Ep. 78: Brian Fennessy, Fire Chief - Mission Driven Culture

Summary

Podcast Summary: Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table

Ep. 78: Brian Fennessy, Fire Chief – Mission Driven Culture

Host: Captain Berlin Maza
Guest: Brian Fennessy, Fire Chief, Orange County Fire Authority
Date: September 4, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Captain Berlin Maza sits down with Fire Chief Brian Fennessy to explore the practical, experiential, and deeply personal journey of leadership in the fire service. With decades of experience from wildland hotshot crews to metropolitan fire departments and now leading the Orange County Fire Authority, Chief Fennessy shares how a “mission driven culture” can be intentionally cultivated—emphasizing the importance of authenticity, continuous growth, empathy, trust, and transformation at every organizational level. The episode is loaded with actionable insights for both aspiring and established leaders, illustrating how leadership is less a destination and more an ongoing journey.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Chief Fennessy’s Leadership Journey

• Background & Beginnings
  • Grew up in a large family in Southern California, struggled academically, and entered the workforce at 18, influenced by his father’s decisive, Navy-led parenting style.
  • “If you’re not working, not going to school, haven’t enlisted in the military—you’re not going to live here.” ([04:46])
  • Entered fire service at 18 via the forest service: “Next thing I know, I’m off with this crew... for the first time in my life, I felt I was good at something.” ([06:00])
• Early Leadership Roles
  • Became a hotshot foreman (now “captain”) at 24: “Hard to imagine at 24, somebody allowed me to supervise a module of 10 hotshots.” ([07:16])
  • Career advanced through the US Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, San Diego Fire-Rescue Department, and eventually Fire Chief roles.

2. Leadership as a Continuous Journey

• No End Point

  • “Leadership is not an end goal. It’s what you become along the way.” ([04:30])
  • “Watch out for the guy that says, ‘Oh, man, I made it.’” ([13:23])

• Self-Reflection & Growth Mindset

  • “You have to work on it. I try to learn from my mistakes, do a lot of self reflection. Why did that irritate me, is that my ego talking?” ([12:21])
  • “You have to be honest with yourself to grow.” ([12:39])

3. Intentional Leader Development—Not Leaving It to Luck

• From Luck to Systems
  • Historically, departments relied on “luck” for good leaders; Chief Fennessy advocates intentional investment in leader development: “You can do a lot for developing yourself by reading... but it’s up to the individual to pursue that.” ([11:38])
• Cost and Accessibility
  • “You don’t need big budgets for all of leader development. There are inspiring resources on YouTube, books, and more. The responsibility begins with the individual.” ([12:10])
• Programmatic Changes
  • Pioneered mandatory developmental courses for promotion in San Diego: “If you wanted to take the captain’s exam, you had to have this course. And ultimately, they’d say, ‘Man, I wish I had that 20 years ago.’” ([19:27])
  • Brought in Mission Centered Solutions for field experiential training, weaving it into culture and promotional processes.

4. Building Mission Driven & Intent-Based Culture

• The OCFA Way & Organizational Doctrine

  • Set out to systematize the culture with "The OCFA Way" and an organizational doctrine: “The OCFA Way sits on my desk as a daily reminder—it's that important.” ([14:30])
  • Differentiated between “who we are” (values) and “how we make decisions” (doctrine).

• Empowering Decision-Making

  • Rejects rigid paramilitary culture: “The business we’re in is so dynamic you can’t have a rule for everything... I expect my people to break policy—responsibly—when time is compressed and stakes are high.” ([30:57])
  • “Last thing we want in ops is someone not doing the right thing because they’re afraid of reprisal.” ([32:10])

5. Culture Change & Buy-In

• Earning Trust & Authenticity

  • “Had to earn trust as an external chief in Orange County. Part of my plan was visiting stations and truly listening. Nowadays, people want to see you, want you to be present.” ([24:30])
  • “Firefighters will sniff out a phony in a heartbeat.” ([25:48])
  • Successfully revived “The OCFA Way” after noticing that newer staff didn’t know it—a key to regaining cultural identity.

• Peer Accountability

  • Empowered division chiefs to own the doctrine; created mutual accountability: “There’s nothing better than peer accountability. You calling me on my stuff—I'll listen to that a lot more than my boss giving me crap.” ([30:57])

6. Leadership Traits & Advice

• Authenticity & Empathy

  • “Be authentic. People know who you are, you don’t have to change who you are fundamentally, but recognize your new responsibilities.” ([45:04])
  • “Empathy came late for me… Now, I profess we need to treat people with dignity. I look back and I’m kind of ashamed of how I treated people earlier in my career.” ([46:12])

• Vulnerability & Openness to Change

  • Admits mistakes and personal transformation: “I was a horrible leader, thinking I was leading like I should. But I had to learn it.” ([53:54])
  • Encourages others not to be ashamed of realizing their need to change: “If you’ve been a terrible leader for 20 years, don’t be ashamed to change. Recognize it, transform, don’t worry about what people say.” ([51:20])

• Continuous Learning

  • “I’m still reading, going to staff rides, learning what I can... You gotta want it, knowing you’ll never get it perfectly.” ([43:11])
  • Believes strongly in mentorship, even if the term wasn’t used in his day: “Now at this part of my career, I love seeing those I’ve mentored do the same for others.” ([41:21])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Cost and Responsibility of Leadership Development:

  • “There’s a cost to leader development, but there are things that don’t cost a bunch. It’s up to the individual to pursue that.” ([11:38])

• On Facing Discipline for Good Decisions:

  • “Do we really trust our people to make decisions? We train them well, equip them well—but do we want them to act, even if it means breaking policy, for the best result?” ([16:45])

• Culture in Action:

  • “You want people to listen and follow? That can be trained. Is leadership nature or nurture? I’m the proof that it can be learned.” ([53:54])

• On Leadership as Influence:

  • “If you want to move up and have more influence—because that’s what leadership is, ultimately, right?—you want that to be positive, to change people’s lives and help.” ([63:32])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Chief Fennessy’s Early Career & Leadership Start: [04:46] – [08:55]
• Leadership as a Journey, Not a Goal: [10:36] – [13:23]
• Intentional Leader Development vs. Luck: [13:42] – [20:39]
• Implementing Mission Driven Culture & Accountability: [22:33] – [32:55]
• Practical Tips for All Leaders (New, Officers, Chiefs): [45:04] – [50:08]
• Embracing Change, Learning from Mistakes: [51:20] – [53:54]
• Recommended Reading & Resources: [55:27] – [59:10]
• Leadership Challenge (Next Guest): [61:08]
• Final Thoughts on Leadership Journey: [63:32]

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Book and Resource Recommendations

• Team of Teams by General Stanley McChrystal

  • “He really spells out the difference between complicated and complex, and shows how empowering people at the lowest level leads to better results—even if there are mistakes.” ([56:00])

• The Invisible Gorilla by Christopher Chabris & Daniel Simons

  • “Explains a lot about how your mind works, why people miss things right in front of them... gave me some insight into how mistakes happen.” ([58:07])

• General Advice:

  • Explore TED Talks, YouTube, and books for ongoing self-development, especially if the department lacks training budget ([65:24]).

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Tangible Takeaways / Action Items

• For All Leaders:

  • Be authentic—don’t fundamentally change who you are, but grow and accept responsibility.
  • Practice empathy and strive to understand your people—know their stories, challenges, strengths.
  • Commit to being a lifelong learner—read, seek mentorship (formal or informal), continually reflect.
  • Don’t be afraid to change and improve, even if you’ve been “doing it wrong” for years.

• For Organizations:

  • Make leader development a regular, required part of all promotional processes.
  • Build culture intentionally, not relying on luck—document and live your core values and decision-making doctrine.
  • Support systems of trust, empowerment, and responsible risk-taking.
  • Foster peer accountability at all leadership levels.
  • Recognize and reward positive leadership behaviors publicly.

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Memorable Leadership Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On Self-Reflection:
  “You have to work on it. I try really hard, try to learn from my mistakes, do a lot of self-reflection... you have to be honest with yourself, truly honest, if you want to grow.” ([12:21])

• On Changing Culture:
  “Pushing out the mission driven culture initiative wasn’t too hard [in San Diego] because we had buy-in... here [OCFA], I was the external guy—had to earn trust from these guys.” ([23:10])

• On Trust and Empowerment:
  “I expect my people to break policy... the business we’re in is so dynamic, you can’t have a rule for everything.” ([30:57])

• On Peer Accountability:
  “There’s nothing better than peer accountability—you calling me on my stuff, I’m going to listen a lot more than my boss giving me crap.” ([30:57])

• On Vulnerability:
  “Just because I’m the Fire Chief doesn’t mean I’m the smartest guy in the room—I’m still that same knuckle-dragger, they just gave me another badge.” ([43:31])

• On Lifelong Growth:
  “I’m still reading, going to staff rides... you gotta want it, you gotta try to be better, understanding you’re never going to get it perfectly.” ([43:11])

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Leadership Challenge — Next Guest

• Chief Fennessy’s Pick: Mark Niemeyer, Boise Fire Chief and President of the Western Fire Chiefs Association
  • “Mark’s honesty, transparency, and vulnerability are unmatched, the troops love him, and he’s driven real culture change.” ([61:08])

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Final Reflections (Chief Fennessy)

• “Life is a journey, but leadership is a journey within you... If you want to have more influence, help others, move up—leadership is about positive influence and changing lives.” ([63:32])
• “You don’t need a department’s big resources for development—books, online resources, conversations at the kitchen table all work.” ([65:08])
• “I’m still learning, still hungry. Even at the end of my career, I haven’t stopped.” ([65:52])

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This episode is a must-listen for anyone in the fire service or interested in real, actionable leadership—whether you’re just starting out or already leading others. Chief Fennessy’s candor, humility, and strategic insight provide a practical blueprint for intentional leadership growth and cultivating a mission-driven culture.

Transcript

[A]

It really comes down to investing in leader development. And yes, there's a cost to that, but there's also things that don't cost a bunch, right? You know, when I was with San Diego, we were pretty budget strapped and so getting funding to pay for leader development, training, staff rides, whatever, we were able to find ways to do that. But more times than not, some of it was, hey, listen, you know, you can do a lot to developing yourself by reading. Certainly that's something. But I look at what's on YouTube, sometimes you plug in leadership, military leadership, whatever it is, and man, there's some really inspiring, you know, videos. But I, I really think that it's up to the individual to, to pursue that. Being rescued from a three story ap The First Responder Liaison Network is proud to present to you the Kitchen Table podcast. Join us as we explore leadership from perspectives around the globe. From firefighters to fire Chiefs, civilians to CEOs, our conversations have one simple goal. Build more leaders. Right. Check for expenses.

[B]

Good afternoon and welcome Everybody to episode 78 of the Kitchen Table. On the show today, we welcome a Fire Chief, Brian Feny of Orange County Fire Authority. And the leadership topic of the day is the leadership journey. As the Fire Chief of the Orange County Fire Authority, Brian Feny leads more than 1,800 firefighters and non sworn personnel who collectively serve 2 million residents across 23 cities and unincorporated county. Chief Ennessee began his career in 1978 with the US Department of Agriculture's United States Forest Service and the US Department of Interior's Bureau of Land Management, working as a hotshot crew member and ultimately crew superintendent. In 1990, Chief Hennessy joined the San Diego Fire Rescue Department and ultimately became chief of department in 2015. In 2018, he was appointed to Fire Chief of the Orange County Fire Authority. Good afternoon, Chief. How are you today?

[A]

I'm doing great, thank you. Look man, I even dressed up for you.

[B]

I appreciate it.

[A]

I'm just kidding, man. I'm not normal. I don't want people to think I normally dress like this for work, but there was a. Actually a funeral service. I just came back from a. A fire chief passed away a few weeks ago. He had just retired and was at the beach and, and had. Sounds like sudden cardiac arrest and so yeah, his services were this morning. Yeah, yeah, we go to too many of those, right?

[B]

We do. Unfortunately we do. And unfortunately not to go down that path. But I was just on the phone with a buddy of mine up here and just last weekend over at the Seattle Fire Department, another member same Thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Still on the job.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

But, yeah, we do, we do unfortunately have too many of these.

[A]

That's true. I mean, the, the. What it does to us. Right. I mean, I, I'm sure you've heard it and I know others hear it all the time from sometimes the public or even our elected officials that say, wow, you guys get to retire at such a young age. What they don't realize, and I try to remind them is that, you know, firefighters don't historically have long retirements. We tend to pass away sooner than the general population, so. Agreed. Yeah.

[B]

You know, we don't take things for granted and, you know, we move forward and we. Yeah, it's. Oh, what a way to start the show. I might cut some of that.

[A]

That's all right, man. On a brighter note.

[B]

Yeah, it's on a brighter note.

[A]

Well, before we get.

[B]

Yeah, I appreciate it. Thanks for taking up the leadership challenge of Chief Chris Tubbs. And Chief Tubbs actually was served as a chief up here. And ironically enough, listeners know this, but Chief Tubs was a former fire chief of Mercer Island Fire Department who years and many years later is now part of the department that I work for. So it's interesting how that all comes about.

[A]

No kidding.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I knew he's from the Pacific Northwest. That's what a, What a great coincidence.

[B]

Very, very much so. Very much so. And funny thing was I hadn't met Chief Tubs even prior to doing the show. And so on the show we had talked about this and the irony behind all that, the coincidence about all that.

[A]

Very cool.

[B]

Yeah. So before we talk about this leadership journey, because this is going to be an awesome conversation about the journey that leadership is. Right. Because it's not an end goal. It's not something you obtained. It's just, you know, what you become along the way. Would you mind sharing a little bit about Chief Fantasy before we just dive right in?

[A]

Yeah, you know, you bet. You know, I got my. Well, I, I'll back up a little bit. I grew up in Southern California. I was raised in Altadena. Altadena is now kind of a well known place given the, the fires that we had here in, back in January. But I was not a great student. Big family, another four brothers or so. They all excelled, you know, in school or did. Well, I did not. I think I was out probably having too much fun. Probably wasn't as mature as I needed to be. And lo and behold, I become 18 years old and my dad being former Navy, he was, you know, World War II part of the greatest generation and, and led. His leadership style was very much, you do what I say. And you know, he wasn't very emotional and all those sorts of things. And come 18 is like, well, look, you know, if you're not working, if you're not going to school, you haven't enlisted in the military, well, you're not going to live here. It was like, I remember, I was like, well, wait a minute, I've been living at home for 18 years. Like, no, that's not the way this works. You will do one of those things. And as I said, school was not really an option. In retrospect, I kind of wish I had gone into the service, but instead, you know, I went down to the unemployment office in Pasadena and it was there that one of the employees, employees asked about the fire service. What do you think about maybe becoming a firefighter? Hadn't really thought about it, although I had uncles that, you know, were LA firefighters. So he told me to show up at the ranger station in La Canada Flintridge, the Oak Grove Ranger Station. They would issue me some boots and put me through some training and I could be a firefighter. Wow. So that Monday I go down there and sure enough, it's a forest service station. And they tell me, I'm going to be on this crew and put me through 32 hours of, you know, back then, this was 1978, the training. And next thing I know, I'm, I'm off with this crew. You know, never really been out of the LA area extensively or anything like that. And I was traveling all over the west, you know, going to fires and it was something I felt like I was good at for the first time in my life, you know, swinging a tool. I mean, I had kind of, I don't know, at the time they seemed like high aspirations, you know, my aspirations as a 18 year old, you know, firefighter swinging a Pulaski on a hotshot crew is I want to run that chainsaw up front.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

That's, that's the tool I want to, I want to run that. That was my goal. Yeah. And I, I got to do that. Wow. And I got to tell you, you know, after, you know, I did 13 years with the US Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management and left as a, a helicopter crew superintendent where, you know, we ran 25 firefighters on the crew. And I was 24 years old when I was made a hotshot foreman. Now they call them hotshot captains. I look at 24 year olds today. I look at my own Family, you know, brothers, daughters, sons. At 24, I mean, hard to imagine that at 24, somebody allowed me to supervise a module of, of 10 hot shots. So whether I recognize it and I didn't at the time, you know, the leadership journey really kind of started, you know, back then, and a lot of mistakes along the way. Sure. As well as successes. But yeah, that's how I started. Like you said, 30 years, nearly 30 with San Diego. I'm in my eighth year here and it has been a journey and I've learned so much and I'm continuing to learn a lot. Part of who I am, my kids are, are largely grown man. I am, I am way out of kilter when it comes to work life balance. It's just the way I'm wired. It was ADD as a kid and, you know, my wife kind of, you know, has accepted that a long time ago. And so I don't, I don't recommend, you know, my life balance to anybody that's watching this show.

[B]

Sure, sure.

[A]

But it's better than other things, right?

[B]

It is, it is. Well, it's the passion behind it. Right. Because you're. The things that you do.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Is to benefit and to better your community, your fire department, the leaders that work with you and for you and beside you. I'm. I'm here doing this podcast on my off to cut off, you know, 8:00' clock this morning. You know, I'm off duty right now doing this. And yeah, it's. We could be doing other things right and Right. You know, so.

[A]

But, you know, and that, that's the thing, right. It's not only enjoy it, you know, I'm getting obviously in the twilight of my career and people ask all the time, hey, when you're retiring? And my typical answer is, I don't know, two, three years. Used to be four or five years. I really don't know. Yeah. Because, well, part of me doesn't want to be that guy that, you know, 70s, 80s or something. The crews are like, man, somebody needs to tell grandpa it's time to freaking. I don't want to be that guy.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

But at the same time, man, I still think I have something to offer. Know, I don't have a lot of, you know, I don't golf. I don't do some of these things that, that maybe I'll get into in, in retirement, but I don't know. Brilliant. As long as I feel like I'm.

[B]

As long as you're contributing, you're effective. And, you know, people are still learning from you and want you to be around. I mean, why leave, right? I mean, how many times have we seen institutional knowledge, we'll say experience walk out the door, and we didn't have a chance to say, hold on a minute, like, can we take a little bit more from you? So as long as you're giving back, I mean, that's what counts.

[A]

Well, how many of those guys, right, they come back a year or two, go, man, I, I retired too soon. I, I should have stuck with it. You know, you can only golf or fish so much. What. Whatever it is right now, all of a sudden you look and they're working for somebody else. It's like, yeah, stayed.

[B]

Could have stayed. Could have stayed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So talk about leadership today and anything we could have talked about, you wanted to talk about leadership being a journey and, you know, for all of us as leaders, as firefighters and, and in any industry, talk about the importance of just recognizing that our paths, it's a journey, it's not an end goal to get there, whatever there is.

[A]

Yeah, you know, it's so true. I, I think, you know, I recognized a long time ago and, and I'm not that smart to recognize things necessarily by myself, but in, you know, over time and conversations with others, is that I really kind of realized that especially when it came to fire chiefs and other, you know, levels of chief officers that, let's say, aren't part of the civil service exam where there's very tight criteria, we've relied upon luck, Right. I think people, a lot of people will remember that good chief or whatever it is, right? And many times they were lucky because these were people that, that likely, you know, developed themselves or got experience and understood what it meant to lead an organization and to have people follow and vision, all those things, you know, others, you know, did not get that same thing. And so we remember the quote, unquote, bad chief, right. Or whatever. And it really came comes down to, you know, investing in leader development. And yes, there's a cost to that, but there's also things that don't cost a bunch. Right. You know, when I was with San Diego, we were pretty budget strapped and so getting funding to pay for, you know, leader development, training staff rides, whatever, we were able to find ways to do that. But more times than not, some of it was, hey, listen, you know, you can do a lot to developing yourself by reading. Certainly that's something. But I look at what's on YouTube, sometimes you plug in leadership, military leadership, whatever it is, and man, there's some really Inspiring, you know, videos. But I, I really think that it's up to the individual to, to pursue that. I, I mean, I'm still trying all these years. I'm not a perfect leader. But I'll tell you what, I try really hard and I, and I learn or try to learn from my mistake, do a lot of self reflection, you know, well, why did that, when so and so said something, why did that irritate me and really kind of dig into. Is that my ego that's talking? Is that, what is that right? And, and I think one has to be honest with themselves, truly honest with themselves if they're going to grow. And you have to, and you have to work on it. I mean, you just do. And to your point, Berlin, I don't think it's ever over. I think I'll continually be doing it. Watch out for the guy that says, oh man, I made it.

[B]

I know I got it. And I got what right? I made it to what? I mean, because there is no, yeah, even the greatest of greatest in any industry, you know, whether it be a championship, whatever. The pinnacle someone's, you know, ultimate award is, is those, those ones that are sustainable. They keep going. They don't. They keep going.

[A]

Right?

[B]

That's what it's all about. You mentioned, you mentioned something super important. You said sometimes, you know, we get lucky, but some departments don't. For example, they're intentional, right. You sent me over the website and I looked over the website very extensively, watched some of those videos from the ocfa. There's an Orange county fire way, right? And there's those documents. I read through some of the documents. I read over the doctrine. I saw, you know, all that stuff. So Chief, what is that? Because it looks like to me that there was no, there's no luck in your department because you were intentional about, you know, setting the way, if you will. I know you talked about mission driven culture, intent based culture. There's intent behind that and you were, and correct me if I'm wrong, you were intentional about making sure that you and your department weren't lucky to have great leaders. You put money behind it. So talk about all that.

[A]

Yeah, very much so. And, and yeah, I, I, I've got the OCFA way. It's all tabbed up on my desk. Our doctri much as you know, was engaged in, in working through the development of it, man, it's that important that it sits on, on my desk as, as a reminder or something to look at. But you know, even, like I said, even Back in San Diego, you know, prior to becoming the fire chief in 2015 in San Diego, I was the number two, like I said, for about six years. And prior to that I was, you know, a three bugle chief for a few years and on and on. And I think what really struck me was, you know, how, how paramilitary were really didn't allow for a lot of independent thinking. Right. Or people were afraid to step outside the rules, the policies, quite frankly, for fear of discipline more than anything else. And you know, I saw that play out on large, you know, disasters and emergencies where many times firefighters and, and the supervisor, others really understood and knew what they needed to do. But these things may have been outside of policy and, you know, wouldn't take those steps, which meant the public then suffered as a result. And, you know, had a lot of conversations at the kitchen table with a lot of other firefighters. I think it was a captain at the time. And it really came to light over one incident where it really got focused is had a guy and you'll appreciate this. We had engine crew in a very, very busy part of the city, midday, I don't know, around lunchtime, maybe, and they get dispatched to a medical aid, you know, I don't know, a few miles from the station. So they pull on the main thoroughfare, you know, four or five lane, you know, street and you know, busy commercial area and they're driving down the street. And the policy, the policy is, man, you do not deviate from. You get toned out and you're on this call, you don't jump anything else. This is where you go, what if you get an accident, we'll leave a firefighter behind. But you continue that. I mean, this was ingrained in us from, you know, academy on. Yeah, well, as they're rolling down the road off the left a block, probably away, you know, they're heading a big huge column of black smoke. And you know, the, the captain was like, man, and you know, do I, do I turn or do I go to this, this, you know, continue on this incident. As they got closer, there's people now in the street waving, you know, hey, you know, go this way, blah, blah, blah. And there was some construction going on. They thought, you know, they could see an apartment building behind it. They thought, this is really going to be a big deal. So he took that sense of, man, I'll take whatever's coming. I gotta make that left, made the left, made another right, came around the corner and it was one of those giant construction dumpsters that was on fire, was not the apartment building. And he said his heart just sank because, you know, it wasn't about leaving that medical aid because somebody else might have needed help. It was, oh, God, what kind of trouble am I going to be in now? And it caused a lot of debate, you know, throughout the department because now he's facing discipline. And ultimately he was disciplined. And that kind of perpetuated the conversation is like, hey, well, wait a minute. You know, management always tells us we're empowered to make decisions and all this and that, but, you know, there's a camp of us that was like, man, he made the right decision. He had a game time decision. He saw, he tasted, he smelled it. If we're really going to allow, you know, our supervisors or leaders to make men, you've got to. You've got to do that. And he made a great decision. Others are like, oh, no, what if the medical aid had been this? Or this is. Well, the fact is it wasn't. It wasn't cardiac arrest. It wasn't anything like that. So it came down to this debate is, do we really trust our people to make that? We train them very well, we equip them well. And so it came down to leader philosophy and that sort of thing. And I got my boss to agree to have a company called Mission Centered Solutions. Come in mcs. They had been delivering experiential leader development training to the US Forest Service, the blm. They started with smokejumpers, hotshot crews, because they knew these are the ones with the, you know, cultures, these subcultures that were very, very strong. And if there was going to be called bs, it would come out of this, right? And it was right after the South Canyon fires in 1994, where, you know, firefighters, the hotshots, were killed and they were overrun. Some people know it as Storm King Mountain, but South Canyon was the name of the fire. Caused a lot of change. Investigations looking at causal factors, human factors. Nobody had ever really looked at human factors before. And highly successful. And we thought, God, man, wonder if that translates to the structure fire world. So we entered into a relationship with this company. They came and did some courses for us. Overwhelming leader development. I mean, half of it or more was actually in the field. It was like, man, we got to do more of this and more of this. And so we did that for about six, seven years. In fact, we weaved it into the promotional process. If you wanted to take the captain's exam, you had to have this course. This course, this course. And also L380, the leader development for battalion chief. You needed to have the next level. So kind of forced people that really maybe weren't interested in taking that class to go. And ultimately, when they'd get done with it, they'd say, man, that was. I wish I had that 20 years ago. Yes. You know, and, and. But we never really invested. We had a lot of veterans back when I started, some World War II, remaining Korea, certainly some Vietnam veterans. So there's a. There were military folks that you could learn from, but we had a lot that weren't that great, weren't very good leaders. So there's a lot to learn from them. Bad leaders.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Beyond just, I don't want to be like that. So that really kind of started the journey. And by the time I left San Diego, we pushed the Mission Driven Culture Initiative out. So coming to Orange County, I thought, well, you know, better, you know, more resources, places larger. We have more. More things, more people, but pretty well resourced Fire department. And Ray from the very beginning says, man, we're going to go down this path. And there were problems here when I got here, some big public problems that needed to be addressed. But a lot of it really came down to culture. And I think you see it everywhere, right in the fire service. The culture looks really close. I came from that funeral today, right. Or somebody gets hurt real bad, they're at the hospital, then everybody comes together. Somebody gets the families, and we talk about the fire service family and this and that. But do you see that outside of those? Sometimes you do, you know, with organizations pulling together and those sorts of things. But it comes back to culture. And I really felt like, man, this was an opportunity. We're losing, I don't know, 50 to 100 firefighters a year to retirement. At the same time, we're bringing in 50 to 100 firefighters a year. Now's the time to approach the culture and not just talk about it, but demonstrate it and learn. How do we put these things that we know, that you and I know, Berlin, are. Are good philosophically? How do we put those on paper? How do we train those? So we did. We. We impaneled a group of folks for the OCFA way, a bunch of different ranks, professional staff, and gave them the space to really talk about who we are. The OCFA is who we are. The organizational doctrine is how we make decisions. Yeah. And that takes buy in. Right.

[B]

I was just going to ask my next question. How so? Like, I'm curious, with such a larger department, you know, my department I work for is nowhere near the size of Orange County. But what was the buy in like? You know, I. You know, because I want to get into another question. We should go backwards about leader development. But what was the buy in like? Is it. Was it, by and large, like many or was there a pushback? How do you navigate to say, you know what, we're going to start into this new culture? We'll say of mission driven and, you know, ensuring that everyone's on the same page, has a. Is. Is on the same path as the same objective, if you will.

[A]

Yeah, it's, you know, going back to San Diego. You know, we had. We basically, you know, softened the earth a bit by, you know, all those years of providing leader development training. So pushing out the mission driven culture initiative wasn't too hard. Right. Because we had buy in. We had buy in that, hey, this is good, and. And buy in for firefighters. You know, it's word of mouth. Yeah. Your buddy tells you, hey, man, I went to this thing. You gotta go to this, man. This is good. You're likely gonna go to that or you're gonna try to do that. So it had to be that. We had that in San Diego.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

Here a little bit different. Right. Didn't have 10 years of. Of kind of grooming this. I'm the new fire. I'm the external guy coming as the fire chief. There weren't any internal candidates. Nobody was prepared, and nobody was interested, which is a whole nother problem. And that needed to be addressed. But now, how do you get this guy right? I'm about 100 miles, maybe not 100 miles, maybe 60 miles north of San Diego. 60, 70 miles. You still got to earn that trust from these guys, right? Absolutely. And so part of the. Part of my plan was, man, I was going to visit 100, hundred stations my first hundred days, you know, for lunch or dinner, whatever. And I think I got to 60 something. Man, I never got there, because in the beginning, the workload's not too tough because you're still the new guy and you're kind of being brought up to speed. And so common themes start to come out of that when you're having dinner. And I think, what's different today than when I started, man, when I started, probably through the 90s, certainly the 80s 90s, maybe in the. Didn't care whether I saw a chief at all. The battalion chief would come by, drop off the mail, we'd it up, maybe see him. But if the fire chief or anybody, any of his executive staff showed up, man, I couldn't care less. Right. I mean, there were just people that showed up at incidents, and then a day later, you'd hear that they complained because your gloves were off or something. As far as we were concerned, man, if I never saw a fire chief or the staff, that was fine with us. Right. Right now they want to see you. They want you to come by the station. They want you. They want it. And so they're more open. Yeah. In a station, visits, probably much like it is at yours. You know, when the chief comes, everybody's wearing their uniform. Everybody's kind of polite. The place is clean. And when you're talking to them, you can tell there's this, you know, this tent, you know, until, you know that the. The water breaks. Right. Until you start talking about things and. And wanting to hear what's not. Once somebody starts talking about what could be better. Whatever, man. The floodgates open.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Now we're having a real conversation. Yeah. And, you know, firefighters. Right. Man, we'll see. We'll sniff out a phony in a freaking heart.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

We're looking for it. Yeah. When somebody gets promoted, how are they going to change now?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're just hypersensitive to that. Yeah. So, hey, you better be genuine. You know, you better. Because they'll sniff it out if you're not. If you're just trying to sell something. And so, you know, I hear. Listen to them, and then I share a little bit about mission driven culture. And you'd see a lot of nodding heads, kids, because I think when you talk about it. Right. People go, oh, man. Yeah. No, that's good. No, that's. That's what we should. It's really easy to get people on board with. But then what does it look like when you take it down to how do you. How do you train that? How do you have those discussions? How do you and I. Yeah. Tend to. Because getting a degree in what Right. Looks like isn't difficult, but you're still kind of fighting early on that trust. Is this guy just blowing smoke? Sure. And so initially, you know, I ended up meeting with all the chief officers in their group and sharing kind of where I wanted to go, did it all. Couple days of all. Everybody within the organization that could show up at the auditorium or whatever. And I spent a couple hours sharing what mission driven culture is this and that. And people like the. Then it was time to put the work in. Right. And the OCFA way, you know, who we are. That was actually done by a fire chief, Chip Prather. That retired here, I want to say, in 2008. Ish. 2009. Ish. And he was the chief here for about 10 years. Really highly regarded. I remember Chip. I still see Chip to this day. Long retired, obviously. And it was a takeoff from Bruno Cini's the Phoenix Way. Everybody knew Alan Brunetini, right. And so back in the day they were friends and people would go visit Bruno and they hear about and see the Phoenix Way and. And they wanted to create, you know, the Orange county way. Yeah, a lot of departments do that. You know how we are, man. We steal each other's stuff.

[B]

Absolutely. We do.

[A]

Nothing wrong with that.

[B]

Well, I mean, right. If it works, why not?

[A]

Right? Yeah. And so. But when I went through it and the way I got it, it's my first day in the. The interim fire chief I was taken over from because there was about a six month period with last chief was gone and then there was this interim. He was way more organized than me. Berlin, man, he had like a big binder. He says, man, look, here's your first day, here's your first week, here's the me. I mean the media was like dialed and I'm thinking, man, that's not the way I roll. And I, My life is chaos, man. I don't, I'm not that, not that organized. But in the fault, the file fold, there was this OCFA way. And I said, what is this? And I started reading it going, man, this is, this is unbelievable. This is who the organization is. And it really was back then. Well, they'd hired so many people over the years he was gone, that many of the people here never heard of it, but the old timers did. Yeah, so when I met with the old timers one on one, not the old time, but the chiefs were the coming in. I put the book purposely on the front of my desk to see if any of them would notice it. And sure enough, some of the, you know, battalions, the folks that have been on a wild battalion, she's. They go, hey, hey, where'd you get that? I said, well, I said, well, I found. Tell me about it. And they would tell me what it meant to them. And some of them were, were new firefighters back in the day. But it obviously meant a lot to them and talking about values and principles and who we are and, and there was buy in back then. And of course then they would lead to tell you how that was all been lost and boy, wouldn't it be great to get back there again. And so there were A lot of these things that kind of led up to it. And the final step really was, you know, when we got, you know, organizational buy in that this is where we want to go, especially with the doctrine, which took probably a year and a half or better to get done. The division chiefs wanted to own that kind of way we're structured. There's myself, I've got two deputies and then there's a layer of assistant chiefs like the EMS chief, the human resources chief, you know, that kind of level. And below that there are division chiefs and what the division chiefs are, they're geographic divisions within that, you know, two or three battalions may be within a division. But because we provide service for so many cities, I can't get to 23 cities and the board supervisor meeting every week. So they are really kind of the, the fire chief for multiple cities or perhaps one large city. Anyways, these are the guys that run in the day to day business along with the battalion chiefs. Well, the division chiefs wanted to own this and it was one of those things like you can own this and I'll come in and kind of provide a little sidebar, make sure we're kind of going the way with it. We had MCS come in and facilitate it. So nobody's off the hook. But the big piece was when it's all said and done, you all got to be willing to hold yourselves accountable. To mean in Berlin, if you're a division chief and I'm a division chief and you do or say something that maybe is not what we all agreed to in this. Yeah. I'm going to call you out and not call you out. But hey, brilliant man. What happened to the hey man, no surprises or whatever the thing. Oh man, yeah. No, because you know, there's no better. There's nothing better than pure accountability.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

You calling me and my shits a whole lot. I'm going to listen to that a lot more than I am my boss giving me crap. Yeah. You know, I mean we have a relationship and we're so that was really what did it. And then pushing it out and then you saw some of the videos and whatever. It was really largely raised. Wow. Because again it goes back to. We've seen, you know, it's mostly focused on operations. Right. But there are some other, there are things in there that, that you know, translate to professional staff work. Whatever. You just don't have the time compression that maybe an emergency does. Right. Yeah. Last thing we want to, to see, especially in operations is a supervisor or a firefighter at any Level not doing what they know is the right thing to do. And there's time compression now, and they don't do it for fear of. Yeah. It was what, reprisal. Whatever it is. I tell people, no, I expect you to. To step outside of policy, and that freaks them out. Wow. I tell other chiefs that, no, I expect my people to break policy. And they're like, whoa. And I got a backup. And they don't know the rules are important. Rules are important, but the business we're in is so dynamic. You can't. You can't have a rule for everything. Yeah. And especially when there's time compression. If something needs to happen right now and that individual or that crew or whatever needs to. Even if it's outside of policy, they need to do that. There's time later to talk about why did you do that. Yeah. Doesn't mean you just assign yourself to every first alarm. Because some people take it, though, right?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We.

[B]

We like to interpret. We like especially San Diego.

[A]

They're like, oh, man, this mission driven culture thing's good, man. I could just. And we did. We had some people jumping calls. It was like, listen. Yeah.

[B]

There's a happy medium somewhere in there. Right.

[A]

Well, there has to be account. What people don't realize when you're giving them that much, there's still accountability.

[B]

Still accountability.

[A]

And we tell them, look, you're gonna get asked. So, okay, I get why. Why did you make the decisions you made?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And if they have, you know, I mean, good reason. Well, I did this because I noticed this. I could tell that if this. This. Who are we to second guess? Yes. And you'll lose these people quick, right? You lose people, man. I did the. I know in my heart I did the right thing. Yeah. And now I'm getting a week on the beach because I violated. Yes. That. I mean, that is toxic.

[B]

Well, so trust. Sounds like trust and empowerment is. Goes without saying, Is obviously important in leadership. But going back even just a little bit, it's kind of a rhetorical when I say this, but it sounds like leadership development or leader development is a requirement. Meaning, like you had talked about, like, leadership courses started to become a part of the promotional process. And then you had people starting to willingly say, okay, I want to go to that course. And they were just word of mouth. It was like, hey, I went through this because of the promotional exam coming up. I don't know if you're thinking about taking the promotional exam, but it was a great course, great curriculum. You should Go through it. But it started to become a culture where developing yourself as a leader is required. And I say that simply because historically or traditionally in the fire service, it's not. Right, right. We do a lot of, you know, tactics training, hard skills, the job, all that. But leadership development is not. But it sounds like in where at OCFA and you know, kind of the organizations that you grew up, it kind of is now. I mean, that's what you guys are trying to do and that's different.

[A]

It is, it's adult learning. Right. I mean, so. But you're right. I mean, we've got the truck academy, we've got the this, we've got the that. But you know, we're not. If we're not developing our leaders from the very beginning, right from the time they come into the academy and then really focusing as they start to move towards a company officer position. I mean, you think about it, right? I think about when I became a captain, I took an exam, you know, got notified on a Friday, hey, Congratulations. You and 20 others are going to be captains. You're going here, man. Now they're trusting me with, you know, a district to protect. Right. And all the people within it. A million dollar plus fire engine, three other firefighters, I mean, you know, the station, I mean, a huge responsibility. And what have they done to prepare me for that? Right. From a leader, you know, and so like all, I mean, we're all human. We're going to make a bunch of mistakes before we figure it out. If we figure it out. Right. And so, you know, I go back to, you know, how, you know, really the kind of what happened to me, you know, here I am in the mid to late 80s, running crews all over the west and my leadership style, Berlin was man, yelling, screaming, boot in the butt. You know, just because that was the leadership model I grew up in. Yeah. You know, and I respond to that leadership model, man. I mean, be seen and not heard and blah, blah, blah. I'm okay with that.

[B]

I.

[A]

And I was going, you know, promoting up because of that. So I was on a fire up in Idaho somewhere near the Forks of the Salmon, and I'm lining out my crew, my 10 guys, right? I'm telling them, this is what you're going to do and you're going to do it and blah, blah, blah. And I'm giving them the business. It was kind of loud because the river is running through there. When I'm done, I hear this whistle from up on the hill and I look up, up, and it's this crew superintendent that was very well known nationally. He's one of those people, man, that was like, if he looked at you in Childline and nodded or said hello or good morning, man, that was a big deal. I mean, he was one of those guys. As you know, I'm still in my 20s, right? And it's like, man, if he talks to me, man, that's, it was just a big deal. And now this guy's on the side of the hill and he's waving me up, and so I go up, up the hill and, you know, take off my pack. And I'm saying, he's got, already got his pack off. He'd been watching this whole thing. And I forget exactly what we talked about, but, but it really had to do with, hey, if you want people to do, you know, something for you, a task or whatever, there are other ways of getting people to do that for you. Because I think he asked, hey, how do you think that thing that went down there? I said, oh, man, I thought it went great, man. I lined him out, told him what to do, told him what's going to happen after I, I, it was okay. And he suddenly says, well, you know, there's other ways of getting people to do things you need them to do. And, and for me, it was like, I remember thinking, what the hell is he talking about? What other way, right? And, and he told, he reached his pack, and he was known to be a big reader, right? And again, this, back in the mid-80s, maybe late-80s, and he pulled this book out of his pack, this little book, and it was a Sun Tzu. The Art of Leadership, right? Or the art.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like. And he's like, hey, listen, we're gonna see each other at some fire somewhere else, you know, because the crews all, you know, we travel all over the west. He goes, I'd like you to read this, and when I see you next, we're going to talk about it. Wow. I'm like, oh, man, I don't want to talk to this guy now. He gave me a homework assignment. He's going to talk to me later. I know it's on Zoo. Art of War, man. Will you open if anybody's ever read that, right? That's not an easy read.

[B]

Oh, right.

[A]

And I'm like, what the hell is this?

[B]

Especially in your 20s, right?

[A]

Ye. And I'm going to read it because I don't want to be, you know, seeing later in the season, whether it's a week or a month later, and he Asked me about it. I better frickin read it. And so I read it a bunch of times and still never really got it. But it opened the door to more conversations with him who introduced me to other people. We didn't use mentorship. I'm a mentee or you're my mentor now. You hear that all the time. Nobody use those words. But I was introduced to people and started to learn different things and observe how other people led. And again, the other leaders that didn't lead so well, but nothing really formal until probably, you know, well into my, you know, as a captain with San Diego fire. But same time following what the military, you know, has done through tactical decision games, through staff rides. I mean, there are so many things and they take, you know, the Marines take somebody that's just even into boot camp and they get some element of leadership development, leader development, and they get it throughout their career. It's not a choice. You're getting it. Yeah. Why shouldn't the fire service agree? Agree like that.

[B]

100.

[A]

Yeah. Otherwise you get what you get.

[B]

Yeah. Talk about luck, right? You talk about luck. Get lucky or you don't. So let me ask a question, Chief. I just want your thoughts on it. What would the fire service look like across the American fire service if leadership development became a requirement, regardless whether it be through coming up through the ranks or promotional process in a fire academy, even if you're brand new, what would the fire service look like in 30 years if it started today, where leadership development curriculum is there?

[A]

Well, I think, I think it would affect everything. I mean, probably one of the things it affect is you probably need smaller human resources departments. Right. You may not need the cause and effect.

[B]

Right.

[A]

All the crazy things firefighters, fighters do. Right. And so I laugh because I was one of those firefighters that, you know, I've been, There's a little paper in my file back in the day, man, I had a little bit too much fun. Right?

[B]

Come on, you're human. We're all human, Right?

[A]

Right. You know, when you think it or you put it in that way, that's a great question, is, you know, I think, you know, your injuries perhaps, you know, decrease your line of duty deaths, maybe even things like the, you know, behavioral health that we're all dealing with, mental health stuff because I think, you know, as a part of it and, and you've been around and you've talked to, you know, a lot of leaders too. You know, you know, if somebody's really practicing, you know, leadership, you know, philosophies and those Sorts of things. A, they normally don't carry a big ego with them. Right. I mean, for me, you know, you point me to a big ego. I point you to somebody that's got some insecurities. It's connected. Right.

[B]

100.

[A]

I feel insecure because now they're the big bad leader. They're the big. And so they overdo it. Well, that's, that's somebody that's, you know, got some insecurities there. You know, I want to share with people, you know, the journey or some of those things, if they're interested. And what I love now at this part of my career, seeing those that I've quote unquote, mentored. We didn't call it that. But they've been successful, moving up. I'm watching them do the same things. And those people are now becoming successful. Right. It's communicable. Just like complaining. Right. You're on a crew where everybody come bitches and complains and all that, man. It's just, yeah, culture, you know, Another crewman, everybody's pumped up, ready to go, man. It's a whole different feeling. Yes, it is. You know, and. And they tend to gravitate towards each other. Yeah. But yeah, I gotta think, you know, the world, you know, would be a lot better. Public safety, you know, certainly would. But I think people that are truly practicing good, you know, leadership, values and principles, there are people that you can trust. They're people in on our business, you know, man, you, you're going into war with, with some of these people on that rig with you, right? You're hanging it all out there with these people and you want to. It's easy to say, well, you got mine, I got yours. But that's not the way people operate except in that environment. You don't know for sure that they're going to be there. You're going to trust, being trained, they're going to trust, they're going to be vulnerable to use like Berlin, man. Yeah, I'm a little under the weather today, man. I, you know, can you, you know, take that, you know, drop off position or can you take this on the deal? And for me it's transparency. It's. There it is improvement, it's, you know, love it. Being open to change, continuing to learn, man. I'm still going to staff rides, military staff rides and some of those things for my own self. Right. I'm still reading what I can, but you gotta be, man, you don't want it. You gotta want it, you gotta want it, you gotta Want to try to be better understanding that you're never going to get it completely or perfectly.

[B]

Yeah. And there you go. It's. It's being okay with that, too.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Whatever path that you take, know that you're going to have a misstep, you're going to fail, you're going to say, you know what? I wish I wouldn't have done that. But it's all experience. And then you could also mentor somebody else and say, you know what, I went through this, and maybe you should take a different avenue based on this experience, because otherwise you don't have it and be vulnerable.

[A]

Right. Just because I'm the fire chief don't mean I'm the smartest guy in the rule, man. I'm far from that. I'm still that. That same knuckle dragger I was, they just gave me another badge. It's says, these are your. So I try to surround myself with really smart people. If they're smarter than me, that's even better. Yeah. And here, you know, I needed some people that knew the culture and the history and those sorts of things and. And so gaining that trust, you know, takes a little bit of time, you know, for them to see you're not in it for yourself, that you truly are, you know, wanting to. That you do love that. It's not just all talk. That takes a while. Because we are, as firefighters, somewhat cynical, man.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Well, yeah. Taking this to like a. Like a tangible piece now, too, because you had talked about something as simple as. I don't even want to say simple, but something as basic as in terms of like getting a book from a mentor, not even a mentor, but an individual. Gave you a book in your 20s. Yeah. And you didn't want to let this individual down. You took it upon yourself to read it. You got that. We talked about wanting it. Even up to you now, as the fire chief, continuously still wanting to learn, still wanting it, bettering yourself. So if you're going to talk to some groups and say along your leadership journey, Whether you have 30 years left in your career or three months left in your career, what do you suggest these individuals do to make sure they're on this path of a journey and they don't stop learning because it never stops. From a new firefighter to a company officer and then talking to also a chief officer, what's something tangible that you would recommend to those groups to do?

[A]

I, you know, for me, and I do, I share with the BC Academy and the Captain Academy. Anybody else is. Is really is to be authentic. You know, to me, authenticity, man, is. Is really everything, right? And you've gotta. Because we all know who you are, right? You could talk a big game, but, you know, if you've been on the crew, you know, for a year or so, I, you know, know you're not gonna fool us. And what do we do when somebody gets promoted to captain? We start watching, man. Is he going to change? He or she going to change, and they now going to be the smartest one in the room. And we see it even more so when somebody, you know, becomes a battalion chief or a chief officer. All right, now he's good. Let's. Let's see. And we used to, man, we used to mess with people, right? We used to purposely do stuff to see if they, you know, had changed. And the good ones, you know, good ones would be the ones like, listen, you clowns, you know, I know you're gonna be testing me today. We're not gonna play that today, you know. Well, we did when you were. Yeah, well, we're not. That was then, this is now, you know. Yeah. I don't want to be. I don't want to be the chief today. So, you know, behavior. So. But, you know, being. You don't have to change, right? You've got new duties, you've got new responsibilities. Certainly some of that has to change, but I think we're looking for that. And I think people like to follow the people that they, you know, that they've worked with and they've had, you know, good experiences in the past. So I think authenticity is a big one. I think empathy, and I think empathy came late for me. You know, I mean, when I was riding around the back of that engine, busiest station in San Diego, I'll be honest, man. I don't think I was the nicest person in the world. I mean, I had a lot of fun there, but we ran a lot of calls, you know, getting up all times of night, dealing with the stuff you would in an urban city. And. And quite frankly, I don't think I treated a lot of people with the dignity that they deserved. You know, at 2 in the morning, the second call out and the heroin overdose, whatever it was, you know, I look back on that, and I'm. I'm kind of ashamed of that, right? Because now today I'm, you know, I'm professing that we need to treat people with dignity and those sorts of things. And I think people. I think firefighters today do a much better job. Job than we did. Back during that era. But I think empathy kind of comes along, and if you're going to be successful in these positions, you've got to really want to learn about people. What. What is Joe's family like? What. You know, why is Joe have these issues? Does Joe maybe have things going on at home? Does. Does. Is Joe suffering from some PTSD or some other mental thing? And I think as a result of a lot of the mental health engagement we're seeing throughout the fire service, I think we are getting better at it because it's not so unusual anymore to ask somebody how they're doing and have that conversation where 20, 30 years ago and beyond that, man, always like, man, I'm good. I'm not sharing nothing with you buddies. I'm not good. People matter. Sharing.

[B]

It's good change.

[A]

There's a. Yeah, and I think there's a tolerance as. As we start seeing chiefs now from that era become fire chiefs, man. There's a. A willingness and a. And an effort to allow that. We have a very robust mental health program here that even extends out to families. And every quarter or so, I get a. A report with our HR director, and there's no names or anything, but it's amazing to me how many people firefighters are seeking help for. I mean, a variety of different things. I mean, I am so glad. But, you know, 30 years ago, man, it would have been nobody on that list.

[B]

I. I would unfortunately agree, because, yeah, that's. So we've made progress and it's. It's getting better.

[A]

And so I think people, you know, chiefs today, and not just the fire chief, but, you know, even captains, anybody that's in a supervisor advisory position, I think it's more important than ever to really know your people and to. Even if you don't like each other or whatever, you know, whatever it may be. But I, you know, I've heard, you know, there was a chief in San Antonio, really good guy. He used to talk about, you got to love all your firefighters, even though, you know, even those firefighters that maybe are that small percent that find themselves in. In trouble all the way. I used to think about that. It's like, man, do I love all my firefighters or just the ones that don't? And I had to kind of come to terms with that. And you have to, because a lot of those people, you know, sometimes come through the office and maybe on a last chance agreement, man, they're. They're going through some things in their lives that you have to be empathetic to. Right. Maybe they get another. But you get another opportunity. Agreed. And if it's so bad, they're going to be back anyways. Yeah, I tend to be one that. That looks at second and sometimes even third chances.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I want to lean on something real quick, Chief, as we kind of wind down a little bit here is. You talked about authenticity and empathy, obviously very important traits. But as you talk about this leadership journey and, you know, we know failures along the way, mistakes happen to all of us. The best of leaders have made decisions throughout their career to get to where they're at, but making those mistakes helps shape people as well. But some people, you know, we need to change. Meaning you talk about, like, you know, going from firefighter, we'll say to captain or captain to chief, whatever it may be. But being authentic is key. But sometimes we need to. We need to change. So we talk about authenticity, being your true self. But sometimes if. Let's just go ahead and say it, like say your true self for the X amount of years, you've been, you know, you've been a terrible leader.

[A]

Leader.

[B]

But you need to change. So that authenticity is. It's not so much that it's fake, but it's a recognition that I need to change. So talking about failures and being empathetic, recognizing you might not have been as empathetic as you were, as you should have been, wished you were. We need to change and transform as leaders. But talk about the importance of, like, recognizing, but then also not being ashamed of that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because if you've done 20 years as a terrible leader and, you know, you, you, you think you don't want to change because people are going to view you as, oh, now he's got the callers on his. Or, sorry, the brass on their calls. Now they got to change. But no, you need to change. And so can you talk about the challenge of that dynamic, knowing that people need to transform so hard.

[A]

Right. The first fire service. Right. I mean, it is. And you're right. I think I have. And I think most people, when they think about it, I've learned more from their failures, you know, than you do from your successes. I know what I don't want to do again or. Or if I acted like a jerk or whatever, I know I don't want to do that again. Again. I think so much of it still comes down to, you know, really a lot of self reflection. It's like an aar, right. Used to come back from a structure fire or something. You know, you'd be all pumped up yeah, man, we kicked its ass and, and this and that. And then I'd go back to bed, right, or whatever, and I'd start thinking about when we show, when we arrived and what I did and we did. It's like, man, I should have grabbed the 200 foot line. I ended up with. Not enough. You start critiquing, you know, your, your own performance. Well, the same thing, you know, and how you react or behave, you know, around others, you know, Should I have said what I said? You know, should I? I mean, how can I be better? How do I become more tolerant? But I don't know if that's just something that comes with age and maturity. Because we all know people that have been leadership positions for 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, they're lousy leaders. And quite frankly, it wouldn't have mattered, you know, what you got for them. They were going to be lousy leaders because they just didn't have the ability to see, you know, that Johari window, that, that blind spot. They have this blind spot that they will never see. You have to be open. I mean, and then you try to help somebody and they just get angry about it, right? Yes. And what's the reaction? Well, I'm not going to help them anymore. I'm just trying to be real and, and on and on. And who do you, who do you invest in? Right? And I think that's it. I think everybody's worth investing in. Certainly right in the beginning, if you start in the fire department, you know, what your path is to these beyond just the courses and the going back to school and all these things. Do I truly want people to listen and to follow me? How do I do that that can be trained, that the whole, you know, is leadership, you know, learned or is it natural? I'm of the belief that it can be learned. I'm an example.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

I had to learn it. Man, I was a horrible leader, thinking that I was leading like I should. But we really need to, to invest in that. I have such high hopes for the fire services I get towards the or in the twilight of my career. I see so many things around me. Young people that are fired up about the job and the community in ways that maybe I wasn't as well. And man, they're just sucking it up. And so we've got to provide opportunities, you know, to teach folks even basic leader development stuff and encourage them and reward them right. When they do well and they do something, recognize, you know, so that others see that. Wow, that decision really got a lot of attention. Yeah. Why? Yeah, but then we always have to. We're. We're always teaching it. Always. Yeah. And you can't slip, right? There is no slipping. I mean, we all make mistakes, but you can't do something so catastrophic from a leader development wise, especially when it comes to ethics and morals, those sorts of things. Because you'll lose them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because we're waiting, right? We're waiting for you. Oh, yeah. As a firefighter, man, you said, I'm waiting for it. Wait a minute. I knew it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I totally agree. Well, with that, Chief. Give us a book or a class, something that was highly influential to you, something that our, our listeners can pick up today. Be their purchase a book on Amazon or go out and look for this class that was very influential for you in leader development, whether it be a nationwide class, something local. California.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But are there resources out there that you'd recommend people say, go take or go do or go Read one of my.

[A]

Man, I. I find myself now reading more. It used to be, you know, leadership stories of, you know, so and so Jack Welch and I. I find those fascinating. Now, you know, I find myself really reading more about human behavior stuff. I find myself trying to. Why, you know, how people think and why they do what they do. There's a couple books, one that probably people have heard of Team of teams.

[B]

Oh, yeah, McChrystal.

[A]

Yeah, McChrystal. I think he does a really good job of bringing us through history of how we're building cars and we had. They figured out you put the screw in, I put the seat in and all of these things to the world we now live in. That is not what he says. There's a difference between complicated and complex. He really spells out the difference of that. Right. And he talks about his time in Iraq in the early 2000s as Commander JSOC and how Al Qaeda was really kind of kicking our butts in theater, you know, because they were so decentralized, you know, where our military model time. Right. Was very much centralized.

[B]

Agreed.

[A]

And that he actually had to take a page out of some of what they were doing. And really what it was was getting information, intent. We talk about leaders, intent, those sorts of things down to the individual soldier, Marine, sailor, you know, whatever it was. So that they knew, you know, in chaos, ambiguity, uncertainty, they knew what the mission was, they knew what the goal was. And over time, I think he said over a number of just a year or two or whatever, all of a sudden their operations just increased exponentially. But it was really, the decentralization and pushing decision making down to the far slow. It's easy to talk about that, right? Yeah. Hear it all the time. I'll push it down lowest level. That's fine. Yeah. But you also got to understand there's risk to that. Yeah, you're pushing it down a lower level. People are going to make mistakes. You have to be tolerant of those mistakes and treat them like teachable moments. A lot of people don't have the patience for that. If I told you Burnley, man, it's okay. I'm expecting you're gonna make some mistakes, blah, blah, blah. And then you do. And then I jump on your ass. Yeah. You're gonna go, well, he said one thing, and then all of a sudden, I've lost you. Yeah, I'm freaking done. The other book called the Invisible Gorilla, it's been a long time since I've read.

[B]

I don't know this one.

[A]

Yeah, man, it's pretty cool. It's a short read, too. It's not real large, but it's. It explains a lot of the things, at least for me. And it lives a lot of case examples. We've all seen the. Probably that video where that gorilla. When they're all tossing the ball.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The ball. And the gorilla goes through. Some people see it and some people don't. Yeah, right. I'm one of those people who didn't see it.

[B]

Yeah, I was as well.

[A]

Yep. And there it is, plain as day. And so it talks about how your mind works, what you're. It explains a lot why, you know, people turn left in front of motorcycles and they tell you, man, I never saw them, even though they got a big light on and they're right there because they truly didn't see them because of their focus or their mindset or what. I mean, it. For me, it kind of gave me some insight as to. As to how mistakes or how things can be made. That. Love that. It's a fascinating book.

[B]

I love it. In the Invisible Gorilla.

[A]

The Invisible Gorilla across it. And I thought, man, this is.

[B]

Well, I heard of that one.

[A]

This explains a lot.

[B]

And that it just proves that, you know, we can all take something out of any resource, good or bad or indifferent, old or new. It's. I. I love that. I love that. And I'm going to lean on the McChrystal a little bit because I have some quotes. I pulled it up here because I think you might have been the third or the fourth person to recommend that book. So I can easily say on this podcast, that book is the one that's been recommended the most, but something that McChrystal said, and I love it because you talk about empowerment and delegation and decentralizing, you know, power, if you will, is. He says the eyes on, hands off approach, which is awesome because, you know, we talk about hands off, but eyes on is okay. It's okay to be aware of what your team is doing, but, you know, if you're truly going to delegate and empower others, make good decisions, your hands got to be off. You know, be aware, hands off. And then the other thing that he said, which was great, was he says, moving from a culture of who needs to know to who doesn't know, that we must tell. Now, that one was just awesome.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

It's about proactive decision making, leadership, and not being passive. And let's go. I love that.

[A]

I do, too, man. I mean, he talks about being the guard. I think it's the gardener, you know, where you're. You're cultivating. And he's got a couple, I think a couple TED talks.

[B]

Yes, he does.

[A]

Yes, he does. That are really good and really entertaining, too. Right. About his kind of. His leadership journey, too. Yeah. But, yeah, he's a amazing speaker. I guess he's doing a lot in the corporate world. And. Yeah, we've got a guy here, actually, who's, I think, a nephew of his or whatever. And so I hope to meet the guy one time, but I. I really. I've gone back and. And through that book a number of times and find things that I missed.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yep. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So. All right, Chief. Well, I do want to thank you for your time. Before I let you go, we have to go to the leadership challenge, because that's how we're here today. Hey, Chief Tubs challenge you to be the guest on the show. And I'm glad he did. We're able to have this conversation about the leadership journey. Is there someone that you would recommend that we reach out to to help further this conversation on leadership?

[A]

Yeah, no, that there is. In fact, he's a. An individual that I look up to as well. And he's got a really interesting story where he didn't really come from operations as we normally they would, but it's done an amazing job. And his name is Mark Niemeyer. I don't know if you've talked with Mark, but he's the Boise fire chief.

[B]

Oh, is he really? Okay.

[A]

Mark is also the president of the Western Fire Chiefs Association. And so Mark, I think, is a meridian before that, before he went to Boise. He's about to retire, so you probably need to get him in the next two or three months. All right.

[B]

Challenge it out.

[A]

And I can certainly make the introduction, but Mark is seen. I mean, the troops love him. He came in there again with. To another fire department that needed some culture adjustment. He's very mission focused. He gets the mission driven culture stuff, and he lives it. And the troops, you know, love that. I've seen Mark present in ways, man. I really admire the guy. He's a. It's funny. He nominated me for fire. What was it? Career Fire Chief of the Year. I don't know. A couple years ago with the ifc, he freaking got it. I found out. I was like, man, who did that? I was like, dude, that's not such a man. Come on. Really? Well, he just nominated somebody else out of Utah who got it. It's like, man, Mark's the guy that should be recognizing and, And. And he really is, I think, the chief of the year, the decade or whatever. I. I think Mark, his honesty, transparency, he's vulnerable. And he's a big dude, too. He's a cowboy. So he's not a guy you'd look at and think of, man. He's no soft guy, but, man, a guy I really admire and I. I think you would love talking with him. Awesome. I think.

[B]

I appreciate it.

[A]

Give you a perspective that maybe others have not.

[B]

Well, that's what it's all about, about perspective, adding to it, spreading the word, having everyone listen in, tune in, resonate with what they can. So thank you so much. I'll reach out to Chief Niemeyer and let him know he's leadership challenged by Chief fantasy.

[A]

Yeah, man.

[B]

Thank you. Before we close, Chief, lasting leadership thoughts you want the listeners to walk away with today?

[A]

Well, you know, I think we talked about it. It's. You know, life is a journey, but I think leadership, you know, that is a journey within you. If you're a young firefighter and you've never really, you know, thought much about it or you think it's not something you need. Trust me, if you. Even if it's. And how many times have we done this, man? I just, you know, I'd like to retire as a captain. That's as far as I want to go. That looked like a good job. That's all of our plans, right? I didn't plan on sitting here. Trust me, being the fire chief was the last thing on my mind. That was not a goal that was remotely. Things just kind of happened. But I think it's that. That journey, you know, it. The fire service, right? You're in the fire station with four people ap. Whatever it is, man, it's the relationships you have. Those are things that are going to bond us, right, forever. If you want, you know, to, you know, move up in your career and have more influence. Because that's what leadership is ultimately, right, Is influence. You want that to be positive influence and change people's lives and help. Because I think we get into this business because we genuinely want to help you people. Well, helping our fellow firefighters and others can be a part of that menu. And if you're a department that doesn't have, you know, the resources to put people, you know, to class or bring stuff in, you can still encourage people, you know, to read books. You can go to YouTube, you can go to Ted. I mean, there's a number of things online that the. The folks nowadays more rather grom to and have those conversations around the kitchen table, you know, doesn't have to always be serious. I mean, very rarely were they serious conversations when I was at the kitchen table.

[B]

True.

[A]

But, you know, you got somebody that served maybe in the military on your crew or this passing through in overtime, you're asking them about, you know, how did they. Man, we hire a lot of people from the military because, man, when I bring them in, I know, you know, that they. If I ask him, tell me a little bit about your core values, men, they'll rattle that off. I bring somebody else in that maybe spent three years on an ambulance, they may not even know what a value is. And I have to explain to them what that is. I think we have a lot to. To learn from those that have served in our military and the leadership lessons they've learned along the way as well. I'm thirsty for it, man. I'm hungry, man. I'm like, for anything. Leadership.

[B]

Well, that's. That's what's so inspiring, Chief, because you being the fire chief and you said early on you got a few years left, but to say it, you know, near the end, you're still hu. I mean, I think that's what we want and look for in a leader. Someone that's not saying, you know, I'm almost done. It's. Yeah, I may be almost done, but I'm still learning, I'm still leading. And, you know, I'm going to continue to bring up others along the way because although I'm almost retired, I'm, you know, the journey doesn't end.

[A]

It's so much fun too, because it takes you in different directions. Right? I've been to FDNY and sat through some of the leaders stuff. I mean, I would have never dreamed that again. Back in the early 2000s, I jump on this. Well, even before that, right. That I jump on this journey and yeah, it lead here. I still, man, I still love the job. I still love firefighters, man. It's just hard to imagine, I think, being retired. So here's. Here's the thing to you, yes. In five years, man, I'm. I'm drooling and I'm. I'm still, you know, I'm walking with limp. It's okay to tell me, hey, listen, Brian, it's okay to retire now.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Someone's gonna have to tell the old man.

[B]

Someone's gonna have to. Someone's gonna have to. I'll reach out to you for sure and check up on you, but I'm sure, obviously all the people that you're with around you will. Will tell you the same. But as long as you're still enjoying it, you know, don't walk away yet.

[A]

So I'm with you, man.

[B]

Awesome. Let me close this. Thank you for tuning in today to the kitchen table. We truly hope you found this time valuable. We hope we've inspired you to take action, to lead and to spread the leadership conversation. Until next time, be safe, be intentional, stay curious.