Podcast Summary: Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table

Ep. 78: Brian Fennessy, Fire Chief – Mission Driven Culture

Host: Captain Berlin Maza
Guest: Brian Fennessy, Fire Chief, Orange County Fire Authority
Date: September 4, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Captain Berlin Maza sits down with Fire Chief Brian Fennessy to explore the practical, experiential, and deeply personal journey of leadership in the fire service. With decades of experience from wildland hotshot crews to metropolitan fire departments and now leading the Orange County Fire Authority, Chief Fennessy shares how a “mission driven culture” can be intentionally cultivated—emphasizing the importance of authenticity, continuous growth, empathy, trust, and transformation at every organizational level. The episode is loaded with actionable insights for both aspiring and established leaders, illustrating how leadership is less a destination and more an ongoing journey.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Chief Fennessy’s Leadership Journey

• Background & Beginnings
  • Grew up in a large family in Southern California, struggled academically, and entered the workforce at 18, influenced by his father’s decisive, Navy-led parenting style.
  • “If you’re not working, not going to school, haven’t enlisted in the military—you’re not going to live here.” ([04:46])
  • Entered fire service at 18 via the forest service: “Next thing I know, I’m off with this crew... for the first time in my life, I felt I was good at something.” ([06:00])
• Early Leadership Roles
  • Became a hotshot foreman (now “captain”) at 24: “Hard to imagine at 24, somebody allowed me to supervise a module of 10 hotshots.” ([07:16])
  • Career advanced through the US Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, San Diego Fire-Rescue Department, and eventually Fire Chief roles.

2. Leadership as a Continuous Journey

• No End Point

  • “Leadership is not an end goal. It’s what you become along the way.” ([04:30])
  • “Watch out for the guy that says, ‘Oh, man, I made it.’” ([13:23])

• Self-Reflection & Growth Mindset

  • “You have to work on it. I try to learn from my mistakes, do a lot of self reflection. Why did that irritate me, is that my ego talking?” ([12:21])
  • “You have to be honest with yourself to grow.” ([12:39])

3. Intentional Leader Development—Not Leaving It to Luck

• From Luck to Systems
  • Historically, departments relied on “luck” for good leaders; Chief Fennessy advocates intentional investment in leader development: “You can do a lot for developing yourself by reading... but it’s up to the individual to pursue that.” ([11:38])
• Cost and Accessibility
  • “You don’t need big budgets for all of leader development. There are inspiring resources on YouTube, books, and more. The responsibility begins with the individual.” ([12:10])
• Programmatic Changes
  • Pioneered mandatory developmental courses for promotion in San Diego: “If you wanted to take the captain’s exam, you had to have this course. And ultimately, they’d say, ‘Man, I wish I had that 20 years ago.’” ([19:27])
  • Brought in Mission Centered Solutions for field experiential training, weaving it into culture and promotional processes.

4. Building Mission Driven & Intent-Based Culture

• The OCFA Way & Organizational Doctrine

  • Set out to systematize the culture with "The OCFA Way" and an organizational doctrine: “The OCFA Way sits on my desk as a daily reminder—it's that important.” ([14:30])
  • Differentiated between “who we are” (values) and “how we make decisions” (doctrine).

• Empowering Decision-Making

  • Rejects rigid paramilitary culture: “The business we’re in is so dynamic you can’t have a rule for everything... I expect my people to break policy—responsibly—when time is compressed and stakes are high.” ([30:57])
  • “Last thing we want in ops is someone not doing the right thing because they’re afraid of reprisal.” ([32:10])

5. Culture Change & Buy-In

• Earning Trust & Authenticity

  • “Had to earn trust as an external chief in Orange County. Part of my plan was visiting stations and truly listening. Nowadays, people want to see you, want you to be present.” ([24:30])
  • “Firefighters will sniff out a phony in a heartbeat.” ([25:48])
  • Successfully revived “The OCFA Way” after noticing that newer staff didn’t know it—a key to regaining cultural identity.

• Peer Accountability

  • Empowered division chiefs to own the doctrine; created mutual accountability: “There’s nothing better than peer accountability. You calling me on my stuff—I'll listen to that a lot more than my boss giving me crap.” ([30:57])

6. Leadership Traits & Advice

• Authenticity & Empathy

  • “Be authentic. People know who you are, you don’t have to change who you are fundamentally, but recognize your new responsibilities.” ([45:04])
  • “Empathy came late for me… Now, I profess we need to treat people with dignity. I look back and I’m kind of ashamed of how I treated people earlier in my career.” ([46:12])

• Vulnerability & Openness to Change

  • Admits mistakes and personal transformation: “I was a horrible leader, thinking I was leading like I should. But I had to learn it.” ([53:54])
  • Encourages others not to be ashamed of realizing their need to change: “If you’ve been a terrible leader for 20 years, don’t be ashamed to change. Recognize it, transform, don’t worry about what people say.” ([51:20])

• Continuous Learning

  • “I’m still reading, going to staff rides, learning what I can... You gotta want it, knowing you’ll never get it perfectly.” ([43:11])
  • Believes strongly in mentorship, even if the term wasn’t used in his day: “Now at this part of my career, I love seeing those I’ve mentored do the same for others.” ([41:21])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Cost and Responsibility of Leadership Development:

  • “There’s a cost to leader development, but there are things that don’t cost a bunch. It’s up to the individual to pursue that.” ([11:38])

• On Facing Discipline for Good Decisions:

  • “Do we really trust our people to make decisions? We train them well, equip them well—but do we want them to act, even if it means breaking policy, for the best result?” ([16:45])

• Culture in Action:

  • “You want people to listen and follow? That can be trained. Is leadership nature or nurture? I’m the proof that it can be learned.” ([53:54])

• On Leadership as Influence:

  • “If you want to move up and have more influence—because that’s what leadership is, ultimately, right?—you want that to be positive, to change people’s lives and help.” ([63:32])

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Chief Fennessy’s Early Career & Leadership Start: [04:46] – [08:55]
• Leadership as a Journey, Not a Goal: [10:36] – [13:23]
• Intentional Leader Development vs. Luck: [13:42] – [20:39]
• Implementing Mission Driven Culture & Accountability: [22:33] – [32:55]
• Practical Tips for All Leaders (New, Officers, Chiefs): [45:04] – [50:08]
• Embracing Change, Learning from Mistakes: [51:20] – [53:54]
• Recommended Reading & Resources: [55:27] – [59:10]
• Leadership Challenge (Next Guest): [61:08]
• Final Thoughts on Leadership Journey: [63:32]

Book and Resource Recommendations

• Team of Teams by General Stanley McChrystal

  • “He really spells out the difference between complicated and complex, and shows how empowering people at the lowest level leads to better results—even if there are mistakes.” ([56:00])

• The Invisible Gorilla by Christopher Chabris & Daniel Simons

  • “Explains a lot about how your mind works, why people miss things right in front of them... gave me some insight into how mistakes happen.” ([58:07])

• General Advice:

  • Explore TED Talks, YouTube, and books for ongoing self-development, especially if the department lacks training budget ([65:24]).

Tangible Takeaways / Action Items

• For All Leaders:

  • Be authentic—don’t fundamentally change who you are, but grow and accept responsibility.
  • Practice empathy and strive to understand your people—know their stories, challenges, strengths.
  • Commit to being a lifelong learner—read, seek mentorship (formal or informal), continually reflect.
  • Don’t be afraid to change and improve, even if you’ve been “doing it wrong” for years.

• For Organizations:

  • Make leader development a regular, required part of all promotional processes.
  • Build culture intentionally, not relying on luck—document and live your core values and decision-making doctrine.
  • Support systems of trust, empowerment, and responsible risk-taking.
  • Foster peer accountability at all leadership levels.
  • Recognize and reward positive leadership behaviors publicly.

Memorable Leadership Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On Self-Reflection:
  “You have to work on it. I try really hard, try to learn from my mistakes, do a lot of self-reflection... you have to be honest with yourself, truly honest, if you want to grow.” ([12:21])

• On Changing Culture:
  “Pushing out the mission driven culture initiative wasn’t too hard [in San Diego] because we had buy-in... here [OCFA], I was the external guy—had to earn trust from these guys.” ([23:10])

• On Trust and Empowerment:
  “I expect my people to break policy... the business we’re in is so dynamic, you can’t have a rule for everything.” ([30:57])

• On Peer Accountability:
  “There’s nothing better than peer accountability—you calling me on my stuff, I’m going to listen a lot more than my boss giving me crap.” ([30:57])

• On Vulnerability:
  “Just because I’m the Fire Chief doesn’t mean I’m the smartest guy in the room—I’m still that same knuckle-dragger, they just gave me another badge.” ([43:31])

• On Lifelong Growth:
  “I’m still reading, going to staff rides... you gotta want it, you gotta try to be better, understanding you’re never going to get it perfectly.” ([43:11])

Leadership Challenge — Next Guest

• Chief Fennessy’s Pick: Mark Niemeyer, Boise Fire Chief and President of the Western Fire Chiefs Association
  • “Mark’s honesty, transparency, and vulnerability are unmatched, the troops love him, and he’s driven real culture change.” ([61:08])

Final Reflections (Chief Fennessy)

• “Life is a journey, but leadership is a journey within you... If you want to have more influence, help others, move up—leadership is about positive influence and changing lives.” ([63:32])
• “You don’t need a department’s big resources for development—books, online resources, conversations at the kitchen table all work.” ([65:08])
• “I’m still learning, still hungry. Even at the end of my career, I haven’t stopped.” ([65:52])

This episode is a must-listen for anyone in the fire service or interested in real, actionable leadership—whether you’re just starting out or already leading others. Chief Fennessy’s candor, humility, and strategic insight provide a practical blueprint for intentional leadership growth and cultivating a mission-driven culture.