Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table

Episode 80: Shane Smith, Deputy Chief – Leading through Adversity
Host: Berlin Maza
Guest: Shane Smith, Deputy Fire Chief
Date: September 25, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode centers on "Leading through Adversity," with Deputy Chief Shane Smith sharing candid reflections on his evolving leadership journey, the impact of humility and vulnerability, lessons from personal and professional challenges, and insights for fostering authentic leadership in the fire service and beyond. Smith offers wisdom gained from decades in emergency services, including responding to national disasters, managing personal loss, and navigating organizational culture.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Embracing Change and Stepping into Opportunity

• Shane Smith recounts his "retirement" transition, describing how he left South King County, WA, without a job lined up and coincidentally found his next opportunity in his hometown of Twin Falls, ID.
  • “Sometimes you don’t know the opportunities that are out there unless you put yourself in a position to take part.” — Smith, [07:05]
• Importance of stepping out of comfort zones:
  • “Even though the position and title is the same, here I am again, stepping out of my comfort zone… It’s definitely stepping out again.” — Smith, [09:16]
• Berlin emphasizes the leadership message: get out of your comfort zone to discover new possibilities.

2. Leadership as Service, Not Rank

• Smith shares his philosophy:
  • “Leadership is not rank at all… The only promotions I ever put in for were the contractual promotional processes for lieutenant and captain. The rest were opportunities through people believing in me… It’s an opportunity to serve people and have a greater impact.” — Smith, [11:45]
• He reflects on being shaped more by poor leadership than good and the critical role of humility:
  • “Humility is without a doubt the cornerstone to build your foundation on. If you’re not humble… you’re in it for the wrong reason.” — Smith, [14:07]

3. Learning from Failure and Vulnerability

• Mistakes and failures are central to Smith’s leadership ethos:
  • “I could talk about a bunch of careers of mistakes and failures if that’s what you want to hear… That’s what it’s about. Leaders are human. We need to embrace that and let others know the people that we lead that failure is part of the process.” — Smith, [16:12]
  • “Some failures potentially could have impacted people in a negative way...as you mature, I think, guides you in humility.” — Smith, [17:27]

4. Extreme Ownership and Transparency

• Smith discusses conveying vulnerability at higher ranks:
  • “It’s not comfortable… but for me, it’s always been real, authentic, open, transparent communication… Owning your mistakes, own everything in your world.” — Smith, [19:51]
  • “You actually get more respect. People understand that you’re authentic… they’re more apt to follow you because you’re owning everything in your world.” — Smith, [20:36]
• The importance of ‘extreme ownership,’ but notes it must be adopted by the whole team, not just individuals. [21:51–24:24]

5. The Value of Reflection

• Berlin’s pre-show ‘script’ led Smith to meaningful self-reflection:
  • "Reflecting back and looking at why am I the way I am? Why do I lead the way I lead? Your assignment kind of gave me that opportunity. So very valuable.” — Smith, [24:24]
• Encourages leaders not to wait until late in their careers to reflect on purpose and philosophy:
  • “Why does it have to be so late in your career… I imagine a time where that two-year firefighter is thinking about their purpose and how they’re going to influence the next 30 years…” — Maza, [27:53]

6. Challenges in Leadership Development in the Fire Service

• Both agree the fire service does a poor job of preparing people for true leadership (beyond certifications).
  • “We don’t get into mindfulness. We don’t get into true, authentic leadership… We absolutely should be planting those seeds [of leadership] early.” — Smith, [29:17]
• Discuss barriers to instituting leadership training for all ranks, including ego-driven leaders, budgets, organizational inertia, and lack of mentorship.
• The need for leaders at the top to model authentic, servant leadership. [33:48–36:45]

7. Prioritizing Leadership Development as a Chief

• Smith outlines his plan: listen, learn the local culture, identify strengths and weaknesses, and prioritize leadership/servant-leadership for all members.
  • “First and foremost, I’m going to be a student—listening and learning that culture… to see where strengths and weaknesses are, and then prioritize.” — Smith, [37:14]

8. Humility in Instruction

• Essential qualities of an effective fire service instructor:
  • “It goes back to humility… be humble… It’s about investing 100% into the students, making sure they get what they paid for… We weren’t any better than them.” — Smith, [41:58]
• Lead by example, never cut short students’ learning time, and always share mistakes as teaching moments.

9. Setting Standards and Improving the System

• Fire service often fails both instructors and students by relying too heavily on certifications rather than true mentorship:
  • “We do a terrible job at setting instructors up for success… we don’t teach the mindset and responsibility you have as an instructor.” — Smith, [51:12]
• Leaders must emphasize “how can we do it better?” after every training or event. — [51:47–52:22]

10. Actionable Advice for Young Leaders

• Smith’s #1 advice:
  • “Put yourself out there, open yourself up. Humility is number one… Try to define your purpose… even if you don’t want to. What is your purpose in the fire service?” — Smith, [52:51]
• Reflecting reveals much about yourself you may not already know.

11. Pivotal Adversity and Lessons Learned (Smith’s 2014)

• 2014 was a defining year for Smith—promoted to lieutenant, deployment to OSO landslide, massive personal loss (brother’s suicide and father-in-law’s death), and a near-fatal river rescue incident:
  • “It was not only me witnessing my own actions on other people, it was witnessing other people’s actions for me and my family and… being a victim of groupthink… I almost got myself killed and my firefighter killed.” — Smith, [66:58]
• These layered experiences taught him about the power of relationships, the importance of speaking up, the reality of groupthink, and how witnessing and receiving care deeply shaped his leadership style.

12. Transferring Hard-Won Wisdom to New Leaders

• The difficulty in “bottling up” pivotal moments for the benefit of young or new leaders.
  • “How do you bottle that up and let it resonate with someone else beginning their leadership journey? I have no idea… some of that is what we’re missing.” — Smith, [70:39]

13. Book Recommendation

• Extreme Ownership — Jocko Willink & Leif Babin
  • “It taught me something I’d never put much thought to about owning your world, owning everything in your world… You got to own it and nobody’s perfect.” — Smith, [72:52]

14. Enduring Leadership Advice

• Berlin asks for Smith’s closing message:
  • “Being humble and okay with you not being perfect… is strength. Be authentic, be real, be an open book, be transparent, communicate often… In time, you’ll see the fruit of your labor… Be authentic.” — Smith, [77:07]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On True Success:
  "Give everybody 100% of yourself, make them better than you ever were… you can walk away feeling like you did a good job." — Smith, [33:53]
• On Vulnerability as a Chief:
  "It's not comfortable. But for me, it's always been real… authentic, open, transparent communication… Owning your mistakes, own everything in your world." — Smith, [19:49]
• On Reflection:
  "Reflecting back and looking at why am I the way I am? Why do I lead the way I lead? … So very valuable." — Smith, [24:24]
• On the Importance of Speaking Up (After 2014 Rescue Incident):
  "I did not trust my gut. I didn’t speak up to the veterans… I almost got myself killed and my firefighter killed… just huge, huge lessons learned for me over that time." — Smith, [66:40]
• On Bottling Wisdom:
  "How do you bottle that up and let it resonate with someone else… I have no idea." — Smith, [70:39]
• On Humility and Leading by Example:
  "Being humble and okay with you not being perfect. In other words, suppressing your insecurities is strength… Be authentic." — Smith, [77:07]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:43] — Shane Smith discusses his transition from South King to Twin Falls
• [07:05] — Lesson: Opportunities and stepping out of comfort zones
• [11:45] — Leadership as service, not title or rank
• [14:07] — Humility is foundational for authentic leadership
• [16:12] — Mistakes, vulnerability, and the necessity of failure
• [19:49] — On owning mistakes as a chief
• [24:24] — The value of reflection and knowing your purpose
• [29:17] — The fire service’s shortcomings in leadership development
• [33:53] — Why and how to support others’ leadership growth
• [41:58] — Humility in the training division and instruction
• [52:51] — Single best advice for young leaders
• [54:58] — The pivotal events of 2014 and their impact
• [66:40] — “Wake-up call” incidents and lessons learned
• [72:52] — Book recommendation: Extreme Ownership
• [77:07] — Parting thoughts on authenticity and humility

Listener Takeaways

• Authentic leadership is built on humility, vulnerability, and owning both mistakes and successes.
• Reflect early and often on your purpose; don’t wait until later in your career.
• Leadership and influence are not tied to rank—every member can lead.
• “Extreme ownership” requires buy-in from all team members, but your own accountability must never be compromised.
• Seek to invest fully in others; your legacy as a leader is the people you help grow and the culture you shape.
• Facing adversity can be transformative; learning from hard experiences helps cultivate empathy and resilience in leadership.
• Prioritize relationship-building, honest self-reflection, and continual learning throughout your career.

Recommended Action:
Be intentional about developing your own leadership creed and standards; seek out opportunities to serve, reflect, and mentor; and remember, being authentic is the most impactful trait a leader can possess.