Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table

Ep. 82: Nicholas Papa, Deputy Chief – Service Above Self

Host: Berlin Maza
Date: October 10, 2025

Main Theme / Purpose

The episode centers on "Service Above Self," exploring leadership philosophies and fire service culture with Deputy Chief Nicholas Papa of the New Britain Fire Department, Connecticut. Papa, an accomplished author and instructor within the fire service, discusses how leadership at every level, especially company officers, affects organizational performance, morale, and culture. The conversation delves into his career journey, lessons in leadership, the importance of preparation and humility, and critical tactical concepts like coordinated ventilation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Background and Career Path

• Papa introduces himself (03:15), emphasizing the importance of a personal life outside the firehouse and a healthy work-life balance:
  • Married, two kids, two black labs. Enjoys outdoor activities and rock climbing with his daughter.
  • Practicing Brazilian jiu-jitsu since 2016.
  • Highlights the value of “having outlets outside of the fire service.”

2. "There Are No Bad Companies, Only Bad Officers" – The Role of Leadership

• Papa adapts the Jocko Willink / military adage to fire service:

  “There are no bad fire companies, only bad company officers.” (04:14)

• Explains the concept:

  • The company officer sets the performance ceiling, regardless of individual talent on the crew.
  • Three-legged tripod of a good officer: Tactical competence, administrative skills, and house (personnel/culture) management (04:55).
  • Deficiencies in any leg hurt the team and the culture.

    “It doesn’t matter how good the privates are… the company officer is going to be that limiting factor.” (04:55)

• Peak performance, training, and team cohesion:

  • Synchs fire service to sports/music: “Nobody’s simply relying on game day as their means of preparation and developing themselves. The vast majority… is the training, it’s the practice. That’s how we get good.” (00:01)
  • Firefighting as the "ultimate team sport"—bonds are forged through shared hardship and persistent preparation.
  • Importance of building buy-in: “When you do hard things together, that's how those bonds wind up getting forged.” (00:55, and recurring)

3. Service to Community and Pride in Everyday Service

• Papa shares that the most gratifying moments are often day-to-day calls that improve people’s lives, not just dramatic emergencies:

  “...some of the most gratifying things… is just getting to improve the quality of somebody's life. ...We're the default. You know, when it doesn't fit into a box, they're like, I'll call the fire department, they'll figure it out.” (11:24)

  • Emphasizes the weight of public trust and the privilege to answer the call.

4. The Officer's "Triangle"—Beyond Tactics

• Host recounts the saying: “You can lose your life on the fire ground, but you can lose your career in the firehouse.” (13:01)
• Papa discusses balancing tactical, administrative, and intra-house (culture/personnel/conflict) skills—much of which new officers learn later:
  • Advice: Be patient with tech changes, especially for senior members; champion accountability while giving grace to those learning new skills (14:51).
  • Passion for operational readiness: “When the bell hits, you stop what you’re doing and you get your ass on the truck as quick as humanly possible.” (17:09)
  • Describes fostering pride and healthy competition (“Beaver Street Bandits” company patches) to boost morale and buy-in (20:00).

5. Lessons in Perception, Reputation, and the Bigger Fire Service Picture

• Papa reflects on youthful drive and how, as a young officer, focus on performance inadvertently created a negative perception department-wide (22:44; 28:28).

  “Perception is reality. ...I wasn't truly aware of how poorly I was being perceived across the board…”

• Maturation in leadership: Shifting focus to relationship-building, supporting all crews, playing the long game (“You have to be authentic too. You can't fake the funk on any of this, because firefighters will smell bullshit and phoniness a mile away.” 25:05).
• Gaining greater impact by stepping into training/admin/command roles—service above self involves embracing wider influence, even at the expense of beloved operational roles (29:06; 37:30).

6. Transition to Subject Matter Expert in Ventilation

• Papa details how he became an SME and writer on coordinated ventilation:
  • Accidental path, inspired by a lightbulb moment at a leadership course (44:26).
  • “One of my favorite quotes of all time is from T.E. Lawrence… The dreamers of the day are a dangerous force… they'll actually execute on their dreams and make it happen.” (40:36)
  • Turns mistakes and ignorance into motivation to educate his department, and ultimately, the nation (40:36).

7. The Evolution and Leadership Parallels of Ventilation – "Three Cs"

• Originally communication, coordination, and control (53:25). Evolved to:
  Communication, Control, Competency.

  • Coordination: Orchestrating critical tasks for a united tactical objective.
  • Communication: Foundation for both tactical execution and leadership relationships.
  • Control: Both operational (timing/resources) and personal (discipline, patience).
  • Competency: The fusion of knowledge, skills, experience.

  "Coordination… is orchestrating all these critical tasks… They all have to have purpose…" (53:49) "[Self-control]… requires a lot of restraint, that tactical patience." (58:12)

8. Major Misconceptions About Ventilation (Practical & Leadership Parallels)

• A key misconception: The timing of ventilation. Early studies led to a pendulum swing—some becoming anti-ventilation, which is not effective.
• Advocates for a balanced, critical-thinking approach:

  “Things on the fireground are rarely black and white. ...That's where the critical thinking comes into play and that's where that you have to have that, that basis of competency to make sense of all of this.” (59:54)

  • Details practical timing—ventilation coordinated precisely with suppression, not before or far after (71:12 onward).
  • Parallels in leadership: Overreactions (extremes) vs. nuanced, informed, and balanced approaches.

9. Influential Books and Recommendations

• Papa’s book:
  "Coordinating Ventilation: Supporting Extinguishment and Survivability" (Second Edition) – blends practical tactics and philosophy (41:32, 80:42, 59:12).

• Recommended leadership read:
  "Steal My Soldiers’ Hearts" by Col. David Hackworth (80:42).

  "By just playing the long game, being authentic and being service oriented towards his members, he got them from being... the worst performing regiment… to being the highest performing..." (82:37)

• Mentor/shout-out: Ret. Deputy Chief Lee Shapiro, Hartford Fire Dept., author of "An Insider’s Guide to Mentoring the Fire Officer." Described as practical, experience-driven, and personable. (83:44)

Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Preparation & Teamwork:

  "Nobody's simply relying on game day as their means of preparation... The vast majority of it is coming on the front end. It's the training, it's the practice. That's how we get good." – Papa (00:01)

• On Officer Impact:

  "It doesn't matter how good the privates are, ...the company officer is going to be that limiting factor." – Papa (04:55)

• On Culture:

  "You can lose your life on the fire ground, but you can lose your career in the firehouse." – Host (13:01)

• On Passion and Perception:

  "I wanted us to be the best...but the problem was, perception is reality. Right? And I wasn't truly aware of how poorly I was being perceived... Thinking long term… it’s not going to bode well for you." – Papa (22:44)

• On the Long Game:

  "It did not happen overnight...You've got to be patient and you have to be authentic too. You can't fake the funk on any of this, because...firefighters will smell bullshit and phoniness a mile away." – Papa (25:05)

• On Stepping Up:

  “Was I ready to hang up my black helmet and the air pack for good? Absolutely not...But bigger picture, my ultimate goal...was always to be a shift commander.” – Papa (29:06)

• On Leadership & Growth:

  "The most gratifying things that I've done...is just getting to improve the quality of somebody's life...we're the ones that they call...That's not to be taken lightly." – Papa (11:24)

• On Mistakes/Ambition:

  "If I'm into the job and I'm making these mistakes that are seemingly so fundamental...there's got to be tons of other people that are in the same boat." – Papa (44:26)

• On the Three Cs:

  "The hallmark of good leadership is the ability to communicate...to develop relationships, to get anything done… [plus] control and competency." – Papa (53:49+)

• On Playing the Long Game:

  “Be patient, play the long game...don't let your passion become overzealousness or get damaged relationships or allow you to not be present...enjoy the ride.” – Papa (88:48)

Notable Moments & Timestamps

• Bonding Through Adversity and Preparation – [00:01 - 02:00]
• Building Company Pride and Morale ("Beaver Street Bandits") – [20:00]
• Learning From Criticism and Evolving Leadership Style – [22:44]
• Pathway to Influence: From Engine to Shift Commander – [29:06]
• The Ventilation “Aha!” and Journey to Subject Matter Expert – [40:36, 44:26]
• Articulating the Three Cs for Ventilation & Leadership – [53:25 - 59:12]
• Practical Ventilation Timing – A Training Scenario – [71:12]
• Book Recommendations – [80:42]
• Mentorship and the Value of Experience-Based Guidance – [83:44]
• Lasting Leadership Message: Enjoy the Ride, Embrace the Moment – [88:48]

Action Items and Advice for Listeners

• For emerging/aspiring leaders:

  • Seek balance between tactical proficiency, administrative organization, and team culture.
  • Commit to “service above self”—widen your influence by stepping up.
  • Be patient, authentic, and play the long game in building relationships and credibility.
  • Share your mistakes so others can learn ("...make sure people don't repeat those same mistakes...." [51:56])
  • Read widely—study both tactical manuals and leadership/culture literature.

• For seasoned officers:

  • Be open and patient around technology and organizational change.
  • Don’t underestimate the administrative and conflict-management parts of your role.
  • Remember that supporting the people you supervise is "the real mission."

Timestamps Index for Easy Reference

• [00:01] — Importance of preparation/practice: “Firefighting is the ultimate team sport.”
• [03:15] — Papa’s personal background and perspective on work/life balance.
• [04:14] — "No bad companies, only bad officers" – origins and explanation.
• [14:51] — Managing tech change and skill development for officers.
• [22:44] — Lessons in perception, reputation, and evolving approach to leadership.
• [29:06] — The challenges and rewards of moving up in the organization.
• [37:30] — Embracing “service above self” as a leader and role model.
• [44:26] — Papa's journey to becoming a ventilation subject matter expert.
• [53:25] — The "Three Cs" – communication, control, and competency.
• [59:54] — Major misconception about ventilation: it’s all about timing and context, not a one-size-fits-all.
• [71:12] — Tactical scenario: timing, flow paths, and coordinated fire attack.
• [80:42] — Papa's recommended leadership reading: "Steal My Soldiers’ Hearts."
• [83:44] — Acknowledgment of mentor and leadership author, Lee Shapiro.
• [88:48] — Papa's closing leadership advice: Be patient, intentional, enjoy every phase of the job.

For more:

• Papa's book: Coordinating Ventilation: Supporting Extinguishment and Survivability (Second Edition)
• Papa’s mentor’s book: An Insider’s Guide to Mentoring the Fire Officer (Lee Shapiro)
• Leadership inspiration: Steal My Soldiers’ Hearts (Col. David Hackworth)

Use this summary as both a knowledge resource and inspiration for leadership development both inside and outside the fire service. The lessons on preparation, culture, continuous improvement, and “service above self” transcend tactical domains and are vital for any leader.