Podcast Summary: Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table
Episode 79: Tim Rogers (Battalion Chief, ret.) & Greg Elmore (Senior Master Sergeant, ret.) – "Leading is your Job no Matter What your Job is"
Host: Berlin Maza
Date: September 19, 2025
Overview
This episode explores the universal nature of leadership, offering insights from two seasoned leaders: Tim Rogers (retired Battalion Chief, Charlotte Fire Department) and Greg Elmore (retired USAF Senior Master Sergeant & former Harbor Freight VP). Host Berlin Maza guides a nuanced discussion on leadership’s applicability across ranks and industries, mentorship, organizational development, training, and the importance of humility and perspective—underscoring that leadership is everyone’s responsibility, independent of title or tenure.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Leadership Beyond Boundaries: The Importance of Perspective
- Tim Rogers emphasized learning from other fields:
“Not living in my own little world, but looking around and seeing what’s going on in other worlds...That’s just part of leadership growth, is not being afraid to look at the military, look at business and explore…pick up some tips, some lessons to grow.” (04:41) - The significance of looking at turnover rates and employee satisfaction in other organizations (e.g., Patagonia’s low turnover) as a means to adopt best practices. (06:00)
2. Mentorship: The Pivot Point in Leadership Growth
- Greg Elmore:
“I was blessed to stumble upon [a mentor] early on in my career…and that really changed my trajectory in the military… The most important thing you can do in your career is go find you a great mentor, someone that can give you candid, hard feedback.” (08:49, 09:42) - Both guests stress the importance of remaining lifelong students of leadership.
3. Early Development & The Value of Formalized Training
- Rogers recounted his organic leadership journey, starting as a mountaineering guide, highlighting responsibility at a young age and the need to “do it with all your might." (13:08)
- Advocated for integrating sociology and psychology into officer development, not just tactical skills (15:46):
“Find and take a good sociology class because you’re leading groups of people.” - Notably, Charlotte’s Officer Candidate School incorporated management, organizational theory, and people skills—rare among fire departments (18:44).
4. From Knowing to Doing: The Application of Knowledge
- Elmore:
“You can have a great formal training program, but what you’ve got to do is as a leader, make sure…you’re having conversations on how to apply that training in the workplace…If the leader…is not helping them to learn how to apply that learning, really what you’ve done is wasted your time.” (22:18) - Leadership development doesn’t end with the classroom; regular feedback and real-world application are essential (28:07).
- The concept of everyone being a coach (Don Shula’s “Everyone’s a Coach”) was highlighted as a way to institutionalize feedback and growth. (28:07)
5. Humility, Vulnerability, and Honest Feedback
- Being open to feedback and creating a psychologically safe culture is fundamental.
- Rogers:
“I would like to attend an AAR one day that says, you know, we stunk. Here’s how we can fix the stink, and then move forward…A constancy of purpose mentality.” (33:28-34:07) - Lead with humility: admit mistakes, seek criticism, and treat people with respect (31:29).
6. Leadership is Influence at Every Level—Not Just the Top
- Leadership opportunities exist in every position, not just formal titles.
- Rogers:
“If a firefighter steps up, no matter where they are in their career, and starts demonstrating good practices…that just has an influence on everybody.” (35:32) - Elmore:
“You can step in immediately…The way you carry yourself…the way you present yourself when you’re in your uniform…you’re sending a message and you’re influencing others.” (38:39) - Organizations often preach “no rank in leadership,” but need to back it up with empowered actions and development opportunities. (42:16)
7. The Need for Robust Leadership Training
- Both guests advocate robust, ongoing officer training, paralleling the time and investment put into recruit schools (45:02).
- It's never too early for leaders at all levels to prepare for higher responsibility.
- Elmore:
“If you’re on the last five years of your career and just learning to be an executive, you’re years behind already.” (51:18)
8. Talent Acquisition, Retention & Inspirational Leadership
- Talent acquisition is more than recruiting—it's hiring the right people and creating such a positive environment “that it’s painful for someone to leave.” (51:44, 53:29)
- Rogers:
"We need to start hiring people that aren’t afraid to go to the person with poopy in their drawers at 3 a.m.” (56:28)
A blunt but telling comment about seeking the right attitude for the job. - Leaders must inspire, even if it means leveraging the strengths of others on their team.
“If you’re not [inspirational], admit it, and find somebody who is and use them.” (59:40)
9. Systems Thinking and Organizational Ecology
- Organizations are ecosystems; small breakdowns affect the whole. Is your culture and leadership development happening at every level, or just at the top? (60:43)
- Addressing challenges requires a systematic, not just technical, fix—a recurring theme. (63:16)
10. Current & Future Leadership Challenges
- Major issues: adapting to politics, budget cuts, and shifting societal demands.
“Are we reaching out to business leaders to learn how to navigate the political climate with change and budget slashing?” (72:30) - The answer? Facing brutal facts (Stockdale Paradox, "Good to Great"), looking forward, and not being complacent—qualities essential for fire service and beyond. (74:20)
11. Lasting Lessons & Reflections
- Greg Elmore:
"Don’t become complacent. Don’t let the business get in the way of your passion for leadership…Find a mentor, become a student, remain passionate.” (79:37) - Tim Rogers:
Stressed the importance of relationships and informal interaction outside of work:
“As Greg said, you become a little complacent…One thing I really would have worked on harder is more personable, more involved in life.” (81:49) - Both recommend continuing to learn, reading widely (see Recommended Books below), and seeking honest self-reflection.
Notable Quotes & Moments
- "Not living in my own little world, but looking around…is just part of leadership growth." — Tim Rogers [04:41]
- "As I grew up the organization…one thing I found myself not doing…ongoing feedback…I just assumed they were solid. But…they’re always going to need you and you’re always going to need them." — Greg Elmore [79:37]
- "If you’re not [inspirational], admit it and find somebody who is and use them." — Tim Rogers [59:40]
- "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might." — Tim Rogers [16:30, 94:08]
- "Face the brutal facts…be able to look into the future, look to where the puck's going, not to where it is." — Greg Elmore [74:20]
- "Nobody likes average...Tell me who likes average?" — Tim Rogers [68:09]
- "Problems are not like wine; they don’t get better with age." — Tim Rogers [78:31]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- Introduction of Guests: 00:48–03:53
- The Importance of Perspective in Leadership: 04:41–07:24
- Mentorship’s Role in Growth: 08:49–11:22
- Formal Officer Development & Sociology in Leadership: 13:08–18:44
- Translating Training into Workplace Action: 22:18–28:07
- Culture of Coaching & Feedback: 28:07–34:07
- Leadership at Every Level: 35:32–42:16
- Officer Development Needs: 45:02–51:18
- Talent Acquisition, Retention & Inspiration: 51:44–59:40
- Systems Thinking for Organizations: 60:43–64:29
- Current & Future Challenges: 64:29–72:31
- Facing Reality & Adapting: 74:20–78:31
- Advice to Younger Selves: 79:37–85:05
- Recommended Books: 86:22–91:11
- Closing Thoughts: 93:32–95:07
Recommended Books
- "It’s Not How Good You Are, But How Good You Want To Be" – Paul Arden (Greg Elmore, [86:22])
- "Let My People Go Surfing" – Yvon Chouinard (Tim Rogers, [87:43])
- "How the Mighty Fall" – Jim Collins (Tim Rogers, [87:43])
- "Good to Great" – Jim Collins (Stockdale Paradox, referenced by Elmore [74:20])
Action Items & Takeaways
- Seek out and nurture mentorship relationships early and throughout your career.
- Embrace ongoing development; leadership learning doesn’t end with promotion or a class.
- Apply newly learned knowledge by initiating workplace conversations and coaching.
- Advocate for training curricula that include sociology, psychology, and leadership theory, not just technical skills.
- Foster a culture of candor—accept and seek feedback, admit mistakes, and be humble.
- Remember, leadership is about influence, not rank—model behaviors and inspire at every level.
- Be intentional: care genuinely for people and your organization.
- Leaders should prepare for higher responsibility early—it’s never “too soon” to learn.
- Lead with systems thinking: recognize the interconnectedness within your organization.
- Face facts and accept reality to navigate rapid changes and unexpected challenges.
Final Leadership Thoughts
- Greg Elmore:
"Just care about your people, care about your organization, genuinely love them...That’s what you’ll be proud of in life." (93:32) - Tim Rogers:
“Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might. When you retire…be able to look back and say, I did okay. I gave it all my might.” (94:08) - Host Berlin Maza: “Move the needle. You don’t have to move mountains.” (95:07)