss? How can we train this better?
  • Vulnerability is key—opening up to the unknown, and being willing to admit gaps.
• "Curious leaders prevail." [91:18, Maza]

[93:12 – 101:08] Action Items for Firefighters, Officers, Chiefs

For New Firefighters:

• Keep asking “why.”
• Become deeply competent in fundamentals, but always question standard practices for possible improvement.
  • "You can't think outside the box until you know not only what's in the box, but how the box was built..." [94:50, Jose]

For Company Officers:

• Balance confidence with continual self-doubt about “what you think you know.”
• Leverage lateral and downward influence, build supportive relationships for innovation.

For Chief Officers:

• Seek out resources: books, research, training on curiosity and questioning.
• It’s difficult to instill curiosity late in a career if it’s never been developed, but it is possible with effort, humility, and a willingness to iterate.
  • "If you're not interested in what's happening, you're falling behind." [104:11, Jose]

[108:12 – End] Book Recommendations & Leadership Challenge

• Book: Intuition at Work by Gary Klein qualifies as required reading for all fire service leaders, offering essential insight into decision-making under pressure.
• Quote: "You have a duty to understand how your mental process works and to train it appropriately and to understand its weaknesses and try to mitigate those weaknesses." [108:12, Jose]
• Leadership Challenge: Jose nominates Nick Papa (author of Coordinating Ventilation) for a future episode, citing his excellence in translating research to practical tactics and leadership.

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• "Their base perspective has to be curiosity and not judgment." —Phil Jose [12:41]
• "Telling is not training." [32:29]
• "If the first 10 questions that you ask as an instructor, you immediately provide the answer, you are guaranteeing that your students are not going to answer any of your questions the rest of the time..." [26:36]
• "We systemically breed curiosity out of people." [66:48]
• "Replace judgment with curiosity." [77:52]
• "Curious leaders prevail." [91:18]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• TDGs and tactical decision-making: [03:10–12:54]
• Instructor development and questioning strategies: [21:24–31:01]
• Fundamental role of curiosity in leadership: [53:41–66:30]
• Replacing judgment with curiosity: [77:47–81:14]
• Action items for all ranks: [93:12–101:08]
• Required reading and leadership challenge: [108:12–113:22]

Final Thoughts from Chief Jose

“It’s going to go by a lot faster than you think it’s going to go by… In the end, it’s about each interaction and making sure that you’re taking the opportunity to build the relationships and to build the culture around you… But whatever those opportunities are, you’ve got to go for them. You cannot wait for them to come to you, because... you’ll be waiting a long time.” [116:25]

Resources Mentioned

• Ignitionpointtraining.com – Phil Jose’s website for training info.
• Art of Reading Smoke (course)
• Tactical Decision Making & TDGs (fireengineering.com)
• Instructional Craftsmanship (course)
• Book: Intuition at Work by Gary Klein
• Book: On Being Certain (discussed in context of overconfidence)
• Book: Telling Ain’t Training (recommended on questioning strategies)
• Nick Papa: Author of Coordinating Ventilation and recommended future guest

Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is both practical and philosophical, full of humility and hard-won insights. Jose balances storytelling and tactical advice, constantly circling back to curiosity as not just a leadership trait, but as a way to sustain a culture of professional growth, service, and mission effectiveness.

For those who want to become better leaders, teachers, or teammates in any profession—start with curiosity, keep asking why, and never stop learning.